Well done GAWA.

That should be well done OWC.

Cheers to Belfast.
Sorrows to Baku.

A great and well needed (not to mention overdue) result for the GAWA.

Bring on the England! ;)

That showed those azeri, roll on 2009 for the next one!!

What's seldom is wonderful!

I believe the province and the mainland are playing on wendesday night. I saw a few mainland flags there in the stadium, I wonder which team some of the province's supporters will be hurrahing for. The chants today of "We're not Brazil, we're the province" and "Stand up for the provincemen" filled my heart with pride, yet the mainland anthem came on and I got confused.
Please explain why the mainlands anthem was played for the province today, was it a premature rendition for wednesday night??

Concerned provinceman

YES! YES! GAWA! I had left my ticket at work so I had to spend another £40 on a touted ticket. £60 well spent!! A HOME VICTORY!

Beyond the jubilation 1st half was not great. 2nd half it improved. Also the England Wales result is a bit concerning after their humiliation by the Danes they are looking to give someone a spanking - considering Wales recent form I'd hoped it'd be them. I think I'll be needing my finger nails for Wednesday.

Audley

NI are the reigning British champions ;)

Excellent effort and result today. Hard earned but well deserved.

Bring on the England.
Fuck the begrudgers.

Just got home from the game.

Well done lads

Good to see the Azer fans enjoying themselves at the end, singing and dancing along to Sweet Caroline / Norn Iron

Well done lads and don't make us wait so long for the next one ;)

In the name of jeysus when are we gonna stop pretending
1) that Norn Iron ( the Pravince) are any good
2) that anyone other than a handfull of halfwits care?
Full house at Windsor 15k, live on BBC1, 82k in Croke tomorrow live on two channels,
I have not met a single person who even mentioned the pravinces match before or after
What a load of shite!!

Dove

Don't know if you've heard but -

We're not Brazil

We're Northern Ireland

But it's all the same to me :)

Slap it up ye! ;)

Seemed to be a lot of empty seats in the railway stand and at the front of parts of the North stand today.

Anyone know the attendance

Never has the phrase fuck the begrudgers been more appropriate.

Could someone explain to me why they can't contain their hatred?
Failing that, could the moderators explain why they allow the naked displays of sectarianism to remain in the thread?

Yeah Bob the railway stand wasn't full. i think the IFa usually keep it for tickets to give away to various groups. Teletext quoted 14,000 for the attendance, I would say 13 might be more like it. Couldn't see the bottom tier of the North stand, the top tier and West stand were both full, but then we had the Azers who didn't take their full allocation. Fair play to the ones who did make it tho

TAFKABO

I wouldnt begrudge Norn iron their utterly irrelevant victory over fellow no-hopers.

As they are the reigning British champions, I would imagine Rooney and co are shitting a brick at the thought of taking on the 6-county allstars on Wednesday!!!

Lads get down to Croker where 82,000 provincemen will be there supporting their local teams. 82,000. Windsor Park dream on.

And there is nothing sectarian about this post, just the facts maam. Just the facts.

Lads get down to Croker where 82,000 provincemen will be there supporting their local teams. 82,000. Windsor Park dream on.

Ta, but no ta.
A bunch of papes (with fitness levels levels lower than the Irish League for flips sake).

Or the greatest game in the world in the best atmosphere in the world.

Enjoy yourselves down there, just don't pretend it can compare with a real game.

Ta, but no ta.
A bunch of papes (with fitness levels levels lower than the Irish League for flips sake).

Entirely untrue, Tyrone or Atmagh would have superior fitness to any Irish League team.

Or the greatest game in the world in the best atmosphere in the world.

Greatest game, debatable but windsor park surely does not have the best atmosphere in the world.

While I don't want be involved in this thread getting dragged down (Fair play to NI, it was a dour unattractive game but the better team won), but to compare the fitness levels of Tyrone and Armagh to the Irish League is laughable. Gaelic football fitness levels have been taken toa different level in recent years, a comparasion with the millionaire premiership superstars is a truer reflection. And the Tyrone and Armagh alds head to work the next morning - not bad for a bunch of papes.

"A bunch of papes (with fitness levels levels lower than the Irish League for flips sake).

Or the greatest game in the world in the best atmosphere in the world.

Enjoy yourselves down there, just don't pretend it can compare with a real game"

The fitness level comment is pure ignorance. The atmosphere at the game tomorrow will be a sight to see and hear, it's amazing. At the first Tyrone-Dublin game I had goosebumps, and that was before the game even started. I'll enjoy myself 'down there' too, I wouldn't miss it for the world.

Listen.

I hope you do enjoy it, I wouldn't deny you or anyone else their fun.I just don't get why some people can't enjoy their chosen favourite sport without coming here to slag off other people who made a different choice.
If it was as great as some people suggest, then you wouldn't be so defensive.

I used to love watching football in the Big House on the Ormeau road.
Premiership on one telly, and GAA on another, most people concentrating on their favourite, a few people trying to keep an eye on both.
No hassles, everybody having a pint and a bit of craic.It is possible.

Some people here need to wise up.

I think it has to be accepted that northern ireland football attracts considerably less supporters compared to the gaa here, but the rubbish about fitness levels is a bit of a laugh.

I'm a soccer man myself, and have played on gaa size pitches around belfast and beyond over the years.

Is it just me, or are gaa pitches a lot bigger, with more ground to cover, than normal soccer pitches ?

Hey - lets stop worrying about GAA v NI football comparisons. Enjoy whatever rocks your boat.

I think it has to be accepted that northern ireland football attracts considerably less supporters compared to the gaa here, but the rubbish about fitness levels is a bit of a laugh.

I'm a soccer man myself, and have played on gaa size pitches around belfast and beyond over the years.

Is it just me, or are gaa pitches a lot bigger, with more ground to cover, than normal soccer pitches ?

I think it has to be accepted that northern ireland football attracts considerably less supporters compared to the gaa here, but the rubbish about fitness levels is a bit of a laugh.

I'm a soccer man myself, and have played on gaa size pitches around belfast and beyond over the years.

Is it just me, or are gaa pitches a lot bigger, with more ground to cover, than normal soccer pitches ?

They are bigger, because traditionally part of the field had to be used as a potato patch to feed Catholic families. Back in the 1880's when the rules were finalised, the average rural Irish family typically consisted of between 160 and 170 children.

I'm starting a book on how long this thread will run for.

less than 100 posts 6/1

101 - 299 3/1

300 - 499 4/1

500+ 5/1

get your bets in early

I'm starting a book on how long this thread will run for.

less than 100 posts 6/1

101 - 299 3/1

300 - 499 4/1

500+ 5/1

get your bets in early

Ricardo

Don't take up bookmaking as a living! I could put a tenner on all those options and be guarenteed not to lose money and would probably make a packet. Actually come to think of it, do take bookmaking up as a living! You'll be the most popular bookie in Belfast!

What can i say? I'm not a gambling man ;)

audley

are football pitches not smaller in soccer because the bonfires take up half of the pitch and take 6 months to re-grow after the 11th night.

or is it because the supporters (who come from within unionist areas) are so high on paramilitary drugs that they cannot focus on anything wider than they size of their next E tab

My hasn't this thread been revealing!

I have discovered:
People are willing to pay £40 to watch two teams outside the Top 100 in the World play a meaningless game! (Get ready for "Rip Off Norn Iron")

That there are 82k tickets already sold for today's game and yet my local newsagent which doubles as a GAA ticket outlet still has many tickets left for sale.

That GAA pitches are much bigger than football ones. Now exuse my ignorance but aren't there almost 50% more outfield players in GAA? If the pitches weren't bigger they'd just be running into one another and given the amount of "body contact" already in gaelic football, I don't think that the Mater would have enough spare beds!

Thank God that after today there are only two more Sundays of disruption for my neighbourhood, and best of luck to all the Ulster teams (who thankfully don't use my road to get to Croke Park) I'll have to introduce you to a hurling stick sometime. They don't all come with nails through them you know!

"I have not met a single person who even mentioned the pravinces match before or after"

Dove,

For someone who doesn't care, it seems odd that you take the time to post on a Norn Iron team related thread.

A monkey off our back at long last.

Yes, the opposition was very poor...I don't care!

Yes, NI are shite...I don't care!

Yes, there will be more fans at Croke Park today...I don't care!

Have a good look at the reaction of Stuart Elliot when he scored the opening goal yesterday, then look at the reaction of the GAWA.

Once you've done that Dove, come back and tell us that "only a handfull of halfwits care".

A wonderful day which I enjoyed in the company of a friend from Dublin...ROI had no game yesterday so he travelled up to Windsor to watch our game instead.

