Such is the UUP/SDLP/SF control freakery of Slugger, I can't start a new thread on here. Just have to ask though, where is the moral indignation on the two nights running NATIONALIST rioting in Antrim? Ummmm, nowhere, cos they have the right....like.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4257286.stm

the Antrim riots are surely just minor weekend fun days ?

is it true that if you joim SF they take your wages & then allocate what they consider to be your "living allowance" in true "cult" fashion ?

The Sindo also has a special poll on a United Ireland (office ring round). And an assessment of seats giving a FG victory in the election (based on an office ask around). That and them not knowing there is just a Nobel Peace prize and not lots of Nobel Peace Prizes for things like Chemistry etc, makes the Sindo a bit more of a joke this week. Cusack’s piece was littered with factual errors too, was a parade stopped on the Shankill?

I'm as sceptical over the level of accuracy in this piece as the other four mentioned above.

Who knows Deezer...

Just have ask though, the ordinary decent Catholics of the Rathenraw Estate, don't they deserve the same 'online solidarity'? Surely they too are being ruled by paramilitary petrol bombing scum? Surely all UVF....doh sorry, IRA men should stop ruining their communities?

Let me get this right. SF/IRA approached someone who wasn't a member of the party, and who had no obvious interest in politics and he shot them down and this is somehow being spun as a good thing? Is the level of talent so low in Cork SF/IRA circles that they have to resort to this? I would have hoped that the days of a familar sporting name on a ballot paper being enough to get them elected had gone out of fashion years ago. If SF/IRA are so desperate in Cork perhaps rthey should have a chat with a certain Corkman now resident in Manchester. He fits all the criteria, he's a big name in sport, has no obvous interest in politics and being a complete thug, would fit in well with some other SF/IRA candidates.

Still no post on Antrim's nationalist rioting eh? Slugger-babes, c'mon at least TRY to be seen to be impartial. You're just showing yourselves up now....

Keith M

"If SF/IRA are so desperate in Cork perhaps rthey should have a chat with a certain Corkman now resident in Manchester. He fits all the criteria, he's a big name in sport, has no obvous interest in politics and being a complete thug, would fit in well with some other SF/IRA candidates."

Hey, leave Denis Irwin out of this.

So, Keith, do you think that there may just be more to Roys broken leg than might first meet the eye?

According to today's Irish examiner Sinn Féin denied the story. sinn Féin do not run around like the three conservative parties and pee dee fascists looking for Tom Parlons' etc. Au contraire, all Sinn Féin's candidates are homegrown. Jonathon O'Brien will do a fantastic job for SF in Cork NC and may well take Kathleen Lynch's (DL/Labour) seat. Meanwhile, expect SF to also gain two seats in Donegal, one in Mayo, one in Sligo, Meath, Wexford, Waterford and at lest three extra seats in Dublin. This will put SF on at least TDs next time around. And, as the ould song says, we've only just begun.

There isn't a chance that the story is true. All you have to do is read it to know that it's made up. What a joke of a newspaper.

Paul,

Thanks for this. I'll have a look.

Contrary to the belief of some of our readers, Slugger is not a comprehensive news service. Nuzhound does that better than anyone.

You are completely free to draw your own conclusions about what Slugger reports and doesn't. But as fair as the site is concerned we are somewhat in thrall to the way the newsflows are going.

It's becoming a bit of guessing game just who we're going to get heat from next. Last week we got hit for even mentioning the intimidation campaign against the McCartney family that seemed to have been re-ignited under the cover of loyalist rioting. Now this.

To re-iterate. Balance is something that perhaps emerges over a longish period of time. IN the meantime, each story that emerges has to be given its own weight. I tend not to 'work' over weekends, so I didn't see it.

On the way the site works. This is a blog, not a bulletin board.

It has run for over three years and is paid for by me, and the kind donations of a very small number of our readers. That's just the way it works.

People come here mostly to talk, but also because they clearly trust the editorial choice of the bloggers here. If our output doesn't suit you, I would encourage you to set up your own!

Brian, you are new here. I've snipped the man playing comments from your post so that what is left is to the point and entirely political. For the personal material you originally posted, you have a Yellow Card. Any repetition will result in a straight Red - two weeks off the site or permenent exclusion (at the discretion of the ref). Now play on!

This story just reeks of desperation-not SF desperation, sindo-desperation.Anybody have any faith whatsoever that there is any truth in this story at all?

Deezer

"is it true that if you joim SF they take your wages & then allocate what they consider to be your "living allowance" in true "cult" fashion ?"

It isn't if you join it is if you are a elected representative. In the Assembly, Sinn Fein took a sizeable amount of their representatives salaries if I remember correctly they get the equivalent of the average wage (so they were taking about 40-45%). It enables them to employ a significantly larger staff than other parties. I have heard it claimed they provide representatives with a clothing allowance but can't confirm the veracity of that.

The PUP do the same but it was more to finance the party than employ staff.

In the Assembly the DUP contributed any additional salaries (ministerial, chairmanships, vice-chairmanships etc) to the Agreement Fighting Fund aka the DUP election fund (although they did use it to partially fund their legal challenge to the non-resignation resignation of Seamus Mallon). All DUP MLA's donate 10% gross to the party from their salaries (a political tithe).

The UUP MLAs make some sort of contribution but ministers etc were all allowed to keep their salaries.

Don't know about the SDLP and Alliance.

Just a comment on the riots in Antrim. Rathenraw is under the control of the real/continuity/not provo ira and this was about them putting down a marker that if the prods in the Steeple (who rioted on Monday night) got anything out of it they want share. Interestingly the prods rioted in the estate making a hell of a mess the nationalists rioted outside their estate with no mess in Rathenraw.

Paul, I read the piece on the Rathenraw riots, and I feel that all and any street violence should not be tolerated, and all participants subject to the full lash of the law. However, in my mind, the significant difference is the impact and outcome of the street violence, in terms of how it rates in the news. Flights werent cancelled, pregnant women werent punched in the face, and the economic survival of Belfast was not placed at risk because of the Antrim trouble. We all got our collective underwear slightly twisted over the Belfast riots as a result of the direct impact and infringment it imposed on our lives.

fair_deal

Thanks for that informatio. I didn't know much of it. How does the DUP deal with multiple salaries for double-jobbing by its ten MP/MLAs? Is there any particular rule where there is more than one double-jobber within one family? Does the DUP set a limit on what one person or family might be allowed to earn for providing representation in two different fora for the same underprivileged working-class district or declining agricultural area?

