Alex seems to be arguing that the PSNI should allow balaclava clad orange supporters to block roads, isolate Nationalist communities and break the law while he and elected reps observe.

The people Alex was with were and are law-beakers engaged in illegal activity designed to intimidate and worse.

It becomes clearer and clearer just how committed to the rule of law all levels of Unionism are. Not at all.

Alex seems to be arguing for facilitation of Orange supporters and paramilitaries while they break the law, intimidate their neighbours and engage in violent lawlessness.

I suggest Mr Benjamin is a supporter of lawlessness and violence given his contribution. Maybe his rejection of the violence and call for an end to inflammatory illegality was too subtle for these eyes?

Alex does the usual unionist thing, and jumps into bed with the loyalists to justify violence against the police. Given the videotape evidence which exists of people in Orange sashes openly attacking police lines, and given the number of reported police injuries, it's going to be difficult to convince anyone of this line of events.

"The Police, now right outside our offices, were clearly amped up and enjoying the situation, many laughed and smiled to each other and I heard some shouting ‘Orange bastards’ or ‘Protestant bastards’ at protestors."

The police are 12% Catholic. It's going to take a lot for me to believe this.

Comerade Stalin I agree with you but on one point a correction - the police are actually now 18-19% Catholic.

I am heartened to hear that the PSNI are taking a more robust approach. Let it continue.

As a catholic from springfield road, I have always been impressed by the orange brethen and indeed look forward to the stirring sight of these decent men marching the road. Its my belief that evil satanic forces are at work in hindering these upright citizens from witnessing their faith by their uplifting public demonstrations.

I'm going to clip a few of these replies. I'm surprised at some of our more respectable posters who normally regulate themselves to the play the ball and not man rule.

Mick

Bullshit is Bullshit, I was not man playing

I have absolutely no sympathy for unionist politicians who sanctimoniously declare the police were professional when dealing with 'republican' rioters but are genuinely alarmed and upset when the police use the same tactics on their doorstep. I think working class unionist families are as fed up with all this as the rest of us are, but the DUP and UUP should be ashamed of themselves. They showed absolutely no leadership, large levels of hypocrasy and in Ian Paisley's case made comments that I found very threatening.

Mick, I agree completely with the man-not-ball rule, but in view of the levels of hypocrasy from the leadership of the two main unionist parties, I think a greater leeway should be allowed here.

slug, I stand corrected. But my point was, it would be pretty stupid for officers to be shouting that given those standing next to them (although I am aware that pro-IRA slogans got shouted at an Xmas bash - pretty stupid joining the police and being pro-IRA, when Sinn Fein have refused to condemn anyone who attacks police officers).

Gum, I agree (the consensus on here is surprisingly uplifting). Adams said earlier that if he'd made the comments that Paisley did, people would be calling for his arrest. I suspect that he is right.

If this rioting is a sign that the police are taking on violent loyalism and facing it down, then it is perhaps not such a bad thing for the future.

To quote Father Jack. That would be an ecumenical matter. Crat man/womanfully led the way with a fulsome critique of the thinking behind an eyewitness piece - several people immediately refused to follow.

Throwing insults only pushes the standard of debate downwards. If people would rather do that, then there are many other places on the web which are happy to host it. I'm not!

I may be biased but the above scenario as described by the author seems hardly plausible.

If I am incorrect and the facts are as stated then perhaps that particular Unionist will start to appreciate why the RUC became such a discredited force in the nationalist psyche.

I wonder will mainstream unionisms recent discovery of "police heavy-handedness" help their sense of perspective on erstwhile nationalist greivances?

The scales fell off my eyes when that OO guy, Dawson Ballie, made his comments on Saturday, when Reg Empey and Ian Paisley stood together predicting terrible consequences, when the OO people were shown fighting the police, and the UUP are now criticising the police not the rioters.

I am a law and order person and today the only party that is articulating my feelings is the Alliance Party.

I witnessed around 200 loyalists approaching the Albertbridge road from the Ravenhill road on saturday afternoon. This is nowhere near the orange hall, so i can only presume that these protesters were not part of the same group which Alex Benjamin is describing.

The majority of this group were masked, some with scarves tied round their faces and others wearing balaclavas.

Many were carrying sticks and a different assortment of cudgels.

I'm amazed that these people can be described as protesters.It looked more like a mob to me.

Trouble had not started at this point, so i was able to drive on past the area, prior to the trouble.

If this account is actually true* it's a tad worrying. Personally, I would be inclined to support the PSNI in all of this as they have an absolutely impossible task. They are surrounded by %^$£, green £$%^ on one side and orange $%£^& on the other. I wouldn't want to be in their position.

*it's hard to imagine cops laughing and smiling in what must be a frightening situaiton for them

CS

I wasn't at east belfast but I have heard officers of the PSNI and believe it or not RUC using such abusive terms.

There was more spin than communication, with my favourite vote appealing sentence being, 'The UUP offices became a safe haven for those caught in the street,' and while some of the observations seem down right unbelievable at first reading, we'll have to wait to see if the jist of what Mr Benjamin said is true or not.

Although he might have to wait 30 years before being vindicated.

A bunch of thugs and sectarian idiots with nothing to lose guided by the loyalist paramilitary mothership are responsible for the last 2 night’s unnecessary violence.
They couldn’t care less about decent hard working people from whatever religion.

There are no more excuses, republicans have swallowed their final bitter pill and will soon have made all the moves required of them.
The union is democratically protected under the agreement. There is also enough protection under the agreement against those who choose violence.

The leadership of the unionism should now lead, take the tough decisions necessary to sharepower fairly and equally with all the people of this society and
show some vision to build a future for us all and our children to come and avoid this yearly nonsense. The forces of law & order can then come down hard equally on WHOEVER tries to bully using violence.

Stop winging and get on with it. It’s what the silent majority here want.

Loyalists/Unionists, angered by, amongst other things, reforms to the police have aired their grievances by, well, attacking the police.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Makes me remember the smile I had on my face listening to Empey and the bold Arlene Foster at West Belfast Talks Back using the fact that loads of Protestants complain about the police too (apparently more actually, probably 'cause Nationalists don't see the point) as a great reason not to reform them.

Idiocy.

Disband the PSNI and ban plastic bullets.

Sure the PSNI love this riotiong etc etc, that is why they insight it with their smart comments like " orange bastards " as it gets them plenty of over time in the next months wages.

Good post getonwithit.

Nigel Dodds on TV blaming Catholics and republicans for this loyalist rioting and people posting that the RUC are anti-loyalist and pro republican! This part of the world has got to be THE MOST SURREAL area in the known universe! The hypocrisy is genuinely breath taking. I am also surprised that after only several murders, numerous forced evictions and only a few hundred rounds of live ammunition being fired at the police that the British govt. have the cheek to consider declaring the loyalist ceasefire as void.

This rioting is nothing surprising, as usual the DUP, OO and loyalist paramilitaries act in unison. What about the police arresting Mr Paisley Snr for inciting riotous behaviour? For a group of people that claim to be 'loyal' to Britain, they don't seem very keen to adhere to British laws!

Some one should tell the loyalist/unionist alliance that Sinn Fein have not joined the RUC...........yet.

I am going to communicate how this non-expert read some of the piece by Alex.

Orangemen and supporters gathered outside the Orange Hall at 2.00pm before making their way up to the Albertbridge to make a peaceful protest. The merits of this protest are not for me to argue. They came under sustained stoning and bottling from Short Strand residents who had clearly come prepared. The police response to the attacks from Short Strand residents was woefully inadequate. Rather than move in to prevent the attacks from continuing they more or less passively stood by and allowed the situation to develop.

Sounds like : Orangemen, masked loyalists and others gathered an hour before the Whiterock parade and set off to block access to and attack the Short Strand.

The Short Strand kicked their asses and Michael thinks it was the PSNI’s job to protect them.

When Loyalists began to return stones the Police eventually sprang into action. There was a palpable sense of frustration that the Police were effectively turning a blind eye to Short Strand residents but were ‘rushing’ those on the Loyalist side.After a period of calm the protesters at the bridge were able to make their way to the interface at the corner of Albertbridge road and Castlereagh Road. Stone throwing ensued.

When the Orangemen and masked Loyalists looked like they might come further out of their area and invade the Short Strand the PSNI intervened and chased them away

The Orangemen and masked Loyalists then moved off to try and cause trouble at another entrance to the Short Strand

What followed next, in my opinion, utterly defied logic:The Police surged up the Albertbridge Road. And I mean surged, knocking women to the ground with their Land Rovers and pushing and hitting people who were in their way. Had these people been rioters with scarves around their faces or brandishing petrol bombs they could have at least had an excuse. But women with no weapons and political representatives who were trying to reason with them and defuse tensions where herded like sheep going to an abattoir.

The PSNI then had a battle with these Orangemen and masked Loyalists

The UUP offices became a safe haven for those caught in the street as Police edged up the road and forced the rioters up towards Templemore Avenue. In the street I saw an elderly man in his 70’s who was forced to the ground, had his head truncheoned and when he raised his hands to protect his head, he had his hands truncheoned too. The force was so great it split his finger open. We managed to get him, concussed and rambling, inside the offices and administer some basic first aid, others followed young and old with head injuries or other injuries.
We called an ambulance which arrived swiftly and departed just as swiftly as some of those injured were reluctant to go to hospital. The ambulance driver said that they couldn’t get out and treat the wounds so I told him we only had basic first aid and said

Innocent bystanders, women and those who lost their bottle hid in the UUP office with the author of this piece

The Police, now right outside our offices, were clearly amped up and enjoying the situation, many laughed and smiled to each other and I heard some shouting ‘Orange bastards’ or ‘Protestant bastards’ at protestors. Many deliberately pointed rifles or plastic bullet weapons at protestors.

The PSNI were rude to people who just tried to kill them

Anyone else care to try being a ‘communications expert’?

Isnt this precisely the sort of firm policing that was being called for, by both the UUP and the DUP, in connection with the UVF takeovers in recent weeks?

Perhaps it might serve as a wakeup call to those who have long called for the security forces to "take the gloves off" and other such bullsh*t, to see an example of what that can actually mean in practice.

Michael above should read Alex.

Raff should see that there is little requirement for Sinn Fein to join either the RUC or PSNI, since they are being enabled to change or influence the outcome of most decisions made by any quarter, well assisted by the British Gov. A reversal of history may soon be biting bums however!

Jo, that's a damn good point, I almost forgot about the unionist's half-hearted murmurings that the police would have to take action against the feud.

