And Dawson Baillie Condones the violence, how the orange order manage to find these muppets to represent them is beyond belief.

Where are all of the usual apologists for The Order at the moment? Normally we have any number of people coming on here banging on about The Order's unswerving committment to "civil and religous liberties" and the "rule of law".

I just hope no one has the audacity to post such utter claptrap ever again after the Mayhem of the past weekend. As for Robert Saulters, I'd make my appointment with Specsavers sooner rather than later.

PS When is a 'ceremonial' sword not a ceremonial sword? Answers on a postcard to Ruth Patterson, C/O DUP Hypocrisy Department.

PS I wonder if Jeffrey's campaign to promote abhorrance of international terrorism will involve visits to any of his own constituents?

Wee Jeffrey only tries to rally allies for his bet for world domination.
Or maybe he attended a workshop.

Just as well the OO took plenty of time to consider their response ! ;)

Its almost funny - What's next from Ulster's newest commedy duo - is Robert going to tell us that 9/11 was the American's fault because you can't go around building skyscrapers and not expect innocent terrorists to fly into them.

Or maybe Dawson will explain that the Northern bank robbery was the Bank's fault - after all having all that money lying around was just provocation.

Or Poland invaded Germany in September 1939....

I have to say that the latest OO comments defy belief - the only explanation is that these people are so detached from the 21stC that in their wee world TV has not been invented yet..... otherwise WTF was that 16 stone white shirted OO marshall, with batton, collarette and earpiece barralleing into a cop doing ??? A bit of friendly joshing? IIRC that was about the least threatening behaviour

The whole bunch (particulalry including the DUP) are sanctimonious, two faced, duplicitous, and probably bigoted, scum bags. When they do crawl out from under the stones they live all you get is weasel words and silly childish excuses. No bloody wonder their community is boiling over. It is the hypocrisy of the old grand duke of york scenario. You can't come out predicting blood and thunder from your people then blame everybody else.

In Robert’s own words: "cry of desperation".

We should be celebrating this latest faux pas from the OO. After this, surely it can only be a matter of time before it's declared a proscribed organisation?

Unbelievable that it has taken five days for this "non event" to materialise.

Were they working night and day to come up with this utter nonsense? Dozens of lives have been ruined by this violence and dozens more will be, as the result of criminal charges and jail sentences.

Lets see how many identifiable Orangemen are charged in the weeks to come.

Easily the most lamentable press conference I've ever witnessed. I'd hate to see what would have happened if they HADN'T prepared for it.
The sad thing is that if Gerry & Martin had been handling it, it would have slick professionalism itself, and everyone would have been slamming the cruel PSNI for blocking the road in the first place.
Who can forget Gerry's statement after the Teebane massacre: 'this is yet another horrific reminder of the failure of British policy in Ireland.'

Unionism, you're in a hole. Stop digging.

Saulter's comments evoke horrible memories of Harold Gracey's when the three young Quinn got burned alive in their house.All decency the order had has long since gone

None of the OO's behaviour is on the scale of what SF/IRA have done to BOTH communities here yet Catholics still square it with their conscience to vote SF/IRA in their masses. The Prods are now just simply reading from the Republican's handbook.

Can we have an apology from the IRA also?

I think you will find that many Unionists have condemned the violence. The fact of the matter is the Gov got it wrong - they banned the parade because they thought they would get more trouble out the Republicans. But as per usual they have ignored the feeling of Prods for years and have now seen the fruits of this explode in their face.

PS the guy waving the sword should be banned.

Antrim Springfarm the guy waving the sword has spoilt it for the OO. The end game is in sight. The OO must make up its mind on what it wants to be: if Christian then 'Love thy neighbour like thyself' etc etc. If they follow this route then they must ban 'bands' (sic) that have paramilitery connections, ban crittens such as the person you identified and act out what they preach. If they do not follow this route then they should be seen as what they are and people should seek out public nuisance claims against them: i.e. police take note!

Oh there was certainly a lot in the press conference to make one cringe, but don't we have our priorities a bit out of kilter here, as gerry lvs castro implies?

The Orange Order are badgered for days to condemn the violence -some of which was clearly perpetrated by some members.
But the organisations which did the shootings, blast bombing etc- the UDA, and the UVF- haven't had Julian O'Neill bouncing up and down on the doorsteps of their leaders, demanding that they condemn the acts of criminality they perpetrated.

And the Orange leadership had the neck/innocence/gullibility to step up to the plate and let the hacks do their worst. Remember the number of times Gerry and co weren't available after the McCartney killing or some other atrocity. Uniquely they were shamed into responding to the McCartney killing, but bet your bottom dollar noone will know anything about the attempted murder of Geoff Commander, and no BBC journo will want to risk a blacklisting from Richard Macauley by going to Alex Maskey's house and demanding he comment on the incident.

Who's gone round to Jackie McDonald's local and told him he needs to apologise for UDA actions this week- or interrupted him on the golf course with Mary McAleese? And Davy Dictionary gets off with a few tutting questions from Barney Rowan in a one-to one in the BBC rooftop garden, which he swats aside with the nonchalent ease of the experienced apologist for the UVF he is. Why? because of the incestuous nature of the media's contacts with paramilitaries in NI. Only go so far in your attacks on these bodies. Like when the Quinn children were murdered by the UVF- a fact that has been completely airbrushed from history as a reward for their role in the "peace process". Davy wouldn't come on t.v. if he was introduced as someone "with insight into the workings" of childkillers though , would he?

The sad fact is that there's no heat on the UDA, and precious little on the UVF from government or society. And some people could more easily accept the weekend's violence if it had been followed with a slick Gerry and Martin type press conference. Well we shouldn't accept it.The obvious discomfiture of Orange leaders at the excesses of some people supposedly supporting them is actually an indicator of a more developed morality than the usual media bilge from Shinners, PUPs, and other loyalists.

Oh, and yes, it's perfectly possible to cast a very cynical eye on the conduct of the police without justifying what happened. The video clip that Eamon McCann put up on Slugger a few months ago showing an assault on protestants in Londonderry ought to have been a major news story, but again too many vested interests conspire to cover up such incidents.

Noone need think that the police don't exploit these events for their own agenda- in this case to oust the current Orange leadership and have it replaced with one which will talk to local residents and the Parades Commission. Still, no one can kid themselves that it's "our" police force.
Everyone else plays the blame game better than the Orange. Condemn them for their lack of media savvy; condemn them for their poor strategical thinking; but condemn the people who were violent for the violence.

Any unionist contributors care to take up the American Envoy to NI, the NI Secretary of State, the head of the NI Police, about unionism and the Orange Order having to take some kind of responsibility over this mayhem?

Anyone at all? Care to defend the unionist community and the Orange Order, or have words now been replaced with rocks, bombs and bullets on a semi-permanent basis?

Is the talking over for good now? Have unionists been so ignored and so sidetracked and so humiliated and so defeated that words simply aren't good enough. It must be action?

Has the flame of Protestant resistance been lit?

Is it now a return to the ancient unionist mantra of "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right"? Is it time to start arming the unionist people?

Who will be targetted in the next wave? Who is on the shooting and bombing list?

Are northern Catholics to be targetted more systematically then they are at present or are the NI police and British army the immediate enemy for getting in the way over the weekend.

Where will the unionist political resources go over the next few months?

As the British army and police are now legitimate targets, should attacks be carried out on the people of the Irish Republic to put manners on them too for their appeasing ways?

A boycott of Dunnes perhaps? Threatening local shops that sell Irish products or newspapers maybe?

Any unionist care to tell me where they feel the line should be drawn.

Just like to know where we all stand with unionists and how far they intend going down this familiar road.

Or am I being aggressive and arrogant for asking?

[No trolling - ed Mod]

Note to Ed. (feel free to delete).
I don't understand or agree with your use of "trolling" here.
What I wrote was ironic and pointed. By using hackneyed phrases ("right-thinking") commonly used by certain political sectors, I was drawing attention to the plain absurdity of the position of the OO.
Forgive me for saying so, but I have seen worse allowed on this blog when the target is nationalist or republican.
Anyway, you're the umpire.

"Everyone else plays the blame game better than the Orange. Condemn them for their lack of media savvy; condemn them for their poor strategical thinking; but condemn the people who were violent for the violence."

No, Darth, I think I'll continue to condemn the OO for hiding behind a travesty of Christian symbols, while conducting themselves in ways that are repugnant to all true Christians. I refuse to be tolerant of the intolerant. Christ wasn't, and that's good enough for me.