MCT

I am not aware of how any party deals with the issue of double or multiple mandates. Nor is that situation unique to the DUP, 2 of the 3 SDLP and all of the SF MP's are in the same position. Only Slyvia Hermon and Eddie McGrady don't have a dual mandate.

If I remember correctly if you have a double mandate your salary is reduced automatically to a third of the ordinary salary.

I don't know about taking all of a representative's salary, and then allocating them a 'living allowance'. It alls seems a bit soviet for my liking.

However, politicians of any strain should clearly be expected to funnel some of their income to party funds. After all, most politicans get elected on account of their party affiliation- it's the equivilent of commercial franchise in business. After all, would someone expect to sell McDonald's food and own a McDonald's restaurant without paying Ronald McDonald money for the use of the brand?

The politician may do the work, but it is the party brand which gets them elected, to a large extent, in the first place.

Hopefully the dual mandate will be abolished through the Review of Public Admin. It's undemocratic.

Elected representatives also get an allowance for personal staff. I don't want to be libellous so I won't name anyone, but a particular couple of members is said to have provided jobs for their entire family as a result of their dual mandates.

If SF has a clothing allowance, some of them must be declining the offer.

fair_deal

I only asked you because I assumed you were in the know on the DUP. I can only assume the shinners don't get an extra industrial wage for each additional job, otherwise it would kind of defeat the purpose. I have no objection to double-jobbing per se, although I'm not sure it's smart politics. It's the cashola I object to.

As regards the SDLP, I really don't want to know. They'll probably come off with some guff about "giving alms in secret".

"If I remember correctly if you have a double mandate your salary is reduced automatically to a third of the ordinary salary."

I didn't know that. Is that the law?

Of course, when I said the DUP had ten double-jobbing MPs, that was not the schoolboy error it appeared to be. I was including Alasdair McDonnell.

Keith M seems to be preoccupied with Sinn Féin or SF/IRA. Surely Sinn Féin have as much right to approach someone about standing for the party as Fianna Fáil had approaching another Cork hurling great, Jack Lynch.

Isn't it better than merely getting someone who happens to be the offspring of a former leader to stand? (The royal method).

Brian can speculate all he wants about a S.F. breakthrough at the next election but it's not going to happen. To achieve a real breakthrough, S.F. have to attract middle-class voters. Those voters will run a mile when they read S.F's election manifesto, unless it decides not to write one and campaign on the "architects of the peace process" waffle again. The fact is, most voters in the south couldn't give a toss about the north-and I don't say that with any pleasure-and as S.F. is inextricably linked with the north, its appeal south of the border is limited. S.F. neither understands nor cares about voter needs south of the border.

fair-deal, "I have heard it claimed they provide representatives with a clothing allowance but can't confirm the veracity of that." I may have misheard, but I could have sworn that the Shinner war cry was "Chuckie Armani".

oilbhear it's almost 50 years since FF approached Lynch, thus my point about this kind of thing going back to the dark ages.

"Isn't it better than merely getting someone who happens to be the offspring of a former leader to stand? (The royal method)." What's Martin Ferris's opinion?

Mick, I like the way you 'cautioned' Brian with a yellow card.

MCT

"I only asked you because I assumed you were in the know on the DUP"

No problem in asking. It is not a safe assumption to make about my knoweledge of the DUP. I am not a member and I have been haranguing those I know in the DUP over the past couple of months so some are avoiding me.

"Is that the law?"

As far as I am aware yes.

"I have no objection to double-jobbing per se, although I'm not sure it's smart politics"

I personally don't like it as it blocks party building and development of new talent. I am a strong advocate of developing a party brand not a collection of personal brands and a party brand facilitates better vote management and thus greater representation under PR ie east Belfast the DUP should have 3 seats but messed up their vote management. However, the total vote tallies do provide some justification for it.

Mrbenn

My guess is Sinn Fein representation will grow in the next Dail. My quick look at the electoral math would give them a potential 10. However, two things are working against them:
1. Their 1st preference vote in a number of the constituencies they have seats in was well below quota so a significant growth in physical vote will not deliver extra seats, simply make secure existing ones.
2. The various changes to the number of seats per constituency of which North Cork is an example the number of seats and the adoption of the 3 seat constituencies.

SF's growth is good but it is an often overlooked fact that a much more sizeable chunk of the disaffected electorate voted for independent candidates than for Sinn Fein in the last Dail elections.

When Sinn Fein adopted their 'Tactical Use of Amred Struggle/Peace Strategy' in the late 80's early 90's with an aim of simultaneous executive power in both jurisdictions 10 seats would have almost delivered an automatic place in government but the political fragementation does not make that such a given now.

All

I have heard a rumour that the PD's are thinking an early election may better suit them and are considering pulling down the government over Bertie's cosiness with Sinn Fein/IRA sooner rather than later. They believe this would play well with its core constituency. Anyone else heard this or was my source treating me like a lamppost?

Richard, being from Boston doesn't excuse abuse. It does however explain why he still think that Meath will be a single constituency in the next election.

Of course, when I said the DUP had ten double-jobbing MPs, that was not the schoolboy error it appeared to be. I was including Alasdair McDonnell.

Oh MCT, you're such a joker.

Take a glance at this recent press release and think again- correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Big Ian would stand from this kind of thing from within his ranks ;):

SDLP McDonnell Press Release

fair deal "Anyone else heard this or was my source treating me like a lamppost?" No truth whatsoever. Firstly SF/IRA are stilmarginal party here and likely to remain so, even with 10-12 seats. Secondly both parties currently in government want the boost that the maturing SSIAs should give them, and it will take at least another year for the measures that Harney has put in in Health to bear fruit. I'm calling April 2007 as the most likely date, but it could be as early as September 2006.

Richard, I'm the patientist man in or out of Ireland, I can assure you. The material warranted a Yellow.

Fair deal

I don't think anyone can see this government lasting the full term. I agree with Keith that both parties would like to see the SSIA's maturing but with big clashes on the horizon between the government parties it may not be practical.

I would imagine there will be a general election at some stage next year.

Keithm

Thanks, my source on this usually gets some stuff about RoI politics from a UU member with private connections to Fianna Gael. This particular UU member believes we should join a United Ireland so we can stop Sinn Fein getting into power so the member is known for his fanciful notions.

I'll tell my friend he has been spun a yarn. Much appreciated.

