“They always intensify and come to a head during the marching season.” Ian Stevenson, the deputy mayor of Ballymoney Borough Council

This 'freedom to assemble' tradition freely intensifies sectarianism

"Meanwhile, the PSNI have made safe an explosive device left in a hijacked car parked outside a GAA club in Lurgan."

"Maeve Connolly in the Irish News (courtesy of Nuzhound) says the attacks are reminiscent of the 2001 campaign against Catholics carried out by the UDA."

Should make clear that the 2 above paragraphs are completely unrelated as the incident in Lurgan was perpetrated by republicans.

Democratic Unionist Party councillor Roy Wilson said: “I condemn all attacks, loyalist or republican.”

Why can't he for f*ck sake just say that he condemns THESE attacks and ask people to forward info to the police?
Seems the marching season has still got its grip on him

Oh and it was the Army (you know the one we don't need anymore?) made the bomb in Lurgan safe.

Oh and the police were attacked by petrol bombs, bricks and bottles while attending the scene.

More here.

Have now removed unrelated paragraph, Beano. Thanks.

i doubt the psni will do enough,if unionist politicans wont do anything on the ground then the loyalists get a green light to carry on their campaign of ethnic cleansing.in any other civilised country this wouldn't happen.Now say i wanted to lower myself to the level of those scum who are perpetrating these cowardly attacks and attack the protestant minority in my area,i wouldnt be allowed to remain in my home for long.My own side would force my out of the village and rightly so-no one wants sectarian scum who prey on the vulnerable in their area,Although this happen a lot in loyalist areas

i was being sarcastic.and the work the courageous young presbyterians in b'mena did by cleaning up harrville chapel has been undone by another craven attack.loyalists dont even respect the good work done by their own community-sickening

reality check - you're a funny guy.

"Although this happen a lot in loyalist areas" despite your assertions about your own area, there same things happen in republican areas - it's not the exclusive preserve of the loyalist idiots.

"if unionist politicans wont do anything on the ground then the loyalists get a green light to carry on their campaign of ethnic cleansing"

What would you have them do? Unlike SF for the past 20 years, both the DUP and the UUP have condemned such indcidents.

George - I thought a simple rewording would do, but no matter. Why spoil an attack on one side by including mention that at the same time members of the other side were being just as depraved?

Beano:
"Oh and it was the Army (you know the one we don't need anymore?) made the bomb in Lurgan safe."

I didn't know they were doing away with the ENTIRE army - I though it was only those battalions who in their spare time had shown a penchant for making pipe bombs etc. that were being decommissioned.

But these attacks clearly show how the main problems of the north have been completely fudged with the entire "will they stay or will they go" story about the IRA over the last 12 years. The fact that the troubles sprung out of a deliberate discrimination of one section of society by the other and that this discrimination has never, ever been addressed by anyone - not even during the peace process - should have had alarm bells ringing somewhere a long time ago.

The root of the problems in the north has yet to be tackled. Thats where the work is desperately needed and nobody is even thinking about how to do that - to busy blathering on about the the Colombia 3, speaking rights in Dáil, Paisley's new coat - anything else, but not that.

Beano,
I thought, as you did, that it was unrelated to this particular thread.

Not saying it is not important and if we get a couple of more such incidents in the next 24 hours there is certainly room for a republican dissident thread.

The situation with regard to Loyalist terrorism is depressing.

The DUP and the (curiously silent) UUP need to pipe up and condemn these attacks. I seem to remember both parties being very vocal about how criminality in our society was unacceptable.

"Pipe up" - I think there may actually be a few people close to one of those two parties (or at least voting for them) who actually have been piping up lately - thats the problem.

Fair enough George, sorry if I sounded over zealous but you do get the impression some commenters would rather whitewash over violence from their own section of the community.

"The fact that the troubles sprung out of a deliberate discrimination of one section of society by the other and that this discrimination has never, ever been addressed by anyone"

Addressed how? There are now reams and reams of equality legislation on the statute book. Anyone learning about Northern Ireland's history is taught that discrimination existed, it's not being hidden or denied (not by anyone I know anyway).

Legislation is one thing beano, real life is something else.

For example I have a lot of neices and nephews, living across a wide variety of various "catholic" neighbourhoods in Belfast - but I don't think any of them have protestant friends. And I'm sure that fact cuts both ways - that the majority of young protestants have no or only 1 or two catholic friends. And its not even a conscious decison on their parts.
As far as I know none of these young people have or are planning to read the statute book so the equality legislation (seen by some posters as just another in a line of concessions anyway) means nowt.
You can legislate all you want, as long as people do not know each other, learn, play, drink, live with each other it won't make a difference. As long as prejudices are left unaddressed they can't change.
This needs to happen in a massive way and nobody is doing it.

Where o where is Mr Orde? Remember he who waited about 5 minutes to declare the Tohill kidnapping the work of the IRA. Why has he not held a press conference to name the loyalist groups behind these campaigns?

What of the IMC? Why does attacks on catholic homes, churches and businesses not warrant a 'special report?'

Could it be because neither grouping- PSNI or IMC- are remotely interested in addressing the reality that the overwhelming number of violent incidents occuring here are emanating from within unionism?

Personally, however, I reserve most ot my ire for the leaders of the protestant and unionist community- church, political and civic. Apart from the High Kirk group in Ballymena, there has been no high level commentary demanding unionist paramilitaries end this campaign of terror- where are Ken Newell (or his successor), Archbishop Eames or Messrs Empey and Paisley?

Were catholics to be responsible for attacking a protestant church five times in a four week period- not to mention torturing a small community in Ahoghill- there would be absolute apoplexy within the local media, with all strands of nationalism/ catholicism condemning forthrightly the violence.

Well said Irishman.

Circles
You're too touchy re. the SF victim and target thing, though a debate around just how democratic in the accepted sense of that word SF really are is always a live issue. No mystery around Protestant and Catholic children and adults in NI not knowing each other - it's a legacy of the troubles, nothing to do with equality.

Considering the numerous attacks over the years there have been on the Catholic church at Harryville - when are the local police going to think it worthwhile to mount round-the-clock covert surveillance there?
When they do, we might just see some of these scumbags being bounced into prison where they belong.

Now, now guys. Stop being so hard on the loyalists. Sure aren't they only reacting to incitement by the IRA? How dare they lay down arms! They'll be another ten years "only responding to republican violence".

Just like they were in 1966 when they let off the first car bomb, and murdered the first person of the troubles. No matter it was 3 years before the IRA was formed - they were responding to republican provocation.

BTW contrast the police operation to arrest the shoes of republicans thought to be involved in the NIB robbery and that observing the unionist terrorists evict people with impunity.

Plus ca change, eh?

Circles,

You are right this does need to happen and happen fast. The problem is all over the place, not just what we see reported daily.

I know an elderly protestant couple living in County Antrim who for the last three years have suffered continually sectarian abuse by a minority of their catholic neighbours. No petrol/fire bombs etc but grafetti and damage to their house, car and road outside. The Police have been pathetic as usual, the only reason they have stayed is the support and help they have received from their friends, who happen to be their catholic neighbours.

Jacko:
It appears you missed the context of my post completely. I wasn't talking about equality at all - I was talking more about ignorance and prejudice. If you had read my earlier post from 1.53 you would see what I was writing about, which is basically that the root of the problems in the north has yet to be tackled - and that that won't be achieved through equality legislation.

The SF victim and target and the idea of them being a political party is from another post - lets talk about it there, not here.

Ooop - idea of them being a democratic party I meant to say

Jacko, a legacy of the troubles. Are you serious? Are we now to believe that before the troubles the province was a great wee place where everyone knew everyone and got along grand?

It is just this attitude that prevents us, and i mean all of us, dealing with the problems that have afflicted here for decades, if not centuries.

circles
Fair enough - I tend to bounce in and out of here sometimes with long intervals between.

