There is no one to blame but the people who orchestated, planned and carried out the petrol and blast bomb and gun attacks.

We need a high volume of arrests and strong support for the security forces, including against white-wash stories of heavy-handedness. I'm sure the Ombudsman can look at any contentious issues.

I'm sick to the stomach with worthless bastards of whatever ilk ruining it for the rest of us, whatever our outlook.

I do hope you would include the Blair Government amongst your "worthless bastards" comment Gav for their complete and utter appeasement of terrorists, thugs and criminals that roam this land unhindered "ruining it for the rest of us".

I do hope you would include the Blair Government amongst your "worthless bastards" comment Gav for their complete and utter appeasement of terrorists, thugs and criminals that roam this land unhindered "ruining it for the rest of us".

This site is so rendered with multiple identities as to be practically worthless.
Isn't there some way the Sinn Fein and DUP press office ISPs can be permanently blocked?

Peter J/Menzies

As a result of reading Fanny's post, I've did a little researching and noted you are using multiple IDs on this site through My Powers of Being A Moderator.

Stop it, or be embarrassed further.

It didn't really take a genius to work out did it? I read that thread (and I think posted on it once) this morning and wasn't surprised by any of it. I took the official pronouncement at the top as another 15 year old uber-prod acting the big lad by proving he was "in the know". Maybe I'm being naive but I'd be surprised if there was anything more to it than that.

Uh, who didn't know in advance that there was going to be trouble?

Uh, who didn't know in advance that there was going to be trouble?

Nothing in the posts that was being openly talked about for days in North and West Belfast and being Loyalism the PSNI were probably the first to know.

Gonzo, I think the Slugger moderators should be thinking about IP address bans for people who consistently post under multiple IDs. Obviously a typo or whatever is one thing, but people deliberately flooding the place with multiple comments is nothing other than spam and it damages the discussion seriously. See the "Ill wind may not blow to the Whitehouse" thread for an example.

Had a look and the forum is totally useless - reminds me of the UTV comments at the bottom of news articles.

See when you post on a forum there's no way the moderators can track your real address by your IP, is there? It's just I want to annoy them over at LoveUlster but I'm a very, very paranoid man.

On almost all forums (including this one, and the Love Ulster one) the moderators can track you by looking at your IP address. With broadband internet being fairly widespread, IP addresses of individual users tend not to change a lot.

Thanks for that. I thought it was just me being stupid, but I'll stay away from posting on LU in future. It would wreck my head to think some angry loyalist could track down my real address.

No, that is different.

Using the IP address, it is possible to determine whether people posting under multiple identities are the same person. That is only true insofar as the person uses the same internet connection.

However, there is no mechanism to convert an IP address into a real name and address. That information is held in a database by the telephone/broadband internet companies - I'm pretty sure they're required by law to keep such information for a certain period of time. Generally it is only released when the authorities make a request for it.

The only way a loyalist is going to get your name is to find your IP address from the forum administrators at loveulster.com, then penetrate your telecoms company to get your billing information based on your IP address. That is quite an unlikely prospect for a private individual.

For the authorities who may be investigating the posts on loveulster.com, things may get a little tricky as they are hosted in the USA by LiquidWeb. It would be interesting if loveulster.com's administrators were compelled by a court to hand over the information they knew.

Ah, so I was just being utterly paranoid/stupid. Pity there's no edit feature on Slugger.

I'll go over to LU and post now then.

Springfield Road residents could've gone out for an afternoon, turned their radios up a bit louder for 5 minutes, closed their curtains.
What next; if you drive one make of car that offends them they'll get another government body put together to ban any of theses cars from driving up their road.
Looking back on what has happened I think every right minded person will know who to blame for it.

Yes, Mr B8er - everyone knows the Orange Order and their loyalist terrorist fellow travellers are to blame.

It wuz the fenians wot done it, MrB8er.

I have just managed to read a copy of Love Ulster, despite 200 000 copies it was hard to find, the UDA mustn’t deliver in my predominately unionist area, anyway as for the 'paper', it will do more harm than good, just like the whole Love Ulster idea!

Slarti.....

You are really getting stuck in. I am beginning to think that non unionist regular posters are outnumbering the unionist ones. I suspect that a lot are motivated by a chance to bait the "think orange prods". I don't have a problem with that, it's up to us not to succum to the baiting. I find it ammusing though and I need amusing today.