He could give you some clues as to whether it mattered or not.

Enjoy the game today...I hope it's all you hope it to be.

audley

are football pitches not smaller in soccer because the bonfires take up half of the pitch and take 6 months to re-grow after the 11th night.

or is it because the supporters (who come from within unionist areas) are so high on paramilitary drugs that they cannot focus on anything wider than they size of their next E tab

Traditionally soccer pitches in Ireland were bigger than they are today. However in 1921 HM government came in and partitioned each field, removing the northern section of each one. An orange hall was built on this section. By 1921, the size of the average irish family had reduced to less than one hundred, due to the invention of the wheel.

Richardo

You counting duplicate posts ;)
(I suffer off and on from multiple posting syndrome myself).

Well done Northern Ireland:) :)

I don't understand what the problem is about those of us who support our team doing so. In the backdrop of all that people have been through in NI, it hardly rates as the extreme in terms of devisiveness!

Let those who support football and the NI team do so. Anyone else is free to enjoy the GAA.

Audley

I know that I should know better but.....

Is the wheel an acceptable form of contraception and how are they using it?

Thanks Ricardo, thanks for giving me an audience. You should have known better.
The wheel in itself is not the contraceptive device!! I know thats what you were thinking but, please, let me go on.
The adoption of the wheel by free staters at the turn of century led to the invention of, yep you've guessed it, the plough.
This increased the increased the donkey population in Eireann from 12 million to somewhere between 300 and 400 million in the decade preceding the great war. The population took a dip again as HM government sent millions of Irish donkeys to their deaths in the trenches of the Somme. It has been rumoured that Lawrie Sanchez is hoping to exhume some of the corpses of these donkeys in time for the battle against the mainland on Wednesday. That, I stress, is just a rumour.
However those that remained were worked hard in the fields. Those randy Irish boys, in this new world of wheels and donkeys, often found themselves taking their frustation out on these poor animals. This meant less action for poor old Siobhan and Riosin back home. Hence the population drop. Well that's what we were taught in catholic grammar schools anyway.

I've got to object to the use of the word "papes" above.

Due to local difficulties that everyone is aware of, each fifteen might actually be Roman Catholics but to characterise GAA players as such ignores the important part in the history of the GAA that people of other denominations have played and in much of the country continue to play.

Thanks Audley (I'm not Ricardo btw!)

I thought that the population drop was due to the fact that Southern Catholics ate babies. I have built my entire political philosophy on this basis ;)

Have the NI really arrived at the international flavour of its team, which the Republic espouses, that we would be considering donkey's from the Republic?

(Our Nothern donkeys still haven't all been reintered after the last election, the graveyard being a constituency no serious politician can afford to ignore)

Waiter
Can I have a pint of whatever Audley is on!

Anyone who said they didnt hear a single person talking about the NI match afterwards yesterday - they certainly weren't in the bar where I was!!

As for the 'mainland' flags and how can they be flown on Wed? I actually didnt see any St George's Cross flags. There were a (very) few Union Flags which can be flown on Wed with no problems as they represent both teams. The vast majority of people were flying the rightful flag - the one which flies on the stadium beside the opposing country's flag - the flag of Northern Ireland.

A great game - the second half performance was definately something to take heart from - and the real bonus for me was that both goals weren't scored by David Healy. It shows we have more than just one man in our strikefoce (Sproule to score winner on Wed btw!!!)

Its not always about being the most successful team in the world. To me its a bit like the Frank Skinner test of which club side you should support. His theory was that you draw a line from where you were born to where the nearest football club plays - THAT is your team, no matter how rubbish they may happen to be. I take a similar view on international football - I was born in NI, I live in NI, and I will support NI always.

And....... we're not Brazil!

I look forward to cheering on the six-county team against England. Let's hope they let Catholic Poland slip in for the automatic quallifying spot.

Well done NI, pity about the opposition but it's good for them to get a win at last.

Couple of GAA related points, yeah the pitch is bigger (approx 82m*137m) for obvious reasons, there are 30 players on the field.
And the fitness levels of the top GAA teams are comparable with those in the English permiership.

I need to learn the words of the sash, the billy boys and god save mrs windsor so I can cheer on the six pravinces against the auld enemy on Wednesday. ;)

Henry

As one recently returned from a very enjoyable trip to 'Catholic Poland', I'll say 'hear hear' to that!

IJP

When I first read your post I missed the "Henry".

I had trouble trying to picture you getting stuck into the Billy Boys ;)

Audley

"explain why the mainlands anthem was played for the province today"

Just noticed this. Not sure what the mainland anthem is. GSTQ is the anthem of the United Kingdom, but then you did know that didn't you? You were just trying to be provoking - you wee scamp you!

I found this piece by a columnist in Daily Ireland. I really don't know how representative it is of the way NI nationalist community will feel on Wednesday; I would hope that it is a minority position. I find it a bit strange that there are people who feel this way and I hope that as time goes on the NI team can come to enjoy support from both sides of our community.

The text is posted below

--------------------------------------------------
/////

Robin Livingstone - Daily Ireland

At first I thought a lizard or a cicada had made its way up the leg of my shorts, so when it turned out that it was the silently vibrating mobile I was relieved.

Relieved even though I was on holiday and the text was from work, which normally is not good news. I pressed the button and read.

“Truth now. Wed night. Ulster v England. Who r u cheering on?” To be honest, I was surprised and a little disappointed. Surprised that the sender of the text would be in any doubt about where I stand on the matter in hand, and disappointed that the the bottomless pit of enmity and the cavernous morass of malice that I bear towards Our Wee Pravince has not by this time articulated itself to everyone who knows me. The thumb fairly flew over the keys.

“Three lions on the shirt fella.”

I’ve mentioned before in this column that the dread words ‘Northern Ireland’ never pass my lips. Not only that, but I physically wince every time I hear them. Indeed, when the plane bringing me back from holiday landed at Belfast and the flight attendant with a Ballymena accent said that on behalf of the entire flight crew she’d like to welcome everybody on board to Northern Ireland, I looked up from my book and fired off a dirty look, but she didn’t catch my eye and the gesture went fizzing past her averted head like a badly-aimed RPG.

So it should come as no surprise if I tell you that come Wednesday night, I will be cheering not only for an England win, but an emphatic England win; a trouncing, a rout, a spanking, a tanking, an embarrassment (but not a national embarrassment, of course).

Some people say politics has no place in sport, but then some people say Jackie Fullerton’s a good commentator; some people say Lawrie Sanchez knows what he’s doing; and some people say the IFA have kicked sectarianism out of Windsor Park. I’ve been there a few times and I have to say I’d feel more at home in the cheap seats at a Balkan derby. It’s like the eleventh night but without a bonfire for entertainment.

And although this is not a prime reason for me opposing the statelet of my birth, let’s face it, Lawrie’s green and blue army aren’t very good, are they? The sheepskin-coated clichés, that elsewhere help us towards a concise understanding of the game and the players, are used by the local BBC as a way of avoiding having to state the obvious:
• He’d die for the badge (And let’s hope he does fairly soon);
• He’s a good reader of the game (A bottle of milk would turn quicker);
• He’s currently out of favour at Clacton Rovers (Even though the team has only ten players);
• He always gives 110 per cent (what of we’re not entirely certain).

"I need to learn the words of the sash, the billy boys and god save mrs windsor so I can cheer on the six pravinces against the auld enemy on Wednesday. ;)"

You most definately would not need to know the words of the first two ditties as they play no part in the Windsor sing-along..unless a few of the English lads still go in for that type of thing?

Regarding the National Anthem of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, you shouldn't let something trivial like that put you off...goodness me, I stand quietly as they play the Soldiers Song every time I visit Landsdowne to watch Ireland play rugby - not my cup of tea really, but I'm there to watch rugby, not get upset about a tune.

PS:

Deary, deary me...Mr Livingstone is a very sad man really. So much hatred, so little credability.

'...Not only that, but I physically wince every time I hear them. Indeed, when the plane bringing me back from holiday landed at Belfast and the flight attendant with a Ballymena accent said that on behalf of the entire flight crew she’d like to welcome everybody on board to Northern Ireland, I looked up from my book and fired off a dirty look, but she didn’t catch my eye and the gesture went fizzing past her averted head like a badly-aimed RPG.'

What a hard man, eh?
Wonder if Livinstone could give us a few examples of what he considers to have been well aimed RPGs. Pathetic bastard.

Many loyal northern ireland supporters seem to have sold their tickets to England supporters or to ticketing agents.

Yoy can't get a hotel room in Belfast on wednesday, so many England supporters are coming over for the game.

