The most sensible article I've read on the situation.

Put the whole thing online.. What's Newton going to do?.. Sue Slugger?

Agreed - its an excellent article - I will be sending a letter into the IT later today commending it.

Its refreshing to see this compared to the shallow Bush Bashing/Anti-US rhetoric that passes for debate in this locale.

(not that I want to defend Bush either - he did himself no favours by not coming back from vacation).

"sensible Americans of all races will be more concerned by trite, cynical and dangerous political opportunism"

From my experience of Americans when it comes to the racial divide there are far too few sensible ones.

And you have a great deal of experience on this fair deal? Most people are confused by race issues, particularly white people. They don't understand white privilege and it's an issue, like sectarianism, that people prefer to avoid. Does this make people insensible or just confused?

Columnists- heal thyselves!

Newt must have missed Mario Cuomo's bravura performance
on Sky news the other day. Otherwise we would also have
been treated to a statistical comparison of his Democratic
stewardship with that of Republican Rudolph Giuiliani as
Mayor of New York City.

Animus

"you have a great deal of experience on this fair deal"

My experience is from living in the USA.

I'd like to mention that I'm not supporting Bush's typically atrocious performance here either.
I just think a lot of the facts are being overlooked in a gleeful, half-arsed media stampede to slap it up him.

What was the Mario Cuomo thing?

Newton

Well done. That was a great article. I'm no Bush fan either but it is getting to the stage that the bias against him in the media is getting in the way of the facts.

Could you elaborate fair deal? Do you really think it is a matter of being sensible or a sense of paralysis about what is a fraught and dangerous issue?

The other point is that Americans are not alone in having confusion over race issues - Northern Ireland is struggling as well. I do tire of the "Americans are all stupid" type of comment.

I agree the chimp in chief has been woeful, and despite the incompetence of local state and city authorities Bush should have realised that as Harry Trueman said "the buck stops here". And who’s idea was it to, when facing accusations of racism, go and visit Trent Lott?

Still while Bush may be no Ruddy Guilani he isn't the devil incarnate, which is what you would think from the mainstream media in Britain and Ireland. In particular John Snow on C4 news and John Humpheries on Today, the anti-American, visceral hatred is palpable.

Two other little convenient myth's are been built up over the crisis.

One that Bush is responsible because he pulled the rug under Koyoto and thus exacerbated global warming. This ignores the fact that there's been as many hurricanes this century as there has been in the last couple.

Second one is that if it wasn't for Iraq it wouldn't have been so bad. Only 10% of the US's armed forces are tied up in Iraq. There was more than enough national resources to deal with it.

The real problem was bureacracy, another related story is that it's the fault of Bush’s supposed republican assault on big government

Animus

Americans are far from stupid and that was not my comment meant to claim or imply.

I love to visit and stay in America every few years as it is a superb recharge. The 'can-do' approach is revitalising most especially in comparison of working and living in Northern Ireland.

The term I would think would apply best is blindspot. The inability to see or acknowledge the glass ceilings in many organisations. The racial divisions among the same classes. Community leaders so used to working an identity politics system that they are prepared to overlook the harm it causes and are willing to excuse actions of their own communities even to their own detriment.

Fair enough, I think blindspot is an accurate description. I think that community leaders stay away from delving too deeply because they are more concerned with their own reputations/careers and are less concerned with healing community division - bringing us neatly back to the point of Newton's article.

Newton

Cracking article, although I have a few comments, if I may be so bold:

"As the full horror of this sinks in, thousands of desperate columnists are asking if an official inquiry will shift the blame for poor planning and inadequate flood defences on to the White House. The answer is almost certainly yes, provided nobody admits that emergency planning is largely the responsibility of city and state agencies."

Is that right? I thought that: "The Federal Emergency Management Agency ... is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters. ... As it has for more than 20 years, FEMA's mission remains: to lead America to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from disasters with a vision of "A Nation Prepared.""

"The answer is that only a civilised city can descend into anarchy."

That comment may be many things, but it's not an answer to the question posed. The question posed raises fundamental questions about the nature of America, its culture of violence, the right to bear arms, the treatment of marginalised African-Americans. Bush-led (or rather neo-con-led) America has, in my view, become more violent and more tolerant of violence, more insidiously racist and more tolerant of racism, and more paranoid about foreigners than almost any other nation on earth. I don't think it's such a stretch to see repurcussions of this in the handling of Katrina.

"Otherwise sensible Americans of all races will be more concerned by trite, cynical and dangerous political opportunism."

You see, this is why I hate liberals (such as myself). When conservatives get a liberal down they kick him in the head until he dies. Then they keep kicking him in the head until he dies again. Then they keep kicking his inert corpse until they are literally too exhausted to continue kicking. By that time, though, they have usually gotten another liberal down and are rejuvenatedly kicking him.

When liberals get a conservative down, they start looking at things objectively, giving him the benefit of the doubt, seeing the bigger picture, inviting him to kick back and generally helping him back into office.

Newton, Henry, I get the impression you're fairly liberal guys, which is why I wanted to say that I don't care if Bush isn't as much in the wrong as he's being protrayed as being. The American public is stupid, as the public is everywhere (me included). Let's kick him mercilessly until we have no kick left. That way, just maybe, we'll hole the republicans below the waterline for next time. This is a global war on intolerance. I want to win it.

So, in this global war on intolerance, remind me again which side it is you are on?

Speaking of Bush, this is what his mammy had to say when visiting the Houston astrodome:

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this .. is working very well for them."

I can see where George gets his brains.

MCT

I don't care if Bush isn't as much in the wrong as he's being protrayed as being. The American public is stupid, as the public is everywhere (me included). Let's kick him mercilessly until we have no kick left. That way, just maybe, we'll hole the republicans below the waterline for next time.

Two problems with that. First if the media take that approach then they lose credibility on the facts. I don't mind anyone being slated in an opinion piece but I want the facts presented reasonably objectively.

To give an example closer to home, the credibility of the Sunday Independent on the north was not destroyed by the opinions of Eoughan Harris but by the reporting of the likes of Jim Cusack.

The second point is that when the media hound a political figure it actually protects him. Remember Charlie Haughey who had to contend with a barrage of negative media which galvanised his own support to the extent that even when the media got it right they didn't have the credibility to be believed.

The bottom line is that we need to know that what is reported as fact is fact.

MCT, I get your point but I had the good fortune to be in America for the last election on a truly superb junket whose itinerary included spending time in TV, radio and newspaper newsrooms as well as attending Bush and Kerry rallies and meeting party officers, congressmen, lobbyists, pollsters and academics in Boston and Kentucky. They were all kicking Bush in the head with both size nines - even the nice lady from Fox who interviewed us in Louiseville whispered afterwards: "I don't really believe in this stuff you know, it's just a job".

Thing is, every voter we met - and I mean every single one - was quietly furious about it.

Valid criticism works. Endless and transparently opportunistic criticism doesn't. It just gets people's backs up. There is a very real chance that the overblown criticism of Bush during the last week will let him off the hook over the coming months as most of it turns out to be way off the mark.

On Sky news, Mario Cuomo (who was a pioneering and
exemplary Governor of New York) seemed to suggest that it
was all Bush's fault, or at least that of the Federal
administration, that things went so badly wrong in the wake of
Hurricane Katrina. His own reign as Governor shows how much
difference a good State administration can make in the great
scheme of things, as does the almost unqualified success of
Rudy Giuliani (as Mayor of New York) at local level.

Granted, New York is a much more populous and richer state
than Louisiana, but New Orleans strategic and political
importance means Local and State authorities should be held
accountable (if need be) for its own sins of commission or
omission, rather than expeciently putting it up George Bush
every time --- as you rightly say, Newton.

Besides, international news reports (even from Sky, Fox and
CNN, etc) were reporting for days that, mercifully, the storm
had passed to the East of New Orleans and perhaps 30 people
at most had been killed when one apartment block had
collapsed.

Then the levees broke, and all hell broke loose.

"So, in this global war on intolerance, remind me again which side it is you are on?"

I'm intolerant of intolerance. And proudly so. Got a problem with that?

H94/Newt

Fair point on opinion vs reporting, unfair opportunistic criticism, etc. I'm not advicating lies, but on certain points we've got him, so let's nail him.

I disagree on the second point, though. The media will no longer protect Bush - the arrogance of the administration has alienated all but the TangledWebs of this world - he's toast if we choose to burn him.

We won't of course, because we're weenie liberals.

Richard,

Thats what puzzled me most about this, was the apparent "relieved" reporting first, showing the damage yes, but then as you say all hell broke loose.

Then the levees broke, and all hell broke loose.

Richard, it may not be true that the levees broke well after the storm.

As an American, I appreciate the interest of all in the problems created by Hurricane Katrina. Please help however you can.

As a liberal Democrat I will be the last person to defend George Bush, but the reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated. Recent polls look just like November 2004: if you loved him you still love him, if you hated him you still hate him.

I am currently living just north of Austin were thousands of survivors have been moved to.. Talking to them the over riding feeling is one of annimiosity toward central government and towards Bush in particular for not doing enough to address the crisis. Everyone and I have talked to about 200 now have said that America responded better and more quickly to the victims of last year Tsunami and they are bitter about it. This may not be the view held by the rest of America but its the view held by a number of surivors

I'd like to know how I could get on one of these junkets that Mr Emerson enjoys. After all, my acid and bile are at least as potent as his. Or at least my own reactionary newspaper column where I can take pot-shots at Roy Garland.

It's always easier to be wise after the event. But, as James
Joyce said 'Mistakes are the portals of discovery'.

So, it's not surprising, joc, that initial reports were widely
optimistic about the scale of the problem. But equally, John,
when the levees broke (and when it became obvious that this
was the defining moment in the unfolding tragedy), only then
was the time ripe for many to put the proverbial boot into the
President. And the perfect opportunity to look for scapegoats
and that one, reluctant sacrificial lamb.

Superb article by Newton Emerson. I read his bits and pieces in the IT and Irish News. The ODD one I disagree with, but most I think is excellent - keep it up, big lad.

This is probably the first time in my life I don't completely agree with Newton.

While it would be quite wrong to say "if someone else had been in power this disaster would have been averted", Bush was pretty clearly slow to react and there is also a clear lack of proper mechanisms to deal with the outcome of a sudden storm or flood. The order to send in the national guard did not come until 48 hours after the disaster had become apparent.

And it's a total joke that Bush is leading an investigation into himself.

MCT

When I started reading your post I thought that you were, like Newton, being rhetorical. But when I finished I realized that you were dead serious. Scary stuff.

Seems like there are still some hysterical liberals out there trying to put blame where it doesn’t quite belong. I think you need to pay a little more attention to what Newton is saying. Overblown criticism gets people’s backs up. You sound like you are blinded by your own intolerance and that your objectivity is out the window. For example:

the arrogance of the administration has alienated all but the TangledWebs of this world - he's toast if we choose to burn him. Fanciful thinking. Mr Bush has alienated all but the TangledWebs of this world, plus a rather significant 62 million Americans.

marginalised African-Americans Name any president who has had as many hyphenated Americans in senior positions as in the Bush administration. Democrats talk equality and respect, Republicans practice it.

When conservatives get a liberal down they kick him in the head until he dies. …When liberals get a conservative down, they start looking at things objectively Have you any idea how ludicrous that sounds?

I'm intolerant of intolerance. And proudly so. Got a problem with that? Say no more.

Way to Go - Newton

"..thousands of desperate columnists "...
Slugger to a tee.

What day does Newt's Mirror column appear? Missed it last week...

fair deal said: "Community leaders so used to working an identity politics system that they are prepared to overlook the harm it causes and are willing to excuse actions of their own communities even to their own detriment."

What, like Ruth Patterson, you mean?

(No need to respond, just windin' ye up.)

"I'd like to know how I could get on one of these junkets that Mr Emerson enjoys. After all, my acid and bile are at least as potent as his. Or at least my own reactionary newspaper column where I can take pot-shots at Roy Garland."

Therein lies the rub, attacking Roy Garland doesn't make you mainstream media material. Eric Waugh is about as Unionist as they are prepared to get.

Mr. Dowling, your comments about Gov. Cuomo's actions as Governor of New York betray a certain lack of knowledge. During Cuomo's time as Governor New York, a hurricane came ashore on Long Island, not too far east of the NYC line. Then Mayor Ed Koch was down in the parts of NYC facing on the Ocean trying to persuade people to evacuate low-lying beaches. New Jersey's Governor and Connecticut's Governor had declared states of emergency and ordered ocean-front evacuations the previous evening. Gov. Cuomo FINALLY ordered evacuations about 11:00 AM the next morning when the leading edge of the storm was already ashore. The eye of the storm came ashore about 2:00-3:00 PM and our village was in the eye.

Shore-front evacuation was just about impossible on any signifcant scale when Cuomo finally moved.

The day after the storm Cuomo toured the southern shore of Long Island by helicopter and declared that only millionaire's beach homes were damaged or destroyed so no real harm. Turned out that some 1.5 million people had lost electric power and some thousands were homeless.

And Cuomo got lucky because the summer had been a cool one and water temperatures in the ocean between the Gulf Stream and the shore were somewhat cooler than usual which weakened the hurricane somewhat before it came ashore.

I rather suggest that Mr. Cuomo is about the least credible critic of President Bush's actions in view of Cuomo's inactions when he was faced with a major storm.

Interesting news report on ITN this evening

Hundreds of military personnel patrolling empty white middle class areas and hundreds of dead bodies lying untouched in poor black areas

Strange logic

Look at the big picture, Bob. Mario Cuomo was twice returned
to office, and served 12 distinguished years as Governor.
Either he had someting going for him or the people of New
York couldn't see past their noses. I think the people knew
exactly what they wanted, and what they got. But even the
best make mistakes.

And I think it was a mistake for Mr Cuomo to take party
political issue with President Bush's handling of Hurricane
Katrina, in a way which Bill Clinton obviously did not. But I also
think it is a mistake for you to be so selectively dismissive of the
former Governor's achievements because he doesn't measure
up to some idealised picture of your hero --- even if that hero is
Ed Koch!

But you raise a valid issue, Bob. Thank you for that.

PS. I just heard Newt Gingrich on CBS news stating that
no-one (Republican or Democrat) was happy to see American
citizens lying face down in toxic water, at this stage of the
catastrophe. Would he have done any better? Or Mario
Cuomo? I'm not so sure. It's all proving to be a logistical
nightmare. And perhaps a political timebomb as well.

By the by, Mr McGowan, it wasn't so much that Mario Cuomo
got lucky, as it was that the people of Long Island were spared
the deadly consequences of a hurricane. That's a telling
difference, and it says something about your analysis of the
events in question that their good fortune should somehow
seem less important than the implied regret that the Governor
should 'catch a break' because no-one was killed. How lucky
can you get?

Hear hear! Bravo, sir, bravo! (And thanks to the host for getting permission and posting it here for the rest of us.)

All you fine folks seem to be forgetting that pesky ol' US Constitution.

The President cannot, repeat CAN NOT simply declare the Federal Government in charge. It has to be asked. Pres. Bush Declared an Emergency long before Katrina squatted and shat. The governess and mayor didn't make the decision to ask for Federal help until after Evil Kat had stood up, wiped and moved on. In the meantime they continually made and continue to make unbelievably bad decisions based on almost totally political considerations. Because of this thousands died and thousands more will die.

The citizens of Louisiana and New Orleans voted these utterly corrupt ultra liberal parasites in and now must live with it. Unfortunately people like me who live 2000 miles away in the far corner of the US will be bled white for the next twenty years to pay for it.

You all should actually read the US Constitution. It will take about twenty minutes, it's a short document in Plain English.
If you should do it rejoice that you've done something that less that 15 out of a hundred elected officials and almost no reporters in The United States has done.

Cheers,

Gerry N.
Just North of Seattle, Washington

Gerry N.

You took the words right out of my mouth!

Some worthwhile journalistic stuff is being done here in the US, but is a little unsettling that one must go to Ireland to see such robust good sense.

Wonderful post, Newton. Then I read some of the comments. People, Gerry N. says all that needs to be said: FEDERALISM

The short version, for those of you who failed social studies, is that all political power does NOT reside in one person/gov't entity, eg, like the President. Local matters (such as a Cat 5 hurricane) are first supposed to be handled locally. Then, if requested, the State steps in. Then, IF REQUESTED, the Feds step in. FEMA is not some big behemoth waiting for the opportunity to spring into action...it is an agency that COORDINATES and TRAINS local/state/federal resources to handle emergencies. The trouble in New Orleans is CLEARLY a problem of state and local negligence....I am utterly confident that any reasoned and fair investigation will reveal this to be true....and the Federal missteps were largely due to the increased need DUE TO that negligence. There was a serious cascade effect. For example, had the mayor and governor done their jobs and evacuated the city (what part of MANDATORY was hard to understand?), there would have been a MINIMAL need for search and rescue.

I find it remarkable that the very people who despise Bush so are the same ones that, in this instance, want to give him Emperor-like power....

If FEMA and the federal response is so lousy, where are the screams from Mississippi, Alabama, South Florida? Have you seen Biloxi? If FEMA and the feds are so incompetent, how did they survive hurricane Ivan and the four consecutive disasters that struck Florida last year?

The big story has been, and remains, the incredible incompetence of the Mayor and the Governor in executing any sort of evacuation. One cannot escape the fact that without the Superdome and Convention Center being established as refuge with no water, no food, no transportation and no hope, nothing the Bush Administration did or could have done would have significantly changed the outcome!

The Red Cross and Salvation Army are both still being held from entering the city by the locals. This is not happening in the states where the adults are in charge.

alleviated the situation!

Gerry,

Thanks for the bit on the Constitution and how right you are about that most elected politicians and almost all reporters know nothing about it. As an add on, if Pres. Bush had ordered the military in before getting the go ahead from Gov. Blanco, her lawyers, who do know the Constitution, would have been all over him.

There's lots of stuff coming out that the mainstream media here in America (and nowhere outside the US) are either ignoring or double- and triple-checking. A report came out last night that the Homeland Security Department that kept the Red Cross out of the Superdome and Convention Center was not the Federal department, but the state of Louisiana's own Homeland Security Department, which has nothing to do with the Federal version or FEMA. This group is with the Governor's office, not the Pres. Gerry is right:

"The citizens of Louisiana and New Orleans voted these utterly corrupt ultra liberal parasites in and now must live with it. Unfortunately people like me who live 2000 miles away in the far corner of the US will be bled white for the next twenty years to pay for it."

It's a great article.

Steve T
Southwest of Chicago

Followed the link from hughhewitt.com.

Thanks for your insight. There are two things I have learned in the time since the levees broke. The second most important is that the criteria we use should use to choose elected officials ought not be how big of a tax break or entitlement increase they promise, rather, we should consider which candidates with think clearly and act decisively in a crisis.

The most important is that no human problem has ever been caused by a lack of resources, they have only been caused by a lack of planning.

Honore' for President.

Followed the link from hughhewitt.com.

Thanks for your insight. There are two things I have learned in the time since the levees broke. The second most important is that the criteria we use should use to choose elected officials ought not be how big of a tax break or entitlement increase they promise, rather, we should consider which candidates will think clearly and act decisively in a crisis.

The most important is that no human problem has ever been caused by a lack of resources, they have only been caused by a lack of planning.

Honore' for President.

Mr Dowling,
How many times must you people fantasize about an imaginary 'political timebomb' just waiting to explode around President Bush? I don't know if this is just an ignorant statement or political wishful thinking on your part. In comparison to the other concerted efforts by our partisan American media, this is a walk in the park, one only needs to look back to the 2004 election to see a truly focused effort to defeat this man. He withstood every 'controversy,' they threw everything they had at hime, and he still won and carried the Republicans to a solid majority in Congress, something that will be repeated in 2006.

As to those who call our racial issues a 'blind spot', I can only state that you must not be aware of the way liberal politics, race, and mainstream media play the issue. If the only thing Euros see is CNN and the BBC concerning racial issues, then I understand why you gentlemen come off as ignorant fools, but this doesn't seem to be the case here, so who the hell knows the reason.

As an America-Mexican, a man of color, I can only smile and say that this racial crap is overhyped to a shrill degree by liberals and their ideological counterparts in the mainstream/exempt media.

We are a too well informed society with alternative sources of media, we now are more informed than ever to the games mainstream media plays, were not the ignorant, helpless racial minorities they love to make us out to be to score political points for their ideological brethren in media. Those days are rapidly coming to an end.

Look at me,I was born dirt poor in Mexico, immigrated here, never finished high school, but because of the way the economic system is set up here, I started my own succesful income property business with no money of my own and am about to start a totally different enterprise in healthcare. The can do American attitude will guaranty anybody success, you gentlemen are doing a great disservice to those of us who have overcome, and are helping to perpetuate what amounts to a lie. Anybody can make it here man, anybody.
Sorry if this shows up without paragraphs.

It never ceases to amaze me how many of the same people who last week were frothing at the mouth and calling President Bush a fascist tyrant are now crying long and loud complaining that he /didn't/ behave like a fascist tyrant.

And before anybody gets his or her knickers in a knot, no, I'm not referring specifically to anyone here. Though if the shoe fits ...

In the second to last paragraph, I meant to write, "to score political points for their ideological brethren in the DEMOCRATIC PARTY"

Sorry about that.

I lived in New Orleans for 10 years. It is the most corrupt, filthy, and poorly run place I have seen in the US. It is now, and has always been run by Democrats. No one I know was surprised in the slightest that there was looting. And with the police joining in. This would happen in only a few American cities. You will observe that it did not happen in New York for 9/11. It did not happen in Mississippi for Katrina and it did not happen in Florida for Andrew.

The standard declaration of a disaster area typically starts with the hurricane making landfall. Then the governor requests a designation of disaster area. The President flies over it, and declares the disaster some 2 or 3 days after the fact.

Bush declared Louisiana and Mississippi to be disaster areas 2 days BEFORE the hurricane hit. He was personally on the phone to this Governor Blanco woman begging her to make a mandatory evacuation, which she refused to do for a precious 24 hours.

The governor is in charge of the National Guard of her state, not Bush, so their lack of presence in the hours after the storm is the fault of the Governor. Blanco also refused the help of National Guard from other states.

The democrat mayor Nagin failed to use school busses or city busses to move the poor from the SuperDome to Baton Rouge as called for in their own evacuation plan. Those busses are now submerged and ruined, but easily seen in satellite photos. One enterprising teenager commandeered one such bus and drove his friends and people they met on the road to Houston. Tellingly, New Orleans officials are considering charging him with a crime.

The Red Cross is now claiming that they had staged both food and water to feed the poor and indigent in the SuperDome, but the governor (or her people) prevented them from supplying any of this in the hours after the storm hit because they didn't want the people there to become complacent and want to stay. The Red Cross is furious about this and has been trying to go public with it.

In the aftermath of the storm, Governor Barbour in Mississippi immediately declared martial law and had sufficient Guard troops on hand to prevent looting. This is why you are not hearing much about Mississippi which, if you can believe it, was hit harder by the actual storm.

Governor Blanco refused to declare martial law in a city that is marginally lawless on a good day, with predictable results.

The feds responded in force within 3 days. It took 9 days to respond to Andrew, so Bush has sped up the federal response by 300%.

Some engineers before the storm expressed the opinion that it did not make sense to strengthen the levees to protect the city from cat 4 storm or greater, since the winds would flatten most of the buildings in town. There was a fear that stronger levees would paradoxically result in more deaths.

In any event, the Army Corps plan was to put massive flood gates between the Gulf and Lake Pontchartrain, but this plan was defeated by green leftists who wanted to see the lake and the delta go back to their natural state. A wish they may now get.

This would all be nothing more than yet another scandal for Louisiana if we had an objective, fair press, which has instead become so partisan and shrill that more and more people simply don't believe them anymore.

The Newton Emerson article captures it perfectly.

Posted by: Gerry N. at September 9, 2005 03:34 AM:


> Pres. Bush Declared an Emergency long before Katrina squatted and


> shat. The governess and mayor didn't make the decision to ask for


> Federal help until after Evil Kat had stood up, wiped and moved on




Now look at the
KATRINA TIMELINE,
posted many places.




Friday, August 26


GOV. KATHLEEN BLANCO DECLARES STATE OF EMERGENCY IN LOUISIANA: [Office
of the Governor]


GULF COAST STATES REQUEST TROOP ASSISTANCE FROM PENTAGON: At a 9/1
press conference, Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, commander, Joint Task Force
Katrina, said that the Gulf States began the process of requesting
additional forces on Friday, 8/26. [DOD]




Saturday, August 27


5AM - KATRINA UPGRADED TO CATEGORY 3 HURRICANE [CNN]


GOV. BLANCO ASKS BUSH TO DECLARE FEDERAL STATE OF EMERGENCY IN
LOUISIANA: "I have determined that this incident is of such severity
and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of
the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary
Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property,
public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a
disaster." [Office of the Governor]


FEDERAL EMERGENCY DECLARED, DHS AND FEMA GIVEN FULL AUTHORITY TO
RESPOND TO KATRINA: "Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify,
mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources
necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency." [White House]


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Why do Bush apologists like Gerry N. brazenly circulate exculpatory falsehoods
that are so easy to debunk? Law professor Paul Campos gives the answer
here.

Just rambeling ... Mr. Emerson had a good post; yet many of the comments here seem grudgingly in agreement....yes the liberals have gone to far but.....

I'm a strong believer that we should forget what someone says before the "but", and pay attention to everything after the "but" regarless of which form it comes in.

So my one question would be, why is it your eyes are opened now, but you are unwilling to re-evaluate all previous positions when you received all your data from the sources you now acknowledge as wrong?

Cheers,

Timothy

Hey! Dumbasses! Blanco signed the state of emergency and delivered it to Bush on the 27th. That would be several days BEFORE the storm hit. While local and state officials aren't blameless, don't you think it unfortunate that the feds stood by and watched it happen? And what of all the "NO ONE could have foreseen this coming" statements coming out of chertoff, brown, and bush? Clearly lies, how can you deny it? and then there's the embarrassment of seeing brown learn about major refugee locations from journalists WHILE BEING INTERVIEWED ON LIVE TV!

While we're at it, I'd also like to point out that unless republicans have magical anti-flooding powers, there may be more to the differences between NO and those other places than merely the party affiliations of the leaders.

I would agree that in the complete breakdown of communications, there was no command and control and at that point (which I would say was around the levees started to go late Tuesday night after the storm) Bush failed to lead and therefore the breakdown continued.

Some one asked about FEMA scope of responsibility above. Your outline was not accurate. In accordance with the Constitution and a host of regulations (see the Stafford Act), the Governor of a state has responsibility and authority before, during, and after a disaster. Think of FEMA as more of an insurance adjustor. It's in an insurance company's interest to work with you to reduce your exposure to a disaster and implement things to mitigate the degree of damage should a disaster occur. (FEMA does this by providing grants and consulting to states so they can prepare their plans, train their first responders, build shelters, etc. Once a disaster has occured, an insurer (FEMA) doesn't assume authority for the recovery - the Governor is still responsible and has authority to request, approve, disapprove anything the insurer (FEMA) wants to do.

Sorry this is a bit rambly. For a clearer summary of the relationship between State role and FEMA, take a look at Senator Landrieu's (LA) (page down to "Disaster Assistance"): website. Here's an excerpt:

The Louisiana Department of Emergency Preparedness is responsible for all initial damage assessment prior to federal involvement.

The "State of Emergency" that rog77 and bro refer to that they tout as asking the President for FEMA to take control of the situation does no such thing. They ignore the "Enclosure A" to it which breaks out the request and shows that Gov. Blanco asked for MONEY only for various post-storm clean up activities. She did not even request funds, much less physical help, for "Distribution of emergency supplies" and none for "Coordination" -- the two areas where they claim FEMA failed. The "Emergency protective measures" are totaled up at a paltry $9 million and do not include a request for anything other than funds.

The President gave her everything she asked for.

Delfinia - Gov Blanco also asked for help with debris removal.

There are NO Newspapers or TV stations or any Lame Stream media that are truthful.

That is why they are so despised!

If you want the Truth about the aftermath of Katrina, it is coming out now. All Red Cross and Salvation Army attempts to enter New Orleans to deliver food and water were denied by the Louisiana Dept. of Homeland Security from the day Katrina hit, last Monday. That entry of the city by a relief organization is under the control of Governor Blanco. She has NEVER given the two largest relief organizations permission to enter New Orleans. So, people died as a result of her incompetence! She will answer for that in court. (The Red Cross and Salvation Army are still barred from the city today)!

That permission to relieve New Orleans would have stopped the food and water problems last Tuesday. We have CLEAR DISTINCTIONS as to what the FEDS can and cannot do in each state. It goes back to 1865, the end of our War Between the States.

As for Kyoto, NO SANE PERSON in America of ANY political persuasion is stupid enough to try to kill their economy with that garbage!

Kyoto failed in a Senate Vote by 95 to 0 in a vote while Clinton was President. Kyoto will NEVER BE ACCEPTED by ANY intelligent American. It is specifically designed to harm America, so we say "To Hell with You" on that issue.

There are NO EUROPEAN COUTRIES that will comply with their own Kyoto requirements (NOW or EVER), so we say to all of Europe on that issue.... After You, Mate!

The US was founded by people who did not trust government. Even today most of us here in America don't trust government, any government. We never have. But we usually trust local government more than state and state more than federal. They just get more out of touch the higher up you go. Because of our mistrust of government the federal government is prevented from doing many things in a state without the approval of state government. This is a GOOD thing. In 99% of the cases this is a good thing, in this case it was not. The reason it was not is because the local AND state officials were incompetent at best.

The way the media is spinning this, they think we need the federal government to be responsible for all local emergency planning and deployment. It's the local government who controls the first responders like firemen, paramedics, and police NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

It's the state that controls the national guard, highway patrol and state police NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

The media also seems to think the only way to build a levy is with federal money. They also forget that the environmentalists were dead set against any of the changes to strengthen the levys.

The reason federal officials were saying that no one expected the levees to break was that the storm MISSED New Orleans. For some time after the storm hit, Louisiana officials and all of the news anchors in place were saying that New Orleans had dodged the bullet.

So the FEMA guy was right when he said that no one thought the levees would break from this storm (until they did). You make it sound instead like they were making the ridiculous statement that no one knew that a direct hit from a cat 4 or 5 would top the levees.

And that timeline is quite misleading.

Also for perspective this is kinda like the UK expecting the EU to come in and take charge and save everyone after London was hit by a hurricane. That is if there was an EU and if the UK joined it.

New Orleans is majority black, majority poor, and has a murder rate 10 times the national average. All of the politics are identity and race based, with the mayor being the guy that promises the best hit at the man, basically.

Louisiana is so corrupt its a punch line. The last three insurance commissioners are in prison. The have open primaries which resulted in a run-off between a klansman and a criminal for the republican ticket (the former had run as a democrat for the previous six elections), resulting in Blanco being handed the election.

You'll note that neither of those offices have criteria that involve executive competence.

Are there any moderators here who could check the IP addresses of some of the above posts ? I could be wrong about this, but it's rather suspicious that a long string of people, one after the other, and all with different names but yet very similar posting style and argument have followed up to say essentially the same thing. If this is the case, it seems like abuse of Slugger's comment system.

'bro', most of what a state of emergency and declaring a place a disaster zone accomplishes is expedited federal funding of recovery efforts.

As far as the 'magical anti-flooding powers' are concerned, I'll let you in on a little secret: building a city on the coast below sea level isn't very smart.

As for ridiculing Bush and Michael Brown of FEMA for saying that, "No one expected the levee to break," precisely the same thing is true of the Mayor and the Governor.



If the Mayor had really grasped that the levees were going to break, he might have actually at least tried to enforce his own evacuation plan and used some of the hundreds of buses available to him to evacuate his populace, the ones who had no other recourse and ended up in the SuperDome and the Convention center.



Moreover, the Governor might have actually NOT delayed 24 hours after Bush asked her to require a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans. And she or her staff might have checked to make sure that the mayor had actually enforced his own evacuation plan, the one that calls for him to use the city buses to evacuate the poor and the handicapped unable to get out on their own. Instead what she (or her staff did) was assume that the mayor had used the buses, and never checked up on it.



By way of redress, she authorized the school buses for the mandatory evacuation on Wednesday, after much of the fleet was already flooded and unusable.



This Governor is so incompetant, on such a rank level, that I cannot imagine she'll last very long after this.



Here she is as the NYTimes portrays her:

“I need everything you have got,” Ms. Blanco said she told Mr. Bush last Monday, after the storm hit. In an interview, she acknowledged that she did not specify what sorts of soldiers. “Nobody told me that I had to request that,” Ms. Blanco said.

She didn't want to give up an iota of her power to the Federal Government during this disaster and without invoking the Insurrection Act, President Bush was limited in what he could do.


Which has been obvious for over a week. It's just taken this long to get to the so-called official press.

whoops, sorry about all that bold. I evidently forgot to close a tag.

Comrade Stalin,

Facts are the same when stated by different people. Do you understand FACTS of Government responsibilities or not?

I get the feeling "middle-class taig" is from another country. Where I come from (the US) it's the "weenie liberals" who never let anything go and have completely ruined their reputation with their relentless whining about everything.

Although, maybe that just san francisco :)

I'm not saying this because I'm a conservative, because I'm not. I'm saying it as an observer, a libertarian observer. This is why I hate people, wishing something doesn't make it fact.

Jesus,
I've never read such reactionary, bury the head in the sand, lets all clap each other on the back, the bbc is sooo liberal, tripe in all my life.
Irish contributers at least have the excuse that they are politically and economically uninformed, but what about american contributions?
If i want regieme mouth piece propoganda, i could read the economist, the bbc or the nyt.
If you blog this shite, you serve no purpose.
You become an anti-blog and will shrivel up and die.

The case for not rebuilding

6cp

"when I finished I realized that you were dead serious. Scary stuff."

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

"Seems like there are still some hysterical liberals out there trying to put blame where it doesn’t quite belong."

Some of the blame for the disaster lies with central government. Practically all the blame for the disastrous response lies with central government. George Bush runs the central government. Do I have to draw you a picture?

"Overblown criticism gets people’s backs up. You sound like you are blinded by your own intolerance and that your objectivity is out the window."

Read those two sentences together back to yourself and feel wick.

"Mr Bush has alienated all but the TangledWebs of this world, plus a rather significant 62 million Americans."

I didn't notice an election since the disaster.

"Democrats talk equality and respect, Republicans practice it."

Yeah, so the residents of New Orleans can see. Like the residents of Fallujah and inmates at Guantánamo and Abu Ghraib. Spare us.

MCT

Practically all the blame for the disastrous response lies with central government. George Bush runs the central government. Do I have to draw you a picture?

To seize control of the response, Bush would have had to invoke the Insurrection Act, which allows the president in times of unrest to command active-duty forces into the states to perform law enforcement duties. But decision makers in Washington felt certain that Ms. Blanco (the governor) would have resisted surrendering control, as Bush administration officials believe would have been required to deploy active-duty combat forces before law and order had been re-established.

Officials in Louisiana agree that the governor would not have given up control over National Guard troops in her state as would have been required to send large numbers of active-duty soldiers into the area.

Some of the blame for the disaster lies with central government. Practically all the blame for the disastrous response lies with central government. George Bush runs the central government. Do I have to draw you a picture?
-middle-class taig

That may be how it works in your country. Not in the USA- here, dealing with the immediate aftermath of a disaster (event +72-96 hours) is primarily the responsibility of the State government, not the Federal.

The original piece that kicked off this thread is by far the best critique of the inane blame game that he been blowing with almost as much force as Katrina herself (the real, amoral and untouchable villain) since she struck. Just be humbled, humanity, and clear up both Katrina's and you own mess - and stop whining for pity's sake! If you park on the lips on one of Nature's a-holes, don't be surprised if you occasionally get covered in crap, including your own.

No leaddog, I am principally concerned about the damage that will be caused by the same person flooding a discussion with multiple posts of the same thing under different names.

Facts are great, but not when they're used selectively.

Them thur durn furriners is outta get us. It´s all a liberral commie leftie pinko plot. The sun shines out of the posterior of our great President Bush, who has the needs of the poor, the dispossessed and the overtaxed oil billionaires close to his heart.
Oh,and Keeyoto was designed solely to destroy our great land-the citizens of which have a godgiven right to drive their SUV´s until the last drop of gasoleen has been extracted from the earth...

FEMA prestaged its relief materials and equipment before Katrina hit New Orleans, and then sent in its usual search-and-rescue teams and coordinators, having never been informed by local and state officials that the city had not been evacuated. FEMA assumed that the locals had followed their disaster plans.

Then, after the levees were breached or the canal walls broke, FEMA was asked by Mayor Nagin to find hundreds of buses to carry out an evcuation.

So what this meant was that FEMA was forced to transform its relief mission to an evacuation mission WHILE ON THE ROAD, something it had never before attempted.

Between Tuesday and Thursday, while overseeing an affected area the size of the U. K., FEMA managed to round up 1100 buses from a hurricane-shattered region--somehow contacting bus companies, drivers, and dispatchers even though power, land lines, and cell-phone services were down--and came in across submerged roads, blocked freeways, and destroyed bridges, into a city 80% underwater and full of people rioting, murdering, raping, and starving because two-thirds of the police had disappeared and the state government had refused to let in the Red Cross and the Salvation Army and had not sent in enough National Guard troops.

And after this Herculean effort, FEMA was crapped on by the world's media, the Democratic party, and half of the country, and the president was declared a racist idiot responsible for the deaths of thousands.

Me, I'd be tempted to say "The hell with all of you" and retire, but the FEMA people and the Prez are made of sterner stuff.

I wonder what the opinions of some that have posted here would have been, if, the Governor and Mayor of LA had been Republican and the President had been a Democrat? If your allegiances shift North or South, well party loyalty is one thing and hypocrisy another and there’s a distinct whiff of hypocrisy in some of these posts.

Slugger O’Toole, most excellent post dude!

Well, I can see you don't understand the first thing about the American people. Namely, it's all about the Benjamins, baby. As in dollars.

America is headed for recession. Skyrocketing gas and heating oil. Burst real estate bubble and loss of cannibalized equity. PAIN. In the only place Americans feel pain - the pocketbook.

Meanwhile you will have the shameless Republicans who hold Congress like a dictatorship still trying to rake in profits- suspending "prevailing wage" rules in the hurricane zone, handing over contracts to cronies, trying to repeal estate tax, trying to make tax cuts permanent.

Republicans are vulnerable because the Americans are going to be feeling economic pain and the Republicans are too greedy to stop their mad grab for every last dirty dollar they can find.

Meanwhile the Democrats have a slate of principled, passionate Congressional candidates making their way toward 2006, including several Iraq War vets. (No vets are running as Republicans.)

Times are changing, and those who refuse to abandon their smug assumptions about "permanent majorities" (God, what an unAmerican concept) will be made to look like fools.

I'm sure Governor Blanco is quite probably incompetent. But Bush should have gotten off his arse from his 5 week holiday in Texas and actually acted like a Commander in Chief. Didn't one of his predecessors say "The buck stops here". The sight of dead bodies lying face down in the water a week after the hurricane in an allegedly civilised, first world country is an absolute disgrace and i don't care if you think it's liberal whining or an anti- Bush agenda it hsouldn't be happening and the rest of the world is absolutely incredulous at some of the media pictures.

“Republicans who hold Congress like a Dictatorship” I stopped reading after that BS. I will not be lectured to or believe anything someone says that hasn’t grasped the basic rudiments of DEMOCRACY.

Tom, the answer to that question is pretty obvious. The people who are blaming the Democrats would still be blaming the Democrats, and the people who are presently blaming the Republicans would still be blaming the Republicans.

This whole farce is showing only how corrupt and decrepit US democracy really is. Instead of getting together in the face of a disaster, the politicians are looking to blame each other. Meanwhile, no lessons will be learned to protect from a disaster like this in the future.

Henry

FEMA is central government, and they have been thoroughly useless. A military response is not the only response (difficult though that may be for south Armagh men to understand :-O).

Came here via Instapundit. Nice discussion after a excellent article. Interesting to see a view from outside the US.

Democrats have a slate of principled, passionate Congressional candidates

Principled Democrats? Thanks for the early morning laugh!

Oh - weenie liberals are running (into the ground) Illinois as well.

Yes, DICTATORSHIP. I absolutely do understand democracy and what we have in our one party state today is a situation where the minority party cannot get a single bill to the floor, can't propose any legislation, can't hold any officials accountable. We have the equivalent of the Mafia holding our country hostage right now, answering not to the people, but to the powers that be...i.e. corporate lobbyists.

And yeah, AL. Look out! It starts with Major Paul Hackett, fresh from Iraq, running for Senator from corrupt Ohio. This guy takes no prisoners and demonstrates eloquently the CONTEMPT that average Americans hold for our chickenhawk "president". Watch your slimemonsters try to swiftboat this guy. The American people have had it!

Enjoy, buddy. It's going to be a long year for you all!

I think there are a couple of misconceptions here - one being the the US has a central government which it does not. It has a Federal gov't with delineated powers but with very little power over state and local governments.

As for the assclowns referring to dictatorships and lack of democracy it's too bad you don't have the perspective from living or having worked in an actual dictatorship. Then you'd at least have some idea what you were talking about.

Let's all hope that everyone in America does not live in a State lead by Governor who, when faced with a crisis, sobs tearfully at how untenable the situation is, or live in cities lead by Mayors who, when faced with a crisis, abandon their people by providing no means for evacuation and who forget to follow the city's evacuation plan and are woefully unprepared in stocking necessary survival supplies.

If I were you living in such a State run by a Governor who needs at least a year to make a decision, I'd replace that Governor or move.

I live in NYC (15 years), I can already see the pattern emerging from politically correct Mayor Bloomberg and he is not at all prepared to deal with another attack the way Mayor Guiliani did. And, since I am prevented from obtaining a gun permit I plan to move to a State and city which allows me the right to defend myself. Taking my enormously overwhelming city tax dollars with me.

I cannot depend upon politically correct, indecisive, sobbing, and out-of-control State and Local leaders who depend upon 'someone else' to lead.

The Governor has more power over their populace than the President has power over all of the United States of America. The Governor's duty is not simply ribbon-cutting and hob-knobbing with Hollywood celebrities, the Governor must lead particualry in a time of dire crisis.

That said, after seeing Gov. Blanco's uncontrolled pity fest of 'I don't know what to do' tears, I do not forsee a female President who would be capable of coping with a crisis (I'm a liberalized from the GS age female and after seeing Blanco's criminally incompetant behavior, I do not want a female President anywhere near the White House) The image of weakness was shown, the damage has been done.

Richard Dowling: We New York voters threw the sanctimonious clown called Mario Cuomo out of office. The man is a complete fraud. Perhaps you don't remember the Thruway bridge that washed out while he was governor. He stopped the underwater inspections to save money for his beloved social programs. Only a dozen or so deaths, no big deal...

The man spent a lot of our money to achieve little.

Excellent article, thank you. Many of the comments here seem to indicate a profound lack of knowledge of the United States Constitution and the concept of Federalism.

Local and State authorities have always been the first responders - FEMA is no worse now than it was during Hurricane Ivan in 99 - when Clinton was President. FEMA is a bureaucracy that was created by Democrats and Republicans, not George Bush. It was around before he was president, oddly enough.

What so many fail to understand is that you would be jumping up and down calling President Bush a dictator if he had called in any troops without the State Government of Louisianna requesting he do so.

We are a country of laws. That is not going to change, hopefully.

As for our Bill of Rights and our right to carry guns, well, I support the entire Bill of Rights. I have guns and target shoot with them and I am prepared to defend my home and family with one if need be.

I am less frightened on the streets of any American City than I was on the streets of London, where so many thugs apparently wander around picking people's pockets and worse and British law doesn't allow one to defend oneself.

The article sums up ten days' coverage by the BBC to a T.

Virtually their entire output on Katrina - their TV and radio channels, their massive website, the World Service - has been an overt attempt to bash Bush. Virtually nowhere is there any description of the relative resonsibilities of city, state and federal-level authorities. Where ever have they reported that first-response is the responsibility of the local level, not the federal level ? Where is the BBC coverage of the hundreds of flooded buses ? Where is their coverage of the failure by city and state to apply the NO evacuation plan ? Where is there even any mention of that plan ? Where is there any coverage of the Governor's failure to bring in reinforcements for the Louisiana National Guard ? Where is the BBC coverage of the American Red Cross being prevented from delivering food, water and other supplies to the Superdome and the Convention Centre ?

And most sickeningly - where is the due proportion of coverage that should have been given to the huge generosity of so many ordinary Americans to try to help their fellow-citizens ?