I would like to suggest that Alex Benjamin is stretching not only the truth but his imagination beyond the realms of possibility. I live in East Belfast and am fully aware of the logistics of the area. To suggest that one could possibly see what was going on in the Short Strand from the UUP offices is absolutely impossible and totally unrealistic! Was Mr. Alex Benjamin working in the UUP offices or was he as someone who has no selfish interest in what was taking place a hanger on? Did Alex Benjamin notice the so called protestors masks, cudgels, petrol bombs, pipe bombs, and assorted weapons? Was Alex in the safe haven of the UUP offices when the bombs and bullets were directed at the PSNI? several hundred masked Loyalists making their way along the rd towards the small Catholic area of the Short Strand had to be prevented or would Mr Benjamin suggest they be allowed to continue on their merry way maybe to befriend thier neighbours? now they would have needed a safe haven though I don't think the UUP offices would have been afforded to them do you?

All respect to Benji who is someone I greatly like and who I got on with well I think he has the wrong end here. Alex is a civilian with no experience of riotous situations and I very much doubt he has the eye to properly review what was going on. In a confusing melee it can be overwhelming to the senses and I don’t doubt that he was shocked by what he saw. The question is did what he saw fall outside of the normal parameters of police behavior during a riot? I seriously doubt it.

Quite frankly people are damn lucky that the PSNI are as skilled at this as they unfortunately are. In another place violence on this scale would leave a lot of dead on the ground. Come and try that shit against the Boston Police and see how quickly they start shooting at you? Violence of this sort is always unpleasant to see and I am sure Benji is genuinely shocked but does it mean the police relative to what was happening overreacted, who knows? However if he is still bothered try writing to:

Police Ombudsman, New Cathedral Buildings, St Anne's Square, 11 Church Street, Belfast BT1 1PG.

How have the PSNI and Army been "heavy-handed"?

I think they have shown the most enormous restraint.

Crat, your post is the biggest load of tosh I have read on this site in a while, and that's saying something.

For starters: 'Orangemen, masked loyalists and others gathered an hour before the Whiterock parade and set off to block access to and attack the Short Strand.' Where's the reference to masked loyalists in benjamin's piece? It sounds like your imagination is getting the better of you.

Next 'The Short Strand kicked their asses and Michael thinks it was the PSNI’s job to protect them.' firstly, it sounds like you are almost gloating in the fact that one group of people attacked another group of people. What does that say about you? Secondly, what is the PSNI's role if not to protect people??

(edited by moderator..no personel atacks please!)

crat

"The Short Strand kicked their asses"

Nice consistency on violence

Frankly, the value of such stories to the propoganda machine is in the here and now, rather than in any subsequent investigation. I would doubt that such incidents ever make it as far as the Ombudsmans office.

As for the abusive remarks allegedly made by police - I would be more dismissive. A clear ruse to undermine Loyalist confidence in a police force which has the audacity to allow any Catholics to wear its uniform.

Ricardo did you see the news reports?? masked Loyalists were in abundance on the Albertbridge Rd as a matter of fact as I type masked men are again in abundance on the Albertbridge Rd, did you not see them Ricardo ?

gratusi, could you please clarify what you mean, sorry but I don't understand your post.

Hi Victor

My question was where was the reference to masked loyalists in Benjamin's article, which crat was referring to.

Have another wee read and come back to me.

Congrats to unionism for another fine display of PR incompetence. The is another hammerblow for the unionist credibility, and will the last unionist to leave northern ireland please turn off the lights.

Ricardo I think your problem is(and I've no wish to get into a tit for tat slanging match) you have totally missed the point of crats post, it was a rhetorical take on Mr Benjamins writings seen through the eyes off crat not a direct quote. As for the masked Loyalists, don't you find it strange in Mr Benjamins piece that he never mentioned any of them?

Hi victor

I think your problem is that you do not understand what the word 'rhetorical' means. Can you give me your definition, maybe it is my dictionary that is wrong. Thanks

I was at the Albert Bridge between 2(ish) and 4:30 pm on Saturday. Took pictures and TRIED to talk to both sides. While i can't speak of what happened further up the road, i can say what i witnessed: the police were in no way abusive to either side, and seemed to be doing their best to contain the situation. In fact, quite a few of the police were chatting with the loyalist side of the road. I'm not saying this to give the Short Stranders cause to cry foul, I'm saying it to cast further dispersions on Benjamin's claims.

I also feel the need to admit that i ended up nearly the entire time on the Short Strand side, as when i, early into my time spent there, walked from the Short Strand to the other side of the road, a woman started jeering at me and asking me why i talked to "them'uns" first. when i calmly tried to explain to her that i was trying to hear both sides, she started pushing me. a policeman, upon seeing this, very nicely, though very strongly, urged me to move away from the danger.

UTV showed television footage of the rioting at Short Strand during their 5pm bulletin on Saturday.

Many of the protesters were indeed masked and seemed to have an assortment of weapons including crates of bottles which mysteriously appeared out of nowhere.

DSD

I have just posted a contrary view to yours on another site but I have to say that your 7:53 post sums up my own opinion on this matter, not knowing the writer myself and not having witnessed this or any other riot.

oops I mean another thread

Ah certainly ric :
Rhetorical...[/B]Used for persuasive effect[B]

And the masked men continue to be on the Albertbridge Road!!

"heavy-handed policing"

"I condemn the violence, but ..."

"Secretary of State is to blame ..."

Mirror image of the Provos.

"Loyalists" are destroying unionism, yet unionist politicians still pander to them (presumably for fear of losing votes). Well, if they don't do something seriously to confront the evil within the unionist community, it will eventually destroy them, and the Union.

They may lose votes in the short term, but the Union is in danger - not from nationalists, but from "loyalists". They will lose votes from the middle ground if they don't confront the "loyalists".

Parades? You're not going to get a favourable resolution to parading by constantly stirring up trouble around the issue - that only serves to associate parades with violence in the minds of policy and decision-makers and the general public. It's a foolish and stupid strategy, aside from the fact that it is totally unjustifiable.

Ulster at crisis point? Yes, it is - because of the actions of "loyalists".

Oh, and by the way, lads, you see the attacks on Roman Catholic schools and churches, and on individual Roman Catholics - that's not going to save the Union either. You're not going to convice Catholic opinion to support the Union by attacking them, murdering them, and destroying their churches and schools.

"Loyalists"? Stupid, bad people. The word that used to be (many, many years ago) an honourable description, is now a gutter word - it describes scum.

what a preposterous story. defies logic, evidence, history and fact.

what a preposterous story. defies logic, evidence, history and fact.

I think all the whining and moaning from the various "loyal" subject about PSNI brutality and over reaction can be summed up by old Corporal Jones of Dad's Army "they don't like it up 'em"

as said above just desserts - they've been asking for robust policing so bring it on - kick/whip/beat the idle parasitical dross who contribute nothing to their community or society off the streets

willowfield

"Parades? You're not going to get a favourable resolution to parading by constantly stirring up trouble around the issue - that only serves to associate parades with violence in the minds of policy and decision-makers and the general public. It's a foolish and stupid strategy, aside from the fact that it is totally unjustifiable."

excellent analysis,

Sensible analysis from Willowfield.

*….. The word that used to be (many, many years ago) ……..is now a gutter word - it describes scum.
Posted by: willowfield at September 12, 2005 09:47 PM*

More words and expressions but more ironically who might have said them…

“A crime, is a crime, is a crime”. Who said that (easy) but who supported this belief and policy blindly when it was in their favour?

“… take the gloves off…” and the “…one hand tied behind their backs…” regarding the RUCs attempts to appear even-handed ?

More recently we have the expression “MOPE” which is now being directed at the mentioned rioters.

*an honourable description* not to almost 50% of the population

Victoria 1

"To suggest that one could possibly see what was going on in the Short Strand from the UUP offices is absolutely impossible and totally unrealistic!"

Well spotted, and was there not a PSNI helicopter in use as well?

Illegal riotous assembly threatening sectarian murder charged by brave police officers.

Need we say more?

*....now a gutter word - it describes scum.

Posted by: willowfield at September 12, 2005 09:47 PM

... *an honourable description* not to almost 50% of the population

Posted by: Niall at September 12, 2005 10:25 PM *

sorry my post got cut off half way thro'......you are describing the mentioned rioters in the same way as the OO, B-Specials etc have been described by Nationalists since Bombay street hit the news.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

The bottom line here, wherever you're from or whichever 'side' you wish to affiliate yourself with or vote for or apologise for, or indeed oppose or ignore, is this: people who trust the cops, here or anywhere else, are just asking for it.

I've just read it through again and I just can't imagine anyone shouting "protestant bastard!" in this situation. It has too many syllables in it. Prod, Proddy Jaffa or Orange are more likely than protestant. If I was of a mind to go about hurling sectarian abuse at the Pope's flock I wouldn't start shouting "Roman Catholic bastards!" at them. I have only once been on the receiving end of serious (as in not joking - been on the receiving ends of loads of banter) sectarian abuse and "proddy" was the adjective of choice.

I agree with everything Alex Benjamin says.

I do know Alex Benjamin, not well but I have met him on a number of occasions. I found him to be a reasonable guy, likeable, perhaps even genuine. My initial reaction therefore is to give some credance to his report. Of course he may have been mistaken, misled or even just gullible but I don't believe this was a serious attempt to spin the situation (Why would he use his real name?). Eye witness reports are the very stuff of bloggs. There is much to be gleaned from such reports even if you don't agree with persons point of view, it is worth considering what they say.

That said the fundamentals of the situation remain unchanged.

a)The Orange Order is further discredited.
b)Those who oppose the forces of law and order are criminals
c) The police will have to win the hearts and minds of the areas they will police.
d)Paramilitaries are not an alternative form of justice they are the antithesis of justice.
e)Any future political settlement will require power sharing with people from different communities. So those of you gloating over the failure of your political opponents should realise that eventually you will need a political body to share power with.
e)In the absence of a genuine settlement we will see political stalemate, worsening economic conditions and increasing sectarian violence. This will not inrease the chances of a United Ireland (those who desire it take note)!

The trouble with this place is that everybody sees events solely in the context of advancing their own political agenda. There is no attempt to see the wider picture, nor to build a better society for the people of Northern Ireland. Everything is begrudging, negative and lack lustre. People tallk about rights but never responsibilities. There is no imagination, no attempt to reach out to other side, no unifying vision.

Everybody wants peace but only on their terms. The current situation is everyone's problem and as the outworkings of a failed peace process everybody has contributed to it to some extent.

MU

Just a few niggles:-
"sees events solely in the context of advancing their own political agenda"

surely anyone's political agenda is about creating the world that they want to see and that it will make a better society for NI, so they are duty bound to want to advance it and see events in terms of the degree to which they do or do not advance their vision.