And I condemn the OO for their violence as well.

Just heard a rumour from a usually reliable source that roads will be blocked in Belfast between 4 & 5pm this evening. Sorry didn't get this out earlier.
Happy commuting.

Antrim Springfarm, you should remember that the OO violence is happening at a time when the IRA has declared an end to its war, and has already started - according to the press - destroying its weapons. They have not killed a single Protestant in nearly 10 years. Yet the response to this conciliation is just violence from Loyalism. I struggle to comprehend why this is so.

You blame the violence on the decision to re-route the parade. Is it really such a big deal, considering that is one of just 17 parades out of 3500 OO parades that are re-routed or banned each year i.e. 0.25%. This doesn't include the many Apprentice Boys and Black Preceptory parades, bringing the % down further. It is clear that the Orange Order is just a sectarian organisation that likes provoking Catholics by endlessly rubbing in the defeat over 300 years ago in a way that cements the division between the two traditions, in a way that just stirs up trouble. The OO should keep to its own areas.

Sorry for the accidental triple-post. I clicked refresh a few times because I thought the message hadn't posted.

darthrumsfeld - fantastic and lucid points made. It would appear that there is more disliking of the OO than the organisations which is baffling.

"None of the OO's behaviour is on the scale of what SF/IRA have done to BOTH communities here yet Catholics still square it with their conscience to vote SF/IRA in their masses. The Prods are now just simply reading from the Republican's handbook."

Antrim Springfarm, this isn't about SF or the IRA. this is about the OO and their ordering supporters onto the streets when it was obvious to all what would happen, and then washing their hands of all responsibility. Spare us the whataboutery, please. ; there's more than enough threads dedicated to SF/IRA on here. The OO have scored an own goal; they have to stand up and take responsibility.

Brian, the Springfield road WAS their area until violent republican's put them out of their homes.

ALL of the contentious parades pass areas which used to be Protestant.

I think getting put out of your home is more offensive than an OO parade.

But I think for the future the OO should review all it's 'contentious' routes - including Garvagy Rd S'field Rd etc. BTW the 'Ardoyne shops' is not a contentious route.

"The OO should keep to its own areas."

Ah yes the bantustan argument. perhaps you could help us by defining those areas.Maybe we should put up signs -"Jaffas only", to avoid confusion.
I presume they'll be Protestant- like Ahoghill I suppose. ER... in the interests of fairness no doubt the GAA will offer to move out of Carryduff and other places. No?

Anyone else been wondering where Peter & Iris & wee Jeffrey have been over the past few days? Could it be a slippery move to let the Big Man & Junior & N Dodds take all the flak for trying to defend the indefensible whilst they escape the media pressure?

Comparisons with the GAA are bogus darthrumsfeld. The GAA activity takes place within a stadium/grounds. They are not marching past Protestant homes singing rebel songs and banging drums. Most importantly, they don't ban Protestants from joining. As such, they are not a sectarian organisation. They are a sporting organisation, and there is even a PSNI team now. Considering that the PSNI is 85% Protestant I fail to see the sectarian-content in GAA behaviour. Having a political opinion of itself is not sectarian. Ramming past defeats down the throats of people of a specific religion on the other hand is sectarian.

Why are members of the Orange Order barred from marrying Catholics? Sounds terribly bigoted to me and not unlike the kind of laws they had in the Deep South of the US in the 60's where inrer-racial marriage was illegal.

'Brian, the Springfield road WAS their area until violent republican's put them out of their homes.

ALL of the contentious parades pass areas which used to be Protestant.

I think getting put out of your home is more offensive than an OO parade.

But I think for the future the OO should review all it's 'contentious' routes - including Garvagy Rd S'field Rd etc. BTW the 'Ardoyne shops' is not a contentious route'

People have been put out of their homes all over NI,and many areas have changed in respect to the predominant religion there and it's just a fact of life now which we must adopt to.Surely making sure you celebrate your history/culture/religion is more important than taking a traditional route?Celebrating a extra 100 yards in a different direction is hardly gonna kill ya's or take away from what it is you are celebrating

'I think getting put out of your home is more offensive than an OO parade.'

Emmmm aye,but that has what to do with anything?i'm sure the people living there now weren't the ones doing the ousting years ago(which happened to both sides everywere)

I'd agree about Ardoyne,i'm from that immediate area and have been at the protest last 2 years out of nosiness more than anything,and really it seems to me like the people of Ardoyne are more concerned about havin a good old riot than the actually parade that goes past(and of course it's Propoganda for Sinn Fein)

Antrim Springfield wrote:
“ALL of the contentious parades pass areas which used to be Protestant.”

And therein lays the problem with both Unionism and the OO. Demographics of residential area’s change – it’s a fact of life the world over not just in Northern Ireland. Contentious parades do pass through area’s that used to be protestant, but the fact of the matter is that they are not Protestant anymore and thus should be avoided by such parades.

Was the Orange Order responsible for the new traffic lights in
Mountrath, I wonder? Well, someone screwed it up. And if
they're switched off (the lights,that is), everthing runs like
clockwork.

But seriously, Brian Boru, only seventeen marches banned
(out of a total of 3500----- that's thirty-five hundred)? You've
got to be kidding, surely.

Pete, Foggy Yes hence I say that the OO should review the routes to eliminate future Drumcree-stylee episodes.

Yes both sides have experienced intimidation; but there has been a greater Nationalist paradigm of securing (nearly) all the main arterial routes in and out of the city.

You can harm a man and he will eventually forgive you...but taking 'his land' he will never forget.

Just my humble thoughts and observations.

But Brian- what about all the GAA followers parking on the streets, urinating in gardens, causing traffic congestion- ere all the things residents round Croke Park complain about? And yes it is sectarian because a Unionist cannot join an organisation thast is anti-Unionist. But of course we're back to the old argument that it's not sectarian if the discrimination is less direct and overt. So your community's discrimination is superior to mine.Well it ain't. Just why is the GAA the only sporting organisation in the world that codifies polics into its rules anyway? Flying a republican flag and playing a republican anthem over loudspeakers before a match is just as unpleasant for a Unionist to ensure as a loyalist band belting out "The Sash" outside a chapel. neither should happen. Calling a GAA club after an IRA man who helped kill Protestants is offensive too, or is that none of our business?

Richard Dowling, I am not joking. It is correct. Darthrumsfeld, by IRA figures do you mean Provisional IRA or the dissident groups, or are you referring to the 1919-21 IRA i.e. the original one that freed the South? If the former, then I am unaware of a single GAA grounds named after them. If the latter, then I would say that the Old IRA tended not to target civilians. Catholic and Protestant soldiers involved in trying to put down the rebellion of 1916-21 were fighting in a war, and there deaths, while tragic, were war casualties. You might as well say that there shouldn't be a "Washington monument" in the US.

Can sonmeone tell me what "trolling" is

"Why are members of the Orange Order barred from marrying Catholics? Sounds terribly bigoted to me and not unlike the kind of laws they had in the Deep South of the US in the 60's where inrer-racial marriage was illegal."

id guess that it is just a matter of religous reasons. as Christians they should marry other Christians, people with the same faith and beliefs. protestant beliefs differ in a few ways from catholic beliefs. so they wouldnt be compatible. other non Christian faiths wouldnt be compatible either. this isnt biggoted or anything, its just following what your faith says you should do. thats my interpretation anyway...

When is Peter Hain going to specify the Orange Order and other loyal(?) institutions? Shouldn't the Orange Order be declared an illegal organisation in order to allow decent Orange men and women to take control of this supposedly Christian organisation - now acting in such an unchristian way. What was it the Saviour said: love thy neighbour as thineself.
This may seem a harsh verdict for some commenters but what other option is there - the Orange Order and its outdated politics and its head in the sand way of doing things and its hypocritical attitude to unionist paramilitarism as opposed to republican paramailitarism has no positive contribution to make to Irish society now - and unless it changes tack completely, it never will.

Trolling is when a contributer to this blog makes a savvy comment that is so critical of unionism to the point where it may elicit outraged responses. Apparently it is not bidirectional.

Ooh you're quick Oolsterman. What about this? WOuld the OO be satisfied to accept their members acted in a violent way if the International Monitoring Commission judged them to have so done?
And what about this as a sanction? The Irish government should exclude the Orange Order from any role in the new Battle of the Boyne Interpretive Centre. It should consider suspending any funding for that centre and any other Orange Order projects it supports.

