Is this what Paisley, Empey, LoveUlster, the OO and paramilitaries were hinting at?

If so why did they not make vocal calls for the OO to postpone the parade (as before) when it was clear it wasn't going the prefered route? Did they wake up this morning knowing this was the afternoon and evening (and god knows what else) we had in store?

They didn't make any last minute appeals? To anyone?

Or were they threatening 'peaceful protest'?

Translink have cancelled all nightlink buses, and all city buses passing through North Belfast. All Ulsterbus services passing through North Belfast have been redirected along the M2.

I hope the government and police wake the hell up to this nonsense and put a stop to it once and for all.

Shore road closed as it passes Mount Vernon and Fort William Drive closed at the same point. Reports of attempted car jacking up here. Saw a bus ablaze in the road (in Tigers Bay) at about 6.30pm. In other parts of the UK civil disorder on this scale is met with gaol sentences of 3 years plus - about time they started to do the same here.

Posting as I am from the heart of the Shankill, I can say that no bus or black taxi has been up the road since around 2.00pm. Almost all the shops on the road have closed since about 4.00pm when news of the rioting on the West Circular reached this end of the road. Even bars and the Shankill Rangers Supporters Club are closed tonight. There are very few cars on the road.

As I write, I can hear a helicopter flying low overhead. I have heard blast bombs going off in the last half hour, but I have no intention of going out to find out where. When I went out an hour ago there were large crowds of men and youths and some women at every corner. The atmosphere is very tense.

All the people I have spoken too are very angry that the Orangemen have been denied their rights. Others reporting from the frontline claim that the PSNI attacked a peaceful parade with plastic bullets and water cannons. Rumours circulating on the road claim that one young lad has had an eye put out with a plastic bullet. Another is believed to have been shot through the neck and is feared to have died.

People too, are annoyed that their streets seem to have been taken over by a bunch of yahoos who will cause mayhem and inconvenience to 'their own', Shankill residents - 'shitting in our own nest and dragging the name of loyalism through the gutter' as one woman put it to me. As another put it to me, 'the peelers started it but there's no excuse for this'.

Those of us who can't run fast, or want to live in peace and quiet will just have to lock and bolt our front doors and hope that there's not too much devastation in the morning.

Albertbridge road is now open after earlier rioting, army technical officers dealt with 2 unexploded pipe bombs

Hardly a car on the road, avoid if possible

Belfast Dissenter, that's an interesting account.

"The peelers started it". Of course they did. Recreational policing obviously.

I hope you are safe, and that law and be restored.

But we need a high volume of prosecutions and stiff sentences following today's violence.

"dragging the name of loyalism through the gutter"

I must admit I almost thought you were serious up to there.

"All the people I have spoken too are very angry that the Orangemen have been denied their rights. "

Why ? It sounds more to me like the Orange Order attempted to use the threat of violence to get their way. I thought it was only the republicans who did that kind of thing. Don't tell me unionists are doing it too ?

"Others reporting from the frontline claim that the PSNI attacked a peaceful parade with plastic bullets and water cannons."

Do you really think people will believe that the police moved against a completely peaceful parade ? Given the police injuries and blast bombs, yet the absence of reported injuries among protestors or Orangemen, do you really buy into the argument about who really started the violence ?

" .... the PSNI attacked a peaceful parade with plastic bullets and water cannons."

Whatever happened to Protestants questioning what they were being told. Is our thought-police influence now endemic and cross-community?

Ive just heard some more shots and what sounds like petrol bombs. I can also hear shouts and jeering from the Shankill end of the street, not foregtting the incessant helicopter overhead.

GavBelfast, Jimmy Sands and Comrade Stalin, just trying to give an account from the eye of the storm - 'the word on the street'. In the current fraught atmosphere it's probably best not to challenge such apparent frontline reports. It's all very well doing it on Slugger O'Toole. I'm certainly not going to do it in the middle of a big angry mob on the Shankill Road. I still have to live here!

I expect though that the PSNI is giving the media its accounts of injuries sustained by its constables. I doubt if the UVF is doing likewise.
As I said before, rumours are circulating on the Shankill that one young man may have been killed by the PSNI. I do hope that this is a exaggeration.

Citybeat news at 10.00 reports cars set ablaze at Agnes Street which is less than five minutes walk from my house. Apparently Iceland has been attacked too. Even if the PSNI did attack a peaceful parade this is hardly the fault of the car owners or Iceland.

This road has come up a bit in recent months with new shops, cafes and businesses opening. Now it's all going up in smoke. Talk about shitting in the nest all right! Is it any wonder I get depressed?

BD, apologies - I'm fortunate not to live in the midst of that (I'm elsewhere in North Belfast, but still staying well out of harms way tonight obviously). Please keep posting your reports, they're certainly better than nothing, and the news networks don't seem to be keeping up to date with things.

I agree that it's depressing. The Northern Ireland/England result earlier in the week was a high note. I guess I was too optimistic by thinking that one really nice event that people from all communities could rally round was spurned in the way that it has been.

Citybeat is now issuing news bulletins on the hour and the half hour. The 11.00pm bulletin claims that the Shankill is now calm and quiet. It doesn't sould like that to me. There now seem to be three helicopters in the air and there still seem to be lots of people on the street.

would you loyalists not think it better to go home to scotland, your own country and leave ireland alone.
more importantly in peace.

No doubt they'll all read this and be on the first ferry to Stranraer in the morning...

*sheesh*

Have I missed something, somewhere? If you're talking to me, I don't call myself a loyalist but leaving that aside you think that I have to go 'home' to a country I have never lived in. Does that mean you similarly want the Irish in Scotland to come back 'home' to Ireland?

How are we going to work this out? Am I to swap this Shankill terrace for a Glasgow tenement? Be realistic. Large-scale ethnic transfers are a non-starter. However, after the depressing events in this area tonight I'm bribeable. Just deposit £350k in my bank account and I'll go 'home' in the morning!

A more realistic solution would be for the Irish to get out of Ulster - I know there ain't much support for nordies down south but I'm sure they'd get used to you.

I don't live in the town anymore but have to go to work in some of the hotspots early tomorrow could someone give me the frequency of city beat for news and traffic reports or will radio ulster be sufficient.

I would ring your local police exchange and ask them - after 1.00 am this morning, there's no local news on radio until Downtown at 7am (1026 MW).

No doubt daybreak will tell its own grim tale.

The police and army have been fired upon in several places and at regular intervals tonight, and had blast bombs and the rest rained-down on them.

If someone did that to me, as a private citizen, and I shot them, I would mostly likely be regarded as acting in self-defence.

So let's not have the usual (though this time "loyalist") chorus of heavy-handedness against the security forces.

Am I alone in wanting to hear of a huge volume of detainees as well? That would be a start.