'Were not Brazil were quids in'

Might be a more appropriate saying for the 'fans'

'Many loyal northern ireland supporters seem to have sold their tickets to England supporters or to ticketing agents.

Yoy can't get a hotel room in Belfast on wednesday, so many England supporters are coming over for the game.'

Perhaps the geographical proximity of Northern Ireland to England might have something to do with the large amount of away fans? Just a thought.

"Perhaps the geographical proximity of Northern Ireland to England might have something to do with the large amount of away fans?"

With tickets ?

How do you know they've all got tickets?

Normal rules is 10% of a ground is allocated to away fans. So that would be 1400.

I heard there were about 1000 tickets allocated for England fans - rumours seem to vary between 5000 and 15000 for the numbers travelling.

Of course the fact that NI is only a quick easyjet flight or ferry away will increase the numbers coming over. No doubt a few tickets will have exchanged hands between NI supporters and England supporters, but I'd be surprised if it was more than a handful. It happens at all games where there is a big demand for tickets though.

It really is laughable to read drivel like the ReallyDireland..... its a wonderful indication of the level of tolerance and respect within the republican community that he cant even hear the words 'Northern Ireland' without wincing - and to think I'd seen all the bigotry I could manage on LoveUlster this week, well he manages to top even that.

As for the singing at Windsor Park - for anyone who has actually been to a game in the last 5 years you'll know that the words to Away in a Manger (HEALY! HEALY!) or the start to "We're not Brazil, We're Northern Ireland" (mine eyes have seen the glory of Espania 82, when little Northern Ireland showed the world what we can do.......) are much more useful to you these days.

yerman

Love Ulster has improved a lot. when I went in to it first I couldn't beleive how dire it was and sort of staggered out, metaphorically speaking. However, they have brought on moderators and the worst of the sectarian stuff has gone. It is still bedding down and hopefully it will continue to improve.

need a ticket for wedensday nite!!...... anyone who has a ticket that they want to sell (or a spare one) please contact me ...i really really need one

thanks stephen (07887764453)

'As for the singing at Windsor Park - for anyone who has actually been to a game in the last 5 years you'll know that the words to Away in a Manger (HEALY! HEALY!)'

Not having been in more than 14 years is somewhat indicative of the last experience of the Windsor faithful i'm afraid and until the 'home' venue is moved I can't see me ever returning.
As for the away in a manger ditty a mate sang it for me last week end. Unfortunately we were in a pub at the time and by the time he got to the 'Healy,Healy' bit the entire clientelle were in a wrinkle....you do have to admire the humour.

As my throat is still as rough as a badger's crotch and I'm still speaking in a croak I can only hope that the rest of the West Stand will be able to compensate on Wednesday night. The noise was incredible on Saturday and for all those making jibes about the lack of fans at Windsor Park, the 80000 odd at Croke Park watching the rosy cheeked farm boys kick spuds make little noise in comparison!

A good win, admittedly against less than wonderful opposition.

It's refreshing to finally have an out in the open honest to goodness republican bigot like Robin Livingstone tell it like it is- no pretending that it's anything other than hatred of NI and all it stands for.

Yes the team was poor on Saturday; yes Azerbaijan are probably no better than the Clifton House over 80s paraplegics; yes England might well beat their previous lucky 13-0 win of 1880 on Wednesday. So what. As the banner on the North Stand says "We exist", and Saturday was a great day, without a hint of sectarianism in the ground.

Let's see how Jean Alain Boumsong, formerly of Rangers, gets treated on Wednesday night at Lansdowne road by all the sad nordies traveling down from Newry, Andytown etc- with Mr Livingstone I presume.

If GAA floats your boat as a sport, fine- just don't try to say it's better because 70 odd thousand went to a semi-final. I bet NI could have 70,000 fans at a World Cup Semi-final if (when) we get to one. Even the Welsh get 60000 to watch Hartson the Elephant fall over.

But it's not about the sport, of course- as Robin makes clear, republicans cannot stomach the display of Ulster nationalism/provincialism so obviously free from the taint of sectarianism which they need a stick to beat us with. A Northern Ireland that works, and is getting better is every nationalist's fear- and not just then football team. That's why Robin wants us to fail. He's scared because we succeded before, and can do it again. Look at RoI-fading players, over reliant on the tired legs of Keane and Duff. What's coming along behind them? A decade of Scottish style obscurity if they don't qualify this time. So.. allez les Bleus!!!

Headmelter
So you admit that there is no sectarian singing at Windsor Park, so you then decide to move your opposition to the placement of the ground. I get the feeling that you just want to find excuses.

As for 'away in a manger' - glad to hear the people enjoyed it, even if they thought it was funny. That's the spirit with which the support take the games. NI wont win all the time, they may not win any of the time, but we're there to support them anyway, whether its Argentina or Azerbaijan that they happen to be playing.

Some people seem to think that the possibility of England beating NI is likely to come as something of a shock - its not and guess what, we dont care.

Surprised to see so few Union flags.

The game showed that the non Brazilian team was way better than the other team with the same world ranking.

Was completely baffled when the crowed started up with. ‘Away in a Manger’ – That was funny. He-lay! He-lay!

What was worrying was that the two goals they did score (although a terrific free kick) were from set pieces (and the penalty was dubious), and that Norn Iron couldn’t break down the Azer’s from general play.

‘THAT is your team, no matter how rubbish they may happen to be. I take a similar view on international football - I was born in NI, I live in NI, and I will support NI always’

As I’ve spouted before, the changing of ones religion is small potatoes compared to choosing not to support the team you were imprinted with.

‘I look forward to cheering on the six-county team against England. Let's hope they let Catholic Poland slip in for the automatic quallifying spot.’

Even if England were second it is likely they’ll get one of the best runner’s up spots and automatically qualify.

Well done to YWC. :-) Still, not a patch on the ROI (also not Brazil) though!!!

darthrumsfeld,

'Even the Welsh get 60000 to watch Hartson the Elephant fall over.' Of all the elephants on the Welsh team, why did you pick on the SPL's highest goal scorer?

It kind of depletes your right to complain about the treatment Boumsong is likely to get next Wed.

'tired legs of Keane' Yes, 'and Duff' Wah?!?

'A decade of Scottish style obscurity if they don't qualify this time.' Wishful thinking, my man.

Although, if I were an unbiased punter I'd favour France on Wednesday, but I'll further wager that the score between the ROI and France will be tighter than the NI/England game.

PANIC! I've lost my ticket for Wednesday's game!

Absolutely smcgiff! OWC will tank them about 6! ;-)

ANY TICKETS FOR WEDENSDAY NITE????

PLEASE PLEASE CONTACT ME 07887766453
OR EMAIL ME (stevyirwin@hotmail.com)

"Not having been in more than 14 years is somewhat indicative of the last experience of the Windsor faithful i'm afraid and until the 'home' venue is moved I can't see me ever returning."

I understand where you're coming from Headmelter.

I live in Co Antrim...can't see me venturing to see the County GAA team play until their "home" venue is moved.

Do you think that'll ever happen?

Then again, you could always enter Windsor Park via either Boucher Road (as Cliftonville supporters do when they visit Windsor Park), or via the Lisburn Road...that's the place where the growing nationalist community objected strongly to the flying of Union & Northern Ireland flags during July.

PS:

Nice to see that one of the young mascots on Saturday was from that bastion of loyalism...Camlough, South Armagh.

Oh dear...another myth shattered.

I'm sorry but anyone who thinks Les Bleus have any chance of getting out of Lansdowne Road with a victory is dreaming. Have a look at our competitive home record there since about 1980. They can bring back Zidane, Platini and f*cking Napoleon & it won't make one shite of a difference...they're going down.

yerman,

'Headmelter
So you admit that there is no sectarian singing at Windsor Park, so you then decide to move your opposition to the placement of the ground. I get the feeling that you just want to find excuses.'

I don't admit there is no sectarian singing at Windsor as I haven't been, I can only take your word for it. If I'm not mistaken Neil Lennon played his last game for the 'pravince' less than 5 years ago due to sectarian death threats. Not the type of behaviour that will lure supporters from the nationalist side of the fence i'm afraid.

As for the 'home' venue, in my opinion, it has always been and will always be a sectarian cesspit. I'm afraid 1000lb of semtex wouldn't shift this opinion and there are many like me so if the IFA are serious about attracting a sizeable cross section of the community moving the 'home' venue is something that needs to be considered.

