I wonder what percentage the UK makes up in the New Irish. Do Celebs count double? :-)

Good question. I've got to head off from the PC now. Has anyone got the figures?

Is it just me or is this a very misleading article in that it seems to imply that nearly half a million Irish people moved to Britain between 1991 and 2001, which simply isn't the case.

I don't doubt that there were 494,000 Irish-born people in the UK in 2001 but I'd say most of them came long before 1991.

I don't know where the 1.14 million immigrants mentioned in the report came from but half of them certainly weren't Irish.

The 2002 Irish census revealed that 375,000 people have returned from the UK to Ireland while also showing that there was net inward migration of 162,000 between 1991 and 2002.

I thought it was basing the whole thing on foreign-born residents in GB, in which case the Irish figure is entirely plausible. What's very striking about this report is the fact that the Irish-born population seems to have fallen by 16%. I suppose there are fewer new Irish immigrants and many Irish people who migrated in the 50s etc are beginning to die of old age.

On people from GB in Ireland, a report from the migration centre in University College Cork has a few charts on this. In the first one, it looks like migration from outside the EU/US has just edged above migration from the UK (incl. NI?). But another chart reveals the sheer numbers of people from England and Wales that were living in Ireland in 1996: roughly 140,000, representing about 3.5% of the population. I imagine that that figure has gone up in the last ten years.

I'd imagine the figure of 2001 are almost certainly out of date since the opening up of the EU. This would affect both the ROI and UK % figures from 2001.

At least we topped the group in some category today. What's
our chances of beating France in Dublin tonight? Hopefully it
won't be a case of "Oh ye of little 'fait accompli'".

The Irish Central Statistics Office (www.cso.ie) allows you to compose your own tables and according to its figures 138,000 people emigrated to the UK from Ireland from 1991-2001 inclusive.

In the same period, 212,000 people emigrated from the UK to Ireland.

The gap has widened considerably since then.

Between 2002 and 2004, 45,600 people emigrated from the UK to Ireland while 18,600 emigrated from Ireland to the UK.

For comparison, between 2002 and 2004 122,000 people came to Ireland from places other than the UK.

From memory, the number of Irish-born in GB fell by around 100,000 in the 1990's. I imagine a combination of death, return home(or to the USA etc) for improved job opportunities and maybe more study opportunities in Ireland now- less need to go to GB for study.

For most of the survey, Irish are excluded, as they just don't seem to count as foreigners. Apparently, the BBC thinks Ireland is in the British Isles. Was there not a debate about this before on Slugger? :->

'the BBC thinks Ireland is in the British Isles'.

It is.

"It is."

No, it's right beside it though. ;)

'No, it's right beside it though. ;)'

I've given up the fight on that one long ago. I don't feel like stopping anyone from the UK or its organisations from including Ireland within the geographical term British Isles.

I wouldn't include the island of Ireland in the term British Isles, but we can't stop other people using it.

It was a legitamate term long before England decided to follow in St Pats footsteps.

Besides, the term Irish Isles includes NI, although some of those living there are British. Saddos that they are! :-)

"I wouldn't include the island of Ireland in the term British Isles, but we can't stop other people using it."

This isn't a subjective matter. The island of Ireland is part of the British Isles and always has been. In geography is is quite common to call an archipelego by the name of the largest island in the group. The Caymans, the Canaries are other examples. It is not political.

'This isn't a subjective matter.'

Just because something was known as something once doesn't mean it can't be changed.

Terms are not intransigent.

Besides, you're not that insecure, Keith? British is as British does.

Keith M
'This isn't a subjective matter. The island of Ireland is part of the British Isles and always has been. In geography is is quite common to call an archipelego by the name of the largest island in the group. The Caymans, the Canaries are other examples. It is not political.'

Sorry to be a right pain, but as a resident of the largest island in the Canaries, Tenerife, it is not only not political, it is not true.

There are also about another 270,000 Nordies over here as well.

Heres one for you. When did the term British first come to mean all of England, Scotland and Wales?