The main responsibility that comes with rights is to uphold them and apply them consistantly accross the board. It's when people stop talking or caring about rights that I get scared.

I'll put a question you often ask back at you?

What is your vision and how can it be realised?

bertie
A peaceful non sectarin Northern Ireland governed by high calibre politians from all sections of the community. A Government committed to developing the economy, education and environment of the people of Northern Ireland. A Northern Ireland wherein the constitutional position is secure within the United Kingdom, giving the local government the confidence to engage in as many North South bodies as makes sense.

A Northern Ireland were policing is carried out by the police and the criminal justice system rewards ordinary people and a government which can be booted out of office every 4 or 5 years if they don't measure up.

what the hell are you doing still up at this time of night!

how can it be realised and more particularly how can a government be booted out if it is formed through compulsary powersharing and if it is formed by other means please elaborate?

bertie
Picking the executive by D'hondt was a failure. We need a different method. Perhaps by direct elections, perhaps by presidential election (first and deputy)who then pick a cabinet.
Still use PR for Assembly and they pick committee chairman etc to oversea.

Just a quick suggestion, I am sure there are much better schemes.

As for being up late. I take to long to write reponses to other posts. It probably doesn't show but I try to get the balance right so that my post aren't immediately shot down by the SF/DUP professionals that roam this site. How about you?

I've been in a state of agitation since the riots and am drafting out an article as my catharsis. Roaming the various blogs and posting is a suppliment to this. It's also helping me to hone my arguements. I have been in a bit of a posting frenzy - Posting Traumatic Shock Disorder!

I don't know that there are that many DUP professionals about. I can't think of a regular poster who I know of as DUP. But that might just be that I haven't cottoned on.

I like the visual imagery of people roaming a site and presumably ready to pounce!

Re Stormont I still don't see how we can really vote them out if it's not volentary coallition. I'm a cynic, I don't like to give politicians a place to hide and they can hide in the comulsary aspect and blame problems on that.

I have drafted my article and it is going to be too long but the challenge of tightening it up must wait for another day, as I will be worth nothing at work tomorrow if I don't sleep soon.

That's the beauty of Slugger, you are not restricted to a word count. I'd be stuck if it did ;)

Good night John Boy!

Other than turning the clock back, can anyone please explain what these rioting loyalists actually want apart from the right to annoy their fellow citizens by offensively marching through areas in which they are not welcome ? Is that such a central plank in their collective sense of self-esteem ?

Short Strand is perhaps the best example of an area where complete deliberate,organised ethnic cleansing of the Protestant community has taken place over a period of fifty years.

When I was a child there was a Salvation Army citadel opposite Mountpottinger Police Staion,the area was very mixed and relations within the community were stable.I attended Beechfield School and there was a Sunday school at the corner of Beechfield and Madrid Street which I attended. I lived in Thistle Street and never had any thought that the Roman Catholic community could be any more disadvantaged than we were.I can assure you the levels of poverty were equal.Some Protestants would have visited the parochial hall in St.Matthew's on a Sunday evening to watch films without any fear of victimisation.We often played football together as opposed to simultaneously in Ormeau Park.
At the start of the troubles an imported division of the IRA drilled in the Short Strand before mounting murderous attacks on the Protestant community fromm the church and its spire.Several Protestants were murdered and the relations between the communities went down hill from then. Protestants were evicted from the area including Carlton Street,Edgar Street and Comber Street and over time the attempts by the republican movement to make life unbearable for the people of Cluan Place have been well documented.The ethnic cleansing policy is now complete. The plan now is to move the "peace line" right up to Templemore Avenue and take Thistle Court,Tower Street and Westburn Street and the East Belfast Orange hall at Albertbridge into Republican territory. This will advance the Gerry Adams strategy of making all parades contentious and provide opportunities for republicans to generate instability at the flick of a switch.This is the present perception of the Protestant community in East belfast.

The Parades Commission for its part will never make a determination that favours the civil and religious liberties of the protestant community and must be replaced by a mechanism that enables the Loyal Orders to have freedom of assembly and freedom to walk on the Queen's highway.At Drumcree and Ardoyne it limits parades on the grounds that they would affect community relations and then permits a military style Republican Parade in Ballymena where no tradition of republican parading parading existed.The resultant impact on community relations has been clear to all.

In general the traditional parades of the loyal orders must be permitted to continue as they have for more than a hundred years provided they are conducted in a responsible manner.That is an integral part of the expression of Orange and Protestant culture which must be afforded expression.
Those who wish to protest should be required to act in a peaceful manner and the PSNI should ensure those who step outside the law are effectively dealt with this.

The reports of police failure to act responsibly in East Belfast as described by other contributors are sound and represent the reality. This is not a defence of thuggery-but there is a responsibility on the police to act legally and with impartiality in all situations.

Mr.Orde is too overtly political and anti-protestant in his policies and does not enable the PSNI to enjoy the confidence or respect of the Protestant community..

The parade is traditional because these homes on the S'field road used to be Protestant.

"At the start of the troubles an imported division of the IRA drilled in the Short Strand before mounting murderous attacks on the Protestant community fromm the church and its spire. Several Protestants were murdered "

..I think the reality is that the Short Strand and St Matthews were attacked (June 27 1970) by a drunken mob after an Orange "mini Twelfth" rally. Plus ca change, eh?

T.Ruth sorry but that is the biggest load of clap trap I have ever read with regard to the Short Strand! Your analysis of The Short Strand bears absolutely no resemblence to the area I was born and reared in!

At the start of the troubles an imported division of the IRA drilled in the Short Strand before mounting murderous attacks on the Protestant community fromm the church and its spire.

I think you will find history has it the Loyalist/Protestant community insigated the murderous attacks and the locaL Short Strand community defended their Curch and homes! The Cluan place attacks again NONESENSE the initial incident that led to the rioting in Cluan Place was an attack on Clandeboye Drive by Loyalist who had been displaced from the Shankill after another Loyalist Feud!

The plan now is to move the "peace line" right up to Templemore Avenue and take Thistle Court,Tower Street and Westburn Street and the East Belfast Orange hall at Albertbridge into Republican territory

This is Hysterical paranoia, the nationalist community in Short Strand have no interest in such a strategy, it doesn't exist anywhere in the mindset of anyone in the Short Strand never has and I have no doubt never will! As for the ethnic cleansing of protestants from the Short Strand,well let me dispel that one, I still live in the Short Strand, my next door neighbour is a Protestant from the Newtownards rd, the neighbour next door to that is a Protestant from the Shankill Rd who happens to be a very good friend of mine and a work colleague, how many Catholics live in Cluan Plc or the Newtownards rd or the Shankill Rd or for that matter any area of a similair ilk!

In general the traditional parades of the loyal orders must be permitted to continue as they have for more than a hundred years provided they are conducted in a responsible manner.

Thats the major issue here, conducted in a responsible manner, what is responsible about marching through a Catholic area waving UVF/UDA flags, playing KICK THE POPE music, and mocking the deaths of the inhabitants at the hands of those same loyalist groupings? Take the Springfield parade for example, surely a responsible person wanting to portray his culture to his contempories would walk the lenght and breadth of the Shankill rd, Ballygomartin Rd and be fully enjoyed by its inhabitants but then again is it a parade about culture or coat trailing, I would suggest the latter!

I'm 48 years of age. I'm not much of a blogger(if that's the correct description) but I do like to read on here.All of my life I have tried to be as even minded as I could be but now for the first time in my life I heard myself saying to rioters and the people who turn them out on the streets and the so-called-politicians who try to defend them "If you don't like it and you're not prepared to work peacefully to change it, get out" Not a pleasant or helpful thought. I'm ashamed of myself.
A question: What is a loyalist and what are loyalisms aspirations?

The Short Strand has seen ethnic cleansing of Protestants over the last number of decades - FACT.
It is not under seige at all. I mean has anyone even seen Joe O'Donnell and pinocchio in the same room?
Yes the Prod side of Madrid St and Thistle Court really look like they are laying seige to this poor catholic 'enclave'.

So answer me this. The twelfth used to be enjoyed by many Catholics and there was never any trouble at the parades. So have the Parades become more sectarian or have Catholics?

Republicans think all this unrest is brilliant. But really, it moves us further and further away from a united Ireland. So what are we saying? Should the OO be restricted to their own areas? Well that is going to bode well for a united Ireland. This coupled with the RC desire to have a sectarian schooling system will ensure that a united Ireland remains impossible.
I must say, it was funny seeing a young child (prompted by his parents) waving a tricolour on the roof of one of the S'field rd homes. The irony of the 'orange' element of the flag was obviously lost on them.

The Short Strand has seen ethnic cleansing of Protestants over the last number of decades - FACT.

If its FACT produce the evidence, where has this ethnic cleansing taken place ? how many Protestants have been removed from the Short Strand in the cleansing? where are they now? total nonesense.

Yes the Prod side of Madrid St and Thistle Court really look like they are laying seige to this poor catholic 'enclave'.

Wrecked by those from within thier own community just to get a dividing wall/gate, the paranoia withing East Belfast Unuionism is as I stated earlier reaching hysterical proportions, I live here and know the FACTS do you?

As you obviously have a pc and net access you can look up the census data for yourself. I can provide the URL if you need it.
You really are dellusional to believe that Protestants have not been put out of SS. Please look at the census figures, although I doubt it will make any difference to you. That is why I say it is FACT. The SS reminds every Prod in the East what a united Ireland would be like.
There would be no justice; I mean if a Roman Catholic (RMcC was also a SF/IRA supporter) cannot get justice then who could??

We used to live in Madrid St (what is now 'the catholic' end. Our good Protestant neighbour came home to find his furniture out on the street and was told not to come back. So we left too.

Oh so it was Prods who wreaked their own houses to get a peace wall - what wonderful logic. So now that we have that lovely peace wall all those house are now...er...still bricked up.

So it was Protestants who burnt two elderly sisters out?; poured petrol through the letterbox of a young Protestant woman's house too in thistle court?

AS
"The SS reminds every Prod in the East what a united Ireland would be like. There would be no justice;"

You're away with the fairies to be honest. You have no idea what a UI would be like.

So it was Protestants who burnt two elderly sisters out?; poured petrol through the letterbox of a young Protestant woman's house too in thistle court?