Bertie, I was enjoying myself over there today but ITV3 is showing 2001 and Spartacus as a double bill right now so I'll be taking a break till 10, then back to slagging. Ah, what a perfect day...

Slart....

I'll keep a look out for you

To all

I've posted this on the other relevant threads as well.

I think that with the finer points we have been debating we are in danger of obscuring the concensus that there appears to be on this issue - another case of heated agreement.

It seems to me and I'm sure that I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, that whatever we think per se about the OO, unionist politicians, unionists in general, the Belfast Agreement or anything else, there seems to be a consensus that :-

the rioting was not in any way justified and that we would like to see the rioters subject the the full force of whatever the Criminal Justice System is capable of throwing at them

bertie
I fear you will be dissappointed. The ring leaders will never appear on camera or be directly involved. They will always find people to act for them.

On a wider front, the criminal justice system depends upon reliable witnesses coming forward. People make complaints, they tell the police who is doing what, but they don't want to give evidence in court. So the police can't prosecute.

As for Westminster, Blair just wants to ensure that there are no bombs in London. They will buy off whatever paramilitary groups they need to. The more agro these groups create, the higher the pay off.

Westminster is not interested in a just settlement, it just wants a quiet life.

As for the ordinary people, they have recently expressed their opinion at the polls. By definition the majority must be happy with their choice.

MU

welcome back to the fray. I suspect that you are as depressed as I am about last night coming so close after the euphoria of Wednesday's win. We never did get our campaign off the ground did we. If I had had half an idea of how to get it off the ground I would have. The trouble is though that there are so many thungs I want to put right!

As for "ring leader", I do not know anything about how this was organised but speaking generically I support the principle of peaceful protest. In this case those "directly involved" should have to take responsibility for their actions, but I share your view on the poor chances of that happening.

Re your 3rd and 4th paras. I quite agree.

Please elaborate on your 5th para.

bertie
I have been researching our little project. I always felt I was commenting from a postion of ignorance as an outsider. What I have found out is not pretty. We are about 10 years too late. It takes very brave people to take on the paramilitaries and once they get control of place, it is difficult to get them out. Some are trying to look after their community, others are looking after themselves. All undermine the democratic process,the police and the criminal justice system.

The government appears to have a strategy of engaging directly with them and funding community projects through them. This of course strengthens their position in the community. How can we reject groups that have been legitimised by NIO/HMG?

Regarding my 5th Para. The DUP were returned with a resounding mandate. It is now clear that HMG will pay even less attention to them than the UUP.

Politics is about influence and the DUP appears to have none. People(on both sides)thought that peace (and prosperity) was inevitable and so they could afford to show their distaste for the other side by voting hard line. Neither, peace nor prosperity appear to be inevitable and in that regard the people may have miscalculated.

MU

I'm not in a position to get to the coal face. I'm impressed that you have tried. I've just been agitating on the fringes but it has been one of a number of fronts I have been fighting on.

"The government appears to have a strategy of engaging directly with them and funding community projects through them. This of course strengthens their position in the community. How can we reject groups that have been legitimised by NIO/HMG?"

Isn't this simply a disgrace. People who have had their lives shattered by these people and who are still being kept in line by them get bugger all and those responsible get their egos and they pockets swelled. Re how can we reject them? We don't have to accept HMG's analysis.

"People(on both sides)thought that peace (and prosperity) was inevitable and so they could afford to show their distaste for the other side by voting hard line"

I don't know where this analysis come from MU. I don't know any anti-agreement unionists (the only ones I have had access to) who were hopeful at all. Speaking for myself, my despair for what the future of NI might be like has not lifted very significantly from its all time low at the time of the BA.

I was woken at 5 this morning by 5 UVF thugs stealing wheelie bins and setting them on fire. I think this was to draw the PSNI into the area to attack them. Certainly the bricks and missles left at the site suggested this.

I hope the Loyal Sons who burnt the bins of neighbouring pensioners, disturbing residents and their children etc. will feel proud today as they reflect on their historic links with the Somme.

I hope that the elderly Protestant pensioners who have to pay for new bins from their meagre incomes salute the brave volunteers who have tried to ensure that a UVF parade will past Catholic houses, will thank their stirling actions.

I hope that the 10 heroes who have beaten a Short Strand resident to deaths door on Friday night will sleep easily knowing they have done what is morally right.

