"I have it on good authority that we should get belted in for a fast ride - on demilitarization, the economy, major cross border cooperation, justice issues, peace dividends, and the restoration of the assembly"

Posted 10.43am

How are you enjoying the ride so far?

Its entirely despicable that Michael Shilliday should use this in an attempt to smear his political opponents. This is an unspeakable act of betrayal by a lily-livered British government.

However, bloggers will recall that when this issue was first raised by a certain public representative he was told he was talking rubbish and hounded from his party for it.

I wonder who that MP was Mr. Sillyboy?

*Ahem*

"Providing the enabling environment is established and maintained this programme will be achievable within two years though if the conditions are right to move more quickly in implementing elements of the plan, the Government will do so."

Poetry Corner

In memoriam Ulster Defence Regiment

So. Farewell
Then UDR.

You had a most
Confusing name.

We always confused you
With the UDA.

But that is
Understandable.

As the nationalists who
Suffered under you.
Will attest to.

Including the members of
The Miami Showband.

Who because of you
Are singing another tune
In heaven.

E.J. Thribb (age 17½)

Ah, the price of being the leading voice in Unionism. I wonder will it be claimed that this is more of the outworkings of a UUP/SF deal from..pick a year?
Responsibility without power - the prerogative of the eunuch and the impotent throughout history.

EJ Thribb

What a pathetic post - not only does it not rhyme, it's a load of old sh*t to boot.

Are you not a fan of Private Eye then, Ginfizz?
Clearly not, I would think.

Ginfizz -
I think you may want to Google for "satire" old boy.

A very cheap shot, Mr. Shilliday,particularly so from someone who was chief flag-waver on this site for the UUP.

You may have a point that the DUP couldn't stop this---but what, exactly, did your party stop under its own watch?

This is a sad day for Northern Ireland and a sad day for unionism. Have you learned nothing from your purile toadying during the last election; or are you simply one of those people who will use any opportunity for your own personal and political advantage.

Grow up. Many good men and women gave their lives for a better and safer Northern Ireland. Please, don't debase their memories with petty point-scoring.

Soldier On I think its a case of pot and kettle. The DUP made alot of PR out of similiar acts and they have said and done many a (lawful) but underhand deed to destroy unionism per se. The problem about voting for people who promise you dreams is that they often fail to appreciate realities; as such they become paper tigers.

Good to see!
Hopefully thats another bunch of lunatics of our backs - now if only the loyalists could take the hint .....

Michael Shilliday

I thought I heard Atwood let slip on TalkBack that this was part of a package that had been agreed three years ago and put on ice until the republicans delivered. Now, who would have been doing the agreeing back then?

That aside we are clearly in a process of crude plitical barter - you want a statement, we want our child killer; you want us to stand down, we want you to disband. Two things are clear:

a) sometimes the republicans can have their bluff called. We do have a statement whilst the Garda killers remain inside and

b) there will come a time when unionists can play this game - we want you to form an executive, what do you want? When that time comes the DUP should have a very long list.

HAIN'S STATEMENT IN FULL

"In April 2003 the government set out proposals to normalise the security profile across Northern Ireland when there was an enabling environment.

Following the IRA statement of 28 July, we are now moving quickly to begin that process.

Today I am publishing planned normalisation programme agreed with the chief constable and the Army GOC [General Officer Commanding Northern Ireland].

My first and over-riding priority and that of the chief constable and the GOC is the safety and security of the people of Northern Ireland.

We will not do anything that will compromise that.

Provided the enabling environment is established and maintained this programme will be achievable within two years though if the conditions are right to move more quickly in implementing elements of the plan, the government will do so.

The programme published today will see the creation of an environment which will allow the return of conventional policing across Northern Ireland.

Update to Annex 1 of the Joint Declaration

This paper provides the updated version of the normalisation programme which was promised in the government's statement of 28 July.

The steps which will be undertaken in a normalisation programme assuming an enabling environment is created and maintained will be as follows:

Within the first eight months, in an enabling environment, we would have achieved:

The vacation and closure of Forkhill Base; the removal of Tower Romeo 12 in South Armagh; and dismantling of the super sangar in Newtownhamilton. Work has already started and will be completed within a six-month period

The removal of the observation post at Divis Tower in Belfast and the two observation towers at Masonic in Londonderry. Work is beginning this week and will be completed within a six-month period

The successive removal of two towers in South Armagh G10 (Creevekeeran); G20 (Drummuckavall). Work will start within a few weeks and be completed within a six-month period; with the sites restored to Greenfield status as soon as possible

The publication of a structured plan for phased reduction in troops to peacetime levels

The continuation of the review of the police estate with action taken as agreed with the Policing Board following consultation with district commanders and local communities, including work to defortify some 24 police stations.
Within the next 12 months, in an enabling environment, we would have achieved:

Further defortification of police stations. Progressive development of and extension of varying patrol patterns: eg single beat officers, bicycle patrols and opening of police shops

The vacation and demolition of the remaining South Armagh towers. These sites, with the exception of a Blue Light communications site at Crosleive, would be returned to Greenfield status as rapidly as possible thereafter

Progressive withdrawal of soldiers from sites where co-located with police in Armagh (Crossmaglen, Newtownhamilton, Middletown) and in Fermanagh and Tyrone

The removal of the military base within Maydown police station

A reduction in troop numbers in line with the published plan

The return of private property on vacated sites.

Within the final four months, in an enabling environment, we would have achieved:
Further implementation of the police estate review, as determined by the Policing Board

Additional opportunities for the police to patrol without the use of armoured vehicles

The vacation and demolition of the observation post at Rosemount in Derry

The vacation, closure and disposal of all military sites to leave no more than 14 core sites

The further reduction in Army and other service levels, including the disbandment of the operational brigade headquarters, to a permanent military garrison of no more than 5,000. The size of the longer-term garrison is likely to fluctuate in response to global demands on the Army and its overall complement

Repeal of counter terrorist legislation particular to Northern Ireland."

PERHAPS SHILLIDAY AND JO, WHO APPEAR TO BE SALIVATING AT THE THOUGHT OF SCORING A POINT OFF THE DUP OVER THIS ISSUE WOULD CARE TO TELL US, WHICH PARTY WAS LEADING UNIONISM WHEN THESE PLANS WERE DRAWN UP?

PART TIMERS

This is my neighbours field
And today my battleground
These small acres are known to me
My children watched hares fight in the sandholes
Without protection
But now I might reap a bitter harvest
From these hedgerows alight with blazing Whitethorn
The stand of hazel trees is my redoubt
And I can dwell momentarily on the indifferent clay
There's good grass th'year
We might get a second cut
If I live to see the end of it.

So the DUP's promises to the electorate
*NO MORE CONCESSIONS TO SF/IRA WHEN YOU VOTE DUP" have all fallen on stoney ground.

The DUP have sold the Unionist people down the drain. They accused the UUP of treachery over the name change of the RUC and UDR. But at least wehen the UUP were top Unionist party we still had the PSNI and the RIR .

NOW THE DUP MP's and 31 MLA's HAVE SOLD THREE COMPLETE RIR HOME BATTALIONS DOWN THE RIVER LAGAN FOR GOOD.AS CONCESSIONS TO THE SHINNERS.

A message to all Unionists dont forget who to vote for at the next MLA election.

Like the Grand old Duke of York Big Ian and the DUP have marched up to the top of the hill. Now its time for them to march down again.

As a member of the Unionist community, I support this move and future demilitarisation, on the assumption that the RM keep their side of the deal.

If Republicans decide to further delay any move to a unitary state by resuming a campaign of sectarian slaughter, then I am sure that the government are quite capable of putting troops on a plane and generally winding the clock back.

I may be one of the few, (altough I suspect there are many), from a Unionist background who actually believe that the RM are serious about politics over mayhem. The challenge for Unionists is how to respond to the very real possibility that SF have actually got the correct strategy now to deliver a united Ireland. Never mind the fact that they are doing what the SDLP suggested in 74.