And the Orange Order should be ordered to pay for the police operation at the weekend and compensate the officers injured as a result of its members 'self defence'. Perhaps it could sell some of its property - but it better be quick because if it carries on in its current way, it will be declared illegal, just like it was in the 19th century.

Darth,
although there is no comparison between the Orange Order and the GAA, last weekend probably summed up perfectly the difference between the two.

Let's have a look at what both organisations were up to:

GAA showpiecing Irish culture:

Over 80,000 at a state-of-art stadium to watch the all-Ireland hurling final. Millions of euros made for the city of Dublin with no rooms to be had for love or money.

Chinese ambassador, head of 2008 Beijing Olympics among those on hand to witness event as government uses GAA to showcase Ireland in its continued drive to increase business in the world's fastest growing market. Exports up 32% on last year but this is only the beginning and who better than the GAA to show our Chinese friends what Irish culture is about?

2004 GAA income: 34 million up from 10 million in 1995
Number of GAA clubs: 2,000
Estimated value of assets: 6 billion plus and growing
Number attending matches in 2004: 2.9 million
Number of GAA stone throwers arrested: zero
Number of petrol bombs thrown at GAA events: zero
Number of police injured at GAA events: zero
Number of Protestant homes attacked by GAA mobs: zero
Number of live rounds fired at GAA events: zero

Now to our friends in the Orange Order:

What were they doing for their brethren over the weekend? After all Whiterock is the most deprived area of Northern Ireland and the last thing it needs is more bad news. Oh dear, oh dear.

Members seen on film attacking police officers with rocks and assorted weapons while hangers on attempt murder, firing numberous times on the security forces.
Hundreds of petrol bombs thrown, scores of police injured, serious amounts of criminal damage to property.

2004 OO income: unknown
Number of members: 40,000 down from 100,000 and falling
Estimated value of assets: unknown
Number of stone throwers arrested at OO events: scores
Number of petrol bombs thrown at OO events: hundreds if not thousands
Number of police injured at OO events: hundreds
Number of live rounds fired at OO events: 50 plus

That is the reality of last weekend. You can take it or leave it.

Eranu, from the kinds of disgraceful scenes I have witnessed on my TV screen going back years but worst of all in 1995, 6 and 8, and now this, I personally feel, despite what you said, that this organisation has the marriage bar simply because: they just cannot stand having anything to do with Catholics. That's the reason and people should just admit this. Did you know that on the re-routed Whiterock parade, paramilitary banners were present? Would you not feel offended if thousands were marching past your area with IRA banners?

Oilbhear

I'm in entire agreement over the Boyne memorial. The last thing the south needs is Orange triumphalism being exported there.

And here's another sanction I'd recommend. No more ceremonial swords to be carried in parades. Ban all militaristic displays; they have no place in a decent society.

Who recalls the Shaftsbury Square riot of a couple of years ago when drunken OO supporters attacked drunken OO yobs, and the latter counterattacked with swords?

George

Difficult for any sentient being to argue with those statistics. But rest assured that an Orange apologist will attempt to.

Dawson Baillie... I condone violence, I condone violence, I condone violence:
Reporter...You mean condemn Violence
Dawson....I condone Violence, thats the word I used CONDONE! OOPS I don't condone violence:
Priceless

Oh, go ahead and mock, Victor1!

How would YOU like it if you were found to be an ignoramus?

Big Dawson and the ceremonial sword....he had it in his hand, he had it in his hand the way you carry it....
Oh dear....maybe he was commiting HARI KARI

Dennyboy,

my favourite new statistic is that there are nearly 25% more people in Northern Ireland waiting for a surgical procedure than there are members of the Orange Order.

But money that could have been spent on these 47,000 people was needed to stop the latest Orange Order political rave from turning into a pogrom.

Just as a comparison, the Irish Republic's rightly-maligned health service has just over 10,000 waiting, even though the population is over 4.1 million, well over double.

And the Irish Republic is spending 1,000 euros per capita more than the authorities in NI. That's the equivalent of 1.7 billion extra for the Northern Irish Health Service every year for the forseeable future.

But does unionism have time to address this problem and the long-term implications of the underfunding of their health system?

Did they give out about the figures published by the Department of Health earlier this month that revealed the number of patients waiting for an initial outpatient consultation had risen by 9,385 to 176,523?

Hell no, that would be too sensible.

Have we heard a whimper from them about seatbelts for school buses since the tragedy in Meath earlier this year when five girls died? There was a lot of talk from the DUP at the time but silence ever since. Not a chance.

Same old same old. Northern Irish schoolchildren will travel without seatbelts until a bunch of them die or until Westminster decides to give them the cash.

In comparison, all school buses in the Republic will be fitted with seatbelts and will have a 'one child per seat' policy by the end of 2006.

The practice of allowing three children to share two seats will come to an end for all secondary school students next term.

The leader of unionism still refuses to shake the hand of Bertie Ahern, the leader of Northern Ireland's largest external trading partner - the Irish Republic. That's sensible business.

I bring these things up not to say the Republic is better but to show in the clearest possible way how unionists are not only failing their own people but how they are failing every man, woman and child in Northern Ireland.

Yet you still have supposedly intelligent unionists sitting contentedly as direct rule pulls the economic rug from under them or as the Orange Order abdicates all social responsibilty and hands the reigns of community power to thugs.

Show me a unionist who favours direct rule and I'll show you a fool.

George, your last two posts are pretty good. nicely done

Brian Boru
"Most importantly, they don't ban Protestants from joining"

Quite right- they just run it in such a way that no protestant would join

Thanks for the new heads up, George. Sobering stuff indeed :(

The same nasty little bigots (or their spawn) who drove my wife's people from NI, thereby hastening the brain drain a little more, are directly responsible for that horrendous waste of resources. They know it, yet their warped logic puts "principles" before life itself, even their own or their children's.

On a related topic, I remember doing a bit of googling once to try to find out what contribution unionist politicians were making, or had made, to society. I could find nothing on people like Jeffrey Donaldson, other than their ceaseless sectarian battles to keep the taigs out of power. The "common good" evidently meant nothing to them.

This is what one gets when one drives out the brains and thereby thins the gene pool: the Bailie Dawsons.

Darth
"Flying a republican flag and playing a republican anthem over loudspeakers before a match is just as unpleasant for a Unionist to ensure as a loyalist band belting out "The Sash" outside a chapel. "

Laughable. You'll need to better than that I'm afraid.

If the stadium had wheels and was driven to the door of a church full of protestant worshipers......perhaps then your point would make sense. I've never seen a GAA stadium burnin' rubber up the road though.

Why has Sean Kelly not been arrested for all the caos he caused last weekend--upsetting those poor Orange men/loyalists like that

I meant "Dawson Baillie" of course, not "Bailie Dawson" :0)

Shows you what an insignificant place the idiot occupies in my universe.

"Why has Sean Kelly not been arrested for all the caos he caused last weekend--upsetting those poor Orange men/loyalists like that"

Nice one, Martin! :0)

But for chrissake stop putting ideas into Dawson Baillie's head. Given previous form, he just might go to the PSNI to demand Kelly's arrest on precisely those grounds.

George I think you forgot about the Tyrone GAA fans viciously attacking elderly OO members.

DO YOU SEE THIS THE SAME AS WHAT HAPPENED ON SATURDAY??? IS THERE CALLS FOR THE GAA TO BE SPECIFIED??

The GAA was set-up to be a purely partionist sport.
Cumann na Fuiseoige has placed specifically republican symbols on it's club badge. The Club has chosen a crest carrying Icons associated with the IRA Hunger Striker Bobby Sands and the Hunger Strikes. OUTRAGEOUS!

Football however is embraced by both communities HOWEVER a lot of Catholics still can't support their HOME COUNTRY WHO HAS AN EVEN NUMBER OF RC'S AND PROTESTANTS PLAYING.

HOWEVER a lot of Catholics still can't support their HOME COUNTRY WHO HAS AN EVEN NUMBER OF RC'S AND PROTESTANTS PLAYING.

Who play thier football at windsor park in a Loyalist heartland, and where Catholics supporting Cliftonville where attacked with grenades thrown over the wall into thier stands by Loyalist paramilitarys,,,home country don't make me laugh!!

VICTOR,
You haven't been to a game I bet at all. Funny how Martin O'Neil was able to play with pride and Gerry Armstrong (from the falls) and Pat Jennings etc

Pity you can't be supportive.

Getting off topic now!

