Sunday, November 08, 2009
The Poppy and Irish Nationalism
Remembrance Sunday has arrived. Across the north, many will be gathering to pay tribute to dead soldiers of the two ‘great’ wars of the 20th century. Most of those gathering will also pay tribute to the dead RUC, UDR and British soldiers who were casualties of the conflict in Ireland from 1969, as well as British soldiers killed in other conflicts, including Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of those assembled will also be paying homage to those loyalist paramilitaries who died in the recent conflict in the north of Ireland (many of those gathered will certainly not be interested in incorporating the latter into ‘their’ remembrance services, and some may not be too keen on including those loyal to the Crown who fell in conflicts other than the two World Wars either.)
That is perhaps the most narrative-free comment (if there can be such a thing) that can be made on a day which many will naturally find an emotional one. However, given that the run up to this Remembrance Sunday has once again been marked by a campaign agitating for Nationalist Ireland to conform and pledge its allegiance to Britain’s official date of Remembrance, it is important to respond.
Those participating in the numerous Remembrance Day ceremonies across Ireland today are entitled to do so; indeed, as a republican I must state that one of the darkest days of the conflict was the Cenotaph bombing in Enniskillen which claimed so many lives as people were gathering to remember other lost lives. It was an appalling act in a conflict (like all conflicts) marked by many appalling deeds.
In Britain, the apparent increase in poppy wearing is no doubt linked to the now almost daily news of British soldiers being killed in the latest conflicts involving Britain’s soldiers. That is quite understandable. Some have even suggested that it could be a form of protest at the government policy decisions which led to those soldiers being sent to the very conflict zones from which many are now returning from in coffins. Perhaps that is true, though that presupposes a conscious effort on behalf of the populace to distinguish the soldier from the governing authority which could have repercussions for other remembrance dates (more on that later.)
Yet, as the Guardian has correctly noted, the demand for conformity is disturbing even within Britain, and, in our parochial context, betrays a desire to have a specific narrative legitimised above and beyond others.
The kneejerk unionist reaction to the decision by the Students’ Union at Coleraine to permit the sale of both Poppies and Easter Lilies from the Union shop was entirely predictable as it challenged the simplistic unionist narrative which elevates the commemoration of ‘their’ dead above all others.
That is nothing new. It has become something of an annual tradition for Irish people to be derided for not engaging in Britain’s Remembrance Day ceremonies, almost as if declining to do so was an incomprehensible action. Of course, there are Irish people who do choose to participate, overwhelmingly those identifying themselves as British and/or Northern Irish/Irish, as well as others from an Irish nationalist background who choose to partake in ceremonies which remember not just the dead of the Somme and D-Day, but also the members of the Black and Tans, Parachute Regiment, Black Watch and British Military Intelligence who gained notoriety for their deeds in twentieth century Ireland, as well as those who visited grief on the residents of Amritsar soon after the war to free small nations had concluded.
Some of those from a nationalist persuasion no doubt take the decision to distinguish in their minds the dead from the World Wars from those of others, perhaps choosing to ignore the wreaths commemorating others who wore the British uniforms; others might even take the more sober view that all soldiers are/ were humans, normally from the lower classes, victims of economic conscription as well as compulsory military conscription, all deserving acknowledgement for the manner in which their lives were taken from them.
But a more common reaction within Ireland is to acknowledge the importance of the date for those from a protestant/ unionist background in Ireland and, in the past two decades at least, to acknowledge the deaths of those Irishmen who donned the British uniforms for a variety of reasons during the two world wars, whilst declining to partake in an event which, after all, pays tribute to the very soldiers who implemented the policies and guaranteed the writ of the occupying British forces in Ireland throughout the centuries.
What is often conveniently forgotten in the charge to accuse Nationalist Ireland of not remembering the Irish dead of Britain’s wars in a more visible and pronounced manner is that Irish attitudes to remembrance are considerably more reserved than those of our British counterparts, whether the dead were fighting for Britain or for Ireland, by proxy or otherwise.
Whilst Irish republicans may don Easter lilies to remember our dead at Easter time, the overwhelming majority of Irishmen and women choose not to attach any badges to their lapels in Spring nor Autumn.
It has been suggested in the past that the muted nature of commemorations to celebrate independence in southern Ireland has been a consequence of the IRA’s campaign in since 1969. That may well form part of the answer.
But part of the answer can also be found in the fact that Irish people, unlike their British counterparts, know from their history about the complicated and ugly nature of war due to the legacy of conflict within this island, including the horrific civil war of the early 1920s.