Time to waken up and smell the roses! The only people that want NI to remain a part of the UK are the NI Unionists. We aren't that important in the scheme of things.

There are going to be a lot more decisions coming down the track that point in one direction. To me, it is a matter of going through a couple more decades, (maybe generations), of constant bickering, cantonisation and general hatreds before unity, versus stepping back and looking at life, (short as it is), and then deciding what is really important. It isn't flags!

I see the Army keeps up its 'fine' tradition of treating its ordinary soldiers in a disgraceful manner.

To be king you must find the good in every situation. The NIO has learned nothing from the RUC debacle. However, the more they peeve off Unionists the easier for the DUP to stick to a long timetable and come January the more they will ask for as confidence building measures in Unionist communities.

Michael

"Well done the DUP, clearly concessions to republicanism have stopped since they are providing leadership that's working"

SIGH! Your absence had been greatly enjoyed.

The following seems to have slipped your and the UUP's memory.

From June 2003 (TCH archives)

"A leaked British army memo had signalled plans to scrap the RIR's three "home battalions" once paramilitary violence had ended in the North.

The plans would form part of the British Government's demilitarisation commitments under the recent Irish-British declaration on implementing the Good Friday Agreement.

The leaked memo caused uproar among unionists, with anti-agreement UUP hardliner Jeffrey Donaldson calling a meeting of the party's ruling council to discuss a proposal to reject the joint declaration in its entirety."

From utv website

"Discussions about redundancy programmes have already taken place and military chiefs have held talks with trade unions about the impact on civilian workers."

The NIO statement makes clear this is a commitment of the Joint Declaration.

"Update to Annex 1 of the Joint Declaration

This paper provides the updated version of the normalisation programme which was promised in the government's statement of 28 July."

The Unionist community will require at least the following before forming an executive that includes SF:

1. The abolition of the Parades Commission.
2. The restructuring of the entire human rights/ equality sector.
3. A programme of at least £75 million investment in Orange/community halls.
4. The abolition of 50-50 recruitment.

This day will not be easily forgotten. I hope Peter Hain rots in Hell.

This is fantastic news.

The UDR and RIR will be forever remebered by many (nationalists) as the UVF and UDA in British uniforms.

The fact that it drives unionists mad is even better.

Look wake up. If we are going to have progress then we need dramatic anouncements like this. Ditto for the front loading on demil.

Unionists can stick their head in the sand and pretend that last thursday din't happen or didn't mean anything. BUT the reality is that it did. Everyone else in the world recognises this.

If unionists want to keep their colective heads in a bucket it will not make it go away.

It will only get much worse. The GFA was as good as it gets for unionist. If they don't wake up the alternatives will be even less plapable.

The Dog

Good to see parity of esteem is alive and well.

3. A programme of at least £75 million investment in Orange/community halls

I've just had a thought. perhaps the PSNI and the Orange Order could do a straight swap in accommodation. police stations would then be easier to burn which is a clearrequirement in the 'normalisation' policy also known as 'Shinnerization.' Orange Halls would be conversely protected and allowed to become cherished listed buildings with sangers and big gates to slam shut.

Is this a flier?

...to continue the impotence theme of my earlier post, there could JUST be some connection between that unfortunate condition and the tendency to compensate, say, through the use of florid over-the-top language and attempts to inject vitriol as often as possible into posts on the internet?

Its just a little thought...perhaps jumping up and down a lot might help?

Jo

Fair enough point. I'm just extremely angry. Sorry.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the job of a soldier is ultimately to kill people isn't it? They're not the police who catch criminals, they're not the fire brigade, they're not an ambulance crew.
A soldier trains to use a gun, or explosives, knives, missiles etc. to kill.
In my opinion its no concession to anyone but common humanity to have less people around who are armed and have been trained to kill. Another good day for the north.
Its just a pity that unionist mud slingers are too busy apportioning blame for this "catastrophe" to recognise it as a positive development for the north. Another destabilising is going - happy days!!

If these were plans devised under the UUP, why were they not implemented then? Why are they being implemented two years down the line? What have the DUP done to stop them? Why have they not stopped the concessions as they promised?

Ginfizz - you've every right to be. I'm just trying to be flippant as a coping mechanism. However, in my view the failure of physical force republicanism and it is a demonstrably total failure to win the day is in part down to the people in uniform who stood up against them. Let them have their grubby phyrric victory celebration.

Scéala den chéad scoth!

Enjoy your retirement boys & thanks for those lovely romantic nights we spent together, you with your jack-boot on my neck and me, eating grass. Or those other enjoyable interludes with you pushing me up against the wall and spitting on me or squirting piss at me from a bottle on my way home from school!

You'll be missed...

Sillyboy

Because as you recall, the so-called "sequence" was suspended over the failure to decomission in an open and transparent way. The details were agreed during Trimble's watch, now that the Ra has satisfied the vile Hain, all the goodies have been served up. When Jeffrey Donaldson warned that this was coming, you and others like you in the Official Unionists denounced him and said he was talking rubbish.

What did the Secretary of State say? Read the staement before trying to score points.

Another poster has said in trying to use the issue you are exploiting the sacrifce made by the men and women of the RIR - I couldn't agree more. Despicable tactics and disgusting behaviour, made all the more ironic by you penchant for referring to figures within your own party by their military titles.

Ginfizz where did you pull that figure of £75M from? did you get someone round to a quick estimate?

That's a very colourful memoir Baluba!

Sillyboy

Because as you recall, the so-called "sequence" was suspended over the failure to decomission in an open and transparent way. The details were agreed during Trimble's watch, now that the Ra has satisfied the vile Hain, all the goodies have been served up. When Jeffrey Donaldson warned that this was coming, you and others like you in the Official Unionists denounced him and said he was talking rubbish.

What did the Secretary of State say? Read the statement before trying to score points.

Another poster has said in trying to use the issue you are exploiting the sacrifce made by the men and women of the RIR - I couldn't agree more. Despicable tactics and disgusting behaviour, made all the more ironic by your own penchant for referring to figures within your party by their military titles.

"Because as you recall, the so-called "sequence" was suspended over the failure to decomission in an open and transparent way. "

And who suspended it? The DUP have failed to stop the sequence even though not a bullet has been decommissioned!

QUBOL

Roughly 300 halls = £250,000 per hall

Yeah Baluba,
Spoke to the old nostalgic side of me.
And to think that most of their fans missed this fun-loving, crazy, goofy, knock-about side of the RIR/UDR.
If only they knew.

"If these were plans devised under the UUP, why were they not implemented then? Why are they being implemented two years down the line? What have the DUP done to stop them? Why have they not stopped the concessions as they promised?"

Exactly Michael,

All this ranting and raving by the DUP that the Protestant people of Northern irelaand were safe in their hands when they won nine westminister seats at the last election has all been false promises.

Now the RIR three home battalions are being disbanded and the top Unionist party the DUP cant do a thing about stopping it.

Sillyboy

So the scheme was devised on Trimble's watch? Thats good to know. The Secretary of State made it very clear who has responsibility for this - your party and your now happily-departed leader are to blame for this.

The only reason the "sequence" was stopped was in the vain hope of propping Trimble up during the ensuing election campaign. If he had have emerged the victor of that contest I have no doubt that this would have been agreed much, much earlier.

£250k a Hall!
some of those halls are nothin but holes in the hedge - your havin a laugh wantin that much money - and I know what your gonna say - the fact that they are holes in the hedge means they need the money.
What Rubbish - I think I'd rather see £77M going to schools or hospitals - which brings us to the other side of todays fantastic news - maybe we can put all the wasted resources spent on the RIR to some proper use instead of our taxes supporting the British Armies Bully Boys.

