I'm confused as to why RL cares given his recent attacks on the Northern Ireland team and his hostility towards anyone who utters the words "Northern Ireland" :\

"He argues that making Windsor Park a warm place for Catholics should be an important objective for Northern Ireland matches"

The objective of Football For All is to make Windsor Park a warm place for everyone. It's not just Catholics who were put off Northern Ireland when their matches were viewed by some as an extension of supporting Linfield and an excuse for a sectarian singsong or two.

There's nothing in his comments that are particularly eye-opening although one would be foolsih not to question what appears almost to be an assumption that making Windsor Park hospitable would encourage many from west Belfast to give their allegiance to 'the North'.

In fact I'd go so far as to say it would be foolish as well as foolsih!

Arguing about who does, and who doesn't, go to watch the NI soccer team is one thing.. and we already know Robin's opinion on that.. not even airline stewardesses, if they have the wrong accent, escape Robin's baleful glance.

As for..

"I say that because Belfast Celtic no longer operate, many young local lads are lost to football. For many of them it's a case of if they cannot join the green and whites they would rather not play for anyone."

Really? Somehow I doubt that.. seems more like another one of Robin's rants.

Look, it's not a situation unique to NI. There are many more avenues for young people to seek to succeed in, all over Europe, than in Robin's time.. or, indeed, mine.

Pete,

I was quoting Tully in 1958, not Livingstone in 2005.

Oops.

My bad. :)

My final point still stands though, both for potential players and potential fans.

Just to add.. and I'm not, in spite of what some may think, a fan.. but it's really quite sad that he can't actually bring himself to type the words "Northern Ireland".

Just a thought.

Mick,
You missed one interesting line from Livingstone's piece:

"the stark fact is that the Irish team doesn't need Rangers fans, Prods, unionists, or whatever you want to call them."

Make of that what you will, but it doesn't sound very "inclusive" to me.

It does not matter how "inclusive" the games become, Livingstone and the vast majority of committed Republicans/Nationalists will never be interested in supporting N.Ireland. Why then should we bother too much about their opinions on a team that they ultimately want to destroy?

The Football for All Campaign and the efforts of many decent supporters to make N.Ireland matches more friendly and welcoming should be continued, not to win political brownie points with the likes of Livingstone, but because they are the right and moral policies to follow.

Belfast Celtic left the Irish League at the end of the 1948-49 season, not 1947-48.

RL is incorrect to say that the Irish Republic is 98% Catholic. In fact it was 92% Catholic in the 2002 Census and the figure is falling due to immigration. It also appears to surprise him that there is a Rangers Supporters club in Dublin. I can't see why - Dublin is large and diverse city which draws on people from lots of different palces.

Paul

The RL quote you give, namely:

"the stark fact is that the Irish team doesn't need Rangers fans, Prods, unionists, or whatever you want to call them."

is revealing for a second reason. Look at the second half of that phrase.

The bit "or whatever you want to call them" suggests that he believes the terms "prods, unionists and Rangers fans" are interchangable so all unionists are Rangers fans are protestant.

I wonder why Robin Livingstone is so concerned about the number of Roman Catholics who attend NI football matches, while remaining quite unconcerned about the number of Protestants who attend and/or play Gaelic games.

Should Mr Livingstone not be noting that, since all sports codes are in competition for new players and that, as things stand, few Protestants are making their way to any GAA venues either to play or watch?

Should making GAA venues and Gaelic games themselves a warm place for Protestants not be an important objective for the GAA?

Should he not be noting that most parts (i.e. Protestant parts) of the city in which Mr Livingstone doesn't live, and which together have a huge population, not a single person goes to any GAA venues to support or play Gaelic games. He might expect to find one or two if he looked hard enough, but is that degree of apathy – hostility, even – among half of the population not ultimately unsustainable? Does it not terrify potential sponsors, advertisers and broadcasters?

No?

Maybe Mr Livingstone is biased or something?

Fair point, Willowfield. However, there is the difference in that the GAA is bigger than just NI and sponsors are queueing up to get involved e.g the waiting list for corporate boxes in Croke Park whereas the IFA is by definition limited to NI. The GAA have an advantage over the FAI as well in that a lot of corporate money will only go to soccer in the ROI if the international team are successful.

The next move for the GAA is to try and attract NI Prods and this will be a long gradual process. Although there are a lot of other counties who mightn't be so keen, think of what Tyrone and Armagh would be like if they could pick from all the population instead of just the Taigs!

Windsor, a ground which makes Lansdowne look like the Stade de France.

So either Robin has been inside Windsor Park to see for himself, or he's basing his own view on second-hand opinion.

Wonder which...

Gonzo

"So either Robin has been inside Windsor Park to see for himself, or he's basing his own view on second-hand opinion."

He has been to the ground - for an NI game against Norway - as he wrote in one of his many earlier pieces on the NI team.

Tochais Síoraí,

"The next move for the GAA is to try and attract NI Prods and this will be a long gradual process"

Why does it have to be long and gradual?

Are the GAA operating any equivalent to the "Football for All Campiagn" or outreach into the state schools in NI? I kind of hope someone is going to show me that they are. It would be great if I could start to support Down knowing that people from my community will soon start to be competing for places in their football and hurley teams.

'Of course, people don't have to cast their minds back too far to remember that Rangers winger Peter Lovenkrands got similar treatment when the Republic of Ireland played Denmark in Dublin. There's one crucial difference, though. Much and all as it would stir the heart to see the blue of Rangers beside the green hoops of Celtic in the crowd at Lansdowne Road, the stark fact is that the Irish team doesn't need Rangers fans, Prods, unionists, or whatever you want to call them'

I'd be interested to know why this important and telling section from Livingston's boring old rant wasn't deemed worthy of reporting in the opening section of this thread?...

Paul, have you any examples of where a state school in NI invited the GAA into their school. If there are any, I'd be extremely pissed off if the GAA didn't respond positively.

Tochais Síoraí
I've no idea.
The GAA obviously has a presence all over NI, not just the Republican heartlands. There are many mixed areas(eg Carryduff) where I would have thought this kind of approach would be possible. Who should be responsible for making the first approach the school or the local club? The more important question is if there is some kind of strategy in place to increase "non-traditional" participants in GAA. As far as I know there isn't.

Yawn Yawn Yawn Yawn

Northern Ireland fans are sectarian scum

blah blah blah blah

I'm sure both John Hartson and Peter Lovenkrands are/were big enough to take the abuse - its football for goodness sake.

As for Neil Lennon - when did he ever play a good game for Northern Ireland? When did he ever look like he wanted to be there? I was glad when lennon stopped playing - not because of religion or his employers but because he was simply rubbish for Northern Ireland.

The atmosphere at Windosr Park has changed immeasurably from 10 or even 5 years ago and that is good. But people need to stop being concerned about who comes to NI matches. Nationalists support the Republic, Unionists support Northern Ireland - its a political rather than religious fact - get over it

Iluvni,

At risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, it's a view. Not a definative one. But one that comes with important historical context.

The word pragmatic is important. In contrast to New Zealand say, Northern Ireland is highly ecletic in its sporting obsessions. Surely it is reasonable that any sporting code should seek to maximise its appeal?

Perhaps Mick, but you can't be seriously imagining that Livingston has anything but contempt for Northern Ireland and despite what efforts are made to improve the atmosphere at Windsor and widen the appeal of the team to more than just the hardcore support who followed when it wasn't fashionable, this man with an agenda will never, once, ever, give any remote semblance of support to the team.