Thanks Gav.

gav

'get off my land'

Private citizen

Your aving a laff

"As I said before, rumours are circulating on the Shankill that one young man may have been killed by the PSNI. I do hope that this is a exaggeration."

I don't. We could do with losing a few of the scumbags out rioting from the country's gene pool.

"Several police have been injured and a civilian shot" is all the BBC says. They only mention plastic bullets and water cannons from the police side though.

I take great pleasure from the fact that I refused to be intimidated by the rioting scum last night and went into the city centre for an enjoyable meal and then met up with friends for some drinks. This was despite the fact that a local taxi firm refused to cross from east Belfast into the centre and other warnings about not going out.

Fuck these bastards - they won't stop me enjoying my life.

The only downer was so many taxis refusing to take people to east Belfast. We ended up having to bribe one £10 to take us home - we saw no rioting on the way, only broken glass.

So-called "loyalists" are scum. I support the right to parade, but to engage in such vicious violence in response to the banning or re-routing of a parade is disproportionate in the extreme and totally unjustifiable on any grounds. Such violence actually serves to erode sympathy from the likes of me for the Orangemen and their supporters.

And apologetic comments by unionist politicians, while no doubt done for fear of losing votes in working-class communities, will only serve to lose votes within moderate opinion (or fail to win them back).

It is political cowardice in the extreme by unionist (and nationalist) politicians who refuse to condemn outright such behavour, without condition and without reference to events that are perceived to excuse the violence.

On the issue of parading - why have neither the loyal orders, nor the unionist parties - pursued the matter as a human rights issue? Why has the Parades Commission not been taken to court on grounds of breaching human rights? The failure to do this is also eroding my sympathies.

"would you loyalists not think it better to go home to scotland, your own country and leave ireland alone"

A disgusting comment.

I am a unionist.

I was born and bred in Belfast, Northern Ireland...which forms part of the island of Ireland.

In fact, my family going back gererations were born on the island of Ireland.

I live here, work here and raise a family here.

I am "home".

Not much sleep last night. I went for a walk outside down the Shankill Road this morning. Scenes of devastation everywhere.

Recovery men were hoisting a burntout van onto a lorry outside the Rose of Sharon cafe. There were the unmistakeable signs that a burning vehicle had also been placed across the corner with Tennent Street. A burntout minibus, van and private car lay outside the West Kirk, another car across the Crimea Street junction and three vans around the Iceland supermarket and a Belfast City Council outside Fonzerelli's icecream parlour.

The front entrance of Iceland is quite badly scorched and the sign has melted. It looks like a burning vehicle was rammed into the shutters.

The whole surface of the road from Agnes Street to Lanark Way was covered in broken glass and rubble. What a mess!

During last night's rioting gangs of men went down my own street, breaking the locks on the petrol tanks of parked cars and siphoning the fuel for molotov cocktails. Residents are not exactly thrilled at this. The damn stuff's dear enough at the minute and replacement caps don't come cheap either. I don't doubt that the same thing happened in other streets up and down the road.

Time to go and get some supplies in as it looks like we're in for another long night

How can these scenes of anarchy be stopped, BD?

Citybeat can be found on 96.7MHz FM. Its on-the-hour bulletins are complementary to those on Radio Ulster.

Listen live online here

Belfast Dissenter, your reports are an invaluable insight, thank you. Is there a general feeling that the serious trouble will resume tonight ?

Willowfield, thank you for those comments. It is unequivocal language like yours that will lead to the solution here. The mealy mouthed quasi-condemnations coming from politicians will not. I might add, that the utter silence of nationalists on suggesting solutions to this matter is disgraceful too. Sinn Fein are clearly still too wrapped up in their opposition to the police or army to call for a robust response to this problem - they're afraid of being seen to be hypocritical.

Willowfield

"On the issue of parading - why have neither the loyal orders, nor the unionist parties - pursued the matter as a human rights issue? Why has the Parades Commission not been taken to court on grounds of breaching human rights? The failure to do this is also eroding my sympathies."

This is an interesting point. I beleive that unionists are so wary of the term human rights and how it has been hijacked/misused, that we have failed to see that it can be used a) hijacked back for our purposes and b) more importantly, actually developed into what it should be about for and being blind to constitutional identity.

I'm glad you managed to have a good night. My sence of celebration since the high of Wednesday has taken a bashing with all this.

I don't know the details of this parade but I could see a scenario where I would have responded to a call to be part of a peaceful protest (as long as the call made that clear and specifically excluded the "loyalist" terrorists from the invitation - learning the lessons from Dumcree and from the launch of the Love Ulster Campaign). If despite this rioting broke out, I could well fond myself being set on by the rioters as I tryed to restrain them (although the reality of my extreme physical cowardice would also come into play)

Let's nail a lie: there is no absolute right to march.

Therefore, all this talk about Orangemen being denied their rights is total bunkum.

Do republicans on the Springfield Road have an absolute right to march across the peaceline into neigbouring areas?

The scenes currently playing out on the streets of Belfast show that it's not the IRA, it's not the dublin government, it's not Tony Blair and it's not the RIR; it's the complete and utter lack of effective and positive political leadership, that is the root cause of the loyalist malaise.

The DUP-promised Shangri-La of a return to a past that never was is now exposed, they can't stop 'concessions to Republicans', or get rid of the Parades Commission, they can't humiliate Sinn Fein (you don't have the power to humiliate anyone but yourselves anymore chaps and chapesses) and they can't save the RIR...

My advice to the aimless and disconnected shower now leading unionism: tell your people straight that this is the way things are, and that they can be part of a new beginning, or fester and rot in a imagined past.

Or have you ridden the Tiger for so long now, that you are afraid to get off. Judging from the events of the past two days, I can see where you're coming from.

If anyone from the Orange Order is reading this, then think back to the murder of the Quinn children in 1998.

In the coming days the utter contempt for your organisation and public anger at your so-called leadership will be as great as, if not greater than it was in those dark days.

And you deserve it - your organisation is deserving of our opprobrium and our contempt - for your shameful appeal to the worst elements in society and your sickening cowardliness when the violence erupted.

Let's nail a lie: there is no absolute right to march. Therefore, all this talk about Orangemen being denied their rights is total bunkum.

No rights are absolute: they are all conditional, and can all be curtailed. The Orangemen's right have been curtailed - the issue is whether that curtailment is justified or not: not whether or not the right exists in the first place.

Do republicans on the Springfield Road have an absolute right to march across the peaceline into neigbouring areas?

No-one has an absolute right to do anything. However, "republicans" from anywhere have the right to march wherever they wish unless there are reasonable grounds for curtailing that right.

I've posted this on the other relevant threads as well.

I think that with the finer points we have been debating we are in danger of obscuring the concensus that there appears to be on this issue - another case of heated agreement.