FFS will Unionism ever learn? Paisley, Empey, Saulters, Mc Vicker etc. hang your heads in shame.

I have posted on Joblog:

"What a pack of bastards."

I dont know who not to include in that description this evening.

Trouble in Tates Avenue - AVOID.

bertie
Sorry Bertie, the analysis was mine. More conjecture than analysis actually. What has become clear to me is that Governments don't have friends they have interests. If you serve a governments interest then you are useful and they will look after you. However, if you act against their interests even if you have a mandate, you get no where, in fact you can't even take the rough edges of their policy.

My problem with the anti campaign was that nobody presented me with a more palatable alternative. Now that the Belfast Agreement is dead, the way is clear for plan B.

If last night was a 'taster' you might have a little problem persuading the rest of us that Plan B is a good idea.

lib2016
I have no plan B, but I assume that those who opposed plan A do.

As for persuading you to do anything, not my bag. With no influence and no barginning power it would be a waste of time. Let me know when you have it sorted out.

No problem!

1/Draw up an Agreement.

2/Put it to the people in a referendum.

3/Press on with it with the support of all democrats.

The above proposal also has the benefit of revealing just which section of society are democrats and it will work. It might take a little longer than expected but we'll get there. Even the DUP have conceded that the Assembly will happen in their peculiar way. (from 'Nevair! Nevair! Nevair!' to 'Not for two years!' took them all of six months)

MU

I know that we have covered this ground before but beleiving that plan A will make things worse does not mean that you have to come up with a plan B (other than to express that part of it has to be the non implementation of Plan A).

If I lived in NAZI Germany, or more particularly during it's rise, my main focus would be to be anti-NAZI more than to be pro anything in particular. (This opposition would be despite repeated calls that the NAZIs were the only show in town) In the current situation, my answer to any unionist who would say in relation to rioting "what is your alternative" again my answer is more focused on not rioting. Should I fail to comment because I cannot come up with an alterative?

bertie
You and I have much in common (as you know) though we were on opposites of the vote in 1998. I do have a problem with not having a alternative plan because if Plan A fails we then have no plan and we must put up with events.

Like you I am very depressed by the events of the weekend and condemn outright the activities of the rioters, but what can we do to stop such things.

It is obvious that these are co-ordinated events in multiple locations and there is a political agenda.

lib2016
The challenge is not to draw up a plan but to get others to agree to it and then successfully implement it. This may be a little bit more difficult than you imagine, but don't let me put you off.

Bonzo,

I can assure you I do not feel the least bit embarrassed. I use to use "Peter J" as a name on here but haven't used it in a very long time.

Last night when I made my post under "Menzies" I pressed the 'post' button having finished what I wanted to type and it took a complete age for your website to accept it to the point where my computer appeared to have frozen.

I thought at first this may have had something to do with 'Menzies' not being recognised by the system for some reason. I therefore decided to use my old name, 'Peter J' to see if that worked. In the meantime, of course, my first submission had actually posted after all.

If you look further down the page you will see a similar, double entry of a post by "TAFKABO". You may well find he/she was having a similar problem to the one I was experiencing. A problem caused by your website, not those of us who post on it.

You may well have "the powers of a moderator", as you so ludicrously put it, but those powers were abused by you by immediately jumping to conclusions about my apparent guilt. Discraceful, shame on you and the rest of you who did likewise. No wonder there is so much injustice in this land.

Perhaps you and 'Fanny' should drive from your mind whether people have mulitple names on here and concentrate on what they are actually saying. Because THAT is the only thing that is of ANY relevance.

MU

I just think that not doing things that will make the situation worse is the key to the solution. From that comes possibilities. Bring back Roy Mason. A man who didn't beleive in playing with NI like it was a computer game for testing initiatives.

Roy Mason isn't coming back... so what are your proposals Bertie?

The OO should pay in some way - financially or other - for events like yesterday.

It basically has cost the rest of us a lot - lost investment, lost opportunities, and a lot of embarrassment at the images sent out of our country to the Rest of the World.

Young Fogey

Like a lot of people I'm in a state of shock. There is a part of me that does not beleive that it is happening. The joy of Anglo-baiting on Thursday seems light years from my mood at the moment and my inventiveness in seizing on tenuous links to bring the subject up it not up to the challange of the moment.