His rants aren't objective and I'm surprised his views are given any credence whatsoever by you on Slugger.
He, like yer man from Portadown (who'll no doubt have a letter in the Sunday Times tomorrow), doesn't care about reporting anything constructive. The rant about Prods etc at Lansdowne though shows the real mindset.

(Not sure why you felt the need to remove a similar comment off my previous contribution. Your call of course)

I have not claimed that his account was objective. Subjectivity has immense value, if it's traded off against other accounts.

The part of your post that I removed was for playing the man.

Willow
"few Protestants are making their way to any GAA venues either to play or watch?
Should making GAA venues and Gaelic games themselves a warm place for Protestants not be an important objective for the GAA?"

Are you talking only about NI here? If so then you certainly have a point.

Paul
"Are the GAA operating any equivalent to the "Football for All Campiagn" or outreach into the state schools in NI?"

I doubt it. But they certainly should be operating something like that up North.

It's refreshing to hear a comment like that from a GAA fan maca. Sadly though this whole thread has turned into a 'whatbout the gaa' thread.

Completely irrelevant. If anything, instead of crying "whatabout", football fans should be grateful for the opportunity to develop its fanbase and playerbase without the added competition a cross-community GAA would bring to the table.

He, like yer man from Portadown (who'll no doubt have a letter in the Sunday Times tomorrow), doesn't care about reporting anything constructive.

Posted by: iluvni at October 16, 2005 12:40 AM

I should have had a bet on that really, should't I!

Tochais Sorai

Fair point, Willowfield.

Thanks.

However, there is the difference in that the GAA is bigger than just NI and sponsors are queueing up to get involved e.g the waiting list for corporate boxes in Croke Park whereas the IFA is by definition limited to NI.

So it's all right to be for one-religion only if you're organised on an all-Ireland basis? Right.

And the IFA is bigger than the Antrim Council, the Down Council, etc. They are limited to those areas, so his arguments against the IFA apply against the GAA at county level.

The next move for the GAA is to try and attract NI Prods and this will be a long gradual process.

Why have they never done so in the past? And do you really think there is any desire to do so now? There are no indications.

Livingstone and his ilk, (ie, agitating republicans sworn to see the demise of Northern Ireland and, in consequence, it's football team) are not wanted or welcome at Windsor Park.

It would be akin to deciding to breed woodworm in your attic.

They have as much interest in the well being of the Northern Ireland team as my arse has in snipe shooting.

Let them whinge and gurn all they like to their own audience...they cannot and will not change a thing.

Willowfield,
the GAA is organised on a one-culture only basis rather than a one-religion only one. The thing about NI is that religion and culture are so intertwined.

It's not the GAA's job to create an organisation that can attract norhtern Protestants for the sake of it, its job is to promote Irish pastimes, culture and language.

Protesants interested in the Irish pastimes, culture and language that the GAA promotes are few and far between north of the border.

They have made it perfectly clear that they are far more interested in British culture. That's their perogative.

You may argue that the aren't interested because they feel they are excluded, while others argue that they have willingly excluded themselves as they consider it an alien culture.

George

the GAA is organised on a one-culture only basis rather than a one-religion only one.

Oh, well that's all right, then!

In Ireland, and especially Northern Ireland, one "culture" effectively means "one religion", though, George!

It's not the GAA's job to create an organisation that can attract norhtern Protestants for the sake of it, its job is to promote Irish pastimes, culture and language.

Sorry, but if the GAA wants to move out of the monocultural bunker, it will have to make it its job to appeal to ALL Irishmen and women, and not just those who fit into the Catholic/nationalist box. They can promote "Irish pastimes, culture and language" all they want, but they should do so to ALL Irish people, not just Catholic/nationalists.

(PS. If their role is really to promote "Irish pastimes, culture and language", why do they only seem to promote Gaelic sports?)

Protesants interested in the Irish pastimes, culture and language that the GAA promotes are few and far between north of the border.

That is irrelevant. They should not be excluded, no matter how small their number. Also, surely the GAA should want to increase the number? (Also, I note that, implicit in your response, you acknowledge that the GAA only promotes certain particular types of "pastimes, culture and language".)

They have made it perfectly clear that they are far more interested in British culture. That's their perogative.

That doesn't mean that they should be excluded from Gaelic games.

You may argue that the aren't interested because they feel they are excluded, while others argue that they have willingly excluded themselves as they consider it an alien culture.

Why would you want to exclude them, George?

'It's not the GAA's job to create an organisation that can attract norhtern Protestants for the sake of it, its job is to promote Irish pastimes, culture and language'

but when they receive Government handouts, they should be required to demonstrate their efforts to reach out and appeal to all sections of our communtiy here in northern Ireland...not just one section.

Willowfield,
"Oh, well that's all right, then!"

the GAA is a cultural organisation with clear goals so why extend its remit to also become some kind of social worker for a messed up society? It's entitled to have these aims.

I said in Northern Ireland, one "culture" effectively means "one religion" but that is the problem of Northern Ireland not the GAA. You can't blame the GAA because many people in Northern Ireland can't differentiate their religion from their culture.

"Sorry, but if the GAA wants to move out of the monocultural bunker, it will have to make it its job to appeal to ALL Irishmen and women, and not just those who fit into the Catholic/nationalist box.
(PS. If their role is really to promote "Irish pastimes, culture and language", why do they only seem to promote Gaelic sports?)"

The GAA is there to promote Gaelic culture. What parts of Gaelic culture is it missing in your view that isn't being promoted elsewhere by another organisation? I believe you are wrong about the Catholic box. It is just that you come from a world where Gaelic culture is considered exclusively Catholic.

"That is irrelevant. They should not be excluded, no matter how small their number."

What parts of northern Protestant Gaelic culture do you want added? What parts are excluded?

"That doesn't mean that they should be excluded from Gaelic games."

Do you not think that many actually exclude themselves?

"Why would you want to exclude them, George?"

I don't. I grew up in Dublin but the GAA was totally excluded from my upbringing not by the GAA but my upbringing. I would say it is the same for many northern Protestants.

When I wanted to enter the GAA world in the very small way that I have in my adulthood, I found the door was open and the welcome warm.

But then again, I feel myself Irish and part of the Irish nation and don't have an issue with the tricolour, national anthem or Irish language.

It is there for those who want to celebrate and enjoy Gaelic culture.

Iluvni,
the horse racing lobby in the Irish Republic got 200 million over five years for its sport. Does that mean it has to do things that appeal to me? No.

Either does the GAA. 2 million people watched GAA games this year. That is their mandate for government support.

"It is there for those who want to celebrate and enjoy Gaelic culture."

ie, it is monocultural.

It does not promote "Irish Culture", it promotes one type of Irish culture.

Realist,
it is there to promote Gaelic culture, it is not there to promote all the cultures of Ireland.

If it was it would be call the Cultural Association of Ireland or some such like with one section concentrating on "British pastimes". It isn't so it doesn't.

Does the playing of gstq at n.i games not represent one section of the community

"it is there to promote Gaelic culture, it is not there to promote all the cultures of Ireland.

If it was it would be call the Cultural Association of Ireland or some such like with one section concentrating on "British pastimes". It isn't so it doesn't."

I am well aware of that George.

Realist,
so what's your problem?

From the G.A.A. Strategic Review.

"The primary role of the Gaelic Athletic Association is the development
and promotion of Gaelic games as a principal component of Irish identity and culture."

I really don't think the organisation can make its objectives any clearer.