Dry your eyes kids - it really is all for the best.
What is the negative side of this? Can anybody explain to me logically why its a bad thing to have less soldiers (never mind ones of a dodgy calibre) knocking around?

er, I still think the Protestant people (and all those other guys/gals) are still safe, despite the dismantling of the towers and the disbandment of a militia - none of which prevented Omagh, the massacre of the Hanna family, the killings of Bob Buchanan, Harry Breen, and Lord Justice Gibson and his wife...

By the way, Mr. Shilliday, the government today has imposed the destruction of the Home Batallions of the RIR over the heads of the Unionist community and our representatives, it is a disgraceful despicable act. However, what was more disgraceful and more despicable was the Unionist Party that signed up to and supported the sacrificing of the RUC as a sop to republicans.

Today occured without the DUP's consent, the treatment meated out to the men and women of the RUC was served up by the UUP.

The Scene: Jim'll Fix It, BBC, 1980

"Dear Jim,
Please can you fix it for me to decimate the British Army presence in Northern Ireland.

Yours,
Peter Hain
Troops Out Movement
Age 30

------

Jimmy Saville: "Right then right then right then. No problem Peter - give me 25 years to manoeuvre you into the right position - something like Secretary of State might just swing it. I promise to make all your wildest dreams come true."

------

Posters remind me of how the penguins in Madagascar might put it.."we've been ratted out boys.."

Steady, chaps...er, I still think the Protestant people (and all those other guys/gals) are still safe, despite the dismantling of the towers and the disbandment of a militia - none of which prevented Omagh, the massacre of the Hanna family, the killings of Bob Buchanan, Harry Breen, and Lord Justice Gibson and his wife...now remind me, who was it killed 3 young Protestant men recently in Belfast?

oops time for some judicial editing lol

Maybe Mr. Shilliday would care to link Ian Paisley's response. Or has Slugger simply become a tool of the Ulster Unionist Party?

Paisley's response

The Government needs to learn that they are no longer dealing with David Trimble and Reg Empey. The era of pushover unionism is over. There will be a penalty for the Government to pay for the decisions it has taken to date and a further penalty if there are more concessions. When we meet the Secretary of State on Wednesday we will set out the penalties which we will impose and will raise the matter with the Prime Minister face to face.

f-d: "we"?

This thread is becoming a little surreal.
Still nobody has been able to logically explain why this is such a tragedy for unionism in general, and the basis for one of the most childish "its yer fault - no its yer fault" discussions I've ever followed on Slugger.

Grow up guys - time and situations move on. They, like the IRA, are not needed.

Given that the so-called RIR soldiers are going to get massive redundancy pay outs - talk about paying off the terrorists - shouldn't the IRA get a similar deal?

Oliver

No.

"So the scheme was devised on Trimble's watch? Thats good to know. The Secretary of State made it very clear who has responsibility for this - your party and your now happily-departed leader are to blame for this."

But as you pointed out, my party stopped it happening in November 2003, what has yours done about it?

Northern Bank?

I didn't realise we had to be grateful to the DUP for each day that dawns. They should get real - themselves and their penalties. If they don't like the IRA statement, they should be made to put up with joint authority. That should bring them to the negotiating table pretty quickly. We have yet to hear them convincingly repudiate their links to unionist terrorist groups.

Shilliday

Your party betrayed the RUC and willingly signed them away. Trimble devised this scheme and the government has imposed it today. There are obviously things over which Unionism has no control, but there are also things over which we do have control.

For further details see Ian Paisley's statement.

Every concession pushes the devolution further away.
Given what your party has done, I dont think your in a position to lecture anyone. Quisling.

I'm not sure why some posters are getting their knickers in a twist over this.

Unfortunately nobody has a guarenteed job for life these days and the armed forces and public services are not exempt from this.

I don't recall similar outburtsts of grief when private sector workers lose employment en masse.

Any chance of sending the kids to their rooms? I thought this was supposed to be a discussion forum.
Ginfizz / Shilliday / anybody: Why is this a tragedy for unionism?

In 2003 republicans didnt do what was necessary, as you pointed out. Therefore the UUP stopped the sequence. They have done nothing tangable as yet yet the DUP were not in a position to stop this happening. Why?

Jo

The 'we' refers to the DUP (don't think he's doing a thatcher)

The UUP stopped the so-called sequence for politically expedient reasons. Trimble actually made a point of blaming the general because he planned to start things up again post-the assembly election - read Godson's book. The reason why it was stopped was because the government was trying to stop Trimble from going down the swanny. They failed.

Today, the government has whored itself to the Provos in order to get decommissioning, but Blair will discover on Wednesday that Unionists are not as compliant a Trimble was. Every concession makes a return to Stormont les likely.

Furthermore, perhaps you would care to tell us Mr. Shilliday why your party signed up to and supported the destruction of the RUC?

Perhaps Mr Ginfizz you could explain to us all why you so desperately want to shake any trace of reponsibility of this off the DUP.
They're not eejits and, like us all, knew full well these kind of steps are necessary for progress - they let it happen too, and I'm glad they did, becasue they realise that this mean absolutely nothing!!
Is a ghost argument only going on in the heads of those who think it might matter, but can't explain why.

Mr. Shilliday why your party signed up to and supported the destruction of the RUC?


Maybe cos someone in the UUP had the wit (optimistic as it is) to see that the RUC would never be acceptable to Nationalists because it was a Unionist Police force for a Unionist People. Just like the RIR - a legitimized Unionist Army - how happy then to see the bunch consigned to history like the RUC and as Paisley also mentioned the B Specials - another great bunch of fellas.

F-D:
Yes, sorry, I didnt realise at first that you were quoting the Doc.

The language is rather threatening in a "we shall cut off our noses to spite you guys." He's right though that there is a penalty for this - its the £500 per household that Direct Rule Ministers will hit each and every one of us with in the absence of devolved government to put the brakes on Water Charges!

I see that Michael Shilliday is back to his pre-election 'best'. I know that all blogs aren't meant to be unbiased, but surely are limits - even just in terms of the thought which are put into them.

Tell me Michael, who was leading unionism when the Joint Declaration was agreed? No - maybe you wont answer that one.

Read the statements today - they specifically mention that these are the outworkings of that agreement, lovingly negotiated and supported by the UUP, or maybe Mr Shilliday can explain why the Secretary of State described it as a "shared understanding" amongst the parties.

The UUP did nothing to stop any previous implementation of the Joint Declaration - in fairness they actually probably weren't able to do anything but the blame lies there because they negotiated it in the first place so its hard to complain about later. Perhaps Michael can outline in some detail how the UUP stopped the removal of watchtowers etc which took place under the UUP 'watch'. They simply set the wheels in motion and some wheels take longer to turn than others.

well said Jo -

Paisley said the DUP dont need devolution as much as the rest of us - nonsense!

Paisley pays tax doesnt he and although he can well afford it on his multiple incomes I wonder if his voters scrapping a living will be quiet so forgiving of someone who through inaction is making them pay the REAL costs of direct rule.

Does it ever strike you Ginfizz, that HMG and SF may already have a plan B if Big Ian et al. throw a strop?

What's he going to do? What do you think will play better with nationalists - the end of the RIR and the evacuation of the British Army or a couple of ministries in Stormont? Get real, people.

What, Big Ian will refuse to be First Minister if the RIR is disbanded. Really? Do you promise? Please?

Oh, we might be left with Direct Rule? Oh God, that's scary! Lets see, no RIR, no Army Bases, End of the watchtowers, further London Dublin co-operation, possible speaking rights in Seanad, Beefed up powers for councils giving practical power to nationalists in various parts of the country anyway, the slow but likely rise of SF int he south, the nationalist parties able to work together again, the governements of both island putting the blame for any impasse on the unionists - oh, and now you're offering not having to look at the Doc's mug as First Minister as well?

Throw in a fat man in a red suit and a tree, cos that's christmas!

"Tell me Michael, who was leading unionism when the Joint Declaration was agreed? No - maybe you wont answer that one."

