WHY was this parade considered necessary? Just asking.

I thinks it's necessary in order to show baby Jesus how much the OO love him. If they don't parade or split the peelers open trying He'll send them all to hell.

Outrageous!

Paisley and his half-wit fellow travellers in the Orange Order now have blood on their hands.

His performance on television on Thursday evening reminded me of one of those Al Quaeda leaders who make risible bombastic speeches on video tape which are then followed 'funnily enough' by some form of terrorist outrage. " A spark that may ignite a fire that may not be put out" ?!?!?!?

[Mod edit - watch the language]

Nice to see the cops standing by and allowing more scum to bring Belfast to a halt on a Saturday afternoon. Still, I suppose it will give them a chance to meet up and have a chat with their old friends from Garnerville.

Homes have been attacked in the Short Strand

A number of homes have had windows broken and 2 residents taken to hospital suffering from shock

I'm sure we're all nervous and in fact pissed-off about this latest episode parade Alamo, which simply shouldn't be happening, but I can't help feeling a little disturbed by the tabloid-esque enthusiasm with which this evolving story is being reported on this thread.

It seems many people would have found it all a bit dull if today was just to fizzle-out a la Drumcree VIII or whatever it was.

Once again - though I know the money's not bad - who would be a cop?

Nationalist homes in Ligionel also under attack

I've just returned from the bottom of the Grosvenor Road where I was visiting relatives. I watched as 200 loyalists emerged from Sandy Row and headed towards West Belfast with the express intention of starting mayhem.

And start mayhem they did. I watched from the bridge overlooking the end of the Westlink as loyalists, some as old as 50, walked straight up on to the Grosvenor and attacked passers-by. I was standing with an SDLP representative who couldn't believe what she was seeing and she immediately contacted Foreign Affairs in Dublin to complain.

The police, about as much use as tits on a nun, stood idly by before moving in 15 minutes later to push the loyalists back. The PSNI then proceeded to block off Durham St, directly facing the bottom of Sandy Row, and again did nothing to shift the congregation of knuckle-draggers who had gathered facing the police station.

So a few questions for both the PSNI and unionist parties:

1) Why was this illegal assembly not prevented from progressing up the Grosvenor Road? Why did the PSNI block Durham St (which was largely empty) instead.

2) Why do unionist parties continually support these empty-headed workshy morons, whether in quiet whispers or in the tea-and-Jaffa Cakes surroundings of the loyalist commission, while complaining about alleged IRA activity happening thousands of miles away in Colombia? Jeffrey Donaldson and his odious sidekick Willie Frazer (from FARC - Families Against Roman Catholics) must have felt really at home when they met the top Colombian police and politicans this week. All that talk of shoot-to kill and right-wing pogroms must have brought a tear to their eyes.

Finally, one thing is startling obvious from what I have just described. Loyalists and unionist parties have one aim and one aim only: to provoke a reaction from republicans. This will bring the whole house tumbling down and everyone from the Sandy Row millie with more jewellery than BA Baracus to the landed unionist gentry will be able to say 'it was themmuns!!'; while the media (with the honorable exception of the Daily Ireland) continue to ignore the facts.

Loyalism is populated by scum. Always has been, always will be. I was left in no doubt of that after witnessing what I did today.

I hope that poor man makes a recovery and the dirty bastards who tried to kill kim are caught. When will these attacks on Catholics stop? Will Paiseley not withdraw his comments or at least shut his mouth in future?
His hands are dripping and it aint ketchup.

Loyalists attack homes close to Distillery st on the peaceline

Stand off between masked loyalists and police (backed up by the army) at bottom of ravenhill road/short strand

An attack on the Short Strand has been described on the BBC as an attack by the residents on 'demonstrators'.

Can someone with a balaclava on his head be classed as a 'demonstrator' ?

The PSNI shows it's patheticness again. Scarved people blocking a major road should be immediately arrested en masse.

I'm annoyed once more with our unionist politicians, who instead of condemning violence and publicly opposing it's use, are instead describing it as inevitable, as though they have no opinion on it. I think we can comfortably predict that any move the police might get around to making against the protestors will be described as heavy-handed by at least one unionist politician.

The Orange Order has issued a statement saying, among other things that what they describe as the suppression of their culture would not be allowed to continue "without consequences".

I wonder what sort of consequences they are talking about. If the consequences it suggests are violent ones, it sounds like the Orange Order is trying to make a case for proscription.

Orange Order supporters (members?) are now petrol bombing the PSNI and British Army.

Why are these filth not arrested immediately? We still have more police per capita than anywhere else in W. Europe. If they need some help im sure the Gardai could and would do a better job.

Gunfire and blast bombs coming from the Orange ranks.

RTE reported that loyalists are firing blast bombs on the West Circular Road, the PSNI have reported several injuries

Shots fired at police lines during rioting (bbc)

So, internet generals, what should the police do?

Fire detested plastic bullets? Live rounds?

I really do think some people are enjoying this and, as it is bound to affect most of us one way or another, that is disturbing.

GavBelfast,

I think the PSNI should fire plastic bullets at the loyalist 'protesters', aiming at their heads. If its good enough for Ardoyne, its good for those causing this current trouble.

Thank you Declan. Do you approve of them being fired generally, in a controlled manner in serious situations, regardless of who is doing the rioting?

(FWIW, I do - they are a necessary weapon for the police here.)

Well Gav, let's put it this way: no amount of protesting from nationalists have managed to get rid of plastic bullets, so if they're going to be used, let them be used 'impartially', not just on taigs.

Can't wait to hear the orange order saying that the violence was nothing to do with them

Declan, given that other police forces have been quite candid in saying that they would have used REAL bullets if confrnted with the sort of situations that have been encountered here, it's hard to see that continuing campaigns against the use of plastic bullets are anything other than another stick to try to beat the PSNI with.

In situations where life and limb are being risked or challenged, then they should be allowed to be used.

It would be great if they were not needed and if the polkice could be routinely unarmed, too, but that's not likely here for a long time.

Wes,

Of course the Orange Order will wash its hands of the trouble and not seek to cool things until it gets TOO hot. That's the way here - there are many cut of the same cloth.

"So, internet generals, what should the police do?"

Arrest people who participate in illegal blockades of roads.

Cahal, yes, that's what should happen - whoever does it and whenever its done.

That's being consistent and, also, lays the marker.

Well done Mark or whoever at HQ's organising the minions' today, "Brian","Frank","Harry" and "Tony" did you proud with their prompt reporting.

GavBelfast,
Agree with you 100%, but the PSNI are being prevented from doing their job by their political masters. In order to preserve a "peace process" which has become a sick joke, the normal rules of policing have been thrown out the window.
Fire the plastic bullets and if that doesn't clear the scum of whatever denomination are rioting this week, then I would be tempted to bring in the live rounds.

Comrade Stalin,
You're the only other person(apart from Gav) on this thread that doesn't seem to be secretly enjoying what's developing. You've also hit it bang on the head. The Unionist politicians are developing their skills of contextualising violence from their community, not quite as good as the Shinners yet, but they're getting there.

Well done Mark or whoever at HQ's organising the minions' today, "Brian","Frank","Harry" and "Tony" did you proud with their prompt reporting.

GavBelfast,
Agree with you 100%, but the PSNI are being prevented from doing their job by their political masters. In order to preserve a "peace process" which has become a sick joke, the normal rules of policing have been thrown out the window.
Fire the plastic bullets and if that doesn't clear the scum of whatever denomination are rioting this week, then I would be tempted to bring in the live rounds.

Comrade Stalin,
You're the only other person(apart from Gav) on this thread that doesn't seem to be secretly enjoying what's developing. You've also hit it bang on the head. The Unionist politicians are developing their skills of contextualising violence from their community, not quite as good as the Shinners yet, but they're getting there.