AS,

Your bile-fuelled, narrow-minded & inflammatory blogs typify the southern image of so-called "loyal" Crown subjects. Indeed, your ironic & stereotypical take on "Nationalist culture" (copyright OO/UVF) is behind parody & contempt.

No matter how rational or succient your opponents arguments are, you automatically respond by throwing the rattle out of the pram.

Instead of maturely debating the issues raised in a rational & coherent manner, your bitter & vindicative replies always appeal solely to the lowest common denominator of "loyal" OO brethern.

You are "outraged" by GAA clubs named after IRA hunger strikers, yet you simultaneously defend the most sectarian & bigoted right-wing facists
in Western Europe....

"Defender of the Faith" indeed!

Mick

Thie blog may seem more "man" than "ball", but I'm sick of reading the ramblings of this idiot on your site.

AS,

Your bile-fuelled, narrow-minded & inflammatory blogs typify the southern image of so-called "loyal" Crown subjects. Indeed, your ironic & stereotypical take on "Nationalist culture" (copyright OO/UVF) is behind parody & contempt.

No matter how rational or succient your opponents arguments are, you automatically respond by throwing the rattle out of the pram.

Instead of maturely debating the issues raised in a rational & coherent manner, your bitter & vindicative replies always appeal solely to the lowest common denominator of "loyal" OO brethern.

You are "outraged" by GAA clubs named after IRA hunger strikers, yet you simultaneously defend the most sectarian & bigoted right-wing facists
in Western Europe....

"Defender of the Faith" indeed!

Mick

Thie blog may seem more "man" than "ball", but I'm sick of reading the ramblings of this idiot on your site.

AS....How about Niell Lennon we are after all talking in the present text!

Antrimspringfarm,
you have to compare like with like and look at the organisation.

Was the GAA trying to organise a match in a field behind an Orange Lodge or something? No. Did it call for its members to gather knowing Orangemen could be injured? No.

You are talking about thugs who happen to be wearing Tyrone jerseys on their way home at night beating somebody up.

I don't think you can use such an incident to besmirch the 2.9 million who watched GAA last year. And you certainly can't use it to besmirch the GAA itself.

Actually wait a minute.

A handful of thugs out of nearly 3 million GAA fans last year would be enough to denounce the GAA in unionist eyes.

And unionists wonder why Irish people don't bother listening to them any more.

I only wish unionists and the Orange Order could experience the community leadership and feeling of wellbeing GAA people like Cork's Sean Og O'Hailpin give to their community. Like when 11-year-old Robert Holohan was brutally murdered.

As for Cumann na Fuiseoige, it was set up by former IRA prisoners so I'm not surprised they have such a crest.

Though personally not mad about it, they can call their club, the one they set up with their hard work, "the team of larks" if they want.

How many police officers have been injured at their games in the 7 years since Cumann na Fuiseoige's foundation? zero
How many petrol bombs have been thrown: zero
How many etc.....

By the way, as you have stood up to be counted when many others of the unionist persuasion have headed to the hills, here's somebody to get your blood boiling.

Her Majesty's government gave Cumann na Fuiseoige 22,500 pounds last year so the British government doesn't have a problem with ex-prisoners playing Gaelic football either.

Yes Neil Lennon got abuse - a threat even. But that was wrong of course. It doesn't stop many Catholics playing and supporting the NI team today. Why does it stop you? Because the stadium is in a 'Protestant' area?

Grimsey, I responded to your questions and you resort to name-calling. THAT IS JUST VERY SAD. It's nice to be called an idiot. It makes me really want to share an Island with your sentiments.

What do you have to say about VICTOR's comments that he/she supports the shooting of Protestants?

Springfarm:

Dear oh dear, but the constant use of caps to ram the point home, not to mention the pig-ignorance your displaying towards civilised debate, is giving me a sore head in an otherwise informative thread.

You do nothing for the Unionist cause with this approach, which begs the question: would you be Big Ian by any chance?

Yes Neil Lennon got abuse - a threat even. But that was wrong of course

And the Loyalist grenade attack on Cliftonville fans was that also wrong? I support my home country team by the way IRELAND that is were I was born and were my allegiance lies.

George that doesn't really bother me.
I also seen just a handful of OO thugs attacking police. I must stress that as I see it Saturday was a very black day for the OO. They can never hope to convince people how bad the off-camera harrassment was etc

Dawson Bailie should be stood down IMO. He shouldn't have to think about condemning the violence.

I respect you though George for your comments. You have not resorted to infantile name-calling.

While we may disagree on some points at least we are talking about it; now thats a start.

Now, was that a hate-filled with bile post Grimsey?

AS,

You actually responded to my question - I only asked one - on a different blog...leaving that aside, please also note the correct spelling of my user-name.

I've also had a brief look at VICTOR1's previous comments - please expand on your assertion that "he/she supports the shooting of Protestants?"...which comment of his are you referring to? (granted, I may have missed the actual comment he/she posted)

Grimesy,
I will let Victor elaborate on his/her post.

Foggy are you going to join the list of name-callers? you are staring a trend here. Please tell me how I am 'pig-ignorant'?

You really are not doing much for your cause with ALL THE CHILDISH NAME CALLING.

I absolutely refute your scandalous allegation the quote below is I assume what your referring too, nowhere in it do I mention Religion of any description, the community in question could be Protestant, Catholic or dissenter immaterial to me, they have the right to defend their homes, family, livelihood

Your right a community under siege defends itself from the murderous onslaught and uses arms when necessary to repel those attackers

AS

'Instead of maturely debating the issues raised in a rational & coherent manner, your bitter & vindicative replies always appeal solely to the lowest common denominator of "loyal" OO brethern.'

Re: your (incorrect) assertion that Victor encourages the shooting of protestants...you've just proved my point!

Dawson Baillie has provided the country with one of those immortal tv moments which no doubt, will be screened many times, in years to come.

It could rival the wee man from strabane talking really fast to a news reporter at the end of the sixties.

Roll on the Beadle christmas special.

Thanks Dawson.

VICTOR1, oh dear is all I have to say.

Here is your post and incase you have forgotten you DO tell us which community you are talking about as you refer to an 'attack by a loyalist community worker'. Maybe you had forgotten you said that...DOH!

The security gate since it went up has only served to hide the Loyalist cowards from launching attacks, this was clearly seen on video when a catholic family came under pipe bomb attack and had the opportunity to capture the scene from thier loft!

A community under siege does not shoot 5 innocent Protestants

Your right a community under siege defends itself from the murderous onslaught and uses arms when nescessary to repel those attackers, one of whom was a leading Loyalist paramilitary and has been for many many years, I could name him by the way, but he claims to be a community worker now!
Back on the empty homes theme again AS, getting a little repetitive now eh, well I'll address that issue one more time shall I, Loyalist paramilitary protection racketeering keeps builders from renovating these homes, therefore they become uninhabital therefore they lie empty! Also housing shortage is at a premium in catholic areas given that they can only live in catholic districts, unlike Protestants who can happily live in Catholic areas without fear of persecution.

Posted by: VICTOR1 at September 14, 2005 07:55 PM

What do you think Grimesy? George? Foggy?

George

"although there is no comparison between the Orange Order and the GAA, last weekend probably summed up perfectly the difference between the two."

this and the rest of your post earlier this evening completely misses the point.

There are no contentious GAA matches that I am aware off. There is no independent GAA Commission to determine whether the GAA should play in a certain areas or not. There are no residents groups set up in opposition to GAA matches being played.

However like the OO it does have restrictions on who can play(Police,army/catholics) and it does have sub groups(clubs/bands) who flirt with the names associated with terrorists. They are both ultra nationalist and exclusive (foreign sports/catholics)and tbey both see the need to drum into young minds an historical 'culture' they are scared shitless of being swamped. They are almost exclusively supported by either Protestants or Catholics - infact they actually have a lot in common.

My advice to the OO would be to follow the Christian lead of "shaking the dust of their feet" and not walking in areas that are primariliy residential and where those residents don't want them to.

It is sad I know - I wish everyone was as liberal as me - if the AOH wanted to walk by my East Belfast home they would be most welcome - I would encourage my children to go out and see the carnival.

But alas for our generation that is not to be.

AS,

He refers to shooting loyalist attacking the SS, not innocent protestants...a very big difference!

Anybody engaging in any kind of religious pogrom deems themselves above the law & should suffer the consequences, however equally unlawful they may be.