It seems to me and I'm sure that I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, that whatever we think per se about the OO, unionist politicians, unionists in general, the Belfast Agreement or anything else, there seems to be a consensus that :-

the rioting was not in any way justified and that we would like to see the rioters subject the the full force of whatever the Criminal Justice System is capable of throwing at them

Unsurprisingly, no buses on the Shankill today. I strolled through the scenes of devastation down to the city centre this afternoon. Evidence of burntout vehicles outside the Diamond Jubilee bar and KFC so it looks like the UDA didn't want to be left out of the mayhem stakes.

I noticed that the recently vacated former First Trust Bank was wrecked and the Probation Board offices have been petrol-bombed, ransacked and looted.

"How can these scenes of anarchy be stopped?"

I'm tempted to say savage repression. I hear that Saddam Hussein is out of a job.

Seriously though, there really is an intense sense of alienation in the working class Protestant community. Hence the strong showing of the DUP in recent elections and the Love Ulster campaign from my local newspaper, the Shankill Mirror.

The No 9 District LOL knows this is true, so it can't just do a Pontius Pilate act when it asks disaffected folk to come out in their support. The OO officers should remember that it's easier to bring mobs onto the streets than it is to send them home again. The mobs on the street have no more respect for the WM of No 9 District, local politicians, and even paramiltary hardmen than they have for the Chief Constable of the PSNI.

As for the UVF and UDA, for years they have claimed to have been used by politicians and discarded when they stepped out of line or outlived their usefulness. They don't seem to have learned from this experience. Perhaps a few years in clink will remind them.

“Republicans from anywhere have the right to march wherever they wish unless there are reasonable grounds for curtailing that right”

Interesting WF, if a scenario were to arise where say a Republican rally were being held at the Dunville park and Republicans from the upper Springfield wanted to march to the park via the Springfield Rd [in an almost carbon copy situation of the OO march on the Springfield] would you support curtailment of that right to march on the reasonable assumption that they would have to pass the small stretch of the road from the Ballygomartn to the West Circular Rds which is perceived to be Protestant /Unionist /Loyalist and may cause offence to the people that populate that area?.

Belfast Dissenter
Many thanks for your blogging. You can't deal with a problem if you don't know the reality on the ground.

Willowfield 12:27
How can these scenes be stopped?
Erudite as usual. The people voted for the DUP and SF in large numbers. Ask them!

we drove past the albertbridge road this morning; which looks remarkably like a war zone. church services have been cancelled on templemore ave and probably other churches also. these sad little thugs who riot (so brave they cover their faces with scarves) need to get lives, grow up, wise up and actually do something productive with their lives. is it any wonder alot of young people leave NI every year and never come back?

i wonder how the orange men and loyalists would feel if nationalists decided to have a march through a loyalist area? they'd be outraged and demand to have it re-routed...so what's the big flippin deal with re-routing loyalist marches. i am a protestant although of right now thoroughly ashamed to even been linked in any way shape or form to the thugs of last night.

perhaps a history/religious lesson would do them good - protestantism originated from martin luther - a catholic.

"I am a unionist.

I was born and bred in Belfast, Northern Ireland...which forms part of the island of Ireland.

In fact, my family going back gererations were born on the island of Ireland.

I live here, work here and raise a family here.

I am "home"."

Then perhaps you could encourage your brethren to treat their home with more respect, and stop behaving like a child who's parent has said no. Time to end the implacability and the tantrums and begin behaving like adults.

This violence, as any should be utterly condemned. But people should ask themselves - why is it happening?

The banning of the parade sparked it, but these riots form part of a wider issue.

The Unionist and Loyalist communities have lost respect for the police, the Labour Government, including Peter Hain and the whole political process overall.

It seems that where republicans do something wrong, they get a 'lolly pop' and reward regardless of their previous record. They are getting of with everything they have done in the past and even to the present - Northern Bank robbery, McCartney murder, Makro robbery - where people where held at gun point and locked in a room for many hours during the night. These where people out to do an honest days work unlike their robber's and the PSNI and Government have failed them.

The Government seems to implement rule of law when it suits them, and this always seems to exclude IRA/Sinn Fein.

The Government and PSNI are failing their own people.

Visoneer,

What do loyalists want ? Give me a list and let's talk about it.

What concessions have the republicans received ? Very little. They did not get the police disbanded. They are presently not serving in an NI government. Yes, they got their prisoners released, but then again unionists got their prisoners released.

"Then perhaps you could encourage your brethren to treat their home with more respect, and stop behaving like a child who's parent has said no. Time to end the implacability and the tantrums and begin behaving like adults.

Posted by: ainelivia at September 11, 2005 08:22 PM"

The people who you see on the TV 'ainelivia' represent the minority of the Unionist Community.

While people may feel what their feeling they do not believe that the solution to the problem is through violent activity. Thats one thing that the media do not make clear in their reports.

"Visoneer,

What do loyalists want ? Give me a list and let's talk about it.

What concessions have the republicans received ? Very little. They did not get the police disbanded. They are presently not serving in an NI government. Yes, they got their prisoners released, but then again unionists got their prisoners released.

Posted by: Comrade Stalin at September 11, 2005 08:27 PM"

You obviously haven't been listening to, to many Unionist politicans then since November 2003! And even before that.

You only have to look at the criminal activity such as the Makro robbery and NI Bank robbery. Was justice done?

And tell me this was it so painful to not let the Orangemen walk their route? A route that I am sure would not last nore than an hour?

The political process is on IRA/Sinn Fein's side, and not on the side of the Unionist majority.

I personally I am unsure, as a Unionist, whether I want to see a NI Government formed that includes IRA/Sinn Fein, they have had more than enough chances. They where supposed to renounce violence and disarm 5 years ago. Too little too late.

I am fed up with the way the process is going.

Was Sean Kelly's release legally justified? It was obviously legally justified to have him re-arrested in the first place. Surely the timely of his release was good timing?

Put yourself in the shoes of a Unionist for a day - would you be happy?

Visioneer
Do you have any idea how we might change the governments attitude to the Unionists?

Attacking the police and condeming the parades commission doesn't seem to a good plan.

Comrade Stalin: The RUC was disbanded.

What IRA/Sinn Fein want is ridiculous and completely unacceptable to any law bidding, tax paying and loyal citizen/or subject.

Their dream would have been to have an IRA style police force (which would be unaccountable).

The PSNI is by its own admittance - the most accountable police force in the World. However it is in my opinion, the most useless force in the fighting of local community issues.

There is also a hint that IRA/Sinn Fein are only playing politic's when not accepting the PSNI, the SDLP did and therefore it would be in their interests not to accept Patton compared to their rivals. It is the exact same reason why IRA/Sinn Fein did not accept the Nice or was it Masstrict treaty in the Republic. It was to differ from their rivals, it allowed them publicity.

