O'Shea, who has neither a pro- or anti-American agenda,was absolutely right in his initial remarks about how ludicrous is the idea of Irish aid and troops for New Orleans, given the wealth and capabilities of that nation, compared to the distinct lack of zeal there is for providing similar aid where it is really needed. John O'Shea is merely guilty of stating the bleeding obvious.
Browne, fair play to him, is absolutely right in pointing that out.
O'Dowd resigned from the American board of GOAL following O'Shea's remarks. That was his right. However, it may have carried just a little more weight if he had been just as eager to sever his connections with Sinn Fein after the Colombia affair, given the actual implications that had for the US both at home (drugs importation by FARC) and regarding US geo-political policy in South America.
As for his remarks "... that Ireland, with perhaps the closest cultural, historical and political ties of all to the United States, ...".
That is just not true.
For better or worse, culturally, politically and historically the US is very much the son (or daughter) of Britain.

Does this mean O'Dowd will be severing his connections with the one party, over all parties in Ireland, which consistently espouses anti-American sentiments?
Not a bit of it.
He'll still be there in the Irish Voice etc eager to give a platform to dear ole Gerry.

I think I'll call you WackoJacko for your last post.

Tis true, everyone has a right to do speak their opinion on American affairs, but what O'Dowd says about Ireland in his article is true. In the past 4 years, Ireland has practically treated America with complete disdain. And for what, because we have a lousy president with a lousy foreign agenda? Other than that, what have Americans done to Ireland to deserve such treatment? Right, nothing! So get over it already!

Harris
O'Dowd is right insofar as he pointed out an anti-Americanism in Ireland - which, incidentally, goes far beyond the intelligensia - that is knee-jerk and, at times, without logic.
This attitude troubles me as well. I love America for all its faults and consider it to be the most successful social, economic and political experiment in modern history. But, leaving that aside, the logic of O'Shea's points is obvious.
Where O'Dowd is completely wrong, is in trying to lump John O'Shea in with this Irish anti-American tendency. I repeat, O'Shea is neither pro- nor anti-American but was simply pointing up a truth in relation to Irish establishment attitudes to suffering in other countries that do not have the same resources at hand as the USA.
O'Dowd, also, has left himself open to a charge of rank hypocrisy in that he has had little or nothing to say about his friends in Sinn Fein cavorting with the Colombian narco-terrorists of Farc. This caused not a ripple in his support for Provisional Irish republicans. Nor does or has the fact that those same people represent the most virulently anti-American strand within Ireland.

Jacko, did you listen to the Morning Ireland interview in which he suggested that Ireland 'send a card' instead? His overall point may have some validity however his expression of it left him sounding like he was more from the ultra left America hating camp than he was filled with common sense. When pressed on the factors he cited for not helping America (America awash with billionaires, for one), by drawing the comparison to India, who also has quite a few rich people amongst its population, he cited the American government's attempt to help its poor as a reason why Ireland shouldn't bother. It appeared that his hatred/dislike for America over-rode his common sense on the day. He also had to publicly apologise in the Irish Times for insulting the Irish Army in the same swipe.

Your point about O'Dowd's hypocrisy is fair, however, that O'Dowd may be a hypocrite on some issues does not mean the Emperor is strutting about in clothes on this one. A stuck clock is right twice a day regardless, and to point O'Dowd's faults out is not a defence for the faults of Browne and O'Shea on this one.

Vincent Browne's screed was just hateful. At the end of the day it has come to it not being the point but the motivation and in these two cases the motivation appears to be anti-American; they just happened to have Katrina and Ireland's response to it to hang it on.

It's a short-sighted response to a crisis that will have a global impact economically, btw.

And whatever will these 'It's not America, it's Bush' haters do when Bush completes his term?

I completely disagree that the anti-American feelings are solely related to a Bush presidency. Having moved here from the US 15 years ago, I was really taken aback by a low-level resentment even back then. Over the years, I have come to recognise it more and more, as it has become quite acceptable, particularly in the ROI.
Obviously seminal events will intensify the feeling, but I have no doubt that it is there- bubbling away under the surface all the time.

While I dont like to continually look back if it prevents forward movement and growth, on this occasion it really is important to remember historical precendent and events. The Irish Famine remains a lesson in how we always need to seperate the issues of the people who are suffering in an acute crisis from our disapproval of the governance under which they live.

Jacko,

Seems to me that a member of a party which has much closer links to narco-terrorists has recently been visiting Colombia. Perhaps the loyal brothers are running short of marching powder?

Jacko, I disagree with your comment that America is much more culturally aligned with Britian that Ireland. True, Americans have Brit ancestors, but from the 16 and 1700's. The Irish we're descended form mostly came over from 1848 on, more within family memory. I have both Brith and Irish ancestory. Americans really love the Irish and Ireland, that romantic "My grandpa Paddy was born in a little cottage" sorta thing. We have visions of thatched roofs in Cong or the wild strands. I can tell you personally that it hurts my heart to hear bad stuff about my country esp from kin folk. Oh yeah, as the article says, our money is good enough for you, but helpin' a mate when the chips are down would go along way. We'd do it for y'all, no questions asked.

I think a lot of anti-Americanism stems from the fact that America is the worlds only superpower. At times this can give an imperialist impression, especially with double standards as regards certain dictators and the one-sideness of the Palestine-Israel conflict (especially how close the Palestinian situation resembles our own past). Ireland was always known internationally as a western-orientated anti-colonial nation, thats why we get along with the majority of the nations of this world. This anti-colonial/imperialism attitude can lead to resentment towards America with its current foreign policy. I can't see this situation worsening. It's only a product of our times. The relationship was much rockier between the two countries during WW2 over Irish neutrality. FDR hated De Valera because of his stubborn attitude and the pull he had over the 'hyphenate Americans'. This was a critical time for both nations, and our relationship survived.

Missfitz

"The Irish Famine remains a lesson in how we always need to seperate the issues of the people who are suffering in an acute crisis from our disapproval of the governance under which they live."

Spot on, as they say.

ch in Dallas
"Jacko, I disagree with your comment that America is much more culturally aligned with Britian that Ireland."

Try learning a little of the actual history of your nation.
From Jamestown to Plymouth Rock to the Founding Fathers to the fundamentalist Protestant notion of self-sufficiency to the similarly derived conservatism and to your language etc. etc. etc.
The USA, historically, even owes more to the French than the Irish you refer to as "The Irish we're descended form".

I really love Africa and Africans but it's hardly something I can base much of a cultural, political or historical claim upon.

ch in dallas

If Ireland always agreed with American policy, then we wouldn't be Ireland. We'd be America! To let a few no-nothings who are bad mouthing your country sully your view of their country is to make the exact same mistake that they are making. Ireland is a free democratic society like your own country. People can form and voice their own views be they right or wrong.
I think where a lot of anger in Ireland towards America over the last week or so is mis-directed. A lot of people are angry about the gesture the Irish government made as regards troops and money. This anger should be directed towards the Irish government. Not because they made the gesture, but because of the fact that the gesture was never made to poorer countries and that Bertie is saying that we won't make the 0.7% in aid by the required deadline.
I believe that Ireland is the pivot in which Europe meets the U.S. I am a big fan of American culture and history. I appreciate everything that the U.S. has done for our country. 'When the chips are down' Ireland will be there as we were in your grief from 9/11. But Ireland will not blindly agree to American policies that we do not agree with. If you believed your best friend was about to make a terrible mistake, would you tell him, or would you just agree with him and let him make it? Please don't get the idiots in this country mixed up with those who genuinely care but have a different viewpoint.

"When the chips are down' Ireland will be there ..."

What a load of tosh.
Ireland has never "been there" when the chips were down.
From the despicable position they adopted during the second world war, to Vietnam, the first gulf war and the present war in Iraq, Ireland has never backed the US.
The merits or otherwise of the latter three, in my opinion, are open to debate, but that doesn't alter the fact that far from what you state, it's a far safer bet that when the US needs allies to step up to the plate Ireland WON'T "be there".

"[I]t's a far safer bet that when the US needs allies to step up to the plate Ireland WON'T "be there".

Which the (anti-American) comments of O'Shea and Browne demonstrate quite strongly.