If you fall into the latter category AS, then you've nothing to worry about...you seem to twist Victor's words to suit your means. Shooting 'prostestants' differs from shooting 'loyalist ethnic cleansers'.

Is my position now clear, AS?

And before you try & tell me that I'm out of touch 'down South'....I live in Belfast.

John, I have to agree with you. As I have said before I think the OO should review ALL the 'contentious' routes and try to avoid confrontation. They should look at new routes.

Unfortunately they did fall into the trap in recent years which was hatched by a group of SF/IRA men whilst in prison who formulated the 'concerned residents approach' to oppose marches. At many of these parades there was no history of problems until there was a sudden aggrevance realised. It was great PR for SF; but it's a pity it helped to trash our wee country every summer for a number of years.

Another point I have made is the fact that all of the 'contentious' routes used to be Protestant - so it's not like the OO deliberately seek to annoy Catholics by choosing these traditional routes.

That said you are never going to beat the SF/IRA PR machine on this issue and you do help to allienate Protestants from Catholics by opting to march along routes where you are not wanted. We have to acknowledge that Catholics do no longer come to watch the marches in the big numbers they used to.

We cannot have a repeat of this weekend. No road is worth a life...

Even one built especially for the parade ?

On a related topic, I remember doing a bit of googling once to try to find out what contribution unionist politicians were making, or had made, to society. I could find nothing on people like Jeffrey Donaldson, other than their ceaseless sectarian battles to keep the taigs out of power. The "common good" evidently meant nothing to them.

Exactly, when the one sure way to address poverty, inner-city desolation and get some economic growth going in the OO heartlands is education, rather than state-handouts as called for this week - what do we have - the same occasional high-profile-when-it-suits unionists arguing for extensive academic selection and continuity of a defunct education system that condems thousands of their "people" to the educational wasteland ....makes me wonder what the unionist political classes plan really is...?

It is time for real community leadership in the loyalist community, people need to throw off this blind devotion to the political parties, paramilitaries and OO and get themsleves educated and open their eyes to where we are now! If not it will be another 25 yrs before the next generation do and by then it will be too late

Having been sat in the stand the night the blast bombs were thrown over the wall at Windsor near the Cliftonville fans, my abiding memory was the massive cheer that went up from those very same fans because they were under the impression it was the IRA attacking Linfield fans!!

good post

looking in

I'd like to ask a simple question in relation to OO parades,, why must they march through catholic areas to their buses to board on route to a parade elsewhere?
The OO gather at the bottom of the Newtownards rd, form ranks and march past St Mathews chapel, once they get past the Strand, they fall out board buses and head off to their parade, be it in Derry or beyond, what is that about?

Grimesy,

The incident involving 5 Protestants being shot at over the peace wall at the Short strand was as follows (look it up on the bbc archives if you like):

The Catholic gunman was seeing dancing on the roof of the houses after he took pot shots at innocent people. The were boarding up houses at the time of the shooting!!

You call shooting unarmed (teenage) boys in the back, men shot whilst boarding up their homes and a cross-community worker shot whilst trying to talk some sense into the youths DEFENDING YOUR COMMUNITY???

I think it is shocking that you would support this.

I use facts to back up my arguements - citing census data and independent news sources. Victor1 stills tries to argue the bit over it!!!

iluvni....having been one of the Cliftonville fans at the same match but in my case being in that stand, I can tell you for certain you are speaking absolute utter nonesense!

AS,

You're twisting words again!!

This was Victor's quote:-

"A community under siege does not shoot 5 innocent Protestants"

My reply to this was:-

"Shooting 'prostestants' (sic..apologies) differs from shooting 'loyalist ethnic cleansers'.

I also said:-

"Anybody engaging in any kind of religious pogrom deems themselves above the law & should suffer the consequences, however equally unlawful they may be."

WHERE DID I SAY THAT SHOOTING INNOCENT PROTESTANT TEENAGERS WAS OK?!?

Twisting words AS!

To clear the confusion ONCE & FOR ALL:-

I would never, ever, ever advocate any violence towards any INNOCENT PARTIES - regardless of creed.

I do wish to make this point:-

If someone was attacking my home, in this VERY EXTREME EXAMPLE, they're fair game...Dawson Bailie might even call it, "an eye for an eye"...!

VICTOR1 - FYI the community worker let refer to him as 'RL' who was shot by the Catholic gunman from the Short Strand is not a loyalist paramilitary. He is simply a youth worker in a loyalist area - doesn't make him a loyalist.

I still find it amazing that you think he deserved to be shot by automatic gunfire!!

He was there to help stop kids causing trouble.

I use facts to back up my arguements - citing census data and independent news sources.

Independant news sources, such as the BBC now your really having a laugh!!The nonesense you refer to especially with regard to a gunman dancing on a roof is so far removed from common sense it barely needs a response too it, but here it is nonetheless, any gunman who shoots anyone imho wishes to get as far away from the scene as they possibly can, not dance on a roof in one of the most militairised regions of Ireland after carrying out such an attack, don't you think so AS?

I have to say that I wish I'd never found the sluggerotoole website. I find most of the opinions expressed here fundamentally depressing; nevertheless it makes for addictive reading! I rarely comment but thought I'd throw my tuppence worth in, although I'm sure the more erudite and politically aware among you will find what I have to say rather dull.

Firstly, as regards the weekend: an absolute disgrace. I was 14/15 when the ceasefires were first called so I fortunately haven't had to live through what many of the older commentators had. Notwithstanding this I am aware of the past through various media. The events of the last number of days were something I thought I would never again witness post Drumcree. I don't care what the IRA did or didn't do in the past - that is no justification for what has happened. The excuse being peddled by Paisley and his motley crew, by Empey, by the Orange Order, that this is some sort of response to the government's "appeasement" of the IRA is nothing short of outrageous! There are no concessions - full stop! What is happening is that the threat to the British government in the form of the IRA is being gradually removed and a normalisation of life is occurring in Northern Ireland. These people were called out into the street in an attempt to force the parade down the Springfield Road. In my opinion, the residents should have let them pass and stood at the kerb side and clapped and cheered and sang the Sash as the marchers paraded past. Nothing would have disconcerted them more. These people live in a very deprived area where educational attainment is low, unemployment is high and criminality thriving. What the events of the last weekend have done is to ensure that there will be no investment in these areas: who would want to invest there when the likelihood is that when the Orange Order can't get its own way on a future parade their investment will be razed to the ground? Nothing short of a tremendous own goal. There should be a file prepared for the PPS with a view to prosecuting unionist leaders for incitement to public disorder (as a minimum).

Secondly, I should like to challenge Antrim Springfarm's assertion that Catholics are "ethnically cleansing" Protestants from areas. I come from west Belfast. I'm a young professional who wants to get onto the property ladder. (Un)fortunately I can't afford the price of properties in the west and so am looking to North where the property is more affordable. If I move into an area where Protestants live am I ethnically cleansing the protestant population by buying a house there? Let's use the example of the Ballynafeigh area. Once a staunch bastion of protestantism and now a mixed area verging on being a middle class Catholic area. The cost of houses there is beyond the reach of the people who inhabit there and so more and more young professional catholics are taking up residence when the houses go on sale. Is that ethnic cleansing? No, it's nothing more than economics - supply and demand. You might be happy living in a "protestant area" - I'm not happy living in an area where that is solely catholic. Some of us, the future of the province, want to get along and live side by side with each other. You, on the other hand, need to get a life!

AS: you can refer to him in any which way you wish, I shall for the sake of continuity continue with the truth, Leading Loyalist Paramilitary in East Belfast.

Grimesy, you obviously didn't get this but I'll explain it to you.

The quote "A community under siege does not shoot 5 innocent Protestants" was NOT FROM VICTOR1. He was quoting it in his response. It was my quote!

WHERE DID I SAY THAT SHOOTING INNOCENT PROTESTANT TEENAGERS WAS OK?!?

I wasn't saying you did say that. I was saying that to VICTOR who OK'ed the gun attack.

But I am glad you cleared up the confusion and you do not agree with Victor1.

ILUVNI, I wouldn't worry about Victor's analysis of the events at the chickenville match as he can't even remember making a post today about the justification of shooting Protestant teanagers and a youth worker.

AS,

"Grimesy, you obviously didn't get this but I'll explain it to you."

I was actually directly quoting from your 9.18 post in my reponse, where you did quote Victor. Please see the comment for further details - no need to explain/clear anything up for me, thank you very much....

