Wednesday, July 12, 2006
Bonfire Night
Forgive me if this doesn’t work, but I have had numerous comments and e-mails about my Flickr photies of the bonfire, and I also have this little bit of video. It was my first time to actually see the Tricolour being burned, and I was greatly saddened. I hadn’t fully appreciated that it is the highlight of the evening for many, and there was a huge cheer when it went up. Many people left the bonfire site at that point in time.
While I hold firmly to my view that the 12th can be morphed into something different, a little less threatening and a lot more fun, we have to remove this blatant and painful sectarianism. Yes, Yes, nationalists need to get their house in order, but goodness some parts of the Twelfth are agressively anti- catholic and would never make one feel at home.
Miss Fitz @ 09:59 PM
Whatever’s in the top box isn’t appearing on my screen.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 11:25 PMIs it impossible that the burning of the tricolour can ever be seen for what it is (to me anyway) - a political statement?
I’m all for removing sectarianism - the hatred for Catholics exhibited by some and the glorification of terrorist organisations is a damning indictment of the mindset of too many people in Northern Ireland, but the ill-feeling towards the southern state given their terretorial desires towards the province will be difficult to change.
(Disclaimer: Obviously effigies of the Pope and particularly the disgusting scenes in Ahoghill last night would not be encompassed in the political statement referred to above).
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 11:26 PMI dont know how to make that go away Gonzo, but can you play the video in the second box? I know its poor quality, (I was shaking), let me know if its worth keeping up?
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 11:27 PMYup and yup. Where is it?
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 11:37 PMSecret location in County Down.....??
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 11:47 PMAnd, by comment two, we have an apologist for flag-burning!
If you think that it would be remotely possible to say “OK, lads, no singing ‘we are the Billy Boys’ and no burning of effigies of the pope or the Taoiseach or beating up Taigs—but carry on burning the flag, no problem there.”
Another manifestation of that wonderful Christian religion you all practice, I"m sure.
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 11:47 PMBeano
On the Ormeau this evening, a group of youths were going to burn a Union flag.There was an immediate intervention by community figures, and politicians, and it did not happen. Indeed, I was surprised to see an SF figure respectfully fold the flag, before taking it away.
There’s nothing political about burning the flag in this way, its ritualistic and hate filled
Posted by on Jul 12, 2006 @ 11:56 PMHate filled I get, but ritualistic? Most things are. How is that a criticism?
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 12:01 AM“Is it impossible…a political statement? “ no it’s not. It’s pure naked sectarianism against almost 50% of the population of the Sick Cos.
“I’m all for removing sectarianism…” I don’t see that coming thro in your postings when you seem to approve of the burning of flags etc which are representative of your neighbours. To me you seem familiar with and spouting the usual sound bites.
“…but the ill-feeling towards the southern state given their terretorial desires towards the province will be difficult to change. “ and here’s me thinking that Articles 1 & 2 and writing the GFA into Irish law removed this idiotic basis held by some in the north. Oh well, I guess there’s no pleasing some mopes.
“Obviously effigies of the Pope and particularly the disgusting scenes in Ahoghill last night would not be encompassed in the political statement referred to above. “ don’t ya just love that ol’ disclaimer trick.
If only the lowlifes around the bonfires were as intelligent as yourself and were able to cloak their feeling of hatred as well as you’ve then we would have the whole Mickey Bo story going around again, eh? We gotta teach them how to use the ol disclaimer trick. Note to myself: Must bring it up at the next LOL 1690 meeting. The child killing of Mickey Bo (lets not forget Lisa Dornan, the North Belfast kid (see what I mean, I can’t even remember his name) and of course the 3 Quinn boys) doesn’t look good when celebrated as part of Loyalist bonfire heritage.
Miss Fitz, if you think “the Tricolour being burned, and I was greatly saddened” you can’t seem to differentiate between a piece of cloth in Green, White and Orange and how it’s supposed to represent a people and their culture.
How’s that flag burning debate coming along in your native country? Any governmt or civic funding being proposed these days? What’s GWB’s opinion on burning “Ol’ Glory” and is he advotating tax payer funding of insults to a neighbour?
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 12:01 AMWhat I meant Gonzo is that it has become part of the ritual, as opposed to a purposeful political statment, as Beano is implying
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 12:03 AMIt just all appears so terribly sad, dank and dreary. A celebration lacking in any joy or bonhomie.
The French resistance fighter and philosopher, Simone Weill, a Jewish convert to Catholicism, once remarked how it is that, even in everday life, while the contemplation of engaging in positive, useful activity often seems gloomy and boring and yet the contemplation of doing something destructive and negative often seems exciting, yet in action the reverse was true. Simple, laborious goodly tasks of kindness reward us with a feeling of joy and well being while entering into destructive, negative hate-filled activity merely generates an initial excitement that leaves us feeling empty, sad, lonely and wasted.