Els

No, which history clearly and strongly demonstrates. Sympathy cards are one thing, "being there" is quite another.

I agree with you; O'Shea and Browne are simply carrying on the tradition.

Jacko

If you must focus on the war aspect:

Irish blood was spilled in the American war of independance.
Irish blood was spilled in the American-Mexican war.
Irish blood was spilled during Americas's civil war.
Irish blood was spilled in WW1.
Irish blood was spilled in WW2.
Irish blood was spilled in Vietnam.
Irish blood was spilled on 9/11.

A colleauges best friend is currently serving with the Rangers in Afganistan, as are many other Irishmen in the U.S. and British armies.

Whilst Ireland is officallly a neutral country, there are many who are willing to take up arms under foreign flags and banners and fight for what they believe in.

"when the US needs allies "

I assume that they will go to friendly countries that actually have a decent army rather rely on A few Irish Army soldiers in an APC ;-)

"the despicable position they adopted during the second world war"

The position is entirly justifiable considering: 1.)at that point in time we were also facing a possible invasion from Britian.

2.)Ireland hadn't recovered from both the black and tan war and the civil war.

3.)Ireland had been partitioned and was seen to be still 'occupied' by a foreign power.

4.)What army was there to send to this war?

5.)Economically, Ireland was crippled and could not afford defensive weapons. Britain and the U.S. would not supply them in case they were used against the North, even though they had assurances from the Irish government that this would not be the case.

We did what we could un-officially:
1.) Plain clothes were provided at the ports for men returning/goining to the war who had joined the British army. Understandably, at that time British uniforms in Irish streets would have caused an uproar.

2.) Irish coastguards broadcasted in unencrypted radio signals, giving the allies info on the whereabouts of german navel movements.

3.) Allied airmen brought down over Ireland were returned to the allies, german airmen were interred.

4.) IRA suspects were interred as to not make trouble for Britian.

"something else altogether has begun to creep in. It is a mean-spirited and myopic attitude that everything American is bad"

Yes, nasty stuff and you hear it all the time. Then often you hear some kind of explanation or justification for it that links back to a real topic. I just finished reading the following from an American writer who I think is a fine fellow and of course he has millions of compatriots:

International arms exports. At #1 was the United States at $18.5 billion

The U.S. share of total world military expenditures per year has been roughly 36 percent, while comprising under 5 percent of the world's population.

The U.S. Arms Industry is the second most heavily subsidized industry after agriculture

The U.S. has a long-standing (and accelerating) policy of arming, training, and aiding some of the world's most repressive regimes," says Frida Berrigan, Senior Research Associate with the Arms Trade Resource Center of the World Policy Institute.

The U.S. transferred weaponry to 18 of the 25 countries involved in active conflicts in 2003, the last year for which full Pentagon data is available.

The Center for International Policy estimates that around 80% of U.S. arms exports to the developing world go to non-democratic regimes.

Half of the world's governments spend more on defense than health care.

9 County,

Fascinating historical stuff. I have also read that fire equipment and crews were sent from the South to Belfast during the 1941 Blitz.

Anyway, I am curious about the Irish involved in the Vietnam War (any details) and what you mean by "Irish blood was spilled on 9/11" (first responders?).

Jacko

As an aside note, your comment focused mainly on the war aspect. My first reply was a 'playing ball' reply.
But as an aside, I really hope that you don't just think any relation with or being supportive of the U.S. usually involves them being in a war.
Our relationship with the U.S. was never about war. We've supported the U.S. in international forums.For example, non-proliferation of nuclear arms was first proposed to the U.N. by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Aiken, and is a cornerstone in American foreign policy to this day. He also put forward ideas for peace in the middle East, another important area in American foreign policy. We support America by searching for solutions to common problems, and not by sending men out to some war as cannon fodder.

"Irish blood was spilled in the American-Mexican war".

Yes, on behalf of the Irish brigade that fought on the Mexican side. Or are you going to hedge your bets now and start claiming ownership of those "other Irish" who actually helped build America, who can claim at least 9 Presidents but never get a mention except when backs are to the wall?
As for all this unproven and unprovable crap:
Irish blood was spilled in the American war of independance.
Irish blood was spilled during Americas's civil war.
Irish blood was spilled in WW1.
Irish blood was spilled in WW2.
Irish blood was spilled in Vietnam.
Irish blood was spilled on 9/11.
Ireland has never gone to war on anyone's behalf, not even on behalf of world freedom and democracy against Hitler and the Nazis.
That many Irish people had to leave the country of their birth to go and fight under other banners for world freedom should be a matter of shame - not excuses and half-baked nonsense about the black and tans.

Alan

Here is a site about the Irish who died in Vietnam:
http://www.illyria.com/vn_irish_names.html

and here's a link about the Irish who fought in other wars:
http://www.illyria.com/irish/mcginn_irishagains.html (same site but has the basic facts).

And here's a decent link as regards 9/11:
http://www.irishtribute.com/

"We support America by searching for solutions to common problems, and not by sending men out to some war as cannon fodder."

It might surprise some that "we" can claim credit for having convinced America of the fallacy of "sending men out to some war as cannon fodder."
God knows what it would be like if "we" hadn't, eh.

As an aside to the above.
Let's get real here. Ireland has about as much clout and influence on the world stage as the Isle of Man.
A couple of eurovisions and a decent run at the football do not a world power-broker make.

My anti-Americanism is taking root in the soil being fertilised by the number of Dublin kids that are now saying "your mom" instead or "yore ma." I'm being half-facetious (only half, mind you).

A friend recently told me that dialing "911" will get you the emergency services. Can anyone confirm that? (I don't want to dial it just to check.)

If true, it think it makes clear Ireland's saturation by American culture.

"Yes, on behalf of the Irish brigade that fought on the Mexican side."

40% of the American forces in that war were Irish, and yes there was the San Patricos on the Mexican side. This was entirely understandable considering there was an aggressive action from a Protestant state against a weaker Catholic state over a land grab.
During the last battle of that war, the captured Irish were positioned on a hill on a gallows near the battle for a convent. After the U.S. flag was raised above the convent, the Irish were hung.

"As for all this unproven and unprovable crap:"

I've provided a few links already to support some of these points. If you wish I can get more. Or if you're smart enough, you can 'Wiki' it yourself.

"Ireland has never gone to war on anyone's behalf"
Hmmmm. Then who was it that died at the Somme and at Gallipoli? I believe a lot of Irishmen died for the U.K.s behalf. In modern conflicts. the ARW were involved in Liberia and managed to rescue a large contingent of hostages without firing a shot. Ireland brokered a deal between Morrocco and Western Sahara to allow both countries to give back each others POW's who have spent years in prison camps as the rest of the world had not even heard of the conflict.

"As an aside to the above.
Let's get real here. Ireland has about as much clout and influence on the world stage as the Isle of Man.
A couple of eurovisions and a decent run at the football do not a world power-broker make."

The Irish are renowned in Europe for 'punching above their weight'. You seem to count influence on a world stage as military influence. There are other kinds of influence you know. For example, our presidancy period of the EU was considered a complete success by all, with the accession states joining smoothly,and the EU constitution was agreed upon (getting it passed the public is another story), this was considered near impossible. As mentioned briefly in an earlier post, FDR was not a fan of Dev because of his influence with Irish-America, which is an incredibly strong lobby group in the states. At the last census, 43 million Americans claimed Irish ancestory. 40% of the total population of Austrailia claims Irish decent. And the largest 'etnic' group in the UK is Irish. That's a lot of countries in which Irish influence exists from within. Can the Isle of Man claim to have the same?

"A couple of eurovisions and a decent run at the football do not a world power-broker make."

This phrase says a lot more about you than it does about the Irish.

9 County,

I followed your links re: Vietnam and 9/11. As an American, I recognize your view of Irish-Americans and of Irish-born Americans as those with "Irish blood" that was spilled on these occasions.

A recently famous American of Irish descent was the NYC Fireman, Mike Moran, from my old hometown of Rockaway Beach, who invited Osama Bin Laden to "kiss my royal Irish ass" on national TV. He went on to defend George Bush's 9/11 election ads. I don't think Mike would look kindly on any flak from Irish liberals.