As I haven't paid much attention to local soccer and know even less about rugby why is an Irish (both 26+6 county) soccer team not a possibility?
May be some of the Norn Iron faithful would like to offer some opinions

"why is an Irish (both 26+6 county) soccer team not a possibility?
May be some of the Norn Iron faithful would like to offer some opinions"

I dunno, perhaps you might wan't to read back over some on the posts in this very thread and then tell me why Northern Ireland should consider joining forces with people who despise them so much that they physically wince at the mention of the name?

"We hate you, come and join us"

Sorry, but I think some people need lessons in persuasion.

TAFKABO
"tell me why Northern Ireland should consider joining forces with people who despise them so much that they physically wince at the mention of the name"

The people of the 26 (who is being referred to in the post you are responding to) don't generally "despise [NI] so much that they physically wince at the mention of the name". Or can you provide evidence to the contrary?

Sorry Maca.

I made the mistake of assuming that a column in a Newspapaer called Daily Ireland might actually represent the views of people from the 26 counties.
If you want to argue that it doesn't then fair play to you, I'd love to see how you justify such a claim.
Not to mention the posts in this thread which talk abot Croke Park and pour scorn on Northern Ireland, I guess i was also grabbing at straws to assume that these might also represent feelings within the 26 counties?

Ferfuxsake Maca, read the thread and catch yerself on.

I've always had a slight problem with a national footbal team who don't actually come from a nation. Could somebody explain to me why there is a Northern Ireland footbal team?
This has surely been debated to death in the relevant thread - however I really don't have the patience to plough through 200 posts for a reaction to this.

And TAFKABO - come on now, you really don't expect us to believe that you are so naive as to believe that what is written in the Daily Ireland is actually the point of view of Ireland as a whole. Stop playing the green horn. You know rightly thats not the case.

"And TAFKABO - come on now, you really don't expect us to believe that you are so naive as to believe that what is written in the Daily Ireland is actually the point of view of Ireland as a whole. Stop playing the green horn. You know rightly thats not the case."

I don't recall saying that it represented the opinions of everyone, just that it represents the opinons of some.
Besides, the next time I ,as a Unionist, am taken to task when some sectarin neanderthal throws a paint bomb in Ballymena, remember your words here.

"Of all the elephants on the Welsh team, why did you pick on the SPL's highest goal scorer?"

Not because of the team he plays for, I assure you, but because he's the most horrible gurning clugger I've seen in an international jersey- and yes, that even includes James Quinn. Mind you, he's still marginally better than the aptly named Savage

As for the arguments for an all-Ireland footie team, we had one of those before nationalism decided to set up it's own association, and they're welcome to do the decent thing and dissolve it, recognising that it hasn't really worked. We'll try to be gracious and not gloat.

Perhaps we'll bring back the old badge- seen on the 125th anniversary shirt- with more shamrocks and harps than the New York Paddy's day parade, begorrah. Better than the horrible FAI new logo by a mile, and so distinctively Irish, yet worn with pride by...er those evil proddies..shome mishtake shurely? And we could bring back the proper national colour of Ireland- St Patrick's blue for the jersey.

See that's thing with having a tradition - you don't have to make it up. FAI take note.

TAFKABO: I try never to use the broad brush when painting the picture - ad I didn't see any "some people" in your post.
Like the song says "there is good and bad in everyone" - its the broad generalisations that make it too easy for people to be either Us or Them. Sectarian eejits are on boths sides, but it doesn't make both sides all sectarian eejits.

"Like the song says "there is good and bad in everyone"

A word of warning mo chara.

I'm willing to try and forget thirty five years of pontless slaughter, but I'll never forgive anyone who quotes Ebony and Ivory in an argument about sectarianism.

Nothing more likely to bring both communities together than the desire to administer a punishment beating to some splinter arsed fence sitter.

( J'blague )

Shame on you for actually recognising the quote TAFKABO.
I realise it was a super kitsch move - couldn't resist it somehow. Could have been worse - I could have quoted something from "the girl is mine" (a much worse McCartney duet with Mickey J).
(Amazing the amount of pointless trivia that stacks up).
Anyway, why does NI have a national footbal team?

"Shame on you for actually recognising the quote TAFKABO."

Uh, I didn't, I had to Google the words.....

( and if you believe that, I have a disused army watchtower you might be interested in buying)

'he's the most horrible gurning clugger I've seen in an international jersey'

Too young to remember Peter Beardsley then, eh? But I take your point.

'recognising that it hasn't really worked.'

If it hasn't really worked, then let the gods help NI.

'We'll try to be gracious and not gloat.'

Thanks, but it'd be hard to gloat when none of the first team would be from Ulster! :-)

'Better than the horrible FAI new logo by a mile,'

You mean the Fairyland logo? Yip, it's a shocker. The defence rests. Hang 'em judge.

'And we could bring back the proper national colour of Ireland- St Patrick's blue for the jersey.' Nah - You've lost me there. Lets keep religion out of it.

Headmelter,

"If I'm not mistaken Neil Lennon played his last game for the 'pravince' less than 5 years ago due to sectarian death threats. Not the type of behaviour that will lure supporters from the nationalist side of the fence i'm afraid."

Nothing will lure some supporters from "the nationalist side of the fence"...they don't recognise the state and can't even bring themselves to utter the term "Northern Ireland".

Hardly our target market.

Regarding Neil Lennon, the death threats against him (by someone in a phonebox with a 20p piece) and the booing of him at a fixture by a small section of so called Northern Ireland fans, was absolutely despicable.

But let's be honest here...Neil is no angel, as his sectarian outbursts at recent Old Firm games would demonstrate - "Orange bastard" is what he was caught on camera shouting at a Rangers player during a game last season.

Such outbursts would hardly endear Neil to a sizeable section of Northern Ireland fans.

The IFA are proud to field teams including players from both sections of the community at all levels. The supporters are proud that that is the case too.

"As for the 'home' venue, in my opinion, it has always been and will always be a sectarian cesspit. I'm afraid 1000lb of semtex wouldn't shift this opinion and there are many like me so if the IFA are serious about attracting a sizeable cross section of the community moving the 'home' venue is something that needs to be considered."

A rather unfortunate turn of phrase.

Many of us will remember (and never forget) the efforts of republicans to explode bombs and murder innocent football fans on the two most recent occassions that England have visited Windsor Park...February 1985 and April 1987.

I also wish that people would catch on to the fact that the IFA are not trying to appease any one section of the community.

What they and the majority of fans are trying to do is ensure that those who support Northern Ireland (nationalist/unionist/other) can come to games in an atmosphere free from sectarianism, bigotry and intolerance....Put simply, that politics is left at the turnstiles.

In a society such as ours, that is a very difficult job! It is a job that takes time and dedication. It involves changing mindsets.

It may come as a shock to those with closed minds, but there are countless folk who would consider themselves Northern Ireland fans who abhor such antics at matches...many have not returned following the Lennon incidents.

It is those "lost" Northern Ireland fans we want to show that the corner is being turned and that things are different...and they most certainly are.

It's all about Northern Ireland fans...not those who despise the very existance of such a place.

Well done Northern Ireland on Saturday.
Stuff the bigots who hate to see us do well.
PS. Football For All is working....Robin Livingstone's aticle proves that....he's scared of NI as an entity working!!!!!

bigwhitedove

82k in Croke tomorrow

Apparently it was 65k.

Henry94

I look forward to cheering on the six-county team against England. Let's hope they let Catholic Poland slip in for the automatic quallifying spot.

Why have you sought fit to describe Poland as “Catholic Poland”? What is the relevance of the religious descriptor? Do you choose your favourite teams or countries based on sectarian affiliations?

Headmelter

until the 'home' venue is moved I can't see me ever returning.

Why? Why did you go in the first place if the venue was a problem? Why would you not return?

As I haven't paid much attention to local soccer and know even less about rugby why is an Irish (both 26+6 county) soccer team not a possibility?

Why is a Northern Irish (6 county) rugby team not a possibility? It would make more sense.

circles

I've always had a slight problem with a national footbal team who don't actually come from a nation. Could somebody explain to me why there is a Northern Ireland footbal team?

Same reason England, Scotland and Wales have football teams: there is an agreement with FIFA that in recognition of the home nations’ historic role in founding and developing football, they are permitted to retain their separate international status.

This gaelic football thing is the worst sport i have ever seen! it's just an excuse for paddies to have a little day out to make up for us taking over there stupid little country!

*cough* Troll *Cough*

Fair play to Norn Iron although it's a bit hard to get excited about one glorified pub team beating another one. Rather like the Dog and Duck eleven celebrating a vital victory over te King's Head eleven.

"Fair play to Norn Iron although it's a bit hard to get excited about one glorified pub team beating another one. Rather like the Dog and Duck eleven celebrating a vital victory over te King's Head eleven."