I'm also sure I agree with Victor, because I'm certain that Victor doesn't condone attacks on innocent Protestants. Moreover, I believe that he/she also advocates the protection of his/her's property by force when under Loyalist attack.

Victor1, don't know where you get your dangerously insane information from but both the Guardian and the BBC refer to RL as a respected CROSS COMMUNITY youth worker. Not my words, theirs. But you will most likely disregard this along with the census data etc etc.

We are hardly going to have a 'Mad dog' character as a CC worker are we???

Yet again you come out with dangerous, evocative, libelious statements that could in the wrong hands see an innocent family man murdered.

Shame on you!

Good post, Curious.

Oh dear Grimesy you STILL don't get it. OK once more here we go. Yes I did quote Victor but in his post Victor was quoting a line from a previous post of mine. Do you get it? It's not that difficult.

so he never said the quote "A community under siege does not shoot 5 innocent Protestants"

I said it. Victor doesn't believe the people shot were innocent!!!

Has the penny dropped yet?

John East Belfast,
you can't compare the GAA and the Orange Order as they have completely different goals and histories.

But I would like to clear up a few things you brought up.

The GAA is there to promote Gaelic Games and the Irish language but it doesn't have restrictions on who can play or join as you imply.

In contrast, the Church of Ireland calls the Orange Order "Anti-Roman Catholic". I admit the GAA in its statutes and symbolism is "anti-union" but I would prefer to think of it as "pro-Irish culture and pro the Irish Republic" as evidenced by how it works and how successful it is.

I would not call the GAA anti-Protestant or anti-British. There may be anti-British, anti-Protestant people in it but it, as an organisation, is a positive force for the Irish people as a whole, Catholic, Protestant and dissenter. This is important.

Also, the GAA isn't the political animal the OO is, it was never affiliated to the ruling political party as the Orange Order was, for example.

The overwhelming majority of GAA people aren't from Northern Ireland and aren't afraid of being swamped by anything, except maybe good-looking Poles and Lithuanians.

There isn't the same siege mentality here that there is over the border.

I accept there may be that siege mentality in much of the northern GAA as evidenced by their attitude to foreign games at Croke Park, the lifting of the ban on British soldiers playing etc.

However, they went along with the views of the majority, living in the peaceful Irish hinterland.

As Britain is now also the enemy, there is no quiet, peaceful unionist hinterland to "soothe" and "talk sense" to the Orange Order so the siege mentality people are in control.

The reason there is nothing contentious about what the GAA does is because it is confident in itself and not trying to impose its will on another community and only sets up clubs and plays matches where there is support.

What I was comparing was what the 2 organisations were doing for their communities last weekend as they are seen as being the "cultural" (give me some leeway on cultural there) vanguards of their respective communities -British and Irish.

While the GAA was charging the hearts of the Irish people last weekend, the Orange Order was pushing the poor Protestant people of Whiterock further into the mire.

I really do believe the Orange Order could be a force for good on this island if it followed the path the Church of Ireland has taken over the past few decades in its attitudes towards Catholics but as it is now, it is a timebomb waiting to explode.

It will be the poorest who suffer most as they are the ones who have bought in most to this siege mentality.

AS,

I get it!...can you not see that I also justified in my last post where the initial confusion came from? Can't believe we're wasting time on this...!

Victor,
More importantly, would you please clarify your position to AS? - he's back to twist an earlier post of yours again!

We are hardly going to have a 'Mad dog' character as a CC worker are we???

I think you'll find we already did!!short memory there AS ooops
The Guardian and the BBC highly respected news sources they are..eh? I also believe the same media sources claimed a certain King Rat as a born again christian!!! And here we go again,putting words and meanings in where they don't exist....dear oh dear...Dawson Baillie springs to mind.
Libelious.....WHERE?
Evocotive.....WHERE?

It will be the poorest who suffer most as they are the ones who have bought in most to this siege mentality.

Exactly, when I listen to the spectrum of unionism, as an outsider, I am more and more of the impression that it is a power-struggle of those on top keeping their foot down hard on the unionist/loyalist working classes and duping them into doing their bidding and dirty work.

So the BBC are also loyalist Sympathisers??? Now you are just going into the sublime Vic.

Calling a respected cross community leader a 'leading east belfast loyalist terrorist' is libelious in anyone's books.
Careless talk costs lives.

Then saying he deserved to be shot along with teenage boys - well that is just simple lunacy.

Jonny Adair was a cross community worker??? huh?

There is no twisting Grimesy. Please Vic clarify yourself.

"I'd like to ask a simple question in relation to OO parades,, why must they march through catholic areas to their buses to board on route to a parade elsewhere?
The OO gather at the bottom of the Newtownards rd, form ranks and march past St Mathews chapel, once they get past the Strand, they fall out board buses and head off to their parade, be it in Derry or beyond, what is that about?"

No one seemed to want to answer your simple question, Victor, so here goes.

It's about provocation. This is the entire raison d'être of the Orange Order. I thought everybody knew that.

Very good point looking in, wasn't it Hugh McClean a convicted UVF murderer who claimed way back in 1966

I am terribly sorry I ever heard tell of that man Paisley or decided to follow him

Seems nothing has changed within Unionism in all these years! Pity really.

In relation to the points raised by looking in and VICTOR1,

Wasn't the whole story of Unionism in the late 19th century based on the fact that the industrial and professional middle classes and the aristocracy, to secure their positions, stirred up sectarian resentment among the working class protestants - the whole "Home Rule is Rome Rule" ?

Grimesy you can read Victor's posts on his attitude to the shootings here

Read from my post - 07:40 PM

This thread seems to have gone a bit skeewiff.

The usual number of OO apologists are conspicuous by their silence.
After watching the UTV news tonight I had to then watch on BBC because I really needed a double take. If it wasn't related to such serious events Im sure it would be catalogued in many of those 'blooper' programmes we now see.
Some of the posts here defending the indefnsible have just had me sitting shaking my head in disbelief.
I know what I saw on TV preceeding the weekends events and no amount of spin would convince me or any right thinking, objective individual that the OO were not in some way responsible for initiating and fuelling the mayhem that followed.
I hope this event becomes one of the last nails in a coffin for such an outdated, bigotted,sectarian club of halfwits.

Antrim Springfarm is it not past your bed time?

iluvni,
I was also at Windsor park the day the grenades were thrown and I can assure you I wasn't feckin' cheering and neither were my mates.

Headmelter, the loyalists are just reading the Republican's manual entitled "How to get ahead in Northern Ireland".

Only problem is they are reading Vol 1 and are trying the violent tactics previously employed by SF/IRA.

Who did the cheering then, Headmelter?...hardly Linfield fans when we all thought it was the Provos attacking us.

Springfarm,
I can't remember reading that manual myself nor may many other republicans, and judging by tonights OO 'press conference' it would appear to me that the OO leaders may have difficulty reading anything more advanced than 'Dick and Jane' or 'Spot The Dog'.

iluvni,

Our memories of that day seem to be somewhat different.
It appeared to me that there were indeed some cheers but these seemed to eminate from both sets of supporters. The Reds fans at the far end of the Kop and the Blues fans in the corner of the 'new' stand beside where the grenades came over the wall. For info I was in the KOP just up from the turnstiles, not far from the explosions.

It's enough to say it was the last time I was at Windsor Pk, and would make me very hesitant about ever returning.

George
If the loyalists and/or Orangemen refuse to change their attitudes, would you still welcome them into a United Ireland?

Moderate Unionist: If there was a United Ireland, Loyalist/Unionist wouldn't have the attitudes they currently have, their attitudes at the moment come from fear and are fed by lack of political leadership, in a new Ireland and with a little vision, they would prosper along with the rest of us on the Island of Ireland!

George
'What I was comparing was what the 2 organisations were doing for their communities last weekend as they are seen as being the "cultural" (give me some leeway on cultural there) vanguards of their respective communities -British and Irish.'

As a Brit - albeit from the larger island across the water, I find it quite laughable that the OO is described as the 'cultural vanguard' of britishness in NI. The people of the rest of the UK have little or nothing in common with these people, and abhor the scenes we have seen the last few nights.
Generally the rest of the UK has a lot of sympathy with unionist people, due to IRA campaigns on the mainland, but this will very quickly be lost if events carry on in this fashion. The UK is becoming more secular and just can not understand why Loyalists continue to riot, kill and involve them selves with organised crime.
As far as we are aware the principle of consent has been enshrined in the GFA, the Irish Constitution has been changed, and a border poll will not change the status for Donkeys years. Therefore the Union has never been constitutionally stronger. The only people who can throw this away are those 'most loyal' to the union, because at the moment we over this side of the sea have bugger all in common with you and are rapidly getting arsed off with your immature behaviour, blatent bigotry and attacks against the old bill.
Get on with making Northern Ireland an inclusive and viable part of the UK!