CG

Thanks too

Keith
SF may be marginal at 10 seats, but the real issue will be the collapse of the PD vote, and the shift in the balance of power. In the end, it will come down to who has to be the coalition partner, and if an FF/SF coalition could be sold. Personally, I think it is only a matter of time before that is the scenario, in the absence of a clear majority.
I also think that there is some under-estimation of the appeal of SF in the hinterland down south. They are making very astute moves in specific areas and their appeal to marginalised communities should not be dismissed. In my own original home county in the midlands, there is a powerful voice being offered to farmers who see their livelihood slip away, and SF are in the wiongs offering solace

SF seem to concentrating on this "disaffected" vote but their position is that of an opposition party, generally- "the government should be doing something about it", the protest vote. The problem for them in the Rep. is that most people are doing OK, that strategy will only take them so far. Incidently, what are SF offering farmers apart from solace? They have jumped on the Make Poverty History bandwagon, obviously going for the youth vote, but I thought the CAP was enemy no. 1 for that campaign, where does that leave Irish farmers? SF can't have it every which way, sooner or later their policies will come under scrutiny.

Sean Og would be a prize catch for any of the political parties.
But why, in god's name, would he want to sully his good family
background and his own outstanding character by backing Sinn
Fein (which is still joined at the hip with the Provisional IRA)?

Richard Dowling

Sean Og's political views are his own business. The only people making an issue of it are the Sunday Independent.

KeithM

Excuse my ignorance but what are SSIA's?

Brian,

SF haven't a prayer of taking a seat in Waterford. The constituency is divided as follows:-

Waterford City - FF stronghold, always guaranteed to return a TD (regardless of candidate's quality). Current Government Minister Martin Cullen to take this.

Tramore - Labour TD Brian O'Shea has held this seat since 1977.

Dungarvan - There's been a Deasy family TD here for 30 years. (FG)

The remaining seat is a FF certainty, based on Cullen's transfers & the high West Waterford turnout for current incumbant Ollie Wilkinson (FF)

Granted, SF are strong in parts of Waterford city - namely Larchville, where SF Executive member David Cullinane hails from - and in Dungarvan's Childers' Estate. They'll definitely increase their vote, but Waterford always has been 2 FF, 1 Labour & 1 FG and that's the way it's staying....despite Gerry jumping on the "Radiotherapy for Waterford" campaign bandwagon last Summer.

In addition, neither Joe Reilly (Meath) or Jonathan O'Brien will take seats - SF simply won't attract the necessary transfers in significant numbers.

Sean Og was approached by SF (my cousin works with him) but he's concentrating solely on winning three-in-a-row with Cork (for the first time since 1978). He recently switched jobs - from AIB to Business Development Manager with Ulster Bank in Patrick Street, Cork. It's a role well-suited to any prospective politican - SF no doubt also took that into account!

Fair_deal

Something really big would have to happen for the PDs to call time on the government. They way they look at it, the coalition with F.F. gives them access to power that they otherwise wouldn't enjoy. Better to be inside the tent and so on!! Mary Harney would prefer to see out her time in the Department of Health. Also, McDowell is a lot closer to Bertie than people think. They forged a good working relationship when McDowell was attorney general in the last government and he's like Bertie's rottweiler when it comes to repremanding S.F.

I agree with you on S.F. representation in the Dail. They will win more seats, but it will not be the breakthrough that many people are predicting. Your view that many disaffected voters choose independents instead hits the nail on the head.

fair_play

SSIAs are Special Saving Investment Accounts. They were FF's brainchild to buy the next election. Savers contribute a max of €254 p.m. for 5 years. The government adds €1 to the fund for every €3 committed by the saver. The combined monies are then invested in either risk-free (deposit a/cs), low-risk (bond-based) or medium/high-risk (equity-based) institutional investment products. They were introduced to take the heat out of an economy reaching boiling point by Charlie McCreevy in 2001. A GUARANTEED middle-class vote winner at the next election.

Just a few quick other points:-

A census is due in the South next year - Bertie may call an election before then, as the constituency boundries are bound to be redrawn when the results are tallied (i.e. in Kildare, Meath, Louth & Cork)

There is also NO CHANCE of FF/SF coalition - FF would be finished if they ever jumped into bed with SF. A FF/Labour pact is much more likely!

Apologies for getting your name wrong fair_deal !

SF have more to lose if they were persusaded to enter government with FF after this election. SF will be better served by staying in opposition and building for 2011/2112 when if current trends prevail they will be in a position to pick their partners. SF will not be clamouring for government straight away, its long road.

J Kelly,

"SF have more to lose if they were persusaded to enter government with FF after this election."

Rubbish!

SF wouldn't be going into government with career terrorists, bombers, murderers, racketeers, extortionists...

FF aren't gradually eroding ROI democracy.....

FF haven't started an Anti-McCarthny witch-hunt in the SS.....

Bertie Ahern was never IRA Chief-of-Staff....

Need I go on?

"..if current trends prevail they will be in a position to pick their partners."

This point needs to be hammered home:-

ANY Southern party that jumps into a government bed with SF will INSTANTLY lose all credibility with their core support. SF will continue to remain a popular, niche party in ROI.....just don't expect to see Gerry succeeding Mary McAleese in 2016.

The riots at Rathenraw come as republican's try to heighen tension by errecting tricolours at stiles way.

I think people are very hasty in dismissing the notion of SF attaining total respectability, both sides of the border, in the short-rather than long term. While many of the electorate in ROI cling to a sanitised version of history, there is the potential to exploit the origin and genesis of the stte itself. Ireland is a country born out of a violent conflict, and as we all know, respectability came to the leaders in a reasonably short space of time.

Political expediency, is and always was, the most ingenous of bed-fellows. I would not discount an FF/SF coalition, and based on my own knowledge of FF, I would see it fit more comfortably with many of the grass roots than a labour partnership.

I'm confused with this Sean Og thing, what does a 32 County Socialist Republican party want with a Ulster Bank Business Development Manager? Are Ulster Bank aware that they have an employee who might well be working towards proletarian control of the means of production and distribution? Or is all that socialist stuff just a load of ol' bullocks that nobody takes seriously?

the more I think about it, government in the next Dail makes no sense for SF. It's new TDs will be too young to break any delph. They need some time to build up respectabilitiy and public profile. More importantly, there's no way the DUP would deal in that context. The cross-border dynamic would be buggered, as the DUP wouldn't want a shinner on either side of a CBB making very green all-Ireland policy.

fair_deal

"I personally don't like it as it blocks party building and development of new talent. I am a strong advocate of developing a party brand not a collection of personal brands"

I couldn't agree more. But you have to admit that watching Robinson prove himself too obsessed with the "cult of ME" to turn 43% at Westminster into three assembly seats, while watching Iris bring home the bacon in Strangford was one of the more enjoyable elements of schadenfreude in the last election. Not quite Marty Meehan, but close. I mean, even Sammy brought three in on less than two-and-a-half quotas. Iris for leader.