The faces of the dead Asians, killed by Britain’s soldiers in the past decade, make at best a fleeting appearance on our television screens. We do not get to hear the widows (nor widowers) speak nor the children cry in our own language. We don’t hear the stories that turn the individuals from covered bodies into very human beings.
The legacy of conflict in Ireland in the twentieth century has been one that has removed any doubts about the horror of war and made it very difficult to romanticise conflict and indulge in the type of jingoistic, patriotic fervour commonly associated with the British tabloid press.
Nevertheless, the fact that Irish Nationalism has, over the past decade and more, made space for the remembrance of ‘their’ fallen in the two World Wars is to be welcomed. Sinn Fein has struck a chord amongst northern nationalists by choosing to acknowledge the sacrifice of these dead Irishmen in a separate display of remembrance involving the laying of a laurel wreath to mark the anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. This has permitted Irish republicans to honour the Irish dead of the First World War without participating in official British ceremonies which require paying respect to Britain’s soldiers who republicans were at war with up to 15 years ago.
There have also been a number of other commemorations- organised by former loyalist leader, Glenn Barr- in which the Irish National flag has been flown alongside the Union Flag to signify that those killed in the First World War were from an Irish nationalist as well as unionist background. Such commemorations are to be welcomed as they take steps to remove the political baggage, recognising the complicated nature of Irish involvement in the world wars.
Of course, there has been a negative reaction from political unionism to these developments. Unionist opposition to this is not only hollow but ridiculous. After all, would they prefer republicans to dishonestly pretend to pay tribute to the very soldiers with whom they were- most recently- engaged in a conflict with for a quarter of a century? If the demand is for recognition of the sorry plight of the fallen soldier in isolation to the commands from his authorities, then does that not have consequences for unionist acknowledgment of the plight of the Irishmen and women who gave their lives for Irish freedom regardless of their hostility to those further up the chain of command?
Given that many of the earliest nominal Irish republicans were of staunch Ulster Protestant stock, then the charge to compel all to embrace Remembrance Sunday as a shared remembrance would logically also seek to demand unionist participation in commemorations remembering Irish republicans who died in the cause of Irish freedom. Food for thought indeed!
Remembrance, like so much else in Northern Ireland, is likely to remain a divisive issue for some time to come. But moves by Irish Nationalism to provide (within the Irish nationalist narrative) a space for unionism to commemorate its British war dead of all wars and to genuinely find a place for the Irish Nationalist casualties of the world wars is a progressive step. The poppy will remain what it is. Irish Nationalism should not, nor does it need to, embrace it: rather, it must simply continue to find a space for those who seek to embrace it within its vision of the future.
Chris Donnelly @ 11:41 AM
Fancy condemning Enniskillen Mr. Donnelly? Maybe fancy condemning Kingsmills and Darkely whilst you are at it.
The simple reality is that despite your attempts at a revisionist narrative the republican movement of which you are proud to be a member murdered people who were participating in a ceremony which you now try to say that you can understand and accept.
That same movement tried to claim that they had not intended to murder the people at the service with a series of lies about the nature of the bomb they used.
In addition the same movement tried to commit mass murder of children at Tullyhommon on the same day as they murdered people at Enniskillen.
When the republican movement wish to unreservedly apologise for and accept the wrongness of those actions then some of us might consider listening to their claims to be interested in respecting others in Northern Ireland.
When you personally equally unreservedly condemn what happened at Enniskillen etc. then some of us might see you as something other than a simplistic cheerleader for terrorists.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 01:39 PMThe simple fact of the matter is there would be an awful lot less people mourning today as a result of memories of lost loved ones were it not for the vicious murder campaign of Republicans - and that doesn’t just apply to members of the armed forces (not that there was ever a legitimate reason for killing them).
Nauseating post Donnelly.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 01:52 PMTurgon
I’m really not interested in how you personally view myself.
There were many killings during the recent conflict- and many more before then as well- that were appalling, Enniskillen included (as I state above.)
Your narrative is a black and white one, mine with shades of grey: that is your prerogative.
But it does intrigue me that such a post would precipitate such a response. Imagine republicans prefacing comments by ‘demanding’ unionists apologise for a/b/c before they are listened to.
Oh to be so self-righteous!