Irishman
Hadn't read yours before I posted earlier. You are dead right. The church leaders haven't even the excuse of worrying about losing votes (though that should never pass as an excuse) but still their silence is deafening. Even though I no longer take anything to do with religion I still find it deeply embarassing and more than a little worrying that these people aren't grabbing every reporter and microphone to condemn this. They should be queuing at Harryville and Lisburn today to show solidarity with their fellow Christians. Saying nothing should not be an option.

circles your 1.13 was all about how the discrimination of the past had not been addressed. I believe equality legislation has more or less eliminated discrimination these days, I never said it helped with segregation.

I'm not sure you've answered how we address discrimination, instead merely pointed to another problem, ie segregation (although admittedly the two certainly contribute to one another).

Jacko - have Harryville not invested in CCTV or can the police help with that?

"BTW contrast the police operation to arrest the shoes of republicans thought to be involved in the NIB robbery and that observing the unionist terrorists evict people with impunity."

By NIB are you referring to the Northern Bank robbery where the police have just as much as admitted defeat?

Re the evictions, the police were only there when the gangs were on the streets after the evictions had allegedly taken place (we all know they did but the police can't act on heresay and none of these evictees has made a complaint). The police can't arrest people for standing outside their houses (much as some of us might like them to) can they?

Beano:

"some commenters would rather whitewash over violence from their own section of the community"

hilarious to see you saying this. Your first couple of comments on this thread were pure whataboutery.

Your half hearted condemnation of these loyalist attacks was the usual flimsy insincere guff we hear from unionists every time this happens.

pot, kettle, black no?

beano-what do i want unionist politicans to do?how about ending the ethnic cleansing of catholics by controling some of the extreme evil on their side.the dup virtualy incited the recent attacks and made the excuse of a republican parade in a catholic area to justify these attacks.so if they put a stop to worrying about the now defunct IRA and seen their own side for what they really are-extreme bigots who would happily kill innocent catholics

DerryTerry
Are you seriously trying to suggest that before the troubles most Catholics and Protestants in NI didn't live beside each other and even socialise together?
I was raised then, so despite your notion of social history or, more likely, what you have been fed - I can tell you that's how most people here lived.
It was an ex-Provo bomber and fellow cityman of yours, John Paul O'Doherty, who put it best when he said: "We fought to remove the border and only succeeded in creating hundreds of borders. One in virtually every town and village."
Now, to try and extrapolate from what I said and say that I was claiming that just everything was hunky dory then, is rubbish again.
What's wrong, can't you cope with a unionist that doesn't fit the stereotype?

The clearest, most insightful and instructive way to look at all of this is very simply to pose the following question - "What would the reaction of Unionist political leaders, the police, army and N.I.O. be if the current onslaught of violence was being visited on the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist community?"

No prizes for guessing the answer..........

"We fought to remove the border and only succeeded in creating hundreds of borders. One in virtually every town and village."

Now Jacko - you're not honestly suggesting that this is all just a result of the troubles, and more specifically of the IRA, are you? Now that really is a bit extreme.
Of course we are more segregated now than ever, but there has always been segregation in the north - it was not a case of "happy campers, aren't we all great neighbours", but many of us were more sensible than we are today.

g

The attacks on the protestant couple you mention are equally despicable. If you have any input, you should try to encourage the couple to get this in to the media, or at least contact nationalist/ catholic leaders directly, so that they too be put to the test re condemning AND acting to stop such attacks.

I know, for instance, that when the WW2 War memorial was attacked with paint in Glenavy in June, Sinn Fein not only condemned it but contacted the council to ensure council officers removed the paint. The party rep. Paul Butler even let it be known in the media that he would remove the offensive paint himself.

Circles
I suspect you feel duty bound to come to the rescue of DerryTerry but surely you can't have missed me covering that point. But just in case, here it is again: "Now, to try and extrapolate from what I said and say that I was claiming that just everything was hunky dory then, is rubbish again."
As for any wider suggestion about who was primarily responsible, take it up with John Paul O'Doherty.
Or better still, ask yourself what drove the provos to continue butchering all round them for another 20-odd years after rejecting Sunnigdale -only to finally buy the package that was on offer then.

Panic stations on Planet-Provo: "We can't have a unionist appearing not to be sectarian."

"hilarious to see you saying this. Your first couple of comments on this thread were pure whataboutery. Your half hearted condemnation of these loyalist attacks was the usual flimsy insincere guff we hear from unionists every time this happens."
wtf - first of all I was correcting a misleading original post. Secondly I deliberately posted a link to a discussion of the incident in question on my own site so any discussion on that incident could go there and not take a thread on loyalist violence off on a tangent about republican violence - you call that glossing over?

For the record I think the so-called loyalists (a term I find as laughable and risable as the next man) carrying out these attacks are sick twisted individuals who need to be caught and locked up. I'm just so depressed at the regularity of incidents such as this the desire to tell everyone how much I despise the scumbags has worn off. If you check out any thread on EverythingUlster about loyalist paramilitaries I believe you'll see what I mean.

reality check (a name about as laughable as 'loyalists') - "the dup virtualy incited the recent attacks" I'm not denying this but do you have any quotes or sources for this? In all sincerity, I've obviously missed it.

Jacko:
I'm not going to play that game here. This thread is about loyalist violence against catholic communities. Similar violence is actually what brought a down and out IRA back into business in '69, when nobody had any time left for them. Now to try and turn this into an alternative history class based on a quote from John Paul O'Doherty and imply that all these borders were only caused by the IRA is nonsense.
Similarly, to try and bring the thread off the topic and get into discussing what we now have being better/worse than Sunningdale is nonsense.

I accept your point that you were not claiming that just everything was hunky dory pre-'69n.

The fact remains though that protestant bigots are attacking nationalist homes with increasing frequency, our society is more segregated than ever, we're over a decade into a peace process and bog all has been done to reverse this.

integrated education - opposed by Martin McGuinness as British social engineering.

recruitment campaigns to bring catholics into the police and security forces - they were singled out and shot as quislings

industrial development board to try and bring investment to undertrodden parts of belfast - blown up every other week it seemed

if you only want to talk about loyalism fine, but SF have done everything in their power to prevent liberal unionism or even straightforward british liberalism from "normalising" the situation over the past 37 years.

Circles
"The fact remains though that protestant bigots are attacking nationalist homes with increasing frequency, our society is more segregated than ever, we're over a decade into a peace process and bog all has been done to reverse this."

I agree entirely with the above and think I have made that clear both on this and other threads. I wasn't the one who took it off-thread in the first place. So, as for any games that are being played, don't look in this direction.

There isn't much chance of our society becoming less segregated while, on the political front, both sides spend their time scoring cheap points off the other and trying to wind the other community up so they can showboat for their own electorate. Neither of the two major parties (and very few of the smaller ones) actually gives a flying f**k what ordinary people are having to put up with as a result of all this, except on two fronts. For media coverage standing po-faced outside a constituent's house after it has been attacked and for exploitation at election time. Other than for selfish exploitation, they couldn't care less. In fact, in electoral terms, the more the merrier.

The silence of the majority (not all) of unionist politicians on this issue is nothing short of a disgrace. Catholics in Ahoghill have always been sitting ducks, but the attacks have increased over the last couple of years. A bit of leadership from the unionist community would be most welcome. We won't, however, hold our collective breaths when there are more urgent matters to attend to such as worrying about the arrival of 3 eejits from Colombia who can't go anywhere or do anything now anyway.

"carrying out these attacks are sick twisted individuals who need to be caught and locked up"

The problem is that these 'individuals' have a lot of support within Loyalist areas.

One only has to look at the 11th night bonfires to see the volume of support the uvf & uff have.

Having recently moved from an area of Belfast which would be regarded as strongly Loyalist, i would estimate that 80% of residents supported the uvf.

The silence of unionist politicians

On Ahoghill: "There is no justification whatsoever for sectarian attacks. People have a right to live in their homes, safe in the knowledge that they are secure and free from intimidation by mindless thugs."