Of course, there is one new difficulty for the "political masters" as you've put it, Paul.

The firing of loyalist weapons at the police can, in no way, be regarded as 'internal housekeeping'.

As for the reporters (above) on the spot, well, yes, impressive use of wireless and clearly exceptionally reportable lap-tops there by a convenient press corps, but I think I'll rely on BBC, RTE, PA and Reuters if it's all the same, as I'm sure will casual lookers-in with an ounce of wit.

Why not let them walk down a road, everyone else does every day of the week .

Why not let them walk down a road, everyone else does every day of the week .

I don't think it's "political masters". I don't think the PSNI have been explicitly directed to avoid arresting people.

Instead, I think the PSNI probably lack the courage to make arrests which may have political implications. To a certain extent this is unsurprising. For any given arrest in these circumstances, there will be someone who will believe the police will have acted unfairly.

I'm not in the least surprised to hear the Orange Order defending law-breaking. A chap from the OO has just come on to defend the blocking of roads by scarved men as ".. frustration of Protestant people as to what they can do to have their ordinary voice heard". When the institutions and politicians take the side of the law-breakers, the police are essentially paralyzed.

Lets do the WALK and stop the TALK

I have just tried to drive along the Albertbridge road.

Was told by a policeman that there is major rioting between loyalists and the police

I know it's a minor issue in the whole scheme of things, but I suspect 'Proms in the Park' from Belfast will not be going ahead?

That will be a major disappointment a lot of people, especially in a week where there was a feel-good mood for a while, and more evidence of grossly stubborn and malevolent people spoiling it for all of the rest of us.

I'd like to point out that the 6.58PM posting was not from me.

Paul/GavBelfast:

I can't speak for anyone else on this thread, but coming face to face with 200 loyalists with nothing else on their minds but mindless violence is not my idea of 'enjoying myself'. Believe what is reported in the media if you wish, but don't discount my version of events (which, as I said earlier, was also witnessed by an elected SDLP representative) just because you don't like what I'm saying.

more like 'bombs in the park'

Disgraceful stuff. Let's not forget the Orange Order pledged its full support to the Love Ulster campaign.

They have alot to answer for.

I live on the Springfield Rd just above the junction with the Grosvenor and what was allowed to happen there today is nothing short of disgraceful. Absolutely shameful.

Shame on the PSNI. Shame on the DUP. Shame on the UUP. Shame on the OO. Shame on Hain et al. Shame on all their apologists who will undoubtedly jump me on this thread.

This place is a disgrace. Yet again, a bunch of triumphalist wankers hold an entire community(ies) to ransom and kick the shite out of them for the non-existant 'right to march'.

March up and down where you are wanted 24/7 and we just won't give a flying fiddler's, but don't bring all this shite to our doors again and again and again.

I'm over from America -- apartment right on the Albert Bridge. Just heard a big boom ... never hired plastic bullets being fired - perhaps that was it.

This may sound like a silly question, but i have to ask: would it be all that unsafe in city centre tonight?

Mate, you'd need your head read to go out in this place tonight.

The Proms in the park are going ahead (City Hall), it's on now. The BBC think it's safe.

I'm amazed but good for them and good luck for all concerned if it's going ahead. I wouldn't dream of going into the city this evening, but then there's a lot of things a lot of us wouldn't dream of doing - it's a shame a sizeable minority don't opt-out of the nefarious things they get upto.

Declan, I wasn't referring to you, that's why I wanted to discuss things with you earlier. I'm glad you were/are safe.

But I simply don't believe a lot of the preceding reports, they seemed convenient. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll rely on a breadth of traditional but generally reliable sources. Even if they are not written with malicious intent, 'Chinese whispers', the internet and a volatile enviroment are hardly a helpful combination.

Where are yesterday's downpours when we need them?

Well, there goes the feelgood factor after the match on Wdnesday. Northern Ireland isn't permitted to have a smile on it's face by these selfish Loyalist fuckers....and unfortunately the gullible goons from the OO and those Unionist parties who'll stand with them as the violence goes on.

Who the Hell are they Loyal to?...themselves and no-one else. They care not a fucking jot about the ordinary decent citizen of our country. Just themselves.

Pathetic.

GavBelfast, thank you for your kind comments.

Iluvni, I couldn't agree with you more.

excuse the language please!

Never mind bruising from rubber bullets, badges of honour for these meatheads.

We need picture evidence, arrests, and jailings.

Digital pictures are free once the NIO buy the kit. Every riot cop should have a camera on his chest, to show the antics our political class excuse.

Offering a reward for identification of pics of these louts on the internet might move things on.

Crimestoppers has some guff but no pics, so maybe PSNI share the judiciary's quaint yet systemic indulgence of offenders who attack our safety, rights, and freedoms.

We clearly need rioting and cars burning in Cultra if we are to make progress on this. Only joking.

I'm not warning that there will be violence in Cultra you understand, as expressing support or sympathy for violent political coercion and terror may now be illegal under UK law.

iluvni, I was thinking the same in relation to the smile and spring in the step that an awful lot of people of all kinds following the good news story from Wednesday.

And now this. Evil, mindless and pathetic.

I don't know what they are loyal to, but it is alien to any outlook I have and to any modern concept of Britishness.

Who's going to get these goons and those orchestrating them off our streets, or are we, for example, relying on a quiet word the next time Martin McAleese has a golf day?

Marty may have the ear of Jackie McDonald

The uvf however seemed to be playing the lead role today

yes, I wonder if Jackie would welcome 'Mary' to Belfast tonight for a chat and a kiss on the cheek.

Re-open the Maze, throw them all back in....
2 benefits: we get our heads showered from them and their troublemaking and the Arsehole of Nowhere Stadium won't be built.
:o)

When you have the likes of Ian Paisley saying there'll be trouble like never before, using language like "igniting" and "sparks"..... that is a clear green light to the foot-soldiers to go and riot. No other interpretation is possible. The sort of language Hitler used to get the Germans to attack the Jews. Beneath contempt. I feel desparately sorry for the good people of norn iron, who have to endure this sort of crap each summer.
I wonder if there's enough evidence to have him arrested on grounds of incitement to racial/religious hatred?

I wasn't distinguishing between "good" and "bad", friends of the Aras or not, etc.

You get the point, I'm sure.

Aquifer: those seem like good practical points, and I can't disagree with the Cultra remarks. I've often thought judges and others in that set needed to experience crime and lawlessness to take it seriously.

spirit-level,

Well said.

[comments deleted by moderator]

The normal rules of commenting apply on this and all threads.

Everyone, no further abusiveness [Moderator]

I am in town and amazed to see queues at the bars and restaurants and the proms going ahead and the water cannon weaving their way through the traffic.

Speaking to a friend in Whiteabbey, loyalists have cut off Mount Vernon, Rathcoole and Monkstown and they are confronting the police in those areas. Apparently as I type the trouble there is worsening.

Clearly the loyalists are staging some sort of orchestrated and co-ordinated push. This will now be the real test of our police service, and our politicians who claim to be opposed to non-democratic means. I hope this situation comes off the boil.

Almost 40 years ago Catholics marched for their "civil rights", at times defying the police and ended up lighting the spark for decades of terror. Today it's Protestants, let us all hope that lessons have been learnt in the intervening years.

Spare a thought for the young Catholic man critically injured after being attacked on the Albertbridge Road last night by a ten strong mob

.........anyone else hear or see a plane with its engines on fire flying low over Belfast this evening?

Malachin,

You have a generation who weren't around to recall just how dangerous it is, especially after dark, when Loyalists are angry and armed on the streets.