When you were born in, live in, raise your family in, socialise in, are likely to die in and totally identify with the "Dog and Duck", it's not hard at all to get excited when ones "pub team" beat anyone at all.

In fact, because the poor aul "pub team" has suffered so many defeats and disappointments over recent years, has been ridiculed, lambasted and demonised by some who live in it's very neighbourhood and the fact that is a historic pub that want to knock it down, it makes it even more exciting.

"Pub team" or not, it's our team...always.

TAFKABO
"I made the mistake of assuming .. ..."
A rather stupid assumption.

"...I'd love to see how you justify such a claim."
How about justfying how it DOES represent the views of those in the 26?

"I guess i was also grabbing at straws"
You said it.

"catch yerself on"
You might take your own advice there.

willowfield

until the 'home' venue is moved I can't see me ever returning.

Why? Why did you go in the first place if the venue was a problem? Why would you not return?

The venue wasn't a problem to start with but after a few visits between 1980-1990, listening to nothing but sectarian chants for the majority of the 90 minutes and looking at the colours displayed on the spion kop solidified a developing personal opinion, that it was nothing but a sectarian cesspit, where members of my community were not welcome.
I wouldn't return because I found it an intimidating and uncomfortable place not only to be in but to gain access to.

'Why is a Northern Irish (6 county) rugby team not a possibility? It would make more sense.'

How you think this would make more sense mystifies me. At least the Irish rugby team are relatively successful, having their fair share of victories to cheer about. But if you want to have a shite provincial rugby team to go along with a shite provincial soccer team then you must have some sado masochistic tendancies.

"How you think this would make more sense mystifies me. At least the Irish rugby team are relatively successful, having their fair share of victories to cheer about. But if you want to have a shite provincial rugby team to go along with a shite provincial soccer team then you must have some sado masochistic tendancies."

Or, alternatively maybe Willowfield and others identify more readily with a team representing Northern Ireland?

You see, place of birth and subsequent sporting allegiance are not reversable for some...it's a pride thing!

That's a most honourable trait, blissfully untarnished by success or failure.

If I really wanted to support somebody good, I would choose Brazil.

Unfortunately that luxury is not available to me, as I was born in Northern Ireland.

I support Northern Ireland and all those sportsmen and women who represent this wee place, because it's where I'm from.

Juvenile comments like ""shite team" make not one iota of difference as to how Northern Ireland supporters feel about the team that represents them.

We know we're shite...we don't care.

I'd have no problem with a NI (there already is a provincial team remember) rugby team. At the moment we have no national rugby team, only an "island" team, I wouldn't mind having a national team to support.

"The venue wasn't a problem to start with but after a few visits between 1980-1990, listening to nothing but sectarian chants for the majority of the 90 minutes and looking at the colours displayed on the spion kop solidified a developing personal opinion, that it was nothing but a sectarian cesspit, where members of my community were not welcome.
I wouldn't return because I found it an intimidating and uncomfortable place not only to be in but to gain access to."

I don't blame you headmelter, to someone not familiar with the area it could seem a bit dodgy but to be honest, I don't believe you'd hear any sectarian chanting.

Colours:
There was one Union Flag at the front of the kop on saturday (the Belfast Leeds Supporters Club if I read it right) and a lot of folk decked out in green and white.

Chanting:
As I said I don't believe you'd hear any. If you can put up with chants of "Stand up for the Ulstermen" that's about as 'sectarian' as it got! TBH I think there maybe be more from the Ingurland fans on Wednesday, but sadly I haven't got a ticket to tell first hand.

Given the above, I don't think there would be much to intimidate you inside the ground. As pointed out above, you can gain access to the North/South/Railway stands from the Lisburn Road (you'll be more worried about parking than intimidation, although I think there is some red white and blue bunting on Lower Windsor Avenue at the moment) and to the Kop and South Stands from the Boucher Road (which is commercial, not residential).

If that really is all that's keeping you away, I'd encourage you to visit again some time.

'Or, alternatively maybe Willowfield and others identify more readily with a team representing Northern Ireland?

You see, place of birth and subsequent sporting allegiance are not reversable for some...it's a pride thing!'

I can only try and understand how willowfield and others more readily identify with a team representing N.Ireland and sure things might have changed but my initial experiences didn't endear me to the team nor the supporters.
The thing is I believe I am Irish not N.Irish.
Unfortunately I was born in a part of Ireland that was partitioned then governed by a corrupt, bigotted, sectarian govt before being occupied by a foreign power which resulted in thirty years of armed conflict.
It has seemed to me that it has always been a 'state' that has aimed to discriminate against,and disenfranchise me and the community from which I come. I, quite often, subsequently have difficulty recognising, identifying with and taking pride in things connected to it. Soccer at Windsor park being one of them.

'Juvenile comments like ""shite team"'

I would have thought more objective than juvenile.

'If that really is all that's keeping you away, I'd encourage you to visit again some time.'

As I have said previously maybe things have changed and I might give it a go again someday. But there would still be a greater chance of that happening if it was somewhere other than Windsor park.

I'll see you at the following game against England at the Coca-Cola stadium on the old Maze site then...?

;o)

"Could somebody explain to me why there is a Northern Ireland footbal team?

Same reason England, Scotland and Wales have football teams"

Thanks for that willowfield! I never knew - although it is a little bit a bending of the rules. I mean what about poor old Cornwall!! The Cornish football team really should be given a crack of the whip - not to mention the Isle of Man (and Jersey).

Isle of Man & Jersey do have national teams, AFAIK, but they are not affiliated to FIFA. I think the Isle of Man actually has a bigger population than the Faroe island so they should be affiliated, IMO.
Although, realistically there should be separate competitions for these smaller nations as they can't really compete with the big boys.

willowfield

Why have you sought fit to describe Poland as “Catholic Poland”? What is the relevance of the religious descriptor? Do you choose your favourite teams or countries based on sectarian affiliations?

I think I'm safe in assuming that you were the only person who didn't realise the comment was tongue-in-cheek.

"The thing is I believe I am Irish not N.Irish."

Headmelter,

I'm as Irish as you...it's just that I don't subscribe to a myopic view of Irishness. I'm Northern Irish, British & Irish...proud of all three.

That's a concept that nationalists/republicans had better get to grips with if they desire unity on this island.

"Unfortunately I was born in a part of Ireland that was partitioned then governed by a corrupt, bigotted, sectarian govt before being occupied by a foreign power which resulted in thirty years of armed conflict.
It has seemed to me that it has always been a 'state' that has aimed to discriminate against,and disenfranchise me and the community from which I come. I, quite often, subsequently have difficulty recognising, identifying with and taking pride in things connected to it. Soccer at Windsor park being one of them."

Ahhh...no we have the REAL reason why you don't support the Northern Ireland team.

Your rhetoric is familiar, if a tad tiresome.

You resent Northern Ireland's very existance...A point I alluded to earlier. Hardly surprising then that you don't support it's football team.

Realist,
if you are Irish and proud, why are you not as proud of the other 4 million plus Irish on this island as you are of yourself?

Or does your novel concept of Irishness not involve the overwhelming majority of Irish people?

Realist
This "Irish" you subscribe to, is that not "Northern Irish"? Or what is this other "Irish" then?

George: Wah?
Maca: Better put.

'I'm as Irish as you...it's just that I don't subscribe to a myopic view of Irishness. I'm Northern Irish, British & Irish...proud of all three.'
That's a concept that nationalists/republicans had better get to grips with if they desire unity on this island.'

Realist,
I don't subscribe to a myopic view of Northern Irishness. I'm proud of where I come from and my Ulster heritage I just don't identify with the entire package.But each to their own. I respect the protestant culture but sometimes i wish there was a little more respect and tolerance for my own.
I live in a predominantly loyalist area and of the many things I have learned is the protestant peoples attachment to their britishness. What ever floats your boat, but I sometimes wish these same people would stop dictating what should float mine.
I've been to Windsor several times and it was not enjoyable for the reasons I have given.
If you prefer to isolate a small proportion of one of my posts to support your distorted point of view that is your choice.

'Your rhetoric is familiar, if a tad tiresome'

So is a lot of loyalist/unionist rhetoric. Most of which seems aimed at 'keeping me in my place' and preventing my elected representatives from sharing power.

'You resent Northern Ireland's very existance'

I don't resent its existance I just don't agree with it and a lot of things it has come to symbolise and stand for. This goes for both sides of the fence by the way.

Headmelter

The venue wasn't a problem to start with but after a few visits between 1980-1990, listening to nothing but sectarian chants for the majority of the 90 minutes and looking at the colours displayed on the spion kop solidified a developing personal opinion, that it was nothing but a sectarian cesspit, where members of my community were not welcome.