From London, may I apologise to Americans about the totally twisted view that the BBC has been presenting, here and abroad. There is a deep vein of anti-Americanism running in the BBC, not just bile against Bush.

The BBC is the largest newsgathering operation in the world. They hve 4000 staff in their News Division. But on Katrina their performance has been a sickening disgrace.

Awesome.

Middle Class Taig: "When liberals get a conservative down, they start looking at things objectively, giving him the benefit of the doubt, seeing the bigger picture, inviting him to kick back and generally helping him back into office."

You've got to be kidding, or your a visitor from an alternate universe.

In my experience, Liberals dislocate their shoulders by patting themselves on their own backs so hard about how caring and compassionate they are, when they are the most mean-spirited, irrational, unreasoning, bile-spitting, greedy, evil, divorced-from-reality and demagogic people in America.

Senor Carlos,

Glad to know you are thriving in the land of the free, just like
millions of other migrants, including my own countrymen. But,
as always, it's the sick who need the doctor and not those who
are well. And all is not well in New Orleans, or in its Louisiana
hinterland. The people desperately need help.And they need it
without any ideological strings attached.

In fact, Newton Emerson's article (which, of course, has been
the instigator of so much discussion) is really an attempt to
tear away those ideological blinkers which have hamperted
rather than helped the relief effort. In other words, people are
a making political capital from kicking the President (and his
Republican adminstration) or, on the other hand, kicking the
so-called Lib-Left Democratic agenda which may be bitter
about losing the last two big elections.

You shouldn't jump to knee-jerk conclusions about where my
sympathies lie. Remember. the enemy here is the Hurricane
and the destructive power of nature.

If any true American, Republican or Democrat, could wave a
magic wand and make things right, I'm sure they would. As
would the rest of us. But, because they can't, there are bound
to be serious political repercussions. And as the tragedy
unfolds, the political timebombs are legion. Perhaps, that blind
spot is yours, Carlos.

Regarding expectations:
Rattlin' Ray Nagin ordered the feable and disabled to report to the Super Dome for shelter. He also told them to bring their own supply of food and water sufficient to meet their needs for three days. He ordered the same for able-bodied citizens who were to report after the first group was settled in.

Most of these folks were expected to take public transit to the Dome. Most of tese folks were very aware of NO crime rates.

Would anybody in their right mind expect anybody to bring three or more gallons of drinking water and a sack of groceries on a public bus across NO and into the Super Dome in the midst of a crisis with the expectation that the Police might not be paying adequate attention?

Animus said, "I do tire of the `Americans are all stupid` type of comment."

That type of comment is made so frequently because it's easily learned and repeated, a requirement for the great mass of commentators.

John in London wrote: "The article sums up ten days' coverage by the BBC to a T."

It also summarizes pretty much any 10 day period in the New York Times, Washington Post, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN axis.

As to a "dictatorship" in which the minority can't get a bill to the floor, etc., etc.... The only way in which the term "dictatorship" can be applied to the US Congress is in the sense of "dictatorship by the people" - who elected a majority of Republicans this time around. Funnily enough, in times when Democrats have been "holding" the US Congress, minority Republicans have faced the same obstacles to getting their agenda through. Amazing how that works.

You want control of Congress - vote in Democrats.

As for the buck stopping at the President's desk, let's examine how Truman used the phrase:

[I]n an address at the National War College on December 19, 1952 Mr. Truman said, "You know, it's easy for the Monday morning quarterback to say what the coach should have done, after the game is over. But when the decision is up before you -- and on my desk I have a motto which says The Buck Stops Here' -- the decision has to be made."[emphasis mine]

(From http://www.trumanlibrary.org/buckstop.htm.) To be perfectly clear, the buck stops at the President's desk when the decision is up to him. The buck doesn't stop at the President's desk when I run out of milk because I planned poorly, or when riots break out in Philadelphia because of a football game, or when most of the New Orleans police department abdicates its calling and turns to looting.

Here's another factor to remember: the toll of this hurricane is more than lives lost. The lives lost are irreplaceable and rightly defy any effort to be defined by a monetary value, but prevention of more loss of life is a higher priority than recovery of the dead, up to the point when either there are no more survivors to rescue or the dead bodies themselves become a health risk to survivors. But property damage can and will be quantified, and much of it will have to be replaced; what isn't replaced will, if insured, be paid out, and insurance companies will up their premiums dramatically and/or get out of the Gulf altogether if their payouts are too great. Conserving undamaged or lightly damaged property and infrastructure is part of disaster recovery and will help the city, the state, and the nation get back to what will pass for "normal." It won't help the mourners and it won't help the dead, but it'll help those both in and far from the area who will share in the increased cost of risk in future.

Senor Carlos,

Glad to know you are thriving in the land of the free, just like
millions of other migrants, including my own countrymen. But,
as always, it's the sick who need the doctor and not those who
are well. And all is not well in New Orleans, or in its Louisiana
hinterland. The people desperately need help.And they need it
without any ideological strings attached.

In fact, Newton Emerson's article (which, of course, has been
the instigator of so much discussion) is really an attempt to
tear away those ideological blinkers which have hamperted
rather than helped the relief effort. In other words, people are
a making political capital from kicking the President (and his
Republican adminstration) or, on the other hand, kicking the
so-called Lib-Left Democratic agenda which may be bitter
about losing the last two big elections.

You shouldn't jump to knee-jerk conclusions about where my
sympathies lie. Remember. the enemy here is the Hurricane
and the destructive power of nature.

If any true American, Republican or Democrat, could wave a
magic wand and make things right, I'm sure they would. As
would the rest of us. But, because they can't, there are bound
to be serious political repercussions. And as the tragedy
unfolds, the political timebombs are legion. Perhaps, that blind
spot is yours, Carlos.

FEMA is central government, and they have been thoroughly useless.

According to its website, FEMA takes primary responsibility in the event of a natural disaster. They failed. They have also been more useless in areas where poor and/or black people are concentrated.

Yes, New Orleans politics is startlingly corrupt (although no less a source than vokdapundit agrees Nagin was trying, perhaps ineffectively, but trying to do something about it). Yes, (Democrat run) Louisiana is stunningly corrupt and misgoverned, and (Republican run) Mississippi isn't too far behind. But at the end of the day, the Feds took primary responsibility for this sort of thiong after 9-11, and they failed.

If you think that's only the view of hard-left moonbats you need to leave your blogosphere ivory tower. Compare the federal response to this hurricane with the response to the four hurricanes in Florida last year and tell me there isn't at least a serious point for discussion.

AND...to the foreign correspondent (currently under sedation) I say "rightfully so!"

Young Fogey

Yet more ignorance about the division of responsibilities.

FEMA does NOT take control of CITY and STATE authorities. Ask Rudy, ask anyone.

And you clearly do not understand the priniple of "First responders" :

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0197.xml

Please go way and learn US Civics 101.

And, since I am prevented from obtaining a gun permit I plan to move to a State and city which allows me the right to defend myself -susan

You should move to New Orleans. They were practically selling them from Good Humor trucks down there.

Looks like that (to quote Babsy Bush) is working out real well for them. LOL.

Ursus said:
"Louisiana is so corrupt its a punch line. ... The[y] have open primaries which resulted in a run-off between a klansman and a criminal for the republican ticket ... resulting in Blanco being handed the election."

I'm not sure which election you are referring to, but the most recent Republican to run for Governor in Louisiana, whom Gov. Blanco defeated in a relatively close election, is Bobby Jindal, who was born in Louisiana to parents who immigrated from India. He is neither klansman nor criminal, but was elected to the US Congress after losing the election for Governor.

This goes back to Mr. Emerson's original point about criticism. The corruption in Louisiana politics is well known going back decades (remember Huey P. Long), but if you want your criticism to be credible, you need to stick to facts.

Just a quick question (non-rhetorical) to my friends in NI:

Does all this polarized vituperation from the States sound familiar?

My point is that we Yanks do what you do, only on a much larger canvas.

Here's a clarification for Comrade Stalin (and others).
Gerry N mentioned the "Insurrection Act" (law).
From a dictionary:
Insurrection - An act or instance of open revolt against a government.

The US Constitution forbids the Federal Government from superceding (taking over) a State Government's authority over lcoal events EXCEPT in a case of revolt/rebellion against the Federal Government.

Lacking such a revolt/rebellion against the Federal Government, a State Government must officially AGREE to allow the Federal Government to take control withing that State.

The purpose of the Insurrection Act was to prevent Dictatorship by the Federal Government.

Therefore, under US Constitutional Law, the liberal Democrat governor of Louisiana (Kathleen Blanco) is REQUIRED to give her agreement to a Federal takeover of control of events (hurricane-relief efforts) within Louisiana.

No such agreement was given by her. She is now saying she did not know it was required by US Constitutional Law!

If President Bush HAD taken-over control in Louisiana without the Louisiana Governor's agreement, we would all now be hearing Liberal Democrats shouting for Bush's impeachment for his dictatorial violation of US Constitutional Law. And, for once, they would be correct.

So - as usual - Bush is damned (by Democrats) if he does and equally damned if he doesn't.

very nice article. So glad you posted.

It may be a point that the right to keep and bear arms is a key guarantor of manners when the "official police department" is otherwise occupied. Thugs don't much like guns. Guns make a lot of noise. Knives and clubs are more quiet, and the thug's advantage in numbers, size, and youth will be sufficient. Guns help the old, the physically slight, the woman far more than they help the thug.

Now I'm just one of thousands of middle-managers at a huge global consulting company, but even I can get my job done effectively from any point on the globe where I have a mobile phone connection and Internet access. Are you really so naive as to think that the President of the most powerful nation in the history of the world can't do the same? Or do you honestly believe the ridiculous liberal canard that W is on "holiday" whenever he's in Texas? Just lounging at poolside while he sips a pina colada, gets a pedicure, and anxiously waits for CNN to report on the latest neocon-planned tragedy to strike the poor/minorities/women/gays of the world?

Groucho bleated: I'm sure Governor Blanco is quite probably incompetent. But Bush should have gotten off his arse from his 5 week holiday in Texas and actually acted like a Commander in Chief.

"Now I'm just one of thousands of middle-managers at a huge global consulting company, but even I can get my job done effectively from any point on the globe where I have a mobile phone connection and Internet access. Are you really so naive as to think that the President of the most powerful nation in the history of the world can't do the same?

My brother spent most of the 80's as a member of the White House Communications Agency, whose mission is to provide communications for the president and vice president every second of every day, where ever they happen to be, and that means anywhere on the planet. The agency sends teams ahead of the president so that the communications will already be in place as the president steps off Air Force one.

And since Crawford is frequently the destination, I am sure that communication facilities there are permanent until January, 2009.

You are correct that the president is never on holiday.

Young Fogey, you say,"If you think that's only the view of hard-left moonbats you need to leave your blogosphere ivory tower. Compare the federal response to this hurricane with the response to the four hurricanes in Florida last year and tell me there isn't at least a serious point for discussion."

Perhaps this is justification for a preference for Republican state government vs that of Democrap Barking MoonBats.

Observer, thank you Sir for your understanding of how things work vs hindsight raving.

What a great piece! I love the way you used humor to point out the absurdity of the complainers' position.

When did the blogosphere get an ivory tower? And why wasn't I told about it?

JohninLondon

And you clearly do not understand the priniple of "First responders" :

And you, clearly, do not know how to read.

From http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp (linked in my post above).

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.

(emphasis mine)

Now go away and learn why Bush has rendered any American Civics textbook more than a few years old out of date.

ziggy

Perhaps this is justification for a preference for Republican state government vs that of Democrap Barking MoonBats.

That (stripped of the juvenile bit at the end) is a reasonable argument to make. However, there's an equally reasonable argument that FEMA made much more effort to respond to last year's FL hurricanes even before they hit, where LA, MS and AL were given no support before Katrina. Last year was an election year. In swing of swing states, Florida.

You could argue this demonstrates keeping your state ultra-marginal in Presidential elections, therefore needing lots of tender loving pork, whoever is in charge, is a better idea than making it a safe red state (or blue state for that matter).

Observer

Kathleen Blanco is a liberal democrat? Um... in what sense, precisely?

Currently Drunk and under sedation,

That figures!

Have you read The Kyoto agreement. It is SPECIFICALLY but SUBTLY DESIGNED to kneecap the American economy. Even the Demoncrats understood that and said "Hell No!

You obviously are too ignorant to understand English. Your spelling and "attempted satire" is only found among the jackass race.

Oh,and Keeyoto was designed solely to destroy our great land-the citizens of which have a godgiven right to drive their SUV´s until the last drop of gasoleen has been extracted from the earth...

Young Fogey

That para you quoted does not contradict the fact that the LOCAL authorities are the First Responders, tht FEMA is NOT in charge - the Governor is, right now. FEMA's job is to coordinate all the strands of federal BACKUP to local resources. Which is exactly what they did :

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/katrina.htm

Blogs seem to start and end like a good night of drinking.

They're are a lot of hands in a lot of cookie jars. They're all on the run and some are going to end up like street pizza.

I would like to tie all this discussion back to your situation in Northern Ireland. After all the years and all the deaths, you can still take sides and point to the other fellow's mistakes. The logic of that raises the question, if neither of you did anything wrong, where did all those dead bodies come from?

'until the last drop of gasoleen has been extracted from the earth...'

Gasoline isn't extracted from the earth

In re the "fair deal" and "animus" exchange---what exactly would you know about the US and the issue of race? Until about a nanosecond ago, Ireland has been as about as diverse as a bowl of oatmeal. Pull-ease, the glass ceiling??? Do you think a glass ceiling is the reason New Orleans is in the muck it's in? Don't believe everything the latest rapper-turned-politician has to say......

On the Friday before the Hurricane, a Federal Disaster Declaration was made, thus putting the FEDERAL government in charge of relief efforts in the Gulf Coast.

Right, the columnists and pundits - many who couldn't bother to challenge this Administration on its now admittedly phoney reasons for invading Iraq - are now falling over themselves to condemn the Feds and the Bush Administration on this one. I have no defense for the media in the U.S, as they're corporate controlled and thus profit driven, so being vigilant within our democratic experiment is not their primary concern.

A few more points per the Northern Irishman's column: sure, Bill Clinton is to blame, too. And every member of Congress who takes a pork project to his or her district when other projects should take higher priority.

Which leads to the fact that, contrary to the columnists opinion, every citizen in this country potentially had an impact on what happened on the Gulf Coast. Were were vigilant against special interests who developed marshlands and wetlands for luxury housing and energy company shipping canals and pipelines? Were we and are we vigilant about a government making appointments based on college roommates and friendships and not on qualifications.

Are we vigilant about allowing people into essential roles in our government who would like to "drown (government) in a bathtub"?

Lastly, in all of this, the buck stops with the President of the United States.

This time last year, people criticized the feds for responding to the hurricanes in Florida too quickly, saying it was just an election-year ploy.

This year, they criticize the feds for responding too slowly, when the response was TWICE AS FAST to a region the size of Great Britain that was IMMEASURABLY more devastated.

Now darling KEK, the emerald isle is no longer mucked up. Too much MSM?

Observer said:

"If President Bush HAD taken-over control in Louisiana without the Louisiana Governor's agreement, we would all now be hearing Liberal Democrats shouting for Bush's impeachment for his dictatorial violation of US Constitutional Law. And, for once, they would be correct."



Actually, the more important truth here is that if President Bush had taken-over control in Louisiana without the Louisiana Governor's agreement, Conservatives and Libertarians would be shouting for his impeachment even more than the Democrats.

As an American of Irish descent (in part at least, as well as perhaps 3 or 4 other nationalities) I want you to know Mr. Fealty that I reall appreciate your post and your sense of humor.

fair_deal, open your eyes next time you come to the USA. Or at least read the papers. Far from being blind to them, Americans are *obsessed* with racial issues. Why do you think there's even a discussion of race in connection with Katrina? It's a factor in literally everthing that happens in this country. Even if you don't hear ordinary people (i.e., non-politicians) discussing it all the time, it's always in the back of people's minds. We've lived with it since the founding.

Tom Moore

The Federal Emergency Declaryion did NOT put the Feds in charge. What is did was authorise the federal level to provide assistance to the LOCAL FIRST RESPONDERS.

For goodness sakes you people - learn some US law. The whole of the US system is based on preserving a balance between states' rights and federal powers.

And tht quote by Truman bout the buck stopping with him -- you will find that he said if it is a FED problem the buck stops with him. Not ANY and EVERY problem. If a Governor acts limp or crazy the President still has no power to intervene and take control.

What thousands of columnists must know is the Federal government has no police power over the States, and Lousiana Governor Blanco REFUSED to give up the sovereign power of the State. The States are sovereign, the Federal government cannot "order" an evacuation without invoking the Alien & Sedition Acts, which has only been done once since the U.S. Civil War. Further, it is ILLEGAL for federal troops to be used to maintain order and use force EVEN IF THE ALIEN AND SEDITION ACTS ARE INVOKED, federal troops can be used only for logistics and support, NOT police work.

Thousands of columnists seem to be ignorant of the basics of federalism. The President has NO POLICE power anywhere in the US, except military bases and federal prisons.

Bush-led (or rather neo-con-led) America has, in my view, become more violent and more tolerant of violence, more insidiously racist and more tolerant of racism, and more paranoid about foreigners than almost any other nation on earth.

Care to back that up with a single fact?

Violent crime in America is down since Bush assumed the Presidency.

And exactly how has the federal government caused people to be more racist? Go ahead, give me some examples.

And America more paranoid about foreigners than almost any other nation on earth!?! What the hell have you been smoking man? Try LESS paranoid about foreigners than almost any other nation on earth. Go ahead, throw some countries out there and we'll do a comparison.

This is the best written, funniest, and most bitingly accurate piece I have yet to read since this hurricane struck.

Bravo!!

I love watching liberals meltdown. In our high speed, high tech world it is becoming increasingly difficult to propigate lies. The blogosphere in the US has undone many recent attempts by the left to perpetuate lies.... Americans are increasingly getting their information from non-MSM sources. The truth about the response efforts will all come out, sooner rather than later, and all we'll be hearing is the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the moveon.org's of the left. They'll get even more vitriolic and it won't be pretty. The comrade stalins and middle-class taigs will still hate America.

Katrina demonstrates perfectly clearly how corruption, government social program ineffectiveness and an entitlement mentality endanger our society. The poor black lower-classes suffered most heavily. I recall hearing one news commentator saying how if the hurricane had happened just one week later many of those who died could have evacuated...because their government entitlement check would have been there then for the month and the 20$ they needed to evacuate would have been in their wallets. Could there be any better example of the danger and destructiveness of government dependency and the welfare nanny state?

As for those who like to spout off about racism being so horrible here in the United States...there are no greater respecters of individual effort and perseverance, regardless of color than Americans. Nowhere do blacks and hispanics have a higher standard of living...even those at the so called poverty level (plenty of food,color TV's, air conditioning, cars, indoor plumbing). The problem is that those impoverished minorities are not forced to value education and self discipline. Life at the poverty level here in the US is actually pretty good...even if you do have to live from month to monthly check from the government. Course the price of that dependency is always high...in this tragic case it is the cost of many lives.

I'd like to submit the radical proposal that Nagin, Blanco and the Louisiana agencies could be morally and perhaps criminally negligent without that fact saying anything about the president's guilt or innocence.

WOW!!!! this astounds me.

This Disaster was federalized BEFORE landfall. The Louisiana government had no power over any assets from beyond its states borders from that point on. Even if they had, their tax base is insufficient for a large scale disaster response, That is why we have the DHS and FEMA, because most states with major metro area are in this position.

Loisianas shipping is VITAL to 2/3 of america, the mississppi begins in northern minnesota and continues on to the gulf of mexico, its shipping line has earned untold billions of dollars more for the rest of the US than it has for louisiana proper. It is an IMPORTANT national asset, and money generator and was not protected as such.

The Louisiana governenment does not control the president of the US and our considerable tax payer funded assets anymore than you do. If you beleive that LA officials were flexing some imaginary muscles and not allowing our countries leader to help, you are STUPID. and are going to lose this blame game. Which seems to be oh so much stronger coming from you bushies than it is from the dems.

Why have they remoived Brown from his leadership role within FEMA if there was no problem there?

"Brownies doin' a great job!" -W

Katie,

ALL of your points have already been addressed and refuted IN THIS THREAD...

Except the one regarding Michael Brown, so here you go:

Because Michael Brown is utterly incompetent. Bush's statement was stupid ("loyalty to a fault" is probably Bush's biggest fault). Go look for that quote about how this was no big deal (made at the time when it looked like Katrina might hit NO head on as a Category 5). If liberals really wanted something that would stick with conservatives, they would PICK the things that matter (like how Brown got his job basically through cronyism), and drop all the other BS.

I have to stop going to Scotland. I was walking through Skara Brae on 9/11/2001. Katrina arrives on the third day of the trip this time while I was enroute to Cullen. Once again I had to sit through days of America/Bush bashing from the BBC.

JohninLondon has the flick on the BBC. Fools I can barely tolerate. Pompous, arrogant, and stunningly ignorant fools get no respect. Still, I can understand how people whose only source of information is pompous, arrogant, and stunningly ignorant BBC/Euro Journalistes spout opinions that are pompous, arrogant, and stunningly ignorant.

For those in the latter category, like MCT, Rog77, and bro, buy a clue from several of the excellent posts here on how the Federal, state, and local governments are supposed to interact. I'm just back now and starting to piece events together. It appears that NO and LA governments screwed the pooch big time and the Feds were a bit slow to take up the slack caused by the non-performance of the first responders.

As a former Federale who had the watch for a tiny piece of Hurricane Andrew and the St. Louis flood action, I can tell you it takes 3-5 days to get any meaningful information on which to make decisions.

Oh, Duffy, I hadn't forgotten about you when I was singling out the pompous, arrogant, and stunningly ignorant. Check in with me after the first week in November, 2006 and we'll see how good a political forecaster you are. Do you you like your crow medium or well done?

Good article. It declares truth with humor.

The topic of Bush bashing changes as often as the weather. The democrats have refused to be part of a congressional investigation, not because they are in a minority, but because they now know how foolish they will look.

Duffy,

If someone is principled, the slime machine from either side wouldn't be ABLE to "swiftboat" them, because "swiftboating" is a tactic that involves exposing their slimy, unprincipled, not-meant-for-TV real selves. Hence the effectiveness of such on Kerry.

If these guys really are principled, they thus are immune from being "swiftboated". I, for one, prefer all "swiftboatable" candidates in all parties be "swiftboated", so that only the principled remain. One of the problems of our system is that too many policians (on both sides) are able to sweep their displays of stupidity, incompetence, or just plain greed under the rug - or have an opponet who makes them look good.

After seeing the Red Cross and Salvation Army confirm they were lined up and ready with food and water immediately, thousands of desperate columnists are asking themselves if they should have spared a couple of reporters to run up the road a couple of hours and ask a couple of questions. A couple of them say yes.

We're all wrong. Nothing to do with George Bush or New Orleans officialdom.

Apparently, it's all the fault of the welfare state:

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46238

s

Owl,

After seeing the Red Cross and Salvation Army confirm ...

What is your point?

DON'T PRETEND YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE GULF COAST, AMERICA OR GEORGE W. BUSH. I CAN'T STAND ARROGANT COMMENTARY ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE SPEAKING OUT OF IGNORANCE! THE GOVT (AT ANY LEVEL) WAS NEVER MEANT TO REPLACE "GOD".

Brenda,

Thank you for explaining in which direction the finger of blame should really point, and in ALL CAPS, too.

My point goes to the media portraying suffering intensified with lack or food and water, but failing to ask who was stopping it from coming in.

All those angry victims in Austin do not have a clue. Why should they? Our media refuses to tell them.

A most interesting comment about the broken levee's being the only one recently upgraded with Federal funds. I wonder how we can confirm that. If true, could it mean that corrupt politicians skimmed money and got a shoddy product?

The author's sarcasm is quite effective. It sheds light on the obvious...the problem lies not with the White House, but with the infamous crooks in the Democratic Party in Lousiana. The media's attempt to shift blame away from the New Orleans Mayor and the Louisana Governor is a crime against the people of Lousiana and all the U.S.

Mr. Emerson -- I loved your column. Some of the comments, not so much.

I originally was going to post a much larger response to some of the stuff I've seen posted, but I changed my mind. The Bush haters won't change their minds and the Bush lovers won't change theirs, so why bother?

What we need is a return to the old Civil Defense System that got us through natural disasters before President Carter so fit to do away with it. Local first responders in charge of local events, with the Federal Government assisting and coordinating. NOT professional bureaucrats and politcal appointees!!!

Check out http://www.jerrypournelle.com for more on that theme.

Lee

(Who can't seem to get his paragraphs to work)

The BBC's woeful reporting on Katrina, which it has used as the occasion for a Bush-bashing fest, is indicted in blistering detail in this article by Val MacQueen :

http://www.techcentralstation.com/090905A.html

This is a great opinion piece, the best I've read in a while. The bottom line is the Democrats now use death and destruction in order to score political points..they've been doing it for a long time, now its on a grand scale and its disgusting.

The BBC has used Katrin for a 24/7 Bush-bashing fest.

Its woefully ignorant and stupid coverage is dissected in this article by Val MacQueen :

http://www.techcentralstation.com/090905A.html

Dave Fales,

There have been a couple of articles in American
MSM about where some of the money had gone.

This one is from WaPo: Money Flowed to Questionable Projects.

One graph:

"But overall, the Bush administration's funding requests for the key New Orleans flood-control projects for the past five years were slightly higher than the Clinton administration's for its past five years. Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, the chief of the Corps, has said that in any event, more money would not have prevented the drowning of the city, since its levees were designed to protect against a Category 3 storm, and the levees that failed were already completed projects. Strock has also said that the marsh-restoration project would not have done much to diminish Katrina's storm surge, which passed east of the coastal wetlands."

Here, Here... We in the South applaud you. Thanks for making sense of it all.

Wow, Newton, you have become a right-wing hero overnight! Even Powerline, the outfit that helped to expose Dan Rather and the CBS attempt to smear President Bush, have a link to your piece. I wonder what all your nice liberal friends are going to think of you now?

It is real interesting, and I have to laugh to see a bunch of foreigners who have no clue except the poisonous drivel from the BBC and the like express "opinions" about the aftermath of Katrina. Would you like a comparably ignorant comment or two about the racist qua religious conflict in Northern Ireland, or how your drunkenness contributes to it? I bet not.
As for the lefty Americans who rant on and on with your irrational hatred of GWB, I can only say STFU! Your ignorance of the Constitution is as total as the foreigners here, but your crime is worse, since they are not citizens, and you are. You have no excuse, or are guilty of deliberately distorting or lying about the situation. If you truly believe that there are no restrictions on the FEDERAL government intervening in state and local affairs, except in cases of insurrections, you are truly lost. Leave, you don't belong here, and probably hate this country too much to be of any value, anyway.

In accordance with my new-found status as a right wing ideologue, I declare that none of this praise means shit if it ain't gonna make me some money.

Polish Immigrant et al - Many thanks for the pointer. I had seen the WAPO discussion via Lucianne.com, but the shifting of funds still does not answer my conjecture. It has been claimed the levees were built to Cat 3 standards. But were they really? Especially this most recent upgrade/improvement? I'm inclined to believe the Corps of Engineers is good/unbiased enough to know if they were built to standard...but I could be wrong. I'm beginning to see the makings of a great Clive Cussler book...even if my conjecture is completely invalid.

I would urge those who can't believe the situation in New Orleans to consider some non-political facts as well:

Katrina was one of the biggest and most destructive hurricanes on record. I'm not sure how much experience Europe has with hurricanes, though I know some North Sea storms can get pretty awful. People in China, Taiwan, Japan, Bangladesh, all know what kind of force these things have.

Second, New Orleans, since the time the first flood control effort went up, has had this coming. Not in the moral sense, but in the physical sense. No other major US city faces the kind of geographical situation that NO does, being that it's in a huge bowl between Lake Ponchartrain, the Mississippi River and the Gulf of Mexico.

The worst case scenario, in which the eye went directly over the city and the levees were topped, would have killed people relatively instantly as 20 feet of water sloshed in from the Gulf, and then sloshed back in from Ponchartrain as the wind changed direction. If that had happened, none of this conversation would be going on. All resources would have been devoted to recovery, rather than rescue and evacuation.

This was the next-to-worst situation, in which limited resources and poor local planning ensured that attention had to be paid to people on roofs, people at the Superdome, people at the convention center, etc. All that with a single passable road into the city from the west.

Everything that could go wrong did. The city and state of NO basically crossed its fingers and hoped the hurricane would veer off. It did. And disaster still hit the city.

A little respect, please, for Mother Nature.

Newton - If that is truly you...what is your source for your claim that the broken levee was the most recently upgraded? BTW - great column!

Er, an feidir leanacht ar aghaidh ar an suiomh i nGaeilge amhain (no Ulster Scots b´fheidir) go dti go n-eirionn na daoine seo dudoite is go n-imionn siad ar ais chuig a gcuid uaigheanna. Cuireann siad samhnas orm. Ok, sin an fear, ni an liathroid ach is cuma liom.

Young Fogey: I heartily agree that US DHS should have planned and prepared for the onslaught of future readers of their site who may not bring with them an accurate or full understanding of distribution of Federal/State/Local responsibility and limits of authority.

This irresponsible DHS statement> is the direct and immediate cause of the tens of thousands of hours expended by our politicians, the media, and most particularly bloggers on what amounts to a terrible misunderstanding. These precious hours are lost and they cannot be regained.

The presence of this paragraph, widely cited as proof the Bush Administration already has authority to take over the State of Louisiana, is a serious distraction in our efforts to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina. I say: “Please, Mr. Bush. Tear Down This Graph! “

“The Paragraph” demonstrates a lack of preparedness by DHS and President Bush for the scenario we face today a disaster of unprecedented magnitude strikes a much beloved city and there are multiple and simultaneous failures including: devastation of emergency communications and coordination by First Responders; failure of local government to execute evacuation plans; inexplicable resistence of state officials to exercise their authority to call out the National Guard; and inexplicable insistance of state officials (while insisting on retaining authority to exercise their authority to refuse Relief agencies from reaching those in need.

We must not remain blind to the fact that most readers of this paragraph do not understand US Civics. And we must not assume that even those with a good working knowledge of Distribution of Power will be aware or consider that the creation of the Department of Homeland Security did not include granting new Federal authority to supercede State Sovereignty. I do not pretend to know why this is not obvious since it would require our having amended our Constitution, the Insurrection Act and a host of other laws and regulations, and one would think even the least politically interested citizen might have accidentally heard if that was proposed.

We must force Mr. Chertoff to change “The Graph” now! Until this happens, please feel free to substitute my:

PROPOSED DRAFT – NOT OFFICIAL: In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for for activating and directing Federal departments and resources upon request from and authority granted by the Governor of the State ensuring that Federal emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response operating under the authority and command of the State Governor to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.

My source on the 17th Street Canal Levee was this article in the New York Times:

September 1, 2005

Intricate Flood Protection Long a Focus of Dispute

By ANDREW C. REVKIN and CHRISTOPHER DREW

The 17th Street levee that gave way and led to the flooding of New Orleans was part of an intricate, aging system of barriers and pumps that was so chronically underfinanced that senior regional officials of the Army Corps of Engineers complained about it publicly for years.

Often leading the chorus was Alfred C. Naomi, a senior project manager for the corps and a 30-year veteran of efforts to waterproof a city built on slowly sinking mud, surrounded by water and periodically a target of great storms.

Mr. Naomi grew particularly frustrated this year as the Gulf Coast braced for what forecasters said would be an intense hurricane season and a nearly simultaneous $71 million cut was announced in the New Orleans district budget to guard against such storms.

He called the cut drastic in an article in New Orleans CityBusiness.

In an interview last night, Mr. Naomi said the cuts had made it impossible to complete contracts for vital upgrades that were part of the long-term plan to renovate the system.

This week, amid news of the widening breach in the 17th Street Canal, he realized that the decadeslong string of near misses had ended.

"A breach under these conditions was ultimately not surprising," he said last night. "I had hoped that we had overdesigned it to a point that it would not fail. But you can overdesign only so much, and then a failure has to come."

No one expected that weak spot to be on a canal that, if anything, had received more attention and shoring up than many other spots in the region. It did not have broad berms, but it did have strong concrete walls.

Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, said that was particularly surprising because the break was "along a section that was just upgraded."

"It did not have an earthen levee," Dr. Penland said. "It had a vertical concrete wall several feel thick."

Now the corps is scrambling. After failing to close a 300-foot break in the canal through which most of the floodwater entered the city, federal engineers decided last night to take the battle with Lake Pontchartrain to the lakefront.

Starting today, they will prepare to drive corrugated vertical steel plates, called sheet pile, into the mud near where the narrow canal meets the lake, sealing it off so that the big breach farther in can be more methodically attacked, Mr. Naomi said.

The decision was made after a day of fruitless efforts to figure how to drop concrete highway barriers or huge sandbags into the torrent. For the most part, the water between the lake and the filled bowl of the city leveled off as of last night, officials said.

Weaknesses in the levee system were foreshadowed in a report in May on the hurricane protection plan for the region and the budget gap.

The district headquarters said, "The current funding shortfalls in fiscal year 2005 and fiscal year 2006 will prevent the Corps from addressing these pressing needs."

They also meant that there was far too little money to study thoroughly an upgrade of the protections from the existing standard, enough to hold back a hurricane at Category 3 on the five-step intensity scale, to a level to withstand floods and winds from a Category 5 storm.

Hurricane Katrina was on the high end of Category 4 and, despite the extreme flooding, is still seen by many hurricane experts as a near miss for New Orleans.

Since 2001, the Louisiana Congressional delegation had pushed for far more money for storm protection than the Bush administration has accepted. Now, Mr. Naomi said, all the quibbling over the storm budget, or even over full Category 5 protection, which would cost several billion dollars, seemed tragically absurd.

"It would take $2.5 billion to build a Category 5 protection system, and we're talking about tens of billions in losses, all that lost productivity, and so many lost lives and injuries and personal trauma you'll never get over," Mr. Naomi said. "People will be scarred for life by this event."

He said there were still no clear hints why the main breach in the flood barriers occurred along the 17th Street Canal, normally a conduit for vast streams of water pumped out of the perpetually waterlogged city each day and which did not take the main force of the waves roiling the lake. He said that a low spot marked on survey charts of the levees near the spot that ruptured was unrelated and that the depression was where a new bridge crossed the narrow canal near the lakefront.

Some experts studying flood prevention with the corps and other agencies speculated that any dip in the retaining levee or walls there might have allowed water to slop over and start the collapse.

Mr. Naomi said that as the power of the hurricane grew clear over the weekend, he and others who had worked to make the system as strong as it could be, given the design limits, could only hope that it would hold.

But, he said, he knew that the chances were high that the rising waters and crashing waves would find a fatal weak spot in the 350 miles of levees and walls.

As often occurs after a storm, Lake Pontchartrain is sloshing back and forth, sending pulses of water into the city and potentially complicating repairs, Dr. Penland said.

"It's like you have a bowl of water and you shake it, and it sloshes back and forth," he said, describing a phenomenon that geologists call a seiche (pronounced sesh). "Mississippi Sound and Pontchartrain are real prone to seiches when big storms come through. We are seeing the slosh. Water is being flushed through the gaps in the levees."

He said scientists at the United States Geological Survey estimated that the sloshing would gradually diminish in a few days.

Until then, the city will be subject not just to normal variation in the lake, where water levels change about a foot between high and low tide, but also to the variations of the seiche. "You have not just the one-foot tide, you probably have three to four feet of water," Dr. Penland said. "Once we get to an ordinary tidal regime, when it plays out, that will be our opportunity to close those breaks in the levees and start pumping."

Andrew C. Revkin reported from New York for this article and Christopher Drew from Baton Rouge, La. Cornelia Dean contributed reporting from New York.

Newton - Many thanks for a prompt and "on target" reply. Now I have to chew on what the Times article reports. First though - is it possible the Corp engineers analysis of the strength of the concrete barrier was wrong. I really think this is one of the big stories that will develop after the human impact factor settles.

It seems staggering, but are these men saying that the old
earthen levees were able to withstand the sloshing effect of the
hurricane waters from Lake Ponchartrain much better than the
new rigid concrete barriers ( which were several feet thick)?

Ha Ha!

I bow to you sir, that was a masterful article.

i love you mick

great column

Having grown up on the Texas coast(Houston) and have lived in N.O. I have first hand experience with hurricanes. The first one I remember was Carla around 1963. It is sadly amusing to hear the certainty of opinion of Europeans who have little experience with hurricanes or our form of republic. To be so certain of things with no real knowledge of the facts is an reflection of the pompous arrogance that many Americans feel forms European opinion its also a major reason why we mostly ignore you. You have made yourself irrelevant by the shallowness of your thinking.

The massive failures were on the local and state level with much smaller screw ups by the feds. In any disaster fuck ups are unavoidable...fog of war if you will. The response from the Democratic Mayor and Govenor border on the criminal. I do agree Bush should have fired Brown sooner.

I wont go into the local, state, federal order of response as it has been covered here very well. Anyone who does not understand it at this point will never allow themselves to understand it. It conflicts with their predetermined ideas.

Another couple of points. Kyoto was rejected by CONGRESS under Clinton by unamimous vote. Repeat after me, "Bush cant change that" nor should he. It is a stupid and unworkable treaty.

About the crime. I lived in Dublin for 2 years..other than the weather I had a great time. However I saw more crime in the 2 years in Dublin than in 40 years in Texas. I leave my cars unlocked at night, leave packages on the front seat of the car while shopping and only lock my house if I'll be gone for the day. Can people in London, Dublin, Belfast, etc.. say the same?

Having lived in N.O. I feel my opinion has a little more weight than someone who hasnt. N.O. is a SHITHOLE..(other than the Quarter lots of fun but still be careful) the "poor" do nothing to better themselves. It has been that way for a long time and like an alcoholic only they can change themselves.

N.O. was an disaster waiting to happen and has been for a hundred years.
.
To all the Europeans who expressed thoughtful and well reasoned ideas...thank you it gives me some hope for Europe.
.
One other thing...Its getting a little tiresome to hear how Americans are fat, stupid, ignorant, redneck, racist etc... If you look objectivly at what America has accomplished in the last 50 years in the areas of medicine, science, space, bio-engineering...etc. What does it make the Europeans?

GC

As a fellow american I take great offense to most of your post. but especially to this part

"One other thing...Its getting a little tiresome to hear how Americans are fat, stupid, ignorant, redneck, racist etc... If you look objectivly at what America has accomplished in the last 50 years in the areas of medicine, science, space, bio-engineering...etc. What does it make the Europeans?"

It makes Europeans thinner, healthier, just as smart as smart americans, a category which cannot claim you as a member, It makes Europe far ahead of our sorry asses in the categorty of cellular medicine, the fastest growing and Highest tech medical branch today, and makes the Irish in particular dwarf us in the pharmaceutical industry. It makes them smart enough to take a close enough look at bioengineering to determine whether it does harm or good before flying head first into what could be a recipe for future disaster. It makes them humane enough to have a bit of social safety net for thier countrymen before flying all over the universe.

There are whole regions of your crime free utopian state that don't even have electricity, El Paso makes New Orleans look like the hamptons and texas leads the nation in teen pregnancy and lags behind the nation in literacy.

but one thang is true darlin' everything is bigger in Texas, even the fools!

America has become more tolerant of violence?

Let me get this straight. America has become more tolerant of violence? Than who? Than the Europeans who watch while filmmakers are murdered in their midst, because of what they dared say about Islam? More tolerant of violence than the European who are watching a wave of female genital mutilations and forced marraiges take place in their own public housing projects? More tolerant than the Europeans who watched the wholesale slaughter of ethnic muslims in the former republic of Yugoslavia? More tolerant than the lowlife French, who published a picture of George Bush, in a cowboy suit, shooting at Arabs, BEFORE THE U.S. EVEN INVADED AFGHANISTAN?

Sometims I wonder if anything can really be done either for or about you euros. Really. As an American, I will say that the U.S. is a country with its own failings, but you euros actually think you have some special grasp of world politics that places you above everyone else. You don't even have the courage to face ethnic cleansing in your own back yard. From what I have seen on this blog, I am at least thankful that there are still s few truly independent thinkers left on that side of the Atlantic.

Katie is a great example of the moonbat and I've offended her. Awwwww. Too fucking bad.

"It makes Europeans thinner, healthier, just as smart as smart americans, a category which cannot claim you as a memberIt makes Europeans thinner, healthier, just as smart as smart americans, a category which cannot claim you as a member"

Katie...Darlin...I lived over there...have you? I still make frequent trips to Europe as well as Asia for business. Do you even have a passport? Get a clue sparky, there are fat, stupid people EVERYWHERE and I dont need to be lectured by some shallow LLL to know it. My point is that we are all in some way provincial. Neither one of us is necessarily better just different. Once again liberals show who their intolerance to opposing thought and just like a liberal she ends with a personel attack.

"It makes them smart enough to take a close enough look at bioengineering to determine whether it does harm or good before flying head first into what could be a recipe for future disaster."

I see... they are way ahead of us but dont use it cause the more careful. How superior of them. You dont have a clue.

"It makes them humane enough to have a bit of social safety net for thier countrymen before flying all over the universe."

Ever pay 48% income tax ? Ever wait 3 weeks to see a doctor ? I've watched people in Ireland live on the dole their whole lives just because it doesnt make sense to change. Sorry but I dont want to live in your socialist paradise. By the by when have we flown "all over the universe". Did I miss something?

"There are whole regions of your crime free utopian state that don't even have electricity"

Thats called the desert honey. No houses...no need for electricity.

"El Paso makes New Orleans look like the hamptons"

Agreed, El Paso is also a shithole...on the mexican side. Ever spent time there ??? I didnt think so.

"texas leads the nation in teen pregnancy and lags behind the nation in literacy."

I dont know about the pregnancy but yew kan tel Im kompletly ignerant just buy redding my riting. LOL

One thing I'm fairly certain after reading Katie's pointless attack. I experienced/forgotten more than her closed mind will ever know.

Katie, you made no attempt to address in any substantial way the points/opinions I made. If you dislike America/Americans so much why are you here? Really, I'm serious. Move abroad, widen your narrow mind. You assumed I was insulting Euros when I was merely pointing out that we are all more alike than not. None of us are "all" stupid, fat,...etc. You are the intolerant one...not I.

By the way...you lost in 00, in 04, will lose in 06, will lose in 08 and still probably wont get it.

One last thought for Katie. Better to be thought a fool than open ones mouth and verify it as you have done.

Katie,

You sound like a totally sick liberal Clintonista! Too bad! Go take your medication.
You will feel better.

Hello to our friends over the pond! Great article! The politicization of this storm is sickening. Gov't screwed up, mostly at the local/state level, else why don't we see such damage to places like Mississippi, Alabama, Florida and the Carolinas when these big storms hit? Oh wait, those places DO get hit just as hard, if not harder. But with New Orleans you've got an entire city _below_ sea level, in a state that's rampant with corrupt and inept government. It appalls me that _that_ is not the story we're hearing about. We're hearing instead about how it's all the fault of some bureaucrats sitting 1000 miles away in D.C. If fingers get pointed, the city of NO has itself to blame first and foremost for the poor planning and post-storm response, especially since this scenario has been forecast for years.

As a service to Europeans who do not understand how the U.S. government and States work, I'll try to explain it in EU terms.

A natural disaster of major proportions is brewing in a major French city. The head of the EU suggests to the president of France that the city be evacuated. The French president ignores the suggestion and the EU can not enforce it. Eventually, evacuations begin, but it's a little too late for many people, especially the poor, elderly, and sick.

Disaster strikes, and it's worse than the French expected. The French president doesn't officially declare a state of emergency and doesn't formally request help from the EU.

Anarchy breaks out in the French city. The EU would like to send in troops to restore order (perhaps the Germans, they know the way), but can't do so without permission from the French president.

Days go by, people are dying. The French president gets on the news and whines about how the EU screwed up and didn't help.

That basically sums it up in a nutshell. Each State in the U.S. is like a country in the EU. Not quite as much autonomy, but still very independent. The Federal government is specifically forbidden from getting involved in local affairs without permission or under very specific conditions such as insurrection.

Newton, that was delightful! Thanks so much for the great read.

An excellent commentary, Newton :). It really says what needs to be said.

Concerning your comment: "Some experts studying flood prevention with the corps and other agencies speculated that any dip in the retaining levee or walls there might have allowed water to slop over and start the collapse."