You also have the foolhardy.

Keith, the people rioting today have access to housing, jobs and votes unlike the people who rioted 40 years ago. This isn't "Protestants", certainly any Protestants I know think that it is outrageous and they want the perpetrators arrested and prosecuted immediately. The rioters are not even members of the Orange Order, they cannot possibly claim to be religious by blocking roads, wearing scarves and attacking the police.

It's groups of armed thugs defying the law, being backed up to the hilt by politicians who are supposed to be democrats, while the police look on. In the background, Ian Paisley carefully avoids outright condemnation of any demonstration or violence, talking of serious trouble, sparks and tinderboxes as mentioned earlier on, as though he believes the violence which were are seeing is a consequence of something.

I don't know what one can do about the Great Blasphemer. Are there people on this thread who actually voted for the DUP/TF (or maybe I mean DUP/UVF)? Are you happy now? Will you vote for this monster again?

Comrade Stalin

"In the background, Ian Paisley carefully avoids outright condemnation of any demonstration or violence..."

Sure. This is what he said:

"At this difficult time, I am appealing to all law abiding people to remain calm.""

And this after he'd roused the lawbreakers to a frenzy of violence. This is how People of the Lie cover themselves.

I'm considering voting for the DUP at the next elections.

I'd love for you to tell me why I should consider other options, and what those options are.

Denny, indeed, Paisley is extremely careful with his words. Condemnations from unionism are always couched in conditional language. For example, Paisley's plea here is directed at "law-abiding people", as though law-abiding people are going to be the ones contemplating going out to riot. His line is that the problems have been caused by the Parades Commission - not the rioters.

TAFKABO, your options are between parties which apologize for violence, and parties which oppose it. If you support the rule of law, clearly the DUP and UUP are ruled out.

Keith (and others),

these "loyalists" represent no one but themselves, I am pretty certain that a majority of Protestants would be delighted to see the Army set on them.

What BASIC human rights?

The late 1960s was never an excuse for what came afterwards, there would certainly be no excuse for this leading to a new conflict.

It needs to be nipped in the bud and democratically elected politicians who call themselves democrats simply MUST stand four-square with a robust response from the State and its security forces.

Taf:

You could vote SDLP...

Mark is the youngest political leader, Paisley the oldest. Mark has no criminal record either. Mark had more succes holding the line against SF by retaining Foyle and South Down against SF and his strategy also won him South Belfast.

Mark has never worn a red beret and been involved with people who either blew up installations in the 60s, waved gun licences on a hillside in the 80s or imported thousands of arms in the late 80s either. He hasn't employed former UVF killers as constitunecy workers either. Nor did he ever share a platform with Dominic McGlinchey, who many would consider the pararllel figure to Billy Wright.

Now...where is my old pic of Peter Robinson shouldering an Armalite on a visit to Israel...

A Loyalist Lexicon:

Loyalist Not a lot but more than the catholics
Unionist Need the Brits to keep the catholics down
Direct Rule Polite prods love to be patronised
Security Forces Prods love overtime, don't do time
Betrayed Embarrasing at Westminster
Traitor Not in the DUP yet
Antichrist Wee man in a pointy hat
Sodomite Nice wee man
Collusion Van hits tractor in Ballymena
Saved Got a shite job but at least I got jesus
Born Again I want this place to be OK but I'm scared of drugs.
Evangelical All my school mates cleared off to England
Staunch On automatic bigot
True Blue Bile without the yellow streak
Mason Orangeman with two suits
Flags and Emblems Cheap houses here
Paramilitary Gangster operating within a submissive state
Orangeman Owed a living, let the English pay for it
Immigrants Work too hard, kick them across the road to embarrass the lazy fenians
Riot Its a game but don't get on the video

If you support the rule of law, clearly the DUP and UUP are ruled out.

What rule of law?

Peter Hain saying one day that Sean Kelly is a threat,and then rleasing him the next day and refusing to give the proper information to the parole board.

When those who make the law......etc, etc.

( Yes, I'm taking the piss by using that particular quote ).

I'm probably going to vote for the DUP because unfortunately, my neighbours have decided to vote for Sinn Fein.
That's the way it is, for every action, an equal and opposite reaction.
Welcome to realpolitik.

The problem is that the people rioting and bombing on our streets tonight have been given the green flag to do so by the orange order,the DUP and the UUP.

Don't just condemn the rioters, condemn the politicians who lit the touch paper during the week

TAFKABO, so you don't believe in the rule of law, and you think Sinn Fein need to be faced with an equal and opposite reaction, namely a unionist version of the same thing. I'm glad you cleared that up.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of alternatives for people to vote for. There's Alliance, the NI Labour Party, socialists, conservatives, even the natural law party. A vote for any one of those is a vote against paramilitarism and tribalism.

"I'm probably going to vote for the DUP because unfortunately, my neighbours have decided to vote for Sinn Fein."

On a day of sadness, this has to be the saddest thing I've heard....

{Careful, Denny, man not ballocks.]

Denny.

Yes, I agree, it is sad.I never would have thought I could even consider voting for the DUP.

Love Ulster?

Loathe Ulster more like.

No, make that Leave Ulster.

There was a chance, in 1998, but a pragmatic UUP/SDLP partnership that MIGHT have flourished was never backed to enable it to flower.

And now look what we have.

All for no bombs ever again in London (and the wider world means we haven't even managed that).

I am utterely depressed.

"I'm probably going to vote for the DUP because unfortunately, my neighbours have decided to vote for Sinn Fein."

Tafkabo,

This truly is sad,there have been some,not many, but some occassions when you have appeared almost sensible.

Who would you have voted for if your neighbours had voted for The Rainbow Dream Ticket Party?

Declan,

It's a bit late to say it, but it wasn't you I was referring to,I hope you got away safely.

As a Unionist(and Democrat), I don't really care what methods the authorities use to clear these morons off the street.
But this is yet another test that I'm afraid the PSNI are going to fail.

What about the morons called Paisley and Empey who gave the boys the green light to cause all this trouble.

Democrats, don't make me laugh

Reg Empey has past experience in this sort of thing.

Reg co-ordinated protests during his vanguard days

I have just watched the national ITN news

British army land rovers burning and soldiers diving for cover from 'British citizens'

Loyal ????

I live in England, you people are not British, you are not loyal, you are a discrace

Archie:

"You people"???? Assuming you're talking at, and clearly not to, the 'loyalists', perhaps you'd reach your target audience more easily at Love Ulster.

This is a (mostly) unionist site and as such exactly Archie's target audience.

Lib: Gee, I was under the impression that there was a difference between unionists and loyalists. Guess not.

Slugfest

In that case you haven't been following the careers of the last two UUP leaders, both ex-Vanguard, nor that of the leader of the DUP, now the largest unionist party.

Jo,
Slightly off-topic, and I'm concious of the nasty goings on..... But in your (well articulated) argument for an SDLP vote, you stated that Durkan hadn't shared a platform with Dominic McGlinchey. No argument with the fact, but did any of the current Shinner leadership?

Perhaps more importantly, why equate McGlinchey with Billy Wright? Whatever McGlinchey's faults (there were many) he wasn't anti-Protestant - remember he came out of hiding to condemn the Darkley massacre - and Wright's henchman killed a Catholic taxi driver as a 'present' to his boss.

As we try and work to understand each other's positions and live alongside those of differant traditions, let's not airbrush history.

On a more general note I hope all of Slugger's posters are well away from danger.

Lib:

I think you took my last post the wrong way ... I don't want to get in to a who's who and who was who, I simply found Archie's post quite offensive and, quite frankly, quite British. To not have compassion for the city of Belfast riles me to no end. I'd say more, but the good ol' moderator would delete it anyway!