Surely if IRA/Sinn Fein accepted Patton, or didn't even accept Patton and just took their seats on the Policing board and in the DPP's surely they would be alot more effective and successful in achieving everything that they moan about, howvever on the otherhand maybe not as they seem to be getting everything their way anyway.

But if IRA/Sinn Fein did sit on the Policing board et al., they would then even further accept the legitimacy of Northern Ireland and the rule of law. Accepting a NI Police force would further visably and theorectically accept partition, and also by accepting the legal status of a second and also British Police force on the island of Ireland and in Northern Ireland.

I think Sinn Fein will accept the legality of the PSNI soon, and the PSNI are trying to make them acceptable to their community by being 'lighthanded' with them.

"Attacking the police and condeming the parades commission doesn't seem to a good plan.

Posted by: Moderate Unionist at September 11, 2005 08:49 PM"

Never said that it was a good plan, particularly on the issue of violence. No violence can be justified.

Talking is obviously the prefered option. However talking to the other community and Parades commission doesn't seem to be doing alot of good. But that doesn't mean that people should resort to violence, and let me reitorate my previous point - the violence that has and is occuring, as it seems to be the case tonight is only being organised and committed by the minority.

"You only have to look at the criminal activity such as the Makro robbery and NI Bank robbery. Was justice done?"

Is this really why loyalists are rioting ?

"The political process is on IRA/Sinn Fein's side, and not on the side of the Unionist majority."

You still haven't explained why you believe this.

"And tell me this was it so painful to not let the Orangemen walk their route? A route that I am sure would not last nore than an hour?"

Why was it so painful to reroute by 100 yards ? This kind of argument gets us nowhere.

"Was Sean Kelly's release legally justified? "

Was Michael Stone's ?

You still haven't listed to me what I would describe as really serious grievances. The concessions we're talking about - a minor parade deviation here, a single prisoner release there - amounts to small change. The way you are talking, you'd think thousands of Protestants were being put out of work or houses, or that entire loyalist housing estates were getting raized to the ground. Instead you think you're hard done by because the government dares to force you to understand that you can't get your own way 100% of the time.

However talking to the other community and Parades commission doesn't seem to be doing a lot of good.

Visioneer

Well it seemed to work in Derry.

"I think Sinn Fein will accept the legality of the PSNI soon, and the PSNI are trying to make them acceptable to their community by being 'lighthanded' with them. "

What nonsense - the PSNI are being lighthanded all round. The most serious rioting for years and they've made two arrests. Do you call that a robust response to illegal behaviour ?

As far as I know the Orange Order still aren't talking either to the Parades Commission or the residents. So unless I've misunderstood, the point seems to start from a false presumption.

""Was Sean Kelly's release legally justified? "

Was Michael Stone's ?"

This is two nil not one all!

What an amazing piece by Visioneer. Loyalists chucked blast bombs and opened fire on the cops, because the cops were mistreated by Patton.

You've lost me somewhere a long way back, dude.

The orange orders response to Hugh Orde's statement

"The Orange Order said it noted the Chief Constable's 'intemperate, inflammatory and inaccurate remarks' and accused the police of being heavy handed and engaged in policing at its worst."

Mr Orde produced police film footage at his press conference showing Orange Order members confronting police with ceremonial swords.

Comrade Stalin:

Through community forums. The Orange Order is talking with people through these groups, maybe not officially, but unoffically. And yes, Dec, such talks as these did see results in Londonderry.

Unionists never seem to get their way, its always Republicans and Irish Nationalists getting their way. As soon as the IRA release their hollow statement of words, what happens, everything moves in their direction.

Comrade Stalin: you've maybe missed my point. The release of Sean Kelly and all those recent things I talked about are all contributry things on top of the loads of other concessions to include the disbandment of the RUC, RIR, large scale dismilitarisation programmes occuring only by taking the Republican movement on their word. How many other times have the Government and Unionists taken Republican Sinn Fein on their word only to see their actions fall short of the line.

How can the Unionist community trust these people? I say NEVER!

I do wonder Comrade Stalin if you would be saying this - "What nonsense - the PSNI are being lighthanded all round. The most serious rioting for years and they've made two arrests." - if it was Republicans rioting last night? I suspect you could say the opposite and claim 'brutality'.

Anyway, I do not believe that the PSNI are not using similar measures that they would use in any other Country. The PSNI do use light handed force in any riot situation here, now. But the point I was making is that they are particularly light handed with the Republican Community, look at the 12th this year - what was it ... 60 or 80 officers injured? And this was a result of Republican rioting. I remember at the time Gerry Adams & Co. claiming brutality and heavy handedness, however the SDLP's Alex Attwood disputed that claim. Last night, 6 officers where injured, which is highly remarkable given the situation - as you put it "the worst rioting for years" - although that is probably the case.

The Unionist community see their country falling apart.

Should the Orange Order not consider decommissioning ceremonial swords ?

There would off course have to be photographic evidence, for varification

I am in no way justifing the violence, I am just trying to create some understanding into why it is happening.

Any violence should be condemned Loyalist or otherwise and I would hope that the people commenting, here, on my views would be as talkative as they are being, if this was Republicans rioting. I would hope that those of you would condemn any sort of violence, by any group. Otherwise your just as bad as those rioting.

Anger over something should not be taken out on the police - hows it their fault? They are just upholding the laws of the land.

WATCHING THE TELEVISION PICTURES ON BBC NATIONAL NEWS TONIGHT REMINDED ME AND UK VIEWERS THAT 'THIS PLACE' IS A PLACE APART -
THE TERRORIST ATTACKS BY UNIONISTS (LOYALIST AND ORANGE ORDER) ON THE POLICE AND THROUGHOUT THE NORTH ON CATHOLIC PEOPLE, THEIR HOMES AND CHURCHES WOULD NOT BE ACCEPTED FOR TEN MINUTES ANYWHERE IN BRITAIN - AND GIVEN RECENT AL QUAIDA TERRORISM WOULD BE DEALT WITH MUCH MORE SWIFTLY AND HARSHLY THAN PSNI ARE DOING.

Can I ask all of the peole who have made calls from their high horses about the need for dialogue from Unionists to consider whether the frequent cartoons in some papers, depicting all loyalists as knuckle dragging neanderthals, or indeed this thread with its "ape" pun in the title is conducive to creating an atmosphere where dialogue can happen?

The point being, if YOU were serious about engaging in dialogue, I doubt that you would be doing so much to demonise loyalists.

Now I know that ome of you will want to counter by pointing out that no-one is doing more to demonise them than themselves, and I dont disagree with that.
But since you are the people spouting about dialogue, isnt the onus on you to act in a manner that doesn't further alienate those who you think should be talking?

If the calls for dialogue are sincere.

Visoneer, like YF I think I'm lost by your logic. You're saying that people are angry at the concessions over the RIR and PSNI, and yet these folks are out attacking the very same and - in the words of Hugh Orde - trying to murder his officers. Your argument does not seem to stand up.