"Ireland has never gone to war on anyone's behalf Hmmmm. Then who was it that died at the Somme and at Gallipoli? I believe a lot of Irishmen died for the U.K.s behalf."

Exactly the point I make. Ireland has never gone to war on anyone's behalf, hence citizens fighting for whatever cause in the armies of other nations.
It is only within the last few years that Ireland has even begun to acknowledge the Irish people who, against the wishes of their own government and most of their fellow countrymen and women, fought in the First and Second world war. Before then, they were the great unmentionables akin to traitors in most people's minds.
You can hardly claim them now as an example of Ireland's willingness to "be there" when the chips are down.
Irishman Lord Haw Haw was more reflective of the Irish position during the second world war than those who left the country to fight for democracy and freedom.

Before then, they were the great unmentionables akin to traitors in most people's minds.

Anecdotal evidence is not worth a great deal, but for what it is worth: I had a grandfather and a great-grandfather fight in the two world wars. My family have lived in Dublin for donkey's years, and they were never treated as "unmentionables" or "traitors."

Alan McDonald and 9countyprovience

If, as it seems, you are determined to trace the ancestory of American, Australian people etc. and selectively claim their deeds on behalf of whatever place their ancestors hailed from, then God help us.
Is that what Bertie told George Bush:"Well we can't actually "be there" but we're claiming all those Irish-Americans on our behalf."
With that kind of logic, it's frightening to imagine what little box you would have put the Italian- and German-Americans during the second world war? Alongside those Japanese-Americans who were locked up in internment camps no doubt.

Of those 40% of Americans who claim Irish descent, only 2% at best know a damn thing about Ireland ... the rest wear green on St. Paddy's Day, clinging to the memory of the ol' sod that never was.

That said, I'd agree with Jacko ... the US is more closely linked with Britain than Ireland, which, in my opinion, reflects badly on both, as each can somehow then find a justification for colonialism. Pre -- and post -- 9/11, I frequently refer to America -- my own country -- as the 'new Brits'.

But in my opinion, that doesn't let the Irish off the hook. The entire culture of the country has been eaten away by the 'Celtic Tiger' -- they've forgotten their poor and, in only ten years have the second largest gap (America being the first) between the rich and the poor in the world. They are ridiculously hypocritical -- they cling to American celebrities that have even a pint of Irish blood, then in the same breath mock Americans who claim to be of Irish descent. They forgot who they are -- or rather, who they've claimed to be -- as soon as money started pouring in. The Irish, in essence, are the 'new Americans'.

- 'As for his remarks "... that Ireland, with perhaps the closest cultural, historical and political ties of all to the United States, ...".
That is just not true'.

Mmm. Something tells me that when the idea of American independence was first suggested, there may have been more than a few paddies/descendants of same volunteered to fight against the forces of the crown on America's behalf..

'Let's get real here. Ireland has about as much clout and influence on the world stage as the Isle of Man'.

How many countries across the world celebrate St Patrick's day?

And, er...how many countries across the world celebrate Britain's national holiday?

Dandyman:

St. Patrick's Day, as the world knows it today, is more of an American celebration than an Irish one ... the first St. Paddy's Day parade was held in Boston in 1737 ... Ireland didn't have one until the late 1800's. While those first few in America were actually started by Irish expats feeling a bit rebellious in their new country, the bottom line is America started them, made them obnoxious as hell, and then the world -- including Ireland -- caught on.

"Anecdotal evidence is not worth a great deal,"

In this case, dead right. For very other piece of evidence, not least from the families of those who fought in the two wars, runs completely counter to what you claim.

For very other piece of evidence, not least from the families of those who fought in the two wars, runs completely counter to what you claim.

Discount it completely, if it makes you feel better, more comfortable and helps you justify whatever sort of prejudices you like to harbour. No skin off my nose.

However, your dismissal does not change the fact that they and their fellow soldiers in Dublin did not experience what you claim they did.

"Mmm. Something tells me that when the idea of American independence was first suggested, there may have been more than a few paddies/descendants of same volunteered to fight against the forces of the crown on America's behalf.."

Dandyman
If you knew anything at all about the origins of at least 90% of the Founding Fathers and their followers you wouldn't make such a ludicrous, self-serving statement.
See John Adamses courtroom remarks when defending the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre to get a flavour of how highly esteemed the Irish were at that time.

Yoda

What you claim is simply not true. The Royal British Legion in the Republic, Bertie Ahern, various C of I Bishops, Mary Robinson and many, many others have all at different times acknowledged the disgraceful way those who fought in the two wars were treated if they dared try to commemorate fallen comrades.
They were treated as outcasts and virtual traitors - your snide remarks and dubious claims don't alter that fact.

Jacko,

I'm simply telling you the experience of those who were in my family and their friends. They were not treated as outcasts and misfits.

You just want to dismiss their experience. If you don't like hearing it, or cannot see anything positive in that experience, I can't help you.

I have first hand experience of the treatment of former soldiers in Dublin that does not fit with your desire to find blanket ostracism.

Let's get back to the subject of anti-Americanism. Not having a sub to the Irish Times, I can't read the Browne piece that prompted O'Dowd's reply.

My question is, how much anti-Americanism really exists in Ireland? We know other Europeans who are seriously anti-American, but we don't expect it of the Irish. On the other hand, most Americans I know think very highly of the English, and they are unaware of anti-American feelings in Britain.

Jacko

"Ireland has never gone to war on anyone's behalf, hence citizens fighting for whatever cause in the armies of other nations."

You've quoted me to support this. How nice. You've left out
"In modern conflicts. the ARW were involved in Liberia and managed to rescue a large contingent of hostages without firing a shot. Ireland brokered a deal between Morrocco and Western Sahara to allow both countries to give back each others POW's who have spent years in prison camps as the rest of the world had not even heard of the conflict." Which followed it. Between this and the work done by the ARW in East Timor, it kind of contradicts your arguement. Not to mention the Irish forces involved in UN peacekeeping in the Baltics, Lebannon and the Congo in the 60's. These are sent out by Ireland under a UN mandate.

"If, as it seems, you are determined to trace the ancestory of American, Australian people etc. and selectively claim their deeds on behalf of whatever place their ancestors hailed from, then God help us."
I was making a point about Irish influence in the world. And if you must know, there is a special relationship between Ireland and it's Diaspora. Those who left Ireland in search of a better future for themselves and their family and doing so was an example to all who were left behind. We are proud of the achievments of their ancestors. As a symbol of this relationship is the light which shines in the front window of the presidential house to help the diaspora 'find their way home' (scoff if you must ;-)). Britain was always proud of it's natural resources such as 'British Steel' why can't the Ireland be proud of it's natural resource, it's people?

Slugfest
"They forgot who they are -- or rather, who they've claimed to be -- as soon as money started pouring in. The Irish, in essence, are the 'new Americans'."

A year ago I probably would have agreed with you. I read a book called 'Irish on the Inside' by senator Tom Hayden who stated how Irishness was slowly being erased from American society as Irish-Americans moved up the social ladder and taking on more 'anglo' traits because of that. I saw similarities with that in Ireland too. But I've seen signs that because of Irelands new affluence, Irish culture is becoming more strong and confident. This is happening amoung Irish-Americans too.
I remember seeing an episode of 'Rab C. Nesbitt' a good few years ago which dealt with an American fast food resteraunt opening in his area. It dealt with those very themes of the invasion of American culture into British society, in it's own way. Just take a look at Tim Westwood for God's sake! This is a problem if you want it to be. I do not see a problem with multi-culturalism.

Yoda

There is no nice way of putting this. No matter what you claim on family history or experience - I don't believe you.
There is far too much solid evidence elsewhere that runs completely counter to your pathetic attempt to rewrite history.

I don't believe you.

Well, that's obvious. Enjoy your bigotry.

No skin off my nose.

