Monday, October 02, 2006

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >

1. I am sorry that Tommy has decided to take this route as he knows it is doomed to failure. He needs to set aside personal ego and think of the greater good of his own area as well as the organisation as a whole. I have great respect for the bulk of the membership of South East Antrim who are being kept in the dark and denied a true voice within their own area. This will only cause dismay and worry as the vast majority only want to remain within the mainstream UDA and support the UPRG initiative not this latest cobbled together nonsense that Tommy is spouting. Greed and a desire to be top dog (in a political sense) has caused Tommy to lose sight of one thing; no one individual is superior to the organisation as a whole and no one individual can subvert the wishes of the membership.

   No good can come of this.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 11:47 AM

2. deeply regrettable that Tommy has taken the head staggers and headed off on his own.

   There is no way that anyone can justify a wind down period of five years where the criminal activities of some continue in parallel with a community development approach.

   Even the context suggests that the term community development is not understood. Organisations dont do community development people do and the idea that sea will somehow take responsibilty for development is laughable given their track record.

   Work in South particularly in Finaghy and Taughmonagh shows how it should be done and in east occasionally they get it right (though the attitude of we will do everything for everyone so everybody else go away is a hindrance)

   Hopefully the work with Farset will allow everyone else to move on and focus on people and where they are going.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 12:15 PM

3. LHW:  “I am sorry that Tommy has decided to take this route as he knows it is doomed to failure. He needs to set aside personal ego and think of the greater good of his own area as well as the organisation as a whole. “

   No honor among thieves, eh?

   LHW:  “I have great respect for the bulk of the membership of South East Antrim who are being kept in the dark and denied a true voice within their own area. This will only cause dismay and worry as the vast majority only want to remain within the mainstream UDA and support the UPRG initiative not this latest cobbled together nonsense that Tommy is spouting.”

   Sure, they’re just a collection of wee mushrooms, innocent of anything, lost and alone.  Beleive that and I’ll tell you another.

   LHW:  “Greed and a desire to be top dog (in a political sense) has caused Tommy to lose sight of one thing; no one individual is superior to the organisation as a whole and no one individual can subvert the wishes of the membership. “

   So get back in line or its the Shoukri treatment, with cudgels and mobs, eh?  Maybe you haven’t noticed, LHW, but the UDA, by almost all accounts, are not a lot of deeply introspective fellas inclined to interal debate.  If the membership.  If Tommy didn’t believe he had some level of support, I sincerely doubt he would have hared off on this little frolic of his own.

   More likely, what we are seeing is the crumbling of the UDA council—without “the war” to keep them honest, the crooks are coming to the fore, each wanting his personal buy-out and a period of time to milk their rackets for the last penny.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 01:24 PM

4. ‘Good’ UDA. Now I’ve heard everything.... [ see commenting policy - edited moderator]

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 01:41 PM

5. Never mind the cause lads, what about the money eh.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 02:22 PM

6. So much for freedom of speech (I know being in the UK, its nothing more than a euphimism) you Prods can dish it out, as soon as people start throwing it back, you go off cying to your mammies.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 02:27 PM

7. No matter how much you may try and dress it up, the UDA are still a murderous Brit deathsquad, and one that should be stamped out, not appeased by limp wristed, bleeding heart liberals.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 02:30 PM

8. P O’Neill must be the most obvious troll in slugger’s history.(which is saying something!)

   Getting back to the issue at hand, has Kirkham outflanked Jackie to make sure South-East Antrim gets a good slice of the ‘pay-off’ cake?

   Kirkham strikes me as being no dozer and I am sure that he wouldn’t sever his links with the mainstream UDA unless he was sure that nothing of his would be severed in return!

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 02:35 PM

9. Austin:  “Kirkham strikes me as being no dozer and I am sure that he wouldn’t sever his links with the mainstream UDA unless he was sure that nothing of his would be severed in return! “

   Its the same problem as the IRA has with their splinter groups—the structure is left in place to “keep the rank and file in line,” but, for political considerations, have lost their most efficient tool to do so—internal terror tactics.  Of course, the IRA splinters want to pursue the “glorious revolution,” the UDA goombahs just want a pay-off and a few more years to run their rackets.

   Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 02:43 PM

10. Why should we pay off a band of murdering, drug dealing thugs? Isnt that racketeering?? And after their first hand out how long will it be before they come back looking for more? The ‘pay off’ money would be better spent incarcerating these criminals, not placating them.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 02:52 PM

11. Tommy is bright enough but this will lead nowhere for him. It is more a case of pique (annoyed at others taking a more prominent position in the UPRG and himself being called to account on policy issues) than anything else. Certainly it is not a vision of the future that he has ever shared with us before and one suspects it is a case the last roll of the dice and an attempt to capitalise on a piece of the pie. I wouldn’t underestimate his level of support but I certainly wouldn’t overestimate it either. My soundings are that the people behind this are but a tiny minority.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 03:03 PM

12. Dread,

    Dread
    The Finaghy Crossroads project is an excellent example of a community relations initiative actually working.