Sorry for pigeon-holing you - it might be because of the similarity of your moniker and Stalford's blog.

pacart,

"Or is all that socialist stuff just a load of ol' bullocks that nobody takes seriously?"

From what I can gather, Gerry used his opposition to socialism to oust the red MacStiofan "sticky" faction of the IRA when it suited him, then he claimed in later years that he was a socialism advocate (SF's "Eire Nua" strategy of 1982/1983).

I'm open to correction on that conclusion! Ed Moloney has a detailed analysis of Brownie's frequent, ideological shifts in "A Secret History of the IRA".

Sean Og is from the Farranree area of Cork's Northside, a constituency that SF targeting in the next GE. He's a hero in that area - SF couldn't care less what he does for a living....he'd romp home if he ran for the DUP there!!

In fact, Henry94, what's getting up your nose is my political
views -- not those of Sean Og O'hAilpin, whose views are
certainly his own business. He seems the epitome of decency.
And, in that context, I question whether Sinn Fein would be a
suitable suitor in any political head-huntering exercise. Maybe
the Sunday Independent was being mischivous. Maybe not.
The fact remains, Sinn Fein and the IRA should not be allowed
to co-exist as recruiting agents for the same Republican
movement --- especially as they share mutually exclusive
objectives --- a United Ireland by mutual consent, and a United
Ireland by force and the threat of force. What's it to be then?

"Sorry for pigeon-holing you - it might be because of the similarity of your moniker and Stalford's blog."

My tag on here predates his blog.

"But you have to admit that watching Robinson prove himself too obsessed with the "cult of ME" to turn 43% at Westminster into three assembly seats,"

Robinson does usually bring in an extra 3-5% on the DUP vote in east Belfast but even with the slightly lower vote 3 should still be possible.

The strange thing about the performance in other constituencies was Peter Robinson pushed the vote management stuff to them but then didn't follow it properly in his own constituency.

Richard

In fact, Henry94, what's getting up your nose is my political
views -- not those of Sean Og O'hAilpin, whose views are
certainly his own business.

I had to go back and check what your views were.

Your political views are also your own business. If comments such as yours got up my nose I would hardly come here to read them would I? The issue here as I see it is the credibility of the Sunday Independent.

The fact remains, Sinn Fein and the IRA should not be allowed to co-exist as recruiting agents for the same Republican
movement

The IRA is illegal. So it is not "allowed" to do anything by law. Do you think Sinn Fein should be banned or are you suggesting something else?

United Ireland by mutual consent, and a United
Ireland by force and the threat of force. What's it to be then?

As you have no basis for suggesting I support either force or the threat of force, you have no business asking me that question.

The credibility of the Sunday Independent is not the issue,
Henry. But the credibility of the so-called Republican
movement certainly is. How can you take Gerry Adams
seriously when he pretends NEVER to have been a member of
the Provisional IRA, never mind a leading light in its Army
Council. Remember the welcome he and Martin McGuinness
gave the Balcolme St gang when they were released? What's
more, you're living in cloud-cuckoo land if you think that Sinn
Fein can act with impunity in this country, pretending not to
know what's its military wing is up to. And it has a military wing.
Or hadn't you noticed?
And it's very active in Dublin. The same as the UDA is very
active in the Norh. Or is the Sunday World libelling and
slandering the poor Loyalist gangs as well? Gimme a break.

By the way, Henry, the IRA is not illegal .... according to its own
Constitution. And Sinn Fein's Gerry Adams, Gerry Kelly, Martin
Ferris, Pat Doherty and Mitchell McLaughlin have all backed
Martin McGuinness's assertion that its campaign of violence
was justified according to that very Constitution. So, are the
rest of us supposed to go along with the charade that voting
for Sinn Fein is divorced from support for the IRA?
And we still haven't got to that awkward little question of
criminality. Did I mention the war?

Let me try another analogy, for slow learners. If some poor
misguided soul was drawn to Waco (Texas) on the strength of
David Koresh's personality (and their own honest search for
justice and spiritual hunger), and then foolishly came to believe
that the bold David was the reincarnation of the living Jesus ---
--- in spite of all objective evidence to the contrary -- would you
say that there was no connection between those who put their
faith in the deranged Koresh, the subsequent violence, the
betrayal of innocence, the abuse of power and the manic
psychosis of some exploitative cult leaders? Or would you
say, sadly 'Jesus, how could people be so blind'?

Remember Bob Jones in Guyana, hundreds of whose followers
swallowed arsenic or cyanide laced Koolaid, in preparation for
the 'after' life? The lesson is simply this: some people will
swallow anything. Sinn Fein (and the IRA) are counting on it.

These are not voices in your head, my friend, but in your ear.
Treat then with the scepticism they deserve.

George Weah (the former European Footballer of the year) is
running for the Presidency of Liberia...

Richard Dowling

The credibility of the Sunday Independent is not the issue, Henry

In relation to the topic here which is a story printed by the Sunday Independent it certainly is the issue.

How can you take Gerry Adams
seriously when he pretends NEVER to have been a member of the Provisional IRA, never mind a leading light in its Army Council.

That is not an issue at all as far as I'm concerned. I don't know who is in the IRA and who isn't and I don't care. The only concern I have about the IRA is that they keep contributing to the peace process. So far I'm very happy with the direction they are heading. I like to see a quicker pace but the direction is more important.

Remember the welcome he and Martin McGuinness
gave the Balcolme St gang when they were released?

I have no problem with that.

And Sinn Fein's Gerry Adams, Gerry Kelly, Martin
Ferris, Pat Doherty and Mitchell McLaughlin have all backed Martin McGuinness's assertion that its campaign of violence was justified according to that very Constitution.

Republicans take a republican view. Hold the front page.

I don't find the David Koresh or Bob Jones analogies particularly useful.

I think using them indicates an unhelpful hysteria in your approach. I think that believing "the world would be settled if only everybody saw it my way" is of limited value in solving political issues.