And how much of that declaration had been implemented before today? The IMC - thats it. The sequence was stopped by the UUP because republicans didn't measure up to what was required. Little more has been achieved to date, yet the DUP were unable to stop the sequence being started!

Beach Tree:

Very good post.

Not much point being a dog in a manger when there's turkey on the table!

Unionists should note very closely the ill concealed glee with which young Shilliday posted and presented this thread.

The UUP used to criticise the DUP for blaming them for everything- sometimes rightly, but usually in a vain attempt to divert attention from their failings. Only Burnside has actually said anything about preventing or reversing this- all the rest are trying to blame the DUP for its admittedly reckless claim that the concessions had stopped. The government will always sell us out- but the days of spineless acquiescence by the UUP are over. This move is both necessary for the Provos and a test for the DUP.

The dilemma is, if the government now go for one final push to break Unionist resistance, what will Unionism do. Burnside recognises the challenge- as does Paisley. POlitiics have changed completely and nothing is sacrosanct any more. The only people still in denial are babies like Sillyboy and the UUP yes camp who can't recognise chickens coming home to roost, even when they get covered in the chicken shit.

Jo

Thank you very much.

What some of our erstwhile unionists seem to miss is that the only player in the Game Tony really wants to keep happy is Bertie Ahern! Not Iann , Sir Reg, Mark or Gerry . Bertie, in reality is Tony's closest friend and ally on the Island.

Bertie wants peace and quiet up north, and so long as SF and SDLP aren't gurning in his ear he's peachy. End of violence? Lovely! End of the nationalist tantrums about Crossmaglen? Sweet. Possible chance in the future to get the PD's of his back, and therefore a large number of PD hating TD's, possibly without even having to give a SFer a ministry? Priceless.

Since neither SF nor the SDLP, nor frankly Bertie are emotionally attached to Stormont - as long as plenty of direct concessions flow, I wouldn't say they give a fiddler's about the Big House.

It has been Unionists after all who traditionally loved the place - it was Ian who had to be carried bodily from it in the 70's!

As ever, the worst ends of unionism are still out of step with the dance. My only concern is whether a few of them'll attempt to appeal to the 'dark forces' again.

Any odds, people?

Michael,
I know that history only ever started in 1998, and then of course there was a second year zero once the DUP took over, but maybe your rather short memory has dismissed some of the events resulting from the Joint Declaration.

Did you miss the troop reductions outlined, the defortification of police stations and the closure of other border posts and military sites which are all contained in the Joint Declaration. The stuff today is about stage 2 of the process long since started.

B-T
Which dark forces would they be? They'd need to move quickly as I understand a showdown is imminent with Johnny due for release anytime about now.
I suspect his re-alliance with the LVF will give both that group and the UVF something other than Stormont to think about for a while...

I hope I'm not intruding in a personal tragedy if I point out that this is a product of the sort of Direct Rule which unionists threatened nationalists were.

This is one staunch nationalist prepared to accept the pain of it all - and beg for more! ;-)

Jo

I suppose I'm thinking more along the lines of Third force/Ulster resistance, which was after all Ian's historic methodology - His goal of course being to goad us all back into a sectarian and violent conflict he can quickly disown, to re-establish the status quo.

But if the green side where to manage to keep their powder dry in the face of any such threat or provocation (a big if to be honest) would we enter a new phase? The Crown forces assembled against the 'other' side?

i don't really know, it's all speculation, but I just can't see what other weapons big ian has that will actually do anything...

I know this is too complicated for the Trimble fantasists to understand, *but*, the reason why we in the UUP won't benefit from the government doing now disagreeable things you moronically delight in* is . . . because the bad things the electorate blamed us for in the last 4 polls were bad things we defended, implemented, and in some cases, directly financially benefited from. Say what you want about the Paisleyites — and I think the Doc himself is a sectarian bigot who has damaged Unionism even more than Trimble — but they, unless us, aren't now in the position whereby they're forced to defend what has just happned to the RIR, let alone carry it out.

The sooner Empey drives you fools out of the Party, the better.

*Really, is that the best you can do? Hain takes a swipe at the security forces,a nd the issue for you is a dimwitted opportunity to try and attack the DUP?

Sorry, that, of course, was 'unlike', not 'unless'.

Well done the Doc, Baby Doc, Peter Punt et. al. for defending unionism and making sure nothing else was lost.
I'm sure the soon-to-be-redundant RIR squaddies can't wait for the next election to indicate their deep appreciation.
Isn't it great now that unionism is offits knees?

Welcome back Mr Stalford

I had thought the DUP had banned you from blogging since you became Cllr Stalford and there was all that buisness with Newton and Billy and Willie.

Good to have you back

What do you think of the news?

Great isn't it!

Mr Shilliday,

On a related point, would you care to defend your purple former leader when he went to Ronnie Flanagan in 2000 and asked if he could use his influence to get watchtowers in South Armagh removed? You take the opportunity to launch a typically ill-judged attack against the DUP, when your own former leader was ready to leave border Protestants defenceless just to save his own political neck.

"Roughly 300 halls = £250,000 per hall"

What kind of halls are you wanting to build?
the majority of these 'halls' are ramshackle, corrugated tin huts.

It is being reported this afternoon that the GOC NI has announced that the Home Service Battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment are to be disbanded.

I suppose photographs are out of the question.

It's interesting to see unionists protesting against the decisions of direct rule ministers by thretening to extend the period of direct rule.

Just watched Pailey Snr. on the UTV news.
He was rambling all over the place.
So much for the grand protector of all things unionist - pathetic.

Unionists,

I hope you noticed that the disbandment of the RIR didnt even get the customary judas kiss from a royal visitor ,like happened with the RUC and UDR-just before they were wrote off----maybe your not regarded as being important enough by your "mainland" brothers and sisters any more---and I really hope those Loyalist friends of yours (whom of course none of you have anything to do with)dont go on Taig butchering spree in retaliation to this latest sell out

Karl, you do amuse me. Mr Shilliday does raise an interesting point which you (and others) have completely ignored!

If the sequence could be stopped in Nov 2003 by the UUP, why couldn't the DUP stop the same sequence in 2005? And of course I understand that you believe that it was actually stopped as part of the big "save dave" conspiricy, but given that the UUP have form with the (fairly successful if flawed) carrot and stick approach, it would seem clear to me that Trimble did actually stop the sequence on matters of principle.

"You take the opportunity to launch a typically ill-judged attack against the DUP, when your own former leader was ready to leave border Protestants defenceless just to save his own political neck."

Watchman,

David Trimble was backstabbed by the a government not once but many times. The DUP and ( lundies within the UUP) just stuck the knife in futher to promote themselves.and gloat at UUP lose four westminister seats at the recent election.

Now the shoe is on the other foot . Lets see Doc Paisley and all those lundies who joined him save their own political necks by trying to save the RIR from being disbanned?

when Dr Paisley is ranting like he is, you know he knows the game is up. Tony Blair will not be bullied by his threats... like sulking children.
Hurry up and Die you anachronism

Still no answer to the repeated question by circles, so here goes again :-)

Ginfizz / Shilliday / anybody: Why is this a tragedy for unionism?

Anybody? Hello?

This was such an important piece of news it wasn't even mentioned on the 'national' news.

"Hurry up and Die you anachronism"

Before he dies I wonder will he wear sackcloth and ashes and present himself on his knees before his God to ask for forgiveness for all the evil bigotry and selfrigheous hatred he manipulated and stirred up over the past 40 years between Catholics & Protestants in Northern Ireland.

Traditional Unionist
Interesting to see you defending the policies of David Trimble to get back into government with a fully armed Sinn Fein/IRA.

The UUP never stopped anything to do with the Joint Declaration - that has been happening all along since its negotiation by Reg and co over two years ago. They may have put a halt to their pre-election dance and not set up Government at that time, but absolutely nothing else was stopped. Its interesting that the UUP have reverted back to the 'big lie' method of attacking the DUP - keep repeating it fellas, maybe one person will start to believe you.