On Harryville: "I am absolutely disgusted by this latest attack on a place of worship. This type of behaviour has no place in our society."

"Every person living in this country has the right to worship. There is nothing more sacred than expressing ones religious beliefs. I would urge those responsible to stop these attacks immediately and call on the police to ensure that the area is regularly patrolled."

Robert Coulter, Ulster Unionist MLA: North Antrim

Beano,

is it your considered opinion that the quantity and intensity of condemnations from unionist politicians in this matter match those of the Tohill abduction, McCartney murder and NIB robbery?

Robert - in a word, no. I believe the above comment from Robert Coulter was suitable 'intense' but I'll grant you I could find nothing on the DUP site - they seemed to be too busy slagging off the UUP and worrying about the Colombia 3 and the quality of tours of Londonderry.

I think the media have a part to play though. I don't think they bother even asking Unionists politicians half the time. As I said before, condemnations aren't as attention grabbing as attempts to excuse violence.

As I said earlier in this thread, people here rarely condemn their 'own side' as much as they salivate about condemning the 'other side'.

But on a more practical point, is it perhaps the case that a lot of those who one would want to be at the forefront of condemning these activities have been quiet on quite a lot lately - it being the peak political holiday month of August?

Some DUP condemnation (from Daily Ireland and Belfast Telegraph)

DUP mayor of Ballymena, Tommy Nicholl, condemned those behind the threats.

“I would appeal to these people who are going down this road, to stop and to think. This is not the way forward.”

Ballymena's DUP mayor Tommy Nicholl condemned the attack on the church.

"I have absolutely no time for this type of thing at all," he said.

"Regardless of where we hang our hats on a Sunday, we are entitled to the freedom of worship. We can never forward our cause by attacking places of worship.

"I oppose this attack utterly and would call on the perpetrators to cease. The ordinary unionist people of Harryville want to live side-by-side in peace with their Catholic neighbours."

Democratic Unionist Party councillor Roy Wilson said: “I condemn all attacks, loyalist or republican.”

On the attack on a SF councillor's house

Banbrdige DUP councillor Wilfred McFadden said he had no problem condemning the petrol bomb attack on Mr Ward’s home.
He said: “I don’t care what political affiliations Councillor Ward has, to attack his home with petrol bombs is wrong.
“There is a minority in Banbridge intent on causing trouble, something the good people of this town do not want.
“I condemn all violence.
“We want good community relations in Banbridge.
“Incidents like this only damage the good work the council has been doing.”

Condemnation's the easy part. It doesn't mean a thing without some effort on the part of the political representatives to do something about what's happening. What have any of them done to alleviate the misery of those living in fear in Ahoghill and elsewhere?

The Presbyterians in Ballymena have shown the way by helping their Catholic counterparts when their church was attacked. Time for the politicians to start earning their inflated salaries.

Daisy

1. There have been persistent claims there was no condemantion by Unionists. This has been shown to be false.

2. DUP political representatives were asked to and praised by the police for their role in maintaining calm during parade protests. Nationalists and republicans had asked for them to be proactive on this issue too - Sinn Fein's response today was to attack them for doing so. "We demand you act but when you do we will attack you".

3. "to do something" Have you got any suggestions? In terms of the political levers they have at their disposal what should they be doing?

The gesture by local Presbyterians was a positive one however it did not stop further attacks. While I am sure the victims of the attacks welcome assistance after the fact I am pretty sure they would rather not be victims in the first place.

Thwarting attacks and apprehension of those responsible is ultimately a crime and policing matter and politicians have no involvement in operational matters of the police.

if the perpetrators are caught and are revealed to be in the loyal orders or play in bands they should be removed but these organisations are breeding grounds for anti catholic feelings

I'm no fan of the LOs but don't they espouse civil and religious freedoms. Are you trying to say they are hypocrites?? Surely Not!! NOt all those nice lads in the sashes!! Say it isn't so!!

Under the rules of the OO conviction of a criminal offence leads to automatic expulsion.

Fair_Deal,
from the Belfast Telegraph, 22nd November, 2003 which seems to directly contradict what you just wrote:

Drumcree convictions a set-up: Saulters

The head of the Orange Order today described the conviction of three Orangemen for terrorism-related offences at Drumcree in 2002 as a "set-up".

Defending the Order's perceived lack of transparency over disciplinary measures against the trio, Grand Master Robert Saulters said it was up to individual lodges to investigate the matter but believed the group should not have faced scheduled offences.

Fifteen men pleaded guilty earlier this month to charges of riotous assembly resulting from disturbances at the event and received suspended prison sentences.

Portadown District LOL 1 has backed a campaign of support for the men.

"I still stand by my statements in relation to the men involved at Drumcree. Disciplinary measures are an internal matter for the organisation and the lodges in particular to deal with," Mr Saulters maintained.

"We do not hear what disciplinary action is taken whenever other organisations or churches are involved in an investigation. I think it was a set-up job and some of our members walked into it.

"There were people throwing objects at Ardoyne shops that same year and they were not charged with terrorism offences."

Images of men wearing Orange collarettes involved in riotous behaviour on Drumcree Hill in July 2002 damaged Orange Order attempts to distance themselves from agitators.

Making his first media interview for some years, the Grand Master said he supported the stance of Portadown Orangemen in continuing their high profile protest despite his failure to attend last July's showpiece confrontation with police.

"I think they should be given permission to finish off the 1998 parade, it has gone on for too long now and gets more difficult to resolve as time passes," he said.

"We are determined to stay there until there is progress and once there is a march there can be more talks."

fair_deal

1. that wasn't my claim.

2. Are you, like the police, implying that parade protests are the cause of the burning out of catholics? They are not the same thing (though I acknowledge that they may, in some instances, be linked). We're talking about attempted murder, not protest.

3. The DUP is forever telling us that they now speak for the majority of unionists and loyalists. They're the heros of the loyalist working class, don't you know! They should therefore be working on the ground towards a solution (the dogs in the street know who is behind this) and they should do so forthwith. We know that the DUP is not averse to contact with paramilitaries when it suits their own narrow agenda. Perhaps this time they could use such contacts in a positive way.

"Thwarting attacks and apprehension of those responsible is ultimately a crime and policing matter and politicians have no involvement in operational matters of the police."

Do you believe that the police will successfully catch and convict those responsible? I don't, going on past experience. If any politician can use his/her influence, then they should do so. It's what being a public representative in NI is all about.

Well said daisy,though i seriously doubt the dup care about the attempted murder of catholics

fair deal-dosen't one of the shankill butchers march in an orange lodge?old boyne heroes?isn't it a memorial for uvf men?

I would be surprised if the DUP ever claimed to speak for loyalists.

"Do you believe that the police will successfully catch and convict those responsible? "

With events this week I'm leaning more and more to the opinion that the PSNI can no longer catch a cold.

Beano, the fact that the DUP will, as you say, probably never claim to speak for loyalist is, I fear, sadly true - particular because it would appear that the majority of loyalist in all vote for this party, and not the PUP / UDP. If any party is the poltical wing of loyalism its the DUP.

Of course this has always been the approach of the Paisley Party anyway - to keep the dogs at arms length but be able to whistle them into action whenever required, then deny having anything to do with it.

fair_deal

'Democratic Unionist Party councillor Roy Wilson said: “I condemn all attacks, loyalist or republican.”'

This does not equate to a condemnation. Its pure whataboutery by stealth. He should say i condemn these attacks by fellow unionist on their catholic neighbours and my constituents. His inability to do so speaks volumes.

Beano@EU

'I would be surprised if the DUP ever claimed to speak for loyalists.'

Perhaps not but when 'loyalists' vote DUP, they are putting their faith in this party, which they feel will best deliver their agenda. DUP will never claim this obviously, but i could claim that loyalists have chosen DUP to speak for them.

Let's hope this situation will be the last of its kind

George

The rule exists its enforcement like the initiation of all disciplinary matters is the must be at the level of their lodge.