Yes it was and the 2 elderly women in question stated this at the time!
The houses are still bricked up due to the local UDA'S extortion racketeers prohibiting builders working on the said houses, yesterday the very same houses were once again set on fire by Loyalists!!!Fact I live here and seen the blazing houses, houses which were beyond the peace line and could only have been torched by those that could reach them(the Protestants).I can certainly look up the census and I'm sure it would disprove your silly logic, the Short Strand currently has around 3000 inhabitants of that around 200 are of the Protestant faith, having moved here after marriage, how many Catholics could move to Protestant areas and carry on thier faith I would suggest not one. My next door nieghbours(and very good friend) wife is a Protestant from the shankill rd, she travels to watch her father a leading shankill rd Orangeman without fear or hindrance she professes her faith and culture quite openly in the Short Strand without hindrance, would the same apply had her husband moved to her area rather than the other way round ? As for your reference to Robert McCartney thats contemptible, ask the family of Jonathan Stewart about Justice?

Antrim Springfarm

"SS reminds every Prod in the East what a united Ireland would be like."

Of course that same brainless argument could be used to justify a United Ireland.

You will be aware that vast swathes of South Antrim have been ethnically cleansed of Catholics - and that is what the United Kingdom is actually like - it's a country where wholesale ethnic cleansing of Catholics is ongoing (particularly county Antrim).

Ironically, Cloughfern, ethnically cleansed of catholics years ago - there are none left to attack and the rioters managed to burn down the localDUP office

Unionism will eat itself

Please allow me to respond to Alex. Firstly I wish to empathise with Alex because as a Nationalist I understand where he is coming from with regards to police brutality. For the best part of 30 years Catholics/ Nationalists have suffered at the hands of both the RUC and PSNI. The cases of Sean Downes, Pearse Jordan and Nora McCabe are but a few of the prime examples of the murder of innocent Catholics at the hand of the so called police force.
Where I differ from Alex however is that I am not selective in my criticism of the RUC/PSNI. Police brutality/criminality is wrong regardless of whom it is inflicted upon.
Maybe Alex was struck dumb or suffered from acute blindness when the RUC last forced Orange Order "parades" down the Garvaghy and Ormeau roads. On both occassions peaceful protestors (Men, women and children) were forcibly removed by repeated baton charging RUC Officers from their peaceful sit down protests. On both occassions Alex had nothing to say on the matter.
Has Alex been living in some sort of a time warp or does he feel it is only necessary to comment on police brutality when those at the receiving end come from a loyalist/unionist background.

dayslikethis:

You and your views are welcome.

"question: What is a loyalist and what are loyalisms aspirations? "

Its very paradoxical to many that we see antics like this last weekend when the IRA, the traditional enemy of Loyalism and the very state of NI, has announced that its packing bags and slinking away.

Gone is the welcome that the 1994 ceasfire inspired among some Loyalists "We accept the surrender of the IRA"

Loyalism has triumped and the IRA are planning to go, if they already havent.

What remains then? What has always been the case - fear. Fear that a deal has been done. Fear of being the minority in an island full of fenians.

No evidence of this deal is to be found but no evidence will count against the fear that there is one. Paranoia? Well, it would be approrpiate if you consider that Paisley has a history of mental illness.

Now the leader of Ulster Unionism as he always wished to be, has seen off ONeill, Faulkner Trimble, and his arch enemey Fitt. God must be looking at His watch, like the referee last Wednesday night.

Paisley reigns supreme...............over ashes and burned out Protestant businesses and the private cars of ordinary people caught like that pregnant woman in the wrong place.

Whatever Loyalism aspires to - it surely aint this. People have been offered a crossroads many times, under Paisley they have always always chosen the wrong road.

You can read the story of the two sisters here

It was the FIFTH time they had been attacked!! So you need to check out your sources. Well it was probably old Joe 'pinocchio' O'Donnell who told you that. I also remember him saying a 'blast bomb' had been thrown over the peaceline into the SS but alas this turned out to be an empty coke can with insulation tape round it. I bet Joe missed that day in Physics when they talked about projectiles.

It was militant Catholics who have put Protestants our of: SS, Oldpark Rd, Ormeau Rd, Springfield Rd, New Barnsley, Torrens etc etc need I go on??

Also it is evident at ALL of the interfaces who is the agressor.

The following postcodes:
BT5 4EE, BT5 4GF, BT5 4GJ, BT5 4GL, BT5 4GQ, BT5 4LA, BT5 4LE, BT5 4TH, BT5 4TZ, BT5 4WA, BT5 4WD, BT5 4WE, BT5 4YA, BT5 4YB are a snapshot of the SS and have the following culteral responses:

Church of Ireland = 3
Other (including Christian related) = 3
Catholic = 275

Data taken from the last census - FACT
What a mixed area!

As for an Orangeman being welcomed in the SS that is laughable - especially when the McCarntneys are being called "M.O.B's" in the street simply for standing up to SF/IRA. Joe O'Donnell had lied so many times his lies had to catch up with him. So when he bought the land at the back of his house for dubious purposes he was subsequently 'stood down' from SF. But as per usual he 'did nothing wrong'. It's all case of hear no evil, speak no evil, do no evil. As the SS writing says (in ref to Robert) "Whatever you say, say nothing" P.O. Neil

dayslikethis

You and your comments are welcome. Whatever loyalism aspires to, it surely isnt burned out Protestant businesses and the destroyed cars of orduinary people, like that pregnant woman dragged from hers the other evening, or a 2 year old child with 12 stitches.

Paisley presides over all, having seen off ONeill Faulkner, Trimble and lately, Fitt. His kingdon is of ashes, and God must surely be looking at His watch, much as the ref did last Wednesday night. :)

The IRA are going or gone and Loyalism needs them to fight to hate to feel secure in an island stuffied with millions of Fenians.

Having won, the IRA having effectively surrendered, their pathetic political leaders excuse brutality and insinuate that there are Catholics in the PSNI spoiling for a fight with them, so why not shoot and kill a few..loyalists and the Union deserve better but on being offered crossroads, they have always always chosen the wrong road, this time led by a man who in any normal country would have been in jail or in care many decades ago.
Instead, he is leader of the biggest party - and still a deal is feared...

Dayslikethis

Whatever Loyalism aspires to its got to be something better than churchgoers robbed on a bus, a pregnant woman dragged from her car and a 2 yo with 12 stitches in its head.

Paisley has inhereited a kingdon of ashes.

Having seen off ONeill Faulkner Trimble and Fitt, surely God is looking at His watch a bit like the referee last Wednesday night. That was less than a week ago....

First I've no nead to read about the McLaughlin sisters I know them well and I know who burned them out of their home! As for the orangeman I think you should try reading again what I said, you'll find no mention of an Orangeman being welcomed in the Strand!

Also it is evident at ALL of the interfaces who is the agressor.

It certainly is and as I live on one I'm well aware of my agressors and their attempt at ethnic cleansing, and attacks on my Chapel. The census you relate to is hardly a true reflection as I know plenty of people who don't fill in their religion on these things. Finally you seem to have a bit of an obsession with Joe O'Donnell I on the have no oppinion on him whatsoever. Finally Finally I live here I know about the McCartneys as a matter of fact I was very good friends with their younger brother who sadly past away in unfortunate circumstances, I can state quite catagorically the vast majority of Short Strand residents support the McCartneys in their campaign, how many Shankill Rd residents support the Stewart familys campaign in Justice for their loved one, finally,finally,finally

It was militant Catholics who have put Protestants our of: SS, Oldpark Rd, Ormeau Rd, Springfield Rd, New Barnsley, Torrens etc etc need I go on??

I could quote numerous cases of ethnic cleansing of Catholics but quite simply whataboutery is a waste of a good debate, I see it as pointless and as such won't bother!

Is T.Ruth a well known DUP politician currently enjoying a stint in Belfast's City Hall?

Antrim Springfarm

"Also it is evident at ALL of the interfaces who is the agressor."

Of course it is - it's catholics and protestants.

By the way thanks for the info on the Short Strand - I assumed it was an exclusively catholic area - now I find from your research that there actually are protestants living in Short Strand - I am very impressed.

They have their fare share of problems (compare the murder of Robert McCarney with that of Stephen Nelson in Co.Antrim) but the fact that there are still protestants living there is a credit to them.

Well done Short Strand and well done AS for shooting yourself in the foot (typical Loyalist).

During the serious trouble on the Short Strand/Albertbridge road interface in 2002-2003
Suzanne Breen did a piece on the sizeable number of Protestant people living within the Short Strand area.Many were part of mixed marriages and had lived happily and peacefully within the area for many years, some for decades.

Biffo you really are simple. The census stats show the area to be a whopping 2% Protestant. This has dwindled down from around 40-50%.

Victor, you know the sisters? well maybe you could educate your community and stop the numerous attacks on them. You talk about whataboutery and you don't see it in yourself.

I see you have bothered with the census figures yet. The fact of the matter is that only in Carrick has the RC population decreased - FACT. Any area in Belfast which became 20% Nationalist went on to be 90+% Nationalist.

You can not name one single example of where Catholics being ethnically cleansed to the extent of the areas previously listed above. Have you ever seen Torrens? How many empty homes in the SS? How many are empty on the Prod side.

There is one benefit to the SS Republican state of denial - it keeps a united Ireland as just a dream. Each vicious attack on the Protestant neighbours helps secure the union. The sooner republicans realise this the better. By excluding OO marches from 'your' areas also helps make sure a united Ireland on the ground is impossible.

How many empty homes in the SS? How many are empty on the Prod side.

As someone who works within the housing sector, i think the above comment is a little misleading.

Housing associations and the Housing Executive have certain policies regarding 'problem' families who have had problems with their neighbours in different estates in and around Belfast.

Basically they are simply dumped in specific places away from their previous abode.

Unfortunetly for the long term residents of Madrid St/Thistle Court, this is one such dumping ground.

Some residents have found this to be unacceptable and requested moves due to the boistrous nature of the 'new' neighbours and the increase in petty crime.

These places are becoming no go areas for families and the various housing agencies find it impossible to persuade tennants to move into the area

What is the census stats with regard to Catholics in the Shankill, Newtownards rd,Albertbridge rd, Crumlin Rd,Woodstock Rd,Castlereagh Rd,,Cregagh rd,Carrickfergus,Ballymena,Antrim,Larne,Ards,Bangor,Hollywood,Portadown,Ahogill,Rathcoole,Coleraine,Ballymoney,Lisburn town,Randalstown,Banbridge I could of course go on but its pointless! As for the sisters (there name is Greta and Lila McLaughlin by the way) They were burnt out of their homes because they had catholic friends my (aunt home helped them)As for the empty homes issue, thats purely and simply down to intimadation from within,the Loyalist paramiltarys can't live with each other(see latest Loyalist feud) let alone have a Catholic about the place. The union with Britain will disolve and will do so at the hands of the Loyalists, watch and see!

Sooo...no actual rationale as such for this alleged loyalists rage at all then, no ?

VICTOR1
You don't get it. Republicans need a happy settled Unionist population or they have no chance of either a United Ireland or even improving conditions in Northern Ireland. The fate of the two communities who live in Northern Ireland are inextricably linked.