That's fascinating. I've also heard speculation that the levee on the Ponchatrain side may have been struck by a large barge that's been drifting in the area of the breech. If this turns out to be true, then probably NO ONE is "responsible" for this breech, as it would have been a complete accident that occurred after the storm was over, and had nothing to do with the "Cat3/Cat5" strength of the levee. I don't have a link for this; I heard it on the radio on an ABC channel. Investigations continue.

As for some of the other comments here:

re: Katie: "It makes Europeans thinner, healthier, just as smart as smart americans, a category which cannot claim you as a member,"

Just for the record, last April the Center for Disease Control issued an "Ooops!" statement... it seems that for the last few years, an error in the way they were calculating obesity stats caused them to overestimate obesity in the US 17 times higher than it should have been. So you can divide the last few years' stats by 17 and get something closer to the truth.

In other words, Americans are no "fatter" than any other nation.

The MSM has, of course, been pointedly ignoring the CDC's correction... the obesity thing is too good a story to drop. Personally, I had been wondering about that, since I looked around and the people (in physical attributes) looked little different than they did in 1955... some old, some young, some fat, some thin... but all in a perfectly reasonable ratio.

and...: "This Disaster was federalized BEFORE landfall. The Louisiana government had no power over any assets from beyond its states borders from that point on."

Uh... are you SURE you're an American??? Or are you putting us on? If you are, I suspect you slept through your civics classes!

Let me give you the short SHORT version of US civics: Think of the US as 50 separate countries (state=country) bound together by an alliance defined in the Constitution. Think of it that way, and you will be much closer to the truth.

The President... no matter who he is or what the situation is... has ZERO authority to move in on a State without permission from the State.

The fact that the President declared an emergency before the hurricane hit is irrelevant because the GOVERNOR refused the assistance! SHE was the one responsible for PERMITTING the feds to take action, and she screwed the pooch.

The BBC is coming under a lot of criticism for Bush-bashing over Katrina. But it STILL does not recognise tht FEMA's job is to SUPPORT, not to CONTROL the efforts at state and city level.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ifs/hi/newsid_4220000/newsid_4226200/4226248.stm

This article suggests that it was judged impossible to take control out of the hands of the Louisiana Governor. The ineptitude of the NO evacuation operation was already past tense.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/09/national/nationalspecial/09military.html

The mega-liberal brainwashed commentators in this forum NEED TO READ THE STATE EMERGENCY WEBSITE, which says that the Mayor and Governor are responsible for EVACUATION procedures.

It is NOT fema's responsibility to have evacuation procedures for all 100+ United States Cities that have over 1,000,000 people.

I can't believe some liberals think that Bush, or some team at FEMA are sitting there in their offices coming up with evacuation plans.. this is solely the responsibility of the LOCAL officials to have a way to get people out.

Liberals.. learn your civics and hierarchies.

Well put, Michael.

It’s kind of like the blond you dropped dead at the side of the road while jogging. The batteries in her walkman were also dead. When they checked to see what she had been listening to, it repeated: Breathe in, breathe out. Breathe in, breathe out. … George Bush bears a huge responsibility for the NO crisis. His biggest mistake was not constantly reminding the mayor of NO and the governor of LA to: Stick to the plan, stick to the plan…

The more I read the cack from these right-wing neanderthals the more I agree with middle-class taig´s earlier comments, and disagree with Emerson´s take on this. Anything, short of violence, is allowed, to disgrace Bush and his fellow criminals, and their supporters. How anyone can support him is a mystery to me but then Hitler got lots of support too so apparently some people will swallow anything, no matter how vile.
Why don´t yeez just feck off and go look for those WMD you and President Chimpface were banging on about a couple of years ago, you know, the ones you invaded Iraq for?

So, who rattled your cage, ihatebush? Are you beginning to realize that the juvenile liberal smear campaign against Bush has backfired?

The latest AP/Ipsos Poll tells us who gets "a lot" or "a good amount" of the blame for Katrina-related problems:

State governments: 74%

Local governments: 67%

U.S. government: 63%

President Bush: 55%

Local residents: 48%

The Washington Times also has a very enlightening article for your perusal.

Have a nice day!

Anything, short of violence, is allowed, to disgrace Bush and his fellow criminals, and their supporters.

Lovely sentiments.

Unable to engage the arguments on the merits, you stamp your little feet and decide unethical behavior is called for. Else how will you get your way? "All those conservatives just won't listen to me? How dare they?"

They must be....(wait for it)....NAZI's!

You are a credit to the left sir (or madam).

GH:

"Another couple of points. Kyoto was rejected by CONGRESS under Clinton by unamimous vote. Repeat after me, "Bush cant change that" nor should he. It is a stupid and unworkable treaty."

It's strange that only the USA thinks that the treaty is stupid and unworkable, whereas most other industrialized nations have adopted it.

"About the crime. I lived in Dublin for 2 years..other than the weather I had a great time. However I saw more crime in the 2 years in Dublin than in 40 years in Texas. I leave my cars unlocked at night, leave packages on the front seat of the car while shopping and only lock my house if I'll be gone for the day. Can people in London, Dublin, Belfast, etc.. say the same? "

Or can people on LA or Houston say the same ? I don't think so.

Is anyone prepared to address YF's point, about the involvement of the Federal government in the hurricanes in Florida last year ?

Or can people on LA or Houston say the same ?

Sure they can. These are big cities. If you stay away from where the idiots are, they are quite safe. There are large parts of both cities where kids ride their bikes to school, old folks take walks at night and the locking of doors is more a habit than a requirement.

European friends that come to live in the US are always surprised at just how safe MOST of the US is compared to Europe.

Possibly you only know us from our TV. You do know that Hollywood doesn't really like the US don't you?

"European friends that come to live in the US are always surprised at just how safe MOST of the US is compared to Europe."

Europe is just like the USA in the respect you described. Stay away from the rough spots, and you'll be perfectly fine. I visited New York City back in July (great place). I was able to tell the dangerous neighbourhoods right away, even though it was my first time there.

"Possibly you only know us from our TV."

No, I've visited the USA several times. I assume you've visited Europe several times to sample for yourself our stupendous crime levels.

"You do know that Hollywood doesn't really like the US don't you?"

I'm aware that this is the position of the chomping-at-the-bit right wing blogosphere. Anyone who opposes you must be anti-American. I think you guys need to get back to basics, and distinguish between the people who want to destroy the country and the people who merely exercise their democratic right to disagree with the government.

Ihatebush says: "The more I read the cack from these right-wing neanderthals"

Are liberals capable of having a discussion without emotional hysteria ? Can you argue the merits of your position not using over the top hyperbole ?

"How anyone can support him is a mystery to me"

No doubt.

"but then Hitler got lots of support too "

Disagree with a LLL and presto your a Nazi. Patheticly shallow thinking, classic LLL trait.

"just feck off and go look for those WMD"

From day 1 I didnt like the focus on WMD I thought it a mistake when there were many other good reasons to go in as well. I would usually enumerate them but I suspect it would be wasted on ihatebush.

All one has to do is compare and contrast the quality of composition, thought and presentation in these posts to see the bankruptcy inherent in a lot of liberal positions.

ihatebush, we won, will continue winning, get use to it. Your attitude makes you irrelevant.

Comrade says: "It's strange that only the USA thinks that the treaty is stupid and unworkable, whereas most other industrialized nations have adopted it."

Clinton , congress and now President Bush rejected Kyoto for a few simple reasons. First, it would impose significant economic damage on the American economy (a Clinton administration report on the costs of Kyoto put the tab at $300 billion per year). Second, the reduction targets and timetables were impractical from a technological perspective. Third, the treaty exempted developing economies such as India and China from any restrictions even though their emissions are rising rapidly.

China, announced that they would not commit to any specific emissions reductions in the future. Gao Feng, a top official in the Chinese foreign ministry, boldly stated: "We are a developing country, we're not yet making international commitments.... We will continue to attend to our energy needs. We will need to increase our energy consumption for the next 30 to 50 years."

Several Kyoto participants, including most European nations, will not meet their stated emissions-reduction targets. Data from the Paris-based International Energy Agency (IEA) forecasts that European emissions will grow rapidly, increasing by as much as 25 percent by 2030. Several Kyoto signatories in Europe are already 20 to 30 percent above their emissions targets. If the Europeans can't drastically reduce their emissions, developing-country representatives reasoned, they have little reason to make similar pledges.

The Pew Center on Global Climate Change, a key Kyoto cheerleader and a player in climate-change negotiations for years, issued a new report, "Climate Data: Insights and Observations." A co-author of the report, Jonathan Pershing of the World Resources Institute, said, "We are beginning to see more research on adaptation strategies in response to climate change." Adaptation means having the capacity to handle climate changes of any kind, and organizations like Pew are beginning to focus more on adaptation — as opposed to mitigation — in part because the emissions reductions called for in Kyoto are too costly and technologically infeasible.

Italian environment minister Corrado Clini admitted to Kyoto's huge structural flaws and its current inability to deal adequately with the challenges posed by climate changes. Acknowledging the growing global need for secure energy resources, particularly by poor countries hoping to raise their living standards, Clini argued that "a much broader long-term strategy, and much more global effective measures, than those within the Kyoto Protocol, are needed, involving both developed and emerging economies."

The conventional wisdom that it's the United States against the rest of the world in climate change diplomacy is false. Instead it turns out that it is the Europeans who are isolated. China, India, and most of the rest of the developing countries have joined forces with the United States to completely reject the idea of future binding GHG emission limits. At the conference here in Buenos Aires, Italy shocked its fellow European Union members when it called for an end to the Kyoto Protocol in 2012. These countries recognize that stringent emission limits would be huge barriers to their economic growth and future development.

What part of this dont you understand Comrade ?

About Crime:

"Or can people on LA or Houston say the same ? I don't think so."

Most areas of LA are fine as with Houston. What is your personal experience to dispute that ? I just know you must have some. Tell us about it.

You later say "No, I've visited the USA several times. I assume you've visited Europe several times to sample for yourself our stupendous crime levels."

So you "visit" a country large enough that you could fit England into one state and your an expert ? As I said I haved lived and travelled a lot in Europe not "visited"

Ever noticed how to most LLL the Republicans are "evil, nazi, fascist, etc...Where to most Repubs the LLL are merely uneducated fools who if they were capable or willing to educate themselves and had the intellectual honesty to question their views there could be a discussion.

By the way I'm a lifelong Democrat who voted Repub for the first time...Kerry...give me a break. The man is a idiot. I believe drugs should be legalized..prohibition nevers works, we do need to work towards a practical environmental policy, and
companies should have more responsibility to treat employees fairly, something Euro has gone too far on and America doesnt have enough of. I am also agnostic. Kinda blows the whole religious, rightwing fascist thing huh?

Stalin

I live about a mile from a major town centre with several large clubs and lots of pubs. It is a warzone every weekend night.

Not even Hitler kept ordinary people out of their local pubs during the war. But your generation - you sound a young fool - have made life on the streets of Britain far more dangerous.

I feel far safer in LA or in NYC.

How many French elderly died in the Paris heat last summer while their kids were on holiday?

Oh yes. Europe has it all over us on the compassion and disaster response scores.

Obviously, Chirac hates old people.

"trying to rake in profits- suspending "prevailing wage" rules in the hurricane zone"

Whoever wrote this seems to not understand that these rules guaruntee two things.

1. A shortage of employees for the recovery work.
2. That the less experienced, poorer locals will not get the work.

Price controls when something is scarce cause shortages. That is basic economics.

Putting a floor on prices means employers will not hire lower cost employees. It does not mean that they will hire the folks you are trying to give a windfall to.

Geez, how can so many people be so ignorant of economics? One begins to suspect that this is the result of socialists and collectivists running school curriculums in the US and Europe for so many years.

Comrade Stalin: I have been to Europe so many times I have lost count. While many parts are lovely and feel perfectly safe, I have been uncomfortable in parts of London, Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt and even parts of the Hague.

Among the many problems if Europe, it is clear to me that you are looking at a real problem with unassimilated immigrants and so far you haven't handled it very well. Minorities have made real strides in the US. We're not done yet, but we've come a long way. I fear Europe is looking at tough times ahead.

And I do not believe that everyone that disagrees with me is intending to destroy the country.

But, whether you choose to believe it or not, many on the left wish to do exactly that. There are many confirmed Marxists in Hollywood that believe in violent overthrow of the US for no other reason than that it is capitalist. They support open borders, an ineffective military, UN control and anything which weakens America. This is how Hollywood, ostensibly liberal, can support fundamentalist terrorists over the troops of their own country.

Your own nom de blog (Stalin) suggests you may have some extreme views on politics. Stalin himself was the cause of staggering amounts of human suffering. I would feel personally uncomfortable travelling the webs under such a discredited standard.

You gotta love the bigoted foreign guys who've been debating in the echo chambers for so long actually running into Americans who haven't learned everything there is about the US government from European state media.

You're out of your leagues - we live here.

You gotta love the bigoted foreign guys who've been debating in the echo chambers for so long actually running into Americans who haven't learned everything there is about the US government from European state media.

You're out of your leagues - we live here.

Good article.

Sorry about the double, error first time.

A very interesting article. Regarding some of the comments above...


As an American who is tired of Europeans looking down their noses at us when they manifestly have not earned the right to do so, I would like to point out to those who think that President Bush reacted slowly the following incontrivertable facts:

1. Bush declared the gulf coast areas of Louisiana and Mississippi a federal disaster area some 2 or 3 days before Katrina made landfall. This empowered FEMA to preposition assets in the region before the hurrican hit - which they did.
   
   
   
2. In the U.S. there exists a constitutional barrier called "Posse Comitatus" (see The Myth of Posse Comitatus). From this link:

   The intent of the act is to prevent the military forces of the United States from becoming a national police force or guardia civil. Accordingly, the act prohibits the use of the military to “execute the laws.” Execution of the laws is perceived to be a civilian police function, which includes the arrest and detention of criminal suspects, search and seizure activities, restriction of civilian movement through the use of blockades or checkpoints, gathering evidence for use in court, and the use of undercover personnel in civilian drug enforcement activities.
   
   

The federal courts have had several opportunities to define what behavior by military personnel in support of civilian law enforcement is permissible under the act. The test applied by the courts has been to determine whether the role of military personnel in the law enforcement operation was “passive” or “active.” Active participation in civilian law enforcement, such as making arrests, is deemed a violation of the act, while taking a passive supporting role is not. Passive support has often taken the form of logistical support to civilian police agencies. Recognizing that the military possesses unique equipment and uniquely trained personnel, the courts have held that providing supplies, equipment, training, facilities, and certain types of intelligence information does not violate the act. Military personnel may also be involved in planning law enforcement operations, as long as the actual arrest of suspects and seizure of evidence is carried out by civilian law enforcement personnel.This policy is in effect because, constitutionally speaking, the several states have sovereignity over that which is not specifically claimed for the federal by the United States Constitution. This is something which Europeans truly do not understand about the American landscape - political, social, and legal.

I imagine that all of this is falling on deaf ears, but hopefully, that is not the case.


Regards,

The Annoyed Man

Annoyed man, LA nat guard WAS INDEED called out before the storm, all available personnel.

And I am not saying this to feed into the "all our troops are in Iraq" argument which is bullshit, because we do have enough of a guard and equipment level that we CAN take care of things here, but we do need to be realistic when it comes to logistics.
The fullest force available of LA nat guard was on duty and out in force, before landfal. It was not enough 3,000 bodies and nearly half of the vital equipment ARE in Iraq, which is why large scale disasters need to be coordinated federally right now, It is not that we are overstretched nationally, but on a local level, we are. And we know it. The LA commander called the commander of the New Mexico Nat Guard, to arrange for more help if necessary, NM Nat Guard troops were packed, ready and on standby before landfall, awaiting orders from Fema to deploy. They were ready because of the competence of LA officials, and delayed because of the imcompetence of FEMA who refused to deploy them. this is true of a veritable plethora of personnel and resources from my own state, and states all over the country. New Mexico nat guard, just a couple of hours away was not deployed ontil 6 days after landfall, even though they were prepared to go in immediately.

On Saturday, 5 days AFTER the Hurricane, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama officials had done ALL they could with no federal help. Governor Blanco refused to cede control of local assets to the FEDS because her assets were the ONLY ONES ON THE GROUND! President Bush asked her to relinquish control over her OWN assets. She never had control over assets falling under the FEMA umbrella. sorry to say. I would have done the same thing in the face of such incompetence, as would most of us.

The Posse Commitatus laws prevented National guard assets from self deployment, and hands on Law enforcement, but they do NOT prevent the national guard from being deployed by either FEMA or the President of the US for logistical support puposes. And they never have. They do prevent a local government from calling in national assets without the authority to do so, since it was a national emergency already, she lacked that authority, it had been handed to FEMA already.

Governor Blanco has a lot to answer for when it comes to the question of why both the superdome and and the convention center were not well stocked with water and food, Which would have delayed by a day or two the lawlessness that broke out. And she should be punished but other than that, the LA government held up remarkably well under the circumstances.

A federal Emergency was called by both Governor Blanco, and PRESIDENT BUSH before katrina made landfall. Bush even explained to us on national TV that the emergency was called early to enable federal assets to be at the ready, remember?
When he did that, he was taking control of the situation, legally and officially.

Your arguments are very selective, all of you on the right, this is the most talking point driven "Blame Game" I have ever seen come out of you people. But I have to say, it is exceedingly well organized. If it is indeed not time for the "Blame Game" when will it be? And why is it okay for you to play it so bloody loudly? Mistakes were indeed made on the federal level, DEADLY ones. If this is acceptable to you thats fine. But it is not acceptable to myself, or indeed most americans. President Bush appointed a complete incompetent to head FEMA, he is accountable for that.

It would truly be wise of you to look more deeply into the situation than your current rumor mills are pointing you, because our country will be paying for this for at least a generation. No matter who is at fault.

Rossz,

I loved your analogy. Especially the paragraph below…

"Anarchy breaks out in the French city. The EU would like to send in troops to restore order (perhaps the Germans, they know the way), but can't do so without permission from the French president."

…that one had me laughing out loud. It also reminds me of another column I had read that had a rather comical statement regarding Europe’s unhelpful criticisms of how New Orleans should have evacuated with the help of rail, all of course, after the fact. It went something like this; “Why wasn’t rail used to evacuate the refugee’s? After all, Germany had great success relocating downtrodden refugees by rail.

Hahahaha

Trust me, we don't need the lectures on the constitution and Posse Comitatus. I don't know whether the gentleman's fellow citizens are "jackasses", but it appears that significant numbers of American residents and citizens agree that the federal government response has been somewhat wanting. There even seem to be a few of them posting here. Please, stop with the "stupid Europeans don't understand the US", it just makes you seem xenophobic and ignorant.

The comparisions between European countries in terms of disaster management are specious as well. There isn't a shared military command across the European union yet (although there are efforts to create one). There is no cross-union framework for disaster management on the scale of the Department of Homeland Security.

fustian, there are dangerous neighbourhoods in any city and I would feel equally as unsafe as you have. There are dangerous neighbourhoods in every large American city too. I seem to have missed your point, perhaps you could spell it out to me.

"Among the many problems if Europe, it is clear to me that you are looking at a real problem with unassimilated immigrants and so far you haven't handled it very well."

To my knowledge, we have not in our recent history had an event on the scale of the riots in Los Angeles over the acquittal of the police officers involved in the Rodney King business, although in the UK anyway there have been riots such as the ones in Bradford a couple of years ago. I'm not sure how your claims about integration in the US have any credibility, going by the racially-inspired debate running under this discussion about the degree of help that was provided following this disaster. I would never try to claim that European countries are happy, safe and well-integrated - but I can't see any evidence that the US is doing any better.

"There are many confirmed Marxists in Hollywood "

You've pretty much lost credibility with that "reds under the bed" one. It's quite okay to be a Marxist. Sure, if someone still believes in that stuff I'd regard them as a bit of an idiot, but nonetheless they have their democratic right to advocate what they believe in.

FWIW, Hollywood here is generally regarded as pro-US and rather patriotic, even to the point of bending historical facts. See films such as U-571 or 1492, or Pearl Harbor etc. I guess the Vietnam war is really the only one that was given serious critical treatment in Hollywood, but I'd say in that case that Hollywoood more accurately reflects public opinion.

"They support open borders, an ineffective military, UN control and anything which weakens America."

That is perhaps because they do not share your analysis of what weakens or strengthens the US. I'm not going to get into a debate with you over the rights and wrongs of these matters, but none of the people I know with liberal/left opinions in the USA are out to destroy the country. Rather they believe that the activities of the present government, and the views of the right, are themselves destructive. Witness this present situation in Iraq - maybe the USA really is safer, but does anyone really believe that the US will win the present war, or be able to install democracy in that country ? You may believe that spending $100bn+ on a war like that strengthens the US, but you have to understand how to many people that seems counterintuitive.

Comrade Stalin: "It's strange that only the USA thinks that the treaty is stupid and unworkable, whereas most other industrialized nations have adopted it."

Sorry, but large numbers of scientists all over the world think CO2 has nothing to do with global warming. Since that is what the Kyoto Treaty is based upon, it appears that the governments of "most other industrialized nations" have jumped the gun.

You see, we here in the US we already know that astronomers have been watching SOLAR WARMING for decades! Global warming on Mars was confirmed in 2001. Global warming on Jupiter was confirmed last year. These are NOT theories, like the CO2 theory. These are facts, proven, solid, and totally unrelated to any human activity.

There is not one, single shread of indisputable evidence to support the idea that CO2 is causing global warming. It is a FACT that the SUN ITSELF is getting warmer, however. And there's nothing that a piece of paper signed in Kyoto can do about it.

Katie

You are totally wrong in law.

The President's declaration of a state of emergency does NOT give him local control. It merely allows him to offer support to the local First Responders.

As you are wrong in this basic element of US law, the rest of your stuuff falls by the wayside.

But your suggestion that nothing was done at federal level to get assets into the region before Saturday is patently absurd. There were tens of thousands of National Guard and federal military there well before then, plus lots of emergency relief assets. Plus the Navy, plus the Coastguard, plus large numbers of emergency workers mobilised by FEMA in its coordinating role.

But the Governor remained in control. She and only she had the jurisdiction.

This is I believe the second time on this blog that you have made this fundamental mistake ? I suggest you go away and do US Civics 101.

Katie, excellent post. As usual, the facts will ultimately win out. That's why those on the right have to make them up.

Anyone who takes the position that the President and the abysmal federal response was the sole cause of the deaths which needlessly occurred after Katrina went through has no credibilty.

By the same token, anyone who takes the position that it was the response by the state and local governments which was the sole cause also has no credibility.

And anyone who really thinks that the "Marxists in Hollywood" are relevant...well, Katie hit that point nicely.

Chuck: "As usual, the facts will ultimately win out. That's why those on the right have to make them up."

The fact that will win out is that the President has no jurisdiction in Louisiana.

He could have done nothing... zero, non, nit, zilch... without the permission of the Governor of Lousiana. And even after sending in the National Guard, the Guard was under the command of the Governor, not the President. ONLY the active-duty military is under the command of the President when deployed in the States. And it was National Guard that were sent in... under Gov. Blanco's command.

This was Gov Blanco's show to either win or screw up. She screwed up.

Chuck: "As usual, the facts will ultimately win out. That's why those on the right have to make them up."

The fact that will win out is that the President has no jurisdiction in Louisiana.

He could have done nothing... zero, non, nit, zilch... without the permission of the Governor of Lousiana. And even after sending in the National Guard, the Guard was under the command of the Governor, not the President. ONLY the active-duty military is under the command of the President when deployed in the States. And it was National Guard that were sent in... under Gov. Blanco's command.

This was Gov Blanco's show to either win or screw up. She screwed up.

Comrade Stalin: In response to a previous poster that claimed Texas was quite safe, you implied that neither Houston nor LA was safe and that overstates the case considerably. Many of my European friends believe that the US is a violent place full of gun-toting racists, but this stereotype is as untrue as the belief that Europe is a gentle sanctuary free from all crime and violence.

I have lived in Houston, LA and New Orleans. Houston and LA have their bad areas, but New Orleans felt considerably less safe than either, and it could be argued that there simply are no safe areas in New Orleans. I think that many of the problems that occurred in New Orleans are largely unique to that city.

You say that I have lost credibillity by pointing out that Marxist thought is still quite fashionable in Hollywood, but I observe that you don't actually disagree. Instead you suggest that there is nothing wrong with holding that particular philosophy, but I beg to differ.

There is some percentage of Muslims who are in the US not to join with us, but because they believe they are colonizing the US for the eventual Caliphate (unlikely in my view). There is also the Aztlan crowd from Mexico that believes in retaking large parts of the American southwest (still unlikely, but less unlikely). The Hollywood crowd supports both of these efforts. I have a hard time seeing either effort as in the best interests of the US.

At some point, beliefs like these stop being about dissent and cross the line into something that looks like disloyalty to me.

Much of our government relies on the fact that people of goodwill are all in this together and are deciding on priorities in a democratic way. This model can break down if its initial conditions are not met.

You seem to imply that Marxism is dead, but again I disagree strongly. The left is as informed by Marxist thought as it ever was. In fact, without those core beliefs, what's left? And those people believe that capitalism is evil and that it is their moral duty to fight against it to rescue the oppressed workers of the world.

Those of us who are conservative but not nutjobs worry about a country without a credible loyal opposition. I certainly do not want to see a government and its media and culture all in lockstep.

But it is certainly possible to go beyond the level of "loyal opposition" and into the realm of treason. There is a line there. We may disagree with where it is, but it is there nonetheless. And to me, many in Hollywood are at least uncomfortably close to that line. They are not on our side. They want the US to fail. They cheer the terrorists, and spit on our troops. They magnify the crimes of Abu Ghraib and deny the crimes of Saddam Hussein. They are in love with Castro. They would give us British dental care, French bureaucracy, Cuban civil rights and North Korean prosperity.

Hollywood is probably more pro-US than Kim Jong-Il or Robert Mugabe, but only just.

Comrade Stalin:

You say Hollywood is generally regarded as pro-US where you live. I'm assuming that's not America.

I'm not suggesting that anyone who is anti-Bush is also anti-American. Indeed, I believe there are many folks here (in America) who hate Bush and love their country. Dissent is their right, indeed, their obligation.

But the Hollywood of the post-Vietnam era goes beyond dissent, and Mainstream America knows it. The record spans from Jane Fonda's visit to the North Vietnam in 1972, to Sean Penn showing up in Baghdad on the eve of the conflict to protest the war.

No, there is nothing wrong with being a Marxist. But the actors, writers and directors who sympathize with them are hypocrites. They make their living as benefactors of the First Admendent, which guarantees free speech. Marxists regimes offer no such protection for dissenters.

Great article. It is good to see some good sense from our friends across the pond.

Interesting comments as well. It started out sounding very "British;" proper and all. Then the Yanks showed up and starting a rolicking bar brawl. We do take our politics and policy discussions pretty serious over here; as well we should. The conversation can get a bit out of hand once in a while but light is sometimes shed.

Keep up the honest work.

JasonT

mamapajamas

Amen

In today's Sunday Times the usually-liberal Simon Jenkins says that Katrin criticism went after Bush like a heat-seeking missile - swerving past those directly responsible, the Governor and the Mayor.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-1774350,00.html

Quote John in london:

You are totally wrong in law.

The President's declaration of a state of emergency does NOT give him local control. It merely allows him to offer support to the local First Responders.

But your suggestion that nothing was done at federal level to get assets into the region before Saturday is patently absurd. There were tens of thousands of National Guard and federal military there well before then, plus lots of emergency relief assets. Plus the Navy, plus the Coastguard, plus large numbers of emergency workers mobilised by FEMA in its coordinating role.

This is I believe the second time on this blog that you have made this fundamental mistake ? I suggest you go away and do US Civics 101.

I'd like to offer you the same suggestion John in london. The emergency was federalized and announced as fedaral on national TV by President Bush, Brown from Fema and Blanco BEFORE LANDFALL Bush (through FEMA) had the power to respond all along. and they did not.

You are right in one thing, and only one thing, there were coastguard units in the area immediately, you see being on the coast in such a huge port, LA actually has coast guard bases right there! Amazing, I know. They were not deployed there by FEMA, they just were there.

I find it hard to believe your Ideology has made you so blind to anthing that might partially resemble a fact.

If Dubya and FEMA really were Hamstringed by LA Govt' Why did they keep having press conferences on TV promising needed resources that never got there? Why did they not just come right out and say at the time "We really wanna help you folks, But the governor wont sign the paperwork" huh? That argument was not even thought up by the spin guys you love so much until last saturday. It would have been at the forefront is those were the true legalities, which they are not. Why did Bush 41 send federal troops in immediately to the LA riots w/o needing days advance notice for paperwork. Your argument is so flimsy it makes me laugh,

I do not know who came up with the analogy that it is like Germany stepping in to help france. It is not, it is like Lyon stepping in to help paris, Or diverting resourses from derry in cases of emergency in belfast. it can be done and it is legal. Washington DC and Louisiana are actually both in the same country. And washington DC actually is the nations capital, and therefore the boss.

If FEMA is truly so legally paralyzed they can do nothing relating to emergency management, why is it there? Why did I spend ten years reporting every change of phone number or laundry management or surgery staff in my hospitals Emergency response plan directly to FEMA, and not to the governor of my state?

Please take the wool from your eyes and look at things realistically, or just be quiet. the news you are reading is far too one sided for you to have an accurate view of the situation. You are a silly man.

And your whole hearted rush into the BLAME GAME (rolling my eyes at ya right now hon) is laughable

The dems are playin a blame game?!!!!! look in the mirror sugar.

Some observations and questions from north of the 49th parallel.

Why were the 5 of the top 8 FEMA officials politcal appointees with little or no disaster management experience?

Source: http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2D3616CB

No matter where you stand on the issue of state vs local vs federal culpability for the poor response, isn't it material that the executive ranks of the federal body charged with co-ordinating response are rank with cronies of Bush whose main claim to their jobs was their closeness to Bush rather than their experience in disaster management?

Why did Bush say that no-one could have forseen the levees being breached? Don't his advisers have access to Google?

Source: http://www.nola.com/hurricane/?/washingaway/index.html

Source: http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y404126CB

Why did Michael Brown of FEMA state on US national TV on Thursday afternoon that he didn't know that there were thousands of people at the Convention Centre needing aid? Don't his advisers watch CNN?

Why did city and state officials not plan beter for the evacuation of those with "low-mobility"?

Source: http://makeashorterlink.com/?X124526CB

Quote: "Brian Wolshon, an engineering professor at Louisiana State University who served as a consultant on the state's evacuation plan, told The New York Times that little attention was paid to moving out the city's "low-mobility" population -- the elderly, the infirm and the poor without cars. How would they be moved? At disaster planning meetings, he said, "the answer was often silence.""

Katie: Geesh, your comments are SO full of errors it's hard to keep up with them all!

re: "The Posse Commitatus laws prevented National guard assets from self deployment, and hands on Law enforcement, but they do NOT prevent the national guard from being deployed by either FEMA or the President of the US for logistical support puposes. And they never have."

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!

They are NOT to keep the National Guard from self-deployment, they are to keep ANYONE from deploying them except the given state's civilian government!

In fact, the Posse Commitatus Act was created specifically in response to the disaster that was the Reconstruction.

Federal troops did enormous damage in the South after the Civil War ended. Having taken over military governorships in several states, there was reason for that... they had just put down an insurrection. HOWEVER, it was found that not everyone is cut out to be military, and not everyone responds well to military authority. And they had a tendency to shoot first before clearing up misunderstandings.

Reconstruction was almost as big a disaster as the Civil War itself. I had eight great-grandparents from Georgia who remembered Reconstruction personally and told the kind of horror stories that would curl your hair.

So the Posse Commitatus Act was created specifically to avoid that particular pitfall in future times. Military governorships would be the choice of LAST RESORT, not something that would happen routinely with each natural disaster. In normal times (ie: those times short of an outright rebellion in the states!) the military can NOT act in ANY state without the direct permission of the state government! That means the governor has to grant permission for them to act. Period.

Blanco did NOT grant permission.

Katie: (again!!!) "I do not know who came up with the analogy that it is like Germany stepping in to help france. It is not, it is like Lyon stepping in to help paris,"

No, it is NOT like that. It is like Germany stepping in to help France.

The US are 50 soverign states allied by a common Constitution. Laws that are covered by the US Constitution are entirely up to the states.

Read the *^(*&!(!! 10th Amendment!

Correction: Laws that are NOT covered by the Constitution are up to the states.

Jews in America had a big problem with white privledge.

How did they overcome it?

Hard work.

There is no other way for the outs to join the ins.

Christ! Mama pajamas,
You are very likely one of those people who had NO compunction about bashing Bill Clinton every chance you got, and continue blaming him for every problem within the bush admin to this very day. so step off the blame game sound bite, all of you righties, not just mampajamas. it makes you sound like you ate too much lead paint as children. There is not a day that goes by among right wing talkers that Clinton or Carter is not blamed for something. and I think you all know it. YOU ARE THE ABSOLUTE BEST WHEN IT COMES TO THE BLAME GAME! you invented it.

Many people are dead and or traumatized due only to incompetence, there is blame to be meted out here, and lots of it belongs right on our presidents doorstep. I know it makes you uncomfortable to face it but you are supposedly rational people, why can't you just buckle down and face it?

All we have talked about for the past four years is homeland security, huge portions of our taxes have been sunk into disaster preparedness, and to what ends? It seems that nobody within the homeland security umbrella has any IDEA what security entails. none. And really why would they, it is not thier area of expertise. They are for the most part, friends and friends of a friend of the president. Not emergency preparedness professionals.

FEMA COULD HAVE DONE A LOT MORE. FEMA DID NOT, no matter how much you lie to yourselves to make yourselves fell better about what you have seen, it still happened.

if fema was doing such a great job, why was micheal brown removed from duty? Open your eyes oh rational and smug right!

I assume from your handle that you are a mother, what if you had been stuck there, wondering how to feed your children?

Katie

You just do not understand the Stafford Act, do you ?

"Federalising" does NOT put the President, or FEMA on his behalf, in charge, in control. It merely allows FEMA to coordinate SUPPORT to the State. And it allows the President to authorise the necessary expenditures (within the funds allocated by Congress).

The Governor REMAINS IN CONTROL. Unless the Governor relinquishes control to the President. Which she refused to do.

And all US disaster relief planning is based on the cities and states being the FIRST RESPONDERS. THEY should have ensured the evacuation, THEY should have ensured proper provisioning for the people they so stupidly sent to the Superbowl and the Convention Centre, THEY should have ensured proper police and National Guard control there. And it was the Louisiana officials who PREVENTED both the Red Cross and the Salvation Army from sending in food, water and sanitation services. (Just check the Red Cross website)

In short, THEY should have operated THEIR OWN PLANS properly. It was their failures that have so shocked America and the world. There was no such failure in the other states affected.

Just read all about it in the Houston Chronicle. Get your facts half straight.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3344347

And then learn some of the basics of the relative responsibilities and powers of city, state and federal agencies. Here is the whole damn training manual - something the Mayor and Governor and their emergency staffs should have known. It is all spelled out in English plain enough for even you to understand :

http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/downloads/IS7complete.pdf

And your suggestion that FEMA was sitting around doing nothing is also stupid. Here's a timeline :

http://virtueofnecessity.blogspot.com/2005/09/femanational-guarddod-response-week-1.html

And here are some observtions about the local situation from someone on the scene :

http://polipundit.com/index.php?p=9917

His overall view is that any platoon sergeant of the Louisiana National Guard wold have done a better job of controlling matters than Governor Blanco.

http://polipundit.com/index.php?p=9917

Here is another listing of the actions taken by FEMA :

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/KHII-6G27AN?OpenDocument&rc=2&emid=TC-2005-000144-USA

Wow, Katie, your forceful argument about how you are right because you're really unhappy and sure you are right is just super duper extra compelling. But, alas, everyone else seems to have a firmer grasp on the actual facts involved here.

Unless FEMA had magical hurricane eating dragons that they forgot to employ, then there would be something to shore up your claim that "FEMA COULD HAVE DONE A LOT MORE" besides the caps lock key.

I'm unhappy that FEMA could not have done more, but I'm furious that Nagin's and Blanco's disaster preperation seems to revolve around pointing fingers and crying a lot. They dropped the ball, and your understanding of FEMA's and the federal government's capabilities and responsibilities is lacking.

And here is the video with the President of the American Red Cross and a senior Salvation Army man confirming that they were PREVENTED from bringing supplies to all those thousands in the Superdome and the Convention Centre.

http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/09/08/garretredcross/

"Federalizing", Katie, means making Federal funds (especially) and, generally speaking, Federal help available. There are hundreds of storms every year that are handled entirely locally and the local authorities get no help from the Federal government at all in responding to them.

When a storm is big enough and causes enough damage, an area can be declared a Federal disaster area. Again, that authorizes the federal authorities to assist state and local authorities. With money and other help. It does not mean, in any sense of the word, that the response to the storm becomes the exclusive responsibility of the federal government. The local authorities remain in charge and it is the job of the Federal government to assist them.

You might think that's a bad idea, and you can argue it should be changed, but that's the system as it currently stands. (And there are sound historical and philosophical reasons for why it is the way it is.) If you want to make the case that things should change, go ahead, just don't try to claim that the system is something that it is not and then expect people to take your argument seriously. We don't take our Constitution lightly over here (note the capital "C") and we don't brush it aside on a whim because down that road lies potential disaster. The Constitution can change, but it's only through deliberation and votes in Congress and the states that it does. The president doesn't have the power (or the right) to singlehandedly redefine the role of the federal government in the middle of a hurricane. That's not the time or the place and he's not the person to do it.

If you're saying that the FEMA response was less than ideal and less than we all wished for, you'll have a lot of people with you. If you're saying that FEMA is solely responsible (or FEMA and the president) for what happened in New Orleans then you're going to lose a lot of people who have eyes and can see and think for themselves and know how our system works. It's called a federal system for a reason, and the fact that states have sovereignty is not some abstract concept. It has serious implications in the real world. We've seen some of them this week.

I do understand the stafford act, and FEMA was granted the ability to send food, water and troops in days before the storm. legally. They acknowledged this and informed america that the necessary supplies were prepositioned and at the ready. That is called coordination. The LA government, had they been met with an adequate supply of other resources immediately, which they assumed they would have, as they had coordinated other states resources before the storm hit, all that was left to do was signing the dotted line by guess who? F E M A. thats who. Troops firefighters and supplies were at the ready. At the request of LA, and they sat bone idle for a week waiting for the Fema authorization to take place. this is how it works in my state too. Except under Witt, nobody sat bone idle, if things were needed, they got done.

Quoting you here.
""Federalising" does NOT put the President, or FEMA on his behalf, in charge, in control. It merely allows FEMA to coordinate SUPPORT to the State. And it allows the President to authorise the necessary expenditures (within the funds allocated by Congress)."

Perhaps you can talk about the fact that conversely, state government needs authorization from FEMA to begin importing assets from other states. or are you going to ignore that? perhaps because you don't like that part? I would not either if I were arguing your point. It is necessary for it to be this way because we cannot have governors in North dakota going off half cocked and commandeering resources from all over the tornado alley that may be needed elsewhere during tornado season. that is why we HAVE FEMA

Now assuming that the governer was totally in control of this situation legally and was able to thwart the the weight and power of the federal government at every turn like you suggest, why then, did she BEG for troops and support on national television? Smokescreen? Communist Plot? Aliens? Hatred of Bush that superceded all sense of despair at watching the deaths of her constituents?

Why was she not actually asked to cede control until nearly a week from landfall? Surely the legalities of this mess would have been discussed when Bush, Fema and Blanco were declaring a federal emergency two days before landfall. And surely it would have taken only an hour or two for FEMA professionals to realize she was incompetent.

And you are right, disaster planning is based in part by planning at a local level But in every state, disaster preparedness plans MUST be okayed by fema officials. LA has never had the tax base to prepare for this on thier own, we know and knew this, that is why our friends at FEMA (those fema guys again) have been planning for years to take a much more active role than they would have to in say, Biloxi missippi, which has a smaller population, making it easier to manage. Or in say manhattan, NY which has a much larger population but a comparitively gigantic tax base. Add this to the fact that this was a predicted catostrophic disaster, FEMA knew it was serious. Thats why it had spent so much money wargaming this exact scenario.

Now add to it the fact that nearly a third of LA nat guard troops and almopst half of thier equipment was in Iraq, LA was unable to deploy in the nombers they may have if they had a full complement of troops. Did the feds ot realize this? Did nobody say hell 3thousand of LAs gaurd are overseas, we gotta see about using some of the troops from the 42 states that do not have hurricane risks? LA did. FEMA didn't. Yes, five hours after Katrina ended, Brown sent a memo releasing 1000 troops into the three state disaster zone. this was unnaceptable and in the days that followed, he continued to trickle numbers that were totally insufficient into the area. It is not his fault, he did not know any better. thats why he should not have been in charge of the big boy clipboard. If LA were indeed in charge, and running roughshod with thier considerable constitutional authority, how was fema able to trickle in supplies and personel? Would it have been not illegal to send in insufficient amounts, and illegal only to send sufficient ones? You are the legal eagle here, just askin.

Why are you excusing the fact that thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people sat in the NO convention center until FRIDAY before they recieved enough rations and water for 3-400 people, until saturday until they recieved sufficient food and water for everyone to have a meal?

The arguments that you are making are not even being made by the whitehouse, because they KNOW they are fucked in a barrel on this one. And this is not a whitehouse that shies away from the blame game.

Arguing with you is like arguing with a 7 year old who is insisting on wearing red cowboy boots with her ballet tutu to go grocery shopping, You know she looks stupid, but she just isn't gonna hear it.

"Why are you excusing the fact that thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people sat in the NO convention center until FRIDAY before they recieved enough rations and water for 3-400 people, until saturday until they recieved sufficient food and water for everyone to have a meal?"

By all accounts, the Red Cross and Salvation Army were blocked from feeding and supplying those people by, guess who?, the state government. They were obviously exercising their inherent soverignty to make that (presumably unwise) decision.

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html

kcom

No I am not saying that NO officials bear NO responsibility in this matter. they do bear some, but looking at the situation logically, NO did a lot with almost no budget, and very little resources, thier mistakes should be investigated, and those responsible should be accountable. but in comparison to FEMA, thier budget and resources were comparitively nil. Fema and DHS have had money from all over the nation diverted to thier coffers since the inception of DHS. local authorities have far less to work with than they did pre 9/11. Because in the interest of national security, we have supposedly streamlined things.

Kcom

Salvo and the rc are civilian volunteers, they cannot be sent into completly lawless situations, perhaps if all that troop strength had been sent in that the feds were patting eachother on the back on TV press conferences over, had been actually on its way, redcross and salvo could heve just been told to wait and hour or two for an escort, local cops and nat guard could not be called in because thier triply redundant systems had ALL FAILED IN the storm.

Personally, were I blanco, I would have sent the trucks in anyway, with a car following them and told the drivers to open the tailgates and abandon the vehicles. Just drop the food and get the heck outa there. but that WOULD be illegal, I just don't think I would care at that point.

fuck it - get Bush anyway

Katie

You finally, grudgingly accept that FEMA was not IN CONTROL. Thus destroying most of youur earlier rants.

Then you start talking about missing resources.

The prime missing resource at local level appears to have been leadership. They HAD an evacation plan. They HAD hundreds and hundreds of buses right there in the city. The Governor HAD authority to negotiate with any other state to bring in backup National Guards. And the main resource that was needed, namely food and water for the Superdome and the Convention Centre, was there locally with the American Red Cross and the Salvation Army. The Governor's staff refused to allow it to be deployed. They did not cite lack of protection for the RC or SA. They simply did not want to reprovision all those tens of thousands of people.

Just read the Houston Chronicle article. By a seasoned investigative jornlist - not a polemicist.

and just look at this photo :

http://www.blindmanphoto.com/images/Stop-Blaming-FEMA.jpg

And weep.

katie

Based on what you have written in this thread and other threads it is obvious that you must have been asleep during the American Government 101 class in high school How about starting with reading the book like The Complete Idiot's Guide To American Government before we start getting into the nuts and bolt of how the US *actually* works, not *should* work, because it is very obvious you have no real understanding of who is supposed to do what, or more importantly who has the legal right to do what.

You claim to have had some experience of emergency response / disaster planning yet you seem to be very hazy on who is actually responsible for what. You must never have taken a close look at the org chart.

During normal times the chain of command (and legal responsibility) starts and ends at the local government level (unless you work for a state agency). When the gov declares a state of emergency the chain of command (and legal responsibility) now starts and ends and the governors office and the governor. Go read your states codes and constitution, it is all spelled out very clearly.

