Marxism and the Roman Catholic Church have rarely flourished side by side, but they do have the mutual distinction of being dictatorial, stifling of individual thought and personal freedom and ultimately corrupt.
The thoroughly depressing TV programme on North Korea last night illustrates Sinn Fein aspirations at their most extreme, yet the death grip the RC church exerted on the Irish Republic for decades is scarcely more uplifting.
If Ireland as an entity is to lift itself into the 21st Century, it must reject both religious zealatory and extreme socialism. To do otherwise will condemn this little island to yet another miserable quagmire.

I'd add extreme capitalism (in fact simply extremism of any kind) to that wee wish list G lvs C!

Circles -- Extreme anything isn't nice, and capitalism is no exception, but I've yet to see the US needlessly starving it's population, murdering thousands of it's own 'dissidents', outlawing freedom of speech & religious belief or preventing it's own citizens from leaving the country.

Gerry lvs Castro seems to dedicate his time and energies to an extremely pro-unionist stance that has the distinction of being consistently anti-communist...whats the point GLC? Communism is a busted flush, nobody cares about your personal little obsession...its 2005 not 1985, get a life.

Redaing GLCs post it is not too hard to see how the troubles got started.

He remarks that "Marxism and the Roman Catholic Church have rarely flourished side by side, but they do have the mutual distinction of being dictatorial, stifling of individual thought and personal freedom and ultimately corrupt."

I would be broadly against organizsed religion but the hatred in that post is frankly nauseating (and not a little worrying).

If someone spewed some similiar invective about the wee frees (and it would not be difficult to come up with some equally truthful but utterly unhelpful criticisms) they would be rightly be criticised as a raving bigot.

Finally as regards the historical crimes of marxists the experience in South America (or indeed Indonesia, where they killed perhaps a million communists in the name of social stabiity) seems to indicate that those on the right have an equally proud history of the organized culling of their citizens. But thats ok, right? They were fighting for the fundamental freedom of the rich to exploit the poor.

How come this thread has moved so quickly and comprehensively away from substance to the politics of one poster? Please desist, and get back to politics!

Gerry lvs Castro seems to dedicate his time and energies to an extremely pro-unionist stance that has the distinction of being consistently anti-communist...whats the point GLC?

Assuming you don't object to a pro-union view levitas (there are roughly 800 000 in NI who subscribe to it), my anti-communist views are solidly with respect to Sinn Fein. Whether you regard it as a personal obsession or not, the republican movement has a long history of siding with the far left -- my slugger nom de plume indicates the SF admiration for Castro, which even extended to the party appointing an 'envoy' to a country with some of the worst human rights abuses of recent times. They have recorded contacts with the North Korean regime, their recent Colombian activities involved the marxist farc guerillas and their MEPs have joined the EU communist grouping. Their politics is decidedly of the 'revolutionary social agitation' anti-capitalist variety.
Whether you regard any of these points as being of significance is up to you.

If someone spewed some similiar invective about the wee frees (and it would not be difficult to come up with some equally truthful but utterly unhelpful criticisms) they would be rightly be criticised as a raving bigot.

Sorry to disappoint shay, but were the 'wee frees' ever to gain the position that the RC church acheived in Ireland, we'd all be just as badly off if not worse -- I doubt a nation where Sunday sport was a criminal offence, alcohol was banned and everyone trooped to their local place of worship to be lecturing on fire, brimstone and bigotry would be much fun either.
Fortunately this is never going to happen, and I would be the very last person to want it to.
As regards your suggestion that somehow I'm a bigot for stating the obvious; that the RC church is ''dictatorial, stifling of individual thought and personal freedom and ultimately corrupt.", I'd be more than happy to debate these points with you anytime, anyplace anywhere. I doubt many RCs would argue with any of the above points either.
I think you may have misunderstood my particular stance -- like yourself I'm against all organised religion, which ultimately leads to too much power being concentrated in the hands of the fanatical.

''those on the right have an equally proud history of the organized culling of their citizens. But thats ok, right?''

No it certainly isn't OK. There is no perfect system of govt, but given the choice of an (admittedly flawed) democratic govt allowing freedom of speech, movement, religious expression (yes allow it but don't abuse it) and wealth creation, and a stalinist regime complete with secret police, genocide of it's own citizens and the freedom to move anything up to 10 miles from your collectivised hovel, I know which I'd choose.

How come this thread has moved so quickly and comprehensively away from substance to the politics of one poster? Please desist, and get back to politics!

Must be my charisma Mick -- they can't resist it.

Pol's point seems a liitle self evident to even argue about.

The politcal/philosophical position of the RC church is not a good fit with republican ideology.

In fact the current Pope Benedict made weeding out liberation theologists and other lefty fellow travellers from the RC hierarchy and educational establishments a big part of his job while director of the congregation for the doctrine of the faith and the last Pope was a pretty serious anti-communist as well (though he did visit Cuba, didn't he?)

Finally and most importantly any time I read a post that displays outrageous religious bigotry you can be assured it will get a response. History's lessons Mick - learn them.

''a post that displays outrageous religious bigotry''

Shay -- Again I would challenge you to refute any of my points above regarding the RC church. They apply equally to islam and fundamentalist protestantism.

Tell you what GLC, bigotry is a pretty stiff and hurtful accusation for me to make about you and I am old enough to know better.

If in future you might try to replace your use of RC as a comparison religion with a phrase like perhaps "centrally run abrahamic religions" (or something more elegant) then I will attempt not to rush over the top of the trench of reason and compare you to any major historical figure with blood on their hands.

Can we both agree that Methodists seem very reasonable?

Fairs dos shay -- vitriolic I may be but bigotted I am not.
My attack on the RC church occurred both due to the subject of the thread and the fact that in terms of religious organisations, they are an extremely justified if all too easy target.
I would agree that Methodists do appear to represent the 'mostly harmless' branch of abrahamic religion, and it was impossible not to feel sympathy for the hapless Harry Good the other evening as his chum Alex fouled up the whole 'witness to history' shebang in quite spectacular fashion.

Amazingly GLC I was not genuinely thinking of Harry Good, decomissioning or NI in general or particular when being nice about Methodists. I just like the ones I have met.

Can we get back to fighting now?

Actually I have nothing further to say of interest on this topic (even in my mind) so adieu to Pol.