So whilst you wallow in delight at the demise of working class protestants, you are actually condeming yourself and your community to a life of social disadvantage. It is not as if Twinbrook or Poleglass are miles better off than the Shankill.

The only way forward is powersharing as part of a just settlement. Your sectarian attitudes are just a bad as themmuns. When the dust has settled it will be interesting to see how we rebuild (build) community relations (and who is going to fund it).

For the record, I condemn absolutely, attacks against the police,soldiers or just plain ordinary citizens. I oppose riots whether organised or not. I support the rule of law. I believe in the principle of consent and I believe in democracy.

IRA or UDA... it makes no difference

Don't just lecture us, don't just tell us what to do. Work out how you can help. Demonstrate your willingness to move forward.

Beats me why the, on their terms, disenfranchised 'voiceless' loyalist underclass, isn't venting its collective spleen against the chancers who come knocking their doors looking for, and in large measure sadly getting, their votes.

Bart it is the same at EVERY interface - the Protestant side looks like a war zone; whereas there are few (if any) boarded up houses. Victor I was using the census stats to disprove your fantasy that the SS is a mixed area.
Regarding the elderly sisters they have been attacked NUMEROUS times by violent Republicans from the SS - STOP PEADLING THE LIE THAT IT WAS LOYALISTS!

Have you ever wondered why Protestants have left Belfast and west of the Bann in their droves?? Protestants prefer to live in mainly Protestant areas because in the past an influx of Catholics in the area has meant trouble. Ask yourself why do Prods keep moving out of areas that become increasingly Catholic????

Moderate I agree 100%. Republicans never seem to see the bigger picture. They think it is great to stop an OO parade but fail to see the wider long term repercussions. I have never heard any Republican's view of OO parades in a united Ireland context. "Just keep them to your own areas" is the cry. Well that is stuff of partitionists now isn't it??? Coupled with the sectarian RC schooling system it all makes a good case for cultural aparthied.

"Have you ever wondered why Protestants have left Belfast and West of the Bann......?

Antrim Springfarm

Look at the United States for many examples of 'white flight' to the surburbs. Could it be true that unionists dislike Catholics to such an extent that they refuse to live with them.

Yet another explanation for what's happening is given when one compares houseprices. The nationalist population is expanding and rising in social status. Hence one good economic reason for population movement, and there are others.

Up until a very few years ago the comparative wealth of East Belfast was mentioned by several commentators and attributed to the number of Protestants in state jobs.

The Equality Commission have noted that those lower and mid-level jobs are now being taken by candidates from the nationalist community as the unionists retire. In fact this decade will mean that Catholics are moving into senior posts in ever larger numbers.

Ten years ago the East was prosperous but it only took a few days to reduce it to a warzone and reveal the social changes of the last ten years.

Unionists need to rebuild their community - not to cling to the mistakes of the past.

Antrim Springfarm

"is the same at EVERY interface"

That whole paragraph is easily rubbished.

You are just a liar, pure and simple

Over the past 35-40 years Cathoilics have been intimidated out of their homes in Belfast and all over Northern Ireland in their thousands, as you and everybody else well knows.

You do yourself and unionism no favours with your braindead loyalist propaganda.

"I can state quite catagorically the vast majority of Short Strand residents support the McCartneys in their campaign"

Are you for real!!!!! so what better way to support the campaign than to vote for SF/IRA - the enemies of Robert.
First they said "Oh it was just a bar-room scuffle - he was killed by a thug". Then after pressure they had to 'admit' SF/IRA were involved in some shape or form.

Deborah Devenny's main mandate was to get rid of Mountpottinger PSNI station. So the PSNI is unacceptable? You'd prefer the SF/IRA approach then? NO JUSTICE

AS: you are a numbskull of magnificent proportions there have been absolutely no lies on my behalf with respect to the McLaughlin sisters(thats thier name by the way)Loyalist bigots burned these two elderly protestant ladys from thier home.

Have you ever wondered why Protestants have left Belfast and west of the Bann in their droves?? Protestants prefer to live in mainly Protestant areas because in the past an influx of Catholics in the area has meant trouble. Ask yourself why do Prods keep moving out of areas that become increasingly Catholic????

This one is easily answered, they can't have a Fenian about the place, as pointed out earlier, though it seems AS your unable to comprehend, and contrary to popular belief Protestants, live,work and socialise in the Short Strand and other predominately Catholic areas, tell me doe's the same apply in Protestant ares, I think not.I stated The Short Strand has a number of Protestant inhabitants I hardly think that implies a mixed area in the common sense of the term, your playing with words, just like the OO condone or condemn Cé Acu Is Fearr Leat?

Deborah Devenny's main mandate was to get rid of Mountpottinger

And build much needed housing on the vacated space, it is after all virtually unmanned so are you suggesting it should stay there at all costs.

So the PSNI is unacceptable?

It seems they are unacceptable to both sections of our community, what do you think?
I don't think anyone has ever been given a vote on the IRA, and yes Sinn Fein do pretty well given thier social and economic policys and background in the community are highly attractive to the populace within the Strand.

harland and wolff and shorts employ a smaller fraction of people than before, that is why the people in east belfast are broke and self esteem is at an all time low, life doesnt get handed to you, go find it and stop moaning

Until someone of some intelligence explains equality (not donaldson!!!!) to the working class prod then they will be left behind!!!

Following the numerous comments on this issue doubting my account of events I can only say the following. I was there. I know what i saw and heard. I stand by every word.

brian

The people in East Belfast as in other unionist areas are having to share jobs in manufacturing and the security industry just as those jobs are disappearing.

They are being hit with a double whammy, although as is noted in today's papers, they are still getting more than their fair share in most areas.

The problem for unionists is that they used to get ALL the cake and now have to share it.

Alex did you see all of this from inside the UUP offices? Alex did you see masked Loyalists from your vantage point?

"AS: you are a numbskull of magnificent proportions.."

VICTOR1 I guess you don't know the differnce between playing the man and playing the ball.

I know what you call the old ladies. I can read. It was Republicans who attacked them.

As the census data ouput shows from my above post - 6 out of 275 doesn't really mean there are lots of Prods about the SS. They were all mostly put out.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN HOW THE SS HAS WENT FROM AROUND 40% CATHOLIC TO 97% CATHOLIC???? Hardly a welcome place for Prods.

Oh yes to answer your point about no Catholics being allowed to live on the N'ards rd. Well I thought I'd show you a census output covering Dee ST (now you can't get more 'unionist' than there).

postcodes:
BT4 1FB, BT4 1FT, BT4 1GB, BT4 1GD, BT4 1GG, BT4 1GH, BT4 1GJ, BT4 1HN, BT4 1HR, BT4 1SX

Catholic 13
Protestant and Other Christian (Including Christian Related) 260

So there you have it - more than 2 times the number the opposite way in the 'warm house for Prods' SS.

PLEASE LOOK UP THE CENSUS DATA BEFORE YOU EMBARRESS YOURSELF FURTHER

You have not tackled any of my points but instead have resorted to childish name-calling. SHAME ON YOU!
Yes I support the PSNI 100%. I respect law and order. Do you?

I don't think that SF have done much for the McCartney's.

I recon a vote for SF is an endorsement for the IRA. Don't you?

"Ask yourself why do Prods keep moving out of areas that become increasingly Catholic????"

...suspicion, sectarian bigotry and hatred?

Much the same with US whites moving out of areas when a black family moves in.

Ever hear of the phrase "There goes the neighbourhood"?

I recon a vote for SF is an endorsement for the IRA. Don't you?

NO I DON'T!

Yes I support the PSNI 100%.NO I DON'T

respect law and order. Do you?

YES I DO!

PLEASE LOOK UP THE CENSUS DATA BEFORE YOU EMBARRESS YOURSELF FURTHER The census data I have already responded to this in an earlier post and stand by what I stated then!

CAN YOU EXPLAIN HOW THE SS HAS WENT FROM AROUND 40% CATHOLIC TO 97% CATHOLIC????

Explain NO! hazard a guess albiet an educated one, they can't have a Catholic about them so they up sticks and left!

VICTOR1, so SF are not the IRA? I won't even give that a response as it is so ridiculous. Martin and Gerry were never members of the IRA.

As you can see from the Census data - DEE ST accomodates more than twice the number that the SS accomodates. How does that square with your 'Not a fenian about the place' rationale???

Q. Why are Protestants 'British'
A. Because want to be the opposite of what the Republican movement is

DON'T YOU KNOW THIS??? We have no real love for the English. We are simply a product of social conditioning which has set us at the polar extreme of Nationalism.

"DON'T YOU KNOW THIS??? We have no real love for the English. We are simply a product of social conditioning which has set us at the polar extreme of Nationalism."

You are nationalists...you are British nationalists, that's why you love to be surrounded by 20,000 Union Jacks at any given point in time.

The Short Strand has been a Catholic enclave under sectarian attack since the nineteenth century.

Goole Belfast history short strand

or

http://timelines/ni/belfast/riots.shtml

O dear another slap for the plods --and from an ex plod!!

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/letters/story.jsp?story=661520

Just as well the RA is standing down -looks as if the PSNI are going to have enough to do with the prod

Lib, the Short Strand in NOT UNDER SEIGE AND NEVER HAS BEEN. It is laughable to say it is under seige. Cluan Place however is under seige.

A community under siege does not shoot 5 innocent Protestants, some of whom were BOARDING UP THEIR HOMES AFTER BEING ATTACKED by violent Catholics.

Tell me how many Catholic homes are lying empty in the SS?? How many Protestant homes are empty?
I think you are in denial.

But we are glad the security gate is up - this will help stop the Catholic violence.

The security gate since it went up has only served to hide the Loyalist cowards from launching attacks, this was clearly seen on video when a catholic family came under pipe bomb attack and had the opportunity to capture the scene from thier loft!

A community under siege does not shoot 5 innocent Protestants

Your right a community under siege defends itself from the murderous onslaught and uses arms when nescessary to repel those attackers, one of whom was a leading Loyalist paramilitary and has been for many many years, I could name him by the way, but he claims to be a community worker now!
Back on the empty homes theme again AS, getting a little repetitive now eh, well I'll address that issue one more time shall I, Loyalist paramilitary protection racketeering keeps builders from renovating these homes, therefore they become uninhabital therefore they lie empty! Also housing shortage is at a premium in catholic areas given that they can only live in catholic districts, unlike Protestants who can happily live in Catholic areas without fear of persecution.

I wish to write in support of Alex Benjamin like him i was also there not as a rioter but as a local resident everything he says is correct thank he has the courage to tell the truth.