As I said to MU I'm stuck for anything beyond not doing things that are inherently wrong. At the same time I see how weak that message is to the rioters. I share a lot of their frustration. Well that is to say I am experiencing a high degree of frustration about NI, what goes on in their head I cannot be sure. I cannot say that violence or terrorism does not pay because it does. I can only say to them that it is wrong. However they have already crossed the line between right and wrong so that arguement does not resonate with them.

It's probably a good job that I am not a unionist leader.

Well, bertie, at least you say unequivocally that rioting is wrong which is more than can be said for the leaders of the Unionist parties at the minute. So in my book, as someone who has no time for apologist for violence from whatever quarter, you'd be doing a better job than they are.

Unionism seems to have driven itself up a cul-de-sac. It's alright blaming everyone else for Unionism's predicament but it seems to have no idea of how to promote a positive vision of NI society. If the Orange Order-UDA love in that is Love Ulster is the best Unionism can do then I really do feel sorry.

If you're pissed off with the current situation, fair enough, but at least tell the rest of us what you want to see changed.

As for the "we're all alienated poor people waffle", that's exactly what Gerry Kelly after the riot in Ardoyne in the 12th. If it's a load of keek when it comes from him, then it's a load of keek when it comes from Unionists. Sorry.

The Orange Order refuses to deal with residents groups because of Republican links, but still finds time to play footsie with the UDA and UVF. Paisley won't talk to Republican terrorists or their political representatives but he's happy to 'understand' the 'inevitable' actions of Loyalist paramilitaries.

Well, I'm afraid I'm fed up with that sort of doublethink. I've never found it easy to get excited about Orange marches (freedom of assembly even for people you don't like and all that), but at the minute I'd do anything I could to stop the two-faced hypocrites going anywhere near where I lived.

Young Fogey

Just thought of a slogan for my election as unionst leader "the unionist leader that Alliance most want you to have!" ;)

You pick a fine time of night to ask me such a big question!

One of the things I want to change is that there would be no prospect of an amnesty for the on-the-runs.

As for the OO not talking to resident groups because of SF members, I support that stance. "still finds time to play footsie with the UDA and UVF" - I have no answer for this as it's bonkers (as it it doesn't make sence as opposed to it didn't happen).

Young Fogey

Just thought of a slogan for my election as unionst leader "the unionist leader that Alliance most want you to have!" ;)

You pick a fine time of night to ask me such a big question!

One of the things I want to change is that there would be no prospect of an amnesty for the on-the-runs.

As for the OO not talking to resident groups because of SF members, I support that stance. "still finds time to play footsie with the UDA and UVF" - I have no answer for this as it's bonkers (as it it doesn't make sence as opposed to it didn't happen).

bertie, it makes plenty of sense, the OO has always had paramilitary sympathies within it's ranks.

This rioting is happening because unionism feels isolated and is lashing out the only way it knows how - violence. That's what it has done all through the years. I've just been reading Chris Ryder's book "The RUC - a force under fire" and there are photographs of a "loyalist day of action" in 1985 in the aftermath of the AIA, that are just the same as the TV pictures we are seeing now. This is nothing to do with the peace process, the GFAs or recent concessions to republicans. Unionism's siege mentality mean that anything and everything which subtracts from unionist hegemony is an inherent concession.

Comrade

you have admonished Visioner on another thread
for being tribal, but you are painting the whole of unionism with the same brush. So Visioner and I are being tarred with it. "unionism feels isolated and is lashing out the only way it knows how - violence". I am responsible for what I do and do not do, Visioner is responsible for what he does or does not do and the rioters are responsbile for what they do or do not do.

When you make statements about what unionism does or do not do, you put us in the position of having to defend unionism (advocacy of the Union) rather than some things that some unionists may or may not have done.

bertie,

"As for the OO not talking to resident groups because of SF members, I support that stance"

I would be interested to hear the reasons why you support this orange dictat.

Comrade

Are you saying that being digusted at the prospect of an amnesty for on the runs is down to Unionism's siege mentality mean and because it "subtracts from unionist hegemony"

Everything that the terrorists want that is given to them because of that terrorism is a concession to terrorism. Some of those will subtract from unionist (majority) hegemony.

Go Bertie!

INteresting that a poster made a comment about how images of recent violence will further embarass NIs public image abroad, as I have a friend currently in the United Kingdom on holiday from the USA and who will be spending a few days in Belfast this week. Having been told of the days of old only rearing their heads on occasion, and becoming the exception rather than the rule, you can imagine her shock at picking up a newspaper and reading of the current situation! Methinks our night-time movements will be restricted. (easy now, keep it clean!)