Most Northern Protestants don't see the promotion of Gaelic Games as a principle component in their identity and culture. That's for them to decide.

If they did, they'd be setting up clubs of their own. Instead they are more likely to be members of organisations which promote Protestantism as a principle component in their identity and culture.

What part of Northern Protestant Gaelic culture is missing from the GAA that would encourage Northern Protestants to join?

"so what's your problem?"

No problem George.

"The problem" seems to be with members of the GAA who don't like it when they are reminded that the organisation is exclusionist, monocultural and xenophobic.

I admire your honesty.

Realist,
promoting a cultural identity does not make you xenophobic, exclusionist or monocultural, it makes you somebody who is promoting a cultural identity.

Xenophobia: There no fear or dislike in promotion.

Exclusion: There is no prevention in promotion.

Monocultural: There is nothing monocultural in promoting Gaelic games as a "principal" component in Irish cultural identity. There can be many principle components, this is the component the GAA is concerning itself with.

What's your problem?

What component Northern Protestant Gaelic culture would you like to see Northern Protestants promote?

George,

A read of the "Official Guide" of the GAA will reveal all you need to know about the xenophobia and monoculturalism "promoted" by the GAA.

It's puesdo political rantings will help you understand why those Irishmen and women of a unionist background cannot subscribe to it's "aims".

I have debated this at length on numerous previous threads and have no intention of getting involved in another prolonged circular debate.

"What component Northern Protestant Gaelic culture would you like to see Northern Protestants promote?"

You've lost me here...Rule 8(b) makes it abundantly clear that the GAA is "non sectarian".

I accept that, and therefore to promote "Protestant" culture would clearly be in breach of that rule.

In accepting that rule, I ask that you accept every other word in the "Official Guide" to be the GAA "gospel".

You aren't insinuating that the GAA is a Catholic Gaelic culture focused organisation are you?

Does the playing of gstq at n.i games not represent one section of the community
Posted by: fran at October 16, 2005 05:07 PM
No.

Iluvni,
the horse racing lobby in the Irish Republic got 200 million over five years for its sport. Does that mean it has to do things that appeal to me? No.
Either does the GAA. 2 million people watched GAA games this year. That is their mandate for government support.
Posted by: George at October 16, 2005 04:49 PM

Not in Northern Ireland, it isn't...or at least it shouldn't be if the likes of the Sports Council had the balls to ask them to demonstrate their cross-community efforts like they do other sports organisations.

Realist,
why should I bother either then. I have tried to keep out of the usual pitfalls but when I have tackled you honestly you have trotted out the xenophobia guff and then jumped straight in to old circular arguments, which seem to be all based on this infamous archaic rule book which I have never seen. At least, you've had the good grace not to bring up this GAA club of ex-prisoners.

I can only talk of my experiences and what I see on the ground. For example, having nothing to do with the GAA all my life but finding no problem with them or nobody asking about religion when I did start having a look. Or the PSNI beating UCD last week at Belfield, Jayo, Sean Og etc.

I would love to know what do you want see in the GAA. I think it's clear what you want out. What do you want in?

I use the term Protestant Gaelic culture because from what I see cultural identity north of the border is predicated on religion. It's also what every second NI Protestant seems to intimate.

But if you aren't one of them, I'll happily rephrase:

What part of Unionist Gaelic culture is missing from the GAA for you?

Is the archaic guide book all that's stopping northern unionists from immersing themselves in the GAA?

Maybe there are a lot of Catholics in the GAA but a lot of that has to do with the fact that 88% of the Republic is Catholic and Northern Protestants doing other things to promote their own identity.

As I said, it had no impact on my upbringing but that doesn't make the GAA a Catholic organisation.

Where I grew up, people didn't want to join the GAA, they didn't feel excluded. I suppose that's the difference: southern culture isn't predicated on religion.

Maybe up north, where culture and religion are so intertwined, it is, but that's NI not the GAA.

Does the playing of gstq at n.i games not represent one section of the community
Posted by: fran at October 16, 2005 05:07 PM
No.

How is it inclusive

Kudos to Fran for trying to return this thread to what it was actually about in the first place. But alas, dare to criticise the Northern Ireland football team and immediately that good old supposedly sectarian GAA has to be brought into it to counterbalance any criticism. They're all republicans, you know....they keep their coal in the bath and they eat ulster protestant children after dark etc. etc.

willowfield

Attracting loyalists/unionists to the GAA is more like attracting nationalists to cricket. We don't know the game very well.

But in the north you have a lot of people who like soccer who don't support the NI team.

So it should in theory be easier. But to be honest I already support another international team and making me switch would not be easy. It would be like Man City trying to win Man Utd fans.

I think what we should all be doing is trying to make sport less of a political issue.

George,

The Rule Book (Official Guide)is the "gospel".

You may not have read it, but you might be interested to know that as a member of the GAA you are "deemed to have full knowledge" and are "bound" by the rules and regulations contained therein.

I have previously suggested changes that I would wish to see as an Irishman of the unionist type implemented in order to feel comfortable enough to "subscribe" to join.

Basically, the removal of the "archaic" puesdo political guff that permutates it's opening pages and a change to the "Basic Aim"of the Association...I offered an alternative wording on a recent thread!

Amendment of Rule 16 in relation to matches played within the juristiction of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

Removal of the Irish Language "requirements" pertaining to documentation.

Clamping down on teams and trophies being named after republican terrorists...eg, the premier kids cup in Tyrone is named after two brothers killed whilst on Provo "active service"...that "active service" undertaken by Provos often meant the murder and maiming of fellow Irishmen and women.

A total disassociation from political matters which divide, not unite, the people of this island.

So, it's not so much "what is missing", more what is already in there that needs to be amended IMO.

Will that do for starters?

"'It's not the GAA's job to create an organisation that can attract norhtern Protestants for the sake of it, its job is to promote Irish pastimes, culture and language'

but when they receive Government handouts, they should be required to demonstrate their efforts to reach out and appeal to all sections of our communtiy here in northern Ireland...not just one section."

Do you think the Orange Order should "reach out" to the Catholic community by talking to residents groups? Pity they don't seem to think so.

The GAA is an organisation dedicated to the promotion of Gaelic/Irish culture. That alone does not make it sectarian. Unionism thinks that its 2500 parades celebrating Protestant victories over Catholics are not sectarian, but that GAMES within the confines of a stadium or park is sectarian. What nonsense.

At least the GAA doesn't ban players from marrying Protestants, unlike the OO ban on members marrying Catholics. At least the GAA doesn't ban Protestant members, unlike the OO which bans Catholic members.

Simply being an organisation that supports Irish culture is not sectarian.

That's a most revealing comparison you make there Mr Boru.

The OO and the GAA.

Doersn't do you case a whole heap of good, I would respectfully suggest.

oops, Brian Boru

I was drawing a distinction between the two organisations. Seems to me that the labelling of the GAA as "sectarian" by Unionists partly reflects "whataboutery" following Nationalist criticism of the OO. I was pointing out there is no comparison.

"Seems to me that the labelling of the GAA as "sectarian" by Unionists partly reflects "whataboutery" following Nationalist criticism of the OO."

Brian,

If you read my comments closely (see above), I have been at pains to say that I do not believe the GAA to be a religiously sectarian organisation...it expressly states same in Rule 8 (b).

I am an Irishman, a unionist and no fan of the OO.

Your post smacks of "whataboutery" and is most revealing.

A big 3 pointer OG.

"Simply being an organisation that supports Irish culture is not sectarian."