"The release of Sean Kelly and all those recent things I talked about are all contributry things on top of the loads of other concessions "

Who do you think decided to arrest Kelly on the first place ? Wasn't his arrest a concession to unionists, using your logic ?

"I suspect you could say the opposite and claim 'brutality'."

Now your true colours are showing - you think I'm a chuckie just because I'm daring to criticise the duplicity and shallowness of unionism. Unlike unionists such as yourself, I fully support the police. I never try to justify rioting by blaming a breakdown in politics.

"The Unionist community see their country falling apart."

Unionists and loyalists have rioted since time immemorial over supposed concessions to republicans, usually normalization measures or trivial matters such as the equal right to housing or votes. Stop trying to claim that unionists are falling back on a means they have previously rejected, it's revisionism.

The damage to this country is being done by rioters and petrol bombers. Here you are trying to take the heat off them and blame the government. Who in their right mind wuld invest in this place, when the general community appears to regard rioting as a generally understood response to a minor political grievance ?

The rest of the damage is being done by loyalist feuding organizations, which we mysteriously seem to have forgotten about.

"I am in no way justifing the violence, I am just trying to create some understanding into why it is happening."

Just like Gerry Adams tries to create understanding for rioting by dissident republicans. Unionism and Sinn Fein are two sides of the same coin. Whenever it comes to the bit, you'll say whatever you can to justify violence.

I'm serious about dialogue with elected representatives, and when marches are involved, with named marching bodies.

I'm not serious about dialogue with loyalists. Why would anyone want to engage in dialogue with an organization which receives practically no votes ? They vote for the DUP - so the DUP represent them.

Visioneer
I accept that you are attempting to explain the situation not condone it and you accurately report the huge frustration felt by many people in Unionist community.

It is clear that a number of organisations are exploiting this feeling of frustration. Dignified protest within the law is the only way forward. If you lose the PR battle nothing can be done (Unfortunately, it is probably too late).

Never mind all the whys and wherefores and pseudo-political crap. Such behaviour on the streets is inexcusable from anyone. Full stop.

People have too many rights these days. But some people fail to realise that with those rights come responsibilities. Ask any teacher, for example.

I used to be a peeler some years ago, but jacked it in out of pure frustration. (I now have a real job)

to see the PSNI fannying about on the tv today, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Three wee bastards with an overturned industrial-strength desk blocking a street. The Tangi just drove up and stopped.

We'd have dropped her a cog and rammed the whole lot to kingdom come, and fuck anyone who got in the way. You can't hear people screaming over the roar of a big Rover V8 anyway.

Then, bounce out of the wagon and start swinging, bust a few skulls and slot a few bastards if need be.

All of the above may sound extreme, but it's the only language some people understand.

Good luck everybody and keep safe tonight.

I do have to agree with Orange Order - this was policing at its worst.

Where were the water canons, the tear gas, the snatch squads and why, oh, why were they not a bit more casual with the plastic bullets?

"Unlike unionists such as yourself, I fully support the police. I never try to justify rioting by blaming a breakdown in politics."

I do support the PSNI and I am not trying to justify the rioting. As I have clearly stated on a number of occasions.

There is a beakdown in politics here, Stalin, maybe you should wake up to the reality of the situation, as a Unionist.

Moderate Unionist: You are right with regards to the PR battle, it is lost. If the people whom are rioting had any sense, they would not riot as it gives people something to fire back at Unionists, particularly internationally and at home. IRA/Sinn Fein have learned this.

Irish Nationalists will now use this as spin against the Unionist majority. This is the start of it on this thread.

The thing is that Unionist Politicans are now going to suffer, for what a minority has created in the aftermath. These people have made life more difficult for the majority of Unionists.

If the unionist politicians would condemn it I would be happier.

"There is a beakdown in politics here, Stalin"

Sick and tired of hearing this pathetic excuse wheeled out by unionists and republicans every time violence occurs.

"Irish Nationalists will now use this as spin against the Unionist majority. "

Nationalists do not have to lift a finger - they do not have to spin anything. The actions and utterances of unionists and the Orange Order have done all of that perfectly well. To any outsider, it looks like the unionists are turning up the violence while the IRA are disarming (the Sunday Business Post is reporting that the disarmament began this weekend).

"The thing is that Unionist Politicans are now going to suffer, for what a minority has created in the aftermath.

If the unionist politicians suffer, it is their own fault - they sparked this rioting off and they've not lifted a finger to stop it. They could put a stop to this quite easily - by calling upon the police to tear gas the rioters and arrest and charge them all on the spot. But they won't do that, just like you said, they would rather "create understanding" about their motivations.

"These people have made life more difficult for the majority of Unionists."

Let's get out of the tribal mindset. First, stop apologizing for what these people are doing. If you don'tsupport them, stop trying to explain what they are doing. You don't have to stand with them in solidarity. Second, they don't just damage unionists, or the majority of unionists - they damage all of us. Anyone who wants to live in this country, regardless of their political aspirations, will bear the brunt of damage in the form of reduced inward investment, increase unemployment and less money for public services.

The Unionist community see their country falling apart.

Posted by: Visioneer

This section of visioneers post says it all. Of course the country he/she gives allegiance to is far from falling apart. The Union is stronger today than it has been for decades. What he really means is the grubby Unionist state-let. A political entity which its leaders proclaimed to be a Protestant state for a Protestant People is on it's last legs.

This has gone and visioneer should get used to it as it was a disaster which led to thirty odd years of bloodshed. Republicans, nationalists and Catholics are never going to allow those days to return and nor is the current British government. The Loyalist working class has got to learn to live with their nationalist neighbours as equals and respect the democratic will of the people, after all the Provos have agreed to do so.

The unionist areas like the Shankill etc have some of the worst education facilities, poorest health care and highest unemployment in the north. yet their political leaders are winding them up with neo-nazi talk designed to turn one working man against another. The reason the aforementioned dismal facilities exist in Loyalist areas is not because the nationalists are first in the Que. But because the unionist political leadership has allowed this situation to happen. Why is there not a similar dearth of decent schools and health care in middle class unionist communities. Because the DUP and UUP have looked after their own. It is time for the unionist working classes to push leaders forward who will do the same for them

As to the Loyalist para-militaries they have simply filled their own pockets at the expense of those they claim to represent. What type of leaders encourage children to confront the police over trifling matters when the very same kids are forced to attend sink schools etc. If the unionist working class feel disaffected, tell us why they feel this way and what their needs are, what you hope for your off spring, suggest ways this can be brought into fruition. However, a return to a one party state which legislates for only one community is no longer an option
Regards

mickhall
I agree with most of what you say with the following reservations.

Nobody said anything about a return to a one party state. There is a genuine sense of grivance. This sense of frustration is being exploited by others. If we don't deal with it, the problem will fester.

