"Shot after he answered the door to two gunmen"?!?!?!?

I'm sorry, is this the same Jim Gray who's been under twenty four hour police surveillance since his release?

HHhhhhmmmmmm........William Stobie all over again methinks.

[edited Moderator]

Another victim of the peace here! Thank god we live in civilised times and that at last Republican weapons have been well and truly silenced, as we can all see the law abiding Loyalists are doing good for the community, actually no sarcasm there).

'Doris day' lived by the sword and it is no surprise he died by the sword. It is a pity that more of these villains who preyed on the idealist and vulnerable of society, haven't joined him yet.

Chilling.

I just hope -- rather unrealistic, I know -- that it ends with this death.

A new low on Slugger - playing the man not the ball now seems to encompass dead terrorist scumbags.

Will unionists now call for the immediate decommisioning of all unionist weapons ?

Will his death have any effect on the on going investigations into Gray's money empire.

The investigations included the raiding of the uup constituency office of Michael Copeland mla and the questioning of a well known East Belfast estate agent.

He mightn't be the only one going under.

He was under police protection when he was murdered.

Raff: "Another victim of the peace here! Thank god we live in civilised times and that at last Republican weapons have been well and truly silenced, as we can all see the law abiding Loyalists are doing good for the community, actually no sarcasm there)."

Can you say with 100% assurdness that this isn't a case of one of the other Protestant groups "taking out the trash" before the investigation gets to far? Honor among thieves and all that. Seeing as he asnwered the door to let the two gunmen in, it would seem likely they were known to the victim -- I can't seem him letting in two fellas in black baklavas, neh?

Is it just me or is NI going straight down the shitter (more so than usual). I have been avoiding N. Irish news reports recently due to the shear amount of depressing stories, mostly involving loyalists. Will it ever end? It's been 11 years ffs. WW1 and WW2 were over in 10 total.

As for this tosser, what did he achieve except inflicting misery on others. Now misery has been inflicted on his family and the cycle continues.

And the unionist 'leaders' are up in arms (excuse the pun) over Murphy's stupid comment. Well, stupid comments don't kill people, guns kill people. Don't they have anything to say about loyalist guns?

"I can't seem him letting in two fellas in black baklavas, neh?"

Balaclavas, even

Actually, Cahal, people kill people.

Funny how the loyalist paramilitaries can do what they want when they want, even under the noses of the PSNI.

Will they now specify the UDA.
Or will we have to listen to the old adage about not wanting to inflame the situation.

Gray's death is not unexpected. Lets hold out breath to see the reaction within Unionism and loyalism. Like SlugFest I hope (not expect) this is the last of this end game within loyalism. But sadly I feel not. Bucketful of funding would help, but have we now reached a new stage in the 'Irish question' where theissue is now not killing 'Home Rule with kindness' but 'killing loyalism with funding'?

"And the unionist 'leaders' are up in arms (excuse the pun) over Murphy's stupid comment. Well, stupid comments don't kill people, guns kill people. Don't they have anything to say about loyalist guns?"

Actually Cahal Murphy`s bomb killed 5 people. Might I add that yes I do unreservedly call for the decommissioning of Loyalist weapons. Do the UVF and UDA have the COURAGE to move forward positively and do so in an entirely transparent way (aka LVF sawing up guns). One reason the Loyalist community is behind is simply that they have not set a destination or a goal or any targets of what they wish to achieve. How about coming up with a road map of what you want and how you aim to get it and GO FOR IT, start by asking for things instead of opposing things.

Does this mean that Doris' sunbed has been put verifibly beoynd use?

I'm not convinced that Gray has been decommissioned and put beyond use - clearly the ordinary people on the ground need evidence that he will never rise from the grave to terrorize our people again.

Senior orangeman Billy Mahwinney tonight justified the violence of loyalist paramilitaries on Spotlight this evening.

He said that the loyalist drug gangs were an integral part of the unionist community(similar to Diane Dodds comments)and are the protectors of the community.

He basically encouraged unionists to continue thier violence to achieve their objectives ?