I'll say one thing for myself.I got this thread going! Jacko says to ch in dallas: "Learn something from your own history. From Jamestown, to Plymouth to The Founding Fathers ect."Yes they were Brits but all very different from each other. East Anglian seperatists to Plymouth, Quakers to Pennsylvania, routed Royalists to Virginia, violent Scots-Irish to the wild south. The Founding Fathers were just good Englishmen asserting their Magna Carta rights against a Hun King. Please read the book "Albions Seed" Oxford Press. That being said however, after the Famine, Irish flooded the country. They assimilated quickly, cuz they spoke English. To tighened this up, our laws are English Common, based on Magna Carta, our folkways are from all over the Isles, our people are from every nation on earth, many Irish. My real question is, back to New orleans, is that if a man's drowning, why do you have to know his politics before throwing him a rope?

9countyprovience
When has a legitimate Irish government ever declared hostilities against anyone?
Never. Even while Hitler and his hordes threatened the whole of Europe, Ireland, apart from those IRA members who made common cause with the Nazis, stood idly by and did nothing.
You originally claimed that when the USA is in difficulties Ireland "will be there". Not if history is anything to go by.
That is separate from Irish citizens, despite their government and the introspective views of the majority of their fellow citizens, choosing to fight for freedom in the uniform of other countries. But please don't then claim them as representing their country. If they had been truely representative of their country they would have sat at home and left it to others to fight for freedom.

9County:

Good points all around, I admit. And no, i don't think there's anything wrong with multi-culturism ... I'm an American after all. I think it's great that more and more immigrants from all over the world are now calling Ireland home. (And truth be told, if i ever get around to getting my Irish passport, so will i!)

But ... Ireland's newfound wealth has put the country at a crossroads, and I truly feel that they (the Irish) should be very, very careful about how much of other cultures they take on.

Now before you think I'm a racist/xenophobe, let me explain what i mean: I love my country dearly, but it has its downsides (as i've voiced in my last posts). I admire Ireland dearly, but i fear that it will soon take on the worst traits of America. When i reference 'taking on cultures,' I don't in any way mean ethnic cultures, i mean the social culture of capitalism beyond compassion.

ch in dallas
And your point is? Other, that is, than proving you have taken my advice and studied a bit in the interim and finally agreed with the point I was making - that culturally, historically and politically the US is much closer to Britain than Ireland.
Previously, before you checked a few books on the subject, you repeated O'Dowd's entirely opposite claim.

"My real question is, back to New orleans, is that if a man's drowning, why do you have to know his politics before throwing him a rope?"

Of course not. But the point made by O'Shea and backed by Browne (who I do believe is fundamentally anti-American) is that if the guy's family is standing there and they have lots of ropes and lifejackets etc. it makes more sense to move down the river bank and throw your rope to someone else who is drowning but has no-one else to help him.
Stretching the analogy to breaking point of course.

CH in Dallas:

"My real question is, back to New orleans, is that if a man's drowning, why do you have to know his politics before throwing him a rope?"

God, I certainly hope not.

But ...

"That being said however, after the Famine, Irish flooded the country. They assimilated quickly, cuz they spoke English."

Whaaa???? What do you consider quickly? My grandparents didn't come over until the 1920s, and they were treated like dirt and lived in hovels in the South Bronx. My grandmother was given a scholarship to Trinity (which she of course didn't take -- damn Elizabeth!!!), but was nothing more than a menial servant in America. Does the term 'Irish need not apply' ring a bell?

Jacko: "For better or worse, culturally, politically and historically the US is very much the son (or daughter) of Britain."

Comme ci, comme ca... America, even in its colonial days, was not a single monolith of good English Protestantism, including Maryland, a Catholic colony, iirc, and Georgia, which was, iirc, a penal colony.

As for who shows up when there is a problem, a distinction needs be made between Ireland and the Irish. Ireland, the nation, usually can't make it, usually for a good reason... or not. The IRISH, on the other hand, tend to jump in with both feet. The Irish Brigade of the "War between the States," was pretty much enlisted straight off the coffin ships, whilst I do seem to remember XXX Corps being spearheaded by an Irish formation for Operation: Market-Garden. Likewise, in America, the Irish have been the sinews that hold society together for generations -- cops, firemen and the like.

Even Ireland contributed to WW2, albeit in small, subtle ways. Downed English pilots were repatriated, Germans interned. Likewise, how much Irish agricultural production went to Germany, vs. the amounts that went to England? Irish neutrality during WW2 was about that of the pre-Pearl Harbor United States -- just because boots weren't on the ground doesn't mean aid and comfort weren't provided... and just because Irish contributions weren't as high profile as the RAF's "Eagle Squadroon" doesn't mean they weren't there.

Jacko
"When has a legitimate Irish government ever declared hostilities against anyone?
Never."
You make this sound like a bad thing. Nothing wrong with being a good neighbour. It's the Christian way you know ;-)

"Even while Hitler and his hordes threatened the whole of Europe, Ireland, apart from those IRA members who made common cause with the Nazis, stood idly by and did nothing."
I addressed this issue already. Might I refer you to my 03:44 PM post? If you don't agree with the points, say so. Repeating yourself is not debating.

SlugFest

You've read my mind. Ireland is indeed at a crossroads. I am also worried about what direction the country takes. The magazine 'The Economist' voted Ireland the best place in the world to live due to it's wealth, political freedom and family values. We can thank De Valera for the last point but this is the one most in peril. These values translated into society, so we all used to look after each other, but this aspect of Irish life is being eroded. As you state correctly, the gap between rich and poor is widening. There are people working in jobs that pay too poorely to live on, but are large enough that the people cannot apply for social benifits to help them pay the bills. This leads into a terrible downward spiral into debt. There are a lot of people in this situation. The government seems to think that while the economy is doing well, they're doing well but thats not the case. As the programme 'Rip-off Republic' shows, the government are out of touch with the people. Some of the issues raised touch off this widening gap, so a number of the population are aware of the dangers. Hopefully there are enough to make a difference.

"At that point in time we were also facing a possible invasion from Britian."

That says it all in terms of seriously "addressing" points. That sort of nonsense might fly with the likes of Noraid but not with anyone who knows anything about the situation at that time. The truth is most Irish would have preferred to see the Nazis win as long as it meant Britain was beaten.
De Valera publicly extending his and the Irish nation's regrets on the death of Hitler says it all.
Another rewriting of history is this nonsense about Ireland "quietly" working for the allies behind the scenes. Nothing could be further from the truth. During the blackouts, lights blazed every night in the Free State to give the German bombers a reference point for their aerial attacks on Britain and Northern Ireland.

Slugfest, Irish need not apply certainly rings a bell. My Irish family lived like shit too, but it was a lot better shit here than in Ireland. Your family came here in 1920 with nothing, right? 85 years later you're doin' pretty well, I bet. Meanwhile our cousins are still refighting the Boyne.

9County:

I'm in complete agreement with you, except for the De Valera aspect ... while I give him his due for spiriting the country and driving home the importance of family and self-suffiency ('self', in this sense, meaning the Irish as a whole entity), I think he was too hardline with some of his 'family values', which pretty much gave women the shaft. I'm all for keeping a family together, but many, many women were put in impossible situations without the chance of parole (otherwise known as divorce). I do, however, admire his mettle when it came to bucking heads with not only FDR, but JFK as well.

That said, i can't help but wonder if some of what's going on in Ireland today (serious drop in people who go to church, etc.) is perhaps a backlash against what people perceive to be De Velera's ghost.

Dread Cthulhu

"..and just because Irish contributions weren't as high profile as the RAF's "Eagle Squadroon" doesn't mean they weren't there."

Have you heard of 'Paddy' Finucane? Take a look:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about931.html&highlight=

Jacko, Oh yea, I quickly went and read an 800 pg book to boil it down for you. I bet I was reading Hobbes and Locke when your ma was still wipin' your arse. But enough of that. I was actually goning to agree with you that we're a rich country and if Ireland wants to use her resourses to help the less fortunate, please do so. But at least let us get our dead buried before the sniping begins.

ch in dallas (are you sure it isn't JR in Dallas)

You'll excuse me if I mention that your alleged breadth of reading isn't reflected much in your contributions.
Like your agreeing with O'Dowd a la: "Jacko, I disagree with your comment that America is much more culturally aligned with Britian than Ireland."
Reading books is one thing but, as you so amply illustrate, learning from them is quite another.