"uses arms when nescessary to repel those attackers.."

I CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT I JUST READ ABOVE!!!!!!

VICTOR1 I am amazed you can be so blatant about your support of terrorism. Your extremist views are astonding.

You call shooting unarmed (teenage) boys in the back, men shot whilst boarding up their homes and a cross-community worker shot whilst trying to talk some sense into the youths DEFENDING YOUR COMMUNITY???

Do all the Catholics on this forum share this analysis??

VICTOR I gave you the census figures and yet you still continue to argue about catholics not being welcome in Protestant areas. Why would you argue with the independent census figures???

Your fantasy story about UDA protection rackets preventing homes being re-built in Madrid St is a joke - CONSIDERING THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL H.E. REDEVELOPMENT ROUND THE CORNER AT LORD ST which the UDA haven't stopped. Or maybe they just didn't feel like stopping that project this time around. What a joke.

Mick I think VICTOR has stepped over the line here advocating that people should take up arms. Can HE/SHE not have their comments censored???

SHAME ON YOU.

What alex saw was a peacful protest attacked first of all by nationalists within the Short Strand which was watched by the P.S.N.I for several minutes before they deployed officers. The protesters where then pushed along the Albertbridge Road by the P.S.N.I who then used access force agaisnt women and children, as the day went on it was obvious that the police officers where getting heavy handed towards anyone in the area. ie baton rounds used agaisnt young children, a gun put to the head of a 70yr old lady outside her own home, people beaten to the ground and then attacked, the list goes on but these are just a few. So i applaud Alex for making his comments and hope that other people would take a note out of his book and start telling the truth.

Absolutley stand over all I stated, you again are trying to play with words, nowhere in my above post have I advocated the support of Terrorism, defending ones home can hardly be pronounced as terrorism. The community worker was and is a leading Loyalist Paramilitary hardly an innocent bystander, the others were at the time attacking the homes in Clandeboye estate with pipe bombs,petrol bombs and whatyever other assorted weaponary they managed to get thier hands on, that is the reason they were shot, I know that I live here!!
Are you saying the UDA don't run protection rackets against builders now if theres a joker in here I feel it must be your good self!!!
Back to the old censureship call again, I remeber that has been tried and tested didn't work before maybe you would like to silence me as you CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH.

What alex saw was a peacful protest attacked first of all by nationalists within the Short Strand which was watched by the P.S.N.I for several minutes before they deployed officers. The protesters where then pushed along the Albertbridge Road by the P.S.N.I who then used access force agaisnt women and children, as the day went on it was obvious that the police officers where getting heavy handed towards anyone in the area. ie baton rounds used agaisnt young children, a gun put to the head of a 70yr old lady outside her own home, people beaten to the ground and then attacked, the list goes on but these are just a few. So i applaud Alex for making his comments and hope that other people would take a note out of his book and start telling the truth.

What alex saw was a peacful protest attacked first of all by nationalists within the Short Strand which was watched by the P.S.N.I for several minutes before they deployed officers. The protesters where then pushed along the Albertbridge Road by the P.S.N.I who then used access force agaisnt women and children, as the day went on it was obvious that the police officers where getting heavy handed towards anyone in the area. ie baton rounds used agaisnt young children, a gun put to the head of a 70yr old lady outside her own home, people beaten to the ground and then attacked, the list goes on but these are just a few. So i applaud Alex for making his comments and hope that other people would take a note out of his book and start telling the truth.

The Catholic gunman was seeing dancing on the roof of the houses after he took pot shots at innocent people. The were boarding up houses at the time of the shooting!!!.I know the community leader and can also name him (how impressive!).

I can't believe you would support this. Notice how no-one else of this forum is backing you up? They are also ashamed of your extreme views.

I fully support the right of those under attack to defend themselves, that is what happened in this case. I seem to remeber a farmer in England shooting a thief who broke into his home and posed a threat to him and his family, same thing he defended himself with the use of arms as he was under attack,,,,was that TERRORISM?
as for no one backing me, i'm not here to gain support or backing I state what I feel without duplicity, do you?

cluan place

Do you think that hundreds of masked loyalists heading towards a catholic area could be seen as being threatening.

Why were many of them armed with cudgels ?

Just out walking the dog officer !!!!!

Victor1
"I fully support the right of those under attack to defend themselves"

So the UVF and UDA attacks over the years "to defend themselves" are OK??

Don`t think so --but what`s sauce for the goose...

In responce to lunar's comments posted on September 12th, i totally disagree with your remarks , as i too was present and witnessed exactly the same scences as alex benjamin. Mabey the people of Short Strand should shoulder some of the blame, as we were holding a peaceful protest just like the residents of Short Strand have done on many occassions. We were attacked with a barrage or bricks bottles, stones, sledgehammers, and many other objects. The residents of Short Strand were prepared as they were able to walk around with hurley sticks and golf clubs, whilst all we wanted to do was show people that we have a culture too. If you can't understand the importance of tolerance and mutul respect this society is indeed in difficulty.

In responce to lunar's comments posted on September 12th, i totally disagree with your remarks , as i too was present and witnessed exactly the same scences as alex benjamin. Mabey the people of Short Strand should shoulder some of the blame, as we were holding a peaceful protest just like the residents of Short Strand have done on many occassions. We were attacked with a barrage or bricks bottles, stones, sledgehammers, and many other objects. The residents of Short Strand were prepared as they were able to walk around with hurley sticks and golf clubs, whilst all we wanted to do was show people that we have a culture too. If you can't understand the importance of tolerance and mutul respect this society is indeed in difficulty.

Sarah I as a resident of the Short Strand know full well the tolerance and mutual respect Loyalists in East Belfast show the residents of that district, residents like John McKay who in the early hours of sat morning before your so called peaceful protest, was beaten near to death by those very same pillars of our society! Tell me do Sarah how far from your home did you travel to be attacked by the Short Strand residents? also Sarah did you see any of the 700 masked Loyalists who attacked the PSNI for hours on end,robbed local shops,ripped a bank machine from its wall, fired shots,petrol bombs,pipe bombs,blast bombs and all manner of weapons? Were the peaceful protestors armed and ready for battle or was this just an after affect of police brutality. Sarah point the finger by all means, but at least try to be honest while pointing, are the Loyalists of East Belfast as blameless as the Orange Order for the mayhem that ensued or is it that Republicans hatched a secret plot to lull the poor Loyalist community into doing their dirty work, condone or condemn seems it doesn't matter to the Orange they don't know the difference!

Really have to laugh at some of the comments on here about the letter by Alex Benjamin, a lot of you seem very quick to dismiss what he has said. Now tell me how many of you were actually there and saw what did or didnt happen? Yeah just a few, as for the rest who all seem to want to put down Alex letter i think you would better to remain silent about something you know nothing about. Far too many people are telling the same story of Psni brutality, are they all lying? I wonder. Personally i wasnt there so i cant say either way but what i do know is from personal experience and not related in anyway to the recent trouble is that the current Police force can only be described as a joke some of its officers are arrogant bastards, that are not one bit interested in solving crime but much happier generally harassing people going about their daily business. As i have said in a previous post on this site. How many convictions is there against those who attack and rob the elderly? How many convictions since the murder of Lisa Dorrian or Mr McCartney. To much paper work I fear

Having read most of the posts I am disappointed to note that no-one has comment on the lack of DUP condemnation of the "riots". Mr Paisley and his cohorts were not so slow to make their voices heard in the '70's - makes one wonder who really is behind the violence!!!

A good point Bigfoot, not only Paisley, but where is Peter Robinson? Sammys in the nude Willson? and co, by the way that other great leader of Unionism Reggy has made a belated condemnation today though that was after meeting the Brits Peter Haine, so maybe he goot his knuckles wrapped.

I have not as yet seen any unionist politican, not one, condemn either the UDA or UVF by name though they seem to have no trouble condemning everybody else. Maybe it's just an unfortumate coincidence but I can't help remembering a certain paramilitary figure explaining that he 'knew the colour of the wallpaper' in a lot of front rooms.

SF have never once condemned the IRA violence so why should anyone need condemn the violence at the weekend?

The DUP & UUP claim to be democrats, thats the difference

Are SF not democratically elected? After all they always bang on about their mandate if anyone tries to chastised them for their wrong-doings.

Lib, incase you didn't know...but I will let you into a little secret..the big man and the organisations don't really get on...shushhh..

Victor1
Do you think there is any chance of reconcilliation between the prods and catholics at any time in the future?

As far as I am aware Protestants and Catholics get on together all over Ireland, I doubt the handful of Neanderthals that are trolling our streets at the minute would even know the meaning of reconcilliation though one lives in hope.

Moderate Unionist : Further to your question may I add, I feel the real problem here is lack of Unionist Leadership, Unionism doesn't have the confidence to argue a case, as there is no case to put forward. Look at the recent few days, asked what the rioting was about, and we heard,,,,,"Sean Kellys release" "The RIR disbandment" "Social infrastucture" "nobody listens to Unionism" There is only one reason and they haven't figured it, no confidence in thier elected representatives, Unionism is led by fear where by Nationalsim is led by confidence, led to an agenda Nationalism has a focus, Unionists don't know what they want. It's time Unionism stopped saying NO and got involved in a political process and put thier case forward. How on earth can anyone listen to Polititions who stand outside the political process screaming NO Surrender!

I have to respond to Victor 1's comments.

I live in Stormount Street and didn't have to travel further than my garden gate.

I was appallled at the violence in my area, although i don't condemn it and i don't condone it, it is completely understandable.

Protestants in this area and indeed throughout Northern Ireland feel undermined and feel thier culture and heritage is being slowly but surley taken away from them.

I also cant understand how the residents of Short Strand were able to gather prepared and attack the peacful if unlawful protest at the Albertbridge.

Their reaction is in stark contrast to the events of last year when they themselves mounted a peaceful protest in almost exactly the same spot, which was not the subject of an attack by their Protestant neighbours.

We ask no more than the rights of normal citizens the right to live in peace, with the knowledge that our sense of identity, citzenship and culture is acknowledged and respected.

The fate which befell the man on the Albertbridge Road, is terrible it should not happen to anyone in a civilized society however, i am bound to say these attacks take place on an lmost nightly basis and the victimhood does belong soely to one or other community.

Well said Victor, at last some one has seen why unionists have lost their voice in N. I.

Sarah: you do not condone or condemn the violence, you really can't have it both ways Sarah if you disagree with it you condemn it if you agree you condone you say you were appalled at the violence but are unable to condemn it! That is hypocrisy Sarah.