When the Feds declare a state of emergency it does not override the chain of command established in states declaration of emergency. As someone else pointed out a Federal state of emergency just provides the legal framework for providing federal resources. Nothing more nothing less. Go read the statutes and laws governing FEMA, they are very clear.

So thousands of people were trapped in horrendous conditions in the Dome. By whose command? The governor of the state of Louisiana and through the agency of the La N.G.. Who has the legal power to override that particular decision of the governor? Definitely not the president of the United States. The Federal State of Emergency does not give him this power, nor do any of the other federal statues or constitutional powers. And we are way beyond Executive Order territory here.

The only body with the legal power to challenge and override the decision of a governor during a state of emergency is the state assembly. Again read the state codes and constitution.

There is no provision in the state or federal system for dealing with office holder incompetence and negligence, other than recall and impeachment. Once the governor of a state and the states assembly abrogate their legal responsibilities and duties through negligence, incompetence or cowardness, there is not a lot that can be done. And nothing short of a Federal Constitutional Amendment will change than.

J McConnell

Don't confuse Katie with the facts.

The Houston Chronicle article posted bove gave the facts.

This repeats the main facts for the vital initial days and gives the essential lessons :

http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=59834

And this nails the primry responsibility :

http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=59834

A view from Florida of the sheer incompetence of Louisiana:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/content/state/epaper/2005/09/10/m1a_response_0910.html

And HERE is the official Louisiana state/parish level Plan covering evacuation and shelter for the people of New Orleans.

Don't worry guys. I am not confused by the facts, I am fully informed of them, and as such I am not as succeptible to propagande and innuendo as yourselves.

Although I thank you all the hard hitting, factual and non biased links you have been using to illustrate your boints, like politicalteen.com and Fox News, I really respectfullt suggest to you that you look at some LESS Biased news, If there were not a problem on the national level, the white house would surely not be admitting culpability and moving key players around like they are. For a less biased and straight from the source take on the story, I suggest you all take a look at www.whitehouse.gov, it too is chock a block full of blameshifting and factual manipulation, but a much clearer picture of what happened begins to emerge after an hour or so of looking. And for a truly enlightened look, check out National public radio and you may develop an understanding of the intricacies of all that you are misquoting. Frankly, I am done arguing because you folks are fools, and I am pretty embarrassed that this site that I look at for Irish News was descended upon by so many rude insulting and hostile members of my own country, I have watched you all fully live up to our reputation as ugly americans. Good Job kids.

Excellent article and commentary.......

One observation:
Those who provided links and suggested reading material for the Bush-Hater Lefties are barking up the wrong tree.

They won't bother reading them, because they're not as concerned with the truth as they are in supporting their own prejudices, no matter how illogical.

They will believe any argument against anyone who does not support their ideology, especially if that person wields political power.

And if that argument may be distilled down to few enough words to fit on a bumper sticker, it suddenly attains the aura of immutable, universal, historical fact.

Hence, we are constantly bombarded with inanities such as, "Bush Lied, Men Died".

Republicans, conservatives, (do they really still exist?) and especially Pres. Bush and his appointeess are ALWAYS bad and wrong, even if they do or say the exact same thing as a Democrat.

I have only now stopped laughing at Katie's proposition that someone on the right invented the "blame game" and that NPR is to be considered "unbiased".

Sure they did.

And Democrats abolished slavery, right? Rrriiiiight.

Tell it to the approximately 30 million slaves living today.

Hint to lefties: a lie, repeated a thousand times, does not become truth, no matter how hard you want it believed.

If you want someone to impeach, convict, and remove from office, may I suggest that you compare the actions of the mayor of Biloxi and the Gov. of Mississippi to those of New Orleans and Louisiana.

Hint: Both were interacting with FEMA, so why the different outcomes?

Could it be because in LA the local emergency plans were not followed?

Duuuuhhhh.

But all in all, an interesting exchange.

Katie

I'm impressed. Really really impressed.

You are the first person I have ever run into who considers State Constitutions, State Uniform Codes and Statutes of the United States Congress as biased and uninformed sources.

What's an unbiased source in your opinion. Pacifica Radio? Indy-Media? Democratic Underground? Daily Kos? What you tell us?

Like all DSM IV democrats you cannot argue you point because there is no point to argue, you just want people to agree with you, and when they disagree with you your only come back is - you are just all just gullible fools. You cannot argue from fact, because you dont know what the facts are. And probably dont care.

The law is fact. The historical interpretation of those laws is fact. Well meaning good intentions based on compassion, is just that, good intentions. Civil society is built on law, not good intentions. So any discussion of failures in civil society have to start with the law, not circular discussions about woolly headed good intentions.

You sound just like all those boomers suffering from BDS that I run into all the time in the Bay Area, who have a hissy fit if you dare to disagree with their armageddonist political conspiracy theories that they try to pass off as informed political opinion.

"I really respectfullt suggest to you that you look at some LESS Biased news"

What like CBS, ABC or NBC. Oh, NPR that bastion of un-biased reporting.

"descended upon by so many rude insulting and hostile members of my own country"

Lets Quote The always reasonable and respectful Katie:

"If you beleive that LA officials were flexing some imaginary muscles and not allowing our countries leader to help, you are STUPID"

I guess we should bow to your massive intellect and blindly accept whatever you tell us.

"just as smart as smart americans, a category which cannot claim you as a member"

Once again your Omnipotence or is it arrogance is amazing.

"but one thang is true darlin' everything is bigger in Texas, even the fools!"

I'm not your darlin you twit.

"I find it hard to believe your Ideology has made you so blind to anthing that might partially resemble a fact."

Hail Katrina the absolute authority on reality.

"YOU ARE THE ABSOLUTE BEST WHEN IT COMES TO THE BLAME GAME!"

Coming from a LLL, irony at its best.

"Please take the wool from your eyes and look at things realistically, or just be quiet"

I know I know, if we would just agree with you we would have the right to speak.

"the news you are reading is far too one sided for you to have an accurate view of the situation. You are a silly man."

Once again Katie is so superior to us in her ability to discern the "real" truth cause were stoopid and shes enlightened.

"Your arguments are very selective, all of you on the right"

All of us huh. Do you usually resort to absolutes when badly losing an discussion.

"You are very likely one of those people who had NO compunction about bashing Bill Clinton every chance you got"

My God she's a psychic...mama she's sure got your number.

"all of you righties, not just mampajamas. it makes you sound like you ate too much lead paint as children."

ALL of us again hmmm a trend in lazy thinking maybe? She nicely follows with an insult.

"Arguing with you is like arguing with a 7 year old who is insisting on wearing red cowboy boots with her ballet tutu to go grocery shopping, You know she looks stupid, but she just isn't gonna hear it."

I could talk about teaching pigs to fly...but wont.

"Don't worry guys. I am not confused by the facts, I am fully informed of them, and as such I am not as succeptible to propagande and innuendo as yourselves."

Shields up captain were being boarded. Picture fingers in ears repeating...I cant hear you..I cant hear you..I cant hear you..

"Frankly, I am done arguing because you folks are fools"

Poor brave Sir Robin. (Monty Python reference.)

"I have watched you all fully live up to our reputation as ugly americans."

Awwww, we've embarrassed her cause we dont agree and actually can present a coherant case for our position.

As for a consistant position Katie says:

"And I am not saying this to feed into the "all our troops are in Iraq" argument which is bullshit, because we do have enough of a guard and equipment level that we CAN take care of things here"

But then she says:

"Now add to it the fact that nearly a third of LA nat guard troops and almopst half of thier equipment was in Iraq, LA was unable to deploy in the nombers they may have if they had a full complement of troops."

Which one is it or does your position change depending on what point your trying to make. How very french of you.

Katie as I am not the all seeing one as you seem to fancy yourself I'll just hazard a guess about you.

25 or younger, college educated(oxymoron), thinks with emotion(I feeeel therefore I am right)barely wet behind the ears. I could be wrong...I'm not psychic like you.

The arrogant attitude you and other libs exude is part of the reason (Kerry being a clown the other one)I voted Repub for the first time and will for the forseeable future.

Get use to losing elections until your party grows up.

Nothing really new in this, except the suggestion that in total there were some 2000 buses in NO that could have been used for the evacuation. At 50 people per bus, I make that 100,000 seats. Enough to have cleared the entire city.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm

As for bleating Katie, nowhere does she question the fact that the city and the state had emergency evacuation plans - and failed to apply them. And they also failed to provide for law and order, which further exacerbated the problems.

That is the whole issue.

The Mayor and the Governor have brought shame on New Orleans.

Many tens of thousands will never return. And there will be strong reluctance to letting the usual local corruption bleed away reconstruction money.

The Dem party will now be reviled by many citizens of Louisiana. So eventually a political price will be paid for the sheer incompetence of the Dems who caused such pain, and many deaths.

The worst of the deaths were among the most helpless. 70% of the nursing homes were not evacuated, even thogh they are a priority in the Mayor's own evacuation plan. We have lreafy seen the gruesome effects of the city's negligence towards its most vulnerable.

And now we have reports that some doctors were driven to killing their own patients - to save them from further pain - because they had not been evacuated promptly in spite of being priority cases in the city and state evacuation plans.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=361980&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ct=5

GC

I think you are wrong on one point.

Based on the evidence supplied in her posts, Katie is an middle aged mid-level hospital administrator who lives in a state that does not suffer area wide natural disasters.

She has that undertow of slightly bullying condescension that is common to all people whose jobs involve positions of power over those who are dependent rather than equals. The best example of this syndrome are university professors. You have never really experienced intellectual arrogance until you have tried to argue with a professor about a subject outside their area of competence and well inside your own. An experience I would definitely recommend for those who put much credence in the roving pontifications of university professors.

From Katie: "Although I thank you all the hard hitting, factual and non biased links you have been using to illustrate your boints, like politicalteen.com and Fox News..."

You're not guilty of your own criticisms, are you, Katie? In your words, "Your arguments are very selective, all of you on the right...". I noticed you didn't mention the links to the Houston Chronicle, Manchester Union Leader and Palm Beach Post (all mainline newspapers) that were featured in other posts. Why only the selective use of politicalteen and Fox News? No doubt because you thought that would help your case. I guess using selective arguments is okay when it helps your cause but not okay when others do it.

And you certainly haven't responded to the substance of the articles in those publications I mentioned. For example, from the Palm Beach Post:

"Florida emergency planners criticized and even rebuked their counterparts -- or what passes for emergency planners -- in those states for their handling of Hurricane Katrina."

And especially this:

"If we weren't prepared, and we didn't do our part, no amount of work by FEMA could overcome the lack of preparation," he (Jeb Bush) said."

A big thank to all the American folks who have visited this site and have added some sense and clarity to the discussion.

Please excuse our ignorance of the American political system. You see, after many decades of trying in Northern Ireland, we still have not been able to figure out a political system that will work for those of us who live here, so, I suppose, we have little right to try to tell others how their system could or should work.

It is true that European liberals loathe ‘ugly’ America. It is also true that America's liberal elite suffer from a severe case of self-loathing. However, most people that I come in contact with here in NI love and respect America for what it has done/is doing for the world.

Getting back to the topic on this thread, the more photographs I see of buses sitting in feet of water, the angrier I get. But it gets even worse when I hear some people still trying to excuse the actions of the incompetent imbeciles who either refused help from outside the state, or failed to use the local resources available to them, including the disaster action plan.

The indecent haste with which Bush-haters tried to make the president the scapegoat is a clear testimony to their duplicity and subjectivity. Bush may be taking a hit in the polls at the moment, but when the truth finally shines through the smokescreen created by these liberals, and their anti-Bush lackeys in the media, the good folks of LA will know what to do with such bungling, partisan fools.

J,

"middle aged mid-level hospital administrator"

I guess I missed that part as I am guilty of bliping over some of the fluff in her posts. If so my bad.
However I swear by her seeming level of education and arrogance the scent of the "certainty of youth" was strong.

Having survived cancer and West Nile in a 3 year period I can also see the resemblence to some of the "administrators" I had to deal with. Small, narrow, bureaucratic minds that cant or wont think outside their box.

About university professors, I worked at a university a while and apart from their area of expertise I was suprised at how many of these "educated" people couldnt find their way out of an open paper bag. Kinda like the actors, who never even got a degree, that believe they should be listened to by virtue of their popularity.

I'm not going to bother with Katie anymore...too much like kicking a puppy. I just couldnt resist fisking her.

Kcorn, dont forget a key LLL defense is the power of projection and cognitive dissonance. Its their security blanket of self approval.

Another thought.

After seeing the US struggling, at city, state and country level, to recover from this disaster, and recognising the huge amount of money it is going to take to remedy the situation along the gulf coast, I reckon that the USA has good grounds for backing away from some of its many charitable commitments around the world, and instead concentrating on its own people for a few years.

I’m sure generous Arab, Asia and liberal European nations would be willing to step in and fill the gap left by America. (Yeah, right!)

Maybe, after a year or two, the world would appreciate the huge contribution America makes to the world, and would stop moaning and complaining, every chance they got, about the US and Americans.

Just a little flavour of what America does for the world: the US provides 80% of all food aid, has the largest AIDS programmes around the world, is the largest contributor to the WTO, is today and has always been the largest financial contributor to the (corrupt) United Nations system, covers one third of the cost of all peacekeeping operations, makes substantial voluntary contributions to humanitarian agencies such as the UNHCR, ICRC, IOM, etc., etc, etc.-

Thank you America.

US contribution to the world

I'm not American and I'm no fan of Bush, but I do have a decent grasp of the USA's federal system. After reading this whole exchange and the informative posts explaining the local state responsibilties, I can only conclude that Katie is so determined to blame Bush and the Federal Government that she refuses to let the facts get in the way.

Ivor,

Thanks for the intellectual honesty. All most Americans want is just a fair shake. Are we perfect...no way. Do we make mistakes..you bet.

This Bush=Hitler, war for oil, Haliburton, etc crap is so over the top that it creates a polarization that kills healthy and honest debate.
If Bush and America was anything remotely close to Hitler/Nazis do you think for a minute that France would still exist? I have friends still living in Europe and the way America is generally portrayed is ludicrous.

I say look a the attitude, tone, facts, etc presented by the "right wingers" and compare it with the emotional invective from the left. This former Democrat did and was overwhelmingly disappointed by the quality and lack of thought from my now ex-party.

I voted for Bush but by no means agree with every position. I could say the same about every politician I ever voted for and I imagine most reasonable people would agree.

Katie, sadly, is representitive of, I'm guessing, 20-30% of Americans. An example of what a PC, feel good, everybodys a winner, 30 minute TV solution to life, television educated Democrat has become.

One thing I have noticed...Repubs tend to see Libs as merely ignorant and self deluded. If educated they might question their ideas. Liberals tend to see Repubs as evil/Nazi/zealot/stupid(which is different from ignorant)/redneck/cowboys/....see the difference.

Off Topic: I truly believe we(western culture)are in a good old fashioned religious war with a large part of Islam. Its not PC to say it though. Why people refuse to accept this is not hard to understand. It has many unpleasent ramifications. 75 years ago when the world was a much larger place western culture could afford and did ignore the fundemental issues of a 7th century culture. When that culture imposes its misogyny, violence and intolerance on their neighbors it must be confronted regardless of our generally live and let live nature. Islam desperately needs a reformation by consenses ideally by force if necessary.

Heck make it even simpler. If it is an all or nothing struggle for a Caliphate as so many Islamic leaders have said over and over for many years, who do you want to win. Them or us. There is a resaon the winners write the history books. Right or wrong I dont want my grandchildren growing up in an Islamic world goverened by Sharia law and I will support my Gov. in doing ANYTHING to prevent it.

OT request: could someone break up the long url that John in London put in his comments? It's breaking the page layout.

The Governor asked Bush for everything he had; but Bush wasn't home:

http://tinyurl.com/apogr

I don't know how to make a link. You can copy it and paste it.

Sorry to be a downer, but I lived in New Orleans for just about 10 years and Nagin is a lead pipe cinch to be re-elected in a landslide. Here's the Washington Post quoting a constituent:

GC

To be fair to Katie the quality of her arguments were head and shoulders above the general level of discussion I've been subjected to in Nor Cal over the last few years. She had the makings of several good points but they were lost in an inevitable slide into the predicable “blame everything on the Republicans/Bush” slogans - no matter how muted.

And although it was not obvious in this particular thread, it was very obvious in another Slugger thread a few days ago that her anger at the situation in NO was driven by a very strong and very genuine compassion for the victims of the disaster, and not just pure partisan point scoring. So I fully respect and admire the motivation for her anger, yet have to respectfully disagree completely with her interpretation of why the fiasco happened and who was responsible for it.

I think ultimately we all have the same goal, to identify and punish those responsible for the horrible deaths of so many helpless people, and to make sure it does not happen again. And you do that by cutting through all the partisan political rhetoric, identifying with whom the ultimate constitutional and statutory responsibly lay, and then throw the book at those who failed in their legal obligations.

If you dont deal with it at this level, at the purely legal level, then the guilty will escape punishment and at some time in the future it will happen again. Thousands more of the old, sick and disabled will die during a natural disaster in terrible suffering due to the negligence and incompetence of elected officials.

Those responsible must be held accountable.

Katie said: "Your arguments are very selective, all of you on the right, this is the most talking point driven "Blame Game" I have ever seen come out of you people." Put THIS in your pipe and smoke it, Katie.

Police in Suburbs Blocked Evacuees, Witnesses Report

By GARDINER HARRIS (NY Times)

Published: September 10, 2005

Police agencies to the south of New Orleans were so fearful of the crowds trying to leave the city after Hurricane Katrina that they sealed a crucial bridge over the Mississippi River and turned back hundreds of desperate evacuees, two paramedics who were in the crowd said.

The paramedics and two other witnesses said officers sometimes shot guns over the heads of fleeing people, who, instead of complying immediately with orders to leave the bridge, pleaded to be let through, the paramedics and two other witnesses said. The witnesses said they had been told by the New Orleans police to cross that same bridge because buses were waiting for them there.

Instead, a suburban police officer angrily ordered about 200 people to abandon an encampment between the highways near the bridge. The officer then confiscated their food and water, the four witnesses said. The incidents took place in the first days after the storm last week, they said.NOW try and convince me that local and state authorities didn't f**k up.

Talking points, my great aunt Edna's ass.

Sorry about that long URL.

The BBC and other channels here in Britain showed lots of footage about people trapped at the Convention Centre and the Superdome. Distressing footage.

We know (even though the BBC has never told us) that they should not have been there in the first place. They should have been bussed out, as per the SPECIFIC emergency plans of the city and the state. The Department of Transportation statistics show that there are 21,000 buses in the state of Louisiana. Going way beyond the number of buses in NO itself, where there had been many hundreds. Maybe as many as 2000.

But there was also clear access over the bridge from where those thousands of people were suffering, day after day.

But even after several days of the distress in extreme heat of all those thousands of people, they were being BLOCKED from simply walking over the freeway bridge to the safe parish on the other side. The local police were sending people back. Threatening them.

When is the BBC going to run the real story ? That there was a gross lack of control by the Louisiana Governor and her people - they were and still are the legal power. They had the jurisdiction, not FEMA. And they abused it. They would not let the people escape - nor would they escort the Red Cross and Salvation Army in with food, water and sanitary supplies.

I believe that the Mayor of NO and the Governor are going to be facing legal suits for the deaths the local actions or inactions caused. Especially the deaths in the hospitals and the nursing homes. And suits for heavy damages from many of those thousands of people trapped at the Superdome and the Convention Centre.

Here is further mention of the police blocking the safe side of the freeway bridge :

http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench/news/2748

And here is some harrowing video from the bridge and from the the Convention Centre just below, run by Fox but posted at a leftwing blogsite :

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Hannity-Colmes-Smith-Rivera-freak-in-NO.wmv

J McConnell,

Agreed, she does present herself better than the run of the mill DU'er however wrong I believe her conclusions to be. It was the usual Lib arrogance and faux superiority BS that ruined it.

Compassion is all well and good, but it doesn't trump the facts. We all - right, left, and center - felt compassion and anguish for those who suffered . Yes, right, left, and center. Given the opportunity, we would all have rescued them instantly. But what we didn't do, a certain group of us at least, is we didn't immediately use the suffering of those thousands of unfortunate people as an excuse to blame President Bush without knowing the facts. And the more the actual facts have come out the more that it seems clear huge mistakes were made by city and state officials that put those people in jeopardy in the first place. That's not to say the Federals were blameless. But any blame that is placed has to be in proportion to their actual responsibilities, in accordance with the legal situation binding each party, federal, state and local. It can't be based on wishful thinking or a misunderstanding of the Constitution.

One point which Katie brought up several times and no-one seems to have addressed yet is Blanco's defense that she asked for "everything you got" and it didn't arrive.

Anyone with any grasp of organizing a major relief effort would know that's a useless request. She's the one supposed to be coordinating the relief effort. She should be making requests like "We need x amount of troops at y to do z" or "we need all the helicopters you can give us here doing this." Otherwise you're just adding to the anarchy.

Good point, Ivor. One I had noted to myself, as well. "Everything you've got" is meaningless. The federal government is never going to give one state everything its got. It has other ongoing responsibilities in 50 other states, and more to the point, most of what "its got" would be useless in the situation. It was another failure of leadership at the state level. They needed to say what they needed, and in what numbers and for what purpose, as you pointed out.

The fact that Governor Blanco was requesting "everything" the feds had also puts to a lie the claim that when the disaster was "federalized" that meant the responsibility moved from state control to federal control. Why would she be requesting anything from the feds if the feds had taken over responsibility and control? Wouldn't they be requesting assets from themselves? They would have been telling her what to do. Not the other way around.

Hey Katie,

Here's some more smoke for your pipe, and I quote....

"Post Gazette

Jack Kelly: No shame

The federal response to Katrina was not as portrayed

It is settled wisdom among journalists that the federal response to the devastation wrought by Hurricane Katrina was unconscionably slow.



"Mr. Bush's performance last week will rank as one of the worst ever during a dire national emergency," wrote New York Times columnist Bob Herbert in a somewhat more strident expression of the conventional wisdom.

But the conventional wisdom is the opposite of the truth.

Jason van Steenwyk is a Florida Army National Guardsman who has been mobilized six times for hurricane relief. He notes that:

"The federal government pretty much met its standard time lines, but the volume of support provided during the 72-96 hour was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne."

For instance, it took five days for National Guard troops to arrive in strength on the scene in Homestead, Fla. after Hurricane Andrew hit in 2002. But after Katrina, there was a significant National Guard presence in the afflicted region in three.

Journalists who are long on opinions and short on knowledge have no idea what is involved in moving hundreds of tons of relief supplies into an area the size of England in which power lines are down, telecommunications are out, no gasoline is available, bridges are damaged, roads and airports are covered with debris, and apparently have little interest in finding out.

So they libel as a "national disgrace" the most monumental and successful disaster relief operation in world history.

....snip....

Journalists complain that it took a whole week to do this. A former Air Force logistics officer had some words of advice for us in the Fourth Estate on his blog, Moltenthought:

"We do not yet have teleporter or replicator technology like you saw on 'Star Trek' in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your worthless communications degree while the grown-ups actually engaged in the recovery effort were studying engineering.

"The United States military can wipe out the Taliban and the Iraqi Republican Guard far more swiftly than they can bring 3 million Swanson dinners to an underwater city through an area the size of Great Britain which has no power, no working ports or airports, and a devastated and impassable road network.

"You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets (in the affected areas) since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region.

"No amount of yelling, crying and mustering of moral indignation will change any of the facts above.""

Folks,

I think Katie may have bravely run away. Oh well. I toungue in cheek see her sitting in a darkened room with her fingers in her ears rocking back and forth repeating...The right is evil...The right is evil....Rove...Haliburton...Chimpy.. oh my

Folks,

I think Katie may have bravely run away. Oh well. I toungue in cheek see her sitting in a darkened room with her fingers in her ears rocking back and forth repeating...The right is evil...The right is evil....Rove...Haliburton...Chimpy.. oh my

Can't do trackback, but I linked it.

Sorry for the double post...site said it timed out.

As someone above mentioned, though, you do have to give Katie credit for standing in and making an argument. She didn't rely solely on name calling and demonization. It led to lots of good points coming out to refute her initial contentions. Hopefully, she learned something that she'll carry with her about how the US government/state government relationship works.

fustian: "Sorry to be a downer, but I lived in New Orleans for just about 10 years and Nagin is a lead pipe cinch to be re-elected in a landslide."

That's a near certainty... if things remain the way they were before the flooding.

However, hundreds of the evacuees, most of them from among the poor, are saying they have nothing to return to, and aren't going back to NO. This could change the demographics of the city, given that the people who ARE returning and have already started cleanup are entrepreneurs, who have a tendency to be Republicans.

Nagin is "dead in the water". In his own swamp of failure.

The only reason he won't resign now is that it would lay him even more wide open to civil suits.

The least he could do is keep his mouth shut. I expect his lawyers are advising him to do exactly that.

He is now in a CYA fix. He will stay silent, there will be no more of his histrionics.

He knows he cannot blame FEMA as a cop-out. He is astute enough to know that won't work. His only cop-out is to shovel blame on the Governor.

GC, you are a big weenie.

Just to let y'all know, the Mayor of Biloxi
(Thats In a whole 'nother state, or little country according to your far superior view of what constitutes the decalaration of emergency and purposeful ignorance of actual and many times precedented FEMA policy)

safely beyond the evil clutches of the supreme shadow leader Kathleen Blanco

Publicly stated today that FEMA help came too little too late. Apparently they are a tad dismayed that there is a giant swath of biloxi who after 2 weeks has yet to see fema relief, other than corpse removal. Luckily the salvation army is feeding them, otherwise, they'd be dyin by now too. BIloxi is one of more populated areas in missippis Katrina zone and there seem not to be any FEMA outpost set up yet. Perhaps they are photo oping with dubya. Meanwhile, the people wait for fema relief.

Micheal Brown resigned today, I'm sure it was because he was "Doin a great Job" As usual, the "Accountability administration" has cut loose and distanced itself from its mistakes. Rather than admit to them. Why should they when there are so many apologists willing ignore loss of life and deliberately twist facts in order to save the culture of life from facing what it has become.

Clearly your view of the government is every man for himself, my question to you is why have a government at all? Surely we could save a whole lot 'o money in wars on terror where we rarely catch any terrorists, especially not the ones responsible for blowing up our most significant landmarks.

And we would never have to have these stupid "Tax and spend liberal/Borrow and spend more conservative" fights either.

And for all the good fema has done us these days, the billions we have paid for it are obviously a waste.

maybe with all the money we save, employers will voluntarily raise wages for the absolute lowest paying grunt jobs in society more than every 8 years, and people could afford some bootstraps to pull themselves up by. Or at least a cab ride out of a hurricanes path. New orleans tax base just was not big enough for a proper evacuation, their leaders could have done more and should have, but its like having 5 dollars and and wanting to buy a Rolex watch, it can't be done. you can't even afford a timex, so you have to settle for the watch that comes free with your happy meal.

And yes, I took a break from responding to this thread. Frankly you folks kinda scare me. no offense.

And yes also, I do generally resort to mean arguing when I am totally outnumbered by neocon-zombie-apologist-blame-the-dems-for-everything-while-pretending-cons-deserve-blame- for-nothing, who are being no more nice to me than I them. Since there are many many more of you, than I have of me, I don't really feel bad. sorry.

Now if you'll excuse me the lonely pathetic life of a middle aged hospital administrator entails many hours of dark-sitting daily, or wait, maybe as a 25 yr old college educated snob, I should be running off to a wine tasting or something, I can practice my arrogance and looking down on people there.... Hmmmm.

And I am getting a little sick of the name calling and your snobbery (I just don't think I'm the only bitchy, self serving smugly superior one here, am I) so I will not respond to this thread anymore.

Nice talkin to yall.

GC, you are a big weenie.

Just to let y'all know, the Mayor of Biloxi
(Thats In a whole 'nother state, or little country according to your far superior view of what constitutes the decalaration of emergency and purposeful ignorance of actual and many times precedented FEMA policy)

safely beyond the evil clutches of the supreme shadow leader Kathleen Blanco

Publicly stated today that FEMA help came too little too late. Apparently they are a tad dismayed that there is a giant swath of biloxi who after 2 weeks has yet to see fema relief, other than corpse removal. Luckily the salvation army is feeding them, otherwise, they'd be dyin by now too. BIloxi is one of more populated areas in missippis Katrina zone and there seem not to be any FEMA outpost set up yet. Perhaps they are photo oping with dubya. Meanwhile, the people wait for fema relief.

Micheal Brown resigned today, I'm sure it was because he was "Doin a great Job" As usual, the "Accountability administration" has cut loose and distanced itself from its mistakes. Rather than admit to them. Why should they when there are so many apologists willing ignore loss of life and deliberately twist facts in order to save the culture of life from facing what it has become.

Clearly your view of the government is every man for himself, my question to you is why have a government at all? Surely we could save a whole lot 'o money in wars on terror where we rarely catch any terrorists, especially not the ones responsible for blowing up our most significant landmarks.

And we would never have to have these stupid "Tax and spend liberal/Borrow and spend more conservative" fights either.

And for all the good fema has done us these days, the billions we have paid for it are obviously a waste.

maybe with all the money we save, employers will voluntarily raise wages for the absolute lowest paying grunt jobs in society more than every 8 years, and people could afford some bootstraps to pull themselves up by. Or at least a cab ride out of a hurricanes path. New orleans tax base just was not big enough for a proper evacuation, their leaders could have done more and should have, but its like having 5 dollars and and wanting to buy a Rolex watch, it can't be done. you can't even afford a timex, so you have to settle for the watch that comes free with your happy meal.

And yes, I took a break from responding to this thread. Frankly you folks kinda scare me. no offense.

And yes also, I do generally resort to mean arguing when I am totally outnumbered by neocon-zombie-apologist-blame-the-dems-for-everything-while-pretending-cons-deserve-blame- for-nothing, who are being no more nice to me than I them. Since there are many many more of you, than I have of me, I don't really feel bad. sorry.

Now if you'll excuse me the lonely pathetic life of a middle aged hospital administrator entails many hours of dark-sitting daily, or wait, maybe as a 25 yr old college educated snob, I should be running off to a wine tasting or something, I can practice my arrogance and looking down on people there.... Hmmmm.

And I am getting a little sick of the name calling and your snobbery (I just don't think I'm the only bitchy, self serving smugly superior one here, am I) so I will not respond to this thread anymore.

Nice talkin to yall.

Katie

Once again you get a fundamental point wrong.

FEMA operates through designated agents. For services like providing food and shelter, the designated agents are the American Red Cross and the Salvation Army. So if the SA was in Biloxi, that means there was FEMA support being provided.

Likewise if there were Corps of Engineers people eg helping with emergency power, that means there was FEMA support.

You remain ignorant of the basic and defined procedures for responses to emergencies. Stop preaching and screeching, and try learning.

Katie

So how about answering some of the points of this particular Democrat voting liberal who by choice lives in cities that vote 60% - 70%+ Democrat?

Or is anyone who disagrees with you automatically a neocon-zombie?

One of the wonderful ironies of the leftist-progressives in the US at the moment is that for a movement that has always made a such a big deal out of 'dissent' and 'independent thinking' is now the movement of rigid conformity to simplistic slogans, a complete retreat from the realities of political responsibility, and ferocious ad-hominems on anyone who disagrees with them.

I'm just waiting for all those self-indulgent '68'ers to disappear from the political stage , for the great political dinosaurs to die off, so that the great US liberal tradition which has had so many great political achievements over the years can return to it original tradition of providing a responsible and pragmatic alternative to how civil society can be run.

The new deal Democratic party of 1930 to 1960 was a huge success by recognizing the reality of how the political system works and how one goes about changing it. The 'civil rights' Democratic party of the last 40 years has been a monumental failure because of it complete retreat from reality, it unwillingness to change failed policies, and by this stage its profoundly reactionary politics.

George Bush did not invent the concept of political appointees to run Federal Agencies. George Bush did not write the Stafford Act that states FEMA's legal responsibilities. George Bush did not create the profoundly corrupt Democratic party machine in La, and NO. George Bush was not responsible for NO abandoning its disaster plan. George Bush was not responsible for how the state government of La implemented (or failed to implement) its disaster plan. George Bush was not responsible for NO and La electing incompetent officials, or for that matter, the state of Al and Miss electing fairly competent ones.

George Bush as president is responsible for many many thing but he has almost no legal or constitutional responsibility for any of the elements that went into creating the fiasco in NO.

So I supposes just stating the legal responsibilities of various elected officials at the state, local and Federal level, as clearly designated in law, makes me brain-washed?

JMcConnell

Thanks for not being vicious.

In answer to your question, New Orleans is kind of the "Exception that proves the rule" as it were, the needs of NO were far greater than the resources available to them and both NO officials and FEMA were aware of this, that is why FEMA took an active planning role in that particular cities disaster preparedness, as opposed to the admistrative role it it takes in most cities. In most of the country for instance, safety plans are prepared by states, and monitored by FEMA, whereas in NO, FEMA Federally studied and prepared for this. FEMAS own calculations estimated that HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS would be left inside NO and tens of thousands would die. Because they apparently knew in studying it that evacuation of the 35th biggest city in the US would prove extremely difficult. Perhaps they were aware than even though evacuation could have been done, it would be far too expensive for local budgets. And needed at least 72 hours notice. and generally 48 is all we get.

Now luckily the evacuation itself actually went better than FEMAS estimates or we'd be looking at a MUCH higher death toll than we are. The pretend hurricane "Pam" was a weaker 'caine than Katrina so clearly it could have been MUCH MUCH worse.

LA officials DID make arrangements for other states to send in resources before the storm, Because they were aware that 1/3 of thier own NG was in Iraq, along with half of thier equipment. NM national guard could have had a presense within 12 hours of landfall, they were notified, packed, prepared and ready to go. They just had to wait for FEMA. the same is true for nat guard in a couple of other states. they are in the region, very nearly "Preplaced" as it were. BY LA officials.There were a group of california firefighters ready to hop on a plane on monday, they had a large amount of working communications equipment with them, they were told that FEMA would not pay for a plane and that they had to take a bus, chartering and driving that bus added days to a trip that could have taken Hours. And considerably changed the on ground dynamics. When they got there they were not sent in to NO right away. Minnesote had hundreds of working radios, spare batteries and generators to charge them ready to be helicoptored in. FEMA did not approve the expense. FEMAS own medical teams were not allowed in the city by FEMA, and truckloads of Ice and provisions were turned away by FEMA, in addition to the redcross food that NO officials turned away, in time we may find that they turned it away under FEMA orders, but even if that was a local decision, All of NOLAS Resources were unreachable. And NOLA could not have protected the red cross volunteers.

From what I can see LA disaster plan was largely just to contain the citizens as safely as they could until federal help could arrive. There are other US cities who rely on this too, due to lack of budget. And FEMA has approved and known of this. Unfortunately with no working communications equipment for days, that did not work at all. And even more unfortunately, the flood destroyed much of the available food and water in the city, leaving the need for outside help more vital. Even the NO residents who had prepared survival kits, and stocked up on food and water for the most part lost them in the flood. This is a problem that earthquake preparedness doesn't run into as much. And a problem that the rest of the region did not wncounter as much, the storm surge receeded quickly elsewhere, and some provisions could be salvaged.

Aid to states governments has declined rapidly under the bush admin, and NO needed federal help, the feds knew this. And frankly, with louisianas corruption records, as a us taxpayer, I'd rather that for a few years at least, the feds did have control of thier emergency monies, if only the feds could be trusted even a little bit.

But even with all the bungling on NO part (and there was some) we have to remember that they did have the foresight to operate a triple redundant communications plan, but when all three forms of communications failed, they were basically screwed. And thier plans went out the window. While NO was left in the dark, FEMA was never handicapped in that manner.

Both the federal and state government basically relied on TV to be thier eyes and ears, because news just was not forthcoming from the city. Because it was underwater and unreachable.

NO police fire, EMS and national guard did a great job with no assets. as did the majority of the hospitals. All those people worked basically a seven day shift without a break. I know republicans are sneering at the police because they had a couple of hundred deserters and that pisses me off. would you all stay in your jobs for a 7 day shift that got more chaotic and dangerous as those days went on? Some of you would, many of you would not. Hospitals were forced to care for intensive care patients with no power at all. After about the third or fourth day, there was not even generator power left. And all along NO rescue crews just gave them more and more patients.

Can you not see that there was a GIANT disconnect betwwen what FEMA promised and actual relief efforts? Lets hold NOLA responsible for the evacuations, (evacuations that actually exceeded FEMAS estimates by the way) but we HAVE TO hold FEMA responsible for the botched rescue. If we do not it will happen again.

And to this day, FEMA is putting evacuees on airplanes and not telling them where they are being flown. Does that seem right to you? In an emergency, I would probably fly anywhere that I was told for my safety, but I think I really would be upset if I was not told where, in advance.

John in London, sally is not FEMA, they may have been dispatched by fema, but FEMA needs to come in and let the biloxi residents know when and how they can start to rebuild, and what help is available to them.

John in London, sally is not FEMA, they may have been dispatched by fema, but FEMA needs to come in and let the biloxi residents know when and how they can start to rebuild, and what help is available to them.

Besides John in London, in New Orleans, food and humanitarian relief are the governors responsibility, why are they femas triumph in the other states?

"GC, you are a big weenie."

Gosh, that hurts. I'm offended....no not really.
Katie would you be so kind as to elighten me on my "weenie" status. All I did was poke a little fun at you. Or is it the fact that you have been incapable of addressing 90% of my exposure as to the shallow nature of your posts.

I actually do respect the fact, however wrong I may believe you to be, that you do try to present a thought out position. But you tend to spoil it with the usual LLL BS like "Perhaps they are photo oping with dubya". Dont you realize that this kind of comment is part of what totally undermines your position(other than a shakey understanding of government and raging BDS).

You say: "Micheal Brown resigned today, I'm sure it was because he was "Doin a great Job" As usual, the "Accountability administration" has cut loose and distanced itself from its mistakes. Rather than admit to them."

Agreed, Brown needed firing. Bush was stupid to say what he said. Feel better now? Once again your LLL bent betrays you. On what planet is firing the guy publically distancing and not admitting. Only in LLL land would it be spun that way. First the you complain about him, then you complain about his public firing. Your undeniable BDS makes Bush guilty no matter what he does. Again you make yourself irrelevant by the shallowness of your analysis.

"Clearly your view of the government is every man for himself"

Quote one comment that says that....sound of crickets. chirp chirp

"wars on terror where we rarely catch any terrorists"

If you would get you info from something other than CBS, DU, DailyKos, CNN then you might realize that half of AlQada(sp?) top echelon has be killed or caught. Bin Hiden may already be dead...god willing. Emotion is not a substitute for facts.

"Tax and spend liberal/Borrow and spend more conservative"

I agree the moneies being spent by both parties on pork is ridiculous.

"And for all the good fema has done us these days, the billions we have paid for it are obviously a waste."

Baby with the bathwater approach. Reminds me of the stupid arguement that if we dont take out every dictatorship at the same time we have no moral authority to take out any. Simplistic thinking at its best.

"so you have to settle for the watch that comes free with your happy meal."

Which by the way keeps as good time as the rolex.
Want something better, get off your ass, work at a getting a skill and get a job.

"Frankly you folks kinda scare me."

Why ? Really I'm serious here. Why be scared of a mostly civil discussion. Is it the differing ideas that you are uncomfortable with? The rumour of mind control rays coming through your computer are not true...just a joke dont get upset. Or is it the tired canard that were EEvillll.

"neocon-zombie-apologist-blame-the-dems-for-everything
-while-pretending-cons-deserve-blame- for-nothing, who are being no more nice to me than I them. Since there are many many more of you, than I have of me, I don't really feel bad. sorry."

Once again you resort to over-the-top LLL BS. Show me one quote where anybody said the problem was all one side or another. I'm certainly not asking you to be sorry...I'm a big boy and can take it. In your first post to me you called me a fool...I didnt start this you did, later you called all of us fools I even went to the trouble to consolidate all of your nonsense in 1 post or did that slip your mind.. Cue Church Lady...How Conveeeenient. Once again you undermine your position with absolutes, exaggeration and a complete inability to back up your immature invective. Once again typical LLL.

"And I am getting a little sick of the name calling and your snobbery (I just don't think I'm the only bitchy, self serving smugly superior one here, am I) so I will not respond to this thread anymore."

Re: previous comment. Katie your the one that started calling names giving folks that "hon and darlin" crap and if were are all smug, including you, whats the problem other than it detracts from rational discussion.

"Thanks for not being vicious."

Once again please quote the "vicious" comments.

You consistantly ignore your own inconsistancy, refuse to address legitimate question posed to you, accuse people of statements they HAVE NOT MADE, your constant emotional embellishment reminds me of some 15 yo girl or an LLL who knows her world view is badly losing. I must be frightening for liberals, so used to being able to dominate the discussion in the media, to see folks like me finally standing up to the lunacy on the left now that the internet has given us a powerful voice. Get us to it...were not going away...we are not fazed by baseless accusation(racist, fascist, neocon etc), waving arms, shrill tirades.
Like I said before...get use to losing elections.

Suprise me Katie...dont act like a mindless LLL, address some of the points made. If you need help/dont have the time I'll even offer to consolidate the ones you never responded to in one post. I realize in the big scheme of things this thread means nothing and I generally dont bother discussing issues with the LLL anymore. Its to much like trying to give hard won lessons in life to a teenager but in your case I'll make an exception. The offer is genuine but please, lay off the LLL BS and I'll respond like an adult as well.

And if you never read this...oh well I feel better.

OT thought about the displaced folks. Since there is a group of posters here right now that are well spoken. Why not reopen some of the closed military bases and house them there for now. The infrastructure exists (homes, kitchens, etc) and security for the ones who cant behave would be simpler. Then start a hiring process of these people to go back and help rebuild their town. Seems like a win win. Any thoughts ???

Katie

The deaths in the nursing homes and the hospitals are the key. It was NOT the duty of FEMA to organise and support the evacuation of the elderly and the ill. That was the responsibility of NO itself as First Responder under its own so-called emergency plan. Heck, the Mayor even failed to declare mandatory evacuation with the required amount of notice, even after he had been given all the necessary warning by the Hurricane Centre, and even after urgings by Bush.

It was down to the Mayor with support of the Governor to organise timely evacuation - especially for the most vulnerable.

And that is what they will be sued for. There can be no such suit against FEMA, because it was not responsible for the evacuation.

You can duck and weave all you like, but you will not escape from the basic legal facts of where responibilities for the most dire events lie. They all stem from the failure to evacuate.

The courts will nail this.

Full disclosure. I'm a Texan, a Republican, a Bush supporter, and a Catholic to boot. Something for everyone to hate. In North Tx here, we've taken in 50,000 evacuees. Into our homes, churches, stadiums, anywhere there's space. The out pouring of help to our brothers and sisters has been outstanding. Our church has decided that this is the greatest test of "love thy neighbor" that we'll ever see, and we're goin' after it. It's a 3 to 5 year undertaking. That's what it's about here, stranger helping stranger in time of need. Sorry about the lack of erudition or bon mot, but we don't have time for that here.

"John in London, sally is not FEMA, they may have been dispatched by fema, but FEMA needs to come in and let the biloxi residents know when and how they can start to rebuild, and what help is available to them."

No, that's not FEMA's job. Except the last part. It's not FEMA's job to come in and tell Biloxi residents when they can do anything. Biloxi is the responsibility of Biloxi city officials and it's their job to run their city. They'll determine when and how people can rebuild, they'll issue permits, etc. FEMA can tell those people affected what federal help is available to them, process the federal paperwork, and expedite the federal end of things but it is not their responsibility to run Biloxi or any other city.

I think you're still having trouble with that basic concept, Katie. The U.S. government, and FEMA especially, is not an executive authority on state territory. It's a federal agency that aids state and local authorities with disaster assistance. It's not the job of FEMA to run local governments.

Hi all, just to let you know that maybe, (and I'm speculating) President Bushes public responsibility taking today means that maybe, just maybe, Kathleen Blanco's WRITTEN and multiple ORAL requests actually did legally constitute permission for FEMA to begin Dispatching Federal help in a disaster that COULD NOT HAVE BEEN MANAGED BY NOLAS RESOURCES ALONE. And maybe, just maybe, those written and oral requests for help were not the refusal of assistance and blatant incompetence that you are portraying.

And for the record, most hospitals in most cities are not evacuated immediately in any disaster, due to the fact that they are generally well built enough to stay standing in a weather emergency and well enough equipped to have emergency power generated for 3-4 days, until help can be given in an orderly manner. NO hospitals did have generator power for that long. And the hospitals seem to have survived without a lot of structural damage. They are also kept open so that help can be given to people injured in the crises. All over this country and probably in Europe too.