Jacko
"That says it all in terms of seriously "addressing" points. That sort of nonsense might fly with the likes of Noraid but not with anyone who knows anything about the situation at that time."

Ah you are an Irish historian! Great. Then you know that if Ireland were to suddenly become pro-german or it looked likely that Germany would use Ireland as a 'backdoor' into Britian, Allied forces would invade Ireland. Churchill is noted for saying that an invasion of Ireland was possible. No more than 10 years had passed between the war of independence and the outbreak of WW2. The country was partitioned. Do you expect a country that had been through all this to just snuggle up to their former 'masters'? Get your mind into the mindset of the day. This was never going to happen. The only enemy Ireland had in those days was Britian.

"De Valera publicly extending his and the Irish nation's regrets on the death of Hitler says it all."
Indeed. That says it all about De Velera. He was advised by fellow ministers not to do it. De Valera done a lot of things for himself and out of stuborness. He is famously quoted before the outbreak of the civil war "The majority have no right to do wrong!" as regards the referendum for the treaty. This shows De Valera did as he pleased, regardless of public opinion.

"Another rewriting of history is this nonsense about Ireland "quietly" working for the allies behind the scenes. Nothing could be further from the truth."

Please, point me towards a reference that disputes the points I've mentioned.

"During the blackouts, lights blazed every night in the Free State to give the German bombers a reference point for their aerial attacks on Britain and Northern Ireland."

A reference point? To let them know they've flown too far? Is this some type of narrow-minded reference to a fast show sketch (when you see the tree on the right, you've gone too far).

You seem to be great at shooting down other peoples points even though weblinks/family insights have been provided. Care to support some of your above claims with a reference?

Jacko, did you listen to O'Shea on Morning Ireland yet? When making the point about not helping the drowning man whose family had ropes and floats, and moving down the river to help the drowning man who had no one helping, O'Shea seemed to be of the opinion that because America is awash with billionaires (flooded is the slightly inappropriate/insensitive word I believe he used), Ireland had no need to help, apart from sending a letter or two. (Very Clintonesque, maybe, I feel your pain?) The interviewer then pointed out that many countries that do get aid, such as India, are also awash with very rich people, and yet for some reason it is ok to help them but not okay to help America. Well, then O'Shea shifts the goalposts, it's not actually the wealth of America, it's because the American government does try to help it's poor (how terrible of them) and aid should go to where governments don't help its poor (presumably where dictators steal aid to line their own pockets and let people suffer?).

O'Shea was all over the map. Aspects of his points may have some merit, however, the motivation of making them comes across as purely fueled by ultra left anti-Americanism. Perhaps it is just the infamous Irish chip on his shoulder which begrudges anyone who is somehow better off?

Jacko, Your rapier-like wit has punctured me heart. I hope it tisn't fatal. My main problem is I'm not sub to the article and can only relate my experiences as an American wounded by anti-americanism. I can't point counter-point this or that line in the article. May I say in all seriousness and humility that scoring debating points is inferior to really listening to what the speaker has to say.

Els
No I haven't but I read newspaper reports on that interview and further comments by him.
I certainly wouldn't have put it as he did but I think his comments reflect more the type of forceful, straight-talking guy that he is rather than any anti-Americanism or lack of sympathy with the people of New Orleans.
I think, actually, that his anger was directed more at the Irish gov. than at anyone else.
As for India. Well of course there are some very rich people there, but they aren't exactly as noted for their philantrophy as their American counterparts, are they.
As well, percentage-wise of the population they are an awful lot thinner on the ground.

"A reference point? To let them know they've flown too far? Is this some type of narrow-minded reference to a fast show sketch (when you see the tree on the right, you've gone too far)."

If this is so ludicrous a proposition why do you think black-outs were enforced in the first place? And do you seriously think that during the second world war all a pilot had to do was insert map references into a computer or something and the plane just delivered you to the spot. Wise up, an awful lot depended on visual reference points and the Free State did its best to provide the Germans with them.
Incidentally, very impressed with the de Valera "family values" you praised. Particularly the ones relating to Fethard-on-Sea where he refused to condemn a sectarian boycott against local Protestants that resulted in families almost starving to death.
Yeah, all round old Dev. was a leader to be proud of.

"an awful lot depended on visual reference points and the Free State did its best to provide the Germans with them. "

You still haven't provided a reference for this. Is it also possible that the lights were not turned out because Ireland wasn't at war and didn't need to?

"Incidentally, very impressed with the de Valera "family values" you praised."
This is an own goal on my part actually. I didn't make my point clear. I am against traditional 'Catholic family values' as I think a lot of those values are backward. I didn't like that whole 'A womans place is in the home' attitude that Dev had. I did not know of the incident you mentioned and am horrified by it. What I sould have made clear is that Dev kept family values, right or wrong close to government and the formation of this countries constitution. Therefore government policy always kept an eye on the subject.

"Yeah, all round old Dev. was a leader to be proud of."
I believe that Dev was more harm than good for this country. I certainly would'nt be proud of him.

So are you going to show us where you are getting your historical 'facts' from or are you going to continue 'baiting' nearly everyone on this thread?

Mod chop

"A reference point? To let them know they've flown too far? Is this some type of narrow-minded reference to a fast show sketch (when you see the tree on the right, you've gone too far)."

If this is so ludicrous a proposition why do you think black-outs were enforced in the first place? And do you seriously think that during the second world war all a pilot had to do was insert map references into a computer or something and the plane just delivered you to the spot. Wise up, an awful lot depended on visual reference points and the Free State did its best to provide the Germans with them.
Incidentally, very impressed with the de Valera "family values" you praised. Particularly the ones relating to Fethard-on-Sea where he refused to condemn a sectarian boycott against local Protestants that resulted in families almost starving to death.
Yeah, all round old Dev. was a leader to be proud of.

Not to dilute your lovely arguement with something as mundane as fact or history, German nighttime bombing was guided by a radio-based navigational system, not the "blazing lights of the Irish Free State."

http://www.answers.com/topic/knickebein

*sigh*

somedays, you're just reminded that quotes, posting and a fever just doesn't mix well...

9countyprovience, Thanks for the kind but stern words way up the thread. I was "Occupied." America right now needs friends as much as military allies. Friends don't always agree but do remain amiable. Problem with anti-americanism in Europe right now is that it doesn't seem to be opposed, this article not withstanding. It reaches the highest levels. Maybe not in Ireland, but I'm thinking Galloway in GB, Chirtac, de Villipan, Herr Helmut. Hell, half of Labour in GB, with the Tories weak as water. Serious question: Could I walk around your town with an American flag tee shirt as a tourist?? Tell me honistly what would happen.

ch in dallas

Honestly, you'd probably be told on a number of occasions that "George Bush is a c*nt".

There is a very good Irish American comedian in this country called Des Bishop. He's originally from New York but his parents moved back here when he was young, so he has a brilliant grasp of the differences between American life and Irish life and the attitudes Irish people have towards Americans. His main point about being American in Ireland is the amount of times people come up to him and say, "George Bush is a c*nt"; To which he'd reply, "Well Bertie Ahern is a c*nt" to which the answer usually was, "sure I know that!"
He also makes the point that Irish women are easier (better get that passport stud).

To be honest you won't get much hassle from most of the population. There are the few that will annoy though, but that's the same for me in the States or anyone anywhere else.

Actually, wearing a t-shirt with an American flag won't get you noticed considering we're 'new Americans'. If you wore a t-shirt with 'kiss me I'm Irish' you'd be far more noticable as an American tourist ;-)

ch in dallas
No-one would say a word out of place to you in either Ireland or Britain. There is an intolerable level of knee-jerk "blame it all on the USA" but it certainly doesn't take the form of attacking or insulting US citizens on the streets. Both Britain and Ireland actually have quite a high level of US citizens resident and they are made to feel more than welcome.

CH:

... unless, of course, you get caught up in a riot on the Albert Bridge Road in East Belfast, in which case you'll be pushed and shoved and told to 'go back to America'. Of course, I'm SURE they were only looking after my best interests when they gave me that directive!

9county, you've set my mind at ease. It's the extremists on both sides of the spectrum that cause the trouble. But alas, I have a lass of me own, peggy, with fire red hair and a temper to match!