The sense of frustration is not confined to the sink estates, look at the rise in the DUP vote. It is now obvious that the government pays no attention to electoral mandates. We will see higher taxes, poorer schools, the loss of the RIR, declining health standards, the demise of farming and there is nothing we can do about it. Democratic politicians have no influence with the government.

So how do we deal with this issue? Throwing resources at the problem confirms that violence works. Denying resources confirms the sense of injustice. Paramilitaries control these area. Do you deal with them or attempt to arrest them?
If the latter who wants to bring the resources into the area?

This government has adopted a very pragmatic approach to paramilitaries on both sides. It takes brave people to stand up against both the government and the paramilitaries.

Watch for more appeasement, that's a political reality that we will all have to get used to and don't expect anything from the local politicians.

MU
"We will see higher taxes, poorer schools, the loss of the RIR, declining health standards, the demise of farming and there is nothing we can do about it. Democratic politicians have no influence with the government."

That is what your beloved union with Britain will always bring you - for God's sake you have 18 MPs in a parliament of hundreds and you expect to set government policy. I think not.

Is it true that on Saturday, Orangemen staged an impromptu sit-down protest during a parade, and that this prevented police from reaching officers coming under attack for a time?

Loyalists are the new republicans.

After thirty years of politically inspired violence, it seems that rioting is considered by many to be a reasonable option in the face of some injustice, perceived or otherwise. In most societies, issue of justice are dealt with through the legal system and that is of course how it should be. Not in NI of course. We have a firmly ingrained culture of violence which is supported to some level by the political leadership on both sides. SF led the way on this over the thirty years with their rejection of authority on the basis that it was British authority in Ireland and therefore invalid. To a degree they still hold that line with their rejection of policing, although they tend to dress that rejection in terms of impartiality rather than sovereignty. Unionism is also quite capable of giving a nod and a wink to violence or the threat of it. The 1912, gun running and the Ulster Covenant are held dear in the hearts of Unionist and give a foundation for similar support for violence. The greatest example is of course the 1974 strike to bring down Sunningdale.

Stepping back and looking at how things have been moving over the last 10 years, I cannot avoid the conclusion that Unionism has lost the argument and we are in a period of transition to a United Ireland. Republicanism clearly sees this and consequently feel capable of ditching the direct conflict with the British government whilst still retaining the option to maintain some instability on the streets and use every opportunity to confront the unionists, safe in the knowledge that unionists will always gravitate toward self destruction.

The Unionists don't know what to do. They can't really believe that they have lost. The evidence however is mounting and they appear cornered and confused. At the lower end of the social ladder, they revert to mayhem to get attention and look strong. The politicians appear to be in denial and don't have the leadership qualities to take the community forward into a better place. They are happy to ride on the backs of the mayhem without any real idea of where they are riding to.

Enlightened and strong leadership would stand a chance of taking the unionist people into discussions with their nationalist neighbours as a proud and decent people. Unfortunatley there is little chance of that. The result will be increasing sectarianism, sporadic violence, further alienation, isolation and vilification, leading to the next step on the journey to British disengagement.

Unionism may have stood some chance against republicanism. They stand no chance against the British government. They want out and they will drive that agenda.

I heard Paisley on the radio this morning, it was like a flashback to my childhood. Just like 25 years ago he still can´t/won´t answer straightforward questions, all he can do is try and bully the interviewer. He´s a damn disgrace.
BTW there´s an interesting comment-article by Jonathan Freedland re the riots in the Guardian today.

Looking forward to the UK military storming east belfast now that bomb making factories have been located (a la Tel-Afar),
Oh sorry, they're white people, my mistake.
They'll be no storming, sweeping or draining the swamp.
Thats for brown people.

I live in East Belfast - yesterday Avoniel Leisure Centre was warned to close by 4pm because the rioting would start at 4pm. No doubt about it being extremely well organised. Sure enough at 4pm it started. My mum is seriously ill in a hospital in Bangor I had planned to go and see her but instead I am a prisoner in my own home. This makes me so angry.

DK is wrong to say that the riot is because people think a UI is coming. Nothing seems less likely and the last 10 years have seen things happen that make a UI highly unlikely.

Most people in the Unionist community seem to have been taken by surprise by this riot. There is unhappiness about some of the timing of moves of the government this summer, but that isn't behind the riots.

More likely is the fact that the police are moving in on the UVF and the UVF don't like it. This violence was not the spontaneous rioting of a demoralised unionist community - they are not that demoralised - it was the coorinated actions of paramilitaries who fear that the police are going to move against them.

As such we should not worry too much about it and we should all hope that the police can continue with the job.

Susan - it makes me angry too. I had to go to the airport yesterday at 5am and you would have thought there was a war on.

Slug

I didn't say the riot was because of fears of a UI. I said that violence is ingrained within the culture and is seen as an acceptable means of responding to any perceived injustice.

The perceived injustices in this case are advertised as "marching resrictions", again, although the UVF vs police theory may be a factor.

The UI issue is just an observation on a general trend and how unionism is becoming hopelessly incapable of responding in a manner that puts them in a better place. Their responses to anything tend to have a negative effect on their position. Leadership must be a factor.

DK - ok. There is no trend to a UI though. The trend - demographic and social - seems to be against it. The union doesn't need unionism anymore, indeed, as you put it, some elements of unionism would be better without!

Comrade Stalin I`m not known as someone who has agreed with some of your comments before but let me redress this.
Your posts on this thread were a breathe of fresh air.

Excellent first post from DK from my point of view - I agree without one word of argument - your feelings and observations about the future mirror mine totally. There is one point that I would like to bring up that has been by and large looked over or not known - I am from a large Loyalist estate (Rathcoole) and the word is that violence around the outskirts of the estate is linked to a UDA/UVF argument (not to be confused with LVF/UVF) and also to in effect create a no-go area for police - like certain parts of nationalist West Belfast as Loyalist god-fathers here are getting very tired of their drugs, money and weapons being seized. There are many here suggesting that the whole Orange Order issue is merely a front for getting unhindered business back on track. Ultimately I think that most posters have fair points to make on the causes and motivations behind this violence though the whole truth would encompass quite a few of the issues noted in a cocktail of sorts as they are multible and not based solely on any one issue - certainly not a single parade anyway. The effects of the violence? - see DK first post for the end result.

Here's that Guardian comment that Foreign Correspondent alerted us to earlier this morning:

Disarm the loyalists too

Jonathan Freedland

"The Orange rampage in Belfast is a reminder that pressure and rewards have to be evenly spread

"This was what the sceptics always said would happen. Paramilitaries, officially on ceasefire, would break their word – and unleash a wave of devastating violence. Armed to the teeth, these private armies would reach for the gun the moment they did not get their way. And all the promises made by the respectable political parties that stand alongside them would be exposed as worthless lies.