So it was the sectarian chants and the colours being displayed on the Spion Kop – not the venue itself– that drove you away. That is perfectly reasonable.

What is not reasonable, however, is then to use the venue/location as a reason not to return, even though the sectarian chants have ended and colours removed.

Seems very odd to attend matches in which you experienced sectarianism, and then boycott them when sectarianism has been eradicated!

You’re not making any sense.

'Why is a Northern Irish (6 county) rugby team not a possibility? It would make more sense.'
How you think this would make more sense mystifies me.

That’s odd. You should do a bit of political and historical reading. Look into the period of Irish history around 1921!

At least the Irish rugby team are relatively successful, having their fair share of victories to cheer about. But if you want to have a shite provincial rugby team to go along with a shite provincial soccer team then you must have some sado masochistic tendancies.

Success is not relevant. All countries have their own teams, regardless of how successful they are. In fact, it is not possible for some teams to be successful unless others are unsuccessful! If you scrapped unsuccessful teams, logically, you would end up with only 1 team!

I can only try and understand how willowfield and others more readily identify with a team representing N.Ireland and sure things might have changed but my initial experiences didn't endear me to the team nor the supporters.

Time to get some new experiences, then!

The thing is I believe I am Irish not N.Irish.

Er, the two aren’t mutually exclusive, you know!!

Unfortunately I was born in a part of Ireland that was partitioned then governed by a corrupt, bigotted, sectarian govt before being occupied by a foreign power which resulted in thirty years of armed conflict.

You being serious?

It has seemed to me that it has always been a 'state' that has aimed to discriminate against,and disenfranchise me and the community from which I come. I, quite often, subsequently have difficulty recognising, identifying with and taking pride in things connected to it. Soccer at Windsor park being one of them.

So – contrary to your earlier comments, illogical though they were, in which you claimed that it was the venue that led to your inability to support NI – the real reason is that you neither recognise, identify with or take pride in Northern Ireland or “things connected to it”.

Why couldn’t you have been honest to begin with?

circles

Thanks for that willowfield! I never knew - although it is a little bit a bending of the rules. I mean what about poor old Cornwall!! The Cornish football team really should be given a crack of the whip - not to mention the Isle of Man (and Jersey).

Neither Cornwall, nor the Isle of Man, were founding football associations.

Henry94

I think I'm safe in assuming that you were the only person who didn't realise the comment was tongue-in-cheek.

Oh, I realised it was tongue-in-cheek, all right. You clearly didn’t realise my reply was also tongue-in-cheek!

Smcgiff,

It's just that there is venemous hatred on show for all to see whenever NI and ROI meet but Wednesday against England will be a British love-in at Windsor Park. Cultural respect all round. We are all proud to be British and all that.

There just doesn't seem to be room for Irish people and what they hold dear in the Irish pride that NI British people seem to talk about so often.

The Irish tricolour is a rag to be burnt at every unionist cultural opportunity, the Irish national anthem an offensive piece of sectarian dirge, Irish national sports no more than a sectarian cesspit occupied by unfit papes, the Irish state a terrorist-appeasing haven, a corrupt, pathetic excuse for a nation, its leader not worthy of the respect of a handshake, the ancient Irish language the tool of terrorists, a ranting speak not worthy of merit.

Similar sentiments are often expressed by the more rabid Irish nationalists of NI, unionism and its symbols (replace with British in above paragragh) so I suppose they are all in good company and deserve each other.

But while equally full of venemous hatred, at least they're not so contrary as to call themselves British in one breath and spit on everything the British hold dear in the next.

If the British people of NI mean they are proud of their Hiberno-Britishness fine but don't use the term Irish because it just confuses the millions of people who consider themselves Irish on this island.

Unlike Willowfield, I am beginning to think that Irish and Northern Irish are mutually exclusive and are getting more mutually exclusive by the year.

The church and school burnings, mob rule, peace walls and everything else are just signs of how mutually exclusive it all is.

It just sickens me to the core at this stage.

Take a leaf out of Lord Laird's Ulster Scots book. Clear and to the point. Not Irish, Scottish. Just been living in Ireland for the last 300 years and always will.

Let's get building the Peace Pale as soon as possible. 20 metres high and 20 metres wide. You can have it in yards if you like.

Rant over.

Willowfield,

'What is not reasonable, however, is then to use the venue/location as a reason not to return, even though the sectarian chants have ended and colours removed.

Seems very odd to attend matches in which you experienced sectarianism, and then boycott them when sectarianism has been eradicated!'

Has it?
my last visit was over 14 years ago when sectarian chants were the predominant theme so if it has been eradicated I can only take your word for it if it has.

'Unfortunately I was born in a part of Ireland that was partitioned then governed by a corrupt, bigotted, sectarian govt before being occupied by a foreign power which resulted in thirty years of armed conflict.

You being serious?'

Why wouldn't I be, what part of this statement is not true?

'So – contrary to your earlier comments, illogical though they were, in which you claimed that it was the venue that led to your inability to support NI – the real reason is that you neither recognise, identify with or take pride in Northern Ireland or “things connected to it”.'

If you read all of my posts in context it the venue was a contributing factor of many.
Try not to be so selective.

While I have sympathy with what you say it's not up to us to decide what being Irish means. Irish does not mean all that is good on the island of Ireland.

If some decide that being Irish or Northern Irish means hating the ROI (not saying Realist is saying that!) then so be it.

Those that hold the meaning of being Irish to be solely nationalist or Republican don't have ownership. Realist is Irish by virute of claiming to be Irish, Northern Irish as well as British.

With that said, it's clear he's thrown his lot in with the wrong crowd! ;-)

Smcgiff,
Not saying for a second that Realist hates ROI or that he/she is in any way unreasonable but there are an awful lot of people on this island who do and are. Some would say the majority.

If the self-proclaimed and voted for leader of the unionist people refuses to even shake the hand of the leader of the Irish people what part of Irishness do the British people of Northern Ireland subscribe to or respect?

It all comes down to respect.

It seems to me that it isn't the same Irishness as the rest of us, which seems to actually offend (ranging from mildly to greviously) the majority of unionists.

There seems to be nothing in their Britishness that offends them but almost everything that the "Irish" value is somehow tainted or corrupt.

Many otherwise reasonable people even go so far as to equate Irishness with the IRA.

I would like to know what kind of Irish pride does a British-Irish person have if they appear to have nothing but contempt for the values, symbols, culture, leaders, political system of your bog-standard Irish person - i.e. the overwhelming majority of people on this island.

To me it's a bit like that disgraceful rant from Robin Livingstone ending with him saying how he still loves being part of the UK and is simply British.

It simply doesn't add up.

'It seems to me that it isn't the same Irishness as the rest of us, which seems to actually offend (ranging from mildly to greviously) the majority of unionists.'

But that's their look out, George.

I don't subscribe to their vision of Irishness, but I'll defend their right to call themselves Irish, even the bigots among them.

I don’t subscribe to the view that Irish has to mean nationalist. I do accept that there may be a lack of respect for the Irish (fellow or otherwise) of a different political outlook, but again, that’s their look out. And that’s something we can argue/persuade against – Not whether they are Irish or not.

"Take a leaf out of Lord Laird's Ulster Scots book. Clear and to the point. Not Irish, Scottish. Just been living in Ireland for the last 300 years and always will."

Whatever about the criticisms that Laird Lord may or may not deserve for his personal idiosyncracies, this is just a nonsense argument. Is Liam Logan, the presenter of the Ulster Scots radio programme and Westminster candidate for the SDLP not an Irish nationalist because he enthuses about the Ulster -Scots culture?

"I would like to know what kind of Irish pride does a British-Irish person have if they appear to have nothing but contempt for the values, symbols, culture, leaders, political system of your bog-standard Irish person "

Again pure nonsense, and this from a nationalism that airbrushed the British irish identity out of existence wherever it could- in Kingstown, Queenstown , Maryborough, SAackville Street, Rutland Square, King Street etc etc; and which still comes up with great ideas like getting rid of all the green postboxes with royal crests on them.Less than 20 years ago the War memorial at Phoenix park was an overgrown ruin, because it didn't suit irish nationalism to admit that there was a large Irish enrolment in the British army

What respect is there for the symbols, culture and leaders of British ireland on this thread? Nothing but sneering at Northern Ireland's achievements in football- still greater than the Republic's BTW, and from a smaller base too. Oh, and I think people forget who won the last time we played. We're proud of the achievements of the irish people who built the british nation- like Wellington, Kitchener, Montgomery, and Alanbrooke. We're proud of the British Irish scientists like Kelvin, inventors like Ferguson, Dunlop, Pantridge; proud of our American cousins like Jackson, Grant, Wilson, and a dozen other Presidnets and leaders (we'll exclude Clinton if you please); proud of philanthropists like Hans Sloane; proud of sportsmen like Peter Doherty, Pat Jennings, Danny Blanchflower, and George Best; shucks, some of us even like Van Morrison.