At least the orange order are coming clean about their support for the loyalist murder gangs

An incredible piece of television from a senior spokeman within this 'religious organisation'

Perhaps, rather than simply registering a glee at another terrorist's death, some could focus on the obvious disregard of Secretary of State Peter Hain's threat of the ruthless security clampdown loyalist paramilitaries would face if they refused to disarm and end their violence.

"people on the ground need evidence that he will never rise from the grave to terrorize our people again."

A bit ironic considering loyalists were threatening to dig up graves last weekend

peteb : fair comment, my remark earlier was in rather poor taste. But what is there to comment on ? The government have no courage to take on the loyalists - they have been shooting each other under cover of a ceasefire for a decade now. It might be a different matter if unionists would come off the fence over paramilitarism.

I'm finding myself agreeing with frank, feeling rather like a republican, which makes me feel all.. dirty. Gerry Adams was undoubtedly correct; if he'd come out with the remarks that this chap made this evening on Spotlight, there would have been calls from unionists for his arrest.

I'm reminded again this evening of the ambiguous perspective that unionist politicians have on loyalist violence. The BBC reports Peter Robinson as saying :

"Those who take the law into their own hands have nothing to contribute to society"

Isn't this fascinating ? Robinson appears to be implying that this killing was not a straightforward terrorist murder, but an act of vigilantism.

What would Robinson say if he heard someone describe an IRA murder as "taking the law into their own hands" ?

There's plenty to comment on and discuss, Comrade.. as you prove -

"The government have no courage to take on the loyalists - they have been shooting each other under cover of a ceasefire for a decade now. It might be a different matter if unionists would come off the fence over paramilitarism."

Although I'd suggest the first sentence in that extract has more relevance than the second.

The loyalist paramilitary's have refused to decommission there weapons.

But instead have opted to get rid of there members.

That will do me.

Peteb
"Actually, Cahal, people kill people."

You sound like one of those unionists who have been crawling out of the woodwork recently saying " well decommissioning wasn't such a big issue anyway ".

Alan2
"Actually Cahal Murphy`s bomb killed 5 people."

a. It wasn't 'Murphy`s bomb'.
b. I never claimed the bomb didn't kill anybody. It did, twenty years ago. Yes, twenty years. How many people have the loyalits killed in the last year alone? More than 5 me-thinks. Relative importance of both issues, well you can decide.

Pete :

Although I'd suggest the first sentence in that extract has more relevance than the second.

My opinion is that the equivocation from unionists over loyalist paramilitarism is the main factor in the British government's hesitance to deal with the problem directly. The government in some ways are correct to want to avoid stoking the trouble that would be caused by unionist politicians siding with loyalist paramilitaries full-on against the security forces.

Leading unionists such as Jim Rodgers are now coming out directly and saying that they have lost confidence in the police and presumably that means the army as well, given that their action against the rioting earlier this month was joint. While unionism continues to be unambiguous about it's opposition to the security forces while ambiguous about it's support for paramilitarism, the British government would be taking a big risk to make a move against loyalists.

"The loyalist paramilitary's have refused to decommission there weapons.

But instead have opted to get rid of there members.

That will do me."

here here

Frank: "Senior orangeman Billy Mahwinney tonight justified the violence of loyalist paramilitaries on Spotlight this evening.

He said that the loyalist drug gangs were an integral part of the unionist community(similar to Diane Dodds comments)and are the protectors of the community."

Let me get this straight -- drug running and violence are not "integral parts of the unionist community?" Do they have rap music and really big jewelry to go with it? Sounds like the bad brains they have in America -- thug life is the "real" African-American culture.

Did this mope throw some facts on this wild idea, or did he think this one would support itself on its face?

"You sound like one of those unionists who have been crawling out of the woodwork recently saying " well decommissioning wasn't such a big issue anyway "."

Regardless of what you may think, Cahal, the reality remains that guns are not necessary to kill people. That's the only point I was making.

Comrade

I'm not disputing that you may have a valid point of view, but my point is that the equivocation by the British government, over the past 10 years, in regard to all violence from all quarters, has contributed to the lack of effectiveness of any Secretary of State issuing threats such as the one issued by Peter Hain.

