Friday, August 11, 2006
Towards Belfast’s Gaeltacht Quarter…
I’ve little time to blog at the moment, so I’ll just quickly note an excellent public debate at the Culturlann on Wednesday night, on the Gaeltacht Quarter. This is the suggestion, rising out of the Dutton Report that West Belfast seeks to become a more physical expression of the high level of local Irish speakers that are to be found there. The panel included Mairtin O’Muilleoir, Ian Parsley, Nelson McCausland, Sue Ward of the Tourist Board and Jake MacSiacais of Forbairt Feirste.
MacSiacais, who is likely to be one of the key drivers of the development was at pains to explain that this is was a tool for the development of the area as a tourist attraction as much a promotion of the language. He drew international comparisions saying ‘where in the world can you go and not know you are in Chinatown?’. The plan involves a very limited area of the lower Falls taking in the Cumman Cluain Ard and the Culturlann itself, and beefing up the visiblity of the language there.
Alliance party man Ian Parsley welcomed the plan, saying that creating a small centre of excellence, should be used to drive language development across Belfast, making reference to Bairbre de Bruin’s hope that the language would flourish well beyond West Belfast. He also believed the self help principle that has driven the Irish language movement was something that others could learn from, suggesting that “only the community will decide if a language will survive or not”.
Nelson McCausland noted that this project had been a good ten years in gestation over which time he had followed its development closely. He remarked that any such ambitious project will necessarily take a considerable time to come to fruition. His only word of caution was to seek its development in such a way that people outside the project’s primary constituency of interest would also benefit. Although he noted there was some small interest amongst individual Protestant learners most remain indifferent to the fortune of the language.
Sue Ward argued that the Tourist Board despite the peace process, there is still some concern over security and safety, and that these are the basic pre-requistes for a successful sell of Northern Ireland in general. It is getting better, but they are constantly on the look out for things to push that development even further. She cited Berlin where the tourists find it easy to discover various of heritages, but the product has to the be there in the first place. She warned however that they were not in business of ‘product’ development.
Excellently moderated in Irish by Fergus O’Hare with instanteous translation provided. Great to get along to an event where Irish is the lingua franca, and yet doesn’t exclude the non speakers. More of the same please!!
Mick Fealty @ 06:38 AM
Ní Gaeilgeoir mé
Nevertheless, investment in those people in Belfast who can actually speak the lingo, and who have a long tradition of visiting the Gaeltacht areas of the Irish Republic during the summer vocation is something to be welcomed.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 09:08 AMGood idea. The Chinatown comparison makes me think we should also possibly develop a Chinese Quarter and a Polish Quarter.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 09:13 AMHow do people in Shaw’s Road feel about this?
Very few people in the streets around the Culturlann are Irish speakers, so tourists might find the English being spoken disappointing.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 09:14 AMThe organic growth in Irish in Belfast is impressive, and is not being repeated in any other city in Ireland.
I’m not sure if a ‘quarter’ works though. I think we’re coming closer to developing the concept of English as a working language and Irish as a community langauge. How this fits with an actual geographical are being fenced off I don’t know.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 09:35 AM“The organic growth in Irish in Belfast is impressive, and is not being repeated in any other city in Ireland.”
Indeed, in every other city people have better things to be doing like learning things that might get you a better job etc. You’ll hear 50+ lanuages walking the streets of Dublin, but Irish Gaelic won’t be one of them.
As it happens one of my friends is a native Irish Gaelic speaker born and raised in Dublin (yes, such people exist). He says that the sound of people from N.I. speaking Irish gives him a headache as it’s so accented, mangled and hard to understand. Apparently it’s like native German speakers listening to Swiss-German.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 09:44 AMIt fits more with the Tourist Board development of a series of quarters within Belfast, University quarter, Titanic quarter, Cathedral quarter and so forth. Their next push is the Café Quarter and will be hoping to develop this as a new vibrant face of Belfast. The demographic of the Belfast tourist surprised me, it’s actually young, dynamic tourists who are the highest number coming here, hence the need to segment and market the tourism potential.
I was up in Culturlann last week for lunch, and its a very warm and welcoming place, serves good food, and good place to practice your cúpla focal.Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 09:44 AMKeith,
Irish still has dialects, so to people from Galway, Leinster Irish sounds funny, as does their Irish to people from Donegal etc. There is no eqivalent of a German speaker listening to a Swiss-German.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 09:47 AMI’m willing to bet there are more people in the Greater Belfast area with a greater functional knowledge of French as a 2nd language. Why oh why do I suspect there will not be bleating by the usual-suspect crowd of subsidy mongers for a ‘French quarter’?
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 09:51 AMThere are also more people with a functional knowledge of pubs than Cathedrals, Translink than the Titanic but to advance this logic further would make me sound as idiotic as Mr Rove.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 09:56 AMGaribaldy, I’m not an expert on this, but apparently the school curriculum in this country tends to soften the dialects so as to make the language easily understood by all, so that even native speakers are channeled into a mainstream form of the language but whatever is going on in N.I. is different. Anyone know more?