The republican leadership have managed to bring to an end an armed campaign while at the same time providing a viable political alternative for their supporters.

If you are looking for analogies contrast their leadership with previous leaderships who took the political road but ditched large numbers of republicans. If Gerry Adams and Co. were of that stripe they could be in government now north and south but they would not have solved the problem.

This is a far better and more constructive way. It will lead to a strong all-Ireland popular political republican movement.

And I think that is what really scares some people.

they would not have solved the problem

Henry,

wouldn't you agree that for Republicans, THE problem is the absence of a United Ireland, not an absence of social cohesion in the North?

This is a far better and more constructive way. It will lead to a strong all-Ireland popular political republican movement.

This may be a result as far as you are concerned, but it doesn't help the overall situation one
bit.

It is impossible for any party in the north to put the constitutional issues above the social problems and play their full part in the so called peace process. The peace process is a joke at this stage, corrupted beyond recognition primarly because of the inbred one-eyed approach taken by the gullible and the poorly educated.

Look at the way Paisley has been shown up as being totally ineffectual as a leader despite his half century of bluster. Sinn Fein, for all the talk about their professionalism, behind the facade are just as inept. Their master plan - namely get a UI and let everybody pick up the pieces (and the bodies) afterwards makes the idea to invade Iraq appear to have been well thought out, justifiable and ultimately worthwhile.

So Gerry Adams can play hard and fast with the truth, Henry.
but the Sunday Independent can't expose Sinn Fein for its IRA
connections? And you don't care as long as the appeasement
process runs its course. As far as all other parties are
concerned, that 'republican' mindset came off the rails at
Newry.

What you describe as an armed campaign, Henry, was also a
murderous bombing campaign, targetting civilians and other
soft targets. The way the IRA saw it, anyone who was a
Protestant was a Brit, and therefore dispensible. In fact, two
Australian tourists in GERMANY, for goodness sake, were
murdered by IRA activists because their ACCENT was
mistaken for Cockney ---- so they were presumed to be British
soldiers in mufti.

You're right on the button, Ringo. It looks as if Henry has been
sent out to stir up trouble and keep the pot boiling on behalf of
the Shinners big green machine. Well, I have better things to do
with my time --- and with my energy.

Ringo

Nobody who opposes the Agreement has managed to come up with a realistic alternative. I'd be interested to hear yours.

Richard

So Gerry Adams can play hard and fast with the truth, Henry. but the Sunday Independent can't expose Sinn Fein for its IRA connections?

It can do what it likes. But I don't find it credible on the facts.

It looks as if Henry has been
sent out to stir up trouble and keep the pot boiling on behalf of the Shinners big green machine

I haven't been sent by anybody.

Nobody who opposes the Agreement has managed to come up with a realistic alternative. I'd be interested to hear yours.

What makes you think I oppose the agreement?
The beauty of the agreement was that it provided a mechanism for 'parking' the constitutional question to give people the breathing space to deal with the other far more pressing issues.

This hasn't happened simply because republicans and loyalists both view and treat the agreement as a vehicle to achieve a UI. This dragged the constitutional issue back to the fore again and negated the potential benefits of the agreement.

It has now got to the stage that if the GFA disappeared in the morning, how would we notice?

the truth is the provos willnever go away thank god

Long before the questions of criminality, constitutional authority
or the infiltration of essential services (by the IRA) became
common currency, the Provisional movement made a couple of
huge strategic errors (which were soon overtaken by events).

They refused to scrap every last ounce of semtex and every
obsolete weapon, in the wake of the wholesale release of their
prisoners. And they made it patently clear that their objective
was to bypass any accommodation with Unionism, and go
straight for the jugular vein of the body politic in the South.

Naturally, this sent alarms bells ringing North and South of the
border, among both their friends (within Fianna Fail, for
instance) and their enemies -- who are legion. On a minor
note, it was a silly mistake to target the Progressive Democrats
as it made Sinn Fein seem petty, and jealous of another small
party who were punching well above their weight. (And to
Fianna Fail, the PDs are worth that weight in gold --- and will
be to the Labour/Fine Gael coalition if they are to win the next
election).

The recent display of old unionist triumphalism by the Orange
Order, for example, ("See no evil, hear no evil, speak no
sense"), was overtaken only by the actions of the UDA, and the
murders committed by the UVF (whose 'ceasefire' was
eventually declared over) -- in spite of the PUP's David Ervine
assertion that a British undercover operation was setting the
competing Loyalist gangs at each other's throat.

This was like grist to the

Long before the questions of criminality, constitutional authority
or the infiltration of essential services (by the IRA) became
common currency, the Provisional movement made a couple of
huge strategic errors (which were soon overtaken by events).

They refused to scrap every last ounce of semtex and every
obsolete weapon, in the wake of the wholesale release of their
prisoners. And they made it patently clear that their objective
was to bypass any accommodation with Unionism, and go
straight for the jugular vein of the body politic in the South.

Naturally, this sent alarms bells ringing North and South of the
border, among both their friends (within Fianna Fail, for
instance) and their enemies -- who are legion. On a minor
note, it was a silly mistake to target the Progressive Democrats
as it made Sinn Fein seem petty, and jealous of another small
party who were punching well above their weight. (And to
Fianna Fail, the PDs are worth that weight in gold --- and will
be to the Labour/Fine Gael coalition if they are to win the next
election).

The recent display of old unionist triumphalism by the Orange
Order, for example, ("See no evil, hear no evil, speak no
sense"), was overtaken only by the actions of the UDA, and the
murders committed by the UVF (whose 'ceasefire' was
eventually declared over) -- in spite of the PUP's David Ervine
assertion that a British undercover operation was setting the
competing Loyalist gangs at each other's throat.

This was like grist to the

There seems to have been a good strong exchange of views here. Just remember to keep playing the ball!

Richard

On a minor
note, it was a silly mistake to target the Progressive Democrats
as it made Sinn Fein seem petty, and jealous of another small
party who were punching well above their weight.

I think any fair observer would conclude that it was the PDs who targetted Sinn Fein. They are after that element of the Fine Gael vote which is anti-republican.

Sinn Fein and the PDs are not in competition for votes with each other.

Ringo

Apologies for suggesting you opposed the Agreement. It was the peace process you were talking about.

The peace process is a joke at this stage, corrupted beyond recognition primarly because of the inbred one-eyed approach taken by the gullible and the poorly educated.