I asked the question of you how far you had to come from your home to protest, Stormount Street Sarah is a fair bit off the Short Strand approximately half a mile. For the benefit of other bloggers Sarah would you like to tell us how you acquired the ability to see around corners and through walls, as Stormount Street is off the Albertbridge Rd behind a row of shops and offices, is it not ?

I also cant understand how the residents of Short Strand were able to gather prepared and attack the peacful if unlawful protest at the Albertbridge.

They didn’t as it didn’t as it did not happen and as you were in your garden in Stormount Street you couldn’t possibly have witnessed any of what took place, could you?

Their reaction is in stark contrast to the events of last year when they themselves mounted a peaceful protest in almost exactly the same spot, which was not the subject of an attack by their Protestant neighbors

The protest I assume you are referring too took place off the main Rd outside the homes of residents and the parade walked pass without interference from those protesting, contrast that with the events of the weekend!

Protestants feel undermined Sarah due to lack of political leadership Sarah, Protestant culture has not is not being undermined, Would you not agree, the few contentious parades pale into insignificance in respect to the amount of parades that take place each year. How this could be undermining Protestant culture, unless of course those parades mean little to Protestants and the only ones that count are those that offend!

We ask no more than the rights of normal citizens the right to live in peace, with the knowledge that our sense of identity, citzenship and culture is acknowledged and respected.

As do we Sarah, as do we!

Victor & Bigfoot
Do you think it is right for you to determine who should represent us. If I were to say that republicans should not elect Gerry Adams to speak for them. What if I offered the opinion that Gerry Fitt was the leader you should have listened too. What would you say? "None of my business, perhaps?"

The current situation in Northern Ireland is the result of 7 years of foot dragging. There was a chance, but that chance has gone. Things are the way they are because people want them that way.

There is no generosity of spirit, no parity of esteem, no willingness to see the other point of view. Just a determination to capture short term political advantage. Enjoy, you have your whole life ahead of you and things will still be same at the end of it.

As for new leadership, people saw what happened to Trimble

Moderate Unionist: I certainly don't wish to determine who represents you; I am clear though that those whom you elected do NOT! I agree fully with your assertion that the chance we had has gone and was as you quite rightly state down to foot dragging, can I just point out what I believe that foot dragging to be, We had at the beginning Unionists demands that the IRA say the war is over, we then move to decommissioning it begins, is that it do we get the process going again, no decommissioning isn’t decommissioning without verification(I thought there was an independent body to verify) then it was Pictures of decommissioning and all the time Unionist politicians were standing outside the political process, voted on, and agreed to, by the vast majority on these Islands, obstacle after obstacle, why because they wanted to keep the status quo a non equal society were, Unionists dictated the agenda.
Talk of equality is a two way Street, take a simple issue like the funding of a St Patrick’s Day parade in Belfast, Unionists vote overwhelmingly to refuse funding to a large section of the community to celebrate a very strong important cultural event, and in the same breath vote to fund 11th night bonfires in Belfast. Take the issue of the maysfield leisure centre, Unionist voted on a sectarian basis, to build a new leisure centre and a bridge to allow Catholics to access it(we may have to were armbands by then) when all in sundry know that the maysfield site has been the most successful cross community leisure centre in Belfast and beyond! Your political representatives play politics on sectarian grounds, take the NO word out of politics and Mr. Paisley and co would be nothing more than loud mouthed nobodies!
People like yourself Moderate Unionist need to step up to the mark with forward thinking (as it seems to me you have) it’s time to get rid of the politics of NO, Unionist worked on the GFA and came to agreement, others sat outside and shouted NO, Traitors, but to date have produced no alternative! I am glad the IRA has ended their campaign, I am glad Sinn Fein and the SDLP have forward thinking politicians to speak on behalf of nationalism. What has Unionism to fear from the political process EQUALITY?

Moderate Unionist/Sarah could either of you(or any other Unionist) point out where you feel Unionists/Protestants culture/heritage or lack of parity stems from, I would be very interested to know. Thanks

Victor 1

Your comment that the peaceful if unlawful protest on the Albertbridge Road was not attacked by the Nationalists from the Short Stran was incorrect.

Should you require confirmation please feel free to telephone Chief Insoector Mike Ellis on 0289065022 ask for Strandtown and i am sure he will be able to confirm that the protest mounted on the Albertbridge Road and the Police Officers present on the scene together with their collegues from The Royal Irish indured a sustained attack from Nationalist residents which resulted in the admission of an elderly gentleman to hospital with a fractured skull.
Two young people threw back approximately 47 mins after the first stone was thrown by the nationalsits and were restrained by the remainder of the peaceful protest.
As i have said Nationalists blocked the same road prior to last years Whiterock deterimnation which on that occassion found in favour of the Orangemen and they did not indure any attacks from their Protestant neighbours.

Sarah:
As I live here in Short Strand I have no need to seek evidence from anyone regarding the facts with respect to what happened at the weekend, and continues to happen as we speak! Your assertion two young men threw back 47mins after peaceful protestors were attacked, does nothing for your credibility! On top of that your claims to be in your garden some distance from the events also show your comments to be some distance from the truth. The pictures in the media speak volumes on how much trust we can put in your comments at this moment in time! Hopefully you will catch yourself on stop being evasive and come to realize, that Loyalist were responsible for the mayhem, certainly and I am in no position to deny, nationalist from the Short Strand were rioting with the police and that was wrong, on that same vein though Nationalist community workers were at the forefront of trying to stop them, most of them were young teenagers, and carried on regardless, did the same apply to the peaceful Protestant protestors?
By the way Sarah, any chance you could address some of the points I made in my last two points?

Victor 1, i feel i must speak up for sarah here. The re is no doubt that loyalists REACTED following the attack on the peaceful protest from the short strand, the sitaution was exacerbated by the heavy handed response by the police who treated the agitators and instigators from your community with kid gloves but came in heavy on those who were forced to react following the provocation and follwoing this heavy handedness (the very point i was trying to ake in my original post!!!), you can cast doubt on our accounts but i really fell no reason to fabricate stories to make a political point, in fact the point i was tryi ng to make was not political at all, merely to highlight how the police handled a sensitive situation atrociously.

To answer your question on where the lack of parity comes from, the answer is simple - government. The way the government bends over backwards to help republicans, is prepared to write off robberies, murders, gansterism and terrorist records, the way they are prepared to facilitate the ochestrated republican objective of eradicating every vestige of protestant and/or british culture from Northern Ireland and pour millions into the Irish language when more people here speak mandarin or cantonese is proof enough. to answer your point on forward thinking: I think even you could admit that the UUP was more than prepared to engage in forward thinking and try to reach accomodation. But when those with whom you negotiate, stall, prevaricate, renege on arrangements, continue to hold on a private army despite a commitment to exclusively peaceful and emocartic means and repeatedly refuse to stretch themselves, well frankly your ardour and enthusiasm for them quickly evaporates

Victor
To every action there is a reaction. When people feel under threat whether real or imagined they adopted a defensive position. It is virtually impossible to shift people when they are in this mode. If you really want to move things forward you must find ways of providing comfort and reassurance to the other side.

The real problem for the protestant working classes is that globalisation has destroyed their employment prospects and thus their independence and self respect. 30 years of civil war has meant that Northern Ireland as missed out on the multinational bonanza that the south enjoyed. We do not have and will never have corporation tax at 12.5% the real source of the South's tiger economy. Nor will the south be able to resist the forces of globalisation. Education is the only way forward, but if you live in a community where it is easier to make money out of state benefits than to the real world why should you bother.

With regard to equality. The republican side has largely seen a rise in living standards as the public sector has grown, whilst the unionists have seen a decline as traditional industries have declined. This is nobody's fault but it does explain attitudes. In such circumstances people look to the past as the glory days (and this is not about supremacy).

It is my view the marches should be allowed only in areas where they are non contenious, but and this is a big but, when you get situations like drumcree where the unionists agreed not to walk through the tunnel provided the could walk down the Garvahy Rd. When this is then rescinded it looks like (and is) negoitating in bad faith.

It was never clear if republicans really wanted to find a solution or just advance their aims.

We do not want to enter a United Ireland, Republicans are insisting that this will happen. No deal.

Republicans have nobody left to negoitate with and have only themselves to blame. I doubt if it will worry you greatly.

alex benjamin :

I asked the question of you with respect to the masked men(police reported up to 700 men on the Albertbridge Rd, nowhere in your account (which is highly dubious considering you were IN the UUP offices) have you mentioned them, why not?

Are you concurring with Sarah’s account? 47 minutes after a peaceful protest was attacked by Nationalists, two Loyalist youths threw back, come on Alex, you seem to be an intelligent person but you do yourself and more importantly your community a disservice by ignoring the truth and the facts.

To answer your question on where the lack of parity comes from, the answer is simple - government.

Would this be the British government, whom Unionists aspire to?

is prepared to write off robberies, murders, gansterism and terrorist records

Was it just Republicans who benefited from this? Tell me Alex what your reaction to the UVFs continuing murder campaign is and your government’s lack of response? The intimidation in Garnerville, should the police have reacted to the UVF in the same way or do as they done on Sat past?

they are prepared to facilitate the ochestrated republican objective of eradicating every vestige of protestant and/or british culture from Northern Ireland

Would you like to produce some evidence of this eradication? There are well over 3000 parades every year. Less than 1 per cent is contentious, is this eradication of orange culture? As for the Irish language issue, here again brings the question of parity, I and most Nationalist have no problem with the funding of Ulster Scots, more power to those who speak it, actively promote it, and actively seek funding for it, but, and here is the issue I pointed out earlier with respect to political leadership, Sinn Fein and the SDLP actively sought funding for the Irish language, it is high policy within both nationalist parties, do the Unionist parties show the same commitment to Ulster Scots? Irish language pre-schools and primary schools are now thriving and there are Irish language secondary schools in Belfast, Armagh, and Derry, pupils at these schools are doing exceptionally well.

And yes I do admit the UUP got involved in the political process, but were always looking over their shoulder at the DUP, (read Newton Emerson’s article there’s a link on slugger somewhere).

But when those with whom you negotiate, stall, prevaricate, renege on arrangements, continue to hold on a private army despite a commitment to exclusively peaceful and emocartic means and repeatedly refuse to stretch themselves,

I addressed this issue earlier, but just to restate, the Unionist political parties continuously moved the hurdle with respect to the IRA and their commitments, and carried out an act of decommissioning that I think even astounded John De Chastelain, but to Unionism it meant little. Unionist politicians continuously tell the Unionist people that they are on the verge of loosing everything, but do little to fight for what they perceive to be lost.

By the way Alex, I am quite sure Sarah is capable of replying herself as she has done in a number of posts to date!

Moderate Unionist
I thank you for an honest and genuine reply most of which I agree with by the way.