It's not the British -Irish that took a narrow nationalistic approach of exclusivity as the basis for a national ethos. The Republic of Ireland can never aspire to the achievements of that section of the irish people that it has patronised and ignored since 1921- when it wasn't persecuting it or discriminating against it that is. And the reason george and others demonise us is the same reason people always do- he's insecure in his own identity and fearful of the threatening alternative - which is that all of the RoI- a few sandal wearing Gaelgoirs in Kerry excepted- is West Britain now.

smcgiff,

unionism can articulate where Northern Irishness fits into the overall concept of Britishness but seems incapable of articulating how its Northern Irishness fits into the overall concept of Irishness. Cue the "that's because there's no place for us in the Irish nation" mope.

The British population of NI despises Irishness to such a degree that none of its parties mention the word "Irish" anywhere in their literature and the leader of the unionist people refuses to condone shaking the hand of the leader of the Irish people.

It celebrates burning the Irish flag and cultural symbols on an annual basis and pedals lies and myths about the perversity and inferiority of the Irish nation, culture and people at every turn.

This is the unpalatable truth that fair-minded unionists try gloss over by plamassing us by saying they are Irish but different and we have to adapt and change to accommodate them.

Difference based on respect I can handle, difference based on hatred and a perceived superiority I cannot.

Sure they can call themselves Irish just like others can call themselves freedom fighters.

But I won't adapt my moral compass so that these views and attitudes are happily paraded by all as Irish.

'pedals lies and myths about the perversity and inferiority of the Irish nation, culture and people at every turn.'

Not to belittle it, but that's just preaching to the converted. It's their way of reinforcing 'self'. Nobody else believes it. As mentioned earlier on this thread its to do with insecurity.

Such bile (not just in NI) is going to exist as long as man draws breath.

"This is the unpalatable truth that fair-minded unionists try gloss over by plamassing us by saying they are Irish but different and we have to adapt and change to accommodate them."

No one is telling you anything, you can adapt and accomodate, or you can perpetuate the hostility, it's u to you.

"Difference based on respect I can handle, difference based on hatred and a perceived superiority I cannot."

Well, by the same token, I can't be expected to cater for your paranoid notion that my sense of identity is based upon a feeling of superiority over you or nyone else.
Literaly my while life I've been told by nationalists that I feel superior to them, all it has done is convince me that some of them feel insecure.

I know it sounds like common sense, but why don't you stop telling us what we think and feel, and start listening to what we say?

'The Republic of Ireland can never aspire to the achievements of that section of the irish people that it has patronised and ignored since 1921'

It's comments like that, Darth, that make me wonder if you're allowed up to watch the 10 o'clock news.

And for the record.

Slugger is about as fair and representative a cross slice of opinion on this island one can find.

Looking over the thread as a whole, where is the hostility and attacks on another culture coming from?
Is it from Unionists belittling Ireland?

I don't think it is.

Wake up and smell the nationalist bile.

Tafkabo,

Let me introduce you to Darth, you seem to have glossed over his contribution.

Darth,
Every street in the England and Scotland had to change its main street to Union Street in 1771 but that kind of airbrushing of local identity is fine while changing a handful of names out of tens of thousands post independence makes Ireland a cold house. This is the type of myth pedalling that unionists live on.

Let's look at Dun Laoghaire (Kingstown) where my family have lived for nigh on 200 years since coming over as part of the British military machine and settling in with the settlers.

Name of Dun Laoghaire main street? George's Street after King George.

Here are the streets off it. Some of these names might sound familiar.

Adelaide, Wellington, Suffolk, Marine, Patrick, Library, Northumberland, Crofton, Convent. A lot of airbrushing there alright.

By the way, King Street and Queen Street are both still in Dublin while Sackville Place is also just off O'Connell Street.

But you believe your myths.

"which still comes up with great ideas like getting rid of all the green postboxes with royal crests on them."

The royal crest postboxes are still all over the country and it is antique thieves who are removing them not the government.

Or are you saying it's just incompetence that has resulted in them still being here over 80 years after independence or is this slow airbrushing Irish style?

If a post box is all you value wow.

As for the War Memorial, there is nothing glorious about remembering an army that executed Irish soldiers on a whim and has yet to apologise (don't see the unionists even asking) not to mention the attack on the democratic rights of a small nation - Ireland. But you believe it's the Irish state that has to reform its views when it comes to the military and not the British one.

Why?

There is a difference between remembrance of the folly of war and glorifying it. The Irish state remembers the folly. They didn't die for the freed of this small nation unfortunately.

One of the greatest achievements of the Irish Republic is that it has ended the tradition of Irish military families going to fight and die for the British Empire.

Peacekeeping yes, war no. If to accommodate Northern Irishness means to glorify meaningless slaughter of poor men by the tens of thousand then sorry there's no room.

Any other myths about Kingstown you'd like me to debunk?

SMcGIFF

Nope, I read his contribution within the context of the thread as a whole.
I think it's a perfectly understandable and valid reaction to the unprovoked and inexplanable attacks that preceded it.

'I think it's a perfectly understandable and valid reaction to the unprovoked and inexplanable attacks that preceded it.'

That comes across as ‘defending your own', and by saying valid you agree with it.

The fact he refers to the above luminaries, and he could add numerous more, such as Swift/Conan Doyle etc, in the context of superiority 'can never aspire to the achievements' is very telling.

To be such a luminary of that time one would have to have gone to university. Look long and hard at the time in question and tell me how Catholics could possibly get a look in.

It is such cases of distinction, rather than superiority, that argues the cause as to why 1922 had to come about.

Wasn't Kelvin Scottish? As for Wellington...

'Lord Kelvin was born as William Thomsen in Belfast, Ireland, in 1824.' - Googled.

George

There just doesn't seem to be room for Irish people and what they hold dear in the Irish pride that NI British people seem to talk about so often. The Irish tricolour is a rag to be burnt at every unionist cultural opportunity, the Irish national anthem an offensive piece of sectarian dirge, Irish national sports no more than a sectarian cesspit occupied by unfit papes, the Irish state a terrorist-appeasing haven, a corrupt, pathetic excuse for a nation, its leader not worthy of the respect of a handshake, the ancient Irish language the tool of terrorists, a ranting speak not worthy of merit.

You shouldn't judge everyone by the actions and words of a few. Very poor, George. Very poor.

You'd be well-advised to relax, and adopt a more liberal and open mind when it comes to matters of identity.

If the British people of NI mean they are proud of their Hiberno-Britishness fine but don't use the term Irish because it just confuses the millions of people who consider themselves Irish on this island.

If non-British-Irish people are confused by the concept of an Irishness that is all-inclusive, then that is their problem. I will not deny my Irishness because of the narrow-mindedness of such people.

Headmelter

Has it?

Yes.

my last visit was over 14 years ago when sectarian chants were the predominant theme so if it has been eradicated I can only take your word for it if it has.

You obviously no nothing of the changes that have taken place in that time. Sadly you continue to judge today based on events of 14 years ago. Go to the next match and see for yourself.

Why wouldn't I be, what part of this statement is not true?

Er, the bit about being "occupied by a foreign power" is not true! The rest is rather extreme opinion! LOL! Dear me, you sound like Patrick Pearse or Rory O'Brady!

If you read all of my posts in context it the venue was a contributing factor of many. Try not to be so selective.

You stated that the venue was the reason you would not attend. Only after you were challenged did you bring up other reasons (e.g. not recognising NI and things associated with it).

No, Dec, Kelvin wasn't Scottish.

'No, Dec, Kelvin wasn't Scottish.'

Born in Ireland.

George

You obviously missed the recent NI v ROI under 21 game in Lurgan. An admittedly small number of ROI fans mingled with the NI fans. They sat in the stands with us during the game. No offence was caused to anyone. NI fans have moved into the 21st century after an admittedly difficult time. It's time their detractors did as well.

BTW, the game finished 2 - 2 , courtesy of a dubious penalty awarded to ROI.

Lord Kelvin was pre-Queens. He went to Glasgow University and later based himself there. He was an Ulsterman and his statue is in Botannic Gardens, Belfast. He was an early example of Ulster student crossing the water. More do it today, albeit usually with lesser academic outcomes.