"That's what critics of the Northern Ireland peace process always warned would happen. Except the menace they had in mind was the IRA and the republican movement. It was the Provos who had to be disarmed and disbanded, lest they return to their bloody ways.

"What the sceptics did not bank on, what few people even mentioned, were the paramilitaries of loyalism. Rare was the cry for the Ulster Volunteer Force to decommission its weapons or for the Ulster Defence Association to declare that its war was over. And yet it was these men, backed by their allies in the Orange Order – not the IRA – who over the weekend turned parts of Belfast into what one loyalist politician described to me yesterday as "Beirut".

"And this was no mere street riot, no outbreak of simple stone-throwing and window-shattering. The loyalist hard-men trained machine guns on soldiers and police, sending some 700 bullets their way according to one estimate. Bricks and petrol bombs came in numbers too large to count. One eyewitness spoke of a mayhem unseen in 30 years.

The chief constable of Northern Ireland, Sir Hugh Orde, had no doubt who shared responsibility for this: he had seen men swathed in the sashes of the Orange Order attacking his officers. Some suspect not a random outbreak of discontent but a deliberate, strategic move by forces within unionism. Frustrated that Ian Paisley's replacement of David Trimble as the community's leading politician had not stemmed the flow of perceived concessions to republicans, they decided to take their fight to the streets.

"This should shake those who have long regarded republicans as the sole obstacle to peace in Northern Ireland. In the lead-up to the 1998 Good Friday agreement, and in the years since, unionists and their cheerleaders in Westminster and the British press have piled the political and moral pressure on the IRA and Sinn Féin, demanding that they change. Much of that pressure was deserved. But it was also lopsided – as this weekend's events have proved. Now we have seen, in the most lurid colours, that loyalists have guns too.

"The double standard looks especially glaring given the IRA's July declaration that its armed campaign is over and that it will lay down its arms. As republicanism moves into a new phase, loyalism remains in the brutal past. Just yesterday a senior UVF source was quoted saying that, yes, his group would wind up its activities – but that it would never decommission its weapons.

"And yet the answer to the weekend's violence is not simply to unload newpressure on loyalists and unionists. On the contrary, it seems one of the multiple causes of these disturbances is what David Ervine, leader of the loyalist Progressive Unionist party, calls a "sense of abandonment" among grassroots, working-class Protestants. Rightly or wrongly, he says, this community perceives a British government that bends over backwards for Sinn Féin – so that "whatever the republicans want, republicans get" – and does next to nothing for THEM.

"The lesson is pretty clear: the search for peace in Northern Ireland needs to be more balanced. That means spreading the pressure over arms more evenly – to include loyalists – and ensuring the rewards for progress are seen to be spread more evenly, too, to include the very same people. "

We discussed the rioting at a dinner party last night, and I gathered that Freedland's musings accurately reflect the views of the more intelligent Britons.

We all know where this is going. Somewhere out there is an 'expendable' police officer. This poor bastard is going to have to be murdered on duty by rioters or gunmen in otder for there to be sufficient room for manoevre for the PSNI and their political masters to take the gloves off.

It is patently obvious that the use of force alone is not a long-term or even medium term solution to the disorder. Part of this relies on the 'arabists' within the NIO realising that working class loyalism has been completely disconnected from a political process meant to deliver stability. The self-congratulatory imported muppets who smirk behind the wire at Hillsborough Castle at the way they have perverted civil society here in a way intolerable anywhere else in the UK are perhaps finally realising the price this place is paying for Republican appeasement masquerading as a 'peace process.'

However none of this is important right now. Society needs a very very robust response to this appalling lawlessness. A little less understanding a little more action. Parents arrested and jailed for the child abuse of letting 10 year olds out to throw pertol bombs, more jail capcity created instantly with proper, not ludicrosusly tame judicial response to those found guilty of riot.

This madness has to be tamed before the systemic approach is brought to bear. The systemic approach ends with locaally elected and accountable politicians with responsiblity for our security being held to account in the Assembly.

But my fear is that unless there is real action, right NOW, this road will be littered with the corpses of the cannon fodder sent into the middle.

DK
You may well be right but please explain how things will settle down after a United Ireland. Will the penny finally drop on the Unionists. "It's a fair cop gov. We give up" or perhaps they will respond to "We have you surrounded, come out with your hands up or face the consequences".

Must say I think it jolly decent of the South to takes us on, what with all the misunderstandings in the past. Presumably, we can keep the schools, hospitals, civil service jobs and equality agenda.

MU

Don't be silly. A UI is not even remotely likely anymore. The instability is caused by the fact that Republicans realise this, and are now aiming to change NI rather than get rid of it. That engagement on internal NI issues - especially policing - is driving a lot of unionist insecurity right not. Not the UI stuff which is off the agenda because the demographics are working against it.

Like the description of Freedland as foreign correspondent.

His article is first class.

Fair Deal,

I always valued your comments highly. Like a door opened I didn’t even know it was there.
I still do and would like to know your thoughts on the events on the weekend.

I often wondered why there was not more emphasis on loyalist decommissioning by people in the talks processes.

DK

What you're saying is that Ulster needs DeKlerk. We had one: david Trimble. Look what happened.

DK

What you're saying is that Ulster needs a DeKlerk. We had one: david Trimble. Look what happened.

'Holy War in Belfast'by Andrew Boyd, first published in the '60's with a few second-hand editions available on Amazon, is a fascinating account of last weekend's violence. Except Boyd focuses on the 1830's, 1860's. 1880's, 1890's etc. Loyalism/Unionism: something better change.

"Like the description of Freedland as foreign correspondent."

Maybe one too many lonely pints, Lonely Pint? "Foreign Correspondent" is one of Slugger's own ;-)

slug

Very perceptive comment and sums up my view on the matter.

Thanks YF. I value your opinions.

Just heard the editor of the Newsletter on Talk Back. His paper's usual judgemental, angry, right wing tone is sadly lacking, and he came over all 'understanding' about the reasons for the 'very real anger' in the Protestant community.

When pressed on what, exactly, the people were angry about. He rambled on about Sean Kelly release, no IRA arms handed over, the RIR disbandment...

So, taking them in turn - loyalists burn the palce because Sean Kelly is released (and loyalists weren't), IRA guns aren't handed in (so they go on to the street with their guns and fire them at the security forces - the same security force whose disbandment they are protesting against.

If you printed T-shirts for the rioters and the Orange Order thugs joining them, might I suggest the following legend: We're Stupid, We're Bigoted, And We're Angry. Very Angry.

"The instability is caused by the fact that Republicans realise this, and are now aiming to change NI rather than get rid of it."

Thank God for the republicans - we'll always have somebody to blame when the shit hits the fan. Even if they weren't the ones rioting, it was their destabilising tactics that somehow lead to it.

slug

"I often wondered why there was not more emphasis on loyalist decommissioning by people in the talks processes.