The beauty of the agreement was that it provided a mechanism for 'parking' the constitutional question to give people the breathing space to deal with the other far more pressing issues.

Where the main political division is between unionist and nationalist the issue will never be parked. But through the Agreement we can work together on other issues anyway.

(continued...)
This was like grist to the mills of a commentator like Max
Hastings who (in the Guardian) lost no time in reminding
Northern Unionists that they were living on borrowed time. He
forgot to remind Republicans that the IRA is an even more
endangered species -- if Sinn Fein is to make any progress in
the Republic. Sinn Fein knows it. And they equally recognise
that they have to attract candidates like the hurling sportsman
Sean Og O hAilpin in Cork, if they are to have any hope of
garnering the necessary transfers (in our transferrable voting
system of Proportional Representation).

The PDs (you are right about this, Henry) are not in competition
with Sinn Fein for the same votes. But they are in competition,
if you'll excuse the analogy, for the hand of Fianna Fail, or
some other combination, in a political marriage of convenience.
And Michael McDowell has as much right (and more) to call
himself a Republican as any SF supporter. Still, my money's on
a Labour-Fine Gael coalition at this stage, with support from
anyone other than the Shinners.

Richard

And Michael McDowell has as much right (and more) to call himself a Republican as any SF supporter.

I don't dispute McDowell's right to call himself anything he wants. When the PDs run a canditate in my constituency I'll take that seriously.

Still, my money's on
a Labour-Fine Gael coalition at this stage

Did you see this morning's poll? I can agree with you that the government deserve to lose but I don't think it's going to fall into the rainbow's lap. I think a FF/Lab coalition will be the outcome. And it may last two terms.

I just don't see when the gains will come from to put the rainbow in.

Well, we have a PD candidate in this constituency (Tom
Parlon). But, I'm fairly sure he has no deep Republican
ambitions, Henry. Maybe we can loan him out to you for
reprogramming. (Sorry about that, Tom).

Richard

Maybe we can loan him out to you for
reprogramming.

It wouldn't be his first time

Henry:

I think a FF/Lab coalition will be the outcome. And it may last two terms.

Interesting. What are you predicating that on Henry? A collapse in the PD vote?

Mick

It's based on a seat loss for the government parties (not the PDs in particular) but insufficent gains for the rainbow to form a government.

Henry,

Where the main political division is between unionist and nationalist the issue will never be parked.

The SDLP and the pro-agreement elements in the UUP managed to do just that for a very brief time, before being undermined by others fixated with the old question.

The agreement can only be implemented if the constitutional question is put aside for sufficent time to allow the institutions of the agreement to take hold. I think it is probably too late for this to happen.

Unlike the rest of constitutional nationalism, I don't believe that the republican movement really has any incentive to see the agreement implemented. Now that the decommissioning issue is finally coming to a close, all it has to do is out-manouvre the unionists (which is proving to be remarkably easy) and it can sit back and point the finger, and play the long game.

But through the Agreement we can work together on other issues anyway.

It is clear that this is not happening.

Regarding the peace process/agreement mix-up, I had thought of them as being interchangable to an extent;

What is the primary aim of this peace process from a republican point of view? Peace or unity or something else?

And isn't supporting the peace process something different from being pro-agreement?

You're clearly factoring in third party gains then.

Ringo

What is the primary aim of this peace process from a republican point of view? Peace or unity or something else?

The aim of republicanism is to secure a national republic on the island. The peace process in the view of this republican is to make the attainment of that objective through peaceful means a realistic proposition.

And isn't supporting the peace process something different from being pro-agreement?

I think it is but it's a fine distinction at this stage. Put it this way if the Agreement fell the process would have to go on. But what it would lead back to would look very like the Agreement.

Mick

Indeed. But don't ask me for numbers this far out.

Richard

"So Gerry Adams can play hard and fast with the truth, Henry. but the Sunday Independent can't expose Sinn Fein for its IRA connections?"

In fact, the Sunday Independent signally can't expose SF for its IRA connections, or at least has never managed it. But then, on this issue, the SIndo doesn't do exposé, just innuendo.

When you say SF went "straight for the jugular vein of the body politic in the South" you meant offered candidates for election on the same basis as everyone else, right?

Ringo

Isn't the truth that it provided both "a mechanism for 'parking' the constitutional question" and "a vehicle to achieve a UI", but you only wanted the former?

Beauty, I would suggest, it in the eye of the beholder.

Many a Labour supporter would dearly love to form a coalition
with Fianna Fail rather than Fine Gael, for practical and
ideological reasons. I don't think Pat Rabbitte is one of them. Is
this the reason for their relatively low standing in the polls? Or
is there still a lingering resentment of the old Democratic Left
influence on the fortunes of the Party?

The Republican movement is up to its neck in crime, violence
and political posturing, taig. I'm looking forward to the next
installment of exposure on Channel 4's Dispatches this coming
Thursday evening? Aren't you?

Richard

Is it a repeat?

No. Not on the same basis as everyone else,Taig. No other
party in the Republic has a paramilitary wing to skew things in
its favour.

Hi Henry94/Mick,

"I think a FF/Lab coalition will be the outcome. And it may last two terms."

FF are down 3pc in today's published poll. On today's Irish Times, Labour are said to be targeting 14 seats at the next GE. Combining this with the projected collapse in FF's "Middle Ireland" vote, FF/Lab as the next coalition seems the most realistic outcome.

Are you going to work the evening shift, Taig?

MCT -

Isn't the truth that it provided both "a mechanism for 'parking' the constitutional question" and "a vehicle to achieve a UI", but you only wanted the former?

Not at all. The republican movement and the majority of unionism have completely abdicated their responsibility to wider society as a whole, at the expense of their core constituency and the simplistic fixation with which of two incredibly similiar western european democracies they are in.

If the constitutional issue was set aside until the agreement was implemented (the institutions and the spirit) and both genuinely worked for the benefit of all in providing a stable progressive society, then the agreement will take care of the big question.

I have no problem with a united, devolved, stable NI making a request to join the Republic. And if the majority here concur, then I have no problem with that.

Richard, you are deluding yourself if you think there could be any possible revelations in the Dispatches programme which would embaress MCT or his friends. On another thread about the NB robbery he has told us that even if it was conclusively proved that the leadership of SF was involved in criminality, and believe me it would take an incredible weight of evidence before they would admit it, I'm talking signed confessions, no, televised confessions (signed confessions might have been beaten out of them) + video evidence + witness evidence + forensic evidence + a clear link by link unbroken money chain + other sundry evidence, it would still not affect his voting intentions. He's quite happy to vote for organised crime, as long as they are Republican gangsters. Then they cry foul if anyone calls SF voters delinquent.