Just to clarify

As an Englishman and a British citizen

Unionists try to portray themselves as being the ultimate British subjects

Well your not

We in Britain believe you to be Irish, not British.

How dare you fly our flag at your marches.

Then attack our soldiers, while our soldiers die in Iraq

We don't recognise you as British, so find a home somewhere else.

Just seen the BBC national news and all those good 'christian' members of the loyal orders.

Very dignified indeed.

It is fair to say to the Orange Order:

'Your boys tried to block the Albert Bridge and isolate the Strand but they battered you Loyalists off the road. You had to ring the police to save your pathetic balaclava clad scum. Be off with you.'

This is great. Just great, the real cause of all the hassle is out in the open and that is naked sectarianism against Non-Prods.
I hope the world is watching. Nationalists have said lets try and work out our differences. Unionist have said guns, decontamination period, while maintaining that they have nothing to do with the general situation in Northern Ireland.
Well excuse this mayhem will ye. Mainstream middle class people organised this and every middle class Unionist has got to ask themselves is this the way ye want to go on. The answer from elements within nationalism will be sound gloves off. Is that what ye want another thirty years of pure madness or try to sort out this whole mess through the G.F.A. and move towards a pluralist society.
Don't like the G.F.A. do ye have any other reasonable suggestions ?
Like time to get yourselves proper political representation or form a new party from scratch or something, the ones ye vote for are nutcases
Keep it real.

And it is fair to say to Crat - undefeated army -don't make me laugh. I'll bet these "10 big men" that got one of yours - (rip lets hope) was actually 2 13 year olds. Since you are obviously so hard we should hear no more about the poor Short Stranders who canny get to a doctor.

Television coverage tonight showed orange order members trying to break through the gates at Workman Avenue on the Springfield Road.

Religious ?????????????

Tell you what.. andy, martin, braniel, archie, mas, alan, george, cedar, steve, susan, johnny, rocky, sleepless, wes, harry et al...

Pick a nom de plume.. and KEEP to it.

Loyalist,

"I'll bet these "10 big men" that got one of yours - (rip lets hope) was actually 2 13 year olds."

Your comment has shown exactly what you are - a disgusting, depraved, hate-filled bigot. It is something that is a fundamental of the loyalist psyche.

I think it's fair to say that this particular 'Loyal Order' has reached a defining moment (and we like those here, don't we?).

Orde also appears to have called a spade a spade.

Empey's utterances on the last Radio Ulster bulletin of the day were drivel even by his standards and, well, the Demon Doctor is the Demon Doctor.

I maintain what I said earlier is true: most of the notionally Protestant/Unionsist community here would welcome the security forces, and especially the Army, dealing with these criminals in the most robust way possible.

"Outrageous!

Paisley and his half-wit fellow travellers in the Orange Order now have blood on their hands."

You`ve some cheek. The only lesson coming from Nationalists, the Parades Commission and the government is that violence pays. He who creates the greatest havock gets his way...or so it seems.

*Talks had 'agreed on march going ahead'*
BY STEPHEN DEMPSTER
Political Correspondent
s.dempster@newsletter.co.uk

NEGOTIATIONS between nationalists and the Orange Order had agreed the
Whiterock parade could walk its traditional route along Workman Avenue,
it has been claimed.
But police and Parades Commission intervention "scuppered the deal" and
threw the whole issue into chaos, it has also been alleged.
Ulster Unionist parades spokesman Michael Copeland has said he
understands that the North and West Belfast Parades Forum -which
includes Orangemen - had reached a deal with nationalist residents after
months of dialogue to overcome the dispute.
However, the Parades Commission has disputed that any accommodation had
been reached.
In a statement, Mr Copeland said: "Prior to the intended Whiterock
parade in June this year, a series of meetings were held during which
nationalist residents raised five major concerns."
He said four of these concerns were satisfactorily resolved. It is
believed the Orange made concessions on each.

The fifth issue surrounded the route of the Whiterock parade with
particular reference to Workman Avenue.
"My understanding is that grudging acceptance from residents on the
Workman Avenue route was forthcoming," said Mi Copeland.
But in the intervening period a road was constructed through the Mackies
factory site providing a new route for the parade that had never been
discussed.
It is believed that a senior PSNI officer in the area suggested that the
parade should be redirected this way, without consultation.
Mr Copeland claimed: "The Parades Commission in their recent
determinations ignored the understandings reached prior to June and
based their determination on the view of this police officer and his
discussions with unspecified nationalist interests.
"This disastrous intervention is driving the entire community to the
brink. The incestuous relationship between the police and Parades
Commission must be clarified. Each seems to be operating in the best
interest of the other - and not the community they serve."
But in a statement, the parades body denied this, saying it had placed
the same limited restrictions on the proposed September 10 parade as
applied on June 25.
"Since June we regret to say that no progress has been made in taking
forward a process of dialogue or the exploration of a local accommodation."

*Message is that violence pays - MLA*

THE Parades Commission and the Government have sent a message to
loyalist supporters of Whiterock Parade that violence pays, it has been
claimed.
North Belfast MLA Fred Cobain said the commission had dismissed Orange
Order involvement in dialogue over the contentious walk and had sought
to appease nationalist rioters.
The clear message, he said, was that, .when nationalists threatened
violence, they got what they wanted instead of being punished.
The Orange walk past Ardoyne shops on the Twelfth night had been met
with full-scale rioting and the response, Mr Cobain said, was to
re-route the White-rock parade for fear of more of the same.
"On parading, the Orange Order has been told that dialogue and positive
engagement is the key to resolving difficulties.

"The North and West. Belfast Parades Forum was created and dialogue took
place but the result has been Parades Commission determinations that
seem to be more influenced by the threat of republican violence than in
positive engagement from the unionist community.
"Republicans have attacked peaceful parades and the Parades Commission's
response has been to ban the parades rather than seek to protect the
right of people to peacefully celebrate their culture.
"This sets a very dangerous precedent, indeed. From the perspective of
many in the unionist community, it is clear that violence and the threat
of violence pays.
"The Whiterock decision reinforces this view. It also reinforces the
view that nationalists don't want a Prod about the place."

I'm hurt. Disgusting, depraved, hate-filled are all things that are fundamental TO Republicanism.

Loyalist - lick my lanyard

I think you'll find that "demon doctor" you think "notionally unionist" people want nothing to do with just topped the poll - again.

loyalist,

"I'm hurt"

Following the bile you have spewed tonight I hope it's not too trivial.

Just watched the Proms there.
Had a laugh seeing the wee lad hold up the NI 1-0 England banner to the camera from outside the City Hall, raising good natured boos and jeers from the London audience...people waving their flags from all over the UK, having a good time, enjoying a traditional enjoyable famously British evening entertainment.
Then we have those other great British subjects: our fellow countrymen, the 'Loyalists', dedicated to the Queen and country attacking our policemen and soldiers, kicking the heads off Catholics, ruining our Province and destroying any hopes that those in the rest of the UK will want us to remain in the UK. WHo could be bothered with them...and the rest of us with this bullshit carrying on all summer, every summer.

Fools following fools. Sickening.

Where is Attwood?

The PSNI should check gardens immediately. Young Alex may have been injured leaping behind a wall. (they should follow the trail of shoved aside female councillors)

Who gives a toss?
Violence pays. Lesson learned Tony.

The warning signs have been going off all week.
What was the point in re-routing? To prevent a riot? Ha Ha it would be funny if it were not so serious.
Very successful. NOT

What do you expect when you shaft the moderate who enter into discussions, try to reach accomodations and promote cultural aspects? Of course the extremists are going to get the upper hand when the moderates are seen to fail.