As for the nursing home, I believe that is private property, and responsible for its own evacuation plan, I am also sure that the states board of emergency management has seen and approved of thier evac procedures, those procedures were clearly not followed, which is why the couple that owns the nursing home was charged today with negligent homicide, as they should have been.

And as for the lack of evacuation, I have checked with my own state, and we ourselves have a certain amount of "Containment" procedures as well, as do most american cities, keeping people localized and together makes thier eventual rescue easier, assuming that they will eventually be rescued.

Once disaster protocols in NO were begun, the cities were locked down, and when communications were severed, there was no way to inform the police and Nat guard which people and services were to be let in. That is why they needed federal help to bring in communications. And supplies.

And to the person who said that prepositioning is not possible because you cannot put supplies in the path of a hurrican, pre positioning means to put supplies at the ready just OUTSIDE the affected area, making it easier to put relief in motion when immediate danger has passed.

Again I am not completely letting Blanco off the hook, but I stand by my beleif that FEMA are the ones who COMPLETELY DROPPED THE BALL. And I am not blaming fema, when you put incompetent people in positions of power, incompetence id the only result you can expect.

Any candidates amongst for Slugger's North American correspondent - even for a shortish while? It's been great having people on the ground you have a proper grip on the circumstances.

Drop me a line if you are interested?

Katie

No, you are still ducking the issue. Mandatory evacuation was declared later than it should have been - the Mayor's responsibility, not FEMA's.

The Mayor then failed to use all those buses to assist the evacuation. Just look at the photos - there are HUNDREDS of them. Again - not FEMA's responsibility.

Even if the idea of containment of people at the Superdome and the Convention Centre is pursued, which is questionable when there was so much transport available to get people away from the risk area, it was the Mayor and Governor not FEMA who failed to provide adequate control and protection by the police and the National Guard at those sites. That was not FEMA's responsibility. FEMA has no jurisdiction whatsoever on law enforcement - even now, the federal troops have nil power to act. Only the police and the Nationl Guard can act on law enforcement.

And it is clear that neither containment site had been adequately provided with water, food and especially sanitation arrangements. The Mayor's responsibility, not FEMA's.

Later in the week, Wednesday through Friday, it was the Governor who prevented the Red Cross nd the Salvation Army as FEMA's agents to reprovision with water, food and sanitation supplies. FEMA had not "dropped the ball" as you put it - it ws the Governor who blocked assistance under FEMA's aegis being taken to all those tens of thousands of people. Can youu not believe the evidence of your own eyes ? Have you read the ARC website report ?

It was a Democratic sheriff in Granta County who prevented people even walking across the freeway bridge away from the Convention Centre and the Superdome. That was on LIVE TV. The Governor should have intervened, if necesary providing National Guard protection for those who wanted to leave. The whole agony was thus prolonged by the Governor - not FEMA. Neither FEMA nor the President had any jurisdiction on this.

You mention breakdown of commuunications. The main breakdown was the New Orleans police central transmitter. They had failed to make adequate contingency arrangements - surely an obvious measure. The Mayor's responsibility, not FEMA's.

President Bush has stated again that there were failings at ALL levels of government. But the starkest failings clearly started with the Mayor and the Governor. Their responsibilities were clear - and they dropped the ball. After that much of the problems were in clearing up the chaos they had caused - and which the Governor then prolonged.

Throughout, the only EXCECUTIVE powers in New Orleans and Southern Louisiana were the Mayor and the Governor. They had control - but they acted in a confused and rattled manner.

What makes all this worse is that Louisiana and New Orleans had guzzled some $140 million - federal dollars - spent on disaster preparedness in recent years. Care to comment on how much of that was properly spent ?

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4802

Katie

Do you intend to be telling an outright lie in stating that the New Orleans hospitals had adequate emergency power ?

It is exactly the opposite, at least for the Memorial Hospital. Many or most of the 45 deaths there were due to not having air conditioning.

Can you deny that ?

Katie

Do you intend to be telling an outright lie in stating that the New Orleans hospitals had adequate emergency power ?

It is exactly the opposite, at least for the Memorial Hospital. Many or most of the 45 deaths there were due to not having air conditioning.

Can you deny that ?

Katie, I am not an expert on hospital emergency procedures, but I AM an expert on computers and power supply.

A generator that is under 20 feet of water does not function. Even if the floor is merely wet, the only safe thing to do is to turn the generator off. We had just such an experience in one of the data centers where I've worked when a water pipe burst in the same basement room where our generators were, and we had to shut down then entire emergency power system an pray the city power stayed online.

Flood water does not respect notions that a given generator belongs to a hospital or nursing home. When a large generator is on a ground or basement floor... as it must be for a fuel tanker to reach it... and the flood water is 20 feet deep, the generator can not function. Generators don't work under water.

Katie, why are you working so hard to "prove" that all of the failings were all Bush's fault?

I have a friend here at work who is a retired National Guard woman who was deployed in the Gulf War... and who is a liberal democrat who voted for Gore and for Kerry. We've been having spirited political discussions on and off, as you might guess, and she has spent the past five or so years railing about Bush and the war.

But this past week she has been railing about the news media and the "ridiculous" (her word) reporting where they are not even bothering to find out the regulations the NG perform under. Even she knows Bush had nothing to do with the situation in New Orleans. One only has to look at the flaming successes in Gulfport, Biloxi, and other Gulf Coast disaster areas to see that the problem was strictly local.

So, naturally,I asked her, "So what else is new? They've been doing this in Iraq all along..."

She was taken aback, so I showed her some of the weblogs from Iraq that I've been reading all along. She was amazed that the situation in Iraq isn't 1/10th as bad as the news media makes it out to be, and now sees for herself how the media exaggerates. I think she's starting to come around. I've got my fingers crossed :).

Maybe some day you, too, will drop those blinders of anti-Republican bigotry and see what's happening.

GC: "OT thought about the displaced folks. Since there is a group of posters here right now that are well spoken. Why not reopen some of the closed military bases and house them there for now. The infrastructure exists (homes, kitchens, etc) and security for the ones who cant behave would be simpler. Then start a hiring process of these people to go back and help rebuild their town. Seems like a win win. Any thoughts ??? "

I think that's a grand idea. Why don't we start talking it up on the US blogs and get everyone to call their Congresscritters to see if we can get this going?

OK so where would they have evacuated the residents that they had bussed out to? The astrodome was not yet an option.And would not have been had NO called TX to ask, that would involve money that TX did not have either, not federal monies. They were not available until POST disaster. Where would the residents of your city be evacuated to? Especially if for the past 5 yrs, federal aid to government had been cut in EVERY STATE. Holiday inn is not free, The next largest city, baton rouge was far too small, and also in Katrinas path. The whole of Louisiana did not have enough space available on a tiny budget. Yes it would have been great if they were put on a train and driven to holiday inns all along the mississippi to wait the storm out and let the kids swim in the pool, but that was not an option without a large block grant from the federal government. And that would have gone over like a lead balloon in congress, we all know that. The superdome, and convention center could have been perfectly orderly if the 3000 guardsmen that were in Iraq could have split up and kept order in those places. LA thought of that and pre warned NM NG so they could pick up the slack. but fema did not deploy them until late friday nite.

And Hospitals are almost never evacuated, in any city in america, they are integral parts of the emergency response system. It is assumed that generator power will be enough to meet thier needs until help can arrive. This is true not just in america, but all over the world. Many generators were flooded out however, and the hospitals were unable to radio for more, or for more diesel to fuel them, but the majority of hospital deaths occured after the fifth day, when LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS COULD NO LONGER BE POWERED. Some of them were due to air conditioning, but that too can be generator powered. I imagine it was one of the first generator tasks to be let go when it became clear that they had been basically abandoned. Thank god for the dedicated staffs that were willing to step up to the plate and do thier best even in the worst of circumstances. The LA nat guard has lots of spare generators ---in IRAQ

And believe it or not, it was not just the one communications generator failing that took communications out, NOLA is one of the FEW american cities with a TRIPLE REDUNDANT SYSTEM. ALL THREE SYSTEMS WERE TAKEN OUT BY THE STORM.
Most states only have a main and a backup system. New Orleans is better off than many cities it's size, it just could not withstand a triple whammy. Most cities would have fared much worse.

I still cannot believe so many people are so blindly accepting of this. People starved and died in the streets of the richest country in the world, because they were too poor. I know, like Marie Antoinette Bush says, it is scary. But their lives took a back seat to dubyas insistence on placing his buddies in high paying, important jobs. I am familiar enough with the infrastucture of this country and familiar enough with the funding issues to know that the only thing that most cities would have done better is to round up the registered sex offenders and sequester them somewhere where they could do no damage. And not every city would even do that. But most cities have a portable communications system that can be medevaced to another city in danger within and hour or two, all FEMA has to do is ask. Most cities have first responders that can be mobilised at breakneck speed and sent elsewhere anytime FEMA asks. National guard troops can be dispatched within 2-3 days from a neighboring state and slightly longer from further afield. Kathleen Blanco asked for these things. but did not get them.

The reality is, there are seedy poor underbellys in EVERY city in this country, and not very many of them would fare much better in a disaster of this magnitude. It is not just the poor of NO who were left behind, but the poor of our whole country. Individual states simply do not have the money as a whole to do better in thier major urban areas, that is why we have FEMA, to COMBINE THESE SERVICES, and make all 50 states safe for the money it would cost to give all the needed resources to 5-10 individual states

CUBA is better prepared for hurricanes than we are.... How pathetic is that?

Guys and Gals,

I thought there might be a little hope that Katie would recognize that what Pres. Bush did today was showing a quality no Democrat seems to posess... Leadership. Ask any coach, CEO, etc they will tell you that at the end of the day the Captain must take responsibility. Not because its all their fault but because it needs done. In Katies world Bush didnt do this so the process moves on, he did it because of Blanco's competence and CYA. Its a sad world of conspiracy and evil where no-one but her group has good intentions and no-one else is capable of seeing the "real" truth.
True she presents it better than the usual ranting moonbat but her BDS is firmly entrenched.

All one has to see is her inability to answer the many simple questions from myself and other posters. These posts point out her duplicity, inconsistancy and failure to grasp the simple order of responsibility. She is willfully ignorant and against ignorance the gods themselves strive in vain. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid Katie and enjoy the next 100 years of elections.

Mamapajama, a couple of states opened thier unused military bases, staffed and supplied them for service to thousands of evacuees, but fema decided not to utilize them after all these resources were readied. I don't really know why. It is a great Idea though.

Darn bouncing 0 key. Make that 10 years.

Elizabeth Elizabeth I'm coming Elizabeth.

I'm goin to have a heart attack. Katie thought my base idea was good.

Damn there goes my membership in the VRWC. lol

See Katie I do care.

Oh CG, I got to the Kool aid stand today, and the little girl there told me you had already beat her up and drunk it all. Its too bad, because I was very thirsty.

And yes Dubya did show some leadership today, and I applaud that. muchly. If he'd have done that two weeks ago today, we would not be in this mess.But its been 13 days, thats a lot of time for him to compose himself.

Its pretty simple, if this is the best we can do, its because we are not prioritizing. we as a country, with all our resources do not give a damn about people. that may be okay with you, but that is not okay with me.

And there ARE complaints coming from Alabama and Missisppi, but the real difference is not in local authorities, it is in the fact that the water receeded from those places. Things look a little sunnier when you are not trapped in a lake of raw sewage. That is the real reason that things did not break down as fast in those other states.

"we as a country, with all our resources do not give a damn about people."

Katie, there you go again. (In my best Regan, head rolling manner)This is your disease in a nutshell. I have managed several large projects in my life. Let me give you a clue...its profound...shit happens. No matter how well planned shit still happens. When you dont even follow the plan even more shit happens. WTF was Bush saying there were screwups 13 days ago really going to solve... NOTHING...except warm your little liberal heart that wants to believe that "this country doesnt give a damn" and bush is evil/stupid/racist. This is just like the "he read to kids for 10 whole minutes after the planes hit the tower" What the hell was he supposed to do...run around the room making fire engine sounds. Ever heard of the Secret Service?
Their the folks that told him to sit tight while they figured the situation and gathered resources.

Could we do better, you bet. Show me one major project anywhere in the world that you couldnt say that about in hindsite. Cmon tell me about one. I mean with your wealth of experience managing hundreds of people and thousands of milestones it should be easy.

Should we slap the crap out of the people who directly screwed up. You bet but not until the mess subsides and we can truly determine what happened. Remember that pesky little detail... innocent until proven guilty. I thought you Libs liked that one...oh yea except when its a repubican.

Your one hell of an armchair quarterback.

Katie, Biloxi and Gulfport were more severely damaged than New Orleans. The places were flattened. But the news media isn't hanging out there because the "sexy" story is in New Orleans. The fact that there was no one in Biloxi and Gulfport to be killed by all of those flattened buildings is because the mayors had the cities evacuated before the storm hit. And the governors called in the National Guard, as they were supposed to; both of these were the failings in New Orleans.

And whose fault is the flood in New Orleans? If the story I heard about the single Cat-5 levee being struck by a barge drifting on the water swales after the storm turns out to be true, NO ONE could have predicted that.

The point is that the National Guard and FEMA operate at the GOVERNOR's command. To even TRY to dump this on Bush is stupid in the extreme. That is precisely what my liberal NG friend was railing about this past week.

Katie: "Mamapajama, a couple of states opened thier unused military bases, staffed and supplied them for service to thousands of evacuees, but fema decided not to utilize them after all these resources were readied. I don't really know why. It is a great Idea though."

Then all the more reason to get out on the Blogosphere and shame them into doing it.

One more thought before I retire for the night:

There's been speculation in the German and British media that Mayor Nagin is regarded as a hero in New Orleans, and that he's a certainty to be re-elected.

Just a thought to drop in here: After the storm was over, Mayor Nagin and the Chief of Police went to the Superdome to check up on the people there.

As soon as they were recognized, they had to run for their lives. Those people were seriously pissed off, and knew who was responsible for their situation.

So much for New Orleans celebrating Nagin as a "hero"!

This whole thread is about Newton Emerson's brilliant article about the way the media have been misinforming us about the aftermath of Katrina. Clearly Katie is one of the most misinformed.

Here's some further calculations on the disastrous failure to use the buses in New Orleans :

http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline...ine/ 007288.html

http://junkyardblog.net/ archives..._11.html#004819

http://junkyardblog.net/ archives..._11.html#004820

and Mayor Nagin has no answers :

http://junkyardblog.net/ archives..._11.html#004809

Also, more on the Governor refusing to let the American Red Cross and the Salvation Army provide food, water and sanitation supplies to the Superdome and the Convention Centre. It gets worse - they were blocked even BEFORE the levee broke :

http://junkyardblog.net/ archives..._11.html#004814

You will see that nearly all these links are to a single website - the one that originally posted the pictures of the flooded buses, the buses that were not even moved out of the parking lots a few hundred yards to higher ground.

That single website has done a more accurate job of reporting the root causes of the New Orleans disaster than the BBC and most of the rest of the UK media.

The BBC grossly misinformed us about what happened. But they allowed plenty of ranting against Bush - and it is still going on, including the World Service. "It was all FEMA's fault, because Bush doesn't care about black people" is not too far wide of the mark in describing the thrust of the BBC's overall coverage.

NOWHERE on the BBC have I heard any dissection of the question of the unused buses and the failure to get people out of the city in what was supposed to be a mandatory evacuation. THAT is the root cause of most of the deaths and distress. And the BBC simply looks the other way.

THIS is the truth of the matter. The truth that the BBC has avoided tellng us.

http://www.nationalreview.com/ co...00509061439.asp

Here are the uncompressed links for my last post :

http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/007288.html

http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_09_11.html#004819

http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_09_11.html#004820

http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_09_11.html#004809

http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_09_11.html#004814

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/regan_preston200509061439.asp

Or just go to

juunkyardblog.net

A better source of news and FACTS than the biased BBC and its 4000 news staff.

katie

Thanks for you detailed response. Now were getting somewhere in this discussion.

My understanding is that even though FEMA were deeply involved in NO disaster planning, just like they are in the Bay Area, it is still up to those on the spot to actually execute that plan when the event happens. FEMA is not a nanny.

During normal times when large emergency response events happen in a city the city can depend on quickly getting extra resources through local, regional and state mutual response / aid arrangements. Everything runs fairly smoothly because the cities emergency response communications, command and control structures are rarely impacted by even large emergencies

Area wide natural disasters like earthquakes and hurricanes are very different. First, the emergency communications will be knocked out unless a backup communications system is in place. There was no backup in NO, just like in SF.

Second, coordinating and dispatching emergency response personnel will be difficult if not impossible because of damage to the transportation infrastructure, often just getting them physically to their designated posts will be impossible because they live outside the city.

Thirdly, no matter how well you plan unexpected things will always happen. So lots of difficult decisions have to be made quickly, and lots of seat of the pants improvisations made. This is were training and leadership come in. The planning so that everyone involved does not suffer first time shock and paralysis, and the leadership because a lot of difficult decisions have to be made immediately that would be political suicide and / or financial suicide in normal times.

I'm afraid I dont buy the excuse that NO and La was too poor to properly prepare for disaster. Yes, you can spend lots of money on emergency response infrastructure which will help alleviate the comms problems, and help pay for the prepositioning of supplies, but money will never fix the transportation problem. So it does not matter how much outside assistance is available, you still have to physically get it there from outside the zone of destruction, and that always takes days. Again you have to fall back on local preparedness, planning and execution.

And most importantly of all, money will not solve the biggest single variable in disaster response, the difference between a city surviving and a city collapsing when hit with a disaster - the quality of local leadership. Good leadership with little resources will pull a city through a disaster no matter how bad. But bad leadership, no matter how much resources you throw at the problem before hand, will always collapse into anarchy.

In the case of San Francisco it will take at least one *week* before any meaningful outside assistance can be delivered after a major natural disaster. Why? Because 3 or the 4 freeways into SF will be destroyed, and the fourth is very iffy at best. Almost all secondary routes into SF will be impassable, and the port facilities (whats left) will all be destroyed, as will the airport. That's just the way it is. So you either make the local government prepare and face up to its responsibilities, or we have a re-run of NO in SF.

Lets turn the argument around for a moment. Suppose Kerry was president, suppose DeWitt was still director of FEMA, and lets leave Blanco and Nagin in place. How would the fiasco in NO have played out differently. Would the evacuation of NO have being more successful? Would people have not been sent to the Dome and then trapped there? Would the state of La been more successful in initiating and managing the interstate mutual aid process? I think the honest answer must be no. Change the players at the Federal level and the outcome would be the same.

Now leave Bush and Brown in place and replace Blanco and Nagin and ask yourself the same question. The same outcome. I really dont think so.

I keep looking across the border to Miss and all I see is its elected officials make a far better attempt to deal with a far worse situation. And I might add, Miss *is* the poorest state in the Union and has just lost a big chunk of its state economy.

Here is an update on the nursing home deaths.

From todays N.O. Times Picayune

>
The owners of a St. Bernard Parish nursing home where 34 residents died during Hurricane Katrina were arrested Tuesday and booked with negligent homicide for allegedly failing to evacuate the home despite grave warnings about the storm's power and an offer by parish officials to send buses, state Attorney General Charles Foti said.

hyperlink

>
Echoing assertions made last week by parish officials, Foti said Mable Mangano, the home's licensed administrator, refused two evacuation buses the day before the storm. He said she also failed to call an ambulance company under contract to provide ambulances and helicopters for patients with special needs.

"They had adequate notice that the worst nightmare for the state of Louisiana was about to occur and they did nothing," he said. "Their inaction resulted in the deaths of these people."

katie

> People starved and died in the streets of the richest country in the world, because
> they were too poor.

They did not die because they were poor. They died because they expected the government to look after them and it failed to. Those who not expect the government to look after them and who got the hell out all lived. They is a moral here.

In this case the level of government with direct legal responsibility for the welfare of those who died was the local and state. When assigning blame to levels of government you start at the bottom and work up, because thats the way the US works.

Just to make you feel a little better about the United States maybe you should read up on some of the nail-curling stories of central government incompetence, negligence and mendacity by the European cradle-to-grave welfare systems.

My favorite is the 15,000 old, sick, and handicapped people who died in the heatwave in France two years ago. The died because the heatwave happened during the annual vacation, so the health minister, all the senior bureaucrats, and a large percentage of the healthcare staff were on vacation. I'm serious. Everyone in France goes on vacation at the same time. No decisions could be made without the minister or the bureaucrats, and they would not break their vacation, and even when finally after two week of horrendous death rates an emergency was finally declared not a lot could was done because the health care workers who returned early from their vacation could not double-shift because of the 35 hour week work laws. There were stories of old people being found dead in their apartments weeks later, whose deaths were unknown because their families could not be bothered to check up on them during the heatwave.

So much for the brutal uncaring United State and the civilized caring Europe...

This story sums up the venality of politicians in Louisiana and New Orleans :

http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1123495&page=1

"Amid Katrina chaos, Congressmn used National Guard to visit his home"

Comments, Katie ? Was this another Karl Rove plot ?

JMConnell, New Orleans had not one, but TWO back up communications systems. Which many larger cities do not have. So when thier main sytem was taken out by debris, theoretically there were two more, the towers of one were taken out and on the third, there was insufficient generators to charge tha batteries. Many generators were underwater, but many more were in Iraq. I do not subscribe to the "we could not handle this beacuse we are overstretched in Iraq theory", but clearly when a third of a highly populated states NG is in Iraq, and much of thier Equipment is as well, alternative loan arrangement need to be made to pick up individual states losses in the case of emergency. And I dont imagine that Blanco is the one in charge of Iraq Deployments, but ya know we could always blame her for that too.OR maybe that is Nagans fault. I am sure you blame them anyway.

And If Mississpi had flooded, and the water not receeded the result would have been the same, end of story, there ARE complaints from MS an AL, but the situation was never an immediate threat to the lives of survivors, if you did not die in the storm, your survival was never in immediate question ooutside the NO area. It is not because the white people are just much more resilient or the states svcs are better. Its because more food was salvageble, and there were never huge uncontrollable amounts of people who felt they needed to fight for any crumb they could find. It is also because there was shelter, and a sense of community that happens during a crisis where you are not overcrowded. And have enough to eat. And are not in danger of being murdered or raped.

San Fran is a different story, In the big one, peoples survival food will hardly ever be drowned in raw sewage, so three or four days is not totally ridiculous to tell people to expect, those who are not killed in the quake, will actually not be in further danger if they know enough not to camp out in a teetering structure. An earthquake, while harder to predict, is actually a safer natural disaster than a flood. But even in San Fran there still will need to be a modicum of immediate response in highly populated areas, it is much quicker to airdrop food and water for a few days than it is too begin evac right away. But believe me, the governor of any states relies on reports of those on the ground for all information on what is happening, Communications needed to be delivered, immediately after communications were lost. not 6 ot 7 days later.

And No FEMA is not a nanny, but its purpose is actually emergency management (That is why we call it FEMA) emrgency management entails actually managing an emergency, this was just not done. It became clear by 2 PM monday, when the main NO communications went out, that the cellular back up towers were down to, that means all that was left was radio, there was no way to charge radios, One of Femas first questions to blanco should have been, do you have communications? FEMA has a list of pagers all over the country that can get communications systems flown all over the country in a matter of hours. Call up the disaster planner in your city and ask em. and then give a seconds though to weather or not Governor Blanco should have known the small recources in other states, or would that maybe fall under FEMAS duty?

The only other time we have ever played the blame the governor game during a disaster is Hurricane Andrew, when FEMA was butchered by another great president, G Bush Sr. Remember? The Excuses from FEMA were exactly the same, Exactly. And the blame was meted out in the exact smae way. OOOOH Its thier fault! the governor did not cross its ts! They never even dotted and I, how can it be FEMAS fault????

James Witt WOULD have been on the ground himself, people would likely still been stuck in huge mobs in a wet filthy city for a week, but FOOD and WATER And Sanitation and extra bodies to control crowds would have found thier way into the city MUCH MORE QUICKLY. The really sick would have found themselves evaced from one of the many helipads located on hospitals throughout the cities, generators and spare fuel could and would have been delivered to all the hospitals. Every level one trauma center in the country could have been notified (they are all closely networked ya know, in case of emergency) that clean linens and medical supplies were needed. More Medical proffesionals could have and would have volunteered to relieve the staffs.

NO would have been a smelly nightmare for all those stuck in it until arrangements could be made for them, but it DID NOT HAVE TO DESCEND INTO WHAT IT DID.

I understand your points about NG being hard to deply quickly, but there was notice, and LA had the sense to start the ball rolling. There was no need for it to take 9 days from an emergency declaration to get food and communications and help into the city. It was blatant incompetence.... I'd probably be able to excuse if I did not know what could happen if a situation is handled properly. This countries urban first responders are the best I have ever seen, And could have done better. Had they been led properly.

The majority of FEMAS long term human assets have departed under the new Emasculated structure of fema, and those who have replaced them are just not experienced disaster planners. Mistakes happen, especially in disasters, but extreme fumbling incompetence is ridiculous. The guy who has replaced Brown at least has first responder experience, He led local fire response to Andrew, and was blamed by the Bush Sr Admin for his states lack of response, I do not Imagine that he, if asked would have nearly the complaints about Nolas Response that you do.

J Mconnell, by posting the horrible story of the nursing home, you have unwittingly given an example of a city disaster plan that was followed. Evacuation was offered by LA.The PRIVATE owners insisted to LA officials, and to the families of the patients that evacuation had been handled privately. They lied. They have most likely done this before and likely billed medicare several thousand dollars per patient for the costs of the supposed evacs. They have likely never been caught because they have never totally flooded out before. Is this the governors fault?

I mean seriously, you righties don't want business regulation anyway do you? If you own a business, you should be able to run it just how ya want to right?

"I mean seriously, you righties don't want business regulation anyway do you?"

Folks its time to give up. The stupidity/dishonesty of the above statement is proof. The typical LLL style of flailing. Throws out a strawman like its something someone said or thinks.

[GC, we operate on a 'play the ball' basis.. that means no personal attacks - ed Mod]

Katie I wont bother you again. No point. You and your kind are why this Democrat wont be voting that way for the forseeable future. I am not alone in feeling that way....its why your side lost and will continue to. Have a good life living in Katieland.

Fair play. Sorry, her constant over the top BS got to me. Sorry

GC, seriously, St Ritas was offered help in evacuation, they did not take it. that means thet LA officials at least tried to run a disaster plan. seriously. I am unsure how you can blame Blanco for that. Please expain. The nursing home owners were criminal, when the state offered them evacuation but they did not acceot it, or even have alternate plans for evac, they commited a horrible, murderous crime. Because they are not victims, but criminals, and murderers. Had they not been offered help, the blame would partially lie elsewhere. Those two nursing home owners commited a much more unnaceptable act than the kid with the stolen TV, but you seem not to think so. Why? Because they are a nice little old white couple?

This is america, I had a diseased tree in my front yard, It had to be taken down, the city gave me a choice, they could take it down and add 2500 dollars to my property taxes, or I could have my cousin, a landscaper and tree removal specialist do it for the family discount of 500 dollars, I chose my cousin. And had I not been offered the option of using my cousin, I would have been livid. And would have contested the tax addition. Had my cousin not been able to do this work professionally and so much cheaper, I would have just payed the city. Because I am not a criminal. But I had the option, and was aware that if I did not have the tree removed quickly, I would be personally liable for the blight when it spread to my neighbors trees. Just as the nursing home owners were aware they were on very low ground, perilously close to a levy, and should have evacuated, when the state told them to and offered them help.

"I am unsure how you can blame Blanco for that specific incident. Please expain."

Once again. Please quote where I blamed Blanco for that. Just another strawman.

"those two nursing home owners commited a much more unnaceptable act than the kid with the stolen TV, but you seem not to think so. Why? Because they are a nice little old white couple?"

Once again. Please quote where quote me...cmon just once back up your stupid LLL allegations. I think the owners should be put in a room filling with water and left there.

"Why? Because they are a nice little old white couple?"

So now I'm a racist...the last bastion of the small mind...go ahead compare me to Hitler now.

Your pathetic.

"I am unsure how you can blame Blanco for that specific incident. Please expain."

Once again. Please quote where I blamed Blanco for that. Just another strawman.

"those two nursing home owners commited a much more unnaceptable act than the kid with the stolen TV, but you seem not to think so. Why? Because they are a nice little old white couple?"

Once again. Please quote where quote me...cmon just once back up your stupid LLL allegations. I think the owners should be put in a room filling with water and left there. Wanna bet they are Democrats.

"Why? Because they are a nice little old white couple?"

So now I'm a racist...the last bastion of the small mind...go ahead compare me to Hitler now.

Your pathetic.

Seriously, this argument was, I thought, about whether LA officials were murderously incompetent. So I am not clear why this incident would be proof that they are. It seems to me it is proof that they did make an effort to use whatever resources they had to get the most obviously vulnerable out prior to landfall.

To pretend they had no disaster plan and this whole mess is thier own fault is just folly, when the fact that they offered resources to evacuate a particularely vulnerable nursing home. I imagine that other vulnerable assets were also protected in this manner. Because in a disaster, you have to try and do whatever you can that is within your means.

The reality is, thier disaster plan was in line with that of most american cities. That is why we founded FEMA, to pick up the slack. You can pretend otherwise, but thats just silly. NO no more had the money to safely evac the entire city to a warm and cozy inland hotel every time a hurricane was spotted offshore than I have the means to buy buckingham palace.

Personally, I kinda think they should have, but in this tax cut, corporate welfare increase atmosphere, to even bring a solution like that up in congress or senate committes, it would be laughed off the floor as a waste of money so fast heads would spin. It is not a bazillion dollar bridge for a republican town of 50 people after all. New Orleans could not tax enough to provide this service for its citizens, there is not a large enough pool of earners to provide it.

So therein lies the rub, everybody knew this could happen, and everybody knew the resources for a full evacuation were not there, FEMAS own calcualtions for hurricaine pam said that 300,000 people would be left behind, so there is no way the, how was fema sposed to know NO would not be evacuated argument will work, because fema knew. There is no way the we did not know the levee would break argument could work, because we did. Blanco asked for resources in writing and verbally BEFORE landfall, and Bush and Brown stated publicly that resources were at the ready, so we also know that they knew that permission for response had indeed been granted. and that that argument, which did not work in Andrew when Sr tried it the first time, did not work again

Now I will explain again, Bush is not personally responsible for the bungling, but he IS responsible for the hiring of the bunglers.

I've been following this thread with interest since Emerson's tour de force, filling in gaps in my knowledge of the New Orleans situation,comparing with a wide range of MSM and blogs, starting to see a pattern emerge.

Unfortunately a common secondary pattern emerged as well, for the most part well-mannered people presenting arguments in a logical manner eventually driven bonkers and into reciprocal rudeness by a holier-than-thou liberal whose aim is seldom to learn anything and who is impervious to facts no matter how well provenanced that do not jibe with his/her pre-conceived notions.

Luckily for me, Comrade Stalin lost interest. Someone who is so benighted that he honors the worst mass murderer in history with his chosen nom de plume is beyond reasonable comment.

Katie was not so obviously irredeemable and made some attempt to string ideas together rather than mere slogans so she was given credit for that and people did start out bothering to respond to her ideas, naive though they were regarding the workings of American federalism and refuting them.

However, those who patiently explained over and over and in different ways the jurisdictions of three tier government to someone seemingly tone-deaf discovered much to their chagrin that they had been suckered again into the Swamp of Despair, this time by an innocent little-girl sounding handle. The "poppet" was just another modern liberal with the usual crazy-making thinking and strategies:

My reading of Katie is that she is young, so I am not personalizing the following remarks toward her. She can decide for herself what part if any applies and whether she ever wants to do anything about it. Didn't we all start out as Katie at some point? but eventually we put away childish things...

A Non-Exhaustive yet exhausting list of liberal/Democrat characteristics:

1. arguing from and with emotion rather than logic
2. iron-clad sense of moral superiority
3. It follows from 2. that anyone disagreeing with
a liberal is a moral imbecile or evil.
4. Logic is no requirement for a god/goddess of
the Left - too limiting and time consuming,
when there is a world to be saved, and people
to be lectured.
5. The liberal sword is catchy sound bites that
are outright lies or over-simplification (e.g.
"Bush lied and troops died", vs "along with all the best intelligence available at the time
including the British and European services and
Congress including Kerry and the United Nations
which voted 18 resolutions to that effect, Bush believed that Hussein had WMD's which was one of half a dozen or more good reasons to invade
Iraq with the minimum possible accomplishment being the liberation of a suffering people from a murderous tyrant who was making a monkey out of the UN" (does not fit on bumper sticker)

6. These false sound bites are repeated without
embarrassment in an endless loop to bludgeon any opposition into glassy-eyed submission by a tag-team that includes the MSM, university professoriate, and the entertainment industry.

7. The liberal buckler/shield is ad hominem attacks on any opponents. The name-calling is less than two removes from Hitler. Talk back once and you're "stupid". Do it twice and you're Adolph. (And this from the self-appointed "intelligentsia").

8. The liberal cavalry is glaring hypocrisy as otherwise they would drown in their own contradictions. If Clinton does "A" it's good. If Bush does "A" it's bad. If Bush does purple it's self-serving, arrogant etc. If he does anti-purple, it's self-serving, arrogant etc.

9. If all else fails,and their opponents score, liberals move the goal posts. No, no, they were never arguing "A". They were arguing "B". The plebian right misunderstood.

10 The Liberal cure for everything is to throw money at it, tax money. If you can force them to see that their policy has failed, they will say and believe that it is only because too little money was spent.

I could go on, but what's the point? Everyone on this thread knows the drill.

So here's the reminder we all need on a regular basis to keep the Advil bill down. If there is no give at all after the first couple of passes, (unlike mamapyjamas' friend who could see that Katrina reporting by the MSM was false and who therefore at least entertained the earthshaking idea that the Iraq coverage might be equally skewed), then the only thing to do with a liberal is to ignore them, like a skunk at a picnic who will wander off if not engaged. Just carry on as though they have not spoken/written. If you think to convince them with your brilliant arguments, read over the above points until the urge passes. Gods and goddesses are infallible and unteachable, unlike us lesser mortals.

AKA

Luckily for me, Comrade Stalin lost interest. Someone who is so benighted that he honors the worst mass murderer in history with his chosen nom de plume is beyond reasonable comment.

I have to say that Comrade Stalin is one of the most fair-minded and unbiased posters here and nothing like his namesake. It is an interesting question why the name of the mass-murderer Stalin does not offend in the same way as the mass-murderer Hitler.

The mass-murderer Mao had a resturant in Dublin named after him and there were few objectins. Maybe it's intended and taken as irony.

But that leaves the question as to why nazi irony doesn't exist.

Who does this describe?

Capacity Number 26: a matchless instinct for taking advantage of every breeze to raise a political whirlwind. …never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

Could by Gerry or Martin. Does it sound like anyone on this thread? More

´´people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.´´

Exactly, 6countyprod, you hit the nail on the head once again. How do you do it?
Here, for example, are a few of the big lies the American right peddles, with considerable success amongst the intellectually challenged among us:

Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

War is peace.

Iraq was connected with the 11th September attacks.

War is peace

The US govt and military care about the welfare of the Iraqis.

War is peace.

There are no innocent people sacrificed on the altar of geopolitics-there is just ´collateral damage´.

War is peace.

Katie, good luck to you. There is no talking to the right; they´d wouldn´t get the word hypocrisy if it was fired at them wrapped around one of those totally awesome ´smart´ bombs. Just know that not everyone on this side of the Atlantic is buying the manure that the neocons and their lackeys are peddling.

PS After all the energy expended on this site to prove that the US federal govt was no way to blame for the NO disaster why did Bush go and apologize for the govt handling of the affair? Just wondering...

Foreign correspondent: After all the energy expended on this site to prove that the US federal govt was no way to blame for the NO disaster why did Bush go and apologize for the govt handling of the affair?

That's right, Bush has acknowledged the shortcomings of his side. Just goes to show that the description I used doesn't fit GWB, but it sounds like you think it works for Katie, ...…never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

I'm really longing forward to the Democratic politicians, like LA Democratic Representative William Jefferson, who diverted National Guard resources and held up rescue operations for hours during Hurricane Katrina's aftermath so that he could retrieve his personal possessions, owning up to shortcomings and weaknesses. Somehow, I don't think I should hold my breath.

foreign correspondent

> PS After all the energy expended on this site to
> prove that the US federal govt was no way to blame
> for the NO disaster why did Bush go and apologize
> for the govt handling of the affair? Just
> wondering...

Bush and the Feds have no legal responsibility for the direction and control of state or local disaster response. Bush takes moral responsibility for any failing of the part of the response he is *responsible* for, the Feds. Were is the confusion?

Here is a question for you. If the Feds are responsible for the fiasco in La, does that mean they are also responsible for the fact that there was not a fiasco in Miss, were the destruction was far far worse?

katie

We are starting to go around in circles now..

Here is a quick question. In todays Washington Post is a story about the Convention Center.

Here's the link..

hyperlink

There were N.O police and La N.G on site and yet the place descended into anarchy? Please tell me how this is FEMA's fault? I know of absolutely no scenario were such a situation becomes a federal responsibility, disaster or no disaster..

Of course the real subtext of the article is that the minority who caused such mayhem in the center came from neighborhoods of NO were the city police dared not go even at the best of times.

Another article, this time about SF.

Here's the link..

hyperlink

The reason I keep bringing up San Francisco is because it is the only other large city in the US that will have a catastrophic natural disaster that suffers from the same kind of geographical isolation as N.O, and where everything points to it suffering a N.O style collapse of disaster response afterwards.

San Francisco unlike N.O is very rich with a very healthy tax base. San Francisco unlike NO is only 10% black, and has a low poverty rate.

San Francisco like N.O is a one party town with no meaningful political opposition, has a very long history of municipal corruption, and a very bloated city payroll with maybe 50% of city employees actually doing real jobs.

So lack of money cannot be an excuse for San Francisco shambolic disaster planning. Everything points to its corrupt and incompetent political culture. Just like N.O.

So it should be no surprise where I assign blame when things go seriously wrong...

To the people responsible..

How many billion cubic yards of earth would be needed to bring
all of New Orleans above sea level? Or is that a crazy notion?

BATON ROUGE, La. -- Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco yesterday took responsibility for failures and missteps in the immediate response to Hurricane Katrina and pledged a united effort to rebuild areas ravaged by the storm.

"We all know that there were failures at every level of government: state, federal and local. At the state level, we must take a careful look at what went wrong and make sure it never happens again. The buck stops here, and as your governor, I take full responsibility," Mrs. Blanco told lawmakers in a special meeting of the Louisiana Legislature.

Out of the horses mouth.

For foriegn ijit:

"Hussein had weapons of mass destruction."

Ask the kurds. Also read the conclusions of every major foriegn intel service. Read statements from prominent Dems back to 98 saying the exact same thing. OH thats right facts give you a headache.

"Iraq was connected with the 11th September attacks."

The 9-11 commision seemed to think there were very strong indications. No theres not a smoking gun yet. Besides who gives a damn about it other than LLL's looking for talking points.

"The US govt and military care about the welfare of the Iraqis."

Yea I know were there just for the jolies of killing children and baby seals. I'm sure you wish good ole sadam was back so he could kill 80,000 of the people you care so much about.

"There are no innocent people sacrificed on the altar of geopolitics-there is just ´collateral damage´."

If you believe this you are truly a moron. Let me give you a clue sparky...innocent people always die in conflicts. Find me any conflict in history which they dont...just one. It is one of the horrible fascts of war.

"buying the manure that the neocons and their lackeys are peddling."

You have cited not one fact, referenced not one incident and have emoted your LLL stupidity for all to see. Anyone who has a view different than you is EEEvilllll. Where I merely think of you as an ignorant sheep.

"this site to prove that the US federal govt was no way to blame"

Quote one statement in this discussion that, not out of context, says that. Otherwise shove your LLL strawman you know where.

"why did Bush go and apologize for the govt handling of the affair?"

Read my previous comment and above quote on that.

"with considerable success amongst the intellectually challenged among us:"

They dont agree with me...their Stooopidddd. What a wonderful world you must live in, holder of the faith and definer of truth.

Folks at this point i dont even need to read his response. But I bet it will have all of the insight of the post I responed to. I wonder how long it will take him to call me a racist/fascist/nazi. lol

Henry94 wrote "It is an interesting question why the name of the mass-murderer Stalin does not offend in the same way as the mass-murderer Hitler.

The mass-murderer Mao had a resturant in Dublin named after him and there were few objections. Maybe it's intended and taken as irony".

The short answer to the double standard for mass murderers is that the ones on the left continue to be defended by Marxist apologists who tend to be concentrated in Western universities and media, giving them clout out of proportion to their numbers.

This ties into the last few posts about people making mistakes and taking responsibility. Bush took responsibility for the federal part of the Katrina fall-out. It's a mature and "right" (in two senses of the word) thing to do and characteristically, the left bleats on about how this "proves" that he was completely and solely at fault. Instead, they should be wondering when the leaders on "their" side, Blanco and Nagin will step up to the plate and shoulder responsibility for what appears to be incompetence verging on the criminal.

More typically, the left never admits a mistake nor takes responsibility. Even in the face of the most egregious and exhaustively documented facts, they will deny, deny, deny. Try to get them even to admit that Stalin and Mao are mass murderers (or on a smaller scale, the much praised Castro and Che). Notice how the merest lip service is paid by the Left to the depradations of Stalin disciple Saddam Hussein and his gruesome sons while the left blogosphere is inundated with references to the President of the freest nation on the planet being "like Hitler". Defenders of Hitler? single digits. Defenders of Stalin and Mao? countless.

Since Lenin's and Stalin's victims numbered in the tens of millions many of whom have descendants who survived, myself included, there are plenty of people world-wide who are offended by the blithe insensitivity of Comrade Stalin who has to be either history illiterate or something worse. However, the survivors are not concentrated in the education nor mass media/entertainment structure. They are also permanently traumatized and find it difficult to fight back against the massive wilful Western obfuscation and ignorance which has followed the initial mass killings. For instance, the comparison of Guantanamo where there has not been a single fatality and Korans are literally handled with white gloves to the real Gulags where tens of millions including women and children perished is a shameless twisting of the knife.

As far as restaurants named after mass murderers, since Mao's preferred killing method was starvation...In Las Vegas, there is a restaurant called "Red Square" which had a 12 foot statue of Lenin out front, one of the ones toppled when the Iron Curtain came down. There was a great deal of protest about it. The solution was to leave the statue in place but behead it. Now that's irony. AKA

I think the appropriate response to a restuarant named after Mao would be not to eat there but rather to go inside and puke. You should leave with an empty stomach, not a full one, if you want to honor the legacy of Mao's mass starvation.

Hey Katie,

Check out this headline: "Nagin says parts of New Orleans to open this weekend"

At first, I was thinking I'd be "funny" and ask why Mayor Nagin was doing FEMA's job. After all, according to your theory, it's FEMA's responsibility to tell people when they can come back, when they can rebuild, etc. Who did Mayor Nagin think he was, usurping their authority?

But instead I'm just going to play it straight. I think the article clearly shows what we've been saying all along. Mayor Nagin is in charge of his city. He's the duly elected leader and nothing that has happened in the last two weeks has changed that reality. The reason Kathleen Blanco didn't make the announcement and the reason President Bush didn't make the announcement is because it is not their responsibility. They aren't the duly elected authority there. FEMA is an aid agency that coordinates with (but does not usurp the powers of) the local authorities. The local authorities are ultimately in charge and they decided when people return and when people rebuild. I think the headline and the story makes that crystal clear.

AKA

I could not agree with you more. I almost posted on exactly the same point.

Somehow Comrade Stalin at a phony email address is acceptable but Hitler@belsen.de would have caused howls of outrage. My guess is the moniker is a sad attempt at juvenile ironic humor.

Regarding the Mao restaurant I am sure if you did a little bit of research one could file a complain under one of those insufferable smug PC “racial incitement” laws, either EU or native. After all, there are 60,000+ Chinese in Ireland and I am certain that at least some of those people had relatives murdered by Mao.

If naming a restaurant after a political mass murderer is not cultural insensitivity then I do n't know what is.

Actually it might be fun to watch the Irish Times and RTE ties themselves up in knots if one brought such a case. Now that would be ironic humor...

Children, I am first of all an adult, and have worked as both a first responder and later as a disaster planner for many years.

The reason I say that most cities in america would not do better is because they wouldn't since FEMAS creation, the whole point of FEMA is to help prepare for and respond to disaster. And to avoind the expense and inequality of response when individual entities are left to head planning themselves.