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 12:08 AM“Another manifestation of that wonderful Christian religion you all practice, I"m sure.”
I’m not sure if that was directed at me, but as you were responding to my comment I’ll answer. I don’t practice any religion, Christian or otherwise.
Anonymous, is it really that difficult for you to grasp the difference between burning a flag in protest at aims (real or perceived) of another state and the celebrating the callous murder of innocent children? If so I think you seriously undervalue human life.
“What’s GWB’s opinion on burning “Ol’ Glory” and is he advotating tax payer funding of insults to a neighbour?”
I wouldn’t advocate adopting all the laws in place in the US of A anyway, so I’m not sure what GWB’s opinion has to do with the price of spuds.
Miss Fitz, it obviously has become part of the ritual, but I’m not sure that that detracts from it’s original purpose. To be fair though, I can only really speak for what it brought to my mind (I use the past tense as I haven’t been to a bonfire in years). To me it always seemed more defiant than anything.
Anyway it’s late so I’m done for the night.
Re: the Ormeau incident, I don’t know the circumstances, but I think it would be fair to draw a distinction between burning a flag in like-minded company and (and I stress I don’t know anything about the even you describe, so I’m not saying this is what happened, but hypothetically speaking) going to an area where you will offend or waiting until people who are likely to be offended are present.Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 12:50 AM“On the Ormeau this evening, a group of youths were going to burn a Union flag.
There was an immediate intervention by community figures, and politicians, and it did not happen. Indeed, I was surprised to see an SF figure respectfully fold the flag, before taking it away.”
meanwhile the orange order introduce a banner during this years parade commemorating the person who murdered 5 innocent people & injured a further 9 in Sean Graham’s bookmakers on the Ormeau Road.
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 01:00 AMAll this Orangefest Cultural integration PR stuff is a total bunch of garbage that belongs in the nearest toilet. Paisley’s over the dead body speech sums up the Loyalist mentality perfectly, so the Nationalist people need to realise this and take a stand...No more Orange parades through their areas and no more public funding for sectarian events and organizations opposed to power sharing.
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 01:48 AMFucking bastards.
And these people were probably saddened at the death of Michael McIlveen (though you can’t be sure) and yet they don’t realise they are furthering the kind of sectarian mentality that led to the child’s tragic death.
They disgust me.
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 02:37 AMUI: “And these people were probably saddened at the death of Michael McIlveen (though you can’t be sure) and yet they don’t realise they are furthering the kind of sectarian mentality that led to the child’s tragic death. “
Hell, more than a couple of them were celebrating it.
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 03:58 AMMiss Fitz makes fair comments. I do think that this practice of the burning of the Irish Tricolour should be discontinued as it is negative and not diplomatic towards the Republic, with whom we have no quarrel.
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 08:42 AMslug
“I think that this practice of the burning of the Irish Tricolour should be discontinued...”
Agreed - when will the idiots on both sides who go in for carry on like this realise that they are disgracing the causes they claim to support? Like the lamebrains who write political slogans on toilet walls!
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 10:08 AMBeano
“I think it would be fair to draw a distinction between burning a flag in like-minded company and going to an area where you will offend or waiting until people who are likely to be offended are present.”
What do you make of the situation at Annadale embankment? The Upper Ormeau is not only mixed (with a slight Catholic majority, natch) but one of the very few examples in NI of a really successful mixed community. The bonfire takes place on the Embankment, on a main road, from where the many tricolours and other effigies are clearly visible from the Lower Ormeau, Stranmillis, and to the large numbers of motorists who pass by every day.
Furthermore the UDA have erected a banner on Candahar Street, which is a mixed street.
So the situation at Annadale (which is the most directly relevant to the Lower Ormeau) is anything but the discreet ritual among like-minded people that you seem to suggest. On the contrary it is probably the single most provocative of all Belfast’s hatefests.
Doesn’t that seem to you to present a stark contrast to a situation across the bridge where flag-burners are faced down, and where “enemy” flags are saved from the pyros?
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 11:20 AMBilly Pilgrom
There shouldnt be a distinction between one bonfire being more inflammitory than another. I have no problem with bonny’s and people walking (they can do that till the blisters pop for all i care) What i do object to is blatant sectarianism, discrimination and what is essentially incitement. I thought there were laws for that kinda thing.
Its a good point you make about the Ormeau Rd being mixed but accomodation was reached there yesterday and it passed peacefully enough aside from a few idiots on the return legPosted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 11:51 AMMoochin Photoman
“There shouldnt be a distinction between one bonfire being more inflammitory than another.”