Jacko, I appreciate those sentiments. And Slugfest, I see where you got your nom de blogg!

CH;

in my defense, i had the pint in me! :)

SlugFest
Yes, but many people in areas like that have a blind hatred that isn't particulary anti-American. They just hate everybody who isn't them. It's a Northern thing, you know.

Jacko:

I know ... I do ... I was just having a wee bit o' craic (and please don't think for a minute that i'm purposely poking fun of what has happened ... Belfast has nothing but my compassion).

Truth is, i was there with my camera and press pass, asking questions ... put another way, i was looking for trouble.

Ah, yes, I distinctly remember the last time I visited Belfast. I can't remember the exact location, but I was running up hill being chased by a pack of rock throwing boys who yelled "Get the Yank!" I haven't been back since, and that was in 1958.

CH

Glad to be of assistance. Tell Peggy I'm sorry if I gave you any ideas!

In all seriousness, someone mentioned earlier that a large part of this anti-US stuff comes from the fact that the US is now the only world power and an obvious target. Also it is at heart anti-imperialist based etc.
I agree with that.
But, if there is to be a world-power - and there always will - I am glad it is the USA.
We should, as well, consider all of the positives the USA has given us.
First in line for me would be Bob Dylan.

... and the Simpsons. Don't ever forget the Simpsons.

Alan McDonald

Good God, Alan, and that was during one of our little peaceful interludes.

Rock N' Roll!! and Family Guy

Martin Luther King, Mark Twain and a constitution that brings a swelling to the breast and a tear to the eye of anyone who believes in individual freedoms.

Steinbeck, Gore Vidal, Marlon Brando, Hank Williams, Mohammed Ali, Little Richard, Benjamin Franklin.

Jerry Springer?

What about the chicks???

Joan Baez, Dorothy Parker, Rosa Parks, Anne Rand,Amelia Earhart, Dolly Madison, Margaret Sanger, Zora Neale Hurston, Eleanor Roosevelt, Margaret Mead, Dorothea Lange, Gwendolyn Brooks, Pearl S. Buck, and every single WAC.

Mohammed Ali was Irish. His grandfather was from Ennis. ;-) (couldn't resist Jacko. only joking. He could play for the ROI football team. Could do with him now Keane's out.)
We can't mention Hank Williams without an honourable mention of Johnny Cash.

SlugFest
For me, the greatest American woman of all time was Abigail Adams followed closely by Janis Joplin.

9county
The former Cassius Clay did have some Irish ancestry apparently.

Jacko,

Ah, Janis Joplin ... a legend, no doubt ... but I still say Baez is/was better!

And I'll defer to you on Abigail Adams ... I'm guessing she could have kicked Dolly Madison's a**.

Most Irish people generally like Americans but not Bush and what hes been up to these past years. What the man does and why he says hes doing it upsets a lot of Europeans and others elsewhere ; for instance, check out the numbers here

hyperlink

The scary thing now is that a lot of people in a lot of places are seriously pissed -off with the US, its made of lot of serious enemies, lost a lot of friends and a lot of innocent people will pay a price for this long after Dubya has his feet up on the front porch down in Crawford

I went to visit Mom for a while , and I come back to see that my mates Jacko and 9county have been waxing poetic about my countrymen. It does my heart good! Good work Slugfest for holding down the fort. Pleasant dreams, Ireland....

Very interesting comments. Of course the USA is hated because it is powerful, and people blame it for what it does and what it doesn't do. Bush has nothing to do with it. I was a university student studying and traveling abroad in the mid eighties, and the bile and hatred directed toward the USA was quite similar then as it is now. Nothing ever changes.

On another note; a major influence in the US is that of the so-called "Scotch-Irish," or Ulster Scots. Many US presidents (Jackson, Buchanan, Reagan, to name just a few) share this heritage. My ancestors on my father's side came from Antrim in the 1740s. Is this related in any way to current "anti-Americanism" in the Republic of Ireland? I'm just curious.

US is now the only world power? Anyone interested in learning Chinese? I wonder how Ireland will interact with China in the business world. Also, personally, the gesture, however small it may be, from any country in support of the Katrina catastrophe is very much appreciated. It's like the neighbour bringing over a casserole to the family enduring a death of a loved one. I'm thinking if Rita comes any closer, I'll run out and buy as many batteries and torches as I can, this one is not looking good either. Maybe even some bottled water.

D'Oracle: "The scary thing now is that a lot of people in a lot of places are seriously pissed -off with the US, its made of lot of serious enemies, lost a lot of friends and a lot of innocent people will pay a price for this long after Dubya has his feet up on the front porch down in Crawford."

Don't kid yourself. Most of the "enemies we made" didn't like us to start with, most of the "friends we lost" were, to quote Tom Lehrer, our "new friends," like Germany and our "traditional" ones, like France... and, per Marx (Groucho, not Karl...) "With friends like these..." As for people dying, I would point out Islamic terrorism existed before that paragon of accomplishment Jimmy Carter hit the stage. Frankly, peanut-man did far more to encourage the bombing set that Bush.

Y'see, the monsters out there, they don't need a reason... they don't even need a cause... they just need an excuse and *ANY* excuse will do... even if they have to make one up.

D'Oracle: "The scary thing now is that a lot of people in a lot of places are seriously pissed -off with the US, its made of lot of serious enemies, lost a lot of friends and a lot of innocent people will pay a price for this long after Dubya has his feet up on the front porch down in Crawford."

Don't kid yourself. Most of the "enemies we made" didn't like us to start with, most of the "friends we lost" were, to quote Tom Lehrer, our "new friends," like Germany and our "traditional" ones, like France... and, per Marx (Groucho, not Karl...) "With friends like these..." As for people dying, I would point out Islamic terrorism existed before that paragon of accomplishment Jimmy Carter hit the stage. Frankly, peanut-man did far more to encourage the bombing set that Bush.

Y'see, the monsters out there, they don't need a reason... they don't even need a cause... they just need an excuse and *ANY* excuse will do... even if they have to make one up.

Joan Baez...Gore Vidal...Eleanor Roosevelt...Dorothy Parker,puhleeese? Are those your favourite Americans?

Heaven help us if anyone in the US had actually listened to them, today the Soviet Union would be in control of Eastern Europe with the gulags working at overtime, and all those nice Estonians and Poles who are doing the work that we're to proud to do now would be helping in the repression and mass slaughter of Afghans for whom the term "democratic election" would be a cruel joke.

The People's Republic of China, a strong and vibrant MARXIST nation would be putting a bullet into the back of the head of any vegetable stall holder who suggested that maybe an open market would be a good thing. They would be moving in to annex Kampuchea after its population mysteriously disappeared as a result of Mr Pol Pot's widely acclaimed agrarian reforms.

Of course South Korea would have ceased to exist long ago. Immediately after the unresisted communist takeover of South Vietnam there would have been declarations of new Socialist Workers Republics in Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia. Re-education camps and more agrarian reform were expected in the countrysides of these nations, this would consist mainly of masses of people digging large pits that were soon filled in again.

In Latin America nasty corrupt right wing dictatorships would immediately be overthrown and replaced by much nastier and even more corrupt left wing dictatorships. Daniel Ortega, Che Guevara and Fidel Castro would be feted by Hollywood and the New York literati as great reformers and human rights activists instead of the psychotic thugs and hoodlums they actually were, while simultaneously the populations of their respective nations starved in what amounted to open air prison camps (ok I grant you that incredible as it may seem this actually occurred!!). The idea that liberal democratic free market governance might be the best solution for Latin America would be met with howls of derision.

In the middle east the world would look on the rise of a virulent form of fascism based on the Koran as a good thing and that America should immediately surrender to it and apologise for any offense it may have caused in the past back to and not exclusively the fall of the Caliphate in 1492 (the year that Christopher Columbus sailed west)

Africa would be...er well Africa.

Well Thomas, I see it's me and you again tonight. looks like Rita'll be bitch-slappen' us both here in about 3 days. Dallas is already full with Katrina evacuees. no place to put many more. Same in Austin I bet. Watch out for the flash floods in those gullies. They fill fast and trap the cars. We're actually gonna get a lottA RAIN if Rita stays on course and goes to Cat-4. Ireland, if you're still a prayin' people, we can use all the prayers we can get.