Since we're about repeating unanswered questions then how about Mr Shilliday or any of the other newly re-energised UUP fanatics giving their views on the UUP asking for the removal of the security installations, the removal of which they are now protesting about.

Blinking right G2
Not only is your post 100% correct, but within the context of him bemoaning the existence of the IRA..... and not even bringing himself to say one hallelujah afer the statement last week, plus his pathetic posturing on an issue of great concern to republicans, namely the British Army Prescence.. it make you wonder how long his ticker is going to be able to sustain the level of stress he is putting himself under.

Henry94 wrote:

"It's interesting to see unionists protesting against the decisions of direct rule ministers by threatening to extend the period of direct rule."

Now THIS is funny :0)

G2 wrote:

"Before he dies I wonder will he wear sackcloth and ashes and present himself on his knees before his God to ask for forgiveness for all the evil bigotry and selfrigheous hatred he manipulated and stirred up over the past 40 years between Catholics & Protestants in Northern Ireland."

Many Christians don't appreciate that it's the third commandment Mr Paisley has continually broken.
I wonder what God will make of that....

Jacko,

"Just watched Pailey Snr. on the UTV news.
He was rambling all over the place. "

I think not! He was consise, to the point and frank.

Do I sense some jealousy that Sir Reg didn't get a studio interview??

If you would focus your attention on the important matter at hand and not on bitter feuding it would be appreciated.

[That is a red card, Truth - ed. Mod]

TRUTH:
Extrememly objectionable and obscene remark. You deserve a red card.

suffolk-west-belfast
"I think not! He was consise, to the point and frank."

You must have been watching something else. Probably the BBC news which showed him merely reading a prepared statement (drawn up by someone else) on the steps at Stormont.
As for the live interview on UTV, what was the nonsense interjection about Kelly all about? He didn't give anything like a coherent answer to one question. My impression was that he was afraid of being asked how this happened on his watch.

To make a serious point:
All the DUP yapping today msises one glaringly obvious point - not ONE RIR soldier has got his/her cards today. All that has been made is an ANNOUNCEMENT of a plan, in much the same way as the IRA has announced its own plans. If the IRA doesnt do what it has promised, the RIR will STAY.

Besides which, if they really want to be soldiers as distinct from play at it, they can join the regular ARmy and serve in Iraq - one of the more effective laxative solutions.

Ciaran Irvine
It isn't.
But what it is, is another example of the Doc et. al. picking another issue to battle on that they can't possibly win but will allow them to present themselves as super Prods. He's been doing it for decades and it always works.
By the time it comes round to disbandment of the RIR no-one will give a toss.

TRUTH
Try to stay focused on the subject at hand, there's a good lad. (Though if you do happen to find anything out on the other front be sure and share it with us.)

"and not even bringing himself to say one hallelujah afer the statement last week,"

Ofcource not why should he. This egocentric blowhard who has hidden behind Gods word never ever wanted peace to begin with. In fact his rise to fame was based on continous strife and sectarian hatred which he was a past master at stirring up himself over the past 40 years. His goal was to bust the UUP and win over the thickheads within the Grand Orange lodge of Ireland to help him , so as to come over to his side to help him become the supreme Unionist party in Northern ireland.

In any normal peacetime society he would have been no more than an eccentric backstreet 1950 style blood and thunder preacher no one in their right mind today would even pay attention to.

Thy will be done dear Lord. may death when it comes have its sting, but the bells will be ringing loud and clear for both prods & taigs alike in Northern ireland when he goes to meet his maker.

Jo
"Besides which, if they really want to be soldiers as distinct from play at it, they can join the regular ARmy and serve in Iraq"

Hardly the most sensitive remark, or nowhere near accurate either, given that hundreds of them were murdered. Often off-duty and in front of family, friends or workmates.

G2
Couldn't have put it better myself.

The sense of my comment was if those still in the RIR, (as distinct from those killed, and I intend no disrespect to them) want to be soldiers their experience could stand them in good stead for the regular Army, if they want to continue in military service.

"Besides which, if they really want to be soldiers as distinct from play at it, they can join the regular ARmy and serve in Iraq - one of the more effective laxative solutions."

Of course they can Jo. Then these RIR guys who never leave Norn iron can get a chance to fight against real *TERRORISTS* for Queen and Country. As Tony Blair dosn't consider the IRA to fall under that so called category anymore.

Maybe it was because SF leader Gerry failed to wave the Koran every time he spoke on TV

G2:
I understand 1 section (battalion?) of the RIR does actually serve in Iraq. Personally speaking, my own experiences of the regiment, going back some years, would suggest to me that the battle there for hearts and minds would not be assisted by the attitudes of many of the soldiers who I have encountered.

This is from 2 years ago...

"Northern Ireland regiment will be cut to the core

Rosie Cowan, Ireland correspondent
Wednesday May 28, 2003
The Guardian

The army is to press ahead with plans to disband most of the Royal Irish Regiment, despite the IRA's failure to destroy all its weapons and end paramilitary activity, military sources said last night.
As revealed in the Guardian last month, the three home battalions are to be phased out as part of the British/Irish government blueprint to help persuade the Provisionals to move on decommissioning.

Some of the 3,000 full- and part-time soldiers in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Battalions will be given the chance to transfer to the 1st [general service] Battalion, which served in Iraq under the Belfast-born Lieutenant-Colonel Tim Collins, but most will have to leave the army, according to an army source who spoke to the Guardian in April.

Now it has emerged that an internal memo to senior officers from the general officer commanding in Northern Ireland confirms that the cuts, codenamed Operation Banner, will "inevitably mean the disbandment of the home battalion element of the RIR." Trade union representatives have already been consulted about redundancy packages.

Unionists are furious at the dismantling of units they see as heroes in the frontline against terrorism.

The RIR hit the headlines recently because of the controversy surrounding Col Collins, currently the subject of two separate investigations - one for alleged war crimes in Iraq, the other regarding the overall management of the regiment, which some soldiers claim has a vicious and pervasive bullying culture."

I'm puzzled about why unionists have taken it upon themselves to be bothered by this move which really has no effect on them whatsoever. The RIR troops in any case spent most of their time in the barracks. A normal society does not have troops everywhere.

With today's news, the British government is sending a few important messages. First of all, it is reiterating the policy it has had towards unionism since the suspension of Stormont in 1972, namely that if you refuse to play ball, we will simply go over your head and do a deal without you. They did just that in 1985, and would have done again in 1998 if Trimble hadn't headed them off. They will keep doing it until you guys get the message that you will have to start stepping up and taking responsibility for your actions.

With the arrest of Sean Kelly and his subsequent release, the British government explained to the republicans that if they refused to play ball then the government would quite simply put them back in jail again, with the flourish of a ministerial pen. With hindsight, it appears that Kelly's arrest was tactical; the government likely wanted to sharpen the minds busy considering how they would proceed with the IRA's winding down. The republicans got the message, as their statement and the imminent decommissioning process will likely show.

The overall message is - stay in the game, play the ball, and you will take home the prize. The unionists need to start understanding that. Unionists are utterly powerless to block decisions made by the British government.

Jo

I think the RIR (RIRegiment) is made up of the bits that only serve in NI and are there to provide back-up to the police, and those bits that serve world wide (formerly Royal Irish Rangers). I understand, and I may be wrong, that the latter will continue, and will continue to have barracks in NI as currently at Ballymena.

All:

This thread is pretty negative and shows UUP and DUP posters in a pretty pathetic light, as well as some unattrative gloating from nationalists.

I have some problems with the timing of the announcement, but overall do not see why we need these unusual arrangements to be made into the longer term, provided the police can indeed operate without army backup.

So I think there are some measured criticisms to be made, as Alliance did, but the two main unionist parties didn' conduct themselves that well.

Things are not that gloomy for unionists. In fact they are not gloomy at all. Unionists have to be realistic, however.

