Friday, December 16, 2005
The more we think we know..
What Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, and many others, previously didn’t know apparently became slightly less unknown today, as Sinn F�in’s former Head of Administration in the Assembly admitted to RT�’s Charlie Bird that he was recruited as an agent for the British government[RealPlayer] in the 1980s - interestingly the camera focuses on marks on the back of Denis Donaldson’s hand at one point. Charlie Bird explains the circumstances of the prepared statement, but little else, here[RealPlayer]. The BBC have the transcript of that statement, and Newsnight led with a report in tonight’s programme[I’ll update when available] and asked both SF and the NIO for someone to interview.. neither had anyone available for comment.
Pete Baker @ 10:53 PM
I wrote a few days ago that this whole affair tells us that the northern state is fundamentally undemocratic and unjust and should be abandoned by all reasonable people on these islands. My position was dismissed as silly.
Donaldson’s admission tells us that the democratically elected government of Northern Ireland was brought down by nefarious actors who did not like the way the people had chosen to be governed.
We now need to know just who these people are and what will be their fate. My guess is that the British government were fully in the know and the PSNI and Special Branch, including Hugh Orde were merely carrying out the orders of government superiors, both elected and unelected.
It’s time for the British government and their subversive agents to leave us in peace to govern ourselves with dignity and respect.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 04:18 AMit’s time for the SDLP to withdraw from the policing boards.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 04:51 AMAny Irish person who collaborates with SS/RUC/psno after this revelation must be an ‘Uncle Tom’. It is absolutely essential for the sdlp to withdraw from ‘policing’ boards. In fact it’s time for the disbandment of SS/RUC/psno as they are in essence a Unionist Terrorist gang who masquarade as police in the occupied zone. As for Donaldson? Time to get out of Dodge, buddy.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 05:13 AMI wouldn’t even start to try to apportion guilt on this one, or suggest actions for the SDLP or anyone else. We are all being made to look like jack asses and trusting someone is not a sin but abusing trust is.
What we know for sure is the actions of the PSNI brought down the government here and that a British agent was involved. Other claims of spy rings may or may not have substance and who knows what framework the PSNI was working under or what intelligence it thought it had real or fabricated? Or even are there other agents involved? Everyone is smeared by innuendo as there is no truth simply supposition.
This incident could not be more serious. It brought down the elected government here. It undermines the PSNI or brings into question their voracity.
Rather than scoring minor points off each other we should all concentrate our fire on the British Government. We need the truth for only then can we address any changes that need to be made.
To Hain and Blair I would say, the actions of the agents of your government brought down a democratically elected government we demand to know why. As you have both acted in a manner that seeks to mislead we must assume that this is not merely the actions of agents but government policy. Either through ineptitude or policy your government has deliberately thwarted the democratic wishes of the people; you cannot be trusted and should take the responsibility and resign.
THERE MUST BE AN ENQUIRY.
Also we need to progress towards a re-established devolved administration.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 06:24 AMi think Trimble once said that the whole incident could be bigger than Nixon’s Watergate.
His comments seem to be ringing truer each day.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 07:26 AMDonaldson’s statement isn’t exactly comprehensive… is he saving it for An Phoblacht?
If it’s true that elements of the state - with or without Blair’s knowledge - subverted devolved power, this could cause Blair more trouble than Iraq.
It also begs the question of what else Donaldson did for the securocrats during the past 20 years?
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 08:48 AM(Irish) Republicans, dontcha just love ‘em? Funnier than ‘The Onion’ by far.
Just while I draw breath and stop laughing for a second at the bould boys of Erin, Dualta old son, I was impressed by your intolerance of ‘nefarious actors’, as set out above. Leaving to one side your wonderfully hammy Victorian turn of phrase, can we tease out who and what you consider to be ‘nefarious’? Are gangsters, murderers etc nefarious? I’d love to know.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 09:16 AMNever forgetting that you can’t believe anyone about anything NornIron, it’s interesting that this “spy” by his own admission had exactly 2 meetings with Special Branch. One to warn him he would be arrested and one years later to warn him that his cover was blown and his life was in danger. When Blair was outed as a conservative in Labour he had no such problems, for example. Now, if my cover was blown, and there was no legitimate police to protect me (the shinner vigilantes are about as political as it gets), I’d be signing whatever confession they laid before me. Plus, his original statement did not mention that there was no spying, that seems to have been inserted later.
So.... “bizarre” just about covers it, I’d say.Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 09:34 AMNic
You need to go back and read the transcript.Donaldson clearly stated he received money for spying over the past 20 years, and referred to his “last two contacts”.I am amazed at how people are trying to dismiss this issue, or take a “slap it up to them” attitude.
Surely the issue is bigger than our petty concerns: a democratically elected govenment was brought down by elements within that state’s police force.
By taking our eye off the ball and squabbling, we will lose the import of this. No matter who you are, unionist, nationalist, republican or other, we cannot risk the foundations of democracy by allowing this to happen.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 10:03 AM“Crataegus” I’m sure you mean “inquiry” not “enquiry”.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 10:32 AMThe terrible righteous always slapping the virtue of freedom and democracy in your face.