But being an organisation that also supports irish nationalist political positions had that potential, when the catholic church and irish nation were more closely identified.

A question which I asked last night, but nobody has answered yet:

Does the GAA in N.Ireland have any kind of outreach programme to the state schools?
If not, why not?

I'm obviously not saying it would work in every area, but it would be proof that it's starting to move outside its parochial( in both senses of the word)boundaries.

Until the Anthem, flag and chanting is addressed

Talk of inclusiveness is a non story

Why a 'long gradual process', because nothing happens in NI quickly, haven't ye learned that much?

Listened to an interview with members of the PSNI GAA team this evening. A small step forward. Clubs like these are the way forward where NI protestants might feel more comfortable joining than going down to their local club (where they'd probably receive a welcome but it might be awkward on both sides). Think outside the box a wee bit, maybe the GAA could organise Ulster inter-firm tournaments (or something where players would be representing something other than GAA clubs)where a certain % of a team's players had to be 'new' i.e never played before.

As for the trappings of culture etc, it isn't a big deal in the Republic and over time won't be such a big deal in NI either given half a chance.

(Wasn't this supposed to be a NI Soccer piece? maybe MF should give a YC to those of us, inc me, who go off topic)

George - you keep on quoting the GAA as promoting "Irish culture", but when you use your own words, you keep on referring to "Gaelic culture". Surely "Irish culture" is far wider than just "Gaelic culture", so your search for "Protestant Gaelic culture" is unneccessarily pessimistic?

Dave
"...chanting is addressed"

Of course you'll have to expand on that, like a good lad.

TS
"Think outside the box a wee bit"

Of course there's nothing wrong with getting a few unaffialated clubs going, just to introduce the sports to the protestant communities. If they like the sports, and the GAA can make some changes then perhaps they could work from there...

george is quite right- the GAA isn't there for our culture and so we can't complain that it doesn't reach out to Protestants. Where we can complain is when when the manifestation of that culture is in terms threatening to our culture- as in , for example, naming trophies, and clubs after IRA members

But as for Mr Livingstone's whinge, let's just recall the organisation he is commenting upon. The IRISH Football Association founded in 1880 before partition, playing in emerald green (after a period of using St Patrick's or Leinster Blue) with a badge of a celtic cross and four shamrocks- the original badge also having a harp. Until 1950 it selected players from Dublin, Cork etc and called itself Ireland. The reason this practice came to an end was a threat from the FAI not to pick dual internationalists, and thus the name became Northern Ireland-so if Robin dsoesn't like it he has to blame the FAI

It's the only one of the pre-partition sporting bodies which split, as far as I am aware, and did so because certain politicians in the south couldn't tolerate an Irish sporting body being governed from Belfast.

Every single symbolic aspect of the IFA is Irish, almost nationalist, and if the IFA hadn't a copyright on the badge you can bet the FAI would have snaffled it instead of the ghastly abortion it currently sports. The strange thing is, all those huns, jaffas, Orangies, have no problem with donning green, noone complains about the badge, and most are well aware of our status as the true guardians of irish football.

Contrast this with the overarching sensitivity of many nationalists to virtually any British symbol in courts, on pillar boxes in Dublin etc. If the IFA is so sectarian, wouldn't they have pandered to the prejudices of the bigots, renamed themselves Ulster, kited the team in red white and blue,(away kit- orange , natch) and designed a badge with the red hand prominently featuring?

I'm not point scoring here- I genuinely believe that the iconography of the IFA, and the willingness of a Shankill Road Blueman to embrace it, is one of the more creditible incidences of cross cultural symbols is actually quite hopeful, and a factor that nationalists have to addres instead of all the "Windsor park theatre of hate" rubbish so woodenly written about by Robin

"true guardians of Irish football"

LOL.

"george is quite right- the GAA isn't there for our culture and so we can't complain that it doesn't reach out to Protestants. Where we can complain is when when the manifestation of that culture is in terms threatening to our culture- as in , for example, naming trophies, and clubs after IRA members"

You mean the Old IRA (1919-21) as opposed to the Anti-Treaty IRA and its descendents (PIRA, RIRA. OIRA, CIRA). Michael Collins was not a terrorist in the eyes of Nationalist Ireland. The Old SF won nearly all the seats in the 26 counties and also Fermanagh and most of Tyrone back then. The Irish nationalist people - especially in the South - are entitled to celebrate the founders of our State. The US celebrates George Washington via the Wsshington monument and the name of its capital city. Why should Irish nationalism not celebrate the founders of Southern Irish independence?

no brian- I mean the current lot- as in the Kevin Lynch GAA club in Dungiven named after the late hunger striker, and the Mairead Farrell trophy in Belfast named after the failed Gibraltar bomber. perhaps you will concede that there is an insensitivity of Alec Reid proportions in naming clubs after people who tried to murder fellow irishmen, or indeed the monkeys on Gibraltar?

'the cattle mart masquerading as a football ground that is Lansdowne Road'

Filed on 17 October 2005

http://www.irishrugby.ie/newspage/65026.html

"true guardians of Irish football"

LOL.

Posted by: maca at October 17, 2005 12:15 PM

not a Chelski fan are you maca? You can't invent tradition

How about a new anthwm - sing GSTQ in Irish? That would confuse a lot of people :)

Realist,
I'm not and never have been a member of the GAA. Good grief man, that would indicate that I am active and actually really care :-)

I know what you want to remove from the GAA but I asked what do you want to add. What's missing culturally for you?

I have to say one thing, I find it incredible that you want the Irish language requirements removed. That after all is the most basic part of Gaelic culture. I think, if anything, they should strengthen them. How can you promote Gaelic culture and pastimes without promoting the langauge? Makes no sense to me.

Gaelic cultural pastimes without the Irish language is a bit like soccer without the ball, don't you think.

Reader,
I wrote that the GAA concerns itself with Gaelic culture and promoting it as "a principle component" of Irish cultural identity, not "the principle component".

As I said, there are other strings to the Irish cultural bow. Where I grew up in Dunlaoghaire, there was no fear of the GAA and no feelings of exclusion.

There was no GAA either because nobody I knew was interested. Didn't make us feel any less Irish.

Unfortunately, in Northern culture, religion and constitutional stance seem to be all intertwined.

George,

"I find it incredible that you want the Irish language requirements removed. That after all is the most basic part of Gaelic culture. I think, if anything, they should strengthen them. How can you promote Gaelic culture and pastimes without promoting the langauge? Makes no sense to me."

On the issue of the Gaelic language, it clearly discriminates against those who are not taught the language (ie the vast majority of Unionists on the island) that certain documents must be signed in Gaelic.

I understand that players names must be registered centraly in the Gaelic language too.

Why not have it open to both...English or Gaelic?

Brian Boru,

"You mean the Old IRA (1919-21) as opposed to the Anti-Treaty IRA and its descendents (PIRA, RIRA. OIRA, CIRA)"

The main Under 11 (ie, kids) trophy in Co Tyrone is named after two Provos killed on "active service" in the 1980's...The Harte Memorial Trophy.

The Provos were, of course, responsible for the death, torture, beating and exiling of hundreds of Irishmen and women.

Is that Gaelic/Irish "Culture"?

Absolutely repugnant.

George,

"I find it incredible that you want the Irish language requirements removed. That after all is the most basic part of Gaelic culture. I think, if anything, they should strengthen them. How can you promote Gaelic culture and pastimes without promoting the langauge? Makes no sense to me."