Just curious.

Keith
"It is not political."

Of course is it. Honestly, how can "British" or "Irish" be anything but political? :)

Heres one for you. When did the term British first come to mean all of England, Scotland and Wales?

It began to be used in its modern sense after the 1707 Act of Union and was quite a 'mature' political term by the mid-18th Century (look at the use of the term British by, e.g., the Scottish Enlightenment thinkers).

See Linda Colley and Niall Ferguson for contrasting takes on the development of a British identity.

An alternative name for the archipeligo has been suggested as The Brettans. Closer apparently to the original name given by the Roman geographer. A bit confusing for the Bretons perhaps.

The British Isles is the complete archipelago found to the north of Brittany in France. The biggest bit is called Great Britain and smaller bits are made up from various islands including Ireland.
The term British Isles is geographical (not geo-political).
Subjects of the United Kingdom are known as being British even though geographically the term could be used for inhabitants of the whole geographic region. It's no different to 'Americans' using the term American as an inhabitant of North America whereas Canadians are still inhabitants of North America but prefer a different political term.

You can claim 'Ireland' is not in the British Isles as much as you like, but it's a bit silly, it's like arguing Canada is not in North America.

NRK
"it's like arguing Canada is not in North America"

You fail to understand the point that to many people the term is political, it is not simply geographical. Irish people (excl British) don't like to be called British, that is a big part of the problem.
Anyway we've done this subject to death many times here.
Btw many Canadians I know don't like to be called American.

maca

I do see the point. 'British' as a nationality is a political term (ala American). 'British Isles' is a geographical term (ala North America).
The original comment wasn't about Irish citizens being called British but about whether Ireland is in the British Isles.

NRK
"'British Isles' is a geographical term (ala North America). The original comment wasn't about Irish citizens being called British but about whether Ireland is in the British Isles."

Yes but they are linked so obviously you miss the point.

Maybe we could get over this "British Isles" nomenclature problem if the English agreed to stop masquerading as Bretons and finally admitted they're Germans or Inselaffen as they're called on ze mainland.

We could call them the British and English Isles if they want.

George - you'll be telling us that Ulster isn't in Ireland next.

maca: Of course is it. Honestly, how can "British" or "Irish" be anything but political? :)

Well, maybe, but that means we have to sort out a new name for the "Irish Sea" too. ;-)

Reader
"Well, maybe, but that means we have to sort out a new name for the "Irish Sea" too. ;-)"

Whatever turns you on Reader. Difference of course is no-one is called Irish because the live in the Irish sea.

maca: Difference of course is no-one is called Irish because the live in the Irish sea

Though there are certainly those who would tell me what my identity should be because I live to the west of it!

How many people tell Bertie Ahern he's a Brit because he lives in the British Isles? Or is the real (perceived!) problem that people are told they are British because they live in the UK? That's a different issue. (For the record, I support the Good Friday Agreement position - "British, Irish, or both")

west of it

Never realised there were so many Germans living in Britain.

There aren't- they're British military born in Germany. Ethnic Germans in Britain are mainly students and the Royal Family:>

NRK,
"George - you'll be telling us that Ulster isn't in Ireland next."

It was slightly tongue in cheek as we all know that there never really was a mass settlement of Saxons during the German migrations, and they never did push the Bretons, or wealas as they liked to call them, to the north and west.

And England has nothing to do with the Germanic Angles and sure there isn't a Jute, Frisian or Frank to be found there for love or money.

And of course, English isn't a Germanic language either. No sir, no way. Gottes Willen nie! (God's will never!)

But you are right about Ulster though.

Only part of it is in Ireland, politically that is. Geographically now that's a different matter.

P.S. That's tongue in cheek too.

George, as I remember it is was around 150,000 Irish emigrants who have returned to the Republic, not 375,000. I understand in answer to what someone here asked around 200,000 people from the UK live in the South, although many of the 50,000 from the North probably see themselves as Irish tather than British, as they tend to be of a Nationalist origin.