Guys,

Keep the heads down and your hopes up. Our prayers are with you.

Noam Chomsky and Joseph Heller top my list of favourite Americans.

Harry flashman, you need to have a bex and lie down. Daniel Ortega was not worse than Trujillo. The US helped create the Jihadists using the same logic you do. A million Indonesians died in '65. not a bad effort. Are you really claiming that Deng would not have existed if Gore Vidal had his way? Are you denying that the US bombing of Cambodia helped to increase the fanaticism of the KR? as well as kill about 300,000 peasants. Are you claiming that all those really existing facists and toe clippers (trained by the US in part) were worse than the democratically elected governments of Guatemala, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, which the US helped overthrow? The idea that liberal democratic free market governance might be the best solution for Latin America is met with growing howls of derision by millions of Latin Americans. I could go on, but I'm beggining to rant.

The USA has been wholly taken for a ride by the whole Irish American cult, because thats what it is...and fair play, we take the American money but actually think American's are essentially dumb and ignorant.

Ireland is one of the most anti American nations in Western Europe and its imbedded in the culture of the people. But somehow Ireland has brilliantly taken the concept of Irish Americanism and done the best PR job I've seen since someone went to a large ice covered place and called it Greenland.

The reality is, there wasn't an excuse for the Irish State to stay neutral in WW2. Thankfully some of the citizens had the good wit to join up and fight and have done so before and since.

As regard the whole Irish (as opposed to the wee Ulster 'honest its a language' Scots) fighting
for America, thats a score draw. During the War of Independence, people who you could define as Irish in backgorund fought for the British as well as for the Amerians. Previous posts have shown that they fought on both sides in the American-Mexican conflicts and so on.

A crude sum, but if upto 40% of Americans claim Irish heritage, how come only less 25% claim to be Catholic in relgious background before we start counting all the other immigrant nations that make up the country's populace. Even if you add teh % that stated no religion and took a slice out for inter-religious mixing etc etc, it still wouldnt add up.

If you were born in America and carry an American passport you are American, the Irish bit is merely a heritage that has absolutely nothing to do with the daily life in the USA that you live or the social, political, communcations media and indeed cultural system that you live within over there. It's well known that the number who claim Irish heritage in America and who actually have Irish Heritage ae rather different, same goes for people in Britain who claim irish background..myth and reality...begorra!

This will slay ya, never come across this before but this lil discussion made me do some googling.....

http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm

I could never hate America, or Ireland or the British.
In fact I determinedly don't allow myself to go down that road at all regarding any country. There is an extremly thin line between hating countries or governments and it gradually extending to general populations.
But if I was to start listing the countries where personal freedoms aren't even allowed to be an aspiration never mind a reality, then those three (along with many others, of course) wouldn't get a look in.

Yokel
"Ireland is one of the most anti American nations in Western Europe and its imbedded in the culture of the people"

Can you back that up somehow? Because personally I think it is utter bullshit.

Of course you do Maca, thats because my viewpoint doesn't fit with yours. Makes sense that don't it.

I've lived in worked in the following countries, Ireland, North & South, GB, Germany, France, Spain, Netherlands, Luxembourg and a little in Belgium and in Spain and there I've seen the views of the poltical establishments in those countries towards America, the ordinary Joe view and the media views. Hostility there at all 3 levels to a greater or lesser degree and in Ireland its definitely there alright.

In Ireland there is, for some reason, a fairly deep underlying hositility to the 'American Way' so to speak but what specifically I've never put my finger on, classic case of we don't like but we'll swallow the burgers. I believe its envy and fear at its core. In the absence of physical power against the USA many jump on the moral, social and cultural superiority stands. That goes for the other nations also.

Yokel

"Ireland is one of the most anti American nations in Western Europe and its imbedded in the culture of the people. "

If it's embedded in the culture of Ireland, I'm sure you can put those googling talents of yours to prove that anti-Americanism is a part of Irish culture. Unless you are talking out your as$ and are just making a generalisation.
Interesting link though on the NINA. What's your view on the Nativist movement of the period?

"The reality is, there wasn't an excuse for the Irish State to stay neutral in WW2."

Care to elaborate?

"As regard the whole Irish (as opposed to the wee Ulster 'honest its a language' Scots) fighting
for America, thats a score draw."

You wouldn't believe how many score draws there are throughout history. Napolean's shoch troops were an Irish brigade, formed from the ancestors of the Wild Geese. Napolean was defeated by The Duke of Wellington, who was from Kildare.

Yokel, it's not because you're viewpoint doesn't fit with mine it's because I don't think such anti-Americanism exists in the way you claim.
On the contrary, the US has provided a home to generations of Irish people and I know many people who look on the US with a degree of fondness. We've always had very close relations so your point that anti-Americanism is imbedded in our culture baffles me. I've never seen any "hositility to the 'American Way'" and every single Irish person I know who has visited the US thoroughly enjoyed their visit there and had high praise for both the country & the people.

I've done my own fair share of travel and any "anti-American" sentiment (directed mainly @ Bush US foreign policy) i've seen/heard has come as much from British/Swedish/German/Middle-Eastern/etc people as it has come from Irish.

The Tanaistes famous speech about how "Ireland was spiritually closer to Boston than Berlin" contradicits your viewpoint as this speech hit a core with a lot of people.

I love Americans, conservative and liberal.

My favourite American at the minute is the mover and shaker who was responsible for the best kept secret this weekend. The second democratic election in Afghanistan.

Dread Cthultu,
Re your 2.54am(local ?), I'm ready to believe there always have been nutters out there -probably always will;hell I'm even ready to concede that a fair few of them have a big anti-Bush (if not anti-US)thing going ,but if you are seriously trying to tell me that 50% or more of the plain people of France or Germany were already slobbering screwballs just waiting to hate America when Bush obliged them by doing one of those things that he does , sorry but that does not pass the common sense test !.

Its good -right even, to want to defend but you have to have at least a half plausible line to spin

Think about it -seriously. I'll be back.

D'Oracle:

Re your 2.54am(local ?), I'm ready to believe there always have been nutters out there -probably always will;hell I'm even ready to concede that a fair few of them have a big anti-Bush (if not anti-US)thing going ,but if you are seriously trying to tell me that 50% or more of the plain people of France or Germany were already slobbering screwballs just waiting to hate America when Bush obliged them by doing one of those things that he does , sorry but that does not pass the common sense test !."

Not that I called them "slobbering screwballs," or even implied such, but hey, lets take a look. Off the cuff, its at least 34% in France... ~17% vote for LePen, about the same for the hard left (fringe communist / socialist / hard green). That's just the part of the electorate that self-identifies at loons, since you ask.

As for what I did say / imply -- they were unreliable allies, let me ask you this: how many times have Chirac and Schroeder refreshed their flagging popularity with a gratuitous anti-American commment or position? Given that, along with their "overtime police," the French run about with their language / culture police, lest some horrible anglo-saxon phraseology take root, such as when they had the issue with the term "e-mail" and recommended "Courielle" instead?? How about when the French decided that the eastern, pro-American part of the EU was "rude" and missed a "perfectly good opportunity to 'shut up'" when they came out in support of Bush?

France is living in a prolonged daydream that hasn't been real since pre-Waterloo. As for the Germans, I personally have to wonder about a nation that seem it wants to conquor Europe every couple decades since their unification. Both have a predispostion to sticking a finger in the American eye, given the chance. I ask you: why should I take them seriously, given the above?

9CP: I think a lot of anti-Americanism stems from the fact that America is the worlds only superpower.

One of the most sensible statements on this thread.

Most Americans love the Irish, and vice versa. One American lady with a Texan/Cherokee background once gave me her long family history to prove that she also had some Irish blood in her.

Many Americans look on the Irish (Northern and Southern – we’re all the same to them), as a nation of drinkers, fighters and perennial moaners who have been blessed (and cursed) with an equal amount of good and bad luck. But they love us just the same.

The vast majority of Americans neither know nor care what the Irish think of them (they think we still have a Quiet Man/Angela`s Ashes existence), and even if they did, they are not about to change their attitude towards Irish folk because of anti-American tirades of a few nutters on the Irish loony left.