On the issue of the Gaelic language, it clearly discriminates against those who are not taught the language (ie the vast majority of Unionists on the island) that certain "official" documents must be signed in Gaelic.

My understanding is that players names must be registered centrally in the Gaelic language too.

Why not have it open to both...English or Gaelic?

Brian Boru,

"You mean the Old IRA (1919-21) as opposed to the Anti-Treaty IRA and its descendents (PIRA, RIRA. OIRA, CIRA)"

The premier Under 11 (ie, kids) trophy in Co Tyrone is named after two Provos killed on "active service" in the 1980's...The Harte Memorial Trophy.

Hardly "old" IRA!

The Provos were, of course, responsible for the death, torture, beating and exiling of hundreds of Irishmen and women.

Is that Gaelic/Irish "Culture"?

Indoctrinating young children with such extreme sentiments...Absolutely repugnant.

George
"I find it incredible that you want the Irish language requirements removed. That after all is the most basic part of Gaelic culture. I think, if anything, they should strengthen them. How can you promote Gaelic culture and pastimes without promoting the langauge?"

I agree with you. Though perhaps a certain degree of flexibility might be no harm.
All counties have (as far as I know) a language officer, I presume they are there to help with such issues? Do you know?
Anyway, I wouldn't consider this a big deal, I don't think the requirements would actually cause problems for clubs ...

Well, if it is true that certain GAA grounds are named after the PIRA, then naturally I am opposed to that. However, what some GAA members locally should not be used to tar the entire organisation with the one brush.

Willowfield

George said: "the GAA is organised on a one-culture only basis rather than a one-religion only one." You said: Oh, well that's all right, then!"

Yes, it is. Seriously, the GAA is a cultural organisation. It's mission statement is the promotion of GAELIC sports and culture. That's what it does. That's its role. It isn't the GAA's responsibility to cater for ALL cultures. It certainly isn't incumbent on the Gaelic Athletic Association to distance itself from Gaelic culture on the grounds that there are people in Ireland who hate Gaelic culture. The GAA is what it is, to be taken or left according to your tastes and values. Millions of Irish people love it. A minority does not. Such is life.

"In Ireland, and especially Northern Ireland, one "culture" effectively means "one religion", though."
You're right Willow, but frankly this is Ireland's problem, not the GAA's. It's up to the population at large to stop making this sectarian connection. I don't think it would help in any meaningful way if the GAA tried to change its fundamental value and turn itself into some sort of acultural mush. Ireland's Gaelic heritage is a fantastic thing, and the GAA is one of the greatest examples of that heritage. Ulster Protestants don't feel part of that heritage - I understand that. But in truth, there aren't any barriers preventing Ulster's Protestants from taking part in it.

"Sorry, but if the GAA wants to move out of the monocultural bunker, it will have to make it its job to appeal to ALL Irishmen and women, and not just those who fit into the Catholic/nationalist box. They can promote "Irish pastimes, culture and language" all they want, but they should do so to ALL Irish people, not just Catholic/nationalists."

What's wrong with a particular organisation devoting itself to the promotion of a single culture? It's not a public body, it's an autonomous organisation. It can't be expected to do everything. It's up to individuals to decide what they think of the organisation's priorities.

"That is irrelevant. They should not be excluded, no matter how small their number."

But they aren't excluded, they just feel as though they are. I would contend that those feelings are largely unjustified. Look, for example, at the PSNI's very welcome entry into the competitive arena of the Sigerson Cup. Great to see, and I think they have chosen the right tournament too. The standard is very high. When the time comes that they start entering some of the county leagues - from a purely sporting point of view, a couple of years down the line they should be ready - they could well make a significant impact. They had a very impressive win against UCD recently, I see. Apparently both sides were somewhat under-strength but still, UCD are one of the traditional big guns.
So I suppose the nub of the thing is this: Ulster's Protestants say they feel excluded but in truth the GAA is constantly saying, "come on in, the water's fine". What does it all mean? That some of Ulster's Protestants would love to jump in but are afraid they'll get ducked or something. That some would prefer to criticise the temperature or the chlorine content of the water rather than jump in. And that some others just flat out aren't interested. Fair enough.

But if you think you're excluded: trust me, you're not.

The level of Dooher's Irish when Tyrone won the All-Ireland or the lack of Irish spoken by Dublin players is evidence that you don't need the language to play GAA.

However, I still think the GAA as an organisation that promotes Gaelic culture is within its rights to demand its members make an effort to promote the language as best they can. The best promotion is to speak it.

I can't believe you would be thrown out of the GAA for not being able to speak Irish.

Maca,
I have no idea how GAA langauge officers work.

George
"The best promotion is to speak it."

One of the great pities is the lack of Irish spoken when accepting the All-Ireland cups. It's only once in a blue moon now that you hear a good acceptance speech in Irish.

"I can't believe you would be thrown out of the GAA for not being able to speak Irish."

Not a chance in hell.

‘One of the great pities is the lack of Irish spoken when accepting the All-Ireland cups. It's only once in a blue moon now that you hear a good acceptance speech in Irish.’

And it took a Cork Fijian!

George

the GAA is a cultural organisation with clear goals so why extend its remit to also become some kind of social worker for a messed up society? It's entitled to have these aims.

No-one's disputing that it's entitled to have whatever aims it wants. Please stay on topic. The questions are (a) in pursuing those aims, why does it exclude those who don't fit into the Catholic/nationalist box?; and (b) is it not counter-productive to those aims to restrict one's target audience to those in the box, thereby preventing the "culture" to be expanded outside the box?

I said in Northern Ireland, one "culture" effectively means "one religion" but that is the problem of Northern Ireland not the GAA. You can't blame the GAA because many people in Northern Ireland can't differentiate their religion from their culture.

You can blame the GAA for being a Catholic/nationalist-only sport. They choose to appeal only to one side of the divide and to exclude the other. They can be blamed for that.

The GAA is there to promote Gaelic culture.

Earlier, you said it was "Irish culture". You seem to be backtracking, but thanks for the clarification. Now, tell us why they exclude the unionist/Protestant community from that culture?

What parts of Gaelic culture is it missing in your view that isn't being promoted elsewhere by another organisation?

You said "Irish culture", not "Gaelic culture".

I believe you are wrong about the Catholic box. It is just that you come from a world where Gaelic culture is considered exclusively Catholic.

Er, the GAA is organised along Roman Catholic parish boundaries and its clubs are organised within Roman Catholic parishes and churches. It is wedded to Irish nationalism, which correlates broadly with the Roman Catholic community. It seems to me that the GAA is doing a good job of maintaining the link! Why is it not trying to break it down? Surely it is operating contrary to its own aims by excluding people and therefore preventing the spread of its sports?

"That is irrelevant. They should not be excluded, no matter how small their number."

What parts of northern Protestant Gaelic culture do you want added? What parts are excluded?

It's not "parts" of "Gaelic culture" that are excluded, it's people who are excluded.

Do you not think that many actually exclude themselves?

Not really, no. But even if that were so, there is no need to exclude the few because the many allegedly exclude themselves. What is the point?

I don't.

Then why defend the GAA's exclusion of unionist/Protestants?

But then again, I feel myself Irish and part of the Irish nation and don't have an issue with the tricolour, national anthem or Irish language.

There you go, then, you accept that unionists are excluded. Why do you defend this?

It is there for those who want to celebrate and enjoy Gaelic culture.

But you've just admitted that unionists are excluded. Why are they not allowed to "celebrate and enjoy Gaelic culture"?