Jasus Alan2 will you read my above post what is your soloution.

I do not know what the solution is but it clearly is not the current one.

It was the same with Trimble. He put his neck on the line and got his head chopped off because the government and Nationalists did nothing to support his efforts.

Am I right in thinking that Fred Cobain's argument is that because republicans rioted at Ardoyne on July 12, it means that good-behaved loyalists deserved to march their preferred route?

There is a certain pathetic logic to this - whoever presents the greatest threat today generally gets their way in the future. Maybe loyalism picked today to say "We can present a real threat to the State too".

Who knows.

the problem being that they have not presented a threat to the state

Not even close to it

The Provos only became a real threat when they bombed London.

London honestly couldn't give a piss what the orange order and paramilitaries do within the north

Their exit strategy is ' cheerio'

bouncer

So is loyalism now in opposition to the State, becaus the State isn't loyal enough?

Is this loyalism's way of saying to the State: "Don't abandon us to the nasty Fenians?"

It was all so predictable, the threat of violence is a weapon which can be used by all on the Northern Ireland political front.

There will be the threat of violence if a parade walks a particular road and violence if the parade is stopped from walking a particular road.

It seems to me that the Republicans "who put in all the hard work in over the years to make parades an issue and cause trouble have got their way. Lets just be clear on who is the agitator here.

SF/IRA set out to put the people of Northern Ireland against each other, in this they have succeeded, now the man in the street will have to pay the price.

There will be no Belfast agreement, no peace and no way back.

The Republic of Ireland want the Six counties which make up Northern Ireland and the British government don't.

Isn't it about time the people of Northern Ireland got rid of both parties and shaped their own future.

Independence is a viable solution.

Dave "The Republic of Ireland want the Six counties which make up Northern Ireland and the British government don't."

After 40 years of murder and mayhem? After last night's news reports? We haven't spent decades telling people we meet when abroad that our country is most certainly very different from Northern Ireland without heeding that message ourselves.

If the people of N.I. cannot live together, I cannot see an independent country working. For me it's either learning tolerance of your neighbours in N.I. or else re-partition. I prefer the former, but I genuinely think the latter must be given some serious consideration.

Re-partition!?!

Interesting reporting of last nights violence on BBC Radio ths am, (yawn, good morning)

The OO condemn the bruality of the police, Paisley condemns the Parades Comissiion...
..oh and there was a lot of rioting, bombing and shooting by Loyalist mobs. No word yet on the numbers of police/civilian casualties.

So..the last bit was okay then..? Anyone want to take a guess on the actual and investment loss costs of that front page headlines?

What a pack of bastards.

I hesitate to comment here because I have not kept up to date with what has been happening as I have other things that have occupied my thoughts over the last few days and Slugger and Beano's sites have been my only sources of information. At the same time I comment so much on here that no comment would seem significant (and I don't mean by that that I think that anyone is waiting with baited breath to be enlightened by my analysis).

I support the right to march. (Which will be enough in the eyes of some on here to make this my fault, if just being a unionist doesn't do that already) I support the right to peaceful protest. I do not support the right to riot. I agree with those who say that this violence is enevitable. The appeasement of republian terrorism, including the Belfast Agreement has led to a dangerous demoralisation of many unionists, myself included. The disgust I feel at the prospect of an amnesty for the on-the-runs is deep.

At the same time, enevitable does not mean excuseable. I do not excuse the rioting in any way and totally condemn it and hope (in vain, I know) that every last rioter has the full force of our totally inadequate law and Criminal Justice System turned on them.

As I said, I support the right to march. I do not know the specific circumstance of this case, but I could see, in theory, myself being part of a protest against a ban. I can not see myself being a rioter but if I did I should expect to be dealt with. Even if just not actually rioting, I do not think that the police should have to put their safety above mine.

Comrade

"Meanwhile, there are plenty of alternatives for people to vote for. There's Alliance, the NI Labour Party, socialists, conservatives, even the natural law party. A vote for any one of those is a vote against paramilitarism and tribalism."

I couldn't vote for the Allince party or any party which supported the Belfast Agreement.

Paul

"As a Unionist(and Democrat), I don't really care what methods the authorities use to clear these morons off the street.
But this is yet another test that I'm afraid the PSNI are going to fail."

I would agree with this with the only possible calrification that (and again this is without really knowing the full facts), there may be a significant number of people who have not rioted and who came to protest peacefully. I also feel sorry for the police. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. so knowing that they will be criticised anyway, they should just do the right thing, taking sufficient regard for their own safety, regardless of how it will be interpreted.

The glow from the Northern Ireland win has been wiped out by this and I'm really angry. I wish that I did not share nationality with terrorists, their supporters and appeasers, the rioters or Archie. However it doesn't work like that.

Where on earth do we go from here?

Alan2, loyalists and unionists have been rioting and using force in the way that they did last night for decades. Why are you trying to present this situation as being something to do with the appeasement of nationalists ? Historically, unionism and loyalism have always used force or the threat of force to get their way - how else do you think partition happened ? It's been this way all the way through the years. Burntollet, UWC, Anglo Irish Agreement, Drumcree - loyalists have always, always used the threat of violence, or indeed the use of actual violence, to make their case.

There is a serious problem here that needs to be addressed. But as far as I am concerned, people using revisionism in the way that you are to justify violence - let's face it, that is what you are doing - are part of the problem.

"I couldn't vote for the Allince party or any party which supported the Belfast Agreement."

Which is worse ? On one hand you've got the Agreement. On the other hand, you've got the parties who oppose the Agreement but appear to be stoking the violence and trouble which occurred last night. You're saying that this is a hard choice ?

Don't give me this old codswallop about the violence being the result of nationalist appeasement. Are you trying to tell me that loyalists never rioted or used violence before the Agreement was signed ? The modern-day cycle of appeasement of violence from unionists started in 1921.

The riot has been used by "both sides" in NI as a political tool on many occasions in recent years, presumably in the belief that it will gain some kind of political outcome. Regarding parades, presumably the belief is that the violence will intimidate decision-makers into making a decision in favour of the "side" doing the rioting at that particular time.

In my memory, throughout the Troubles, the riot was usually a nationalist tool. Since Drumcree, however, it seems to have become used as much by "loyalists" as by nationalists.

The tolerance of rioting by politicians (both local and government) and the security forces is a scandal.

The excuses made by politicians are nothing short of a disgrace.

"In my memory, throughout the Troubles, the riot was usually a nationalist tool."

Burntollet ?

I agree with the rest of your post though. The government and the authorities now need to start publicly naming the politicians for stoking the violence.

"There is a serious problem here that needs to be addressed. But as far as I am concerned, people using revisionism in the way that you are to justify violence - let's face it, that is what you are doing - are part of the problem."

Yeah and I am saying violence is NOT justifiable but that is the MESSAGE being sent out by Republicans, the British and Irish governments and indeed the Parades Commission. I condemn these riots outrightly. It is the hypocritical governments to condemn these riots when THEY are the ones sending out the message that violence pays, if you threaten to cause a riot in opposition to a parade you will get it banned. If you riot you are rewarded. If the paraders are organised and led by moderates who talk to residents, who go to the trouble of getting good marshalls and stewards and creating a family atmosphere with various cultural aspects, lambegs, ulster-scots, scottish & irish dancing etc...and it is all ignored.
As far as I can see people are saying this violence was orchestrated largely by the UVF hijacking the protests. Why are the UVF who have been on ceasefire from the beginning now going Ape? These are the guys who heckled Paisley during the GFA referendum!

"Then attack our soldiers, while our soldiers die in Iraq

We don't recognise you as British, so find a home somewhere else. "

You`d better send the Royal Irish back from Iraq then.