    It is no secret that the UDA has been strongly supportive of this project from day one.

    Show me something of similar worth that the much-vaunted PUP have been involved in. Dictionary Dave can talk the talk but can he..? etc

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 03:03 PM

13. LHW:  “It is more a case of pique (annoyed at others taking a more prominent position in the UPRG and himself being called to account on policy issues) than anything else. Certainly it is not a vision of the future that he has ever shared with us before and one suspects it is a case the last roll of the dice and an attempt to capitalise on a piece of the pie.”

    Like I said, no honor among thieves, eh?

    LHW:  “I wouldn’t underestimate his level of support but I certainly wouldn’t overestimate it either. My soundings are that the people behind this are but a tiny minority. “

    Then why get agitated, LHW?  Tommy will get the spectacle of “the Shoukri treatment” of a couple hundren marching thugs and that will be that.  The only way there is any trouble would be if Tommy *HAS* significant support and your boys find themselves bringing golf-clubs to a gunfight.

    stewie:  “Show me something of similar worth that the much-vaunted PUP have been involved in. Dictionary Dave can talk the talk but can he..? etc “

    Bless your heart, but where the hades does Dictionary Dave figure into it?

    One good deed does not excuse a lifetime of thuggery—just as Dr. Rev. No.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 03:11 PM

14. ‘My soundings are that the people behind this are but a tiny minority.’
    Lofty,
    does this mean that you will be attending a ‘Westlands’ style Leaving Do for Tommy and the Chihuahua Club any time soon?

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 03:13 PM

15. ‘Bless your heart, but where the hades does Dictionary Dave figure into it?’

    Dread, Ervine is regularly held up a shining example of a ‘good’ prod by bleeding heart types like you.

    However in terms of practical initiatives designed to improving life for interface communities, the PUP’s input amounts to f*ck-all squared.

    [Play the ball, stewart - edited moderator]

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 03:37 PM

16. Just to note the added link in the original post to the group’s [quite well designed] website.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 05:10 PM

17. stewart:  “Dread, Ervine is regularly held up a shining example of a ‘good’ prod by bleeding heart types like you. “

    Ye gods, austin, that I’m willing to call a spide a spide should disqualify me as a “bleeding heart type, just off the cuff.  That I find paying crooks not to be crooks while allowing them five years to be crooks ridiculous does not make me a “bleeding heart.” It makes me someone willing to point out the Emperor has no clothes.

    stewart:  “However in terms of practical initiatives designed to improving life for interface communities, the PUP’s input amounts to f*ck-all squared. “

    Gee, I wonder why?  Their mouth-piece is a all-but-unrepentant street fighter and they represent a collection of thugs, just like the UPRG does for the UDA.  As I said before, one good deed does not redeem a wicked life.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 05:26 PM

18. “does this mean that you will be attending a ‘Westlands’ style Leaving Do for Tommy and the Chihuahua Club any time soon?”

    Doubt it. Horses for courses and all that. I personally don’t see Tommy’s initiative gaining momentum but we shall see.

    “The only way there is any trouble would be if Tommy *HAS* significant support and your boys find themselves bringing golf-clubs to a gunfight.”

    We are committed to a non violent strategy so there will be no guns, no golf clubs. If I can survive listening to Sammy Duddy singing at the Cloughfern Social Club I can certainly survive anything including this latest minor split. The rank and file (of all areas) are sick to their back teeth of this and want no bloodletting.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 05:39 PM

19. LHW:  “We are committed to a non violent strategy so there will be no guns, no golf clubs. “

    So its your position that the cudgel-wielding mass of humanity that marched on the Shoukri’s patch was, what, out for a late-night round at the links?

    LHW:  “The rank and file (of all areas) are sick to their back teeth of this and want no bloodletting. “

    And yet Loyalist violence still goes on in fits and starts… are they sicker some times than others?

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 05:53 PM

20. “So its your position that the cudgel-wielding mass of humanity that marched on the Shoukri’s patch was, what, out for a late-night round at the links?”

    As someone who was there (and presumably you were not) I can only state what I saw (as you can only state what you want to believe); no violence was used and no one had cudgel’s,sticks,stones or similar bits of jetsam.

    “And yet Loyalist violence still goes on in fits and starts… are they sicker some times than others?”