Not tonight, Richard. I was hoping to get away at a decent hour this evening, although my fiddling around on here might imperil that. Why do you ask?

btw, you think the RA skews things in the south in SF's FAVOUR? I don't.

I'm looking forward to the Toolis programme, but I'm not really expecting to see anything we don't already know.

SF voters are delinquent

Care to comment, MCT?

pacart

"On another thread about the NB robbery he [IE, ME] has told us that even if it was conclusively proved that the leadership of SF was involved in criminality ... it would still not affect his voting intentions."

I said no such thing, and you should apologise.

He's quite happy to vote for organised crime"

I most certainly am not.

Ringo

"The republican movement and the majority of unionism have completely abdicated their responsibility to wider society as a whole, at the expense of their core constituency and the simplistic fixation with which of two incredibly similiar western european democracies they are in."

I don't want to get into what the unionists have done. However, I can's see how you can say that of republicanism. It has come up to the mark on every score. Non-violence, participation at stormont, participation in British government, outreach to unionism, keeping a lid on communal tensions, decommissioning, and now "war is over".

I'm tempted to ask whether you'll be satisfied before you see Martin McGuinness standing naked in the Republican plot at Milltown among a pile of newly-decommissioned armalites singing the Sash with a union jack draped over his shoulders.

MCT, I do apologise, it was Henry94

Q. If the IRA did do it would you stop voting SF Henry94?
A. It wouldn't be that sort of an issue.

Sorry.

thanks pacart

Q. If the IRA did do it would you stop voting SF Henry94?
A. It wouldn't be that sort of an issue.

It being the Northern Bank robbery.

I would indeed be deluding myself, pacart, if I expected the
Dispatches program, or any snippet of media expose, to be an
epiphany like the Road to Damascus, for most hard line
'republicans' -- or 'loyalists' for that matter. What is important is
that the wider community is alerted to the long criminal roots
being put down by these paramilitary gangsters, and their much
more respectable 'political' godfathers.

I agree

"alerted"

classic!

and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and alerted, and........

Forget the semantics, Lert. Forget the red herrings. Just let the
chips fall where they will.

The gist of the story seems to be this: Phil Flynn, a former Vice
President of Sinn Fein, buddy and confidant of our Prime
Minister (Bertie Ahern), executive director (if memory serves)
of the Bank of Scotland, is involved (unwittingly or not) in shady
dealings with the Bulgarian 'mafia' to money-launder millions of
pounds, on behalf of the Provisional IRA in hot property deals,
hotel complexes, sports facilities and apartments, in the East
European 'tax haven', with the broad aim of bankrolling the Sinn
Fein push for power in Ireland for the foreseeable future.

Other Cork businessmen and investment brokers (Chesterton
Finances, for one) may also be involved. Then, the fly in the
ointment. The Northern Bank Heist causes the s**** to hit the
fan. A joint Garda - PSNI task force is approved to investigate
the various strands of money-laundering, with the Criminal
Assets Bureau (in the South) and the Assets Recovery Agency
(in the North) also involved. A hilarious vignette has one
suspected 'republican' bag man burning 'millions' of pounds
Sterling in his suburban back-garden in Cork, when the cops
start flushing the more naive criminal elements from their nests
with some well timed media 'leaks'.

But, hey man, what do I know. You never read it here, OK?

It sounds quite exciting when you say it fast like that. There's a decent screenplay there.

Except for the "joint Garda - PSNI task force". Can't we do better than that?

Maybe we could switch it for a sadistic-but-sexy former Bulgarian state security operative (I see Angelina Jolie) charged with raising her country's image (and pulses) prior to EU accession, teaming up with a brooding and vengeful Mossad agent (Colin Farrell would be brilliant in this role) seeking revenge for the killing of his brother by Abu Nidal using IRA technology taught to them by Gerry Adams in a farmhouse outside Swatragh.

There could be a frantic car chase around Bushmills ending with a daring attempted helicopter extraction off that island at Carrick-a-Rede, with a heart-stopping Indiana Jones moment on the rope bridge.

And the music, think of the music. Matisyahu meets Luke Kelly meets NumaNumaYea.

Catholicoooo
Protestantaaaaa
Catholicoooo
Protestantaa-haaa!

Aah, Taig, don't spoil it.

Mind you, if we got the Dutch Fire Dept. (who can pump water
instead of iron) to siphon off the waters covering the Giant's
Causeway as it extends out into the Atlantic, and folowed it all
the way to Fingal's Cave in Scotland, we might find that the
Ulster Scots ancestors didn't really walk on water when they
first crossed into Ireland, but just waded in on a secret Roman
road barely 6 inches below the waves.

That's where the IRA arms dumps are buried, by the way.
Don't believe all that stuff about General De Chastelain going
fishing, to kill time. He puts on his hip-waders and heads out
into the Atlantic, straight for Fingal's Cave, where a Hollywood
film crew is making that blockbuster you mentioned --- 'Venus
de Milo -- and the missing arms'.

Many hundreds of Irish people have bbought property in Bulgaria over the last few years. Over 300,000 Irish people own property abroad and Bulgaria is said to be good value.

So no matter how much mood music, allegations and conclusion drawing you apply to it a property transaction is of itself not unusual.

It will be up to the program to establish if anything unusual was going on and if there is a political connection we should worry about.

m

I don't want to get into what the unionists have done. However, I can's see how you can say that of republicanism. It has come up to the mark on every score.

I believe you. It is a failing of republicans to see that it is a bit late to be choreographing the wind up of the IRA in 2005. This delay essentially ensured that the necessary momentum and meagre goodwill generated in 1998 disapated. Not to mention Columbia, the Northern Bank job, and the assorted day-to-day criminality that republicans, whether on an individual or organisational basis are engaged in.

And unless you know something I don't, I don't think the IRA have put all their arms beyond use yet, in line with the agreement.

I'm tempted to ask whether you'll be satisfied before you see Martin McGuinness standing naked in the Republican plot at Milltown among a pile of newly-decommissioned armalites singing the Sash with a union jack draped over his shoulders.

No, just Martin doing his job as minister for Education, or whatever, in a fully functioning executive after seeing to the end of the IRA's arms and criminality will do nicely.