From the G.A.A. Strategic Review. "The primary role of the Gaelic Athletic Association is the development and promotion of Gaelic games as a principal component of Irish identity and culture."

And how can they do that if they exclude a significant number of Irish people?

Most Northern Protestants don't see the promotion of Gaelic Games as a principle component in their identity and culture. That's for them to decide.

What if they do? Why should those who do be exluded?

If they did, they'd be setting up clubs of their own.

But they are excluded from the GAA.

promoting a cultural identity does not make you xenophobic, exclusionist or monocultural, it makes you somebody who is promoting a cultural identity.

It makes you exclusionist if you exclude people while doing your promoting.

Exclusion: There is no prevention in promotion.

So why does the GAA exclude unionist/Protestants?

Henry94

Attracting loyalists/unionists to the GAA is more like attracting nationalists to cricket. We don't know the game very well.

Except cricket doesn't exclude nationalists. The GAA excludes unionists. So it's not the same at all.

But in the north you have a lot of people who like soccer who don't support the NI team. So it should in theory be easier.

That'll be why so many nationalists play football, but so few unionists play GAA.

I think what we should all be doing is trying to make sport less of a political issue.

So are you encouraging the GAA to become inclusive and to stop excluding unionist/Protestants?

Brian Boru

The GAA is an organisation dedicated to the promotion of Gaelic/Irish culture. That alone does not make it sectarian.

Nobody said it does. But its exclusion of unionists/Protestants in so doing is. Why does it do this? That is the question.

Unionism thinks that its 2500 parades celebrating Protestant victories over Catholics are not sectarian, but that GAMES within the confines of a stadium or park is sectarian. What nonsense.

The games aren't sectarian: the organisation that runs them is.

At least the GAA doesn't ban players from marrying Protestants, unlike the OO ban on members marrying Catholics. At least the GAA doesn't ban Protestant members, unlike the OO which bans Catholic members.

The Orange Order is a sectarian organisation, and such bans are appropriate. Supposedly, the GAA is not, so why does it exclude unionists/Protestants?

Simply being an organisation that supports Irish culture is not sectarian.

No-one said it was. It is the exclusion of Protestants/unionists from the GAA that is sectarian.

Billy Pilgrim

George said: "the GAA is organised on a one-culture only basis rather than a one-religion only one." You said: Oh, well that's all right, then!" Yes, it is.

But George says that "one culture" = "one religion", therefore he is saying it's OK to organise the GAA for Roman Catholics only. And you think that's all right? I don't. I think it's terrible.

Seriously, the GAA is a cultural organisation. It's mission statement is the promotion of GAELIC sports and culture. That's what it does. That's its role.

But why does it exclude Protestants/unionists?

It isn't the GAA's responsibility to cater for ALL cultures.

So if someone from a "non-Gaelic" cultural background wanted to join the GAA, you think it's OK to exclude him or her?

It certainly isn't incumbent on the Gaelic Athletic Association to distance itself from Gaelic culture on the grounds that there are people in Ireland who hate Gaelic culture.

No-one said it was. The question is why do they exclude Protestants/unionists?

The GAA is what it is, to be taken or left according to your tastes and values. Millions of Irish people love it. A minority does not. Such is life.

But why do they exclude Protestants/unionists?

You're right Willow, but frankly this is Ireland's problem, not the GAA's.

It's the GAA's problem because the GAA effectively and needlessly excludes one religion. It's in their gift to change that.

It's up to the population at large to stop making this sectarian connection.

THere is a greater onus on the GAA to put its own house in order than on the population at large.

I don't think it would help in any meaningful way if the GAA tried to change its fundamental value and turn itself into some sort of acultural mush.

No-one's asking it to. Just stop excluding Protestants/unionists.

Ireland's Gaelic heritage is a fantastic thing, and the GAA is one of the greatest examples of that heritage. Ulster Protestants don't feel part of that heritage - I understand that.

Some may be. Why exclude them?

But in truth, there aren't any barriers preventing Ulster's Protestants from taking part in it.

There are. Many barriers. They should be removed.

What's wrong with a particular organisation devoting itself to the promotion of a single culture?

Nothing. What is wrong is their exclusion of a large section of the population.

But they aren't excluded, they just feel as though they are.

No. They are excluded.

I would contend that those feelings are largely unjustified.

Then you would be wrong.

So I suppose the nub of the thing is this: Ulster's Protestants say they feel excluded but in truth the GAA is constantly saying, "come on in, the water's fine".

That's not the truth. The GAA is actively doing nothing to attract Protestants. Nothing whatsoever.

Willowfield, you haven't specified what exactly about the GAA you find sectarian. Care to elaborate? There is no ban on Protestants joining. :)

Willow
"Er, the GAA is organised along Roman Catholic parish boundaries and its clubs are organised within Roman Catholic parishes and churches."

That's not exactly true. The basic unit is the club which can be in ANY cachment area with a minimum population (5000 I think), it makes no difference whether it's a parish or not.

Clearly th IFA have taken some measures to try and eradicate the sectarianism at Windsor Park.

The fans now sing 'rule britannia' rather than 'the sash', which is a slight improvement.

The 'no surrender' add on to god save the queen is still a big problem but i don't really see what the IFA can do to stop this.

The IFA cannot change the sectarian mindset of supporters overnight, it will take time to try and educate these supporters that they have to leave their prejudices outside the ground and make the stadium welcoming for all.

The football authorities are however powerless to stop incidents of sectarianism outside the ground.

Jim Boyce and co. have no control over supporters who, while travelling on supporters club buses, decide to attack a couple of 12 year olds with a barage of bottles because they are wearing Republic tops, for example.

Sectarianism needs to be addressed at ground level and not just within the sporting arena.

"Sectarianism needs to be addressed at ground level and not just within the sporting arena."

ron,

The disgraceful incident you refer to was highlighted on the ourweecountry website...by Northern Ireland fans.

Many incidents of a sectarian nature are highlighted by the fans there...Recently a thread entitled "Our very own scum" ran to 21 pages.

I find it encourageing that many NI fans are highlighting such incidents...Like myself, many are fed up to the back teeth with them.

Earlier in the thread, it was claimed that the GAA should not be held responsible for the actions of a few.

With regard to the incident you describe, it would be grossly unfair to label NI fans on the basis of the actions of a couple of lads on the back of a bus...who, incidently, have been identified, and will answer to their fellow fans for their actions.

You are absolutely correct...the IFA have no control over what goes on outside of the ground, but NI fans at "ground level" are increasingly trying to address these matters.

The first part of addressing them, is to not be in denial of them and to speak frankly about them.

Nobody will tell NI fans anything they don't know already about our problems.

It will be NI fans ultimately solve them...not our detractors.

Billy Pilgrim: "So I suppose the nub of the thing is this: Ulster's Protestants say they feel excluded but in truth the GAA is constantly saying, "come on in, the water's fine". "

Willowfield: "That's not the truth. The GAA is actively doing nothing to attract Protestants. Nothing whatsoever."

Ok, not to get technical, but there is a world of difference bewteen placing "many barriers" to Unionist participation and "doing nothing to attract Protestants." If there are "many barriers," Willowfield, could you name, oh, say, five or ten, just so we have some examples to work with -- your posts are rather vague on the problem, easily reduced to the repetition of "they're excluding Protestants." HOW are they excluding Protestants? Have they resorted to nail-studded two by fours, ala Papa Doc Paisley in the bad old days, or are they simply requiring some familiarity to Gaelic culture, such as the language requirement? Or, as your last statement seems to indicate, are they simply not going out of their way to attract/invite/entice Protestants/Unionists? If all they are doing is going about their business, promoting Gaelic culture (language, sport, etc) and have no structural barriers (have to be Catholic, etc.), then their worst sin is being a bit insular. Likewise, can you name anyone who has been turned away from the GAA? Perhaps an OO chapter whose application was denied or some such? Thus far, you're long on rhetoric and short of examples and facts.