Oh, and get a better PR machine, because the one you have at the moment is awefull.

Moderate Unionist

There are marches by the orange order in the south. And they are seen as a peaceful family occasion for all.
some of these OO men are local and a lot travel from the North. There is no violence.

It's the atittude that's not welcome, not the people.

"Generally the rest of the UK has a lot of sympathy with unionist people". I disagree with this Nick, because of the poll in 2001 in The Guardian showing only 25% wantes NI to stay in the UK, with 41% supporting a United Ireland. However I agree with you about British people abhoring the disgraceful behaviour and ethos of the OO.

Antrim Springfarm:"I think you will find that many Unionists have condemned the violence. The fact of the matter is the Gov got it wrong - they banned the parade because they thought they would get more trouble out the Republicans. But as per usual they have ignored the feeling of Prods for years and have now seen the fruits of this explode in their face."

The biggest problems is the unionists are turning into Palestinians - they never miss an opportunity to miss an oppotunity. SF would have taken the amended route and complained to high heaven as they marched through the wasteland, a couple cute poppets in tow, of the blatant discrimination of the committee. Instead, the Unionists go for the last (and first) refuge of the incompetant -- near-mindless violence, perpetrated by men in what has to be the silliest costumes this side of the Gay Pride parade in Greenwich Village, NY.

"PS the guy waving the sword should be banned."

Why, thankee, Anrtim, for your small mercies...

Holywood movie producers are after the guy waving the sword to star in Braveheart 2

Moderate unionist,
"If the loyalists and/or Orangemen refuse to change their attitudes, would you still welcome them into a United Ireland?"

A united Ireland can only come about if a majority in NI vote for it so isn't likely anytime soon. But let's say a majority decide on unification.

I don't care what their attitude is and welcome them with open arms as long as they don't indulge in wholesale bombing, shooting, rioting, murder etc. and respect the democratic wishes of the people of this island and work within the parameters of, and with respect for, the state.

In other words, I would welcome British people, Protestant people, dissenters etc. but not unionist terrorists on a mission to kill.

If they take the terrorist path and declare war on the rest of us on this island in the hope of usurping the democratic wishes of the people through terror and slaughter, then I assume the new unified Irish state will have no choice to engage them in battle, with every citizen working to the best of their ability to defeat this threat by any means necessary.

Or do you believe we should succumb to the terror and ignore the democratic mandate for unity?

What do you think the "new majority population" in Northern Ireland should do in this scenario? Silently accept this?

Say "better not leave the union because the loyalists will start indiscriminately murdering us all if we do"?

I wouldn't be surprised if "no surrender" became the catchphrase against such unionist insurgents.

Headmelter,
We'll agree to differ then but ffs, don't give me the oul keek about how that would put you off ever returning to Windsor Park.
You sure you weren't there for the cup final a couple of days after the Reds won the League?

"Darthrumsfeld, by IRA figures do you mean Provisional IRA"
-Kevin Lynch's GAA club, Dungiven,named after 1981 PIRA hunger striker.

Darth
"Flying a republican flag and playing a republican anthem over loudspeakers before a match is just as unpleasant for a Unionist to endure as a loyalist band belting out "The Sash" outside a chapel. "

Laughable. You'll need to better than that I'm afraid."

Yaeh- you tell me what I should find offensive. Why should I have the temerity to hold opinions different from yours?

And then along came George...

"Over 80,000 at a state-of-art stadium to watch the all-Ireland hurling final. Millions of euros made for the city of Dublin with no rooms to be had for love or money."-Yup, with millions of taxpayers Euros I bet the Orange Order could have a state of the art field in every town on the Twelfth too. Funny how the poor sods who live beside Croker don't seem too keen on this wonderful influx though. And your point seems to be that a big cultural event is ipso facto a good one. So the biggest cultural event in NI is.....(hint: it happens on the day after the eleventh of July-ooops)and the amount of money it puts into our economy by way of travel, catering, and yes alcohol sales is significant...except to begrudgers like you of course

As for GAA mobs attacking Protestant homes probably no club as such organises a petrol bombing daytrip-just as no Orange lodge sets out to attack the police, but there are countless examples of general yobbishness by suppporters against people of all and no politics- like the damage to houses in Ballygawley last September,or the publicans from Slane who complained about the behaviour of Tyrone fans a few years ago. But shure the bhoys have to have their hi-jinx, don't they? Or perhaps the GAA shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of those who enjoy it-oops , can't argue that one either in the context of this thread

"who better than the GAA to show our Chinese friends what Irish culture is about?"
- how about the street cleaners in Temple Bar on a Sunday morning?

"Actually wait a minute.

A handful of thugs out of nearly 3 million GAA fans last year would be enough to denounce the GAA in unionist eyes."

Actually wait another minute.

A handful of thugs out of hundreds of thousands of Orangemen, families and supporters would be enough to denounce the Orange in nationalist eyes

"And unionists wonder why Irish people don't bother listening to them any more."

LOL
And the last time you listened to us was...?

Answers on a post card to:

George
"Dunshootin(for the moment)",
The Hill of Tara,
Fourth Green Field,
Land of Make Believe

entries to arrive before Strongbow came and spoiled it all.

Isn't it interesting how George squirms in admitting that the GAA is anti-Union but prefers to see that as pro-Irish (as if Unionists aren't irish). Yet the OO can equally claim that it is pro-Protestant as the obverse of being anti-RC, or indeed anti-atheism, anti-muslim. But I don't think george would let me away with that one.So let's have sauce for the goose George.

"2004 OO income: unknown
Number of members: 40,000-WRONG down from 100,000-WRONG- and falling-WRONG AGAIN" NI footie fans "Keep Believing" while George "keep dreaming"

"iluvni....having been one of the Cliftonville fans at the same match but in my case being in that stand, I can tell you for certain you are speaking absolute utter nonesense!"

illuvni..having been one of the Bluemen in the South Stand at the same match I confirm your version, and it's on a UTV videotape somewhere if someone's memory needs refreshed.

Trolling is when a contributer to this blog makes a savvy comment that is so critical of unionism to the point where it may elicit outraged responses

actually trolling is giving birth to Barry McElduff

I'm glad you find what I write interesting Darth.

Care to tell me the number of Orange Order members you believe rather than saying the figures I cited were "wrong".

The University of Ulster did a study and found that the numbers have dropped from 100,000 to 40,000. Could you tell me why you don't accept that figure? Give me your figure.

I am pointing out that the Orange Order is proudly Anti-Roman Catholic while the GAA isn't "anti-British".

There is a difference between 21st century Protestanism amd Orangeism.

An Orangeman "..... should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome, and scrupulously avoid countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act or ceremony of Popish worship; he should by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy of that Church, its encroachments and the extension of its power."

Tell me where the GAA mentions the errors of being British or opposing it? It doesn't. You don't have to accept what I say, but I am going to tell you anyway.

As for squirming, please don't demonise me just because you don't agree with me.

George - your Sept 14 posts were truly superb - keep up the good work. As a matter of interest do you live in the North or the South?

Sir Reg Emphy commenting on the rioting--found some peoples behaviour innapropriate---no shit Reg

I am a southerner appalled.

"As for squirming, please don't demonise me just because you don't agree with me."

demons don't squirm- just naughty little boys who are caught out. The University of Ulster study to which you refer- if you quote it accurately- is wrong. The Institution has the same membership in 2004 as it had in 1904. It's actually probably double whatit was in the mid 19th century. Membership peaked in the early 1960s, after which there was a decline into the early 1970s, and a stabilisation thereafter, with a modest increase in the 1990s. The figure of 100,000 members is an oft repeated myth, but sadly for your thesis it has never been at that level in the history of Northern Ireland. if you are relying on the contents of the seminar held in 2004 at Jordanstown as your source, the compiler of the monograph on the figures was careful to stress this.
And no, I'm not going to tell you the current figures, because it would spoil your fun if you couldn't mope that you didn't get that bank loan/job offer/good time round the back of the City Hall because "they're all jaffas". Now you'll just have to live with the awful prospect that you got the knockback on merit.