Comrade Stalin

"In my memory, throughout the Troubles, the riot was usually a nationalist tool."

Burntollet ?

Well, I'm bound to say that I don't remember Burntollet as I was not born then. But, regardless, I stand by the point that rioting, throughout the Troubles, was USUALLY a nationalist tool.

Comrade

"Which is worse ? On one hand you've got the Agreement. On the other hand, you've got the parties who oppose the Agreement but appear to be stoking the violence and trouble which occurred last night. You're saying that this is a hard choice ?"

It's no choice at all. I am not going to vote for anone who finds it in anyway acceptable nd actively endorsed and campaigned for an agreement that included release of terroists.

"Don't give me this old codswallop about the violence being the result of nationalist appeasement. Are you trying to tell me that loyalists never rioted or used violence before the Agreement was signed ?"

I am not sure the degree to which you consider use of the term "codswallop" adds to the debate!

Violence is an inevitable result of appeasement of republican terrorism. (I am disturbed by another example of terrorism being sanitised by the term "republican terroism" being so casually replaced by "nationalism"). Just on a matter of logic, the statement "A implies B" is not logically equivalent to "not A implies not B".

"The modern-day cycle of appeasement of violence from unionists started in 1921."

Not sure what this means. However even if I did, I do not bear any responsibilty for anything that "unionism" has done in 1921. Indeed I am only prepared to take responsibility for what I do and I do not ecpect any other unionist to have to take responsibility for my sins of ommission or commission

"Yeah and I am saying violence is NOT justifiable but that is the MESSAGE being sent out by Republicans,"

You're saying that violence as a concept is a republican innovation - which is totally wrong, it has historically been used in equal measure by both republicans and loyalists for decades. This is an attempt on your part to divert the blame and engage in revisionism. Why are you doing this ?

You can't on one hand try to shift the blame for riots, and on the other hand condemn them. The root cause of this rioting is paramilitary orchestration which is being apologized for by the Orange Order and Unionism.

"If the paraders are organised and led by moderates who talk to residents, who go to the trouble of getting good marshalls and stewards and creating a family atmosphere with various cultural aspects, lambegs, ulster-scots, scottish & irish dancing etc...and it is all ignored."

The same arguments justify the existence of the IRA. If you want to make apologies for the idea that violence is a natural conclusion of refusing to give people want they want, go right ahead. I still say that you are part of the problem.

"As far as I can see people are saying this violence was orchestrated largely by the UVF hijacking the protests."

This is rubbish too. The Orange Order and the two main unionist parties give the green light for rioting. As is characteristic within unionism, the paramilitaries did the actual organization - but the politicians were the ones who made it clear that it was justified.

"Violence is an inevitable result of appeasement of republican terrorism."

This opinion justifies the existence of loyalist paramilitarism, provided that it's actions can be couched in terms of a response to republicanism. If you're willing to justify the existence of loyalist paramilitarism in terms of a response to loyalist paramilitarism, then you are part of the problem as well.

Violence is inevitable because politicians, leaders, and people on the ground like you make excuses for it.

The blame for rioting rests primarily with the rioters.

Saying that the rioting has been made inevitable does not reduce that blame one whit.

In saying that the appeasement has made violence inevitable I am not saying that it made good people bad. Just that it harnessed the badness that was already there. I know that there are theories about mass hysteria etc. and how otherwise principled people can become monsters as part of a crowd. I remain to be convinced. Those who rioted did so because rioting was not sufficiently alien to their nature.

Comrade

My last post was written before sight of your last so there is going to be a bit of repetition.

""Violence is an inevitable result of appeasement of republican terrorism."

This opinion justifies the existence of loyalist paramilitarism, provided that it's actions can be couched in terms of a response to republicanism."

I totally disagree. Saying that something is inevitable does not justify it. I may consider it inevitable that if you accidently nudge a thug in a pub and spill his pint, that he will deck you. that does not justify the decking.

I do not accpt the legitimacy of the "loyalist" terrorists (again I reject the use of the euphemistic "paramilitarism".

"If you're willing to justify the existence of loyalist paramilitarism in terms of a response to loyalist paramilitarism, then you are part of the problem as well."

Taking that you meant the second "loyalist" to be "republican". I do not justify their existence. I feel the frustration that they seek to justify their actions and there existence by, but that is a different thing.

"Violence is inevitable because politicians, leaders, and people on the ground like you make excuses for it."

I have repeatedly said that the violence is inexcuseable.

If I thought that it was excuseable I would excuse it. I would not want the full force of the inadequate law response to come down upon it.

"You can't on one hand try to shift the blame for riots, and on the other hand condemn them. The root cause of this rioting is paramilitary orchestration which is being apologized for by the Orange Order and Unionism."

The perpetrators and those ultimately responsible were the rioters themselves including the paramilitaries the root cause was the curbing of the right to freedom of assembly by the governments a right which is freely available in England and the Republic.

BTW

when discussing the issue of condemning "loyalist" terrorism/violence with fellow unionists, one of the difficulties we recognised was that we cannot say, terrorism/violence does not pay, all that we are left with is saying that it is wrong nevertheless and innocent people suffer as a result of it. This is a weak arguement for those whose moral base does not already lead them to reject the thuggery.

It is unfortunately the only arguement that we have and I will continue to use it. I will not pretend that the job is not made more difficult by past appeasement

No, the "root cause" was the decision by those who organised the riots, to organise them.

I'm with Willowfield on this one. As soon as you start attributing a "root cause" to violence outside of the violent motivations of the rioters, then you are justifying violence in just the same way as Sinn Fein do.

I'm not in favour of restrictions on any freedom of assembly; equally I'm not in favour of hate organizations parading that hate for all to see. There has to be a compromise where sensible people talk and agree. Since the Orange Order refuses to talk to either the residents or the Parades Commission, the default position is to rule against them, and that situation isn't going to change until the Orange Order start taking responsibility for these problems and agree to engage in dialogue.

Both the Orange Order and the residents along the routes of these restricted marches, also have to recognize that they are not going to get their own way *all* the time. If people keep talking about how violence is "inevitable" when people do not get their own way all the time, then the only thing that is truly is inevitable in this place is the inexorable slide into civil war.

"No, the "root cause" was the decision by those who organised the riots, to organise them."

No the responsibility lies with the rioters. The root cause is why they were rioting.

Comrade

"If people keep talking about how violence is "inevitable" when people do not get their own way all the time, then the only thing that is truly is inevitable in this place is the inexorable slide into civil war."

Does this mean that you are excusing the civil war? Applying the logic of what you are saying to me would draw me to this conculsion. However as I do not accept your logic, I will not take you to task for excusing the civil war if we do indeed slide into it.

If I consider that appeasement of terrorism (inherently evil and a different thing than people not getting their own way all the time which isn't [my example of the pub thug was to illusrate a slightly different point]) make violence inevitable should I not say so?

"If people keep talking about how violence is "inevitable" when people do not get their own way all the time, then the only thing that is truly is inevitable in this place is the inexorable slide into civil war."

I did not say it is inevitable. I said the government has set an example in that is rewards violence. Would you give a dog a snack if was to bite someone? Would you reward a child who behaves badly?

The government needs to lok at the Parades Commission and see if it is achieving the aims it was created for (clearly it is not). Then they need to really sit down with politicians from all sides and settled the parades issue in a province wide manner. Parading is a major part of many peoples culture whilst also being contoversial in a handful of areas. It really should have been sorted out during the GFA discussions.

The parading issue is the key and if it can be sorted out amicably the rest will follow.