Daisy

"Are you, like the police, implying that parade protests are the cause of the burning out of catholics?"

I made no such linkage. The point about the protest was that when they do do "work on the ground" the response of nationalist representatives is to attack them.

Sectarian attacks take place. Nationalists call for all representatives to condemn the attacks. Unionist condemn it (before and after the calls for them to do so). Then Sinn Fein makes persistent false claims that they haven't.

They call for action from Unionist representatives. Unionist representatives get active on the ground at the parade protest. Sinn Fein attacks them for their presence there.

"They should therefore be working on the ground towards a solution (the dogs in the street know who is behind this) and they should do so forthwith"

What do you want them to do?
Generalities of "to do something" or "working on the ground" are easy outs - what can a politican practically do? Meeting paramilitaries - if the paramilitaries do not respond to a public condemnation and calls to stop why would it be any different in private?

Reality check

He has served his sentence. Ex-prisoners are allowed to re-integrate into society.

Cladyboy

If a Unionist condemns republican violence they are accused of being selective. When in a statement they are clear and condemn all violence WHATEVER its source its still not good enough?!? And the other clear condemnations by other Unionist representatives?

Unionists have condemned these attacks. Why do you and other nationalists find that simple fact so hard to accept? Are you so hell bent in maintaining a jaundiced view of Unionism that you try to cling to a false claim or interpretations of simple, clear statements that would leave a semiotics professor confused?

Interesting photo of Councillor Robin Sterling among the crowd of 500 loyalists with UDA flags in Ballymena last night.

What this nationalist thinks is that the dissident republicans and the DUP make a good match but nobody is electing the dissidents to speak for their community. You seem to support the DUP speaking for your community.

Sorry, should have mentioned that the councillor got his photo in the Irish News, which also mentions DUP assembly member Mervyn Storey leading the crowd in singing the British national anthem.

Beano wrote (some ways back)

"I think the media have a part to play though. I don't think they bother even asking Unionists politicians half the time."

Just a thought but could somebody tell me about the ratio of prod to taig in BBC NI and UTV, since I can't receive those channels here. I know it used to be something like 10 to 1. A rough estimate will do.

Reason I'm asking is that Beano's point is probably a valid one: why should media represented largely by unionists show their "own", i.e. loyalist terrorists, in a bad light?

Now for something almost entirely off topic but I can get no joy elsewhere. Does anyone here have any info on Buck Alec, supposedly a former terrorist. I write "terrorist" with dubious strokes of the keys because there is no consensus whatsoever on Google, He variously had a pet tiger, a toothless lion and even TWO lions, which he walked through the streets of Belfast.

The last website that I found him on was put up by the New Zealander Listener, who have this to say:

"Down these streets roamed legendary figures like Buck Alec, a Protestant ex-bare-knuckle boxer and proud owner of two full-grown lions that he would walk through his own and enemy territory. Or his Catholic counterpart, "Mad Dog" Johnny Adair, who's due for parole any minute and whose release truly worries the denizens of these battle-scarred streets."

When did Adair turn? Do his "friends" know? ;-)

"He has served his sentence. Ex-prisoners are allowed to re-integrate into society."

So its fine for a Shankill butcher, who is also an orangeman to carry the bannerette of the Old Boyne Island Heroes orange lodge,which honoures no fewer than five members of the uvf including fellow shankill butcher Bobby 'Basher' Bates.

Here's a full run down of the honourable brothers remembered and commemorated by the orange order.

Aubrey Reis was one of four UVF men blown up in 1975 when the bomb they were carrying in their car exploded prematurely; Noel ‘Nogi’ Shaw was ‘executed’ as a result of an internal UVF feud, also in 1975; John Bingham was a UVF commander shot dead at his home by the IRA in 1986; Brian Robinson was killed on ‘active service’ by undercover soldiers in 1989 and Robert ’Basher’ Bates was shot dead in a revenge attack in 1997. A sixth name, that of Colin Craig, gunned down by the INLA in 1994, was once listed on the bannerette but removed when it was thought that had been an informer.

Shankill butcher, Eddie McIlwaine seems to stay close to those who support him, the orange order and the uvf.

lib2016, have you got that photo somewhere ? Perhaps a scan of it would be useful. Someone needs to start documenting all of these instances where unionists are hanging around with loyalists, possibly in the form of a website or blog devoted to the topic. It's getting boring arguing with people who insist that they don't.

Denny boy :

"Just a thought but could somebody tell me about the ratio of prod to taig in BBC NI and UTV"

Why, are you a bigot ? Why is religion so important to you ?

Daisy, the police have on many occasions caught loyalist paramilitaries and sent them to jail. That figures, because a lot of loyalist paramilitaries devote a fair proportion of their existence to attacking the cops. Why would the police want to shield people who are trying to murder them ?

Damnitall! Wouldn't you know I've just thrown the paper out. It was quite a large photo on an inside page of today's Irish News.

It's no wonder Robin Sterling looked so comfortable in the photograph with masked uda men.

"The town hall had been booked by the Lisburn based Loyalist Cultural Society and advertised on the extreme 'loyalist voice' website, notorious for its promotion of the Orange Volunteers, a violent Protestant fundamentalist group with a history of sectarian attacks on Catholic families and churches.

Several coaches from Coleraine, Newry and Portadown swelled attendance at the Friday 28 September rally in Ballymena to around 500, the numbers rendering it a 'Grand Protestant Rally' in promise rather than practice. Included among the contingent from Portadown were loyalists who had marched with Johnny Adair in the UDA show of strength at Drumcree in July 2000.

Questioned about the presence of loyalist paramilitaries, one of the rally organisers said he would not discourage anyone who was a "true patriot". DUP Councillors Roy Gillespie and Robin Sterling were also in attendance but remained coy, describing their status as "only observers".

Less shy about their role in the night's proceedings were recent DUP candidates Stephen Moore, who chaired the rally, and Willie Frazer, a guest speaker. This was not an anti-Agreement rally, Moore told the meeting, because he and his colleagues did not recognise the Good Friday Agreement.

But if the gathering began with Orwellian doublethink it soon collapsed into a familiar diet of paranoia and racism. South Belfast based 'Grand Protestant Committee' spokesperson Ray Hamill gave what the Ballymena Guardian incongruously reported as "an historic account of the Protestant faith".

The most evil men in history, Hamill told an appreciative audience, "Hitler, Mussolini, Ribbentropp, were all Roman Catholics," and now Ulster, "the last bastion of Protestantism in Europe", was under threat from a party of government, the Labour Party, which had "disassociated itself from Britishness" and a Prime Minister in league with Rome. Tony Blair was following a Roman Catholic agenda, his wife was a Roman Catholic and his children were being educated as Catholics, said Hamill.

"Tony Blair got rid of Peter Mandelson" and "gave the job to John Reid, another Catholic," said Hamill. "Everything about the papacy and Tony Blair must be dismantled."

With a true fundamentalist's sense of betrayal, Hamill continued: "Tony Blair stood with Muslims yesterday. They are not Christians and years ago they murdered thousands of Britons in Afghanistan."

"In the future no one will be safe from the wrath of the Grand Protestant Committee," warned leading Orangeman Mark Harbinson, a prominent supporter of the Drumcree standoff who has described the protest as "Ulster's Alamo".

Harbinson is a member of the Stoneyford Orange Lodge, where several years ago a loyalist death list containing the names and personal details of hundreds of nationalists was discovered. At the time Harbinson dismissed the raid on the Orange Lodge as a ploy to discredit him.

This rally was only the first in a long-term strategy of defiance, warned Harbinson, which will reflect a growing sense of anger within the Protestant community. The organisers urged those attending to sign a pledge based on Carson's anti-Home Rule Covenant of 1912.

These signatures will bolster plans for the mass mobilisation of the Protestant people for even more demonstrations which are being planned in the run up to next year's marching season, the crowd was told.