To build on Beach Tree's blog :

....we might be left with Direct Rule? Oh God, that's scary! Lets see, no RIR, no Army Bases, End of the watchtowers, further London Dublin co-operation, possible speaking rights in Seanad, Beefed up powers for councils giving practical power to nationalists in various parts of the country anyway, the slow but likely rise of SF int he south, the nationalist parties able to work together again, the governements of both island putting the blame for any impasse on the unionists - oh, and now you're offering not having to look at the Doc's mug as First Minister as well?.....

Can I add SF's increasing all-island dimension that when (& if) the Doc is ever ready to do a deal - he'll have the embarassement of SF putting the coalition deal on offer to their ArdFeis in Dublin...- the Doc will avoid this - so SF doesn't need any help to make the place ungovernable - its inevitable. YOu gotta hand it to McGuiness, game,set and a couple of match points!

Jo,

Here is the RIR website:
http://usite.army.mod.uk/HQNI/Royal%20Irish%20Regiment.htm

If they do disband in two years time its my belief only those full time soldiers (serving in the home Battalions) will be offered a transfer to other regiments in UK to finish their 21 years service for pension.

All the rest (partimers) will be disbanded as they are still considered civilians who serve one or two days a week part time.

Part-timers are awarded a medal for 12 years service called a Northern Ireland Home Service Medal, "NIHSM" see website: http://www.udrassociation.org/Medals/NIHSM.htm

Full time servicemen are not intitled to this medal. They have to do 18 years to get their long service & good conduct medal.
http://www.kotfsc.com/aviation/decorations/alsgcm.htm

Dont people think it wrong of successive British governments to keep sending young British men,who had no other prospect of employment in their own country except the army---to occupy/(and bolster a section of biggots who insisted they were super British in) an area where the majority of their fellow country men and women didnt want/knew almost nothing about/and werent in the slightest bit interested in keeping=6 counties

Now the thanks they are getting from the Unionists who they protected---lets send them to IRAQ where they can do some real soldiering---gratitude or what--its not a bit wonder they cant wait to get out as does TB

Let us not overlook the true reason for unionist outrage. The parttime UDR/RIR gigs are a nice little earner. Pork barrel nepotism that won't be handed out to the unionist community anymore.

slug, wise words. The unionists, to me, are basically showing weakness in the face of the IRA's statement. The DUP's harder negotiating line has already delivered fairly clear results, but now that those results have come they are falling to pieces, what with this nonsense over the Dail and the insane screaming over the RIR. All of this lends credibility to the notion that some people have that the unionists are going to have a hard time without there being a bogeyman for them to complain about.

I'm reading Paisley's statement today and he's saying ".. we want to make it clear that [the government] will pay a high price for the approach that is being taken." Exactly what price is Paisley going to make the government pay ? Why do unionists labour under this weird notion that they have some kind of power (other than using the threat of loyalist violence) to force the government's hand ?

simple way for Westminster to deal with Paisley--cut all the DupS pay and little perks for as long as he denys the people of the north democracy.nothing hurts a man like through the pocket.

"Dont people think it wrong of successive British governments to keep sending young British men,who had no other prospect of employment in their own country except the army---to occupy/(and bolster a section of biggots who insisted they were super British in) an area where the majority of their fellow country men and women didnt want/knew almost nothing about/and werent in the slightest bit interested in keeping=6 counties"

A useful reminder of the fact that throughout the troules the Army stood firm and protected Northern Ireland and the UK from the threat of violence. In so doing the men of violence did not win and eventually ended their campaign.

Robert Keogh you are right to mention the financial costs. If there is no need for the RIR NI-based battalions the taxpayer should not pay them. We have to make government spending leaner and more efficient. The costs of Northern Ireland are partly due to security costs and there will be efficiency savings to be made that benefit the taxpayer (I like everyone pays too much!).

Great news

How will members be absorbed into other battalions.

Does the British army have a regiment for midgets

Great news. Should've happened years ago...

"If they do disband in two years time its my belief only those full time soldiers (serving in the home Battalions) will be offered a transfer to other regiments in UK to finish their 21 years service for pension."

It is also possible that they could create a second general service battalion for those who wish to remain in the Army. Lets not forget that only the Paras are a bigger British Army Regiment.

"Great news. Should've happened years ago.."

Young Irelander

It would have happened at least five years ago had Gerry implemented Sf side of the GFA by decommissioning IRA arms.

If the IRA dont keep their word this time then the British Government will keep the three battalions.

Traditional Unionist,

You could be right. However, the TA (Rangers reserve) RIR battalion is also based in NI. I think their headquarters are at Ballymena. They always have openings for full time older soldiers as instructors.

The 1st battalion RIR (like all UK battalions) are below batlalion strength at 650. They use TA soldiers to boost this strength overseas.

Wasn't it announced that the Rangers were becomming 5 R IRISH next year anyway?

When all is said and done did anyone else catch a glimpse of big Ians moses sandals as he came down the steps at stormont? Mind you he was pushed hard in the fashion stakes today by Peters shirt and Jeffreys tie.
I just can't seem to stop laughing today.

Must be a kick in the teeth for the RIR. Still what goes around....

Today it is the DUP’s agenda that dominates the political process with London, Dublin and Washington accepting our demands as fundamental prerequisites. The pan-nationalist front has been fractured and Sinn Fein is more isolated than ever before."

No more excuses, get it sorted.

30% soldiers in the 1st battalion RIR (now in Iraq) are from the Republic of ireland. And are probably from a Catholic background.

"That is why most of us join anyway. youve got about 30% Southern Irish at the moment, which is quite good."

But Catholics from Northen Ireland who join the RIR (1st battalion) get a hard time from their own people.

"Gary Hilton hasnt been home for more than two years. As a Roman Catholic serving in the Army, visiting family and friends can be a hazardous experience."

http://www.ulster-scots.co.uk/docs/articles/cultural/rir2.htm

After the recent news I wonder will anyone from Northern ireland want to join the RIR
part time knowing rightly they will be disbanded in two years? They had better change their recruiting ad's on the internet.

Recruits wanted for Home Service in Northern Ireland - FULL TIME and PART TIME 

We are also actively seeking recruits to serve in the Northern Ireland based 2nd, 3rd and 4th Battalions. Service in the Northern Ireland based Battalions will mean you are liable to serve only in Northern Ireland, however oppotunities are available for service with the 1st Battalion and other units on short attachments.

 If you are interested in joining the Northern Ireland based 2nd 3rd and 4th Battalions, then contact the Recruiting Officer on...

http://www.army.mod.uk/royalirish/recruiting_join_us.htm

Having read all your literary diarrhoea, G2, do you want to defend Trimble for requesting the removal of watchtowers way back in 2000, as described in Dean Godson's book?

Any other pro-Agreement unionist posters want to comment?

5-30am???????

The Watchman
What do you think we should do now? What is the appropriate response?

Good riddance to this infamous loyalist militia.typical unionist reaction to the end of "their" regiment.It had inextricable links to the uvf/uda.the systematic attempt to cause terror to the catholic population and its implemication in several murders(the miami showband massacre being the most famous)and providing intelligence and training for loyalists to target catholics.given the recent case for apologies one would be nice but i for one will settle for this final goodbye

How about emphasising the contingency of these measures on what the IRA actually do do over the next 2 years?

How many more times does it have to be said?

All of the jumping up and down on this issues is such predictable unthinking reaction - similar, I may say, to the hoo hah over the appointment to the Equality Commission a few weeks ago. One would have thought then the world was about to end...why on earth do people make such a fuss which ultimately shows their own impotence to actually achieve any meaningful change?

The very notion of imposing penalties on the PM shows that the DUP really have lost the run of themselves..