A good starting point is this facet of "Nationalist areas", "Loyalist areas", "Catholic areas", "Protestant areas" and "mixed areas". What are they, how are they defined and does that mean someone from a different tradition in those areas has less freedoms and rights than others in those areas, do the rights of residents come before the rights to freedom of assembly etc, etc.

That all needs to be discussed and agreed across the divide.

We are going to slide into civil war because we've got republicans on one hand, and loyalists on the other, both saying that violence is inevitable when they do not get their way. Since loyalists cannot get their way without republicans being refused theirs, and vice versa, you get two groups of people both backing themselves up with violence, and when that explodes you've got a civil war.

The trouble is that describing a violent outcome to any set of circumstances without considering the background as being "inevitable" serves to justify it. It transfers responsibility for the riot away from the rioters.

Alan2,

- if the government uniformly rewarded violence, then there would be a united Ireland. So I do not accept this thesis for a start. On the other hand, the government has made certain reforms and changes to attempt to satisfy the demands of a large proportion of the electorate here. Coincidentally, paramilitary organizations have claimed to be fighting for those same objectives, but is it inherently true to say that because an armed group claimed those for it's own purposes that violence was appeased ? Is that where the problem really lies ?

- The Parades Commission exists for one reason, which is to take the heat off the Northern Ireland Secretary and the PSNI Chief Constable for parade routing decisions, and it was created because Mo Mowlam appeased the loyalist threats during Drumcree 1997 and allowed them to have their way. Because the Orange Order refuse to meet it or recognize it, neither it nor any other quick solution to this particular problem can work. The problems can only be solved by dialogue, and in contrast with the honourable and constructive example set by the Apprentice Boys of Derry, the Orange Order refuse to step up to the mark in this respect. I am not in favour of granting anything to the Orange Order or any other organization while they continue to abrogate their responsibilities.

- I am not in favour of a regional tribal carveup and all things assumed equal, people should be able to march whereever they like and say whatever they want, no restrictions. However nobody in this country supports that. As we saw in Ballymena, where dissident republicans quite deliberately staged a contentious march to raise tensions, unionists do not tolerate marches by people they don't like through "their" neighbourhoods (and the Parades Commission put a stop to that too). Unionists do not believe in a universal right to march, so there is no point in pretending that they do.

- given that everyone respects that no universal right to march under all circumstances exists, it is necessary that dialogue takes place so that people can hammer out a deal. A solution requires that unionists and marching organizations to take part in that dialogue - which they presently refuse to do. There are no rights without responsibilities, and marching organizations which refuse to engage in dialogue can expect, under the circumstances this country is in, to find their rights curtailed until they start behaving like adults.

Comrade
"The trouble is that describing a violent outcome to any set of circumstances without considering the background as being "inevitable" serves to justify it. It transfers responsibility for the riot away from the rioters. "

herein lies the root of our disagreement and it may be down to a difference in interpretation of our terms.

saying something is enevitable does not justify it. Although I accept that it can be interpreted in that way and thus can result in some feeling that they are so justified.

The primary responsibility for the rioting lies squarely with the rioters and the inherently wrong actions of other people which have helped to create the scenario does not transfer any of that responsibility.

If my saying that appeasement of terrorism makes violence enevitable, justifies that violence, then wouldn't your saying that such statements make civil war inevitable a justification of waging such a war?

I'm getting confused by the bumping posts. But is it enevitable when people are gripied by an issue [The use of the word inevitable was not intentional - in this case I think that bumping is also excusable ;)]

Comrade

I know that your last point was not addressed to me. However this has never stopped me before

"if the government uniformly rewarded violence, then there would be a united Ireland."

the appeasement is uniorm it is just not absolute - yet.

terrorism has been appeased by, amongst other things a)recognition of "all Ireland dimension", not inherently evil in itself, but would only with us as a reward for murder, b) enforced powersharing again not inherently evil but again only with us a reward for murder c) release of terrorists - inherently evil and a reward for the murders that put them inside in the first place.

" am not in favour of a regional tribal carveup and all things assumed equal, people should be able to march whereever they like and say whatever they want, no restrictions. However nobody in this country supports that."

To a very large degree thi is my view. I do have exceptions about parades to glorify the holocaust, La Mon, Greysteel or "queerbashing", but in general see clear distintions between what people should not do and what they should not be allowed to do. I beleive that OO parades shouls be allowed. I also want to see dialogue so that any genuine concerns (and there are some)can be resloved. At the same time I support anyone who does not want to have dialogue with SF members. Reports that I head about the involment and toleration of "loyalist" terrorists mystified me (and before I am accused of being mealy mouthed I condemn it)

"There are no rights without responsibilities"
The main responsibilities re rights is to uphold them and to apply them consistantly

Bertie says: Violence is an inevitable result of appeasement of republican terrorism."

Galloway says: terrorism is an inevitable result of US/UK policies in the Middle East.

In neither case is the person justifying the violence, merely explaining it. Wheter they are right or not is another question.

Did I see OO members taking pictures of the police with their mobile phone cameras? I guess that's respect for law and order for you.

Alan2

Me: "No, the "root cause" was the decision by those who organised the riots, to organise them."

You: No the responsibility lies with the rioters. The root cause is why they were rioting.

And how does that remove responsibility from those who organised the riots?

We are going to slide into civil war because we've got republicans on one hand, and loyalists on the other, both saying that violence is inevitable when they do not get their way. Since loyalists cannot get their way without republicans being refused theirs, and vice versa, you get two groups of people both backing themselves up with violence, and when that explodes you've got a civil war.

In essence, I agree with CS's point here, although I would stop short of saying civil war is coming.

The trouble is that describing a violent outcome to any set of circumstances without considering the background as being "inevitable" serves to justify it. It transfers responsibility for the riot away from the rioters.

Agree with this, too, although it is a tradition in NI. The Provo campaign was "inevitable" because of discrimination; the loyalist campaign was "inevitable" because of the Provo campaign; the Ardoyne riot was "inevitable" because the Parades Commission allowed the parade; the loyalist riot was "inevitable" because the Parades Commission banned the parade.

I also agree with Alan's philosophical point that saying something is inevitable is not the same as justifying it. My point, however, is that by commenting on the inevitably of something, one is immediately watering down one's condemnation, which should be total and unequivocal.

Tim, you may recall during one of the Drumcree disturbances when Ian Paisley said to PSNI officers "don't come running to me when they put you out of your homes".

When the police take a stand against loyalist lawbreaking, Paisley won't lift a finger to stop the backlash. Don't expect any condemnation of photograph taking or other attempts to intimidate the police coming from unionism.

Television footage from yesterdays parade showed orangemen trying to rip down the gates at workman avenue

How does that fit in with the 'religious organisation' tag ?

Willowfield

"My point, however, is that by commenting on the inevitably of something, one is immediately watering down one's condemnation, which should be total and unequivocal."

This is pandering to wooly thinking (I'm not accusing you of having wooly thinking here, just pandering to it in others). The condemnation needs to be total and unequivocal, commenting on the inevitiability without the condemnation is probably where the problem lies. Also if you are a public figure commenting in the media, you run the risk of the media failing to report the condemnation if you have also given them another soundbite. In terms of lessening the inevitability of such violence, condemning the violence without reference to the frustration behind it (which does not excuse it), does not decrease that frustration and could indeed increase it. Thus you have re-enforced the motivation of those whose thuggery tolerance has won over whatever decency restraint that they may have had and have put some wobblers futher over to the danger line.

The rioting and the part played by the DUP leader was vintage Paisley, stoke up a row then clear off!

The rioting and the part played by the DUP leader was vintage Paisley, stoke up a row then clear off!