"It is every democrat's right to raise arms in defence of democracy. Never let it be said otherwise," said Harbinson. But the Orangeman's commitment to the principles of democracy proved to be mere rhetoric. Harbinson declared that even if 99.9% of the people voted for a united Ireland, he would still oppose it.

Commenting on recent events in the USA, Harbinson continued: "George Bush said countries that harbour terrorists wouldn't be spared. If that's the case, I'll be waiting for the B52 bombers to flatten Dublin."

Heard that Little Doc was also at the Ballymena rally last night but I haven't seen definite confirmation yet.

What's more interesting is the frontpage of tonight's Belfast Telegragh where the main story is the news that Paisley Senior is 'unavailable for comment' about the attacks on his Catholic constituents.

When Tony O'Reilly authorises a story like that then the heavyweights are taking a hand. The DUP may be looking at a difficult future!

I posted:

""Just a thought but could somebody tell me about the ratio of prod to taig in BBC NI and UTV"

Comrade Stalin replied:

"Why, are you a bigot ? Why is religion so important to you ?"

Er, read the rest of my post. I mentioned that in my recollection the ratio at the BBC was 10 to 1. This was of course better than not so very long ago when the Beeb in NI employed no taigs at all.

This makes them, in my book, bigots to whom religion was so important. Why does my asking put me in the same boat?

Tra g

Quite an A List of DUP men attended that now infamously Grand Rally in Ballymena. The Stephen Moore mentioned was recently elected councillor in Dunmurry, while the Harbinson fella is a renowned DUP supporter (check his Orange Volunteers website, where he operates under the name Elvis.)

Harbinson has been quite active recently. He was the named organiser of a parade seeking to march into 2 mixed estates in Stoneyford, and during the commotion over that one met with Jeffrey Donaldson at the Lisburn Council offices.

Two weeks later, two catholic families had their houses and cars attacked in the village, with another attacked in a similar manner a further week later.

Jeffrey's condemnation - some of which has been alluded to above- could have been of a fight between two martians, condemning violence in the vaguest possible manner and refuting well-found allegations of an orchestrated campaign to remove the village of its catholic population. In time honoured DUP manner, he blamed republicans for stoking up tensions on the village- as even Coulter disappointingly did to excuse the shameful North Antrim loyalist terror campaign.

In Stephen Moore's own constituency, the newly-built housing development, Redwoods, witnessed a sectarian attack 'gone wrong' last week when windows in a newly-occupied home thought to be catholic were smashed. Subsequently, loyalist graffiti threatening catholics taking up ownership of their new properties has been scrawled at the entrance to the development- which has had loyalist flags erected at the entrance to the development from before a brick was even laid as a clear warning to taigs.

Needless to say, Mr. Moore has followed party leader Papa Doc in pleading the fifth amendment over this one.

Fair_Deal has raised a number of important points on this thread about unionist condemnations of loyalist violence. To be fair, he has a point, certainly regarding Rev. Coulter's statements recently- doubtless to be welcomed but rather late in the day it must be said.

What Fair_deal is not acknowledging is that there is not only a general reluctance within unionist political circles to condemn loyalist behaviour, but that such condemnation when it comes is either vague- as in Donaldson's 'all violence' utterances- or more of a 'slap in the wrist' type of pronouncements. Cue usage of terms like 'senseless', 'idiots' or phrases like 'playing into the hands of republican trerrorists.'

The reason that this is important is that nationalists- and undoubtedly loyalists- pick up on the disctinctions, and in the case of the former, determine that the empirical evidence points to a desire within unionism to retain the 'services' of loyalist paramilitary outfits for the political objective of keeping the taigs in their place.

Hence Paisley Og whipping the troops into a frenzy by promising 'violence' in Ballymena; and Mervyn Storey following Paisley Jnr's lead in organising a rally of masked UDA/UVF men which attacked catholic owned houses and cars. And of course, hence Papa Doc refusing to condemn the acts of those he has so often led up the hill.

Off the top of my head, only the Alliance Party and SDLP have a clear conscience where clear, consistent condemnation of violence is concerned.

Odd, then, that those from other parties or supporters of them, especially the current two largest ones, take such exception to the 'other side' for not being vociferous enough when their 'own side' is being vitimised.

tra g:

source for the quote?

So why if all of the above is true do people still vote DUP? Have they been fooled into thinking the DUP is not a hard line Anti-Catholic organisation who suffer from paranoia and see Catholic conspiracy theories everywhere? Of are the all of these people fully aware of that and worse still totally supportive of it?

"Tony Blair was following a Roman Catholic agenda"

"Tony Blair stood with Muslims yesterday. They are not Christians..." (inciteful)

"Ulster's Alamo". (hilarious)

It's good to see that those in promenint positions are looking ahead to the future. Northern Irelands future is safe in their hands. I assume that when the muslims start moving next door due to economic migration that they'll put on a 'warm' Ulster welcome for them too.

"What do you want them to do?
Generalities of "to do something" or "working on the ground" are easy outs - what can a politican practically do? Meeting paramilitaries - if the paramilitaries do not respond to a public condemnation and calls to stop why would it be any different in private?"

fair_deal - off the top of my head, they could visit the catholics who are under attack to show their support. They could stand with them as they enter their churches which are under attack (as the mayor of Ballymena did during the Harryville protests a few years ago). They could even organise a rally to condemn these attacks. They could encourage their followers to stand by their catholic neighbours and stand up to the intimidators. They are in the majority in the area; they should take the lead. They are not doing so.

Denny Boy

"Just a thought but could somebody tell me about the ratio of prod to taig in BBC NI and UTV, since I can't receive those channels here. I know it used to be something like 10 to 1. A rough estimate will do."

Sorry to burst your sectarian perception bubble but the breakdown of the staff at the BBC and UTV is:

British Broadcasting Corporation
P[55.0%] RC[45.0%]
Ulster Television PLC
P [61.7%] RC [38.3%]
(Source EC Monitoring Report No.14 2004)

I personally always thought this stat was quite ironic:
Equality Commission for Northern Ireland
P [43.7%] RC [56.3%]
(The body that advises on balanced workfroces can't manage one itself.).

apologies the monitoring report was 2003

Daisy

Thanks for those. A reasonable menu of suggestions of what they could do, however, most of it is a reinforcement of the condemnation. A rally to condemn it on top of statements etc. It certainly doesn't hurt to reinforce but don't know how much practical difference it makes to stopping the campaign. The Mayor stood with them, the OO leadership stood with them and the protest at Harryville continued.

I know in North Belfast the DUP usually visits the vicitms of sectarian attacks (this tends to be when the victims live in mixed or predominately protestant areas e.g the recent attacks in Abbeydale). I don't know what the practice is elsewhere.

Thanks for the breakdown, fair_deal. I don't know why you and the comrade seem to think that I'M the sectarian one. I'm simply remembering Denis Tuohy's memoir and his landing a job as the first taig employed by the BBC in "any meaningful role".

To quote a review in the Indie:

Ulster did not employ Catholics. At least it didn't employ them in any meaningful role - there were Catholics working in the canteen and sweeping the floor, but otherwise there was a strict policy of no taigs.

'This was 1960, the year Jack Kennedy was elected President of the United States and civil rights and racial equality were sweeping through the world. Northern Ireland however remained steeped in its own prejudices, the ruling Protestant elite hanging on to its privileges with a fierceness which would lead directly to the blood on the streets just a few years later. There was even a little joke about it at the time, much enjoyed by Catholics and Protestants: An agitated young man staggers into a pub near the BBC building. "I've j-j-just b-b-been for an i-i-interview as an announcer at the B-B-BBC." Did he get it, asks the barman. "N-no chance. I'm a f-f-frigging C-Catholic."'

My "perception" of present-day BBC NI (and I admit I don't hear or see it often) is one where prod presenters and others in key positions greatly outnumber taigs. Has Talkback or any other meaningful show ever been presented by a Catholic? I'm just asking...