Young Fogey

"Very perceptive comment and sums up my view on the matter."

It's simple really. The IRA were going to have direct representation in an Assembly. The loyalists were going to be INDIRECTLY represented. We saw evidence of the latter when Paisley and Empey made their considered "appeals for calm" before the violence.

"When pressed on what, exactly, the people were angry about. He rambled on about Sean Kelly release, no IRA arms handed over, the RIR disbandment..."

Er, weren't those RIR soldiers the angry people were attacking yesterday?

MU

"You may well be right but please explain how things will settle down after a United Ireland".

A huge risk, but not one that is totally insurmountable given a political will from all interested parties. The essential ingredient is in fact strong and charismatic leadership that can focus a section of the protestant community on a set of values much more important than the location of government and positioning with respect to historical battles and ideologies which should have no place in today's world.

Generally the protestant middle class and the educated working class will consider a radical rethink if there is a chance that a more wholesome society can evolve which would give their children a chance of normality.

Nationalists have a large part to play in creating the right environment. Something I hasten to add they do not display much interest in given the ongoing vilivication of the entire protestant community.

The real drive will however have to come from within the protestant community from those who are totally fed up with this sickening sectarianism being executed in their name.

You make a good point on the ROI. I can't think why they would take the risk, other than they have convinced themselves over centuries that it must be a good thing. Too many songs in pubs!

BogExile

I would not use DeKlerk as an example as that only serves republican illusions when they equate Adams with Mandela and the unionist people with the boers. An insult to Mandela and the unionists.

When I talk of leadership I mean someone far more visionary than Trimble. A decent man, but limited in vision and hardly charismatic.

Who? God knows. But it's needed.

Bog Exile

"However none of this is important right now. Society needs a very very robust response to this appalling lawlessness. A little less understanding a little more action"

I agree and I would go further with financial penalties - eg like responses brought on the Unions in GB when they could be severly fined for disruption - I would do the same to the Orange Order and the 'residents groups'if their actions led to a riot which caused damage.

What has happened over the last few days is a bloody disgrace and is the worst threat to the Union imaginable.

These so called loyalist morons don't have the first idea of what is really important - most unionists don't care if the Orange Order can't walk down areas that are now primarily Catholic - they would never have dreamed of walking down the Falls Road 70 years ago so what is the problem now - things change - move on and walk where you are wanted.

Last week Belfast as a result of the win at Windsor Park was on the crest of a wave - the tourist potential we have here is unbelievable as any reading Of English Fan web sites would reveal last week with English Fans who were here recommending people to visit

These idiots have caused it to go up in smoke.

As for discontent in Loyalist areas the biggest probelm we have are the parasitical paramilitaries.

The recent riots, etc in the north highlight the catastrophic nature of political life in the six counties. Few Unionist politicians are willing, bar the odd condemnation, to go on the record and condemn the rioters in a vigorous manner. For they fear were they to do so they would be condemned as turning on there own.

Posters to this thread have made it clear there are few genuine grievances behind the outbreaks of violence, yet due to the sectarian nature of politics few Unionist politicians are saying this. In a normal society if one Party refused to condemn such events, an opposing Party's spokesperson would swiftly point out this fact.

However as the opposing parties in the north are either Republican or Nationalist this just does not happen, for obvious reasons. So not only do we get unjustifiable riots, we also get the sorry spectacle of mainstream Unionist politicians prattling on about grievances etc, thus by so doing they are endorsing the very nonsense the para-military's used to wind the rioters up.
In other word, not for the first time the Loyalist Para-militaries have got the mainstream loyalist politicos to be their bagmen.

I think its much more of a symbiotic relationship between loyalist politicians (lets face it, they're all loyalist) and the gunmen. However for me what these riots highlight is not so much how the eye has been taken off the ball, but more how the completely wrong match was being watched.

The entire peace process has been lop-sided. Whilst issues of IRA arms etc. are extremely important, what was never an issue was the deep seated resentment in the north, and the innate sectarian nature of the state. A deliberate policy of reinforcing the "us and them state" of the north has been followed for the last 10 years with no real efforts being made to break down segregation (indeed its getting worse).
So rather than seeing any change as being of benefit to the whole of society, we are in a game of trade offs where nobody can win. "If they get that, we want that" "But if they get that, we haveta have that" "Well if thats the case we want that". And when "we" don't get what we want, we'll spit the dummy and bring out the men with the hairy faces to cause some trouble.

Circles

First off, on your earlier post, I just want to clear up that I don't consider that republicans are to blame here. My comment was more that republicans engagement to achieve change in NI is unsettling some unionists a bit. That doesn't mean they 'caused' this riot.

Second, I can only agree with your 2:59PM. Politics has never been so explicitly about gains for particular ethnic groups. We need to look at absolute gains, and gains for the whole of NI, rather than view everything tribally. Government policy has undoubtedly created a more divided society over the last 15 years. Now that the IRA decommissioning issue has run its course, and assuming the weapons are decommissioned, the whole focus of policy needs to focus on the important work of breaking down segregation.

I ranted to the knave and fool,
But outgrew that school,
Would transform the part,
Fit audience found, but cannot rule
My fanatic heart.

I sought my betters: though in each
Fine manners, liberal speech,
Turn hatred into sport,
Nothing said or done can reach
My fanatic heart.

Out of Ireland have we come.
Great hatred, little room,
Maimed us at the start.
I carry from my mother's womb
A fanatic heart.

Remorse For Intemperate Speech
William Butler Yeats

This was written more than seventy years ago and is still relevant now. Will it still be relevant in 2075 when most of us are dead and buried? If five-years old are getting caught up in riots, then depressingly that´s very possible.

Sorry about the misquote slug, and thanks for clearing that up!!!

John EB, thanks for that admirable post. I agree with you. The people rioting, and the politicians who fail to condemn them in unequivocal terms, are demonstrating that republicans have won the argument. They could not have timed it more perfectly - they are increasing the violence right as the republicans are apparently preparing to destroy their weapons in front of both Catholic and Protestant clergy members.

Thanks to this weekend, the American envoy as well as the British NI Secretary have both said quite directly that unionist politicians are not doing enough to stop this violence. As a result, the world sees that unionism is in direct violation of the Mitchell Principles as well as the GFA. This violence, far from stopping the concessions to republicans, will in fact improve the standing of republicans who are presently making much propaganda out of their "restraint".

circles, I agree there too. The only concession that loyalists want is that the republican concessions be stopped. It's not a basis for a way forward. I'm sure there are other things that could be done to improve things for ordinary unionists, but since their leaders refuse to take them to the talks table to start hammering out a framework to get them, we don't seem to be able to move forward.

Loyalists steal cash machine.

Their only crime was robbery.