"Television footage from yesterdays parade showed orangemen trying to rip down the gates at workman avenue

How does that fit in with the 'religious organisation' tag ?"

It doesn`t. It was disgraceful and has certainly damaged the valiant efforts of moderate Orangemen who made this summer the most peaceful in recent memory, striving for family atmosphere and cultural events over the summer

Comrade - I agree with many of your points. Tha Apprentice Boys are a good example to follow but apparently the Orange Order did have discussions, residents had 5 points of which the Order addressed 4 and the 5th was the route. It was the police not the residents who decided to recommend rerouting.

I also agree that anyone should be free to assemble / march. I supported the right of the Republican parade in Ballymena to go ahead despite the hypocrisy coming from some Unionists who were opposed to that parade yet were trying to get the parade through Dunloy at the same time.

I think that with the finer points we have been debating we are in danger of obscuring the concensus that there appears to be on this issue - nother case of heated agreement.

It seems to me and I'm sure that I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, that whatever we think per se about the OO, unionist politicians, unionists in general, the Belfast Agreement or anything else, there seems to be a consensus that :-

the rioting was not in any way justified and that we would like to see the rioters subject the the full force of whatever the Criminal Justice System is capable of throwing at them

Does the Orange Order help or hinder the unionist cause, in other words can unionism afford it at this time?

My contention is that the economic and political cases for unionism are disappearing and we are left with the real core of what Norn Ireland was all about - Orange sectarianism.

And I contend that the British government has an agenda which it is following whilst totally ignoring Unionist opinion and we see the results on our streets. The case for genuine Unionism stands today just as it did in the beginning economically and politically or else the EU would not exist and that is without even considering culture and identity.

Lib2016 - what was "Southern Ireland" all about?

Alan2
I agree with you. The British government has an agenda which it is following whilst totally ignoring Unionist opinion.

So what can you do about it?

Unionist opinion amounts to very little beyond "nationalists are getting too much". In the zero-sum quagmire we have here, what else are the British supposed to do ?

If unionists would simply engage constructively then perhaps they might find more sympathetic ears in the British and Irish governments.

De Valera was indeed forced to play the green card when he was trying to build a republic from the mess the British left behind them in the South. 'One large farm with a brewery attached' was one description! but there was always a lot more to Irish republicanism than that. The things which the South, like all democracies are still trying to define like freedom, equality and fairness.

On the other hand Norn Ireland is based on defending privilege and was set up expressly to play the Orange card. I'm afraid that's been trumped.

Comrade Stalin
We tried that. We voted for the Belfast Agreement. Seven years latter we look like fools. The criminals(both sides)are out of jail, they control large sections of our community and HMG is happy to deal with them.

We live in a gangster state funded by Westminster, we have no influence and no bargining power. Head down, make the best of it whilst it lasts.

The place was set up expressly to disenfranchise a large section of the population and you still refuse to deal with their representatives, or even shake their hands.

It was your choice to end up without bargaining power or respect and only your community can win either back. Or you can continue to bury your heads in the sand and let the Paisleyites take over.

"We tried that. "

No you didn't. Unionism to date has refused to engage constructively, doctoring up hypocritical arguments about decommissioning and paramilitarism. The gangster state was created by unionism, the gangster organizations are tolerated and encouraged by unionist leaders as we have seen over the past few days. You can't blame this nonsense on either republicans or the GFA. It's been going on for decades and it's time you confronted it head-on.

Or to put it the way one British poster on another site did - "Thirty years ago the troops went in to stop the Protestants attacking the Catholics, and they're still haven't learned!"

In most countries in the world there is a written constitution. This is a set of fundamental laws that are difficult to change and that put certain, usually procedural, aspects of governence out of the reach of party politics.

The UK does not possess a written constitution. It has, instead, made do with an ever diminishing set of customs and conventions.

One consequence of this is that there is no limit on the British government's discretion about what it can do in Northern Ireland. Because NI is so small it is very rare that a UK government needs any votes from here, so the UK government is entirely free to ignore the wishes of any and all of our elected politicians.

In conjunction with this absolute constitutional freedom the UK government also has a complete lack of a "bottom line" or even much of a strategy about what happens here.

When presented with decisions about NI issues the UK government has a very strong tendency to act in a short term pragmatic way by appeasing the side that creates the biggest threat of violence. This has not been a one way process of appeasing republicans as it has acted in favour of loyalists in this way too.

Unfortunately this has been a big cause of the eclipse of the UUP and the decline of the SDLP. Why vote for moderates when the government seems only to listen to parties with the whiff of cordite (their own or anothers) about them?

I do not agree with Bertie that the government's actions have made violence "inevitable" (as violence is always a cynical free choice) but I would suggest that the weakness and tendency towards appeasement has created a major incentive on people to use or rationalise the use of violence.

This is something that needs a major strategic re-think.

On the other hand one might comment that the Brits propped up the UUP long after it became clear that they couldn't or woildn't deliver.

Sooner or later the undemocratic forces have to be faced down as they were at Drumcree or unionists begin to believe their own fantasies.

Last night unionism showed the teagues who's in charge by attacking their own communities. Are they planning a repeat tonight?

What the f*** is hypothetical about the issues relating to decommissioning and "paramilitarism" (a euphemism for base thuggery. We're all the murders hypothetical? Great I thought that they were really dead. One day people will talk about the concerns of the Ahoghill RCs about "loyalist" intimidation as hypothetical.

On the separate issue re saying that appeasement has made this inevitable means we are excusing it, when unionists said that appeasement in the form of the AIA made incidents like Enniskillen more likely, we weren't thought of as justifying it.

bertie, I said hypocritical, not hypothetical.

Unionists were completely mistaken with the view that the IRA gave a rat's ass about the AIA - it didn't.

Sorry Comrade

I'm actually embarrassed now! (It's the first time I actually regret a post)
I'm so worked up that I misread and I'm also not putting my usual caution into making absolutely sure before sounding off at someone. [Being worked up is the reason but it doesn't excuse it
also it is entirely my own fault and no other unionist needs to shoulder any guilt by association ;)]

The point still holds to a certain extent. Although, if I read you right, you are not saying that we don't care about IRA terrorism but we don't care about any other terrorism. Again there is nothing more that I can say that I haven't said ad nauseum on the matter of "loyalist" terrorism.

I think that the IRA were boosted by the AIA, not actually by anything specific in in, but by the fact that it happened as a response to terrorism. In that it was a boost for terrorism (even "loyalist" terrorism) world wide. In the same sence I was more opposed to it on those grounds than the specifics. (not saying that I didn't have a problem with the specifics.)

I think we're all a bit worked up at the minute.

Read the "loveulster.com" forums for insights into unionism. It's not just the content of the discussions, but the forum topics. For example, there's a topic "How has Sinn Fein/IRA affected your life?" instead of "how has paramilitarism affected your life" - as if the only paramilitarism that is to be condemned is that emanating from nationalism.

CS,

I'd suggest that getting "insights" into unionism from LoveUlster (which even the DUP doesn't support) is a bit like trying to get "insights" of nationalism from some of the crackpot "true Irish republican" outfits on the net. It is more a study of how many mental gymnastics some people can perform to justify the unjustifiable.

Comrade
cheers I interpret that as accepting my apology.

The Love Ulster site has come significantly from victims experience and victims of IRA violence specifically. Therefore I think that the focus here is excusable (INLA victims inc, Darkly are also technically excluded). It is intresting that there is very little traffic on that section. An attempt to find out something about the suicide problemn has been ignored, most posters of all political persuasions, prefering to get stuck in on the other topics.

Although, considering its genesis, I think the focus on republican terrorism understandable and legitimate I would be pushing for the condemnations of "loyalist" terrorism and an expression of solidarity with