That should of course have read: "... the BBC in Ulster did not employ Catholics."

Come to think of it, "Ulster did not employ Catholics" is not too far from the truth :(

For a while I was honestly expecting that the DUP would stand up and truly condemn these attacks. OK maybe I was naive to think that - maybe I was too ready to think that perhaps there had been some kind of progress going on there. But to read that report of the Lunatics Meeting was like stepping back in time. Its a frightening thought that such blatant unashamed bogotry exists today and can be so openly, even proudly, displayed. There really are people who would gladly turn back the clock - gladly discriminate on the grounds that they are convinced their way of life is superior.

This is unbelievable. Whats the use in even negotiating when the party is supported by the orange KKK? Republicans may have moved on, but the bible thumpers are still in the middle ages.

I think you're a bit off with the perception. We often chose to see certain things to reinforce our perceptions. I have one friend who continually rails about the number of southern accents among TV reporters these days as an example of anti-Unionist bias. He then goes on about how they cancelled the Twelfth programme one year (despite it being one of the top programmes etc) followed by the amount of GAA on it etc etc.

The playwright Gary Mitchell has persistently complained about the difficulties he faced coming from a working class loyalist background with the art establishment and the BBC in Northern Ireland.

If I remember correctly the present controller of the BBC is from a Catholic and nationalist background so whatever Tuohy claimed it is very different today. It has extensive coverage of the GAA and its own Irish language unit producing radio and television programmes. The BBC's 'stock' historian is Eamon Pheonix.

As for Talkback being 'meaningful' UUGGHHH!! Has Seamus McKee not fronted the morning news programme for a long time?

Fair_deal

"Has Seamus McKee not fronted the morning news programme for a long time?"

Do continue with your list of taig presenters.

BTW are Radio Ulster still training their presenters on air? But maybe that's simply my perception ;-)

Denny

Do continue with your list of taig presenters

1. I don't know any other presenters besides Seamus McKee and David Dunseith because I don't listen to Radio Ulster, listen to Radio 1 and 4 (showing my bias to banal British culture). I know about those two because I've been interviewed by them as for the controller and Eamon Pheonix I know them.
2. I do not have an encyclopaedic knowledge of people's perceived or actual religion.
3. Why do you use that horrible term 'taig' so much?

"Why do you use that horrible term 'taig' so much?"

Because 4-letter words such as "prod" and "taig" are easier to type than sesquipedalian ones ;-)

Posted-'integrated education - opposed by Martin McGuinness as British social engineering.'

Untrue. And as a bit of research will show, as Minister of Education, Martin allocated a huge portion of the Education budget to integrated schools. I do believe it was the largest allocation to them at the time.
For this, he was condemned by Mon. Faul, and various DUP politicians.

We've been here before on another thread folks. BBC 'Ulster' is hopelessly sectarian. Note how it's presenters are permitted to regularly use words such as 'ulster' or 'province' to describe Northern Ireland but are banned from using the equally legitimate descriptions of 'the North' or 'the six counties'.

Bored, you are obviously very bored!

The announcers, etc, on BBC NI NEVER refer to NI as "Ulster", other than reference to BBC Radio Ulster - the station's name.

The term "six counties" is clearly a perjorative one and would often be meaningless out of context, same as "North", though I have often heard NI referred to as "North" when used in context with "the South".

Does all this matter a great deal anyway?

All this talk about whether UTV/BBC NI presenters are Catholics, Protestants or whatever. So what? Do they do a reasonable job?

Wouldn't it be nice, however, to see a few presneters - as long as they are good at the job - who didn't have local voices and white skin?

Honestly, sectarianism at times looks like it's genetic.

Denny boy, are you saying that if a group of people are overwhelmingly Protestant then they must be bigoted or biased ? If not, then what exactly are you saying ?

GavBelfast - "The announcers, etc, on BBC NI NEVER refer to NI as "Ulster", other than reference to BBC Radio Ulster - the station's name."

Hhhhmmm - not sure that you've been listening to the same station as me. Happens regularly - just listen to Wendy Austin, Conor Bradford, George Jones or any of the weather reporters for example.

The term "six counties" is clearly a perjorative one and would often be meaningless out of context, same as "North", though I have often heard NI referred to as "North" when used in context with "the South".

Oh right, and the term 'province' isn't prejorative or meaningless out of context ?

"Does all this matter a great deal anyway?"

It does to me and thousands like me. This is all about Northern protestants/unionists/loyalists realising that catholics/nationalists/republicans are no longer going to sit at the back of the metaphorical bus.

It is no longer acceptable for a local radio station (which supposedly represents (as a public broadcaster) the licence fee payers of the entire community) to use a form of nomenclature which is only used by one section of the community to describe the state and to ban the use of a form of nomenclature which is used by another section of the community to describe that state.

I have no problem with the BBC either allowing their presenters to use whatever term they feel comfortable with in describing the state or in insisting that the state is referred to by its actual title. Adopting the geo-political nuances of one community over another is sectarian - pure and simple.

How many Catholic/Nationalist/Repubilcans do you know who refer to 'Northern Ireland' as 'Ulster' or 'the province'???

Do all loyalists settle their differences with a gun.

I see the scumbags in Lurgan are at it now

a loyalist rioter in the uvf woodvale was arrested and he came from the lower shankill, uda territory. what was he rioting for? is he confused? the answer is yes, he and all loyalists are confused. they are not in this mentally restricted state in response to current political influence, but because a collective mental illness has rooted itself into the loyalist identity. As with an individual who has an insecure identity, a weak ego, when feeling threat, will resort to aggression, so the loyalist population reacts with weak strength in aggressive and violent expression

of their fear.

Bored, honestly, it is BBC NI policy NOT to refer to Northern Ireland as "Ulster", presenters, reporters, etc just don't do it when describing this part of the world. Same with Ulster Television' ;-)

Oddly enough, RTE weather presenters will generally refer to "Ulster" at least once or twice on a typical forecast. Does that bother you?

I honestly can't think of anyone I know who calls Northern Ireland anything much other than Northern Ireland when talking about it. Or maybe "the North" in the right context, or just "here" or "this place". Never "Six Counties" or "Ulster", for that would be making a point and, frankly, just sound silly and attention seeking. I don't move in political circles or where people are grand-standing, maybe you feel differently.

I really don't see why you are bothered about this, it seems to be all perception or just imagination.

Are you looking to be offended by something that just isn't there?

I've said enough - plenty of genuinely sectarian behaviour, attitudes and violence about without me spending any more time on this .

FD,

"The Mayor stood with them, the OO leadership stood with them and the protest at Harryville continued"

"Protest" is not a word I would use.
More like blatant sectarian intimidation.

posted'but because a collective mental illness has rooted itself into the loyalist identity. As with an individual who has an insecure identity, a weak ego, when feeling threat, will resort to aggression, so the loyalist population reacts with weak strength in aggressive and violent expression'

I would agree there is a certain amount of truth to this. However, loyalists have no political representation. They have been left to flounder out of control by DUP and UUP politicans who only appear in their areas to whip them up to the sectarian bile we now see emerging from their quarters, or to get their vote. Any actual 'Loyalist' leadership they do have is so deeply immersed in the drug and crime culture that seems to define Loyalism these days.
I feel a certain amount of sympathy for these people. Loyalists have a lot to offer in the solution of this conflict. If they could only recognise and understand that they have been used as fuel at the wont of established Unionism and that they and their young children as simply drug customers for their 'Loyalist' leadership. Until they realise this, expect more of the same.

If there is so much support for these loyalist terrorists in "their own areas" why is this not reflected in the amount of elected representatives they return.

But then when you look at recent goings on maybe the DUP are closer to these hoodlums than they would have us believe.

The murder of the young lad in North Belfast seems to have had a sectarian motive and yet again another family is suffering at the hands of loyalist murderers

This thread has has a lot of 'pot calling the kettle black' running through it.