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 02:09 PMTurgon have a lie down.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 02:14 PMMr Donnelly,
To regard condemning the IRA murder of the people on Rememberance Sunday in Enniskillen as an example of self righteousness shows us all we know about you.It is not self righteousness; it is the ability to tell right from wrong and murdering Marie Wilson and the others was wrong as was trying to murder children at Tullyhommon. The fact that you cannot see that shows us your warped sense of morality. Either that or you are so much the cheerleader that you cannot even condemn your supposed heroes for an action which the whole world saw as revolting: the whole world that is apart from people like you.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 02:16 PMTurgon
‘Right from wrong’ eh? ‘warped sense of morality’? ‘...the whole world’? ‘..so much the cheerleader’???
Good Lord, you do need to calm down. It’s almost as if you’re not used to listening to alternative opinions….
The ability to tell ‘right’ from ‘wrong’ would lead many to conclude that remembering those who served to further Britain’s imperial interests abroad is wrong, whether in India, Ireland or elsewhere.
Once again you hide behind certain tragic killings during the conflict to cloak yourself in self-righteousness- the TUV’s ‘real victims’ mentality reveals itself.
As I’ve stated before when you’ve resorted to this line of hysterical attack: I could reciprocate by mentioning specific killings and elevating them above others, but I fail to see the worth in that.
But if it helps you make sense of the world around you, you go right ahead…
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 02:37 PMNot getting anywhere here are we Donnelly.
The simple fact is that you are telling us: “Those participating in the numerous Remembrance Day ceremonies across Ireland today are entitled to do so”
However, your friends in the IRA decided to kill Marie Wilson and the others for so doing. Now I would condemn that and call it murder. However, despite your comments which I quote above you cannot. That makes your whole blog nauseating hypocrisy and shows that you are attempting a simplistic form of revisionism: one which I am pointing out.
The fact that you are trying to be a bit clever does not disguise the fact that you are a cheerleader for terrorists.
Incidentally remember Tullyhommon. Now you are, I believe, a primary school teacher. Do you think that trying to kill primary school children (as the IRA tried to do at Tullyhommon) is legitimate or do you condemn it?
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 02:48 PMEnniskillen was a legitimate target. This was an attempt by pro British elements to justify the murder of Billy Leonard - the pitch fork and other Fermanagh murders. Anybody wearing a British Forces uniform, a terrorist symbol (poppy) or any other supremacist symbol should always watch out. The Provos are now the RUP so let’s not waste time on them.
At Gallipoli, the Trukrs commemmorate but the Turks and the French/British/Irish mercenary lemmings who attacked them.
I was in Sainsbury’s at 11 pm but luckily got out before the two minute silence, which Germans, Turks and other peace loving shoppers were forced to partake in.
ps: If you are a Unionist, you have no right to lecture to anyone on anything. Your legacy is the bomb and the bullet.
Enjoy wearing your hate symbol, along with King rat’s da, Simon Mann and Mark Thatcher.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 02:49 PMTurgon, you’ve already admitted that your father -in-law served under Lt. General Percival in the Far East, Percival was commander of the ‘Essex TORTURE Battalion’ during the war of independence in Ireland. An individual responsible for the torture of civilians, and prisoners.
On your knees boy and beg the Irish people for forgiveness, that your family would take up arms and serve a man who tortured your neigbours and burnt their homes.
Thats a big old beam you’ve got in your eye Turgon, and a massive chip on each of your shoulders.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 02:51 PMTurgon, grow up. I am not an Irish Republican but I understood what was said.
“I must state that one of the darkest days of the conflict was the Cenotaph bombing in Enniskillen which claimed so many lives as people were gathering to remember other lost lives. It was an appalling act in a conflict (like all conflicts) marked by many appalling deeds.”
Where does that disrepect the victims of that sad day?Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 03:04 PMIt disrespects the victims of Enniskillen because it doesn’t condemn it. It’s weasel words.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 03:19 PMRed Kangaroo,
No you understand what he says but he is trying to duck the issue that it is the organisation he supports and will not condemn which murdered those people on Remembrance Sunday. If he cannot condemn that action in explicit terms then he should be challenged for telling the lie of: “Those participating in the numerous Remembrance Day ceremonies across Ireland today are entitled to do so” The fact that he supports the IRA and cannot condemn the Enniskillen bomb makes it clear that the above quote from him is a lie.fin,
The suggestion that any member of my family let alone one who was a prisoner of war of the Japanese can be compared with those who murdered the people at Enniskillen is absolutely disgusting. It simply shows you as another supporter of murderers.Trowbridge,
Please do not mention named people as murderers when in actual fact I understand that at least one of them has taken libel proceedings against you. Mick has had to speak to you about this before.Gerry Mander,
Well at least unlike the rest you are an honest supporter of murder.Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 03:26 PMTurgon
Never heard of Tullyhommon to be honest.Shall I throw out some specific atrocity to challenge you with? Maybe regarding the death of a child/ren at the hands of loyalists/British forces? Is that how we play the game?