One of the things I want to change is that there would be no prospect of an amnesty for the on-the-runs.

Do you really think that Loyalist rioting is caused by an amnesty for on-the-runs? Come on, bertie, you can do better than that!

I'm not happy with a general amnesty myself although I'm happy enough with admission of guilt being exchanged for the right to return home under licence. But I can't see any evidence that's why people were rioting.

As for the OO not talking to resident groups because of SF members, I support that stance. "still finds time to play footsie with the UDA and UVF" - I have no answer for this as it's bonkers (as it it doesn't make sence as opposed to it didn't happen).

Yeah, well they still do it, so how do they expect their "we don't talk with residents grops because they have links with paramilitaries" line to have any credibility with anybody else?

I would like to re-iterate that DanDaMan is NOT a multiple identity of me, just in case anyone thinks it might be.

I've been reading all the posts this afternoon with great interest, and I have to say my heart goes out to all of you living in the midst of that shite.

I don't know how any of you can stand to live there with that shite going on day in, day out..& I'm not just talking about rioting, I 'm referring to the hostility that exists between the two warring communities. I may have my tuppence opinions on what appears in the media and what's reported about what goes on there, but I will never, ever understand how someone would want to live/remain in the hellhole that NI must be just for the sake of being able to paint a kerb/gable wall a particular colour or hoist a particular flag off a lamppost and sneer menacingly at my neighbours.

I hope that doesn't come across as naive or condescending, I certainly don't mean it to. But how can ANYONE expect to live a properly happy and fulfilled life in NI with a society as diseased with hatred as it so obviously is? How the concepts of 'loyalty', 'patriotism', 'unionism', 'republicanism' and 'nationalism' have managed to lead the province to where it is now is just incomprehensible.

I know I must be the 10 BILLIONTH person to have asked this but...especially in an era when relations between Britain & Ireland have been steadily improving over the last 20 years and will only get stronger and stronger as time goes on...would people not get a grip and ask themselves, 'is this REALLY worth the effort'?

Young Fogey
"Do you really think that Loyalist rioting is caused by an amnesty for on-the-runs? Come on, bertie, you can do better than that!"

This was in answer to:-
"If you're pissed off with the current situation, fair enough, but at least tell the rest of us what you want to see changed."

You asked me what I want to see changed. It is one of the things that disgusts me most and yes, makes me angry, but I am not one of the rioters. I was not on our screens waving ceremonial swords at the police. I am a unionist, none stronger, but do not presume to speak for "unionism". I hear my concerns reflected in conversations with unionists I know, but none of them, to my knowledge were rioters.

It is interesting though that because I am not going to riot or murder anyone, what makes me angry doesn't matter. I am the Most Oppressed Poster Ever! ;)

"Love Ulster" sounds to me like a "Hate Catholics" campaign because of the way they whip up irrational fears of an imminent United Ireland. It is ironic that this violence comes as the IRA are destroying their arms and have declared an end to their war - precisely things that the Unionists demanded. Maybe they don't want the IRA to go away because it gives them an excuse to bash the Catholics.

A United Ireland would actually be better in terms of reducing tensions. Note the lack of intercommunal violence in areas of the South e.g. Donegal where large Protestant populations live. A good model for a UI.

Not love ulster but Colm has posted the following on A Tangled Web:-

"The only people who have real grievances worth considering are law abiding citizens who try and go about their daily business of living working and raising their families and hoping for a government and police service that will genuinely create and enforce a rule of law.

The (mostly) teenagers and other thugs who stick hoods over their heads and hurl petrol bombs and blast bombs at anyone else - police or civilian targets - have no legitimate grievances worth considering. they are the ones causing grief for everyone else. This applies to both communities.

You can be annoyed because a march is re-routed/not re-routed and protest civilly but it is never justificable to use violence to effect such a protest. "

It has provoked a consensus including David Vance and Jo!

WHEN IS THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND GOVERNMENT TO REMOVE THEIR IMPERILIST AIMS AND DECLARE THAT THEY HAVE "NO SELFISH, STRATEGIC OR ECONOMIC INTEREST IN NORTHERN IRELAND" AS WESTMINSTER DID DURING 1990, OR IS THAT FORGOTTEN!