We do not want to enter a United Ireland, Republicans are insisting that this will happen. No deal.

so your telling me Republicans are not entitled to aspire to a United Ireland! I do not have a problem with your aspiration to remain British but I do wish to change your mind through a process of negotiation.

With regard to equality. The republican side has largely seen a rise in living standards as the public sector has grown, whilst the unionists have seen a decline as traditional industries have declined. This is nobody's fault but it does explain attitudes. In such circumstances people look to the past as the glory days (and this is not about supremacy).

This is someone’s fault though, if Unionist parties had represented their people rather than the NEVER/NO politics then those industries might well be still here, otherwise they should have been dealing with educational issues, the problem is the Unionist political parties are so out of touch with the electorate they have no need to represent them, a few sound bytes from a loud mouth doe’s little for the people on the ground!

but if you live in a community where it is easier to make money out of state benefits than to the real world why should you bother.

I really don’t believe you stated that, and take it from your remarks you have never had to survive on state benefits! Thank you again for your reply.

Victor 1,

yes there were masked men, they appeared following the impotent police reaction to the short strand provocation and when the police decided to storm the albertbridge road as far as templemore avenue. i was in the UUP offices but ventured out in the street on a couple of times to observe the situation,(until such times as it was no longer safe to do so. Yes i concur with the broad thrust of sarah's account although i couldn't be categoric on timings. To deal with some of your points:

We aspire to remaining British, we don't aspire to any Government in the same way you probably aspire to a United Ireland and not the incumbent government.

Yes primarily it was republicans who benefited from this as they have a large mandate and could have formed part of an administration/government has they not been so obstinate in their refusal to let go of the IRA and on-going gangsterism. I hate paramilitaries of any persuasion, and loyalist ones in particular leave me ice-cold.I will not defend their actions or their behaviour in the past, present or indeed future.

The difficulty is that every parade to a ntionalist is contentious. there is zero tolerance for any expression of orange or british culture, i mean i've been to gaelic matches, i don't care that near where i live there are gelic flags up or that people want to be Irish. I respect diversity and difference but i find your community less than tolerant and indeed bordering on fascist, and i say that as a Jew with full understanding of cultural fascism!

re newton's piece- the fact that a columnist from NI's nationalist newspaper critiques the leadership of the UUP is hardly a matter for surprise or, indeed, regret.

The advice proffered by the Irish News - for the UUP to abandon loyalist areas - would hand these areas over to the paramilitaries. Strange advice from a paper that lauded Hume's overtures to Republicans in the early 90s. Abdication by the UUP in loyalist areas would do nothing to promote peace and stability in NI.

That the Irish News is unwilling to accurately or fully quote UUP press releases is, of course, hardly surprising. The Ulster Unionist leadership has been unambiguous in its complete opposition to the violence. Sir Reg's first statement responding to the situation, began by declaring: "First, we must state clearly that whatever reasons may be advanced for the causes of what happened, there is no excuse for shootings, blast and petrol bomb attacks". The Deputy Leader of the Assembly Party, Danny Kennedy MLA, stated: "there is no justification for the disturbances and reckless and violence we have witnessed in Northern Ireland over the past number of evenings". Leader of the UUP group on Belfast City Council, Cllr David Browne, stated: "there is no excuse for the violence we have witnessed in Belfast's streets in recent days". All of these statements have been available on the Party website and were distributed to all media outlets in Northern Ireland

According to Emerson, however, this is 'equivocation'... a clear case of not letting the facts getting in the way of another anti-unionist column in the Irish News.

lastly, the fact that you refer to a 'hurdle' when talking about IRA decommissioning speaks volumes. it meant little to Unionism because we could not see it, feel it or get the sense that it changed anything. I've been involved since 1999, talks after talks, your politrical representatives have done nothing to reach out...what are we supposed to be garteful that the IRA are no longer beating and shooting and murdering the army and police and blowing us up???

Yes, sarah can spaek for herself, believe me i've been on the end of her verbal lashings from time to time lol...

victor1
Nope never been on benefits, but I did grow up in a 750 sq.ft semi and went to a grammar school courtesy of the 11+.

My problem is not with tacking social deprivation (by giving people benefits) which I think that it should be on a similar basis to that when we give aid to Africa. (Don't just send them food show them how to dig wells - and stop the war. Obviously, you have to deal with short term emergencies but this should not become the norm.)

Thank you for your considered response. BTW The basis of all long term settlements is trust and there isn't much about. In fact the last seven years have destroyed what little trust there was.

Alex,

Is the following statement from you a deliberate lie or genuine error?

'pour millions into the Irish language when more people here speak mandarin or cantonese is proof enough'

You integrity has been questioned already. Following up with falsehood isn't making you seem like a person that posts the truth and only the truth.

It doesn't prove anything when it's fiction. Other than the contributor is wrong or a liar.

I must challenge Alex Benjamine's account of the events surrounding the disturbances on the Albertbridge road on Saturday afternoon last.

I posted a comment earlier in this thread regarding my personal account of what i witnessed, as a passing motorist, on the afternoon in question.

"I witnessed around 200 loyalists approaching the Albertbridge road from the Ravenhill road on saturday afternoon. This is nowhere near the orange hall, so i can only presume that these protesters were not part of the same group which Alex Benjamin is describing.

The majority of this group were masked, some with scarves tied round their faces and others wearing balaclavas.

Many were carrying sticks and a different assortment of cudgels.

I'm amazed that these people can be described as protesters.It looked more like a mob to me.

Trouble had not started at this point, so i was able to drive on past the area, prior to the trouble."

As i had posted above, many of those who i witnessed approaching the junction were masked and carried various cudgels.This is a fact which i witnessed myself.There were no disturbances at this point in time,so Alex's recollections of the opening events are claerly confused.

It is indicitave of a polarised society, when untruths are built on untruths to push for personal political advantage.

It is very sad, indeed

Alex:

So you expect us to believe these masked men appeared from nowhere after police decided to storm the Albertbridge road as far as Templemore Avenue, who were the police storming at Alex? May I suggest it was the said masked men who came along to peacefully protest, armed and prepared to wreak havoc!

Alex, you were in the UUP offices and ventured out to observe, nothing wrong with that now, but how on earth did you observe what was happening at the Short Strand from the area of the Albertbridge Rd were the UUP offices are? They are nearly a half a mile from the corner of the Short Strand/Albertbridge, again like Sarah have you x-ray vision can you see through walls and around bends? Tell me Alex, were you at the corner of Short Strand /Albertbridge, if so why? What on earth had the Short Strand got to do with this peaceful protest? Surely if Unionists wanted to hold a peaceful protest they would have done so outside the UUP offices or at the corner of Templemore Avenue/Albertbridge Rd, don’t you think Alex?

We aspire to remaining British, we don't aspire to any Government in the same way you probably aspire to a United Ireland and not the incumbent government.

A mute point, having said that I would like to think I could respect the Government of my country, and I wouldn’t mind becoming part of that government it would be one of my aspirations.

The difficulty is that every parade to a ntionalist is contentious.

Not true Alex let me quote you from the Orange Orders own site

There are well over 3000 parades every year. Less than 1 per cent result in trouble of any kind.

30 parades out of 3000 hardly constitutes EVERY parade, besides the Orange orders refusal to get involved in dialogue claiming they do not engage with terrorists hardly stands to reason, when they are involved with the North and West Belfast Parades and Cultural group a group consisting of UVF/UDA members, both of whose members are still involved in murder and violence, hardly consistent now is it?

Let me also quote from Reg Empeys statement:

The government knew on Friday that there was going to be serious violence coming from paramilitary elements. The police knew this also. Unfortunately those of us who attempted to defuse the situation surrounding the Whiterock parade got little or no encouragement or support in attempting to amend the Parades Commission's determination.

We see here, how Mr. Empey works, if we don’t get our way there WILL be violence, nowhere and at no time prior to the violence did Reg condemn the threat of violence instead he tried to use it as a bargaining tool! He states “It is no longer dialogue that matters, it is outcomes.” The violence happened because the Orange Order did not get the outcome they wished! Again Reg states “This now places absolute vetoes in the hands of those who object to parades.” So does Reg prefer an Orange veto? The parade commission is an independent body, set up by the British Government to try and bring some reason to the parades issue, I know Nationalists don’t agree with all the decisions they come too, but surely that would suggest the commission do have a neutral agenda.

Lastly I did not intend to refer to decommissioning as a hurdle to minimize the issue, I was merely pointing out that time after time, the reasons Unionists gave to avoid implementing the full Good Friday Agreement changed from week to week. As far as I am concerned the IRA are going away and I am delighted that Republicans feel conditions are right to put away the gun I would like Loyalists to do likewise, and get involved in politics, as that is the only way out of the quagmire. I look forward also to Sarah’s considered reply!

MU:

"Republicans have nobody left to negoitate with and have only themselves to blame. I doubt if it will worry you greatly."

I strongly disagree. Republicans have the British and Irish governments to negotiate with, and as we all know they are the ones who actually call the shots in this place. I've got no doubt whatsoever that unionist intransigence will ultimately lead to joint authority by the back door and will simply erode any sympathy unionists might have elsewhere in the UK.

The problems caused by globalization are being experienced right across the UK and Europe, they are not restricted to the Protestant parts of Belfast. I don't want to get into whataboutery or try to diminish the problems that exist in the blackspots of loyalist Belfast, but many of the largest unemployment blackspots - such as much of west of the Bann - are heavily nationalist. The hit in the textile industry has been heavily concentrated around places like Derry and Strabane.

I'm completely against giving any kind of recognition to, or having talks with, (a) people who blame the police and withdraw their support for law and order; (b) people who are rioting and who won't sit down and explain what their problem is beyond not getting their way on everything, and (c) people who refuse to talk to other elected representatives. I flatly reject the idea that violence is a newly-discovered weapon of an oppressed people forced out of politics - loyalists and unionists have been using rioting and violence to complain about "concessions" for decades.

If Sinn Fein's "equality agenda" is a sham, then the best way to expose it as such is to play their game, and enter all-party talks aimed at resolving all of these problems. It's petty, selfish and unconstructive for people to sit back and say they're not playing until they get some ambiguously-named concessions.

Well done to Alex Benjamin for having the balls to call it as he saw it on the day.

As for the Sinn Fein/SDLP press office propagandists and guilty prods who have littered this blog with bulls**t and sarcastic comments, I'm glad to see Mr Benjamin's factual eyewitness account made it into the Sunday Times yesterday free from editorial corruption.

No doubt Liam Clarke (a man who knows a thing or two about incompetent policing) acted as facilitator and wanted to publish a factual eyewitness account from a highly respected UUP Spokesman with no axe to grind.

respect.

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