Yes there were police and nat guard in la, they were unable to maintain order because
a. there were not enough of them once it became clear that relief was not coming and mob rule began to set in
b. all communications were down.

As for FEMA being constitutionally unable to send in water, that is patenetly false in so many ways, our US constitution is not simply a dead document, is is a document which law makers use to determine the intent of the framers when making laws. NOW UNDER FEDERAL LAW fema had every right to begin depositing food, communications supplies, medical equipment and quiet support without hearing word one from a governor, and because she had requested, in writing all available help Fema also had the right to begin sending in troops in a law enforcement capacity.

Our constitution also grants us the right to bear arms, yet federal law prohibits us from building a nuclear reactor in out garage. The riot act was employed during the LA riots, it is clearly not unprecidented. Under the riot act, preznit bush could have declared and emergency without blancos okay and sent troops in a display of force.

After 9/11, the 9/11 commission changed the authority for response to be uinder the DHS umbrella so technically the only people that FEMA needed for response permission were michael chertoff or president bush. Blanco had already given her permission, in writing.

Under NOLA/FEMA joint disaster planning, the city was put into lockdown, making delivery of red cross supplies unpermissable, without express permission from the government, and without protection for the volunteers. the people blocking the entrances to the city had no way in which to obtain said permisssion, as they had no communications capacity.

FEMA keeps an inventory of extra communications systems accessible in emergencies, all fifty states maintain some, at the ready and they could easily have been flown in. but they were not. Blanco would not have access to this information.

I understand that troops can take days, but 8 or 9 days???

sorry if this posts twice, I had to take a break

As I understand it, the Coast Guard was there on Day 1. I think they qualify as troops.

And what about this quote: "But active-duty troops didn't begin to arrive in large numbers along the Gulf Coast until Saturday." That is, four days after the levees broke. Where is your "8 or 9" days coming from?

The International Herald Tribune says five days, although I think they are counting from Monday and the levees didn't break until Tuesday. Here's another quote from them: "He [Brown] focused much of his criticism on Blanco, contrasting what he described as her confused response with far more agile mobilizations in Mississippi and Alabama, as well as in Florida during last year's hurricanes."

Go ahead and make an argument that four days is too long but don't just pull numbers out of thin air. It wasn't 9 days or even 8 (although it might have seemed like it at the time). And four days shouldn't even have been a problem at the Superdome itself if the local officals had their s(tuff) together. They couldn't even hold things together for one day. What does that say about them? The point of having people in the shelters is because you can organize and direct things there. You have a chain of command and procedures in place to deal with things. That way you free up effort to put into search and rescue to help people caught out in the middle of nowhere. However, what the local officials did was allow the shelters to become part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Mountrath

I thought Katie's post about the nursing home disaster offered
some good insights, especially about the abuse of private
health care funds, etc. Hope no one's been slandered though.

ABC were pumping people for negative comments on the Bush speech from people at the Houston Astrodome. This lady threw it right back and said what Katie simply cannot accept and won't even comment on - the blame for failure to evacuate and shelter out nof harm's way - epecially all those unused buses was LOCAL - not FEMA. She points at the Mayor.

http://newsbusters.org/node/1201

video clip :

http://newsbusters.org/media/2005-09-15-ABCPSP.mp3

And here is yet more evidence that after the 2004 exercise Louisiana failed to act on its lessons for evacuation and shelter. Thye Micheal Brown quoted here of La's staff is currently under indictment for fraud of FEM funds.)

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/defenseandsecurity/a/femapam.htm

It was saturday that large numbers of trrops began arriving, yet it was the thursday BEFORE the hurricane that FEMA was made aware of the catastrophic nature of said hurricane. It was friday before the whitehouse acknowledged the risk, and since thier own calculations allowed for a catastrophic result from a cat 3 hurricane, surely they were aware that a cat 5 would be worse? form thrsday until saturday is 9 days.

It was saturday that Kathleen Blanco acknowledged in writing, and officially (although I imagine she acknowledged that verbally on thursday) that this whole thing was beyond her scope. Saturday thru saturday is 7 days.

sometime between thursday and saturday the white house should have made available EVERY worse case scenario resource. Because NO is a worst case scenario state. AND FEMA KNEW!!!!

Yea the buses should have been utilized before the hurricane, some of them were, but where the hell were these people going to get bussed to? Huh? answer me that. Contain and control is an important part of large scale disaster planning, more and more every year, because budgets do not allow for relocations "just in case".

That is why FEMA needed to have communications, and food and water at the ready, as well as troops to bring it in. All of things could have been done. All of them, they just were not.

I know you think the sun shines out of the whitehouses arse, but chertoff and brown were incompetant. plain and simple, and they are bush cronies, chosen only because of who they knew, not what they knew. you know it in your heart but need to find a scapegoat rather than admit your may be responsible. but it is not your ideology that is flawed it is the choices of people within your party, hold them accountable, or you too may wind up a victim.

Katie: "Yea the buses should have been utilized before the hurricane, some of them were, but where the hell were these people going to get bussed to? Huh? answer me that."

Uh... the only bus that was used was one that was stolen by a kid who drove a busload of people out of New Orleans just as the flood started. This kid is a hero, in my book :).

Where should they have been bussed to?

ANYWHERE! High ground. Someplace that isn't 6 feet below sea level.

BTW, Katie, you still haven't answered a basic question that's been asked many times: If it was all FEMA's fault, why is New Orleans the ONLY city that had trouble with them? Mississippi, Alabama, and even other disaster-struck cities in Louisiana had no problems with FEMA. Only New Orleans.

WHY is that?

for the last time, the buses could not have been utilized before the hurricane, unless there was someplace to bus new orleanians to. someplace like....the astro dome? the astrodome was not made available until AFTER the dangerpoint. nor would it have been made available before. Houston does not have the money to feed and house and staff a large scale evacuation without the feds. nor does new otrleans. even if they did use ALL of those buses, only about 15 thousand could have been evacuated to someplace that was not yet available, before the storm, what about the other 135,000? who chooses who gets to go? far more than 15,000 were infirm or young children, infact well over half were. so again who picks? Directly after the hurricane, the buses and nat guard equipment that were actually parked on high ground before the levees broke, could have been utilized to take people somewhere, if there had been somewhere to take them and if communications to required to implement an evacuation had been available. Neither where. not to mention that "High Ground" became something of a joke once the levees broke.

And FYI there was indeed trouble in MS and AL, quite a bit of it. there also was and is problems with FEMA response in those states. the difference is, the populations are less highly concentrated, and therefore more easily manageable and MOST OF ALL, the water actually RECEEDED! the receeded water made stores of food more salveagable. leading to less widespread panic. It also made some cleanliness possible, leaving vulnerable people less badly off. In NO most of the foodsupply was underwater. and raw sewage as everywhere. in other states, the cities were small enough not to have to be put on lockdown. NO was locked down for safety, most cities its size would be. FEMA is also aware of this.

It does not take a rocket surgeon to look objectively at a disaster situation and think that while two states, have fewer people and a storm that rages, kills and ENDS, will have fewer problems than a third state which has a much, much higher population concentration and a storm that rages, kills, ends and sets off horrifying but predicted dangerous flooding that stays for days, right?

Look, If Clinton had hired the guys who botched this, my reaction would be THE SAME. this is not partisan. the feds SCREWED UP IN A HUGE WAY! To pretend this is not so is just crazy. And to pretend that this is all local fault when we as taxpayers have spent BILLIONS on federal disaster preparation is just dumb. The republicans are the safety party, the security party, they have siphoned millions away from every states government in order to give it to DHS, yet, DHS seems to have flushed it all down a toilet. somebody who is fiscally responsible should object to this response because dammit, we as a country have sacrificed tons of services to pay for this increased safety. and still we have to watch people die before or eyes like it is haiti, or liberia, NOT the united states of america

Your problem is tht yo re trying to pin ll the blame on FEMA. You jst won't dmit there was tardiness in declaring the "mandatory" evacuation and total inefficiency in actually enforcing it, nfd that the reaponsibility for that li9es squarely at local level.

All responsible people accept that thyere were serious shortcoming as at all level. Inclding Blanco who hs stted she ccepts responsibility, and for instance Bill Clinton.

But yo re tryin g to shuffle off all blame to FEMA for the tardiness in declaring mandatory evacuation and the egregious failure to actually support or organise a full evacuation. All the facts speak against this.

Forget about the levees. Nagin was being warned that Katrina could bring a huge wave surge well higher than the levees. How could he allow people to stay in low-lying areas, not even enforce a move to higher ground within the city itself. Why hd NO and La not orgnised arrangements for shelter away from the coastline, and transportation to get people there ? That was plumb crazy.

Guys,

Katie is in denial. You are never going to get her to admit that she may be wrong, in anything! Let her go back into her little Never Never KatieLand, where everyone agrees with what she says, just to humour her.

No matter how hard she may try, she could never bring herself to read something like To ABC's Surprise, Katrina Victims Praise Bush and Blame Nagin

I am not nor have I ever totally absolved New Orleans, however, knowing what I know about disadter planing, and also about what FEMA was capable of at one time, I know very well the FEMA was incompetent.

Once communications were down, it is only natural that NO personell would just keep doing what there last order stated until communications could be re established. It was up to FEMA to bring more communications in, NO HAD NO MORE!!!! They were gone. Level one trauma centers and Fire sysstems all over the nation keep emergency communications equipment at the ready. FEMA keeps a list of who has what. Radios and satellite phones could have been helicoptered in within hours.

Generators and hospital supplies could also have been helicoptored in immediately, FEMA has a list of those resources, had each hospital in NO been given a reliable contact radio to request them.

Portapotties and food and water could have been delivered to the giant numbers of people stranded in large chaotic groups. And federal troops at any point from two days prior to landfall had permission to facilitate this. Federal troops could have begun triage centers outside the super dome and convention centers, as well as brought in supplies by truck when the roads were clear, they could have hunkered down within police stations and begun triage centers and communications hubs there. they could have done search and rescue leaving law enforcement free to enforce laws. FEMA is capable of so much more than they did. keep pretending they are not all you want, but if this id the best we can do for a PREDICTED DISASTER WITH DAYS OF NOTICE, we are totally screwed, arent we?

Emergency planning has supposedly been priority on fro this administration. Preparedness has been the supposed shining star of thier platform. Frankly I was totally happy that someone has been paying attention to it at a national level and before I saw what happened during katrina, I would have lauded bushes work on this subject. The 9/11 commision was exactly what this country needed, and gave us excellent advice. Advice we ignored.

People who are either ignorant by choice are reporting on this story that NOs evacuation was a total failure. By FEMAS calculations, there would havebeen 300 thousand folks left over after evac, by news calculations, there were about 150 thousand left over. This evac would have been considered successful even by FEMA standards. We are holding NO officials responsible for disaster planning in accordance to FEMAS recomendations.

I did not know much about evacuation policy befoire Katrina as my expertise is supply, When I asked people I have worked with and was shown protocoIs for my sities, I was stunned to find that most large cities in this country would not evacuate, but try to corral people into large groups and keep them comfortable until either the danger has passed, or that shelter can be provided. Nagin and Blanco did exactly what your city will do with thier poor. And your citys poor will be largely black, elderly and infirm as well. There really is no other option, as states cannot afford much else. Perhaps now there will be. which is good, but we do not know if this could have beeen a success or not because an important part of this method is the constant delivery of supplies. Without those supply chains, it just does not take long at all for folks to descend into anarchy.

Katie

You are being ridiculous. It may be appropriate to gather people together, in other cities. It is simply not appropriate in a city below sea level to leave people wy BELOW sea level when a Force 4/5 is approaching. Evacuation to high ground shpuld have occurred long before there was any breakdown in communications. And NO and La shold hve plnned to shelter them in higher grpound. There was not the slightest effort to evacuate out of the city those without transport.

And even for the people directed to the Superbowl, NO and La had not provided either proper protection or adequate sanitation and water. The Convention Centre was not announced at the start as a shelter either.

You are crying over spilt milk. The First Responders did most of the spilling.

Interesting quote in frontpage article in todays SF Chronicle..

"In California, the cities, counties and state emergency services are expected to handle quakes on their own with little help from FEMA -- an arrangement that worked successfully in the 1994 Northridge and 1989 Loma Prieta earthquakes. FEMA is supposed to be a last resort, and in all California disasters of the past few decades, its chief role was to hand out reconstruction checks."

So tell me, why do we have to make a special case for La. and N.O? It's not that the voters of La and NO have not known for generations that their local and state government was notoriously corrupt and incompetent. Or that natural disasters strike their state. Why is it that nobody I've talked to who has lived in that part of the US is surprised that the only part of the disaster area that descended into anarchy was La and NO?

If the voters of La and NO could not be bothered to change the situation then why should the rest of us have to pick up the tab for their willful negligence?

Katie: "but try to corral people into large groups and keep them comfortable until either the danger has passed, or that shelter can be provided. Nagin and Blanco did exactly what your city will do with thier poor. And your citys poor will be largely black, elderly and infirm as well."

Katie, I respect your experience with this. I really do. But my city, Tallahassee, Fl, has certain places (like the Civic Center) designated as disaster shelters, and ALREADY has water, food, and sanitation supplies in storage that are replaced as needed. This is the NORMAL state of affairs here, given that Tallahassee is designated as a shelter city for people from the coast. The shelters are already stocked, they just have to be set up (sleeping bags and lenins unpacked, food given one last check for quality, etc). But sometimes WE get hit by hurricanes, too, and there is enough "room" built into the shelter planning to allow for the host city as well as coastal refugees. Inland cities like mine usually don't get evacuated (the real danger is the water surging in from the sea), but hurricaines like Kate in 1986 spawned hundreds of tornados, and some entire areas of the city had to be evacuated because of shredded power lines lying on the soaked ground or roofs ripped off of houses in a nice, neat path. Those already-stocked shelters came in MIGHTY handy! And it was done under the initiative of our MAYOR, not the Feds. We are NOT going to be shoved into the Civic Center and have our officials block relief supplies from coming in to us. That's for people who either don't plan at all, or make a plan then ignore it, as Nagin did.

The answer for hurricanes is that you plan for the worst and pray for the best. It's all you CAN do.

Mamapjs, I respect your opinion too, and tallahassee is a great city, I have been there, it is smaller than New Orleans, no? and it is also wealthier. but that really is neither here nore there.

But here is the thing, what if Tallahassees supplies were flooded out, submergerged in many feet of water, and there were no radios to order more in, Tallahassee would need FEMA too. IMMEDIATELY.

And realistically, If nagin had ordered the evacuation earlier, would more people had gotten out? those who could not afford to evac, still could not afford to, and those who stay because they are thrill seekers, are still thrill seekers.

And JMcConnel. Cali earthquakes have had wide response within 2 days for over 50 years. neigboring states as well as feds have been able to mobilize very quickly, because San Fran is a worst case scenario city too. But no offence to the cali big one fear, the NO big one is worse because floods are inherently more widely destuctive. Quakes, tornadoes and storm wind some times miss suff along thier path. Floods do'nt miss anything.

And yes kcom, the coast guard was there on day i, they were not deployed there. they are local assets, LA is the third largest port in the country. they have coast guard. I should have answered that earkier, but I had already stated this earlier in the thread so I figured you wre being deliberately obtuse.

Of course, most savvy readers know that desperate american journalists are not asking any such things.

They're too busy wiping Bush's residue off their lips. Bush "doesn't do nuance." And, neither does his corporate press. But, they do "do" Bush.

Katie

"What if Tallahassee flooded?" you ask.

Other thn few inches of flash flooding in heavy rain, is that really likely ? Whereas the flooding of most of NO was ALWAYS a possibility, so total evacuation should have been properly planned for. And contingency planning was needed for electricity generation in buildings below sea level in NO tht might not be totally evacuated, especially hospitals. And contingency planning was obviously necessary for refuelling the police communications center.

None of this was done by the local authroities who were responsible. Crazy.

You have probably seen that there is now a move to recall the Governor. Even if you don't agree with this, I suggest you read the many articles listed there. You constant harping on about FEMA looks even more unreasonable when the faults at local level are so stark.

http://impeachblanco.org/

http://impeachblanco.org/news.html

Katie: "But here is the thing, what if Tallahassees supplies were flooded out, submergerged in many feet of water, and there were no radios to order more in, Tallahassee would need FEMA too. IMMEDIATELY. "

Tallahassee used to flood routinely in the low areas during our rain-forest like wet season until excellent drainage was installed. We are NOT 6 feet below sea level, like most of NO.

In the landscape here, the city is hilly, at the very lowest point of the foothills of the Appalachan Mountains. No... there's not a mountain within several hundred miles, but we're where the hills begin. As stated above, the low areas used to flood almost every year. So we have a "been there, done that" history.

NONE of our shelters or other civic centers are on low ground. We know better. They are all in high and dry locations.

Further, the city has an evacuation plan that WILL be enforced if needed. Nor is anyone likely to object... the last flood was within living memory of most residents here. If our drainage system were overwhelmed as the one in NO was, we would not hesitate to leave.

Can one or more of the shelters get hit by a hurricane-spawned tornado? Of course. But THAT contengency has been planned for, too.

As I said in a previous message, plan for the worst, pray for the best. Our usual method of operation is to help ourselves, and when needed, WE tell FEMA and the NG what we need because that sort of thing is already planned for. THAT is the way it is supposed to work.

My state has been hit by 7 hurricanes in the last two years. Have you heard about any problems since Andrew?

Do you know why it took so long for FEMA and the National Guard to get to Homestead after Andrew? It was because our then-governor did not give President Bush (41) permission to take action in Florida, and probably for political reasons. That was our last Democrat governor... possibly for a very VERY long time.

brighid mcbride: "They're too busy wiping Bush's residue off their lips. Bush "doesn't do nuance." And, neither does his corporate press. But, they do "do" Bush."

Cute. Are you aware the 87% of the major US news media personnel are Democrats who voted for Clinton and later Kerry? Who have gone as far as to make up "news" with forged documents to try to destroy Bush?

"Corporate" doesn't matter in the news media. It's still the same reporters who went to journalism school in the first place because they all want to be the next Woodward and Bernstien (preferably both of them in one body). They have been smelling the blood in the water since Watergate. This is old stuff to Americans. Their bias usually turns up in very subtle ways, such as referring to Democrats as Democrats, and Republicans as "right wing". They've been called down on this hundreds of times by media watch groups.

Mysteriously, this "corporate" news media only aim their ire at Republican politicians... Democrats are never bothered by the news media unless there's a serious problem that can not be ignored. And the corporations that own the news media do not interfere with the bias of their daughter companies. As long as the news media are showing a profit, they are left alone. Decisions on how to play a story are made at the news room level, not at the top of the corporation. Corporations do not micromanage their daughter companies... that is a grossly inefficient way to run a business, and if corporations are nothing else, they ARE efficient.

Besides, the wealthy corporate people in the US are mostly Democrats (Donald Trump, Bill Gates, George Soros, Senator Jay Rockefeller, etc. etc. etc.) ;).

Katie: "And yes kcom, the coast guard was there on day i, they were not deployed there. they are local assets, LA is the third largest port in the country. they have coast guard. I should have answered that earkier, but I had already stated this earlier in the thread so I figured you wre being deliberately obtuse."

This is exactly right. The Coast Guard is Federal, but has a special place as a 1st responder. Rescue work is one of it's 2 primary missions. As soon as the storm winds died down, they had their heli's in the air, communications set up, and small boats in the water. They rescued more than 28,000 people from NO, starting on Day 1, as you said.

We didn't hear about this on the news because the news media was too busy concentrating on the negative. "If it bleeds, it leads."

I hate to point out the obvious, the Superdome and the convention center did not flood inside, they actually were floodsafe, The superdome took in some water form the storm damaged roof, but not very much damage was actually done. the hospitals that did flood, had vertical evac procedures in place, in preparation for that.

There was planning. The buildings chosen were the correct buildings for the tasks

Yes florida has been hit with many hurricanes since andrew and they have been handled very well, I wonder why? A swing state of a swing state with the presidents brother as a governor just may be able to garner white house attention more quickly.

This is just a guess, but I am betting Jeb has Georges private number. And a bit more access. this is not a bad thing, or even a condemnation, but it is factual. y'all are damn lucky to have Jeb as a governor, and not just because of what he does, but who he knows.

Look at the Terry Shiavo debacle, president bush was on a plane to the white house in his Jammies within an hour of getting the announcement of the completely UNCONSTITUTIONAL deliberations on her husbands right to guardianship were concluding.

I were the presidents brother, and the leader of a state, I too would use my relations to the president to the advantages of my constituency every chance I got. To not do that would be not governing to the fullest exptent of my ability. Legally Dubya cannot grant florida special status, but having a direct ear gives floridians a big advantage right now. Pretend it doesn't all you want.

As to Disasters handled under Clintons FEMA, they were just handled competently, for EVERYBODY in every state. I voted for Bush in 92, and in 96 I voted for the very first democrat I have ever in my life voted for, clintons second term, BECAUSE Of what he did to FEMA.

When Dubya Bush took the reigns and promised to further our countries disaster preparedness, even though I didnot vote for him (woulda voted McCain though, at the time he still had some integrity) I was thrilled. And I am not lying. I saw 9/11 as the perfect opportunity to truly get our countries safety priorities straight. I saw he was willing to spend all the money that needed to be spent and expected great things for that money. There was NOTHING bought with that money. We are WORSE OFF.

Governor incompetence is the excuse of the bush family when they FAIL to do what is necessary to protect americans in disaters. Like Father Like son. "They are very privileged you know (giggle) so this is working out very well for them, they can afford to spin scapegoats out of nothing you know"

John in London, "Other thn few inches of flash flooding in heavy rain, is that really likely ? Whereas the flooding of most of NO was ALWAYS a possibility, so total evacuation should have been properly planned for."

As I pointed out to Katie, Tallahasse has flooded many times in the past. The city is a "been there, done that" place. The water table in Florida is high, and here where the land is hilly, water can get trapped in the valleys between the hills. The last serious flood we had was replete with images of big-mouth bass swimming down Monroe Street. That was when we got really and truly serious about fixing the drainage here and working on emergency management plans. We have emergency plans that go all the way to total destruction of the city.

But, basically, we're too far inland to get hit by the storm surge of a hurricane. They tend to break up a bit before they get here. Kate in '86 was a Cat 2 when it hit the coast, and a Cat 1 when it hit Tallahassee.

But, basically you are right that being above sea level... uh... helps. MOST definitely!

But planning helps even more, as we've both been trying to point out :).

Katie: "I hate to point out the obvious, the Superdome and the convention center did not flood inside, they actually were floodsafe,"

Did they have food, water, and sanitary supplies IN STORAGE there? No.

Katie: "Governor incompetence is the excuse of the bush family when they FAIL to do what is necessary to protect americans in disaters. Like Father Like son. "They are very privileged you know (giggle) so this is working out very well for them, they can afford to spin scapegoats out of nothing you know""

Posse Comitatus is NOT an "excuse", it is a law. It is a law that exists for one specific reason... because of Reconstruction. We've already been over that.

Governor incompetence is tragically a fact of life. Entirely too many of them had never heard of Posse Comitatus until the NO flood. You'd have thought they'd remember Hurricane Andrew, but no....

Complete knowledge of a governor's responsibilities should be a requirement to even run for the job.

Addendum: To deny that Jeb has the President's ear would be silly, but it's also true that every city in Florida has complete emergency management plans that are actually followed. The Florida Keys have already been evacuated because of Hurricane Rita. This isn't a new plan set up in the wake of Katrina... it is a plan that has been in place for years.

It is also true that Jeb has a very competent grasp of his job. You can belittle him all you wish... he is a very competent and popular governor.

Another sick low-point for hysterical Bush-haters. When is this liberal lying going to stop?

6county... Funny that NBC apparently didn't take any kind of action to verify that man's story before going on the air with it, isn't it? It made Bush look bad, so they ran with it.

Weird how so many people think the US networks are in Bush's pocket, isn't it?

Christ's sake is this thread still going. This is supposed to be a Northern Ireland blog, can you boring partisanists have your tea party somewhere else ?

Comrade,

If you don't like this thread, DON'T READ IT! :)

Simple, huh? At least we're keeping our partisanship HERE. Have we infested the other threads? No. Now if we were wandering all over the board giving our opinion on all things Irish, you'd have reason to blow up about it. But this thread is about MY country, and I will comment on it until Mick tells me not to. He's got my e-mail address.

Way to go Mama. Yo're the cat's whiskers.

For the last fricking time folks, Posse Commitatus laws would not have prevented FEMA from providing supplies, communications or non law enforcement personall, all of which were late. You can spout them all you want but they simply do not apply to FEMA dropping food onto the streets of NEw Orleans after the governor has given her permission both orally and in writing. Technically she asked in writing for "all available assets" so the feds had a very strong case for sending in law enforcement troops as well, which they in fact did. BEFORE kathleen blanco signed control over to the feds, (in fact, I have to be honest, I am not sure she has given control over to the feds to this day, yet there are troops and personell there now, that kinda shoots yer argument all to hell doesn't it?) Not to mention that under the Riot act, troops could have been sent in legally by Dubya at any point.

Why can you not simply admit that this was a SEVERE fuck up? Jeb Bush IS a capable governor, I never said he wasn't but even he could not handled alone the complete flooding of miami. I really would be surprised if any governor of any state could have handled a disaster of this magnitude any better. Not even the great state of florida has the resources. Jeb Bushes capabilities aside. Now Jeb Bush also has the ear of the president. Florida will get help more quickly, the same as if a dem preses brother was governor of another state. no party would be different.

Now I really am bored with this thick argument. you guys need to look at this rationally, with your brains. call up Jebs office, ask him how he will evacuate Miami, ask him where people will be taken if they cannot provide for themselves, ask him how many days the generators will keep the hospitals running with no federal relief (federal requirement is three days, most states can handle four, NO actually handled seven, sparingly, even though much of thier emergency stores of fuel and spare generators were unavailable to them.), ask him if he would be adversely affected if 40 percent of his nat guard troops were out of the country, ask him if he could handle having half of his equipment in Iraq, and still more of it destroyed by floodwaters, even though it was on kept on high ground. Ask him if he thought floridians could handle losing thier food supplies without descending into anarchy?

If his staff is honest, they will admit that all these things are problematic. Even for the great Jeb Bush, and they would be problematic also for Guiliani.And if you ask them nicely, they may tell you that under fedaeral disaster planning mandates, they do not have the money, to say retain hundreds of thousands of hotel rooms, or enough spare genreators and fuel for self sufficience for a week. of And they will admit that these things are part of the reason we have a whole federal department for the management of emergencies.

Istead of falling for all the spin, left and right, look into the actual preparedness of the major city nearest you. you will find that while air america is not right, powerline is lying to ya too. The truth is usually somewhere square in the middle, and in this case, the middle is FEMA. Look at regulations in other major cities near you, and compare those regulations to documented response to Katrina. You will find that while not perfect, NO actually handled itself reasonably well. and certainly within Federal guidelines. Somestates could have handled it better, but none well enough not to need FEMA to respond IMMEDIATELY after the destruction of the food supply.

Mr Nagin just doesn’t seem to be able to get it together.

- First, he neglects the contingency plan for NO and comes up with his own deadly version, with little or no thought of the consequences.

- He doesn’t use 100’s and 100’s of buses at his disposal to get people out of the city.

- He screams in hysterics that 10,000 people are dead in NO, when less than a tenth of that number appear to have died.

- And now, in his haste to try to look like he is finally in control and doing something right, he, ridiculously, allows huge numbers of people back into the city, only to be reprimanded by those who still possess a little bit of common sense.

The more we see of Mr Nagin, the more he looks like a blithering idiot. Under his leadership, is it any wonder the good folks of NO have suffered so much?

"NO handled itself reasonably well" says Katie.

Anyone who truly believes that is a blind fool. The Mayor is still behaving like an idiot.

And the citizens of NO know it.

katie

As it seems I guessed correctly your professional background and age group earlier let me hazard a guess about your actual experience of area wide natural disasters. Based on the nature and tone of your arguments here I would guess that you have absolutely no direct experience of a large scale natural disaster, either in your professional capacity or as a private citizen. And I would also guess that you do not live in an area that suffers area wide natural disasters or have lived for any amount of time as an adult in such an area. There's nothing like actually experiencing a disaster or living with the potential of disaster ever day to cut through all the rhetorical political claptrap.

Guess what? No matter what the Federal Government does, how FEMA is reformed or changed, it will not make one iota of difference to the initial emergency response to a disaster. If the local and state is fairly competent, well and good, if the local government has chronic systemic problems, well, then, hang on because its going to be a hell of a ride. There is absolute no real world scenario, in NO, in SF, or anywhere else, where FEMA's can get involved in the first 72 to 96 hours, and negate any incompetence of state and local government. You can counter-argue all you want but it does not change the way the world works.

One of the strongest lessons I learned from the earthquake on 1989 was to completely ignore everything written in the national and international media about US natural disasters. Because it is complete and total garbage. The local media, tv and newspaper, which wallowed in trivia and inanity during normal times suddenly became extremely professional, responsible and informative when the disaster struck. The national media was beyond contempt in its coverage, obsessed with trivia, and trivializing the important. And the international media just parroted what the nationals were saying.

Katrina was no different. The NO Times Picayune, WWLTV, and the various Miss newspapers and tv stations did a great job of reporting the *real* news. And the bloggers on the ground did a better job. And the national media was as atrocious as ever.

The BBC and its mini-me, RTE, did a truly contemptible job in their coverage of the disaster. I would characterize most of the coverage as either outright lies, originating either in willful ignorance or deliberate malice, and the rest was gloating, pure and simple. The high point for me was the sanctimonious and completely phony moral outrage of the BBC TV reporter Matt Frei. He was going to file a ultra negative story from NO, facts or no facts. What a compete shit. He makes Geraldo Rivera look like a ultra professional Pulitzer prize journalist. Frei should scuttle back to reporting on Italy were he at least knows a little about what he is talking about.

Richard...

(taking a bow!)

Thank you :)

"I agree the chimp in chief has been woeful, and despite the incompetence of local state and city authorities Bush should have realised that as Harry Trueman said "the buck stops here". And who’s idea was it to, when facing accusations of racism, go and visit Trent Lott? "

Probably the same PR firm that suggested that Sen. Byrd handle the opposition to Dr. Rice becoming Sec. of State and trots Sen. Kennedy out on women's issues. The sad truth is is that Dem. Senators, such as Dodd from CT, who declared that Sen. Byrd (a former Klansman) would be an ideal senator for any period of American history, have said and done equally stupid/foolish/ignorant/whatever deeds. They just don't get the same flak.

"One that Bush is responsible because he pulled the rug under Koyoto and thus exacerbated global warming. This ignores the fact that there's been as many hurricanes this century as there has been in the last couple."

Statistically, we are emerging from a "soft" period re: hurricanes and still behind the forties in number and intensity... combine that with the last time Kyoto was thrown to the US Senate, the vote was 99-0 against, you come away with a different view.

"Second one is that if it wasn't for Iraq it wouldn't have been so bad. Only 10% of the US's armed forces are tied up in Iraq. There was more than enough national resources to deal with it.

The real problem was bureacracy, another related story is that it's the fault of Bush’s supposed republican assault on big government."

Nah... the problem is structural -- seperation of state and Federal gov't, with each political division too worried about their own perogatives to see the bigger picture. Throw in that the local emergency response leadership in NOLA was already under Federal indictment for embezzling / misuse of funds and the simple fact that NOLA was broken long before Hurricane Katrina and you have the recipe for a big ol' pot of disaster gumbo.

Katie: "For the last fricking time folks, Posse Commitatus laws would not have prevented FEMA from providing supplies, communications or non law enforcement personall, all of which were late. "

The Louisiana government was doing everything it could to keep supplies OUT of NO. They gave their reasons, they've already been discussed here. See the Red Cross web page.

Also, you might notice that while it took 9 days for the NG and FEMA to reach Homestead, Fl after Hurricane Andrew tore up the area, there was no lawlessness or looting there. And there was no disaster plan in place at that time, either.

Now, how did that happen?

Answer: US Code

TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 >
§ 311.

Militia: composition and classes

Release date: 2005-07-12

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

The fact of the matter is that the police in Homestead were seriously undermanned, and most of them storm victims themselves, so they got together with various neighborhood leaders and activated the "unorganized militia".

Everyone they could round up who owned a hunting rifle or other firearm were put on regular patrols in their neighborhoods. The armed presence kept order in Homestead, and no one ever had to fire a shot.

And they did more than just keep order there. They talked to the neighbors, organized searches for food and bottled water, found out who was hurt and who else needed medical attention for chronic conditions, and by the time the NG and FEMA got there, they had lists of people who needed special help... and the city under control.

They did this on their own initiative, and in accordance with the US Code, Title 10. ANY citizen considered to be "in charge" can activate US Code, Title 10. They did not ask if they could do it, they did not wait for the NG to come around to save them... they just did it.

This is one of the primary reasons we fight so hard to keep the right to bear arms. Every time someone gives me an argument that almost convinces me that it needs to be revisited, I just think, "Andrew."

SOME of this happened in NO. There were groups of armed people protecting areas of the historic French Quarter. But they were doing it on thier own initiative. Homestead was a smaller area so this may have been more effective, but more initiative of this sort in NO would have been a huge help.

There is a LOT people can do for themselves without crying to Big Nanny.

Texas shows us how to use local transport properly

Yup... as I said above...

Neighbors protect themselves

A New Orleans man describes how his neighborhood kept looters at bay by arming themselves. Quote:

"For five days we didn't need FEMA, the Red Cross or the National Guard," Harris said. "The neighborhood took care of itself."

Way to go 6cprod, highlighting yet another "journalistic" tour de force from the good folk at powerline, always a non biased source for info.

What Powerline forgot to mention, is that two weeks ago, Galveston called for volunteers to canvas its neighborhoods, locating the people who could be made available to drive these busses, and the people who would need them. This is not an example of a town that had it all together BEFORE katrina and therefore could have handled itself better than Nagin/Blanco, but of one who learned FROM Katrinas mistakes. Which is good, certainly. And I applaud them for it. But a month ago, Galvestons buses, like those in NO would have sat for the most part, Idle. I'd Also like to point out that there are shelters ALL OVER inland texas, NM and other states, so these people will have somewhere to go. These shelters were not in existence prior to Katrina. I am glad things seem to be going so much better this time, I really am, but to use galveston as an example of proper planning when they would have been in the same spot as NO had katrina hit them first is not very responsible journalism. Or arguing.

But that is a GOOD example os the fragile nature of the arguments of the right these days, they do not stand up to facts.
Instead of just writing a congratualtory piece on galvestons evac process, they had to use it as an example of NO's incompetence.
Yet the very reason that Galveston knew of its OWN shortcomings, was watching NO's. had the cities been reversed, the result would have been the same.

Heya Katie:

The biggest problem with New Orleans, Katie, is the level of corruption in that dear little town. I mean, honestly, the previous Mayor, Morial -- y'know, the fellow the Dems nominated as reconstruction czar?? He is so crooked he'll have twisted into the ground like a corkscrew. The whole place has been on the take since at least Huey Long, if not the Sieur de Bienville. Honestly, city and state politics down there is more crooked than Gerry Adams' teeth.

The fact of the matter is is that the plan for the evacuation of New Orleans included those buses, which were supposed to be used to evacuate people. The plan certainly did *NOT* include leaving those buses to the storm, nor did it include Nagin demanding the use of "Every Greyhound bus the line has," as he is said to have demanded. The fact of the matter is is that the last time the Superdome was used as a shelter, they had many of the same problems -- no food, no water, no power, etc. The short-form answer is that Nagin, for all of his business acumen, is a boob, and an incompetant one at that. That's usually a marginal step up from corrupt, but Tamanny Hall and Huey Long had the good sense to take care of the voters. This clown didn't.

Katie, are you going to sit there and tell me that New Orleans drew up a plan that called for using buses but did NOT call for finding drivers?

If so, you call that a plan???

Katie,

you got it right on the nose, Texas learned from the experience of Katrina, and immediately implemented the lessons.

However, Mayor Nagin didn't. He, against everyone else's wishes, wanted to move masses of people back into NO, and expose them to further danger. He's an absolute nincompoop!

Oh yeah, question, do you not like Powerline: because of the high quality of their writing articulating conservative values; because they are lawyers; because a couple of them are Jewish; or because they helped to expose Dan Rather's lies against President Bush last year?

Katie, I forget to mention another little nibble you might be interested in, Kyoto. See: slugger

6cprod I don't even dislike Powerline... It is simply a right leaning version of the ED Schultz Show. Thier "News" is incomplete consistently, and they (on purpose, I think) avoid giving any large chunks of a story that may not suit thier Ideology. I do not fall for liberal Idealogues that do not tell the full story, nor do I fall for conservative ones. I admit I read powerline, and on occasion am impressed with its thoroughness.
but that thoroughness is ONLY when the left is in deep, and NEVER vice versa.

And as for the level of corruption in NO right now, I think it is dwarfed in compaarison witht he level of corruption in TEXAS, not only is Tom Delay about to go down hard, so are most of his buddies. the chief budget and procurement tofficer of the US has either been indicted or resigned because he is about to be, and he is also a close friend of DeLays... Frankly these people make NO graft look like cheating at scrabble.

Not that I condone NOs problems, I think a calm and nuetral investigation is necessary to find out whhat is truth and what is conjecture at this point. This is part of the reason I do not think congress is capable of investigating itself. There are folks on BOTH sides of the aisle that will be implicated.

And as for nagin allowing the repopulation of NO, this is peoples homes and livelihoods were talking about. they have every right to come back and start to rebuild as soon as it is dry. There has NEVER been two back to back hurricaine this large since we began tracking hurricaines. Why would he not allow people back. He evaced 'em again and am sure it ticked folks off but thats life in a hurricane zone. And if a third storm comes three weeks from now, he will just have to evac a third time. Thats life. He has to balance the safety of the public with the RIGHTS of people to check on thier property, and the RIGHTS of people to take part in the rebuilding of thier property. Y'all would be just as angry if he'd never allowed folks back. You will bitch no matter WHAT he does. Because you have chosen to make him the symbol of this mess, not FEMA, who screwed up more, and more consistently.

mama pjs

I thnk we have discussed this very point about 6 times before on this thread. NO did not have enough busses to get EVERYONE out. so he offered help to nursinghomes, sr citizens complexes, all the obvious places. but beyond that how was he supposed to choose? how was he supposed to decise which 15 thousand should be bussed out, and which 160-285 thousand should be left? How would you decide?

From what I read, those buses were actually parked on high ground ready to begin disperrsing people after the storm, but once the levees broke, high ground did not mean much, did it?

Now I am watching the nightmarish houston evac on TV, and it appears to me that even with the huge amount of help texas is getting from FEMA, they are not handling it well either. Perhaps FEMA does need to be looked at. When Cuba can do a better job, we know there s a problem.

And as for the level of corruption in NO right now, I think it is dwarfed in compaarison witht he level of corruption in TEXAS, not only is Tom Delay about to go down hard, so are most of his buddies. the chief budget and procurement tofficer of the US has either been indicted or resigned because he is about to be, and he is also a close friend of DeLays... Frankly these people make NO graft look like cheating at scrabble

Not even close, Katie. Delay is a single event in history. New Orleans has a grand tradition of peculation, pay-offs, graft and criminal enterprise. On the criminal level, it has problems on proportion greater than that of NYC -- something like 7+ times the murders on a per capita basis. The police are crroked, the politicians incompetant for decades.

As for the buses, they were one step in a chain of events marking Nagin as a boob. They had plenty of warning that the storm was coming, so toleave them to the storm, even if you're not going to use them, is criminally wasteful.

And as mamapajamas said, if your plan -- the plan you've paid to have developed, the plan that puts the Mayor of New Orleans squarely in charge, calls for using city and municpal buses, isn't just common sense to have bus-drivers. New Orleans lacked effective leadership, as evidenced by municiple workers, including cops, walking away from their jobs.

The Plan called for using buses for some of the more vulnerable, NEVER for a full scale evacuation. Becuase NO never had enough buses. Galveston and houstons plans were the same way. Galveston luckily has enough buses and was able to cobble together transport at the last moment, and houston has been able to utilize federal military transport planes to pick up where houstons resources left off. those fed resources only seem to be available now that Katrina has proven to be such a black mark. And there are probably at least 3/4 of a million people left in houston right now. Houston is not likely to completely flood, like galveston, but if it does, fed response needs to include replenishment of food supply immediately or the same thing that happened in NO will happen there. And however you may feel about my liberal arguments, you know I am right on that one deep down . I am just keeping my fingers crossed that this one is less severe than Katrina was. It is not looking that way as NOs levees are already overtopped, so I am just hoping that all those left behind will be safe.

Katie: The Plan called for using buses for some of the more vulnerable, NEVER for a full scale evacuation.

Seeing as they were left to the storm and the numbers of poor and vulnerable left behind, they weren't even used for that.

Dread, FEMAS count thought 300 thousand would be left behind, there were less than 200 thousand actually left. Thats about 33 percent BETTER than we planned for. What if it had been the same as FEMAs numbers?

Katie:

The fact of the matter is that Nagin and Blanco and the rest of the Keystone Kops down there pretty much abandoned the plan -- like I said, see all the buses left to the storm. They refused to learn from history, such as the last time the Superdome was used as an emergency shelter. They were unable to coordinate on the ground -- witness people being directed to certain bridges by NOLA, only to find local authorities locked down those bridges to prevent folks from getting into Gretna, La. They were so determined to get people out they refused to allow the Red Cross in to alleviate the troubles at the Superdome. They were so corrupt that federal monies sent to the NOLA to be used to develop a comprehensive evacuation plan were spent on developing the future of the Lake Ponchatrain causeway, the 7 million dollars the Feds sent in 2003 to upgrade communications wasn't spent properly, or that the State's emergency directors were already under endictment for their misappropriations.

New Orleans and, to a lesser extent Louisiana, is a basketcase going back at *LEAST* to Reconstruction.

Katie, just so you would know...

(from NRO)

The Levee Board’s greatest hits include:

A $2.4 million Mardi Gras Fountain on the banks of the same Lake Pontchartrain that engulfed New Orleans.

$15 million for two highway overpasses to speed motorists to and from Bally’s Casino New Orleans. The Levee Board is the gambling den’s landlord.

$45,000 for a private eye’s nine-month probe into Robert Namer, a radio host and Levee Board critic. Then it blew $45,000 more for a legal settlement with Namer after he sued the Levee Board.

Of the eleven construction projects on its website, only two appear flood-oriented. Others involve painting and coating, pouring asphalt, and installing a marine fuel tank.

As if all this did not leave its plate overflowing, the Levee Board also owns and runs New Orleans Lakefront Airport. Its webpage boasts “Meeting rooms, free of charge” and “Full course dining with a view of the airfield in the Walnut Room.” It also announces, “We have 83 acres of prime airport land available for development.”

The Levee Board owns and operates Orleans Marina. As its website suggests: “Bring your boat and stay with us for your convention, the Sugar Bowl, Mardi Gras, Jazz Fest, or any special event — or just to have a fling!”

In addition, the Levee Board owns and manages South Shore Harbor Marina, another yacht basin with 447 open slips and 26 covered slips. “Wednesday nights are Red Beans and Rice nights,” its website chirps.

According to a state inspector general, the Levee Board suffers from “a long-standing and continuing disregard of the public interest.”

This is unfortunate for appearances sake, but the levee boards other responsibility is tourism... now when we find out how much of the non levee projects came out of levee money, then we can surely bitch, but until we know for sure, we are kinda talking out our kneecaps arent we? Some or all of those non levee projects came from money earmarked for those purposes, paid by fees from the industrys which benefit from them. And from drink taxes. Not from federal or state levee money

Now I do not doubt there was some graft, but until we can find out how much, we don't really know enough to speculate do we?
We do know that the levee board has funds designated for non levee activities, and legally when the army corps of engineers recieves money for levees, they are not supposed to spend it on other things.

Since I saw a very similar article appear more than a week and a half ago, and there have not been any answers to the authenticity of the claims, Nor any acknowledgement on the rights part, of two actual budgets. Which leads me to think that perhaps this is another attempt to scapegoat. I will reserve judgement. I would think that by now in this antibush frenzy, the right wing apologists would have left no stone unturned in thier haste to absolve thier leader. If there was indeed Corps of engineer money spent on a fountain, ALL MEDIA would have reported it. Yet if tourism money was spent on a fountain, or a marina it would not make a very good story at all. Hence the non follow up. Perhaps the levee boards records were destroyed in the flood and the truth will come out later, and then I will eat my words, but until then, I will just hope for a NUETRAL investigation.