I am indeed a primary school teacher, and if I’m not mistaken you are a health bureaucrat. Should I consult Lost Lives for health workers killed by loyalists/ British forces?
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 03:30 PMIt disrespects the victims of Enniskillen because it doesn’t condemn it.
I would have thought condemnation was implied in the phrase “It was an appalling act”.
Turgon
Why don’t you just change your pseudonym to ‘whatabout’?
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 03:32 PMTurgon, I repeat - Grow Up -
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 03:39 PMMr. Donnelly,
“Never heard of Tullyhommon to be honest.”Since you and honesty are completely unrelated and always have been I do not believe that for a moment.
However, it was the attempt by the IRA to use a much larger bomb in Tullyhommon which is beside Pettigo (the same day as Enniskillen). That parade had never had any security forces presence. However, it did have lots of Girls and Boys Brigade children. It was a command wire bomb so one of your “volunteers” would have watched whilst s/he murdered the children. Thankfully a tractor broke the command wire at some point before it could be detonated.
As you can see as a primary school teacher it is relevant: what is your view of those you support killing children?
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 03:42 PMWhen did Remembrance day switch to a Sunday?
We still hold our services in Canada at 11.00 am on November 11th. It’s also a public holiday for all Federal and some Provincial employees.Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 03:43 PMExcellent post - I for one will remember the Irish dead at Easter and were the lily as a mark of respect, I do not have to indulge in a foreign affectation nor indeed help subsidise the care of the murderers the foreigner has sent to my land to murder our people
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 03:52 PM“Since you and honesty are completely unrelated and always have been…”
Turgon
My, that is coming close to slanderous. Perhaps I should have a word with Mick. Wouldn’t be the first time your temper has led to you having to apologise now, would it?
I find it tragic that otherwise intelligent individuals like yourself- within dissident unionism- remain resigned to continue fighting the battles, stuck in the foxholes, still looking for victory and confirmation that ‘we were the righteous.’
Oh, and you can take it that I’m very glad that those children were spared on that day.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 03:57 PMMr. Donnelly,
Since you are so glad those children were spared I take it you think that the Claudy bomb was wrong seeing as it killed Kathyrn Eakin who was 9 at the time: about the age of the children you teach maybe?Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 04:00 PMTurgon
“ESSEX TORTURE BATTALION”
The British officer your father in law served under tortured civilians and prisoners in IRELAND.
Unlike your father in law they didn’t have to travel to the other side of the world to see a bit of ‘action’ your father in law’s commanding officer came to them.
Thems the facts Turgon.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 04:09 PMI don’t like Donnelly discussing the sacred act of Remembrance and the symbol of the poppy. Lets not forget this person is a terrorist sympathiser and possibly and instigator, no ‘self righteous’ posts from him can hide this most obvious fact.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 04:11 PMfin,
Since my father in law never served in Ireland how can you reconcile this statement with reality: “On your knees boy and beg the Irish people for forgiveness”As I said my father in law never served in Ireland. Or maybe you feel that unionists of today should apologise for what you claim may or may not have been done nearly 100 years ago. If that is the standard should unionists ask all Irish people to apologise for the treatment of unionists in what is now the RoI. Or maybe you should start by apologising for 1641?
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 04:17 PMTurgon
Those having their shindig at Eniskillen were more guilty than Billy Leonard, the Miami Showband, the children of Hamburg, the Boers, the Mau Maus and all the other countless victims of the British Armed Forces. What was Marie Wilson commemorating murderers for anyway?
One of the reasons the resitance forces got off on executing B Special/UDR/etc terrorists is because they epitomised the sectarian evil you are imbued with.
It is a pity you have forced Mr Ford to retreat. He might have had a nuanced view.
If you know how to read, maybe read Goodbye to All That by Robert Graves.
All about shooting unarmed German prisoners, a speciality of the Aussies. And why did Paisley not join up? After all, some German blood is Fenian.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 04:20 PMindeed Turgon, I guess your poppy wearing also includes Brian Nelson and the intell officers who supplied the weapons used in the murder of 300 of your neighbours.
Possibly you should buy some kneepads Turgon.
Posted by on Nov 08, 2009 @ 04:26 PM