If you raise you voice against a perceived wrong you are branded of rattling on the pillars of society. Democracy, the holy grail, blinding not enlightening and now it seems, that it fiercest defenders are its worst culprits.
Here we go again.Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 12:02 PMKarl Rove,
Don’t mistake me for a Sinn Fein, IRA or even SDLP supporter. I am a republican. I do disprove of monarchy and I also happen to believe that Northern Ireland is not a viable political entity.I also believe that it is in the best interests of the people of this country to join with the rest of the people on the island in coming to some arrangement whereby we can govern ourselves in security, prosperity and mutual respect and tolerance.
I believe that the IRA’s campaign was morally wrong and politically inept. I disagree entirely with the use of ethnic issues to further political objectives, which both the SDLP and Sinn Fein have been guilty of doing.
So you can rest assured, Karl old son, that I consider many of the the activities of nationalists and republicans over the years to be deeply nefarious and, indeed, crimes against humantity, eg Bloody Friday, Darkley, Enniskillen, Omagh amongst others.
So please, in future before you rush to engage in personal insult again, take a course in open mindedness, and manners.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 12:17 PMJoe
Posting before breakfast is never recommended. Apart from that my crasp of English never was sound.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 12:25 PMSorry grasp above
Looks like posting before lunch is not so good either.
On a lighter note any of you seen this. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2889527841583480458 Power to the people. Proves the weak can win through.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 12:30 PMIt was good nevertheless.
Wonder what you write with some breakfast in your belly.Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 12:34 PMMissfitz wrote:
“I am amazed at how people are trying to dismiss this issue, or take a “slap it up to them” attitude.
Surely the issue is bigger than our petty concerns: a democratically elected govenment was brought down by elements within that state’s police force.
By taking our eye off the ball and squabbling, we will lose the import of this. No matter who you are, unionist, nationalist, republican or other, we cannot risk the foundations of democracy by allowing this to happen.”
Hear hear Missfitz!
This is certainly no laughing matter or a reason for petty one-upmanship.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 12:45 PMThe Sdlp have no choice now. They can`t continue to gave any credence to this political police force, when its independence and accountability is in fact a farce.
They can try and bury their heads, weather the storm but for how long. Until the next crisis and lets be honest this is a crisis for the psni.
If the Sdlp continue to ignore the feelings of the majority of Nationalists and now voices within their own camp, come the next election, they could just disappear of the political map completely.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 01:01 PMAs an immidiate step the SDLP must resign from the policing Boards and Sinn Fein should disengage from any talk with the Brits.
An international inquiry, along the lines of the UN run one in Lebanon over the kiling of the former PM is needed.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 01:37 PMHave to say I would find it pretty bizarre for the SDLP to carry on as if nothing has happened on this one - surely the only way forward is to resign from the DPP’s and refuse to re-engage until there has been either a full public inquiry or a total, objectively supervised cull of Special Branch/C3 etc.. As an SDLP voter and someone who genuinely believed that policing was on the cusp of a transformed future I now wouldn’t touch the fuckers with a forty foot pole (with apologies to John Taylor).
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 02:17 PMJoe- it can be spelt either way.
I have to laugh at the posts on this thread stating what the SDLP ‘must do’.
Sorry lads, but no one in the SDLP has been exposed as an agent of the British. Sinn Féin are the ones colluding with the British, so Sinn Féin are the ones who are in the spotlight. No one else. Traitors.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 03:29 PMIf the Sdlp continue to support this mickey mouse police force because simply thats what it is, they will lose my support.
The PSNI cannot be trusted and they are clearly still an anti-Catholic police service
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 04:54 PMThis “mickey mouse police force”, surely the Provos were the ‘daddy’ of terrorist organisations and this “mickey mouse police force” had Donaldson inside at the highest level, if anyone’s looking ‘mickey mouse it’s the Shinners!!!!!
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 07:19 PMLooks like I’m the first to say this but - any takers on Gerry Adams or Martin McGuinness being unmasked as the main agent being protected by Donaldson’s exposure? Ten days ago I’d have laughed at such a suggestion, but now? Trust me - I’m being serious here - look at the stewardship of the Movement under Adams - it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that he is in fact a plant.
Posted by on Dec 17, 2005 @ 09:51 PMSickened SDLP supporter,
Another SF troll? Please...........It is the case that the SDLP knows only too well the nature of the PSNI, as I do. It is still a force steeped in the traditions of the RUC.
No-one thought that it would be transformed overnight with the changing of its name and the establishment of the Policing Boards and the DPPs.
The SDLP’s position from the start has been that the police force here could only be reformed from within, with maximum Nationalist participation. That is, if it is peopled soley by Unionists, then it will be Unionist.
The SDLP have been particularly forthright in putting their position forward on this. If, as a supporter, you are unaware of this position, then I am very surprised.
That is why I think you are a SF troll who would rather petty criminals in Nationalist areas continue to suffer human rights abuses at the hands of unqualified and unaccountable, self-appointed policemen.
Posted by on Dec 18, 2005 @ 04:14 AMDualta, simple fact of the matter is that the Policing Board is not in charge of policing / the police here. Stretch it just a little bit and it is safe to say that in essence and in fact we are essentially living in a police state.
Posted by on Dec 18, 2005 @ 12:17 PM