Some of you may be interested in this Young Unionist blog item Well done to Rangers of Crossmaglen

On a related note I also noticed that the main UUP website had an item calling for people to get behind the Tyrone team in the all Ireland.

"On a related note I also noticed that the main UUP website had an item calling for people to get behind the Tyrone team in the all Ireland."

Good for them.

Maca

Here is the UUP page supporting the Tyrone GAA men: Stand Up for the Ulstermen on Sunday!

I see you have commenced battle over at the Young Unionists site.

"I see you have commenced battle over at the Young Unionists site."

Nothing on tv Slug, i'm bored.

Here is an interesting sectrion from the UUP page:

" The GAA have reached out to the Unionist community in recent years by lifting its ban on police and army officers from being GAA members and in allowing rugby and football to be played at Croke Park. Everyone should rally behind Tyrone and show solidarity with our fellow Ulstermen. The red hand of Ulster is Tyrone’s symbol and should be a symbol of pride capable of uniting Ulster people of all traditions.

“On Sunday stand up for the Ulstermen and stand up for Tyrone. Whatever the result we should all be proud of our Province’s sporting men and women."

Sport should not be political or exclusive. The GAA should get rid of it's political/exclusitivity; the Northern Ireland team is apolitical and has as many prod players as catholic - this is something to be promoted.

Sport should not be political or exclusive. The GAA should get rid of it's political/exclusitivity; the Northern Ireland team is apolitical and has as many prod players as catholic - this is something to be promoted.

the anthem and emblems at Windsor are pretty exclusive to one section of our community

Ron, this has nothing to do with the NI team. But I'll try and second-guess what you mean:

- The anthem is the anthem of our country (we are still in the UK didn't you know?). There is currently a debate internally to change the anthem to reflect more of 'NI' rather than a UK-generic anthem. God save the queen is not offensive unless you are a republican and you don't want God to save the queen. Yes as a Nationalist you may not have GSTQ on your Mp3 playlist - but it should not be offensive.

- Ok the other emblem I recon you mean is the union flag. Again this should not be offensive. The vast majority of Nationalists support Man U and other premership teams which you will see far more union flags - but these don't offend??? That would be like me saying I find the tricolour and soldier song offensive at the ROI matches.

Instead of supporting a cross-community NI team many Nationalists support the 'exclusive' ROI and find no irony in their blindness to the exclusive items on display there (inc celtic tops etc)

AS
"Instead of supporting a cross-community NI team many Nationalists support the 'exclusive' ROI and find no irony in their blindness"

Funny you mention blindness.
Nationalists (they can speak for themselves I know) probably wouldn't call the NI team cross community specifically because of the flag & anthem. ROI exclusive? That's a joke.

p.s. what is "soldier song"?

More of the usual 'whataboutery' and utter cultural blindness... really at times you feel it's a matter of where you should emigrate to, not whether you should emigrate...

The debate usually comes down to something like this:
- 'We're excluded'
- 'No, you just think you are'
- 'No, we actually are'

If people say they're excluded, why do people not stop to wonder why they feel that way? Why, for example, are Protestants more than happy to support an all-Ireland team at Lansdowne Road, but not at Croke Park?

It's all very comforting to 'blame themmuns', but people need to take far longer to look at their own role in such things. For example, the very same people who argue that GSTQ is a reason not to go to Windsor Park are arguing that the Soldier Song is not a reason not to go to Casement Park - sorry, but this is blatant hypocrisy.

Btw, Beano made the best point right at the start - it wasn't just Catholics who felt alienated from NI matches.

A few queries:

IFA: Would Catholics/Nationalists support NI if three things happened: a) the anthem was changed; b) the flag was changed; c) the new stadium was built?

GAA: Is it not the case quite simply that the GAA is a sectarian organization and that's the way it's going to stay? Is there actually a major problem with that?

IJP
"Is it not the case quite simply that the GAA is a sectarian organization and that's the way it's going to stay?"

Using the more common meaning of "sectarian" this would indicate that protestants are banned/not-wanted which is utter shite. The organisation might be somewhat nationalist (too nationalist for me), promote only Gaelic culture (nothing wrong with that) but it does not ban anyone because of their religion.
p.s. unionist does not equal protestant.

"Is there actually a major problem with that?"

Yes.

"the anthem and emblems at Windsor are pretty exclusive to one section of our community"

ron,

There is a lot of validity in what you say, however change (if there is to be change) will come from with within. I presume by "emblems", you mean the representative flag, recognised by UEFA & FIFA?

But, there has to be a degree of honesty here - Northern Ireland fans will not be fooled by republican agitation on these issues.

Regardless of anthem, regardless of flags and regardless of stadium location, republicans will never support a team representing the six counties, called Northern Ireland.

This notion that they might support Northern Ireland if these changes took place is, frankly, absurd.

It is they who appear to bleat loudest on "the changes required"...required for what?

Those of us trying to influence change on issues like the Anthem, must be mindful that many would view it as a sop to republicanism.

They must be, and will be, reassured that no changes will be brought about to matters pertaining to the Northern Ireland team in consequence of republican propoganda and agitation.

Only those who have the best interests of the Northern Ireland team and supporters at heart will steer change.

There are many, many good reasons for the anthem to change...none of them to do with the fact that republicans don't like it.

Realist
"Regardless of ... republicans will never ..."

But is it about attracting Republicans or just catholics? If it attracts even just a handful of Catholics to the games then isn't it worth considering?

Change must come from within, I agree, but with input from the outside, IMHO.

(i'm a tad bored today so I have to bug someone, sorry Stewart)

"If it attracts even just a handful of Catholics to the games then isn't it worth considering?"

maca,

There is considerably more than a handful of Catholics who already attend games, but in answer to your question, I repeat, only those who have the best interests of the Northern Ireland team and supporters at heart will steer change.

That includes:

Protestants/Catholics/Atheists/others.

Republicans will gain nothing by playing political football with the NI team...that is a fact!

PS: You never "bug" me - your views I may disagree with, bit I respect your always honest opinion.

So Livingstone doesn't use the term Northern Ireland? Could it be anything to do with it being an illegitimate country imposed against the will of the majority of Irish people and held subsequently by force of arms?

Maca

Whether or not people are officially 'banned' is a technicality. I'm afraid this is again a case of communal blind spot.

The fact is the GAA welcomes Protestants, so long as they're Nationalist. It excludes non-Nationalists (deliberately) by symbolism, political comment, and promotional practice.

For example, I have never heard a county or national representative in any sport in Ireland make an openly and covertly political remark prior to retirement, yet prominent GAA players and managers do so quite often (by backing parties, discussing the political aspects of security, or simply coming out and saying that the GAA is basically a Republican organization).

It is therefore fundamentally sectarian - with the 'sect' being Irish Nationalism (itself fundamentally and instinctively anti-British).

I don't really have a problem with it being sectarian, in fact, although it does open up issues to do with cultural integration, state funding and such like.

'Could it be anything to do with it being an illegitimate country imposed against the will of the majority of Irish people and held subsequently by force of arms?'