Henry -

does it not strike you as unlikely that the authorities in the Republic would pick someone as closely connected to the inner circle of the government and the highest echelons of the financial services sector to be stitched up for this? Aren't these the sorts of people that we usually complain about being beyond the reach of the law? Surely they could have just pinned it all on Ted Cunningham instead of risking the reputation of the fincancial services sector in the Republic and the Taoiseach's personal judgement?

MCT,

My last posting was just my way of saying we will be better
served by PC Plod, in the long run, than by any 'pc plot'
devised in Hollywood.

Ringo

I'm not claiming that anyone is being stitched up by authorities in the Republic. I'm waiting to see where the evidence leads.

Surely they could have just pinned it all on Ted Cunningham instead of risking the reputation of the fincancial services sector in the Republic and the Taoiseach's personal judgement?

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Phil Flynn faces no charges I'm aware of in relation to money-laundering. Neither does Ted Cunningham.

Henry,

Both are under investigation by the CAB. If you accept that there is no political motivation behind the investigation, then surely it is being carried out in good faith and with good reason?

Whatever about Cunningham, I am more than willing to hold fire in relation to Flynn, but I can't see how they'd have risked getting it totally wrong.

As a matter of interest, where does £2m in sterling in a bin out the back, found not long after a £26m bank robbery, where the only suspects are the IRA, turned up in an investigation into IRA money laundering lead? Be honest...

"And unless you know something I don't, I don't think the IRA have put all their arms beyond use yet, in line with the agreement."

They've done a damn sight more to implement the agreement than either the British or the unionists.

"It is a failing of republicans to see that it is a bit late to be choreographing the wind up of the IRA in 2005. This delay essentially ensured that the necessary momentum and meagre goodwill generated in 1998 disapated. Not to mention [assorted allegations]"

With respect, cobblers! Decommissioning has turned out to be EXACTLY what SF said it was; a dirty, mendacious excuse to keep republicans under the whip. Now that it's being completed apparently its "currency has been devalued".

I'm sorry, but nationalists don't fall for this crap any more.

"As a matter of interest, where does £2m in sterling in a bin out the back, found not long after a £26m bank robbery, where the only suspects are the IRA, turned up in an investigation into IRA money laundering lead?"

How do you know it was an "investigation into IRA money laundering" and not an easy peg to hand the republican movement on.

Richard Dowling

If PC Plod wants my trust, he needs to start earning it. It's there to be won, but not as they're going about it now.

Ringo

As a matter of interest, where does £2m in sterling in a bin out the back, found not long after a £26m bank robbery, where the only suspects are the IRA, turned up in an investigation into IRA money laundering lead? Be honest...

If there had been no bank robbery and "security sources" were briefing journalists that the money was from smuggling I'm sure you would have been quite willing to believe it. Or would you have said "Two million? No way! Too much!"

If the IRA did have a money laundering operation then I imagine they would have a few million in there at the worst of times.

'Middle-class taig'

More pc nonsense.

Where in the world (apart from Iraq) do the Police services
start out by trying to win people's trust? They start out by
enforcing the law impartially (and with natural reserve and
common decency, if they are prudent -- now there's an old
fashioned word). It seems to me as if the PSNI and the Gardai
are miles ahead of anything that the Provos and the Loyalist
thugs even conceive of as justice.

Just look at the punishment beating some 'republican' thugs
inflicted on Denis Bradley (a decent 'green' representative on
the NI policing board) in Derry last evening. What a shower of
cowardly idiots. What an indictment of the 'community policing'
being advocated by the Provisional IRA.

Richard

"Where in the world (apart from Iraq) do the Police services start out by trying to win people's trust?"

I don't care. It's what they have to do here, having gratuitously and grotesquely abused catholics and republicans for generations.

"They start out by enforcing the law impartially (and with natural reserve and common decency"

That would do for starters.

"It seems to me as if the PSNI and the Gardai
are miles ahead of anything that the Provos and the Loyalist thugs even conceive of as justice."

I wonder would Mrs Finucane agree.

"Just look at the punishment beating some 'republican' thugs inflicted on Denis Bradley .... What a shower of
cowardly idiots."

I agree.

"What an indictment of the 'community policing'
being advocated by the Provisional IRA."

That's an unbelievable stretch.

How do you know it was an "investigation into IRA money laundering" and not an easy peg to hand the republican movement on.

Because the investigators said it was. And they should know, they did the investigating.

Why do you continue with the fantasy that republicans stopped doing bad things the day you started voting for them? It forces you to come up with highly unusual scenarios and conspiracy theories. Go on, call the Duck a Duck.

Henry,

One way or the other, I would doubt that there was a legitimate reason for storing £2m in a bin.

Ringo

One way or the other, I would doubt that there was a legitimate reason for storing £2m in a bin.

I don't think anyone would dispute that. But there are countless illegitimate reasons. Early confidence expressed by the police and politicans that forensic evidence would link the haul to the Northern Bark robbery has proved misplaced.

I don't think anyone would dispute that. But there are countless illegitimate reasons. Early confidence expressed by the police and politicans that forensic evidence would link the haul to the Northern Bark robbery has proved misplaced.

Have you heard anything to the contrary since then? I don't think I have.

Ringo

We were through this in
March

and

June

Now it's September and there's still no sign of Godot.

But it's mere allegation that SF is involved in any wrongdoing. You want me to accept otherwise?, well, if you pardon the expression "show me the money".

June

"Taig"

The Provisional IRA were trailblazers in the black art of
punishment beatings. Both in theory and application.
Crucifixions, kneecappings, water torture, burning, head shots
and blunt trauma injuries. Now Gerry Adams and his Sinn Fein
community activists stand, arms akimbo, lecturing others on
how to administer justice. What a joke.

You'd think the murder of Robert McCartney never happened,

Of course, the PSNI will never measure up to the high
standards being set by the IRA. Who could, and live to tell the
tale? All their heroes seem to dead ones. And we know how
deep THEY are buried.

Now it's September and there's still no sign of Godot

LOL! Have a bit of patience, man. Sure we'll probably be going 'round in the same circles in a few more months time too. It doesn't prove or disprove anything, nor does it change the facts as we know them.

But it's mere allegation that SF is involved in any wrongdoing. You want me to accept otherwise?, well, if you pardon the expression "show me the money".

I doubt very much that this allegation will ever be proven. Not that that means anything one way or the other.