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 09:56 AMwhat do you call a chinese irishman ???????
PAT NOODLE
Great idea being proposed pity the NITB are useless and couldn’t promote diddly squat.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 10:01 AMYeah, Na, the simply vast amount of public money being a.) given to Cathedrals is something shocking & b.) you should then see what me, the bishop and the chapter get up to with it. Or perhaps, b*ll*cks again for your general directions.
A gaelic quarter in Belfast will be an utterly artificial prospect - that’s why there isn’t one at the moment, it’s unreal, it’s not, dear God, because of ‘oppression’ that there isn’t one, it’s because it has no basis in the actual Belfast that exists - and will be ‘capable’ of coming into being only through typicaly wasteful public subventions. If actual factual people really feel so deeply about this, let them go and waste, sorry, spend their own money. No doubt as there are so many people calling out for this particular cultural liberation, raising the funds will be a piece of p*ss.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 10:08 AM“Garibaldy, I’m not an expert on this, but apparently the school curriculum in this country tends to soften the dialects so as to make the language easily understood by all, so that even native speakers are channeled into a mainstream form of the language but whatever is going on in N.I. is different. Anyone know more?”
I’d image that the Gaelige taught in the South would be the offical dialect, whatever they use in the Irish Government. I can’t remember what this was based on. Ulster Irish is different, and has always been different.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 10:09 AMThere have been attempts to standardise parts of Irish, this is true. But the dialects and different ways of pronouncing words remain - for example, the way people ask how you are varies around the country.
Because of the way it survived in isloated areas and because it has never had a mass media, Irish was never homogonised to the extent that other languages in Europe were in the C19th and C20th. One of its strengths is in many respects this diversity as it makes it interesting for people to learn how things are said in other parts of the country.
Karl,
There is a Gaeltacht area already in Shaw’s Road, which would seem to me to be the sensible place to build a quarter around, but off the beaten tourist track.
Ulick,
Great joke.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 10:23 AMKarl Rove
Why oh why do I suspect there will not be bleating by the usual-suspect crowd of subsidy mongers for a ‘French quarter’?Most of Annadale Embankment looks like the French Quarter. At least that’s what I think the French flags are for…
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 10:33 AM…the suggestion, rising out of the Dutton Report that West Belfast seeks to become a more physical expression of the high level of local Irish speakers that are to be found there…
IMO. this represents yet another example of how Sinn Fein/the Republican Movement are disingenuous in their support / use of otherwise bona fide public interests, purely for their own political advantage. It is blindingly obvious that the Shinners are shallow and disingenuous in their support. Their only interest in the Irish language is for polical gain. This also applies for the Hunger Strike commemorations and the Antrim GAA fiasco.
Sinn Fein – Shallow and shameless.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 11:12 AMWhy oh why do I suspect there will not be bleating by the usual-suspect crowd of subsidy mongers for a ‘French quarter’?
i guess because, unlike Gaelic, French isn’t an indigenous (and endangered) language in Ireland.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 11:27 AMHidden Gem,
You did read the Dutton report?
Sorry, of course you didn’t.
The report was commissioned by DCAL and the contributors are on pages 74, 75, 76. Hardly a shallow shameless shinner amongst the lot of them.
But don’t let a small thing like the facts spoil a good rant.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 11:29 AMExcellent idea! if this comes to pass then I shall look forward to the establishment of a ‘Latin Quarter’ for all those Latin speakers in Helen’s Bay.
Ecce! In pictura est puella, nomine Flavia! etc.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 12:16 PMna,
I will disregard you pitiful attempt at sarcasm. Maybe this reflects an unwillingness or inability to address the valid point I make, namely that …the suggestion, rising out of the Dutton Report that West Belfast seeks to become a more physical expression of the high level of local Irish speakers that are to be found there. is generated NOT by a genuine and heart felt appreciation for the Irish language but rather is done in anticipation of political advantage on the part of Sinn Fein.
To respond to the suggestion highlighted in the title of this thread hardly requires an in depth knowledge of the report. However it does support the widely held view among non Provo-supporting republicans that Sinn Fein is in deed shallow and shameless.
There is a huge stench of hypocrisy surrounding President Gerry when he attempts to condescendingly speak about our shared heritage. Clearly this wasn’t on his mind when he was lending his support to those treasonous Irish men who took it on themselves to murder their fellow countrymen, women and children.
My point and criticism is a valid one. The support by Sinn Fein for the Irish language is for political gain and this also applies for the Hunger Strike commemorations and the Antrim GAA fiasco. If they were genuine in their support, they would distance themselves from a movement which should be allowed to remain apolitical.