Homeland security is after all the be all end all for this admin, and they seem to be mucking it up a bit, don't they?

Katie: "This is unfortunate for appearances sake, but the levee boards other responsibility is tourism... now when we find out how much of the non levee projects came out of levee money, then we can surely bitch, but until we know for sure,"

Agreed... which only points out that La., especially NO, needs a major audit if this much stuff is turning up just on web searches.

America is sick and tired of corrupt lying GOP politicians who are only interested in lining their own pockets, at the expense of America.

America is sick and tired of Bushbots, who love their Party more than their country, and love nothing more than the politics of hatred, personal smear attacks and divisiveness.

America is sick of the hypocrisy of the faux Christians in power, who can find he time to rush back to Washington for an emergency Congressional session to "protect" a brain dead white Christian woman, but who cannot cut their vacations even one day short when a city full of poor blacks is dying.

America is sick of the taunting, the trash talking, the threats, the "Bring It On" talk from cowards thousands of miles away from the fighting. America is sick of keyboard commando's who have never once put their own lives in danger, but cheer on war after war after war.

America is sick of the party of hate, the party of war, the party of anger, the party of irrational Fundamentalism. You had your chance.

Step aside and let the grownups run the show again.

Then win the next election

Sadly mamapjs, I think if this much is showing up right on NOLAS Official websites, to me that means that perhaps they are not trying to hide it. And that maybe, fountain money was spent on fountains and levee money on levees. But again we do need a NUETRAL investigations, I predict that there will be many democrats who go down, right alongside the righties, so the only way to do this correctly is to appoint with no strong ties to either party or to LA govt.

Sitting governmnet cannot be asked to investigate itself. And this reaches beyond appropriations and LA, it implicates EVERY committee as well as the DHS. There is no one nuetral available for investigations So Nuetral people need to be found.

We Know that on TV we saw MILES of Active service escorted semis of supplies being shipped in to all the Rita states while rain was still falling, So we know it was possible for Katrina too. And we all know that Blanco did ask for supplies and help in delivering them but was not given them. Even though she gave bush as much notice as there was for rita (so did MI and AL, by the way) And we also know that hundreds of New Orleanians died form those supplies not being there.

And now we know too that even with federal help, largely populated areas cannot fully evacuate, so perhaps we can go easy on NO. a little, in fact, I have read estimates that out of about 5 million people in ritas way, only half were evaced. well over half of NOLAS population was evacuated prior to katrina. Hmmmm....

Katie

You are a flat-earther, making things up as you go along.

You say that hundreds of people died of hunger.

That is an outright LIE.

They mostly died of DROWNING.

Because they lived below sea level and they had not been evacuated.

Because the Mayor and the Governor screwed up.

They should ALL have been evacuated. It was unlike Hoston where many areas had no significnt risk of flood. Virtually all of residential NO was at severe risk, from sea surge even if there were no levee breaks.

That is what killed them. The inquests will state "Death by Drowning" And they should also state "Death by Sheer Incompetence" by the First Responders, who knew from rehearsals what the risks were and failed to tighten up their own plans.

Just keep looking at the photos of the buses. In Texas they were being used to tke people out of harm's way.

In NO they were simply left in the parking lots.

Like the man said, Don't Get Stuck on Stupid.

Didn't Bush start all this "irrelevance of the actual facts" when he decided to declare war on Iraq?

john in london... Flat earther? I never stated hundreds of people died of starvation, but hospital occupants died of no life support, People in the superdome died of dehydration, and lack of insulin, people (including children) in the convention ctr died of the same, one nursing home (not st ritas) did not flood until friday after the storm and many people died there, when they certainly could have been escorted to higher ground with the requested supplies. The occupants were too ill to be simply placed in a school bus, even if they weren't flooded.

I know you do not want FEMA to be guilty, but the answer is quites simply, FEMA is.

Now for the last time, there were not enough buses to even make a dent in the NO population... Only 15,000 could have been moved pre Katrina. Which 15,000 then? Are you willling to decide that for Mayor Nagin? Do you not get that the buses were in "high ground" and ready to move people after the storm, except the damn levees broke. Do you not get that NO and FEMA had together conceeded that NO plans for disaster post leveee were COMPLETELY BEYOND NOs capacities? Do you not get that many of the buses you are so obsessed about were used to transport people TO the superdome? Do you not get that there were 3 days of supplies in the dome? People were asked to bring thier own, yes, but they were there nonetheless. And prior to the destruction of the water supply, water was available to the occupants of both the convention ctr and the superdome.

Now the Superdome did not flood and its occupants did not drown, the convention center did not flood and nobody drowned there. The hospitals did not flood beyond the help of vertical evacuations there were no drwoning deaths in the hospitals.. The people who died in the mardi gras staging area did not drown, the people who died on the freeway overpasses did not drown.

Nobody drowned in these places, but MANY died.

Katie

I am afrid you are telling lies again. In your earlier post you specifically said that hundreds of people died because FEMA failed to get supplies to them. THAT IS A HUGE, MONSTROUS LIE, yo cnnot deny this. Nowhere have I seen anyone except you claiming any such thing.

The people who DROWNED in the nursing home died because they were not evacuated. It was not FEMA's job to evacuate them. It was the responsibility of the city and state authorities, who groossly failed.

The many, many people who DROWNED in low-lying areas of NO died becaause they were not evacuated by the city and state authorities, in some cases because they fecklessly decided to riksk the hurricane. Not because of FEMA - it was not FEMA's responsibility to evacuate them, to properly warn them of the dangers. That ws the job of the Mayor and Governor, who finally acted on their responsibility for Rita.

There were not many deaths in the Superdome and the Convention Centre. Certainly not "hundreds".There were SOME deaths caused by lawlessness - the responsibility of the Mayor and Governor, who did not provide enough police and National Guards. And they had also failed to provide dequate food, water and sanitation. The Governor then componded this by blocking the Red Cross and Salvation Army as FEMA's agents sending in more supplies. But again, this did not involve "hundreds" of deaths, although the culpability for extended human suffering is clear.

There were about 40 deaths at the Memorial Hospital owing to the failure of the power system. Again, that was not FEMA's responsibility. They should have been evacuated sooner - by the city and state.

The people who died on the overpass -not " hundreds" or even dozens - died because LOCAL police nder LOCL sheriff would not let them cross ot of the city. And the Governor failed to intervene. Again, not FEMA's fault.

In sum, can you not see that you were telling a monstrous lie in claiming that the feds were responsible for hundreds of deaths ?

You should be ashamed of yourself. You are talking spiteful blind nonsense, padded out with big lies.

And you still totally deny that those hundreds of buses should have been used to evacuate, not even to get EVERYONE to higher ground. There were at least 500 buses inside the city - enough to get EVERYONE out of the areas below sea level.

You and your ilk will be nailed by this central issue - why were the buses not used ? Why did the Mayor and governor delay over declaring mandatory evacuation. And when they did declare it, why did they not get the message through properly, why did they not warn people starkly enough, why did they not use those hundreds and hundreds of buses ? They KNEW the severity of the sittion, they KNEW the risks to THEIR citizens. You know damn well they then lost control of the situation. They could not even control the NO police properly, and there were a lot of National Guards in the Convention Centre doing damn all to help there.

Try reading this pithy view on where responsibility lies, written by a black man.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46492

http://www.nwanews.com/story.php?paper=bcdr§ion=News&storyid=24948

There were many, many deaths by drowning. Far more than died in the nrsing home, the Memorial hospital, The Convention Centre and the Superdome combined.

And they drowned because they were not evacuated.

The DROWNINGS, evidently hundreds of them, were the fault of the city and state, and the fault of many people who chose to stay put. NOT the fault of FEMA.

John in london, no I am not ashamed, nor am I telling a "monstrous lie" nor even a lie at all. you see the whole premise of NOLAS evac policiy, like the policys of EVERY OTHER MAJOR CITY is get the people that can get out, out, and maintain the safety of those who are left behind. To keep going back to the evac is truly silly of you. let it rest.

If that were not the case and every other city were better prepared for evacuation, you would have seen an organized, divided, and smooth evacuation of Houston, Utilizing contraflow and grid procedures instead of the massive traffic jam that happened. Even though Houston had the opportunities in many ways to prevent some of the nola mistakes, thier EVAC was really NO better. In fact it was WORSE. why is this? Because evac is not always the answer. In very LARGE population concentrations, Keeping people safe until an ORGANIZED and CORRECT and SAFE Evacuation can be managed is the answer. Because busloads of old people exploding is not Ideal either. And since the superdome, the convention center, hospitals and also major hotels did not flood, safe, organized arrangements could have been made. within NOLA. Had the police had time to JUST police, and rescue and medical personel had time to just do thier jobs. But none of those things could happen, because communications were down, and thousands of people did not have food, not because of lack of preparation, but because thier food supply was under water.

Supplies were not let in to NOLA because the people guarding nola were under orders to lock down the city, like they would be in london. Had there been a Radio for them to call someone, Or a military escort (not actively using force mind you, simply aiding in the transport, fully in keeping with our constitution dear heart) for the supplies they would have been let in. I understand that it is becoming the norm to blame, "State and Local" governments, And that the smear tactics ARE working, but that does not mean I do not speak the truth. I am FULLY aware that there is not a city of NOLAS size who would have done any more than marginally better under the same circumstances.
People were not allowed to cross bridges in mobs out of NOLA because there was no way to control the dangerous, paniced crowds, crowds which btw, would not have been paniced had they had food, or insulin.

What happened is partially due to nola but MOSTLY DUE to FEMA. end of story.

Yes John in london, I fully agree that planes buses trains and riverboats ahould have been utilized prior to Katrinas landfall to quickly escort the good citizens of NOLA to Ritz carlton suites all over the US, but that is just not the way we do things here, I am sorry to say. There is no money for normal citizens of the US because they are not priorities. To blame Nagin AFTER the fact is stupid and totally false.

We Have FEMA for a reason. and we have funded and funded and funded its Department, DHS to a degree that I do not think I have ever seen, we have taken money from EVERY kind of government, including local first response in all 50 states and diverted it DHS, because supposedly public safety is what republicans are good at.... and they FUCKED UP.

And that isn't even going into how I feel about living in the richest country in the world and having infrastucture that is hopelessly out of date. Where are our priorities? Why is our levee system not at least comparable to your water protection on the Thames?

And John, there would have been dorownigs no matter what... Do you blmae Haley Barbour for the the Katrina deaths in Missisippi? they are directly related to the storm. Death by insulin shortage or dehydration are NOT normal storm related deaths. And there were in fact well over a hundred of those all together too, you see, 40 dead here 8 there 30 over there a dozen there and so on and so on.... pretty soon ya got real numbers don'tcha?

Quibbling over the numbers is kind of a moot point because the autopsies are not complete yet... we just do not know. When we do then we can argue.

Katie

The LOCAL authorities FAILED to declare mandatory evacuation soon enogh, they FAILED to warn their citizens enough of the extreme danger, so a lot of the citizens opted to ignore the warnings, (Was the Governor telling sty--behinds to ink their Social Security numbers on their arms - No), the city and state FAILED to evacuate ALL people from residential areas under sea level, either taking them inland or even to areas in NO above sea level. They FAILED to even use all those hundreds of buses in NO, let alone the 20,000 registerd buses in Louisiana.

All of this was DAYS BEFORE the breakdown of commnictions. It was the FAILURE of the First Responders - the Mayor nd the Governor - that left all those people in NO, many, many, many of them under sea level. They FAILED to evacuate the hospitals. They FAILED to evacuate the elderly from the nursing homes.

Enough of your excuses and lies. The failure that was prime cause for most of the deaths in NO was the LOCAL failure to evacuate.

Katie

Check it out - the Mayor's cover up has begun. The NO emergency plan was freely availble to access on the Web (but I bet you never checked it out, you would rather spout political nonsense rather than deal with administrative facts.)

But now the Plan is not available.

Luckily the key paragraph was saved by someone who expected such a cover--up

"As noted previously, the City of New Orleans posted an official emergency plan on its website:

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26.

Fortunately, knowing this might happen, I saved the relevant portion:

"Conduct of an actual evacuation will be the responsibility of the mayor of New Orleans. ...The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas. ...Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life-saving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedure as needed. ...Approximately 100,000 citizens of New Orleans do not have means of personal transportation."

Katie, THAT was the central failure. THAT is what was responsible for most of the deaths in NO. You continue to wriggle and squirm, but basically you are lying. Lying to yourself.

No John, enough of your lies...

The federal government has demonstrated it resources and capabilities post Rita.
Millions of gallons of water, tons of foods, medical staff and supplies were at the ready, caravaning into the disaster regions in lines MILES long, even as the rain was still falling.

And the "Local and state" authorities in texas demonstrated thier capabilities prior to Rita.
"Local and state authorities" in texas, even with the help of the 82nd airborne (federal) botched evac even after watching NOLAS evac.
Not because they are incompetent, but because there is only so much that can be done. Even bearing that in mind, Texas was not evacuated in even as organized a manner as NOLA was. Nola Instituted contraflow, and had a large enough fuel supply to evacuate MORE people than texas. And they did it alone, without the feds. Without the example of Katrina to work from. Had the section of storm that flooded st charles landed on houston, and no relief been available, THE SAME THING WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

The shining evac example in texas is galveston, the mayor there began organising volunteers immediately after katrina to make sure her town, pop 60 thousand would not fuck up. And it did not. but she never had a million and a half people to evac in the first place so she had a chance for success.

You are displacing your blame, hopefully because in london there is money available for removing people from danger just in case, but it shows a fundamental ignorance of how america actually works. Changing it would be good, but that would mean we would have to stop blaming poor people for thier situation, and we probably will not ever do that. We just ain't that nice.

People drowned. Nothing to do with food or water supplies. Everything to do with failure to evacuate.

How many people starved to death or died of thirst anyway ? Can you point to a SINGLE report in any of the media that shows, say, twenty deaths from this cause ?

Against how many people drowned because they were in areas below sea level ?

Get real. Don't stay stuck on stupid.

"Since I saw a very similar article appear more than a week and a half ago, and there have not been any answers to the authenticity of the claims, Nor any acknowledgement on the rights part, of two actual budgets. Which leads me to think that perhaps this is another attempt to scapegoat. I will reserve judgement. I would think that by now in this antibush frenzy, the right wing apologists would have left no stone unturned in thier haste to absolve thier leader. If there was indeed Corps of engineer money spent on a fountain, ALL MEDIA would have reported it. Yet if tourism money was spent on a fountain, or a marina it would not make a very good story at all. Hence the non follow up. Perhaps the levee boards records were destroyed in the flood and the truth will come out later, and then I will eat my words, but until then, I will just hope for a NUETRAL investigation.

Homeland security is after all the be all end all for this admin, and they seem to be mucking it up a bit, don't they?"

Responsibility, by office and by their own plan, settled squarely on the Mayor. Responsibility for first response in Louisiana, falls squarely on the local, parish and state occificals, headed up by Gov. Blanco. Gov. Blanco, by the way, has already been caught on recording devices admitting she screwed up at the start and has been playing catch-up n the whole mess. This leaves federal agencies in the tertiary position.

Now, let us drag the time-line into this exchange. The levee breach did not occur under well after the hurricane -- all parties have admitted that they thought Alabama and Mississippi were going to be the core of the emergency effort. It was not until the levee breached that New orleans became the focus. The biggest reason the effort in New Orleans went off the tracks is that the locals created a disaster through neglect and misuse of funds, as evidenced by their performance on the ground and the indictments extant *PRIOR* to Katrina.

Now, New Orleans had a plan and a Mayor who had responsibility. The plan, in part, worked brilliantly. However, the ignored their prior experience and made the Superdome and Convention Centers havens of last resort, even thought they had not improved their utility as such in the eight(?) years since the last hurricane, nor in the year since the last close call, not even in the five months since the hurricane evacuation drill told them they had weaknesses and issues in their current plan -- little things like insufficient food, water and fuel stockpiled at the sites to handle a 3-4 four day stay. This was later exacerbated by their refusal to allow the Red Cross in since that "might make the people too willing to stay" in their shelters.
As for the Levee board, they are already on the hook for $500,000 meant to develop an improved evacuation plan -- they spent it on a study of the Lake Ponchitran causeway. The state homeland security team is already under indictment for misuse of funds and embezzlement. They would appear to have done something other than the intended use for the $7.3 million dollar grant in 2003 for improved first responder communication gear, based on the simple observation that it hadn't been improved. Not that there were that many first responders to worry about -- Most of the police walked off the job, with 20% out and out quitting during the emergency response.

Meanwhile, the feds, having to deal with a damaged area the size of the United Kingdom, complete with flooded roads, downed trees, etc., got to the city in the customary 72 hours. Florida doesn't seem to have much trouble with that time-frame, so why does Louisiana? Could it be Florida takes the storms seriously and Louisiana doesn't? They couldn't fly into New Orleans naval air station, as I did years ago, since its at a heady elevation fo 5 feet above sea level and definately would have taken a great deal of effort to clear. Same with the internation and municipal air ports. Only option would be to scout out roads, do what you can with choppers and make do.

Okay John since you are sort of thick, I will just pretend for your sake that EVERYONE drowned, the rows of bodies pictured in the hospitals, wrapped neatly in dry sheets, the Folks in wheelchairs pictured on the front pages of every paper in the world, the folks in the dry nursinghomes run by nuns, the people in the makeshift graves on dry sidewalks in the french quarter. The People covered in blankets on the highway captured by newscasters, the people in the makeshift morgue in the Convention center, those folks in the superdome, that nice man still seated in his lawn chair, the guy sitting dead on his dry front porch. DROWNED. arguing with you is clearly futile. And guess what, since every body drowned in the storm, our argumant is over, I did not win and you did not win.

After Rita, portions of Louisiana that have never flooded flooded up to 8 ft. that could have happened in houston that that quadrant of the storm hit houston, in fact if Rita had hit Houston as a Cat 5 or even a cat 4 which was predicted, homes would have been flooded to the rooftops.
And guess what John, they would have drowned there too. Because Houston was not completely empty either. there were at the least estimate, a million and a half people left. And it would have been a tragedy, certainly, but ya know what? thems the breaks.
Several hundred people died in MI and AL Directly from the hurricaine. Are we blaming the governors of those states? Are we blaming Bush? NO and NO. We just feel terrible for those people.

What people are angry about is the slow reponse which led to the dehydration, panic, near starvation and unneccesary death destruction and criminal behavior, and we have the right to be angry, because what if something happens where there is no warning? How many MORE people will die? We may not always have ANY opportunity to prepare, but will ALWAYS need to respond.

Now for the last time, there were not enough buses to even make a dent in the NO population... Only 15,000 could have been moved pre Katrina. Which 15,000 then? Are you willling to decide that for Mayor Nagin? Do you not get that the buses were in "high ground" and ready to move people after the storm, except the damn levees broke."

How hard would it have been to pull the busses back to say, Baton Rogue and use them after the storm had passed? Who says the buses can't come back once they have dropped off the first 15,000? Definationally, you can't be on "high ground" if you are below sea-level. Likewise, how can the buses be "ready to move people" when you have already absolved Mayor Nagin for abandoning them to the storm since he didn't have enough bus drivers? Your arguements don't stand muster.

"Do you not get that NO and FEMA had together conceeded that NO plans for disaster post leveee were COMPLETELY BEYOND NOs capacities?"

Which is why monies had been provided for them to develop a better plan. Too bad the locals used that money for another purpose. Congress has been afte NOLA to get serious about this since at least 2003, if not before. Too bad the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans lacked any sort of sense of urgency on the matter.

"Do you not get that many of the buses you are so obsessed about were used to transport people TO the superdome? Do you not get that there were 3 days of supplies in the dome? People were asked to bring thier own, yes, but they were there nonetheless. And prior to the destruction of the water supply, water was available to the occupants of both the convention ctr and the superdome. "

The problem -- the fact you keep ignoring -- is that this is a replay of the what happened last time. You neglect to mention that Ray nagin cut a "public service announcement" telling the People of NOLA they were "on their own." Throw in the fac that he has all but moved to Houston, enrolling his kids in school out there, and you might get the idea that Mayor Nagin was a little too interested in himself and not in the welfare of the people of New Orleans. FEMA, contrary to what you seem want us to infer, is *NOT* a first responder - never was, never will be.

Katie:

WAPO on New Orleans, but buses and evacuation:

"In the months before the storm, the city's emergency planners did debate the challenges posed by these numbers, which are much higher than in other hurricane-prone parts of the country, such as Florida. Because a rapid organization of so many buses would have been impractical, the city's emergency managers considered the use of trains and cruise ships."

Cruise ships?? CRUISE SHIPS? this is even richer than Ray Nagin demanding the whole of the Greyhound Bus line. "Hey, Princess Cruise Lines... I want you to recall all your vessels and turn them over to me -- just sail past the hurricane and drop 'em off at the pier! Now!"

Ray Nagin was about as useful as teats on a boar hog.

Ray Nagin has admitted delaying the mandatory evacuation of New Orleans for tourist revenue based reasons. The emergency response plan makes clear that anything above a two is something to be feared: "Tidal surge, associated with the "worst case" Category 3, 4 or 5
Hurricane Scenario for the Greater New Orleans Metropolitan Area, as
determined by the National Weather Service (NWS) Sea, Lake and
Overland Surge from Hurricanes (SLOSH) Model, could cause a
maximum inundation of 20 feet above sea level in some of the parishes
in the Region, not including tidal effects, wind waves and storm rainfall."

Now, from this same document, under assumptions, bullet point #5, "The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles.
School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles
provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation
for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in
evacuating."

Thusly, we can demonstrate that Ray Nagin should have known that a Cat 3,4 or 5 storm warranted an evacuation -- an evacuation he delayed due to the expense and tourist reasons.

Along with this, at bullet point #14, under assumtions: "Hospitals, nursing homes, group homes, etc. will have pre-determined
evacuation and/or refuge plans if evacuation becomes necessary. All
facilities will have approved Multi-Hazard Emergency Operations Plans
as mandated by the State of Louisiana, Dept. of Health and Hospitals
(DHH). Before operating permits are given to homes/hospitals,
emergency precautions are to be taken, such as the placement of
emergency supplies and equipment (i.e., generators and potable water)
on upper floors."

Another brach of the state/local bureaucracy heard from... wonder how little the bribe had to be to pass this requirement.

#17. As a hurricane causes the need for a mass evacuation from the
Southeastern area, the Governor will declare a state of emergency that
will require host parishes outside the risk area to open designated
shelters.

The folks in Gretna ingnored this one, unto the point of firing on evacuees.

#22 "As a hurricane approaches land, high winds and rising water will affect
evacuation routes, making travel hazardous. Evacuation orders will
take this into account and provide for evacuation routes to be closed at
the point at which travel would become hazardous."

Hence, Mayor Nagin should have known not to delay his evacuation order and DID SO ANYWAY.

If you wish to read the rest...

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf

"Responsibility, by office and by their own plan, settled squarely on the Mayor. Responsibility for first response in Louisiana, falls squarely on the local, parish and state occificals, headed up by Gov. Blanco. Gov. Blanco, by the way, has already been caught on recording devices admitting she screwed up at the start and has been playing catch-up n the whole mess. This leaves federal agencies in the tertiary position."

Yes he was responsible for instituting evac, which he did. As well as ANY other mayor would have. And more smoothly than Houston was able to three weeks later.

As for Blanco, it's very likely she willing ly took blame, because there were mistakes made, of course there were. any decent person would do the same... Why hasn't FEMA? Why are there no federal employees willing to deviate from the Local state and federal officials line and simply state, this was MY responsibility?

"Now, let us drag the time-line into this exchange. The levee breach did not occur under well after the hurricane -- all parties have admitted that they thought Alabama and Mississippi were going to be the core of the emergency effort. It was not until the levee breached that New orleans became the focus. The biggest reason the effort in New Orleans went off the tracks is that the locals created a disaster through neglect and misuse of funds, as evidenced by their performance on the ground and the indictments extant *PRIOR* to Katrina."

And you know this how? Are you saying that NO was given enough money to Actually build a cat 10 levee and spent it on strippers and poker? And that the fact that federal maintenece allocations for the levy were cut by 40% during bushes terms has NOTHING to do with levees being in a state of disrepair? That it is ALL graft and no underfunding?

"Now, New Orleans had a plan and a Mayor who had responsibility. The plan, in part, worked brilliantly. However, the ignored their prior experience and made the Superdome and Convention Centers havens of last resort, even thought they had not improved their utility as such in the eight(?) years since the last hurricane, nor in the year since the last close call, not even in the five months since the hurricane evacuation drill told them they had weaknesses and issues in their current plan -- little things like insufficient food, water and fuel stockpiled at the sites to handle a 3-4 four day stay. This was later exacerbated by their refusal to allow the Red Cross in since that "might make the people too willing to stay" in their shelters. "

The last hurricane drill was conducted by FEMA darling, and the Food was not stockpiled because under FEMA dollrs, they can buy it cheaper, and move it faster than a local governement could. If there were other cities in america who keep food stockpiles, I would be willing to blame NO, but since there are not, I won't. Hospitals were prepared with disaster provisions, 3 days is required by fed regulation, and there ended up being enough to stretch to seven.

"As for the Levee board, they are already on the hook for $500,000 meant to develop an improved evacuation plan -- they spent it on a study of the Lake Ponchitran causeway. "

were they studying EVACUATION as it relates to the cause way?

"The state homeland security team is already under indictment for misuse of funds and embezzlement. They would appear to have done something other than the intended use for the $7.3 million dollar grant in 2003 for improved first responder communication gear, based on the simple observation that it hadn't been improved."

I will just let ya know again now that NO had a triple redundant comm plan, that is better than most cities. My state too, recieved that communications inprovemnet grant, a much larger amount actually, with a stipulation that we are to wait unltil the FEDERAL communications commission designates a universal spectrum for emergency use. They have apparently been too busy to get on that. We have not spent the money yet either. Is there really an indictment about that communications money? Because in my state it has been GRANTED but we will not actually get it until communications are made universal.

" Not that there were that many first responders to worry about -- Most of the police walked off the job, with 20% out and out quitting during the emergency response."

The police became the only emblem of authority, they were targets. Yet most of them did NOT WALK OFF THE JOB! Most of them worked an extremely hellish 7 day shift without a break, or a radio to speak to other police.And shame on you, you might have quit too after that ordeal was over. Those that did walk off, are not the whole police force. And even if they were, they never did sign up to spend seven days as a walking target for a civil servant salary. Had thier ONLY duty been to keep order, perhaps they cpould have done so. But they were rescuers, doctors, communications runners, searchers, security guards and every damn other thing.

"Meanwhile, the feds, having to deal with a damaged area the size of the United Kingdom, complete with flooded roads, downed trees, etc., got to the city in the customary 72 hours. Florida doesn't seem to have much trouble with that time-frame, so why does Louisiana? Could it be Florida takes the storms seriously and Louisiana doesn't?"

Or and let me help ya understand here, could it be that Mississippi and Alabama had water that receeded, and made some of thier food salveagable? Could it be, and I know this is a crazy Idea, that they have a LOWER POPULATION CONCENTRATION making mass hysteria much less likely?

"They couldn't fly into New Orleans naval air station, as I did years ago, since its at a heady elevation fo 5 feet above sea level and definately would have taken a great deal of effort to clear. Same with the internation and municipal air ports. Only option would be to scout out roads, do what you can with choppers and make do."

The thing with choppers, is there are big ol' HELIPADS on rooftops all over louisiana. They can drop food, communications equipment, medicine, staff and yes, even people at a moments notice. And by the 72 hour mark, the roads were clear enough that reporters were able to drive in with no problem. Why couldnt a New mexico nat guard escorting a red cross truck? Oh because they did not get there til day 7.

"Ray Nagin has admitted delaying the mandatory evacuation of New Orleans for tourist revenue based reasons. The emergency response plan makes clear that anything above a two is something to be feared:"

But dread, the DELAY of the evacuation was really not the CAUSE of the problem... NAGIN got a larger percentage of people out more quickly than houston. end of story.
This was a somewhat valid argumant to an average person, BEFORE we watched houston do a worse job, with federal help. and more time.

"(DHH). Before operating permits are given to homes/hospitals,
emergency precautions are to be taken, such as the placement of
emergency supplies and equipment (i.e., generators and potable water)
on upper floors."

All of that was done. there was only a basement generator in charity, built long before that regulation, and charity was stocked with MANY portable generators and enough fuel to keep them going for 5 days, when only three are required by fed law.

"#17. As a hurricane causes the need for a mass evacuation from the
Southeastern area, the Governor will declare a state of emergency that
will require host parishes outside the risk area to open designated
shelters."

Most outlying shelters were filled to capacity before the hurricaine even made landfall. The shelters had been designated, opened and filled by the time local authorities lost communications.

Jim Ausman: GOP, Step aside and let the grownups run the show again.

The grownups? Would that be Peanut Jimmy and Slick Willy?

One of these guys brought humiliation to America with his weak-kneed foreign policies, and the other brought ignominy on the presidency with his weak will and blatant lies.

America is sick of the party of hate, the party of war, the party of anger, the party of irrational Fundamentalism.

Surely, 3 out of 4 of those descriptions are far more suited to the Democratic party than the Republicans. Have you never read or heard the liberal fundamentalists spewing out their hate and anger on Democrat-supporting leftwing websites and media outlets against the president?

Although the liberal media have succeeded in smearing Bush with blame for the NO disaster, I’m confident the investigations will reveal the utter incompetence of the local Democratic authorities in this crisis.

Jim Ausman:

It’s actually 4/4 for the Democrats

WW1 - Wilson, Democrat;

WW2 Roosevelt, Democrat;

WW2, Truman, Democrat;

atomic bomb, Truman, Democrat;

Korean War, Truman, Democrat;

Vietnam War - Kennedy and Johnson, Democrats

Tut, tut, those war-mongering Democrats!

Katie:

"Responsibility, by office and by their own plan, settled squarely on the Mayor. Responsibility for first response in Louisiana, falls squarely on the local, parish and state occificals, headed up by Gov. Blanco. Gov. Blanco, by the way, has already been caught on recording devices admitting she screwed up at the start and has been playing catch-up n the whole mess. This leaves federal agencies in the tertiary position."

Yes he was responsible for instituting evac, which he did. As well as ANY other mayor would have. And more smoothly than Houston was able to three weeks later.

As for Blanco, it's very likely she willing ly took blame, because there were mistakes made, of course there were. any decent person would do the same... Why hasn't FEMA? Why are there no federal employees willing to deviate from the Local state and federal officials line and simply state, this was MY responsibility?

Actually, Katie, they have, but you've been so wrapped up in your MOVEON.ORG activities to pay attention. The FEMA head was sacked and the FEMA response graded as inadequate in parts. this does not mitigate the dact that FEMA is not a first responder and that the foundation of this was laid by the locals.

"Now, let us drag the time-line into this exchange. The levee breach did not occur under well after the hurricane -- all parties have admitted that they thought Alabama and Mississippi were going to be the core of the emergency effort. It was not until the levee breached that New orleans became the focus. The biggest reason the effort in New Orleans went off the tracks is that the locals created a disaster through neglect and misuse of funds, as evidenced by their performance on the ground and the indictments extant *PRIOR* to Katrina."

And you know this how? Are you saying that NO was given enough money to Actually build a cat 10 levee and spent it on strippers and poker? And that the fact that federal maintenece allocations for the levy were cut by 40% during bushes terms has NOTHING to do with levees being in a state of disrepair? That it is ALL graft and no underfunding?

First of all, there is no such thing as a "Cat 10 Hurricane. Secondly, if you are unaware of the level of corruption in the "Big Easy,' you haven't been paying attention. Louisiana gets more money for Corps. of Engineers than California, to the tune of a half billion dollars difference. Thirdly, its been reported recently that the storm surge was insufficient to do the amount of damage demonstrated, suggesting a design flaw or poor construction -- both local matters. As a matter of fact, a number of marginal CoEng.projects have been pushed by LA representatives over the objections of the Corps, monies that very much could and should have gone to the levees.

"The last hurricane drill was conducted by FEMA darling, and the Food was not stockpiled because under FEMA dollrs, they can buy it cheaper, and move it faster than a local governement could. If there were other cities in america who keep food stockpiles, I would be willing to blame NO, but since there are not, I won't. Hospitals were prepared with disaster provisions, 3 days is required by fed regulation, and there ended up being enough to stretch to seven."

Let us start with NYC, which, until 9/11, was near mocked, with folks saying that Giuliani had a fetish for disaster planning, with multiple command posts and contingency plans. Likeiwse, I am willing to wager that FL (hurricanes) and CA (earthquakes) are fully stocked and ready for the next problem.

your rebuttals to the plan are incomplete and weak. What is your fetish for blaming the Feds for the city, parish and local authorities? Nagin admitted he should have called for a mandatory evacuation earlier -- the plan agrees with that, Blanco admits she muffed the early contact with the Feds, suggesting ignorance and incompetance on her part.

"#17. As a hurricane causes the need for a mass evacuation from the
Southeastern area, the Governor will declare a state of emergency that
will require host parishes outside the risk area to open designated
shelters."

Most outlying shelters were filled to capacity before the hurricaine even made landfall. The shelters had been designated, opened and filled by the time local authorities lost communications

'Cept for Gretna, which didn't allow evacuees over the bridge. NYC can have 9/11 without incident -- the crime rate was near 0 for that day, despite the police all being at the WTC -- but New Orleans can't even buy a unified radio system, but that's the FEDS fault?

Awwwww, c'mon, 6CP... lets not confuse the poor fella with anything as complicated and esoteric as facts and history. It will get in the way of his rants.

6CP:

It’s actually 4/4 for the Democrats

WW1 - Wilson, Democrat;

WW2 Roosevelt, Democrat;

WW2, Truman, Democrat;

atomic bomb, Truman, Democrat;

Korean War, Truman, Democrat;

Vietnam War - Kennedy and Johnson, Democrats

Tut, tut, those war-mongering Democrats!

Posted by: 6countyprod at September 25, 2005 11:01 PM

Christ... I am not going to get you all to listen to any sense, you really know very little other than your save bushes reputation at any cost, even if that cost is truth websites.

I am not a skeevy screaming liberal waiting patiently for Ben Cohen to tell me what to say. I know what I am talking about.

Nolas Evac went according to plan, bad or good, before the hurricaine hit. It went smoothly until the requested and much needed federal respources did not show up. that is when Blanco and Nagin began to deviate from thier plans. and falter. And cotinued to falter for days while Michael brown insisted everything was being done. Blancos requests were NOT totally vague, she asked for communications, Food, Water, Medicine, More search and rescue, And a means to begin evac into large shelters that NOLA could not have provided without federal help.
Bush and Blanco stated in two seperate press conferences that the HMS comfort had been dispatched before the hurricaine and was already on its way from baltimore. It did not leave port for two days after that conference. Blanco did not have the power to disapatch that ship on her own. who told her it was on its way? Nagin? I think not. FEMAS critical communications caravan was not released until friday after the hurricaine. Water food and Ice was not allowed entrance because the city was in lockdown, because that is what you do when complete lawlessness spreads. You do not allow trucks of VOLUNTEER CIVILIANS to be put in danger in that manner. Had they had military escorts, not to provide law and order, but to provide protection for volunteers they could have gone through.

What is the mitigatating factor behind the turning point in NOLA? The point when it went from total mismanagement to a salveagable situation? I think that you righties and I can agree on the fact that it was General Honore. And what did he do that turned the corner? He Martialed federal resources, which blanco did not have the authority to do. And got them the hell into NOLA and took responsibility. He was able to get things done immediately. He acted like the head of the federal emergency management is supposed to do. He did browns job. And he did it very well. He asked blanco pointed questions, and figured out which resources to martial and where, and then he got them there. Apparently he realised that for governor blanco to ask for food means get me some damn food, not I need 167 42 pallet airdrops of MREs and E H2O fs Dropped at 347lon. and 64 lat. at 1600 hrs 52 mn 41 sec. but I do not want them dropped without my express orders. And until I figure out howw to ask for them in just this way. That is something that any FEMA head should know. Thats why they make the big bucks. It is thier JOB. As together as Guiliani was, he too was saying things like, GET ME WATER! and not asking in writing for the correctl military terminology for water. Nor was he specifying delivery methods, because that is not his job.

Why would Bush, in these horrifying times of terrorism, hire his advance man to head FEMA? That would be like me hiring my babysitter to give my kid brain surgery. STUPID!!!!

Katie

Just read the timeline. The MAJORITY of deaths in NO were by drowning. There was nothing the FEDS under Honore or anyone could do about that because it had occurred early on, on the Monday. If you add up ALL the non-drowned bodies at the Superdome and the Convention Centre and on the overpass you would not get past 50.

The blk of the NO deaths were by drowning becse the Mayor and Governor failed to evacuate, thousands and thousands of people were left in areas way below sea level. Staying behind in Houston was a calculated risk, there was not going to be complete inundtion of nearly all the city. Allowing people to stay behind in most of NO, including the elderly in nursing homes, was criminal negligence.

All US emergency planning is based on the principle of First Responders. They failed. Heck, they didn't even announce a "mandatory" evacuation until too late, and they then totally failed to implement it. How many people did Nagn bus out of NO ? ZERO. With 500 buses in the city, 60 per bus, that is 30,000 even for one run. He did not even move people to high grond inside the city. He was not ORDERING people to get out, to take their neighbors if they could. He and Blanco behaved like deer in the headlights. You trying to blame all the deaths that caased in NO on FEMA is plain sick as well as stupid.

John, you know what you are being told, you do not know whow it actually is here in the US.
Nolas Evac was planned alongside FEMA, as are the evacs of every major sity and most smaller ones. It went more or less according to plan. that is because AMERICA is unprepared, not just NOLA. It is because we lack the ability to use our resources correctly that this happened. That is actually why we have this mystical DEPARTMENT OF EMERGENCY MANGEMENT. Oddly enough, in theory, they are in existence ONLY to manage emergencies. And NO actually evacuated BETTER than Femas models thought they would. Buses were mobilized Pre landfall to take people to the Superdome. Not everyone took them. Drownings in fast rising water can't really be avoided, and they would have happened in houston too, in the event that a cat 5 storm surge would have flowed up into galveston bay. Because contrary to what you think, houston was not empty either. And they had all the resources of the army at thier disposal.

Yes the majority of the deaths may have been drowning, but we will not know that until the autopsies have been done. But at any rate NOT ALL OF THEM WERE. A very good number were due to bungling. Stop pretending that is not so.

Yes First responders are an integral part of our disaster response, yet this administration has cut thier budgets. Why is that? Why did Clinton start the COPS program and Bush finish it, even though it was successfull? Why does AMERICA, not just Nola have FEWER firefighters, Paramedics and Hospital beds than it did PRE 9/11? Can we really expect results out of nothing?

Our disaster preparedness is not better than pre 9/11. It is worse, it is worse because Bush Hired CRONIES like brown and chertoff to run it.

There are probably only 6 or 7 dozen people in america with the experience to properly run FEMA or DHS, Many of them will not work for this administration, and the ones that will are not even asked, because they are not yes men. They cannot be yes men and run strategic response capably at the same time. The job requires juevos. Mark my words, when Honore exhibits signs of disloyalty, he will be marginalized.

We have HUNDREDS of small cities that are county seats in america, with populations of 100 thousand or less, but contain strategic elements to our food supply, energy and chemical industries. These towns are equipped with fewer first responders than pre 9/11 to a letter. Usually only a Dozen or so vehicles, depending on thier proximity to a freeway. They do not call thier governors first in an emergency, nor thier mayors, which are frankly pretty much ceremonial in a small town. they call FEMA.

In my own large city, we call FEMA first, THEN the governor. We are able to mobilize ANY local resource with clearance from either FEMA or the Governor, this is in case the governor is missing in the emergency. Fema has the clearance to mobilize FEDERAL resources, not the governor. The governor is supposed to ask for them, yes. And Blanco did. But if Blanco had drowned, FEMA could have still made food drops without opening itself up to law suits.

Food drops ? Are you crazy ? What is the point of dropping food into floods ?

There WAS more food and water available to be shipped to the Convention Centre and the Superdome. The Governor refused to let it through, refsed to send Nationl Guard escorts.

But at least you seem to be admitting that the main cause of deaths was not starvation or thirst. You hve chnged tck. It was drowning tht was the main cse. Because NO was not evacuated properly. Partly the reslt of complacency among the citizenry, who had 80% car ownership and should have helped evacuate their less fortunate neighbours. Compounded by inefficiency by the Mayor and Governor who declared mandatory evacuation too late and did nothing to try to ENFORCE it, to support it with full use of all those buses, to scare the bejasus out of people so they focussed properly.

Try reading the forums at the NO Times-Picayune. They are very much out of step with your constant defence of the local First Responders. They are the ones who suffered, and they want Nagin's and Blanco's heads.

Period.

Well I am sure that this story in todays NO P.T will get headline coverage on the BBC and RTE today.

"Rumors of deaths greatly exaggerated
Widely reported attacks false or unsubstantiated"

NO Times Picayune

Mayor Nagin has done a disgraceful disservice to the people of NO, and to all African-Americans. His panache for hyperbole has back-fired, and he will make a ridiculous spectacle at the inquiries. Looking forward to all the facts coming out.

Just read an interesting piece in the NY Times. If the attitude of Blacks in New York is anything to go by, and following the Democratic fiasco in NO and LA, it would appear that the Democrats are going to be spending a loooong time out in the cold.

Katie:

"I am not a skeevy screaming liberal waiting patiently for Ben Cohen to tell me what to say. I know what I am talking about."

Riiiiiight... and your belief that state and local authorities are blameless, despite having both authority over and responsibility for the evacuation and immediate response to the crisis is just coincidence. (As a complete aside, I prolly dislike Bush as much as you, just for a completely unrelated set of reasons -- excoricate him on something that will stick, rather than this trumped up nonsense and quit assuming others motives, esp. since you don't like similar treatment.)

"Yes First responders are an integral part of our disaster response, yet this administration has cut thier budgets. Why is that? Why did Clinton start the COPS program and Bush finish it, even though it was successfull? Why does AMERICA, not just Nola have FEWER firefighters, Paramedics and Hospital beds than it did PRE 9/11? Can we really expect results out of nothing?"

Oh, I dunno, lesse. Can't think of anything, other than it was a five year program with a sunset clause built into it legislatively when Clinton signed it. Likewise, funding LOCAL police is not a FEDERAL responsibility.

"Our disaster preparedness is not better than pre 9/11. It is worse, it is worse because Bush Hired CRONIES like brown and chertoff to run it. "

Remind me again, when was Brown hired and when did the "bungling" begin -- prior FEMA relief efforts under Bush have not been bungled, so why this one? How can FEMA do so well in FL and so poorly in LA? What could make such a difference, eh? Could it be that Nagin and Blanco don't run anything in Florida and didn't take the storm as seriously as it ought have been, mayhaps?

Katie:

A few quotes and facts for you to mull, from John Fund and the Wall Street Journal...

"Last year, Lou Riegel, the agent in charge of the FBI's New Orleans office, described Louisiana's public corruption as "epidemic, endemic, and entrenched. No branch of government is exempt." "

"Louisiana ranks third in the nation in the number of elected officials per capita convicted of crimes... In just the past generation, the Pelican State has had a governor, an attorney general, three successive insurance commissioners, a congressman, a federal judge, a state Senate president and a swarm of local officials convicted. Last year, three top officials at Louisiana's Office of Emergency Preparedness were indicted on charges they obstructed a probe into how federal money bought out flood-prone homes. Last March the Federal Emergency Management Agency ordered Louisiana to repay $30 million in flood-control grants it had awarded to 23 parishes. "

"As for New Orleans, no city in America would better serve its most vulnerable residents with a clean sweep of its institutions. Just this summer, associates of former mayor Marc Morial were indicted for alleged kickbacks involving public contracts. Last month the FBI raided the home and car of Rep. William Jefferson as part of a probe into allegations he had misused his office. "

"He notes that the Orleans Parish Levee Board allowed money to be diverted from levees into many other projects. Those included a local casino, a convention center and a Mardi Gras fountain. "We were trying to be good neighbors," former board member Jim Livingston (no relation to Bob) explained to me. "

Katie: "Yes First responders are an integral part of our disaster response, yet this administration has cut thier budgets. Why is that?"

Why? Because you need a basic understanding of "Washington-speak".