Lunch time already? I suppose the above is the price we must pay for being wealthy enough to have computers in schools.

"Er, the GAA is organised along Roman Catholic parish boundaries and its clubs are organised within Roman Catholic parishes and churches."

IIRC the parish boundaries that are referred to if there is a query over eligibility for under-age players are those of the Church of Ireland in the 1830s as this was the most detailed map available until the early part of the twentieth century.

IJP,
There's no blind spot Ian, I know what symbols, rules & practices may exclude Unionists, but I believe your statement that the GAA only welcomes nationalist protestants is false. Do you believe every GAA member, catholic, protestant or otherwise, is a nationalist? Even those in Britain and around Europe? Are they all "anti-British"?

I also don't agree with your use of the term sectarian. It's a loaded term and should be used more carefully.

The majority (not all) of nationalists refuse to support Northern Ireland because it is a 6 county organisation, and is therefore inherently unionist.

The majority (not all) of unionists will refuse to support the GAA because it is a 32 county organisation, and is therefore inherently nationalist.

Get over it, and please stop whining about it just to try and score political points, or to somehow justify to yourselves the reason for your own in-bred hostility.

While I may be accused of oversimplifying the whole painfully boring situation, it seems quite clear that the people posting in support of the GAA and criticising the Northern Ireland football team are evidently nationalist, and the people posting in support of NI and criticising the GAA are obviously unionist.

Having politics spill over into sport is the price we pay for creating a politically intolerant society. Because we have all been socialised into our respective tribes there really is no point to debating the issue.

Has even ONE person who has followed this blog been persuaded to abandon their point of view based on someone else’s opinion from ‘the other side’?

Well said buckfasthero.

B
"Because we have all been socialised into our respective tribes there really is no point to debating the issue."

Not true. Communication is essential, you need to be able to discuss problems if you want to solve them.

"Has even ONE person who has followed this blog been persuaded to abandon their point of view based on someone else’s opinion from ‘the other side’?"

My views on a number of issues have changed due to discussions with some of the decent people here.

How about this for a cross-community sports initiative? Tyrone GAA should enter a reciprocal arrangement with Ulster Rugby, so that if either side runs out of jerseys they could borrow from the other? You' d hardly notice the difference.

"The majority (not all) of unionists will refuse to support the GAA because it is a 32 county organisation, and is therefore inherently nationalist. "

Disproved by contradiction:

Presbyterian Church, Rugby, Cricket, C of I, etc all organized at 32 country level.

"I also don't agree with your use of the term sectarian. It's a loaded term and should be used more carefully."

Cardinal O Fiaich was the first to identify what he saw as the different sectarian attitudes of the communities, and even though he got it wrong, the differences on this thread are noticable.

Sectarianism to nationalists ( I presume Roman Catholics too) is only religious- thus Ian paisley is sectarian because he is "anti-catholic" (sic) But political preference cannot be sectarian, thus the GAA having a quasi-political ethos is not sectarian , even though it excludes non-nationalists by its ethos- thus they blame the cause but excuse the effect

Sectarianism to Unionists/Protestants is anything that does what it says on the tin. If it excludes someone by definition it's sectarian. But if there is an indirect discrimination- the so-called "chill factor" because that doesn't explicitly exclude they tend to the view that it shouldn't count as sectarianism- hence the outrage about the removal of British symbols which obviously cannot of themselves exclude.

Nationalism'as view is widely accepted, but until they also buy into the Unionist concept of sectarianism then we'll always talk at cross purposes. For the record I don't distinguish between the effect both notions have on those who sincerely perceive themselves to be victims of sectarianism, though naturally I am more taken by the Unionist definition.

"I also don't agree with your use of the term sectarian. It's a loaded term and should be used more carefully."

Cardinal O Fiaich was the first to identify what he saw as the different sectarian attitudes of the communities, and even though he got it wrong, the differences on this thread are noticable.

Sectarianism to nationalists ( I presume Roman Catholics too) is only religious- thus Ian paisley is sectarian because he is "anti-catholic" (sic) But political preference cannot be sectarian, thus the GAA having a quasi-political ethos is not sectarian , even though it excludes non-nationalists by its ethos- thus they blame the cause but excuse the effect

Sectarianism to Unionists/Protestants is anything that does what it says on the tin. If it excludes someone by definition it's sectarian. But if there is an indirect discrimination- the so-called "chill factor" because that doesn't explicitly exclude they tend to the view that it shouldn't count as sectarianism- hence the outrage about the removal of British symbols which obviously cannot of themselves exclude.

Nationalism'as view is widely accepted, but until they also buy into the Unionist concept of sectarianism then we'll always talk at cross purposes. For the record I don't distinguish between the effect both notions have on those who sincerely perceive themselves to be victims of sectarianism, though naturally I am more taken by the Unionist definition.

I'm so sure Darthrumsfeld.
Many unionists I have discussed with here use the religious meaning of sectarianism.

"even though it excludes non-nationalists by its ethos"

You seem to have the same "problem" as Ian, thinking that all GAA members must be nationalist. They're not. Or do you consider anyone who is non-unionist to be nationalist? :)

Can I ask though, seriously, how non-nationalists are excluded. I know how (U)(u)nionists are excluded, but how about non-nationalists? And what's your definition of nationalist/non-nationalist?

Nationalists excluded from Orange Order
Tories Excluded from Labour Party
Liverpool players excluded from Manu Utd Dressing room.
Students excluded from Examiner’s office
Nun excluded from Priesthood
Elvis excluded from greatest living rockstar contest (He’s ALIVE and pumping gas in UTAH!)
George W Bush excluded from Greenpeace
smcgiff excluded from KeithM’s fanclub

Can ye see a pattern?

smcgiff, not really.

Oh! – sorry

Maca. I've read your postings, and my impression is that you are a level headed guy (or gal!), but I think you have taken what I have said much to literally.

My comment was the result of my intense frustration when reading through blogs such as these from our beloved country/province/region/state/statelet/district/occupied territory. It really makes me want to bang my head against the nearest wall.

"Not true. Communication is essential, you need to be able to discuss problems if you want to solve them."

People seem to equate the whole "whataboutus?" "whataboutthem?" drivel as communication. When are people going to start discussing the actual "problems" rather than focusing on tripe such as who supports what team.

Most people are quite happy with their chosen sport/team and are only using this debate to "enlighten" us with their political ideology.

If you have changed your opinion on some matters after reading these blogs then fair play, but as recent elections show, green still votes green, and orange still votes orange (by and large).

Here's hoping our kids might be a little more open minded...

Buckfasthero - Fair enough!

Slug,

The GAA flies the tricolour at Casement Park in Belfast and other Northern stadiums. This is testament to its 32-county ideology.

The same could not be said of the organisations you mentioned because the reason for their 32-county set-up is simply to do with them having been formed before partition.

They decided not to go their separate ways as was the case with the IFA and the FAI.

While I therefore apologise for the use of the word "inherently" I feel it hardly disproves my point.

Buckfasthero
"the reason for their 32-county set-up is simply to do with them having been formed before partition"

Though the GAA was also "formed before partition"

buckfastero

First you said:

"The majority (not all) of unionists will refuse to support the GAA because it is a 32 county organisation, and is therefore inherently nationalist. "

Now you say you will remove the term inherently from the above. However its still wrong without the word inherently, because unionists have no problems with lots of other '32 county' or Irish-level organizations such as ICU, PCI, COI, IRFU, and the like. Thus, unionist 'refusal to support' it is not BECAUSE the GAA is 32 county.