Interesting challenges to my Irishness by George, Maca and Headmelter.

The arrogance, intolerance and inability to accept anything other that a mono cultural, myopic view of Irishness is summed up in this comment:

"If the British people of NI mean they are proud of their Hiberno-Britishness fine but don't use the term Irish because it just confuses the millions of people who consider themselves Irish on this island."

Your dead right it "confuses" them...until it does not confuse them, we go round and round in circles.

You see, I was born on this island (as where my forefathers), I raise a family on this island, I work on this island, I socialise on this island...but yet some have the temerity to suggest that I do not belong to this island.

I can and do express my Irishness in many ways.

I am Northern Irish, British & Irish...simple as that.

What is quite fascinating, and deeply troublesome to nationalists/republicans is this question.

If you truly wish to "unite" Ireland and all it's people, how do you intend to incorporate the Britishness of 1,000,000 inhabitants of Northern Ireland...What kind of future do you want with your unionist/British co-inhabitants of this island?

You have never sought the views of the very people you say you wish to unite with...the Northern Irish/British/Irish unionists who are not going away.

Methods of persuasion to date have included death, destruction and demonising of a different Irish culture...Time to deal with the difficult questions - ones that ain't going away either.

The Northern Ireland football team transcends such politics...It's a team that comes from many and varied backgrounds. That is something I am proud off.

"By the way, King Street and Queen Street are both still in Dublin"

King Street in Cork is now Macurtain Street. The world exists beyond Dublin you know! And yes I do know there's a Protestant Row in Dublin too.
Oh, and tell us about the fine monument to a British monarch still cherished in Kingstown by the locals.

And so you kept a lot of the place names- not a bit of wonder, given they were in everyday use and the locals probably didn't want to change them- you know, like in Dingle. Hardly a gesture of parity of esteem, just a recognition of the limitations of brainwashing. Wasn't there a serious attempt to rename the county of Donegal Tyrconnall or somesuch in the 1930s because the place name is "the fort of the foreigners" in English- hardly appropriate for a pure Irish race?

I'm not saying my culture is necessarily superior to yours, s mcgiff, but it's certainly far from inferior, and far from the "Lord Laird's a planter" smear of George the "oh so guilty he makes Martin Mansergh look like Billy Wright" type of anglo-Irish who's probably embarassed his great grandaddy was in all likelihood a Unionist. Or he could be proud of that strain of Irishness as a different and cherished part of the patchwork of the nation ( in his view) Mary McAleese could teach a few southerners a thing or two about that, for all her shortcomings.

Of course, s mcgiff, George and I could both take equal pride in the immense achievements of the British-Irish, if only he recognised them as a valid part of the Irish tradition. It's just that he can't- they haven't "gone native" like he has but are squalid colonials, looking down on the locals after 300 years .

And that brings us back to the failure to recognise NI the football team or NI the constitutional entity- in spite of the Belfast Agreement. In 1982, I remember many decent minded southerners congratulating Bingy's Boys for their achievements in Spain, and I guarantee most people will do so again when we win the World Cup in 2010, beating England 3-0 in the Final. But Robin Livingstone won't, and George won't. The fact that "we exist" is too bitter a pill to swallow.

If he wants to stereotype and belittle British Irishness as a UVF bonfire up a loyalist estate on the 11th night, he proves my point, and his ignorance is fair game. He can't handle the fact that we are " no petty people". Even Yeats- not a Unionist- finally saw irish nationalism for what it was.

I suppose Pat Jennings, Martin O'Neill & Gerry Armstrong to name but three Northern Ireland legends aren't really true "Irish" either.

Sighs despairingly.

Realist
"Interesting challenges to my Irishness by George, Maca and Headmelter."

It was a fair question, one which you didn't answer.

"I am Northern Irish, British & Irish...simple as that."

Again, what is this "Irish", and is that not just "N.Irish"?
I ask because I am not aware of any "Irish" identity which is not either Northern Irish or Irish (from or relating to the Irish state). So what is it?

maca,

I am Irish by virtue of the fact that I was born and bred on the island of Ireland.

Could you more clearly define your comment "from or relating to the Irish state"?

Pardon my confusion, but are you saying that I am not Irish?

Is Nothern Ireland not really Irish?

I thought the clue was in the name.

"I ask because I am not aware of any "Irish" identity which is not either Northern Irish or Irish (from or relating to the Irish state)."

Have you heard of American Irish?, London Irish?

Realist
"I am Irish by virtue of the fact that I was born and bred on the island of Ireland."

Personally I don't believe in any of these geographic identities. Irish, like British can't be simply "geographic" in my opinion, and there's no "Irish" identity we can all subscribe to, IMHO.

"Could you more clearly define your comment "from or relating to the Irish state"?

What's unclear about it?

"Pardon my confusion, but are you saying that I am not Irish?"

As i've already said, it was a question, not a statement.

"Is Nothern Ireland not really Irish?"

You said yourself, the clue is in the name.
But you described yourself as N.Irish, British & Irish. I just wanted to know what this other Irish was if it's not N.Irish.

TAF
"Have you heard of American Irish?, London Irish?"

French Irish, Swedish Irish, whatever. We're talking about identities which in general apply to those from this island. Try to stay with it.

"French Irish, Swedish Irish, whatever. We're talking about identities which in general apply to those from this island."

Are we?, where was that decided?, and who the fuck put you in charge of what we discuss?

Uh, that last post of mine sounded a lot more aggressive than I meant it.
Apologies if I offended anyone.

"I suppose Pat Jennings, Martin O'Neill & Gerry Armstrong to name but three Northern Ireland legends aren't really true "Irish" either."

Realist

northern ireland legend Pat Jennings was probably more worried about the sectarian abuse he was receiving at Windsor Park throughout his playing career.The northern ireland fans made their feelings crystal clear to Pat and i doubt he was able to forget who and what he was.

It's sad the Neil Lennon situation," he said. "For me there is no room for sectarianism in football, but if he's receiving threats what else can he do?
It's just crazy and I experienced it right through my international career as a Catholic. I got a fair bit of stick, probably because I was closer to the support than any of the other players.
"Neil's always been a good player, it's sad that it's worse because he plays for Celtic. The last lad, Anton Rogan, got similar stick."

Darth,

In your above post you've made both George's argument and it's response. I'll leave George to answer the particulars. However,

'if only he recognised them as a valid part of the Irish tradition.'

I don't remember George disowning anyone. Unless there were some that held themselves to be exclusively British - How proud was Wellington to be from the auld sod?

'Even Yeats- not a Unionist- finally saw irish nationalism for what it was.'

He may not have been to happy with the Free State post British rule (bedeviled with unrequited love as he was), but he remained a nationalist.

Something from earlier that I couldn't resist...

'which is that all of the RoI... is West Britain now.'

It's similarity to Britain stems from the shared influence the ROI and UK receive from the US. What was that film lately again, oh yeah, 51st State! ;-)

I'd go further and surmise that the ROI is less British now than it's ever been. With its main external influence coming from the US, dude, and then from the EU and the UK. But even then, the influence is not only one way.

Re-above myriad external influences adopted by the ROI. I like to think of this as...

Supermarket colonialisation by Consent! :-)

'Uh, that last post of mine sounded a lot more aggressive than I meant it.
Apologies if I offended anyone.

On behalf of those that will be inheriting this planet any day now, you're forgiven!

Now, two Hail Mary's and an Our Father (and you know the version I mean!) *Said in Homer Simson voice as he strangle's Bart*

Willowfield,

'You obviously no nothing of the changes that have taken place in that time. Sadly you continue to judge today based on events of 14 years ago. Go to the next match and see for yourself.'

The Neil Lennon incident was much more recent than 14 yrs ago but if you've got a ticket for the next match I would be happy to attend in the interests of comparing the 'new' atmosphere at Windsor pk to that of 14 yrs ago.

Er, the bit about being "occupied by a foreign power" is not true!

Er your opinion I feel.

"The Irish tricolour is a rag to be burnt at every unionist cultural opportunity, the Irish national anthem an offensive piece of sectarian dirge, Irish national sports no more than a sectarian cesspit occupied by unfit papes, the Irish state a terrorist-appeasing haven, a corrupt, pathetic excuse for a nation, its leader not worthy of the respect of a handshake, the ancient Irish language the tool of terrorists, a ranting speak not worthy of merit."

George, the very fact that these are referred to as "the Irish national anthem", and "the Irish state" shows part of the problem. There are 2 Irish states. One misleadingly refers to itself as Ireland (did someone say imperialist?) and one does not.

Your Irish national anthem is not my type of Irish.