Let's say there's a Federal program that was funded this year for $10 billion. A politician (either party... take your pick) wants the funding to be increased to $15 billion. His opposition party says that's too much, but agrees that an increase is needed to mean COLA. So he proposes, say, $12 billion. They negotiate and settle on $13.5 billion. Then, the politician who wanted the $15 billion calls a press conference and makes the claim that the program was cut by $1.5 billion. The news media never reports that the "cut" is only a cut of the wish list amount. Considering how the news media operates these days, it's possible that they're too stupid to look up the current budget to see what is being spent and honestly don't know this is a smoke and mirrors trick to get sympathy.

Everyone else calls this an increase reached by compromise. Only Washington calls this a "cut".

Who's Stuck on Stupid?

YOu guys are ALL stuck on stupid. Not me. Every last one of you. The sun does not shine out of bushes ass. his hiring practices are negligent... and that is the NICEST thing I can say. This stupid almost cultlike loyalty you have. What gives? It is actually Okay for people to make mistakes now and again. And learn from them. But this freaky need of the right to applaud him at any cost, is only encouraging him to make MORE mistakes. Our country is being looted, and it is not by n@#$% in New Orleans, it is by the president and his cronies.

Mama Pajamas. not only is there less federal money for first reponse... not more but dems like to pretend it is less, (how do you fall for that btw, all ya hafta do is look it up in your citys website?) there are LESS POLICE, LESS FIREFIGHTERS and LESS PARAMEDICS, LESS NURSES, LESS HOSPITAL BEDS less as in hundreds LESS. FEWER. NOT AS MANY. SMALLER NUMBERS than there were four years ago.

This is not liberal hyperbole, this is fact. Plain and simple. Look up the numbers in your town. There are Fewer in New York, LA, Chicago, Boston and all over the damn country. And Likely FEWR in NEW ORLEANS too. Not to mention a skeleton national guard. That is why the commander of the NOLA nat guard mobilized the NM Nat Guard. Yet Fema did not approve them until Homore did.. That is why hundreds of firefighters from all over the country flew to fema HQ almost immediately, only to be given a day long sexual harrassment seminar and the useless duty of handing out fliers.
While they could have been first responding.
That is why communications equipment was mobilised from all over the country, and sat waiting for FEMAS orders to copter it in for DAYS.
FEMA did not even bring in its OWN mobile communications systems, they are kept packed in a trailer ready to go anywhere in a matter of hours, In the belly of a national guard chopper if need be. why did they NEVER get there?

The NOLA FIRST RESPONDERS WERE OVERWHELMED AND HAD NO COMMUNICATIONS CAPACITY WHATSOEVER! Its a bloody wonder they worked as long as they did. and it is no wonder they made mistakes. And not a one of you would have done better. And absolutely they need to be investigated, BUT SO DOES FEMA For Gods sakes. Perhaps we need to revisit our isolate and control philosophy, but the alternative to that is LARGE amounts of government spending. AND NOLA CANNOT BE BLAMED FOR HAVING A FEMA APPROVED AND AUTHORED EVACUATION POLICY. Houston Evaced earlier and got a smaller percentage of its people out. How do you explain that? Nagin should have gotten the tourists out, but where in the fuck was he gonna get the poor people out to? Nobody is addressing this. LA shelters were FULL, All of them. HOuston had not offered the astrodome as a just in case shellter.
The superdome, Convention center and hotels could have been sufficient, but crowded for five or six days until alternate shelter could have been arranged, if there were enough staff. The three thousand national guardsmen who were currently in Iraq or the ones who were packed and ready to drive in from NM would have sufficed, and made ALL the difference.

I guarantee you that the only thing going through the first responders' heads was "I have to maintain the illusion of authority until more help gets here." Meanwhile, hundreds of people a day were being plucked from thier rooftops, some of them in thier underwear, all of them hungry and scared and set down in front of the superdome, or the convention center and adding to the chaos. And to the challenge to the first responders of maintaining the illusion of authority.
The first responders themselves were hungry, terrified and worried about thier own homes, families and survival, and did not have the luxury of sleep for days.

Now you have spent days patronisingly insulting me and accusing me of blindly hating bush at any cost. of being a crazy moonbat, a nutcase and on and on. You rant and rant about the left politicising this, but I did not politicise this, I am calling it like I see it. And I see it from a pretty realistic perspective.

Bush could brobably poke your moms eye out on purpose with condi's stilletto heel and you'd still love him, but we have spent over 120 BILLION dollars on emergency preparedness in the last 4 years in this country, And Billions more on security. and we have moved BILLIONS more emergency preparedness dollars from local jurisdiction to federal. WE CAN AND SHOULD EXPECT MUCH BETTER. WE BOUGHT IT, IT IS OUR MONEY.

Honore came in and patched things up before Blanco ceded any authority more than what she had given orally and in writing while Brown and FEMA were supposedly constitutionally paralyzed, why was he able to do it? Bush did not invoke the Riot act. NO LEGAL CHANGE WAS MADE PRE HONORE AND IMMEDIATELY POST HONORE. yet Honore did not seem to be strangled by the constitution, unable to do anything. Why is that? Perhaps it is because that is a flimsy excuse? Because our constitution is not simply a dead document, it is a document on which we BASE our laws, and we try to discern the intent the framers had in mind when we make those laws. And we can all pretty much assume that Hancock and Paine and his buddys did not mean that it was government interference to give food to a person in another state if they were hungry. And we made and legislated FEMA to do just that.

And there were more than fifty non drowning deathts. when the autopsies are through we can speak of this again.

And for the last time, yes food could have been dropped, on high ground, or on floats, there were dry patches all over the city. We dropped food after the Tsunami did we not? Both on Dry patches and on floats in heavily flooded areas.

I really wish more evac had been done, And if I had my way, every city and town would have an evac grid, ample transport and alternative shelters ready to occupy at all times. This is all very expensive and is pie eyed liberal talk in this day and age. I am familiar with american disaster planning, and I can smell scapegoat here a mile away. There plan was actually typical. Better than typical. because it had FEMAS input ev ery step of the way. Except in implementation. Those soggy Buses took those who wanted to go, to the superdome. That is what florida does. The superdome did not flood.

FEMA knows they screwed up so they are determined to make NOLA take the fall. And I think NOLA has been through enough.

CNN : Louisiana Sen. David Vitter, a Republican, said Sunday he was "very supportive" of giving the military a lead role in response to major disasters.

"After Katrina, the moment we began to turn the corner was the moment we had thousands and thousands of uniforms and boots on the ground," he told CNN.

Vitter's Democratic counterpart, Sen. Mary Landrieu, said the military "has a key role to play" but was more cautious about diminishing local and state control.

"I'm not sure the governors association or all the mayors in America would be willing to sort of step aside," she said.

When governors and mayors are as incompetent as the Democrats in NO and LA, surely it is quite appropriate for those with a bit of sense to take over. Thank goodness for the US military and the federal agencies.

Michael Brown is still on the FEMA payroll, even after forced resignation... Brwnie it seems, Is now doing a "Heckuva" job in his new capacity, which is according to himself in his sham of testimony before congress, Investigating what went wrong.

That is not what happens in the real world when one is forced to resign for incompetence. But it is I am afraid, fairly typical of this administration.

And 6cprod, I agree that the Army does play an important role in disasters of this magnitude, but The US national guard plays a MUCH MORE important one. In fact that is thier purpose. And thier reason for existence. And the reason for thier lack of Presence In NO earlier, aside from LANGs presence in Iraq. Is Micheal Chertoff, Browns Boss, not approving thier presence inside NO city limits, citing that troops from other states lack preparedness to go into such a dangerous situation. Apparently, Iraq is a safe enough place for the US homefront Militias, but disasters back home can ONLY be run by our elite international forces? Strange world you think works correctly.

Katrina was SO huge that the Regular Army was maybe necessary either way, but we will NEVER know if the lawlessness could have been avoided with the early presence of national guard from states neighboring LA. Or the Full presence of LA forces. And we will never know if Federal Emergency assets could have been marshalled effectively enough to make a difference, because the moment is gone. And those assets were not directed competently. I can only imagine the frustration of Louisianas National guard troops, stuck in Iraq, watching thier home state being destroyed on the news, coming home on a short leave, and being informed that the protection of thier state, the very REASON they enlisted in the guard in the first place. Should not be thier duty. That should be left to the elite regular army, being paid more and not busy fighting overseas. How bizarre a reality is that? If this is what this "Investigation" nets, there is no reason AT ALL to have a national guard and we need to stop wasting our tax money on it. Immediately. And pay the guardsmen currently serving in the army in Iraq, Regular Army wages, and Full fledged army benefits and retirements. And the choice to say no, I joined the National Guard to protect MY nation, not someone elses, so I since I will no longer do that, I quit.

Not being an american, you may see it differently, I do not know if your armies are seperated between home and away troops like ours, but to the americans reading this... Does that seem like supporting our troops? Typical right wing troop supporting, it just does not go beyond the yellow ribbon bumper sticker on your car.

Katie:

"YOu guys are ALL stuck on stupid. Not me."

Uh-huh... its all of us and all of our citations and limks that are wrong, not you...

"The NOLA FIRST RESPONDERS WERE OVERWHELMED AND HAD NO COMMUNICATIONS CAPACITY WHATSOEVER!"

This, two years anfter a multi-million dollar grant to upgrade thier communication capacity...

"Not to mention a skeleton national guard."

There are ~12,000 National Guardsmen in Louisiana. ~3,000 were on duty out of state. Gov. Blanco could have activated those in remaining three bigade's worth of personnel at any time, on her own authority with no one else's say so. Had she been smart, she would have activated them prior to the storm, based on the emergency plan i posted that acknowledged anything freater than a Cat 2 storm could be disasterous.

"Now you have spent days patronisingly insulting me and accusing me of blindly hating bush at any cost. of being a crazy moonbat, a nutcase and on and on. You rant and rant about the left politicising this, but I did not politicise this, I am calling it like I see it. And I see it from a pretty realistic perspective."

Yes, all your insults and CAPTIAL LETTERS make you "realistic perspective" much clearer...

"Bush could brobably poke your moms eye out on purpose with condi's stilletto heel and you'd still love him"

Are you sure this isn't moonbat hyperbole on your part?

"And for the last time, yes food could have been dropped, on high ground, or on floats, there were dry patches all over the city. We dropped food after the Tsunami did we not? Both on Dry patches and on floats in heavily flooded areas. "

And how, pray tell, are the locals going to get from their rooftop perches and the like to the food? Likewise, Blanco and Nagin, who had control - there was no unified comand per-Honore - put a higher priority on getting / forcing people out, not making their lives more comfortable inside the city. It was the same reason *state* authorities did not allow the Red Cross and the Salavation Army into the city to provide food and relief at the Superdome.

"I am familiar with american disaster planning, and I can smell scapegoat here a mile away. There plan was actually typical. Better than typical. because it had FEMAS input ev ery step of the way. Except in implementation. Those soggy Buses took those who wanted to go, to the superdome. That is what florida does. The superdome did not flood."

Taking your statement at face value, anwer me this, since its only the third time I've asked it. Why does FEMA's plans and the leaders Bush's selected work so well in Florida these past five years and so poorly in Louisiana?

"Except in implementation."

Which is, for the first 72 hours (FEMA's typical response time) the LOCAL and STATE authorities responsibility.

"FEMA knows they screwed up so they are determined to make NOLA take the fall. And I think NOLA has been through enough."

Contrariwise. Nagin and Blanco know they screwed up and want FEMA to take the fall. Its politics eight hands around. If you listen to the folks who were in the Superdome who were interviewed, their anger is toward Blanco and Nagin, not FEMA. The biggest reason Nagin and Blanco want to shift blame is they want to be re-elected.

"And 6cprod, I agree that the Army does play an important role in disasters of this magnitude, but The US national guard plays a MUCH MORE important one. In fact that is thier purpose. And thier reason for existence. And the reason for thier lack of Presence In NO earlier, aside from LANGs presence in Iraq. Is Micheal Chertoff, Browns Boss, not approving thier presence inside NO city limits, citing that troops from other states lack preparedness to go into such a dangerous situation. Apparently, Iraq is a safe enough place for the US homefront Militias, but disasters back home can ONLY be run by our elite international forces? Strange world you think works correctly?"

Actually, the LANG answers first and foremost to Governor Blanco. As for other units, the initial focus was not LA, but Mississippi and Alabama and their NG units would have been deployed accordingly. Lastly, there was the small matter of the trifurcated, then bifurcated chain of command -- Nagin and the city forces, Blanco and the state and FEMA and the Feds. Nagin came around and started to cooperate but Blanco wanted "more time to think about it." Paralysis by analysis.

"Katrina was SO huge that the Regular Army was maybe necessary either way, but we will NEVER know if the lawlessness could have been avoided with the early presence of national guard from states neighboring LA."

Again, look at the time line. Bush declared early and all Blanco had to do was ask. She received what she asked for. If she didn't ask for the 40,000 men she later thought she needed, whose fault is that? You want to put the full blame on the Feds and, while their is plenty of blame to go around, the Feds were not the only problem. There were a number of things that Nagin and Blanco could have done better, starting with not diverting monies from levee work to other jobs, not putting in courrupt cronies into local and state emergency positions, activating the plan in a much more timely fashion and actually following the plan. Y'know, the little things.

Katie, looks like Michael is getting his revenge! Roll on the independent inquiries.

Dysfunctional Democrats. Catchy..., and true!

Sorry, Katie, forgot the link. Just in case you missed the report: DD's

6cprod...
I believe that LA has only 7,000 plus national guard troops. 3 thousand plus are in Iraq, that leaves about 4 thousand. They were deployed. That is what I have read. from several different sources. I could be wrong, but 12000 troops for a state that small, geographically, and populationwise homestly does seem like a lot.

I am watching on Cspan right now, the live feed of the sham of a hearing as it relates to the Katrina Disaster, and a speech/question has intrigued me, and you too may find it interesting. It answers better than I can a question you have chosen not to approve of the answermy own answers to. A questioner has asked Mr Brown, or Brownie, and I will paraphrase, but it will undoubtably be covered in its entirety in the LIBERAL media tomorrow. It is not likely that powerline will cover it, they may but chances are, only to smear the questioner.

He said basically, Why did my first responders have to work for ten days without any FEMA relief whatsoever, Why did they have to survive on Food looted from grocery stores, clothing looted from walmart and never have any fuel delivered. Why was there never any communications delevered? Why is it that my people survived for a nearly a week week with one single personal satellite phone as thier only communications? Why are the residents of my state still to this day living in Tents looted from walmart? Never mind trailer accomidations? Why has'nt Fema delivered livable tents by now?

The Questioner is the rep from southern MISSISSIPPI.
like I have said before, perhaps it is not all peace love and naked bunnies there? Maybe I was not lying to you that there are reports of VALID complaints from other states too.

That questioner also vocalized his concerned that nola was being made the scapegoat.

Brown has stated that the thing he would do differently, if he could is to give MORE FREQUENT PRESS UPDATES!!!??? and to force Blanco and Nagin to coordinate. And those were his first two excuses. He also has blamed lack of budget, bad contractors, unreliable subcontractors, and his staff being tired and overwhelmed, he has said that FEMA has been bled dry since allbaughs appointment, and since the melding of FEMA into the DHS umbrella. He said his trucks lacked Global positioning systems so there is no way he can possibly know what supplies he has and where. He stated that he has privately predicted a meltdown of this magnitude for some time. He said if he were braver he would have retired and went public with his fears (apparently he had not even gone so public as to email the approprations committe of his fears, and was chastised for that) But he has yet to say he has ANY PART OF THE BLAME.

All the while he has steadfastly spouted his standard federalist rhetoric, About how even though his department is penniless and completely lacks resources, the NO officials should not have lacked the resources to commandeer trains riverboats airplanes and buses to organize a full scale evac to god knows where. Because it is thier responsibility to handle the disasters, and his to stand there and look pretty until given orders.
Lack of resources is apparently a completely rational excuse for the FEDERAL government, but not for the sates.

He has stated he was given all he needed, and then at other times denied he had what he needed... He is a joke. Even the SUPER partisan republicans are tripping him up, and they are trying to lead him AWAY from recriminating himself, and by osmosis, the bush admin.

There have been some valid points about NOLAS involvemnet brought up, but there is nobody from Nola there to defend themselves, so we will see what they have to say.

"I believe that LA has only 7,000 plus national guard troops. 3 thousand plus are in Iraq, that leaves about 4 thousand. They were deployed. That is what I have read. from several different sources. I could be wrong, but 12000 troops for a state that small, geographically, and populationwise homestly does seem like a lot. "

From the National Guard website:

"Today's Louisiana Army and Air National Guard consists of 74 units spread among 43 cities and towns of the state and numbers some 11,500 Army and Air Guardsmen. As a result of various reorganizations the present Army Guard is composed of a State Headquarters and Headquarters Detachment, 204th Area Support Group, the 256th Separate Infantry Brigade, the 225th Engineer Group and various Medical, Maintenance, Aviation, Military Police, Armored Cavalry and Special Forces units and the 156th Army Band. "

Its amazing what you can find, factually speaking, with just a little effort.

Katie, I've just listened to Brown testifying before the committee.

The liberal media ought to be ashamed of itself. They talk a lot of what comes out of a horse's ass, and they have succeeded in sacrificing a good man for the sake of scoring a few political points. May God forgive for them for such hatred and animosity.

Ramble on Katie, I'm not listening anymore.

Katie, I've just listened to Brown testifying before the committee.

The liberal media ought to be ashamed of itself. They talk a lot of what comes out of a horse's ass, and they have succeeded in sacrificing a good man for the sake of scoring a few political points. May God forgive for them for such hatred and animosity.

Ramble on Katie, I'm not listening anymore.

Unfortunately, American news is a lot like McDonald's food -- processed, pre-packaged and generally a little overheated.

F'r'instance, how many retractions have been seen re: the "Lord of the Flies" stories they were circulating??

I am not understanding you guys, Are you thinking I have just seen a polluted liberal media ACCOUNT of the hearings? Actually I watched them. Uncut and unadorned by talking heads, it is a very handy way to get ones news actually. It makes it much easier to form ones OWN opinions. We have a network that does very little commentary, just shows events, speeches and deliberations live.

Or are you thinking that it was liberal media REPORTERS doing the questioning of Mr Brown?? It was eleven republican senators and I believe 2 0r 3 Democrats. By far the meanest bulldog, Shays is a republican.

The only part were brown sounded credible at all was his theatrical monologue at the beginning, the rehearsed pre written part.

And I have to say, having watched or listened to EVERY minute of the 9/11 commission hearings as well as reading the report, I am even more certain now that there needs to be an independant commision. While the senators are doing thier level best I am sure, they are not prepared or thorough enough to have done even a cursory background investigation before starting the hearings. This is a waste of time. Politicians cannot investigate other politicians.

And Dread, I stand corrected on the number of LANG troops, however the br Gen of the LANG has publicly stated that ALL available bodies were deployed, and that he had arranged with other states to get more ready, packed and minutes from the road at FEMAS okay. And other states NG commanders have verified this.

The tipping point was the failure to properly organise the evacuation of NO, or even to properly organise even basic safety at the Superbowl and then the Convention Centre. Everything else pales in comparison.

There was far worse physical devastation east of NO where the eye of the hurricane eventually struck, but relatively few deaths. By far the mjority of the deaths were concentrated in NO, and the subsequent suffering of tens of thosnds of people at the holding centres/de facto prisons.

Primary failure of the First Responders to operate their own evacuation plans.

John, All those points are completely valid, until you actually realize, that a full evac was not possible in the 56 hrs from the nat hurricane warnng til landfall, with the limited resources that nola had.
seriously. We just finished watching houstons botched Rita Evac.
Every single mayor I read interviewed said that thier town was 90 percent evacuated, yet the area they were talking about has a combined population of about 5 million and the highest estimates of evacuees I have seen was 2.9 million. That is a little under 60 % so either the media has lost a few sizeable towns that did not evacuate at all, or the Rita mayors are exxagerating just a bit to cover thier arses.

Now you must take into consideration, that once communications go, all disater planning goes to. The primary goal has to become crowd control until communications can begun again.

We all watched on TV and read our Newspapers as Texas did EVERYTHING Except grid evac and contraflow RIGHT, They made evac mandatory THE second they realized the storm was huge and coming thier way. they evaced ALL the vulnerable, they canvassed door to door to get an Idea who needed help, they recieved federal resources for evac amounting to millions of dollars in the form of Buses from all round the country, helicopters, paramedics and army personell carriers. There are at least 4 MAJOR freeways running out of the affected area. They did not do it alone and they did the best they could, yet people were stuck in massive gridlock for hours in the hot sun, many giving up and driving back home. some catching fire on the highway due to the overstrtched buses and still only about 60% were evaced. This is because , Our number of drivers has increased about twice as fast as our road capacity for the past few yrs. And public ond mass transport in our country is NIL when outside a metro area.

New orleans was projected to have 300,000 people left in it after Pam, yet the estimates I have seen range from 50-150 thousand after Katrina. Kathleen blancos blunder, of strongly urging evac saturday morning and making it mandatory the next, had the effect of an organized grid evac, which is what she should have done. and the fact that all the while there was contraflow, actually evaced a huge amount of people faster. I kind of hope for her sake it was planned that way.It is a sin that evac of the poor was not planned and paid for, federally, immediately upon learning of the dire nature of thier situation, which is actually years before any of the current officials were in office. But ESPECIALLY after the Bush first 4 years. Besides energy, the only TRULY robust part of our economy is real estate, financing has been deregulated so much that moddle class people think we can afford Bigger Newer houses than ever before, and in the past four years we have built like crazy all over the country. And in the nOLA area, that meant a whole lot less drainage land. and a whole lot more flood danger.

Nola could not have afforded a well organized ful evac on thier budget. And likey NEVER could.

Now a question that NOBODY in the media is asking, in fact I seem to be the ONLY person who is asking it, is where were they to be evacuated to? Those shelters of last resort that popped up in houston are COSTLY... not only in dollars but in lost revenue when being used for humanitarian reasons.During the pam test there were many discussions on what to do, but the Pam exercise was only funded through the exercize phase, the final phase of that exercize, the one where they were supposed to figure those things out, was never funded. I daresay a competent FEMA director would have raised holy hell with the media, senate and congress in regards to that particular funding cut. I think its important that we figure who cut it and why via investigation. I think the blame there lies squarely with FEMA as it was a FEMA project, not a new orleans one.

I really am not trying to be partisan, but fer f#$%cks sake! we can do much better than this.

I am VERY relieved to read that much of the crime and lawlessness was a manifestation of paranoia during a panic situation. Every thing that I have read about major disasters says that rumours mushroom in frightened crowds to mammoth proportion instantaneously. I was very angry all along that so many people were so squarely condemning the victims for looting, and suspected that more of the looting was for survival than the media was letting on. And suspected that the reason that so many of us were so willing to believe it was that we are racist.

I still think that the actual death toll that is not from drowning will be higher than we think, and am curious about what all the autopsies will say.

Hopefully this will be a lesson to us, and hopefully we will realize, that while New Orleans should have had a full evac plan, Katrina did happen after the city was nearly evaced. Not all disasters can be planned and anticipated, when a truly unexpected disaster happens anywhere else, we will be even more screwed. Because we will ALL be there. Not just the poor. And what happened in New orleans, if it happened in a full city, would be MUCH MUCH worse. Unless we invest in some true homeland security.

And hopefully we will realize that had the minimum wage been raised even once in the past eight years, many more people would have been able to afford to leave on thier own, without government help. Minimum wage increases affect not only minimum wage earners but all those jobs that are just a bit above minimum, and those are the wages of the folks who got left behind n NOLA.

Katie: "I really am not trying to be partisan, but fer f#$%cks sake! "

Yes, yes you are, from the very start of the thread, you have.

Katie, upon reading your last post, I have come to the conclusion that all your rants about not being a liberal partisan are just so much smoke. If nothing else your I'm the only one right and asking all the right questions" pap makes it obvious.

You openly ignore any facts that do not agree with your political end of sticking the Feds with 100% of the blame. The local and state level blunders, the corruption, the offers ignored (Amtrak trains, for one), the transfer of funds from levee to non-levee projects -- this is all of no weight in these discussions, since it gets in the way of your Bush-bashing.

"And hopefully we will realize that had the minimum wage been raised even once in the past eight years, many more people would have been able to afford to leave on thier own, without government help. Minimum wage increases affect not only minimum wage earners but all those jobs that are just a bit above minimum, and those are the wages of the folks who got left behind n NOLA."

Been reading the ACORN fliers again, eh? No tragedy to big to be turned into political grist. The fact is is that no evacuation is 100% and short of going door to door and making folks exit at gunpoint, you're never going to get one. But to suddenly whipsaw a hurricane aftermath into supporting the fallacious notion that atrtificially inflating the minimum waage is specious at best.

Dread, I'm sorry, but ARTIFICIALLY inflating Minimum wage? In a civil society, you actually do have to raise the minimum wage once in a while, nothing artificial about it. My own salary has gone up considerably in the past 8 yrs. As has yours I imagine. In low wage jobs however, salaries do not increase on thier own.
If you started working at a corporate nursing home as a certified nusing asst for 5.25USD an hour eight yrs ago, right after the last minimum wage increase and you have been an exemplary employee, your superiors like you and you are lucky enough to have gotten all of your annual optional 10c per hour Merit increases, your salary is now only 6.05 pr hour. That is hardly enough to keep up with inflation.

And say one nursing home closes, and you must go work for another, you start over at 5.25 again.

Like it or not, many of our most profitable and largest employers have pay structures like this, they are unnaturally profitable BECAUSE they pay thier employees as little as they can get away with.

Middle class taxpayers then, are stuck picking up the slack. We pay for the health care that those employees cannot afford, we pay for thier childrens school lunches as well as our own, we pay for thier day care and thier heating in the winter and the rent subsidies that they need, even though they work full time, and the jobs they do need doing AND are highly profitable for the company owners. And now we pay by watching them suffer in the NO heat and mold. with no water or food 5 days after a hurricaine that has been predicted for years. 8 yrs ago, when we last raised the minimum wage, they could have provided much of this for themselves. and its not that they do not work hard, they do. shouldn't hard work be enough to at least survive without taxpayer assistance. I am not saying that a walmart clerk should earn as much as a neurosurgeon, but shouldn't they earn enough to live?

And I am very sorry to dissapoint you dear, I have never heard of acorn. this is common sense. and common decency. and would mean that we could save a lot of tax money on social programs. and I am all for paying less taxes.

Stuff and nonsense. Outside of restaurant / bar jobs(where tips are part of the renumeration), try *finding* a minimum wage job. Even the fast food jockeys are at $7-9 and hour to start.

When you increase the labor rate, you are, essentially, inflating costs. What a given price bought yesterday will not buy the same today, not because supply and demand shifted, but by legislative fiat. This, in turn, has ramifications up and down the economic chain. Increased minimum wage generally ends up in a wage inflation not quite across the board, but across all wage earners, with a bit of delay. This, in turn, increases employer costs, both in tax contributions and in wages. This, in turn, raises prices, since the labor component has been inflated. Similarly, small business, along with the retail and service sector, usu. look to downsize their staffs, to maintain profitability. A small increase in unemployment results.

Being someone who audits HHA cost reports, among others, I have *never* seen a home health aid what made $5.25 an hour -- sorry, doesn't happen, thak you for playing.

Several cities have instituted "living wage" regulation and I know for a fact this sort of legislation has killed a chunk of Baltimore's economy. Liberals get all happy when they want to create these "living wage" zones, then never shop there because, as economic individuals, the legendary "rational man" of econ classes everywhere, they shop based on price.

Riddle me this, why not eliminate this raising the minimum wage to $20 USD an hour? If a small hike is so good, why not a big one?

HA HAHAHAHA!!!! you are funny darlin' seriously.

Look up Santa Fe NM, Almost completely low paying hospitality economy.
They instituted a 7.50 an hour living wage act.

Unemplyment is down close to a percent, Job Growth is up, faster than anywhere else in the state, and emergency public assistance requests are down almost 10% I JUST read that today.

If baltimores stats are not similar, I will eat my shorts.

EVERY SINGLE TIME MINIMUM WAGE HAS GONE UP IN THE USA THE ECONOMY HAS GROWN, NOT SHRUNK. That is because pwople at the lowest end of the pay scale, SPEND thier money, and put it back into the economy, usually into the lowest wage economic sectors, because that is what they can afford, this creates more jobs, and more profits. Emplyees AND employers win. It is a myth that raising the minimum wage hurts emplyers. Find me some data that says otherwise.

And I think that you are quite unaware that certified nursing assts in most of the country do not get much higher than 2 dollars an hour over minimum. and that is at best, and only experienced ones.All over the south, they start at the minimum wage, unless forced by a living wage act to start higher. In Large trauma centers, highly experienced ones can hope to make 10 or 11 dollars an hour, but that is at the VERY top of the pay scale, and requires years of service, in the same hospital. And CNAs are laid off very often, sometimes just to avoid moving them to the top of the pay scale. And those jobs are highly coveted amongst career CNAs. (Yes they do exist, you see sometimes poor people with children cannot EVER afford to go to school to better thier lot) Perhaps Baltimore is a highly unionized city and offers better pay than the rest of the country, but considering that baltimores cost of living is about medium, I highly doubt your figures are not anomalous. not that I think you are lying but maybe the organisation you work for has much better than average wage policys built in it. Because not all companies are greedy, they do not need a minimum wage. Minimum wage is for the people who without it, take advantage.

now that is not the same thing as saying that minimum wage should be 20 dollars an hour. not in the least. But every once in a while minimum wage HAS to go up. because everything else does. If we make it twenty to appease lil ol liberal me, why dont we make it 25 cents for you? People would still work for that you know. Because people need jobs. If for no other reason than to be eligible for welfare.

if you calculated min wage along with the inflation rate from about 72 on, it would be at least 19 an hour today. But that would likely hurt the economy, but maybe a dollar every few years? Is that unreasonable?

Wages need to keep pace with inflation, or poverty grows. end of story.

And yes Genious ADULTS, with CHILDREN do work at the very bottom of the pay scale. and they are not always upwardly mobile. Sometimes they stay near the minimum wage for thier entire careers.

"If baltimores stats are not similar, I will eat my shorts."

How would you like them prepared.

"EVERY SINGLE TIME MINIMUM WAGE HAS GONE UP IN THE USA THE ECONOMY HAS GROWN, NOT SHRUNK. That is because pwople at the lowest end of the pay scale, SPEND thier money, and put it back into the economy, usually into the lowest wage economic sectors, because that is what they can afford, this creates more jobs, and more profits."

Uh-huh... the last time the minimum wage was raised was in the middle of the tech bubble, which distorted the data. Also, while overall employment went up, those sector of employment most sensitive to minimum wage hikes(teens, unskilled labor, etc.) were adversely affected. The overall employment level is not a good indicator of the impact of a minimum wage hike, since it looks at *ALL* employment, not just those sectors sensitive to the minimum wage rate. On a lesser point, if the economy is going gang-busters, employment is typically low and the minimum wage isn't an issue, since there is competition for workers by employers. What good is a booming economy if you don't have a job? For specific percentages for impact of the 90-91 wage hike on those economic classes most sensitive to changes in the minimum wage, here is a link:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg18n1c.html

"Emplyees (sic) AND employers win. It is a myth that raising the minimum wage hurts emplyers (sic). Find me some data that says otherwise. "

Please see above; The tables you want will be most of the way down the page. Data for several years and several minimum wage hikes is included.

"And I think that you are quite unaware that certified nursing assts in most of the country do not get much higher than 2 dollars an hour over minimum. and that is at best, and only experienced ones. All over the south, they start at the minimum wage, unless forced by a living wage act to start higher. In Large trauma centers, highly experienced ones can hope to make 10 or 11 dollars an hour, but that is at the VERY top of the pay scale, and requires years of service, in the same hospital. And CNAs are laid off very often, sometimes just to avoid moving them to the top of the pay scale."

Been auditing too many hospitals for too many years to let this one slide. Hospitals are sucking wind for qualified personnel, esp. care-givers. Like I said, a home health aid, who doesn't have nearly the training you are discussing, makes more than what you're saying CNAs do. I have audited HHAs all over the country, Katie. Not a one I've gone to is as low as you describe.

"(Yes they do exist, you see sometimes poor people with children cannot EVER afford to go to school to better thier lot)"

Free schooling to age 18... programs ranging from student loans to Pell grants to scholarships to military training... Any kid willing to finish high school with a decent GPA has the opportunity to go on to higher education -- they may have to start somewhere less fun and less glamourous, but it can be done, by anyone who is willing to work at it.

"Perhaps Baltimore is a highly unionized city and offers better pay than the rest of the country, but considering that baltimores cost of living is about medium, I highly doubt your figures are not anomalous. not that I think you are lying but maybe the organisation you work for has much better than average wage policys built in it."

Waht happened in Baltimore was the following: an organization called ACORN, pushed for a law requiring businesses in the waterfront district to pay a "living wage." I seem to recall is being $12 / hr, but don't quote me. (Ironically, ACORN doesn't pay its people minimum wage, arguing they can hire more people if they are exempt.) Anyway,the money to pay the wages doesn't come out of thin air, it comes out of business operations. Prices in the district are higher, fewer people shop there, thusly fewer people are hired and the whole situation is a bust.

"Because not all companies are greedy, they do not need a minimum wage. Minimum wage is for the people who without it, take advantage."

The minimum wage is typically earned by unskilled labor, teenagers and the like. Its essentially a training wage. Very few people stay at the minimum wage for very long.

"now that is not the same thing as saying that minimum wage should be 20 dollars an hour. not in the least. But every once in a while minimum wage HAS to go up. because everything else does. If we make it twenty to appease lil ol liberal me, why dont we make it 25 cents for you? People would still work for that you know. Because people need jobs. If for no other reason than to be eligible for welfare."

Like I asked -- why not. If a small increase is good, why isn't a large one better? Allow me to enlighted you: simply stated, the minimum wage is a price control. If the government coercively raises the price of some good (such as labor) above its market value, the demand for that good will fall, and some of the supply will go unused. Unfortunately, in the case of minimum wages, the "unused goods" are human beings. The worker who is not quite worth the newly imposed price loses out. Typically, the losers include young workers who have too little experience to be worth the new minimum and marginal workers who, for whatever reason, cannot produce very much. First and foremost, minimum-wage legislation hurts the least employable by making them unemployable, in effect pricing them out of the market. Teenagers suffer most from the adjustments required by an increase in the minimum-wage rate. These workers are generally the least experienced, least skilled, and least productive. The damage done to teenagers is twofold. First, they lose income immediately. Second, because minimum-wage legislation has rendered them unemployable, teenagers cannot gain the ex- perience and skills that would make them employable at higher wages later. If there were no floor price on labor, teenagers could offer to work for a lower price until they had gained the training, experience, and skills they needed to command a higher wage. The damage done to minority teenagers is far worse. By establishing an arbitrary minimum, government reduces the costs of discrimination. In The State against Blacks, economist Walter Williams described how minimum-wage legislation alters the incentives of employers: "Suppose that an employer has a preference for white employees over black employees. And for expository simplicity, assume the employees from which he chooses are identical in terms of productivity. If there is a law, such as the minimum wage law, that requires that employers pay the same wage no matter who is hired, what are his incentives? His incentives are [those] of preference indulgence. He must pay the black $3.35 an hour and he must pay the white $3.35 an hour. He must find some basis for choice. The minimum wage law says that his choice will not be based on economic criteria. Therefore, it must be based on noneconomic criteria. If he wishes, the employer can discriminate against the black worker at zero cost."

"if you calculated min wage along with the inflation rate from about 72 on, it would be at least 19 an hour today. But that would likely hurt the economy, but maybe a dollar every few years? Is that unreasonable?

Wages need to keep pace with inflation, or poverty grows. end of story."

Your grasp of economics is tenuous, at best.

"And yes Genious ADULTS, with CHILDREN do work at the very bottom of the pay scale. and they are not always upwardly mobile. Sometimes they stay near the minimum wage for thier entire careers."

Economic research doesn't bear out your arguement. As a rule, the only persons who are at that wage strata are teens and other "new entries" into the market and those without skills. That said, to work a whole lifetime and not gain the skills to move up a rung or three suggests some other limiting factor on their economic mobility. You are wrong on the facts and you are wrong on the theory -- there are negative impacts to increases in the minimum wages, as demonstrated by the economic analysis at the link. As I said, its amazing what you can find if you but expend a wee bit of effort and look.

red roof inn boston
marriott hotel in california
dublin hotel ireland shelbourne
heathrow hotel with parking
accommodation auckland hotel nz
hotel in downtown chicago il
car rental in san diego airport
hilton hotel home page
marriott hotel phoenix arizona
park plaza hotel los angeles
la salle hotel new orleans
vacation rental outer bank n c
family luxury vacation
adam mark hotel clearwater
colorado family in summer vacation
delta hotel london ontario
quality resort san diego hotel
berthold fort indian reservation
royal national hotel in london
murfreesboro tennessee hotel
hyatt hotel in miami
aa planner travel
payless car rental tampa
concordia hotel venice
las vegas nevada vacation rental
family jhonson vacation
orlando luxury car rental
hotel marco royal san venice
adam mark hotel columbus oh
hotel near chicago airport
heathrow airport car park
ritz carlton hotel in boston
decatur holiday il inn select
travel package san diego
disney downtown hotel world
discount club med vacation
hilton hotel location
hotel lord kensington london
suite hotel los angeles
cheap hotel reno nv
exotic car rental chicago
hotel in marie new orleans st
caribe hilton hotel san juan
sheraton hotel atlanta georgia
hotel killarney ireland
holiday inn express san francisco
change past time travel
family johnsons trailer vacation
keystone manufacturer trailer travel
bargain plane ticket
car dallas luxury rental
cozumel hotel iberostar mexico
beach fort hotel myers resort
air paris plane saigon ticket
ireland scotland travel
pet air travel
fullerton hotel in singapore
from package toronto vacation
fairmont hotel san jose california
grand hotel ritz rome
bangkok hotel booking
venice florida car rental
dc hotel lombardi washington
foxs hotel paradise
thailand travel guide
merrion hotel dublin
red roof inn pittsburgh
family vacations
desmond hotel albany new york
milan italy cheap hotel
lyon hotel france
opera hotel copenhagen
dallas hotel job
vacation rental in destin florida
kentucky vacation spot
vancouver bc hotel
hampton inn gastonia nc
travel agency viet nam
dutchman trailer travel used
canada document travel
airport comfort inn toronto
hotel observatoire luxembourg paris
holiday gift online
budget car rental costa rica
indian map reservation wisconsin
car dc rental thrifty washington
wisconsin travel information
big sur ca lodging
las vegas hotel room reservation
exclusive hotel lodging com rate
hotel silver city new mexico
orlando vacation condo rental
doubletree castle hotel orlando
4 book gullivers travel
cheap rental car in los angeles
comfort inn in san antonio
miami beach hotels
beach holiday in inn south
national car rental discount coupon
beach blvd hotel myrtle ocean
seattle rental car
grand floridian hotel disney world
the westin hotel long beach
car rental sydney australia
flag choice hotel
hotel in santorini
canada vacation guide
vancouver bc lodging
hilton hotel seattle washington
hotel london discount cheap
broadway horror little shop ticket
hotel fort william scotland
charlottesville va doubletree hotel
lodge saskatchewan travel
millennium maxwell house hotel
the sutton place hotel chicago
ticket times
mexico new rental ruidoso vacation
american hotel and motel association
hotel malacca malaysia
cabin fever rental vacation
london uk cheap hotel
england train ticket
hotel in bradenton florida
lucca italy hotel reservation
leisure travel van
taj mahal hotel atlantic city
forum hotel italy rome
powell hotel in san francisco
kansas city airport car rental
hotel downtown chicago illinois
lodging national near park zion
butchart garden lodging near
gulf shore alabama hotel and motel
travel medical insurance usa
hotel paris florence
bancroft canada in lodging ontario
best western hotel san antonio
hotel in russia ufa
hotel stuttgart germany
mobil travel guide
naples vacation home
car rentals europe
accommodation borthalan cornwall hotel hotel
free theater ticket
wisconsin romantic vacation
traffic ticket in florida
disneyland hotel los angeles
master sales ticket ticket
wyndham hotel philadelphia

sheraton hotel in london
in ny speeding ticket
front halen row ticket van
mark hopkins hotel san francisco
budget car rental dallas
circle holiday hotel inn select
hotel suite in orlando florida
cheap hotel dubai
car enterprise one rental way
ramada hotel orlando florida
lodge ottawa travel west
hotel dublin ohio
avalanche ticket broker
millennium hotel scottsdale
hawaii honeymoon vacation
sheraton hotel niagara falls canada
indian reservation system
hotel on the riverwalk in san antonio tx
hotel paris opera france
hyatt hotel new york city
hotel pacific tokyo
king edward hotel toronto
39 adam hotel mark s
bellevue washington doubletree hotel
orlando hotel special
new york hotel casino las vegas
budget car rental cyprus
garden city hotel garden city new york
phoenix hotel london
national truck rental
luxury hotel in naples italy
lodging in winter park
expandable travel trailer
canada train travel
extended stay hotel philadelphia
hotel intercontinental amman
grand hotel pigeon forge tennessee
aston hotel bali
sand dune hotel myrtle beach
low fair airline ticket
traffic ticket oklahoma city
hotel de l abbaye paris
clarion hotel and suite cincinnati
air fair low ticket
country inn and suite destin florida
phish tickets
the westin hotel denver
a hotel in atlanta ga
fl hotel key southernmost west
holiday inn key largo resort
inclusive mexican package vacation
atlanta georgia travel guide
cass hotel chicago
inexpensive airline tickets
car miami rent rental rite
airport close hotel toronto
family johnson premier vacation
disney property hotel
hilton airport hotel rome
cheap hotel motel rate
brussels hotel nh
chase hotel palm springs
walt disney world vacation package
hotel in the disneyland area
fifth wheel travel trailer manufacturer
edmonton travel agency
car company exotic hawaii rental
trump hotel in atlantic city
hampton beach new hampshire lodging
atlanta brave ticket broker
inclusive island paradise vacation
extended stay hotel dallas
intercontinental hotel mexico city
vacation rental orlando fl
fox car rental phoenix
abroad bargain holiday package
ny hilton hotel
disney florida home near vacation
adult asia travel
center city columbus holiday inn ohio
travel site deal
kaanapali maui vacation rental
corp country cross travel
california central coast lodging
cyprus holiday apartment
holiday inn salt lake city airport
caribbean dive vacation
online travel agent and canada
vacation condo orlando florida
movie template ticket
angeles city los parking ticket
beach great family vacation
address disney resort walt world
airport philadelphia embassy hotel suite
map state travel
four season hotel mexico
france george hotel paris v
travel planner international
edison hotel in new york city
walt disney world ticket
air force lodging us
aruba hotel tamarijn
ebay sports ticket
le grand hotel intercontinental paris
airport hilton louis st hotel
shorewalk vacation villa
louis prince st ticket
radisson hotel in san antonio
cheap train travel
marriott hotel cancun mexico
around the world air travel
car oakland payless rental
dublin hotel special offer
easter family holiday
downtown hotel louis radisson st
myrtle beach 5 star hotel
walt disney world florida hotel
hotel strasbourg france
holidays greece
travel agency calgary
dream theater ticket
hotel rate in new york city
alexander florida hotel miami
europe planning vacation
laguna beach vacation rental
nude vacation wife
speeding ticket
breakers hotel florida
marquis marriott hotel in new york city
comfort inn in san antonio
best western hotel in san francisco
montreal hotel reservation
door county wisconsin lodging
holiday inn select montreal
four point hotel by sheraton
fishing texas vacation
ferry in italy travel
ca california hotel monica santa
china hainan island travel
marriott hotel bangkok
the argent hotel san francisco
discount disney park ticket walt world
vacation home rental orlando fl
concert ticket ticketmaster
omni detroit hotel
diego friendly hotel in pet san
australia travel book
nashville tennessee hotel
adam mark hotel in san antonio texas
india tour travel

Another zinger from Mark Steyn: Media deserve blame for New Orleans debacle

Maybe someone should email

andrzej_wozniak@gem-studio.com

and tell him we dont appreciate his spam.

Or how about someone contacting godaddy and shutting down all the fake domains..

Katrina is back with a vengeance. At last, some objective editorials.

Politicians, media combine to create disastrous coverage

and

Too many reporters went way overboard in hurricane coverage

What's the saying, 'you can fool all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.

The lies and propaganda of liberals and the anti-Bush media are coming back to haunt them. There needs to be a full investigation into the naked political agenda of the mainstream media, in coordination with liberal politicians, in relation to events surrounding Katrina.

The media's irresponsibility and abdication of objective and factual reporting during the Katrina crisis seems to be good grounds for the administration to restrict media activities during other times of national crisis.