Good riddance to this infamous loyalist militia.typical unionist reaction to the end of "their" regiment.It had inextricable links to the uvf/uda.the systematic attempt to cause terror to the catholic population and its implemication in several murders(the miami showband massacre being the most famous)and providing intelligence and training for loyalists to target catholics.given the recent case for apologies one would be nice but i for one will settle for this final goodbye

Lest we forget, 30 years ago:

1976: UDR men jailed for Showband killings

Two men from the Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) have each been jailed for 35 years in connection with the murders of members of the Miami Showband.

Imposing the longest life sentences in Northern Ireland history, the judge said "killings like the Miami Showband must be stopped."

Thomas Raymond Crozier and Rodney Shane McDowell, both from Lurgan, Co Armagh, were sentenced for their part in a UVF ambush when three members of the cabaret band were shot dead.

Players were returning from a gig in Belfast in July 1975 when their minibus was flagged down near Newry at what appeared to be a military roadblock.

Two terrorists were killed by their own bomb as they tried to plant it in the back of the band's van. Three of the players were then summarily executed.

Police said they were dismayed that the gang of UVF militants had also been locally recruited into the British Army's UDR.

In court the judge said the death penalty would have been imposed had it not been recently abolished.

Isn't the DUP in impotent rage mode just a scream ? There's something very Oliver Hardy about it all, those elements of manic Basil Fawlty.

Class.

Fishfiss:

I dont know what yoyur gender is, but I think its a very male thing - nothing more frustrating than when guys cant get it up! ;)

DUP Manifesto Westminster 2005
"Today it is the DUP’s agenda that dominates the political process with London,
Dublin and Washington accepting our demands as fundamental prerequisites. The pan-nationalist front has been fractured and Sinn Fein is more isolated than ever before."

It is clear from recent events that republicans have proven themselves to be incapable of making the move to exclusively democratic means. It is time to move on. Send a clear message to the Government that it must proceed without Sinn Fein.

"We will not take this lying down" Poots

The very fact that the DUP are lost without a bogeyman to attack shows the hollowness of their rhetoric, the hypocracy of their respectability, and as our bright filly Jo points out: they can't get it up anymore :)

What are they going to do about it, gather at city hall and blow a big collective raspberry at HM's government ?

Well they're already in a huff with the rest of the world so that option's out, my guess is they'll continue to take their salaries and sip hot sweet tea while time slips by and the media indulges them in their puerile 17th century rabble rousing.

"We will not take this lying down" Poots

..stand against the washing machine then?

Fishfiss
Doesn't it remind you of a girl shunned at a dance hall who is no longer centre stage, because someone prettier has come along, so now she's sulking in the corner and refuses to dance
like a spoilt posh child.

spirit-level

Yeah the plain tomboyish one. Her mammy tells her she's gorgeous but has the wrong clothes, wrong hair, wrong glases, wrong teeth, wrong attitude and who can't dance. No man wants her. Deep down it's not men she hates, it's herself.

The arguement now seems to be between different types of local democracy.

Colonial/garrison democracy
Pluralistic/inclusive democracy

There seems to be no vehicle Unionists have to prevent the second type being implemented, which, by definition will mean a more Irish state.

abucs I blame Lloyd George way back in 1922 :)

It was always excruciating when DT ran whimpering to Downing Street everytime his stress levels hit the deep purple level - are we in for twelve months of whinging/gurning in Tony's (and then Gordon's)lugs before the DUP start acting responsibly and returning government to the people?

Can I suggest as an amendment to the Stop Water Charges campaign that all bills received should be forwarded to DUP constituency offices?

Fair enough spirit-level. More attention to democracy back then could have saved a lot of trouble.

I blame the wee bugger who shot Michael Collins meself....

Fair enough Jo

..or the weather that blew back the French fleet and revolutionary Army from the south west coast in 1796? ;)

The Watchman,
What do you think we should do now? What is the appropriate response?

Maybe Watchman will give the DUP a helping hand at writing another agreement, or think up some smart idea with which to save the three RIR home battalions from being disbanned. if the IRA totally decommision.instead of still trying to put the blame on David trimble.

G2,

If the government does go ahead with abolishing the home battalions, sadly there is little that either wing of unionism can do to stop it. However, it seems that this is a golden opportunity to inflict some damage on the Government for its blatant double standards over the IRA as opposed to al-Qaeda. Much will depend on whether the Opposition and the Tory press see this as an issue where they can harass Blair. New Labour has always been very sensitive about criticism over law and order and the task for unionists will be to encourage others to make as much noise over the betrayal of the RIR as possible.

I don't believe the IRA has any intention of decommissioning totally, so the premise of your statement is wrong. It's just as well that the UUs have a new leader, otherwise I suspect Trimble would have confined his girning to matters of timing or consultation rather than going for Blair's jugular.

I notice that you have no explanation for your former leader's watchtowers-for-guns proposal. That's not surprising.

"It's just as well that the UUs have a new leader, otherwise I suspect Trimble would have confined his girning to matters of timing or consultation rather than going for Blair's jugular.

I dont hear the new UU leader support your girning over Trimble. Instead here is what he said against the DUP regards the disbanning the RIR 3 battalions in the News letter today.

Sir Reg added: "Predictably, the DUP hides its embarrassment at further concessions to republicans by trying to blame the UUP for this decision. "Let us not forget that for nearly two years the DUP has been the larger unionist party and promised people that if they voted for them concessions would stop. The last few months have shown this to be a false promise."

Tell us Watchman Do you support Sir Reg's statement ?

The DUP were said to be shell shocked at this announcement, how so when accoridn to them D Trimbl conceeded it 2 years ago, surely they shouldve been expecting it?

This plus the release of sean kelly makes people ownder what other concessions the DUP have conceeded in order to get stormont back up and running

The Watchman
"However, it seems that this is a golden opportunity to inflict some damage on the Government for its blatant double standards"

Why??? What good does that do? Does it change the decision, does it make him more likely listen to the Unionist point of view, does it make him less likely to impose water taxes?

The problem for Unionism is that it has not got it's head around the fact that you cannot bite the hand that feeds.

No amount of Northern Ireland MPs, no amount of bluster and demonstrations will change the fact that Westminster wants a quiet life. It will continue to support us only in so far as this is easier than getting rid of us.

No bombs in London is their priority and they profess no selfish or economic interest in the place.

Bereft of ideas, you resorting to slagging people off. Let's hear a constructive way forward from you.

If the british government were being selfish, they'd get rid of northern ireland quickly. after all, you are costing them £8000 per unionist per year.

Money that could be spent in Britain.

Fraggle

Money that could be better not spent by allowing our taxes to be cut.

Watchman

Do you really believe that any Unionist leader has the ability to land any blows to Blair at the moment. News of his death has been greatly exaggerated. The Tory press are going to get far more mileage in attacking Blair out of the London bombs - immigration, multiculturism, intelligence failures etc - than they will out of NI. Provided the provies don't bomb London they can probably get away with quite a few more bank robberies before anyone over here cares.

Spat on
called a fenian b####d
my gaelic football bag getting urinated on during a search
a slap in the mouth for being a catholic
collaboration with uda/uvf etc.

slan abhaile UDR

G2,

Yes, I think the DUP was a bit too sanguine about its ability to block all kinds of concessions e.g Paisley's speech to the Independent Orange in July. But it's not a particularly damning criticism, especially when it comes from the party that took such a softly-softly line over the Joint Declaration. The DUP does have its weak points and the UUP will need to exploit them. But this matter isn't one of them.

DCB

I don't believe that unionists by themselves can land blows on Blair. But in a dispensation where national security is a hot issue, there is plenty of scope for others to expose the hypocrisy of fighting Osama whilst rolling over for Gerry, not least because if a state displays weakness in relation to one set of terrorists, it does so to them all. How the Tory front bench runs with the issue remains to be seen, but policing reform and the granting of Commons facilities to Sinn Fein show that Labour can be discomfited very easily even by relatively pedestrian criticism. I suspect if there is any anti-Labour mileage to be made over this surrender to the IRA, the Tory Party and Tory press will do so.