Oh I grant you the GAA has had a different type of political activism, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been up to it's neck in political activity- see the banners in the Hunger strike rallies as an obvious example.

You don't have to like the Orange Order, you'll be relieved to know. But doesn't it give you even a second's thought that the vast majority of Unionists would rather watch crown bowls than the extremely exciting sport of gaelic football? Might there just be somewhere in your head the smidgeon of a realisation of the chill factor its politics engenders and encourages? Or is it more comfy to just put us all down as bigots? Yup. I know the answer to that one.

Darthrumsfeld - I have absolutely no time for GAA - I think it's pointless, twee, parochial shite. That said - the Orange Order? Come on!?!?!

Did you SEE the press conference on TV last night?!?!?!?

Have you ever ATTENDED a parade and recoiled at the sheer staggering awfulness of the participants and their neanderthal 'supporters'.?!?!?

Listen mate, attacking the GAA is fine in my book, but don't try to do it by inviting comparisons with the BIGGEST shower of biggoted clowns on this island.

Reg has been shown up for the wimp that he is? I wonder what silvia has had to say - since I saw she met Hain today too!! - especially given her connections to the police!!!!

Reg has been shown up for the wimp that he is? I wonder what silvia has had to say - since I saw she met Hain today too!! - especially given her connections to the police!!!!

Oh I grant you the GAA has had a different type of political activism, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been up to it's neck in political activity- see the banners in the Hunger strike rallies as an obvious example

Darth, that is completely incorrect. The biggest political upheaval in the GAA over the past 30 years was the refusal of the GAA at national congress to pass a motion backing the hunger strikers put forward by the Ulster council. A little bit of Googling will back this up. The GAA as an organisation refused to condone the hunger strikers despite the pressure from the northern members.

Darth,
you refuse to give what you believe to be the membership figure of the Orange Order and expect me to believe that isn't 40,000?

You repeat that you believe the figure given by a University of Ulster study was wrong but don't back it up with any evidence.

And as for your "Jaffa" comment why do ascribe sectarian tendencies to me just because I question you.

In fact, and I know you don't like them, a "Jaffa" across the table generally means I'm a shoe-in for the job but, hey, this is the Irish Republic, home of contradictions.

The more commonly used term here in Dublin is "Miwadi".

I pointed out in an earlier post Orangeism does not equal Protestantism but you constantly seem to equate the two.

Your refusal to say what you believe the number of Orange Order members to be is evidence to me, as if I needed it, that less and less Protestants, or "Jaffas" as you call them, are interested in, or believers of, the Orange ethos.

How far out am I with 40,000?

I, for one, am delighted at the ever-growing distance between the OO and the largest Protestant church south of the border, the Church of Ireland, for example.

Ringo tell me why a 'sporting' organisation should be debating the issue of hungerstrikersat all?

George et al
Nice of you all to respond to my post.
If the loyalists and/or Orangemen refuse to change their attitudes, would you still welcome them into a United Ireland?

The consensus seems to be that Unionists attitudes would need to change (or would inevitably change) before being invited into a United Ireland.

Just for the sake of argument, if you were a Unionist (who didn't want a United Ireland) would you change your current attitude or not?

No consent, no United Ireland.

iluvni,

"We'll agree to differ then but ffs, don't give me the oul keek about how that would put you off ever returning to Windsor Park.
You sure you weren't there for the cup final a couple of days after the Reds won the League?"

Afraid I wasn't at the final I had moved away by the time the Reds managed to win any thing worth while since '79. But that was the last soccer match I attended in the six counties. This match along with a couple of other uncomfortable incidents at Windsor and other grounds would make me hesitant about a return not only to Windsor but to an Irish league match.

"The biggest political upheaval in the GAA over the past 30 years was the refusal of the GAA at national congress to pass a motion backing the hunger strikers put forward by the Ulster council. A little bit of Googling will back this up. The GAA as an organisation refused to condone the hunger strikers despite the pressure from the northern members."

..er, so the fact that the Ulster Council attempted to raise a political matter in a sporting body proves that it's not a political organisation? it's to the credit of the GAA as a whole that it had the wit to knock them back, but you prove my point- Northern GAA counties have had a politcal agenda. I mean, what would people say if warwickshire County Cricket Club tried to get the ECB to pass a vote condemning George Bush's policies in Iraq? Wouldn't it strike you as a bit abnormal? We don't have much to do with Mayo or Carlow in NI- but we do see what our fellow Ulstermen in the GAA did- and it was politics.

George- you can't just throw out phrases like " A university of Ulster Study" (unspecified)as Holy Writ, especially as if it's the one I refer to, I have attended the seminars, debated the academics, and got the t-shirt to show that it is wrong.

Life's too short to keep arguing the point- just take it from me when I say it's wrong- and no, I'm not going to claim that 40,000 is a hideous underestimation, but it is signifiacntly wide of the mark ( its not an over-estimation either before you get excited), and what does it matter if we are 10,000 or 1 million strong?

I think you wilfully misunderstand my point about the term "jaffa". What is always undeniable though is that we are the biggest community group within NI, far in excess of GAA membership, and yet we are ignored. I don't pretend that every Protestant is in sympathy with the ethos or aims of Orangeism, yet if actual membership is about 1 in ten of the adult male population, then you can factor in the wives and children, siblings, parents, of the actual members to see the enormous sympathy for the aims of the Order. You seem to think big culture is good culture-hence the spraying of figures showing the GAA's financial acumen about; that political culture is bad culture- hence the denial of any political dimension to the GAA, kindly debunked by Ringo; that violence can be justified in the context of bad cultural expression ( that's not "justified" in the sense of your excusing it of course, but in the sense of it being rooted in a militaristic form of culture)-hence the bad culture that is orangeism with its quasi-military ethos( you're obviously not a fan of the Salvation Army either), but not apparantly the violence of a full blooded contact sport.

"I, for one, am delighted at the ever-growing distance between the OO and the largest Protestant church south of the border, the Church of Ireland, for example."

So would I be , if it were true, and not just because the average RoI Church of Ireland cleric is weaker than a kitten on the theology of his Church, but because Churches should be open to all but not in anyone's pocket.

But interestingly it's not true, because Eames has networked with more Orangemen than any of his predecessors, as have many other senior clerics. The engagement hasn't always been sympathetic, but nor should it be.

And sniffy anti-Orange clerics in the C of I isn't new, as readers of the late Bro( for a very short period admittedly!) Sean O'Casey can confirm.

The Church of Ireland cannot distance itself from Orangeism without distancing itself from the Orangemen who sit on synods, vestries, and other parish. Orangesimmwas oroiginally strongest in the Cof I, and probably still is, though because membership is strongest in Anrim, Belfast and Down, the percentages of overall religions probably show an almost equal Presbyterian input. In the average rural Cof I parish I bet a larger percentage of church members are Orangemen than in the neighbouring Presbyterian church.Not too many churches in NI could close the doors to a Lodge Church service without experiencing a significant loss in terms of key and active members, collections , etc. Which brings us neatly to the interesting subject of the partitionist mentality of the southern C of I, admirably exemplified by yourself.

I'm glad you can snuggle down in your state with nary a care for the institutional snubs to the former identity of your co-religionists in Eire, and curently of your co-religionists in the wee 6, because it obviously works for you.

But if you casn't share our aspirations then at least don't denigrate them lest you achieve what you wish for. I mean, how many nice Church of ireland buildings will become carpet showrooms, coffee shops, and garages if we stop pouring thousands of our British pounds into subsidising your congregations? Where will all those freshfaced young curates from NI be replaced from , if the Church splits because of the pampered southerners? It might be in your interests to be a little less aping of the Old English, who as we know became " More Irish than the Irish themselves"- and where is their cultur or identity now?

"I'm glad you can snuggle down in your state with nary a care for the institutional snubs to the former identity of your co-religionists in Eire, and curently of your co-religionists in the wee 6, because it obviously works for you.

But if you casn't share our aspirations then at least don't denigrate them lest you achieve what you wish for. I mean, how many nice Church of ireland buildings will become carpet showrooms, coffee shops, and garages if we stop pouring thousands of our British pounds into subsidising your congregations? Where will all those freshfaced young curates from NI be replaced from , if the Church splits because of the pampered southerners? It might be in your interests to be a little less aping of the Old English, who as we know became " More Irish than the Irish themselves"- and where is their cultur or identity now?"

Listen mate - your spelling, grammar and general grasp of syntax are matters for yourself - but REALLY, this shit is just incomprehensible.