Nice pun! But wouldn’t you agree that a loyalist bonfire in an exclusively loyalist area out of the way of anyone but loyalists is different from a loyalist bonfire with all the trappings in a mixed area? That it’s more inflammatory? Incendiary even? (Okay, I’ll stop now...)
“I have no problem with bonny’s and people walking (they can do that till the blisters pop for all i care) What i do object to is blatant sectarianism, discrimination and what is essentially incitement. I thought there were laws for that kinda thing.”
Yeah, but having laws and enforcing them are two different things. One has to ask why these laws aren’t enforced? If people want to have bonfires, fine, but I think they should be subject to strict regulations and should be licensed. Currently, no-one is responsible for these bonfires. That is just crazy.
“It’s a good point you make about the Ormeau Rd being mixed but accomodation was reached there yesterday and it passed peacefully enough aside from a few idiots on the return leg.”
But that’s only the tip of the iceberg. My life has been made a misery for the last month by the emboldened thugs who have been strutting around the area. The entire area was festooned with pro-union paraphernalia - last year was the first time in the several years I’ve lived here that that had happened (other than around the Orange Hall). This year there is a UDA banner across a mixed street. The road into Delhi Street from Annadale Embankment was rendered impassable by debris from the bonfire (which was still smouldering last night, 24 hours after it was lit.) Official-looking signs on behalf of the “Residents of Annadale” have appeared on the main road containing dark warnings that people should stay clear of the bonfire site, and should not dump material at the site.
I took a stroll up to my local shop yesterday and you could’ve cut the atmosphere with a knife. There were tumbleweeds blowing up and down the Ormeau Road, except for gangs of conspicuously loyalist-looking youths casting aggressive looks around them. I didn’t feel safe about leaving the house after that.
Now, I would perhaps accept this if I lived in the Shankill or Sandy Row or Ballybeen or somewhere like that. But I don’t. I live in a peaceful, relaxed and mixed area where, for a month or so (so far...) every year these malign forces are allowed to take over.
Now, you talk about a “few idiots”. True, things could have been much worse, but I own a house in this area. How many thousands of pounds have these “few idiots” cost me, in terms of the value of my house? How many tens of thousands have been shorn from the value of my house over the years, as a result of living in an area that loyalists and Orangemen are allowed to deface for months of the year?
The Upper Ormeau is a rare beacon of co-existence in NI. Major demographic change has taken place here in the last 10 years and has happened largely without incident. But in the last two years we have seen an upping of the ante, with vastly increased numbers of flags, paramilitary banners, and the bonfire has been geting bigger.
Why should the peaceful, co-existing majority of Catholics and Protestants here, who are appalled by this neanderthal takeover, be expected to tolerate this annual disgrace?
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 12:15 PMmoochin photoman i love your ‘everyday orange’ photos on flickr.. billy pilgrim, we are neighbours and i thank you for articulating what i have been feeling for the past month.. intimidated.. the annadale embankment is an abomination, absolutely disgusting..
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 12:25 PMi lived on the ormeau for 11 yrs untll o couple of years ago and the demographic has changed significantly.The annadale embankment is unique and harks back to the past when it was used as a sink estate by the Housing Executive.
I agree that house prices have been affected there and that yes the “few idiots” are the tip of the iceberg.
We shuold i think be grateful that by and large it all passed off peacefully yesterday.
As regards the policing and organisation of the bonfires....until there is real leadership shown by the loyalist/unionist politicians we will have to put up with it. Dialogue has taken place this year and compromises reached, this can only be a good thing.
Evey journey begins with a step.
Thanks smikspice...are u gonna contribute any shots? All welcome sure its a bit o craic
http://www.flickr.com/groups/everyday_orange/Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 12:45 PMBilly Pilgrim.
I think one of the main reasons they do it, is for exactly the story you relate. There is far too many uppity fenians/non-Loyalists, whatever about. They need to let people know who the bosses are, this allows the oh so dignified more mature gang members in the OO to strut their stuff along the road.
Tourism anyone, oh was the tumbleweed a blow in from Europe.
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 12:53 PMA little of thread perhaps but i was around their yesterday and went past the site of the Kimberly Bar which has been thankfully been demolished.
The red hoarding around it is very eye catching.
I noticed some grafitti scribbled on it. Whether the irony was intended or not seeing as the Kimberly was a notorious loyalist drinking den where a number of people have been murdered.Fuck I’m Thirsty
I did laugh i have to say
Billy btw is the Errigle open?
Posted by on Jul 13, 2006 @ 01:18 PM