Moderate Unionist

Yes, when it comes to defending a unionist position robustly I am indeed guilty as charged. That's because I think one can be constructive without being a doormat. You can't be constructive to any good end if you don't have the self-respect to stand up to the Fake Tan Brigade in the hope that they won't charge you for your water. (It'll only work out at £25-30 a month, only a quarter what Mr Brewster would spend for a day at Highbury, so get over it.) Far too many UUP people are laughably passive: they think aggression goes no further than snatching the last crab puff at a Lady Sylvia soiree. Oh, and remember that "moderate unionism" is worth 1 Westminster seat, as you've come to know from experience.

The time to be constructive is when you're in a position of strength and not of weakness. If the UUP can discomfit New Labour for dismembering the RIR then it should do so. I don't believe in tugging my forelocks or genuflecting for anyone. No one ever won a battle from a crouching position.

Sean Og,

At least you didn't end up in a South Armagh ditch.

yes

Yes, good riddance RIR. Off to the scrap-heap with the other sectarian vermin of the Black and Tans, B specials, and UDR.

It really warms the cockles of the heart to finally see the naked sectarian nonsense of the wider Unionist political family starkly exposed as a result of one (long overdue) IRA statement.

Listen to these prats - ranting about demilitarisation, speaking rights in the Dail, the RIR etc. etc. etc. Christ only knows what sort of news reports these punters THINK they've been reading for the last number of years. For those of us who've actually been living in the North we know what everybody else has known for some time :- The only real threat to peace and stability here is loyalist violence in all it's odious, squalid, criminal, sectarian forms. Ten years of caricatured grotesques like Paisley et el spluttering and thundering about the bogeymen of the IRA seems to have rendered even semi-sensible punters like Empey utterly deluded in their priorities.

Have to say , as someone who has no time for the Provos and very little time for Adams, McGuinness et al., it's starting to seem that they were right about one thing all along - maybe the Unionists don't want a Fenian about the place after all............?????????

Bored,

When you label 3,100 mostly honourable men and women "sectarian vermin" because of the actions of a handful over the years you become one of your caricatured grotesques. There's a time for propaganda and a time for letting your adversary leave the field with honour. Grow up.

You're right about the Unionist response though.

"If the UUP can discomfit New Labour for dismembering the RIR then it should do so."

Watchman,

Why should it do so? The British Government are only keeping their word if the IRA keep theirs and completly Decommission all their weapons as laid down in the GFA.

Security:

(i) the reduction of the numbers and role of the Armed Forces deployed in Northern Ireland to levels compatible with a normal peaceful society;

(ii) the removal of security installations;

(iii) the removal of emergency powers in Northern Ireland; and

(iv) other measures appropriate to and compatible with a normal peaceful society.

See "Decommisioning" & "Security" sections in the GFA
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/today/good_friday/full_text.html

The DUP promised their electorate to smash the GFA and give no more concessions.once they became top party in the 2003 MLA elections. The DUP failed miserably. in keeping their promises to their electorate.

Watchman a normal peacetime society does not have three home battalions of part time soldiers to hepl the police.

Are you not happy Northern Ireland will for the first time in 35 years be returning to a normal peacetime society?

.

maybe the Unionists don't want a Fenian about the place after all............?????????

Certainly not one like you. Because your post only shows your own vindictive hatred and bigotry towards protestants & Unionists in Norn iron.

As a newbie and posting to a multi-directional thread I thought it easiest to post a comment I made to another thred tonight ...but i reckon it sums up the situation

Whilst I find it hard to appreciate the civil function that home-RIR have provided in NI all that can be said is that there is plenty of opportunity for proper soldiering in the British Army. IIRC most regiments are under-strength - if the love of all thing British is paramount to those supporting RIR then I'm sure OC's in RIR will be delighted to arrange transfers to front-line battalions on the duty cylcle for Iraq/Afganistan for foreseeable future.

Thought Tim Collins gave very good synopsis this a.m. on R4 Today. When decomissioning comes about - job-done - cease to exist - and anyway we have an armed and significantly larger police force (per capita) than rest of UK - for 30K p.a. they can do the coppering..

"if the love of all thing British is paramount to those supporting RIR then I'm sure OC's in RIR will be delighted to arrange transfers to front-line battalions on the duty cylcle for Iraq/Afganistan for foreseeable future."

Looking in, the three home Battalions are nearly all part time.soldiers These guys have other jobs. Most are older and dont want to serve away from home. In fact some are ex-service veterans who have already served overseas in the General armed forces.

They will all get settlement payments depending on the time served.

G2 - what you describe is seemingly a Unionist "Home Guard" a la Dad's Army who are clearly working for pin money to top up their other income/s. Per-chance how many might be inefficient/ineffective farmers etc who already rely on EC handouts etc.?

The country is struggling to cover the costs of health, social security, education, infrastrcture and dare I quote the new DUP "stipulation", the impending water rates. So why the heck should working Joe Public's taxes go to fund this small unrepresentative group of toy-town part-time soldiers when they are not wanted (to 50%) or needed (to 90%+)?

looking in, agreed.

I don't know if it's just me but I find living on a huge handout from the British government to be embarassing. I think we need to work to cut that back, both by getting rid of all this security and civil service wastage (only where possible of course) and boost our tax receipts by creating prosperity in NI. The DUP/UUP's plans for this seem to be rather thin on the ground.

Looking in,

You make a good point. But regardless of what vocations part time RIR soldiers work at when they are not on duty, the 3000 of them
would have been long out of an army job five years ago had the IRA kept their promise and decommisioned their arms.by 2000 as stated in the GFA.

I dont think the IRA were worried about how much of Joe Public's tax was used to pay out compensation claims to all those Norn Iron citizens whose property and loved ones were blown to pieces over a period of 30 years.

All

Well look, you can use the same argument about street-cleaners, it's not the nicest of jobs but then again if Joe & Josephine Public didn't toss litter on the roadsides then there's be little or no work for them to do. Sad in raw employment/unemployment terms of course but let's face facts - it's be a better more civilised place if there was no rubbish to pick up, ditto the need for or depeloyment of armed troops. Let's be glad (and/or hopeful) they never return instead of mourning their loss, perhaps it's a case of nothing becoming them quite like their passing. Let's move to a time and place where young men from here or anywhwere else don't have to join armies to secure a living wage, especially so in the name of the ruling class.

Chris - the Fair Employment Tribunal in Belfast have, over the last ten years, received umpteen applications pertaining to Religious/political discrimination in which the R.I.R. appear as Respondents. Go to the Bar Library, Law Society library or Law library at Queens and dig them out. Therein you will find staggering, objectively upheld descriptions of sectarianism on an organisational/institutional level. The RIR are the last in a clear lineage dating back to the Black and Tans and beyond. I say again, good riddance.

Labelling every single member in the Regiment's history as 'sectarian vermin' may have had a touch of the blunderbuss about it, however, and for that I apologise and withdraw.

G2 - my own vindictive hatred for Protestants in Norn Iron ? What - like me?

Christ, you silly, silly man. Helpful hint for future reference - just because somebody criticises politicians who happen to be Protestant doesn't mean that (a) they hate Protestants, or (b) they're Catholic etc. etc. et bloody cetera ad nauseum.

Really, you sound like a prime swallower of The Combover Kid and Dr. Evil's risible current line in hysterical paranoiac shite.

Keep up the good work.

"Really, you sound like a prime swallower of The Combover Kid and Dr. Evil's risible current line in hysterical paranoiac shite."

Bored.

Looking in the mirror I see. Even one of you own has to pull you up for your OTT remarks.

Your wonderful Republican way of dealing with discrimation among your own , is a hurley stick beating, a bullet in the kneecaps. or found 30 years later lying in an unmarked graves in Co Louth. like Ms McConville and a numbers of others.

What have you to say about this form of discrimation amongst your own Bored?
Or are you scared to speak out incase you become the next victim of these *VERMIN*

Looking i