Denny Boy's query about the proportion of Catholics employed in prominent positions in the media is entirely appropriate, given 1) a long history of exclusion and discrimination from those in powerful positions throughout this society; 2) the consensus, first raised by beano, that the media has gone conspicuously soft on loyalist violence. (And in my view, not just this past several weeks, but throughout the so-called 'peace process')

Stalin suggests that to even raise the question of nationalist representation/presence makes one a bigot. That is classic victim-blaming, rampant in a society where those who oversaw discrimination and bigotry over centuries have the cheek to assert their democratic credentials, etc. and are allowed to get away with it over and over again by the media.

The media here is flagrantly biased, and therefore a very big part of the problem. I don't think that it is down to a mere imbalance in the composition of the media workforce, though I wouldn't ignore that either. There is an ethos in place that encourages the unrelenting focus on the McCartney incident and ignores daily sectarian harrassment emanating from unionism/loyalism. Bored's point that 'Adopting the geo-political nuances of one community over another is sectarian - pure and simple' is absolutely correct, and part of the GFA should have involved an overhaul of the way assumptions about British identity are embedded in tax-funded media. Some of you will remember the row a few years back over requirements to wear a poppy, etc.

Kitty wrote : "I would agree there is a certain amount of truth to this. However, loyalists have no political representation."

Kitty, this is rubbish that is being repeated by the British government - it is totally untrue. Loyalists vote for the DUP and UUP. They have plenty of political representation, and that's why we need to start holding the two main parties accountable for the actions of loyalist paramilitaries.

spartacus, I don't see anything in your contribution that contradicts my opinion. The problem that I saw earlier in the thread is "I think the BBC are biased. I wonder if that's because there are too many Prods working there". What's a person supposed to do other than conclude bigotry ? In this case what makes it more amusing (in a sad way_ is that the opinion was found to be factually wrong, and that the BBC has a fairly even split of employees. Now we're getting into ridulous nonsense about words referring to NI which have supposedly been "banned"; it seems that in this country some people are happy to make a judgement on your entire worldview based on what phrase you use or do not use to describe the country. It's sad and messed up.

Your general attitude to the problems here are badly misguided. There is no denying that major discrimination occurred in the past, but to take the view that an organization must be bigoted or biased due to the fact that there is too many of one or another "religion" within it is itself a continuation of the sectarian theme that led to the problem in the first place. It's the same thing that we're seeing in the police, people claiming that they cannot support it because there are too many Prods in it, and foolishly believing that stuffing it with more taigs will make it a decent and well-rounded force.

Comrade Stalin

"Now we're getting into ridulous nonsense about words referring to NI which have supposedly been "banned"; it seems that in this country some people are happy to make a judgement on your entire worldview based on what phrase you use or do not use to describe the country. It's sad and messed up."

Oh, right.

Firstly - the phrases 'six counties' and 'the north' ARE banned on BBC 'Ulster' - I know because (a) I have never heard a presenter use the phrase and (more definitively) (b) a friend who works at senior production level in the BBC has confirmed to me that such a policy exists.

Secondly, "ridiculous nonsense" - hhhhmmmm, let's just put the boot on the other foot for a second. Let's pretend that you, as a tax payer were compelled to finance a supposedly 'national' radio station which insisted on its presenters using the descriptive terms 'the north' and 'the six counties' to describe Northern Ireland and banned its staff from referring to the state as 'Ulster' or 'the province'.

Would you still feel as disinterested and apathetic?

Pull the other one.........

Comrade Stalin

"Now we're getting into ridulous nonsense about words referring to NI which have supposedly been "banned"; it seems that in this country some people are happy to make a judgement on your entire worldview based on what phrase you use or do not use to describe the country. It's sad and messed up."

Oh, right.

Firstly - the phrases 'six counties' and 'the north' ARE banned on BBC 'Ulster' - I know because (a) I have never heard a presenter use the phrase and (more definitively) (b) a friend who works at senior production level in the BBC has confirmed to me that such a policy exists.

Secondly, "ridiculous nonsense" - hhhhmmmm, let's just put the boot on the other foot for a second. Let's pretend that you, as a tax payer were compelled to finance a supposedly 'national' radio station which insisted on its presenters using the descriptive terms 'the north' and 'the six counties' to describe Northern Ireland and banned its staff from referring to the state as 'Ulster' or 'the province'.

Would you still feel as disinterested and apathetic?

Pull the other one.........

Stalin:

I explicitly rejected the argument that adding some taigs to the mix would make the media perfect, or even accepatble, when I wrote the following: "The media here is flagrantly biased, and therefore a very big part of the problem. I don't think that it is down to a mere imbalance in the composition of the media workforce, though I wouldn't ignore that either." Incidentally I've never spoken to anyone who thinks that adding taigs to the mix in the PSNI will put things right. I think these hypotheticals are figments of a dull or purposely inactive imagination.

In theory, one could sustain a flagrantly anti-nationalist news service even on the basis of a majority Catholic workforce. But lets not deal with abstractions just yet. The composition of the workforce does matter, in lots of ways, as does the ethos/politics/assumptions that shape coverage. I would like to see a breakdown of personnel figures at all levels, from adminstration to the cleaning staff. I would also like to see a breakdown of the political affiliations of those working the news. What do you think we would turn up?

You write that 'To take the view that an organization must be bigoted or biased due to the fact that there is too many of one or another "religion" within it is itself a continuation of the sectarian theme that led to the problem in the first place."

First, that is a simplification of the point I argued, and of the points made by those to whom you responded earlier. Secondly, it reeks of victim-blaming: those who inquire about the persistence of discrimination are just as guilty of sectarianism as those who perpetrated it in the past. Rubbish.

"It seems that in this country some people are happy to make a judgement on your entire worldview based on what phrase you use or do not use to describe the country." Is it your asertion that BBC, UTV, etc, are indifferent about the words which their on-air personnel use to describe 'this country'? If not, why not? Does it lean one way or the other? If so, why?

Comrade Stalin

"Now we're getting into ridulous nonsense about words referring to NI which have supposedly been "banned"; it seems that in this country some people are happy to make a judgement on your entire worldview based on what phrase you use or do not use to describe the country. It's sad and messed up."

Oh, right.

Firstly - the phrases 'six counties' and 'the north' ARE banned on BBC 'Ulster' - I know because (a) I have never heard a presenter use the phrase and (more definitively) (b) a friend who works at senior production level in the BBC has confirmed to me that such a policy exists.

Secondly, "ridiculous nonsense" - hhhhmmmm, let's just put the boot on the other foot for a second. Let's pretend that you, as a tax payer were compelled to finance a supposedly 'national' radio station which insisted on its presenters using the descriptive terms 'the north' and 'the six counties' to describe Northern Ireland and banned its staff from referring to the state as 'Ulster' or 'the province'.

Would you still feel as disinterested and apathetic?

Pull the other one.........

This argument has been done before. The terms "6 counties" and "the north" are politically loaded and obviously so (particularly the former). The BBC usually tries to be proper and the terms used are Northern Ireland or occasionally the province (referring to Northern Ireland as a province of the United Kingdom, although I'm not sure if this is correct). The clear advantage of the term Northern Ireland (over 'the north') is that it is unambiguous (and don't start the rubbish about the north of Co. Donegall, NI is the internationally recognised legal name, rightly or wrongly).

Anyway I'm sure that won't stop a good MOPE.

Now children, what's really ridiculous is this:
"2) the consensus, first raised by beano, that the media has gone conspicuously soft on loyalist violence."
What I said was
"I think the media have a part to play though. I don't think they bother even asking Unionists politicians half the time."
I'm not sure how that relates to what you CLAIM i said at all. I was simply pointing out that Unionist politicians maybe aren't given enough airtime to condemn the activities because condemnation is boring as far as news goes. And it was only a theory.
Where the hell did you read any kind of consensus

I mean seriously would some of you listen to yourselves? This is really getting embarrassing!