It's the big picture, IMHO.

Gray was in prison in relation to his criminal empire pretty serious offences were levelled at him. Strangely he gets bail, and is murdered Stobie like! Special Branch at thier work again They haven't gone away ya know!!

Dread Cthulhu, the point I was making that it is the Loyalists who are doing all the killing and that this decommissioning by 'Republicans' is farcical! The clue was in the fact that I mentioned sarcasm.
It is now time that people call for all loyalist arms to be taken out of the equation, it shouldn't matter if the right ones or the left ones goes first as long as they all go.

Do they have rap music and really big jewelry to go with it?

Sadly, yes. Have you ever seen a picture of Jim 'Doris' Gray?

Frank

Senior orangeman Billy Mahwinney tonight justified the violence of loyalist paramilitaries on Spotlight this evening.

And he wore his sash while he did it. Will he be expelled I wonder or is it okay to express such views in the Orange Order.

[BLOCKQUOTE]And he wore his sash while he did it. Will he be expelled I wonder or is it okay to express such views in the Orange Order.[/BLOCKQUOTE]
The swordsman man and rioters were not expelled, the likelyhood of Billy going is less than zero, it's acceptable practice within the Orange Order.

"He was under police protection when he was murdered"

About sums up the effectiveness of the PSNI

CS

"I'm not convinced that Gray has been decommissioned and put beyond use - clearly the ordinary people on the ground need evidence that he will never rise from the grave to terrorize our people again."

1. Independent eyewitnesses have seen the body
2. When where and how the event took place has received extensive coverage in the media
3. There will be an autopsy with a full report
4. The investigation will be conducted by the PSNI and they can be asked about it through the DPP's and Policing Board.
5. There will be a funeral and media coverage of it - won't just be photos but video footage
6. There will be a public inquest into his death
7. There is only one documented case of someone rising from the dead and that was two thousand years ago (Lazarus). While republican groups saying they had stopped and starting again has occured a number of times ie collapse of the first IRA ceasefire less than a decade ago, 1962 Border campaign.

"Gray was in prison in relation to his criminal empire pretty serious offences were levelled at him. Strangely he gets bail, and is murdered Stobie like! Special Branch at thier work again They haven't gone away ya know!!"

I have to say theres something very murky here.

Firsty, was Gray under immediate danger and is this why he was under some form of police protection?

Secondly, where was the police protection?

Thirdly, with all the plethora of informers all the differing security services have within Loyalist groups, surely someone must have picked up something?

Whos protecting who and whos hiding something????

Dick Doggins

I wouldn't dismiss your suspicions by any means. However, two things operate against conspiracy - it was Gray who applied for bail and if as claimed he was providing info to the police they would have wanted him alive.

He seems to have had some form of police protection and your questions are apt. Maybe you should submit them to the Policing Board?

As for the third, there are a lot less informers now, part of the SDLP's price was demanding the police radically reduce the number of informers they have (This was based on the nationalist perception that too many criminals were using the informer system too get away with their crimes). The Patten cuts mean there are a lot less police. The Patten reforms meant many officers opted for the packages and a wealth of experience was lost.

Gray may well have applied for bail many many criminals do, the courts seldom give bail on serious crimes it was a vested interest of the Special Branch to get Gray out of the way as he was threatening to expose his handlers just as William Stobie who suffered the same fate! We are talking about a high profile member of an Illegal criminal organisation making vast sums of money from crime, drug dealing being his main source of income, he was only arrested when his connection with the UDA was severed by that organisation, it's obvious he was no longer useful to Special Branch and they got rid of him before he became a liability.

How many vested interests have now been protected by the deaths of Gray, Stobie Nelson and Craig? Need we look much further for the causes of their deaths?

Victor

Dick asked some pertinent questions but you have gone straight to conspiracy land without passing go.

"the courts seldom give bail on serious crimes"

Unfortunately the courts do. Hugh Orde publicly attacked the court system for being too willing to offer bail. Sinn fein have complained about loyalists getting bail while on serious charges.