    As I have stated on numerous occasions we are committed to non violence. Fits and starts (as you put it) is a slight improvement over continuous surely? I can’t speak for your particular area (as I don’t know where you are from) but I can speak for mine and it has seen no gun attacks in the past 12 months, a 90% reduction in assaults (reported and non reported) directly attributable to a paramilitary organisation (and the two incidents that make up that percentage both involved drug dealers being put out so I won’t be shedding any tears, nor will my community), a landmark agreement on the removal of flags (which we kept to), a removal of the one and only paramilitary mural from a Loyalist estate and a liaison partnership with the local District Council, PSNI and statutory bodies to ease any tension or problems in the area. I call that progress but no doubt you will sniffle and moan and ask me how much is this costing and where is the money? We have received nothing and have put in for nothing nor do we see the need to put in anything so the famed £8mill (requested by Tommy) or the £195K for jobs for the boys is a moot point for us. It does not interest me one iota.

    We are moving in one direction and one direction only. It bothers me not the reaction to our direction. But it is happening despite what you wish to believe and it will continue.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 06:18 PM

21. This all seems much more advanced than anything the UPRG has came forward with so far.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 06:34 PM

22. LHW:  “As someone who was there (and presumably you were not) I can only state what I saw (as you can only state what you want to believe); no violence was used and no one had cudgel’s,sticks,stones or similar bits of jetsam. “

    Sure… and Frankie Gallagher wanting a peaceful march and the attacks on houses reported by the BBC were just an unfortunate coincidence?

    LHW:  “As I have stated on numerous occasions we are committed to non violence. Fits and starts (as you put it) is a slight improvement over continuous surely?”

    Please reconcile these two sentences, LHW.  If you “committed to nonviolence,” why paper over the fits and starts, LHW?  It takes no energy to not attack someone.

    LHW:  “I can speak for mine and it has seen no gun attacks in the past 12 months, a 90% reduction in assaults (reported and non reported) directly attributable to a paramilitary organisation (and the two incidents that make up that percentage both involved drug dealers being put out so I won’t be shedding any tears, nor will my community)”

    Gee, there were only a couple attacks and those were matters of free-lance vigilantism, so they don’t really count… Is that what you’re saying, LHW?  BTW, how do you track “non-reported assaults?”

    LHW:  “I call that progress but no doubt you will sniffle and moan and ask me how much is this costing and where is the money?”

    No, its progress and I won’t dispute that.  That said, the problem with Danegeld is you never get rid of the Dane.  Paying thugs not to be thugs while permitting them time to wind down their thuggery seems a trifle odd, especially for a group “committed to non-violence.”

    LHW:  “We are moving in one direction and one direction only.”

    Uh-huh… then why to brigades keep trying to fall out, requiring “peaceful protests” and “shows of strength” to keep them in line, LHW?  If it were all so cut and dried, seeing as y’all are “committed to non-violence,” why the theatrics?

    LHW:  “But it is happening despite what you wish to believe and it will continue. “

    Sure, an’ the Shoukri bros. bowed out out of the goodness of their hearts and because Frankie said “pretty please with sugar.” I’ll save my applause for something worth applauding.  The IMC, last I checked, said you weren’t there yet.  When you get there, I’ll applaud.

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 06:42 PM

23. In amounts to danegeld, interesting.  The UDA in SE Antrim wishes to be paid try not to do those things that they currently do.  The UPRG has not yet made so naked a “request.”

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 06:46 PM

24. Dread,

    I can sense your confusion and panic as you do not know how to deal with the positives proposals outlined by LWH.

    It is not so easy for you to mouth off your useless middle-class soundbites when you are presented with incontrovertible evidence of the positive moves being made by one element of loyalist paramilitaries.

    In practical terms, what have you ever contributed towards improving the lot of interface communities?

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 06:57 PM

25. stewart:  “It is not so easy for you to mouth off your useless middle-class soundbites when you are presented with incontrovertible evidence of the positive moves being made by one element of loyalist paramilitaries. “

    Taking down a few tattered banners and painting over a mural are not “incontroverible evidence of positive moves,” stewart.  They are, by their nature, transient.  Banners taken down are just as easiily put back up.  A mural painted over, once dry, can be painted over again.

    In the end, little of substance has changed.  The drugs are still dealt, the violence still occurs, albeit at a slower rate.  The spides are still spides. 

    One element of loyalist paramilitaries are demanding 8.5 million pounds to prevent those enterprises they are currently involved in—drugs and violence.  The crooks want to wind down their operations and expect the tax-payer to subsidize them to do so.

    stewart:  “In practical terms, what have you ever contributed towards improving the lot of interface communities? “

    Having never being part of the problem, for starters.  Can anyone in the UDA make that claim?

    Posted by  on Oct 02, 2006 @ 07:16 PM
Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >

Commenting is not available in this weblog entry.