Sinn Fein – Shallow and shameless.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 12:27 PMHG,
What are you wittering on about? A broad panel discussion based on the DCAL commissioned Dutton report, is indicative that Sinn Féin are using the Irish language for political gain?
You want Sinn Féin to support the Irish language by not getting involved in its promotion or multi-organisation/political debates on its promotion. To be frank, that is ridiculous.
Sorry yours don’t seem valid points to me but shallow, shameless and completely detached from reality.
Was Ian Parsley, Nelson McCausland and Sue Ward’s (you did check who they were? of course not just like you’ve still not read thge Dutton report) contribution to endorsing the Dutton plan based on the same shameless promotion of SF?
I don’t know why I ask, you clearly don’t know or care how many people or organisations are involved in contributing to Dutton and supporting the outcome preferring to bang some nonsensical drum that allows you to repeat ad nauseum a adolescent catch phrase you’ve dreamt up.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 12:48 PM“Indeed, in every other city people have better things to be doing like learning things that might get you a better job etc.”
Worthwile contribution that one.
“He says that the sound of people from N.I. speaking Irish gives him a headache as it’s so accented, mangled and hard to understand”
One could say the same about any Dub’s English accent; accented, mangled and hard to understand. But we don’t, thankfully, because we’re not that narrow.
“I’d image that the Gaelige taught in the South would be the offical dialect”
Unlike English, there is non official dialect. Standardised Irish is grammnar and vocabulary based, this did change some apsects of the spoken language but there is no equivalent of ‘Queen’s English’.
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 12:49 PMOk Ok
I’m only stirring
I loved this exchange about “Trawlermen” (reg needed)
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1127832006
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 01:02 PMI met Mick at the debate and I was hoping he would post something on it to see what reaction there would be - and it’s not all that bad.
True there’s the usual Luddite response from the usual suspects. Keith M should really get out more and he should open his eyes and ears and he might find that people with Irish are too busy working in better jobs they’ve gained thanks to their overall llinguistic ability, aided by their early bilingualism, to be walking the streets of Dublin. Karl Rove - some of the public money you talk about DOES belong to Irish speakers. And if you take the census figures for the north, more than 161,000 profess to be Irish speakers which should have a bearing on public policy more than it seems to do heretofore.
Neither is this ‘spending’ public money - it’s an investment in regenerating an area which has been left to its own devices by officialdom. The amount invested in terms of time, effort, sheer genius by the Irish language community in getting to where they are today from where they were 35 years ago when the Shaw’s Road Gaeltacht were told not to send their children to an All Irish school on the pain of jail, the amount invested could never be matched by government. But they should begin to make a start. Because the Irish language is a positive aspect of west Belfast and as Miss Fitz points out, it gives people a point of entry at the Culturlann which is welcoming, friendly and an open house. I don’t hold with the myth that west Belfast is a cold place for Protestants, peddled by some, but there’s no-one who could ever level the charge of sectarianism against Cultúrlann McAdam O Fiaich. It’s a place where culture is celebrated and no culture is left out in the cold.
As such the Cultúrlann is the natural beating heart of the emerging Gaeltacht Quarter which is about re-imagining what a Gaeltacht will be for the 21st century and beyond, a space not necessarily confined by a border. The Shaw’s Road Gaeltacht may be outside the proposed quarter - as is the base for Lá - but it’s still part of the proposal. All Irish speakers in Belfast end up in the Culturlann and it’s natural that it would be the centre of the proposed development. I think that the GQ will be the liveliest quarter in Belfast and will confound the NITB whose attitude is baffling. (The NITB spokesperson was particularly poor and was put firmly in her place by Nelson McCausland. She claimed the NITB was only about promoting products - such as the Giant’s Causeway, Derry’s Walled City, St Patrick, Scenery and, curiously, the Titanic Quarter - that already existed and NOT developing the likes of the Gaeltacht Quarter. The DUP councillor pointed out that the business of promoting the North was a matter for tourism Ireland and that the NITB should be about developing products such as the GQ - and, it was mooted, a possible corollary in the Shankill to promote the Ulster Scots identity.If the DUP don’t find the GQ to be a threat - and that was my reading of Nelson’s contribution (interesting isn’t that he turned up for this debate, featuring one former SF councillor and another, a former blanket man, when Peter Robinson pulled out of a debate when he would have to share a platform with two from the UUP at the West Belfast Talks Back event!) - if the DUP don’t find the GQ a threat, then I don’t see how some of their fellow travellers here should be disparaging of it.
It’s going to happen, get used to it and bain sult as!
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 01:04 PMcarlos “One could say the same about any Dub’s English accent; accented, mangled and hard to understand. But we don’t, thankfully, because we’re not that narrow.”
Speak for yourself, I constantly point out the linguistic horrors of the Dub accent to my friends. Youse hear dat?
Posted by on Aug 11, 2006 @ 01:07 PM