"it was a vested interest of the Special Branch to get Gray out of the way as he was threatening to expose his handlers"

Where and when did Gray admit to having handlers and threaten to expose them?

'Secondly, where was the police protection?'

I've heard it mentioned that he didn't like the close protection he was receiving from the PSNI and asked the PSNI to back off.

No idea if this is actually true.

Fairy, conspiracy land is the only place for this particular crime,Grays Special Branch handlers have decided in thier wisdom he was no longer useful, he didn't have the power within the UDA to carry out thier orders therefore he was expendable. Gray didn't get the chance to openly admit to having handlers they had hime executed! As for Dick's querys and your right they were pertinent and if you could would you like to respond to them, coming from the background Gray came from I'm sure your replies would be most useful to the debate.

Victor1,

Are you admitting to seeing fairies?

Why was Mr Gray heading down south with a large some of Euro's. He must have felt safe. He is a figure that most people would recognise. Can you imagine if you worked in Dublin airport and this guy came trying to book a ticket to Costa Del Crime. One would be in a dilemma, should i ring the local criminals and tell them a murdering scumbag is in your area or smile and let him through.

Nah not seeing them smcgiff just responding to one ;) anyone notice the PSNIs response to Grays killing INTERNAL HOUSEKEEPING now theres something in that statement to get the fairies going .

Victor

Repetition of a claim is not evidence and trying to twist to continue the justification doesn't work either.

"Grays Special Branch handlers have decided in thier wisdom he was no longer useful"

Did he have handlers? Who were they? When did they reach this conclusion?

"he didn't have the power within the UDA to carry out thier orders therefore he was expendable."

What orders did Special branch give to Gray?

"Gray didn't get the chance to openly admit to having handlers" That is a change in story from your previous post "he was threatening to expose his handlers"

If he threatened to do it he must have told someone. To whom did he admit to having handlers and make this threat too? When was it made?

"As for Dick's querys and your right they were pertinent and if you could would you like to respond to them"

I did respond with what answers I had. I find it wisest only to offer answers to questions you can answer rather than make wild unsubstantiated claims. On the PSNI I did not know the answers so did not offer one and made a suggestion as to where he may get an answer.

"coming from the background Gray came from I'm sure your replies would be most useful to the debate."

Eyes roll.

Fair-Deal
There are many cases in the New Testament of people being raised from the dead apart from Lazarus. You may have forgotten that Jesus rose from the dead and if you take the time to read you will find several other reported cases which were witnessed by many people.
Such events put our present political situation in perspective.If the New Testament is accepted as reasonable proof, and I believe personally that its authenticity is beyond question,we should not be flippant about such amazing happenings.

"Repetition of a claim is not evidence and trying to twist to continue the justification doesn't work either"

Absolutely correct f_d

........Sorry, what was that about the Northern Bank?

Ah, I was waiting for someone to offer comment on fair_deal's reference to the Good Book. No better man to step forward than yourself, T.Ruth, I'm a great fan of your scripturally-sound postings. Loving your work, loving your work...

Weapons of Crass Instruction

"what was that about the Northern Bank?"

Yeah I though the attempt to blame that robbery on securocrats was entertaining too.

Victor1

Any chance of answers to the questions above?

Did Paisley not rise from the grave.

I know once he was seen walking on water.

You may have forgotten that Jesus rose from the dead and if you take the time to read you will find several other reported cases which were witnessed by many people.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. No evidence exists for the resurrection; no evidence or corroboration exists establishing the credibility of the "witnesses" (who witnessed no resurrection); nothing material exists to substantiate the claims made in the Bible. Belief in the Bible requires blind faith, and as such it's authenticity is entirely questionable.

CS

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"

The claim the IRA had finally disarmed was pretty extraordinary......

Victor1

Still waiting for answers to these

Did he have handlers?
Who were they?
When and why did they reach the conclusion he was expendable?
What orders did Special branch give to Gray?
If he threatened to do 'tell' he must have told someone. To whom did he admit to having handlers and make this threat too? When was it made?

Victor

I see you popped up on another thread still waiting for your answers on this one.