From yesterday's Ha'aretz, re: the British Holocaust Memorial:

"The museum, which is an extraordinary achievement in public history, includes detailed maps showing the number of Jews killed in each nation occupied by the Nazis. Douste-Blazy asked why no British Jews were listed as murdered, prompting the museum curator to point out, "But Monsieur le minister, England was never conquered by the Nazis during World War II."

The Foreign Minister's response: "Yes, but were there no Jews who were deported from England?"

I don't know if this makes him "a slobbering screwball, D'Oracle... but it does make him something of a maroon...

Dread Cthultu

Even if you want to call them 'self-identified loons' I still think youre judging them -the French and Germans -too harshly ; I know both. They have a good sense of the States -they know there are other views and that this "who'll we invade this week" phase will end. Any real negative vibes you're getting are plain Anti-Bush (and not anti-US). Reassured already?.

The scary factor I mentioned earlier would come from places further afield where far fewer people would see and make that distinction.

Douste-Blazy's been a real bag of laughs for some time now ; un vrai marron.

Even if you want to call them 'self-identified loons' I still think youre judging them -the French and Germans -too harshly ; I know both. They have a good sense of the States -they know there are other views and that this "who'll we invade this week" phase will end. Any real negative vibes you're getting are plain Anti-Bush (and not anti-US). Reassured already?.

Stuff and nonsense and not in the least. They thought Carter feckless (well, this is a bad start -- they were right...), Reagen a cowboy who was going to start a nuclear war, Clinton an "ugly American," and now we're back to cowboy. Anti-American rhetoric was extant prior to Bush and will be extant after Bush. Its roots are in jealousy, primarily, and will exist regardless of which party holds the Presidency.

Besides, their hypocrisy stinks to the heavens -- when was the last time France asked a "mother may I" of the UN Security Council when it launched an adventure into Africa?

Dread Cthulha, You're right. I do seem to remember Les Mirages strafing the Cote D'Ivoire without the blessed U.N. resolution. But you see, the world holds the U.S. to a different standard. We go into Iraq and we're cowboys (what's wrong with cowboys?) but we don't go into Rwanda, so we're racists.

I am not sure Jacko what the contribution of the Italian and German Americans was in WW2, though I believe there was some. For your information, and missed entirely from the television series, "Band of Brothers," a regiment of the American army entirely composed of Japanese Americans played a crucial role in the Battle of the Bulge. Things are not so simple jacko, sometimes people do the right thing regardless of county of origin, they fight for waht is right, i.e. defeating Hitler, and they deserve credit, if they are Italian, Irish, German, etc. Inidentally the "white Rose Society fought Hitler in Germany--they were Germans. And while Japanese Americans fought SS , there mothers and fathers did linger in internment camps.

You are interested enough to comment on history , expand your nowledge and read more rather than re-act so quickly and possibly you might be less rigid in your viewpoints.

Hyphenated--citizen

Dread,

Carter, definitely Clinton and even Reagan were all far more popular abroad than you give them credit for ; certainly thats true in this part of the world.

There is a real difference, a difference in scale with the view of the incumbent. (Did you ck out the link in my first post this thread?)

I dont belive there is an general jealousy thing-at least not nowadays ;the average joes life is now a lot more similar across a lot of the world than in the past.

Off to bed. Get yall later

Dread Cthulha, You're right. I do seem to remember Les Mirages strafing the Cote D'Ivoire without the blessed U.N. resolution. But you see, the world holds the U.S. to a different standard. We go into Iraq and we're cowboys (what's wrong with cowboys?) but we don't go into Rwanda, so we're racists.

CH:

Can't win for losing with this lot... two world wars started by their political system and the lack of political will and *WE'RE* the ones who need guidance.

D.C. Yea, Some just won't admit that the heart of enlightened Europe gave us Prussianism, fascism, communism, and is now tolerating non-indigenous Bin-Ladism. However, check out some of the above posts from Jacko, 9county, 6county et al and see that we do have friends, that while not giving the U.S. gov carte blanche, will take us for the good and the bad.

I have never found myself defending the French before, but for the sake of accuracy I would say that French intervention in Ivory Coast, three years ago next week, certainly prevented a bloodbath in that country.

My family and I personally benefited from their swift response in stopping the rebel advance on the capital. American special forces, flown in from Morocco and Germany, helped secure the safety of my children.

Enough people died as it was, but it would have been a lot worse without a strong and determined French military presence.

When the French military strafed in Ivory Coast last November they were destroying Ivorian planes which had just killed 9 French peacekeepers on a peace line between government and rebel forces.

The French had as much right to intervene in Ivory Coast as other countries had to intervene in Afghanistan and Iraq. Right action does not need the blessing of a corrupt organisation like the UN.

6countyprod: "The French had as much right to intervene in Ivory Coast as other countries had to intervene in Afghanistan and Iraq. Right action does not need the blessing of a corrupt organisation like the UN."

I do not necessarily fault the act in and of itself. In fact, I agree with most everything you just said. However, the high-handed snotty attitude and the hypocritical attitude have *GOT* to go. Either everyone goes through the cesspool at Turtle Bay or no one does. I mean, c'mon -- how does Cuba, Sudan and Saudi get on the UN Human Rights Commission??

DC: how does Cuba, Sudan and Saudi get on the UN Human Rights Commission?? And Zimbabwe!

I have no love for France. It is one of the most unappreciative nations in Europe. A lot of British and American blood was shed restoring French ‘honour’, and not a word of thanks or appreciation.

I can never understand why the US continues to waste so much money paying a quarter of the UN bill. Americans should wise up.

Is there any particular meaning to your name?

6pc, DC is from the Cthulhu Mythos. Just google it ya lazy bastard! :)

Maca, so, when is the movie coming out?

6pc, 6cp, doh!

6COUNTYPROD, ch here. Actually, I think we're all on the same page here. I do defend France's actions in the Cote d'Ivoire. It's the HYPROCRICY (sp?). Where were the millions marching in Europe with signs saying Chirac=Hitler, France Kills Blacks, No Blood for Ivory, or similar rubbish. I'm glad you and the kids got out, I just hope you hope the same thing for Iraqis and Afganis. And yes I think the U.N. is a thugocracy. Giving non-democratic states a vote does not make a world forum a democracy.

It's the hypocrisy

Do the large media outlets have any standards by which they can be accused of hypocrisy? I don’t think so. They can make the most outrageous statements, the recent example being ‘blame everything on Bush for Katrina’, with little or no chance of the actual truth being brought to light.

Ann Coulter had an interesting comment to make on hypocrisy: "The reason any conservative's failing is always major news is that it allows liberals to engage in their very favorite taunt: Hypocrisy! Hypocrisy is the only sin that really inflames them. Inasmuch as liberals have no morals, they can sit back and criticize other people for failing to meet the standards that liberals simply renounce. It's an intriguing strategy. By openly admitting to being philanderers, draft dodgers, liars, weasels and cowards, liberals avoid ever being hypocrites."

6countyprod: "I have no love for France. It is one of the most unappreciative nations in Europe. A lot of British and American blood was shed restoring French ‘honour’, and not a word of thanks or appreciation.

I can never understand why the US continues to waste so much money paying a quarter of the UN bill. Americans should wise up.

Is there any particular meaning to your name?"

In no particular order, Dread Cthulhu is an... entity coming out of American horror pulp fiction. I'm a fan of the man from Providence, RI.

As for paying for the UN... I love what it stands for on paper, hate what it does in real life. Given the actions of the Third World delegates when the power went out a couple years back, maybe its just a real inefficient crime prevention program. There are some horrendous structural flaws, starting with hiring practices, nepotism and corruption. The quotas hiring of third world deadwood, from Kofi on down, has got to stop if there is to be a chance of sorting the mess out.

As for the French... I more or less pity them, when I think of them at all. They are a nation heading toward their twilight -- perhaps they may be forged anew, but I tend to doubt it. They are prominent in the UN by dint of an accident of history, having made themselves an "emmerdeuse" ever since.

"6pc, 6cp, doh!"

Oops, tpyo! ;)