"This argument has been done (sic) before. The terms "6 counties" and "the north" are politically loaded and obviously so (particularly the former). The BBC usually tries to be proper and the terms used are Northern Ireland or occasionally the province (referring to Northern Ireland as a province of the United Kingdom, although I'm not sure if this is correct)."

So the terms 'province' and 'ulster' AREN'T politically loaded - for fuck's sake open your eyes.

This is a perfectly legitimate point. Of course it's easy for those of a unionist persuasion to decry the whole argument as being childish, trifling and petty - the broadcaster has decided to use THEIR nomenclature as its terminology of choice.

All I'm saying is - TRY and imagine if the shoe was on the other foot. I suspect your dismissive attitude would change.

"I was simply pointing out that Unionist politicians maybe aren't given enough airtime to condemn the activities because condemnation is boring as far as news goes. "

Yes but when it comes to condemning republicans it's a different story

Anoushka?

I stayed in 'Blake's' once - it was excellent.

Tired of the international hotel design game? Moved on to Irish politics?

beano: what a laughable argument. "the North" is politically loaded but "the province" is somehow neutral. Do you have the faintest notion of how ridiculous you sound? All of this is contested terminology, but you think it acceptable, even unquestionable, that a taxpayer supported news service should make exclusive use of the terminology acceptable to one section of the community and not the other.

Perhaps you do not agree, but my point would be that this telling but relatively minor transgression manifests itself in much more serious problems with biased coverage when it comes to loyalist violence. You raise the pathetic welp that perhaps the media needs to ask more unionist politicians for their comments on these incidents. Really? If they spoke at all, their weasel words would be entirely predictable. That radical republican propaganda sheet the Belfast Telegraph tried late last week to get a comment on the Ballymena pestilence from Paisley Sr. but was told by a subordinate that as he was away on holiday the MP for the area would be making no comment. His party colleagues were apparently leading the foray into police lines at Fisherwick. The only source of hope for a stand against sectarianism these days seems to come from a handful of committed church people who take their doctrine seriously, and I commend them for their efforts. But their acts only expose how competely rotten the entire edifice of unionist politics is in this part of the world.

spartacus:what a laughable argument. "the North" is politically loaded but "the province" is somehow neutral. Do you have the faintest notion of how ridiculous you sound?


If nationalists don't think that Northern Ireland is run as a province of the UK, why do so many nationalist commentators and republican politicians refer to the Secretary of State as a 'proconsul' - i.e. - the governor of a province!

Sorry for putting up a post that is actually on topic

Daisy

Looks like the DUP have visited the victims as you suggested(source BBC NI website)

The DUP's Ian Paisley jnr has said he has met Catholic families in Ahoghill issued fire blankets last week because of the threat of loyalist attacks.
Speaking on BBC NI's Inside Politics Mr Paisley jnr said he was forced to reveal the contacts because of criticism of his party over the issue.
He said the families involved had not wanted the meetings reported.
Two Catholic-owned homes in the County Antrim village have been attacked by petrol bombers in recent weeks.
Police issued fire-resistant blankets and smoke alarms to families due to fears of more attacks.

Patrols have also been stepped up in the village.

Mr Paisley jnr, a North Antrim assembly member, said he was disgusted by the level of attacks against his father, DUP leader and North Antrim MP Ian Paisley, over the situation in Ahoghill.
On Friday, the SDLP's Sean Farren said Mr Paisley had a duty to make a stand and that didn't just mean issuing words of condemnation.
But Mr Paisley jnr said that even before the police took action he had already met the families on behalf of the DUP.
He said as a result of his intervention police had taken additional action.
He also said he has tried to find out who is behind the attacks and threats and to see if they could be arrested on other charges.

Speaking on BBC NI's Inside Politics Mr Paisley jnr said he was forced to reveal the contacts because of criticism of his party over the issue.
He said the families involved had not wanted the meetings reported.

...and by the way, Gerry Adams has never been a member of the IRA.

I'm sorry, fair_deal, I accept that you have made your condemnation of the attacks plain, but why should anyone believe this story?

Did the families also request Ian Jr to refuse to make any mention or condemnation of the attacks up to now?

Ian Jr, although an MLA for the area, had nothing to say about the attacks on Catholics in his constituency until now. To judge by his website, however, he had no shortage of energy to issue an endless series of statements about the republican parade in Ballymena last week. When he was asked on BBC Newsnight about attacks on Catholics in Ballymena on the night of the IRA statement, he stonewalled, indulging in a piece of whataboutery about an attack on an Orange Hall in Armoy, but never actually condemning the attacks.

This strikes me as being nothing more than an attempt to take the heat off Daddy.

'Kitty, this is rubbish that is being repeated by the British government - it is totally untrue. Loyalists vote for the DUP and UUP. They have plenty of political representation, and that's why we need to start holding the two main parties accountable for the actions of loyalist paramilitaries. '

Voting for a party does not mean you actually have political representation, Stalin. Loyalists are not represented politically-their interests are not being represented in any forum.
Take one sad statistic from the Loyalist Shankill area. 3% of children in the area pass the 11+. Now if you can show me where a UUP or UUP representative has seriously tried to do something about an issue such as this, then I would be happy to reconsider. The only person who I am aware of that did address this was Davy Erwine.
But your blog is a good one, thought provoking.

'Mr Paisley jnr, a North Antrim assembly member, said he was disgusted by the level of attacks against his father, DUP leader and North Antrim MP Ian Paisley, over the situation in Ahoghill.'

I would suggest that this is the reason for these 'phantom' visits that Baby Doc has created.

kitty, if the loyalists feel they are poorly represented by the DUP and UUP then why do they keep voting for them ? Why should the rest of us take responsibility if they do not want to elect representatives who will address the serious problems in their neighbourhoods ? I do not believe in a double mandate or double representation.

The argument being presented here that unionists would dearly love to condemn paramilitarism, but cannot seem to find the time, is complete rubbish. Often unionists are explicitly asked to condemn violence and in response they will either avoid the question or - worse - explicitly refuse to issue a condemnation. For example, regarding the incidents in Ahoghill a unionist representative refused to comment on the petrol bombings until he was in possession of all the facts (what facts need someone possess in order to condemn petrol bombings I wonder?).

I also remember way back in the mid 1990s when a group of nurses were intimidated out of houses on the Donegall Road following the circulation of a written letter threatening "fenian scum" in the area. Martyn Smyth was asked to condemn it, and he said quite directly that he would not condemn the leaflet and that it was "understandable" that people would feel that way in the face of republican aggression elsewhere. Harold Gracey is memorable for refusing to condemn loyalist rioting and violence around Drumcree. A few months ago Jim Rodgers, yet again similarly, refused to condemn the firing of shots during a bonfire in East Belfast until he was in possession of all the facts.

The two main reasons why unionists - the elected ones that is, rather than the more decent saps that have made their condemnations clear here - are circumspect about criticising loyalist violence are firstly, that they get a hell of a lot of votes from these guys because quite a lot of ordinary unionists think that the actions of loyalists are "understandable", and secondly, they like to keep them onside in case they need to stage another wee "strike".

Sadly there is no effective pressure which can be applied to either tribe of politicians to give adequate leadership to their communities. DUP/SF have both prospered by behaving as cheerleaders for revenge and paranoia. It is pointless to expect them to change until the electorate change them. We in the province/six-counties/north/ulster have collectively got exactly the politicians we deserve.

There's plenty of pressure that can be brought. It starts with the tearing down of paramilitary regalia, murals and symbols in the neighbourhoods. Want that new school or hospital built ? Community centre needs funding ? Sure - but the murals have to go first.

Agreed Comrade

But none of our politicians are going to do it. At this point only an external supplier of funds ???? would have the guts to put the proposition.

Comrade,

In your "bringing pressure" scenario, who is offering the school, hospital or community center? Isn't Northern Ireland under direct rule, so that elected officials have no goodies to offer?

What is to stop the direct rulers from bringing the pressure ?

Colm,

What is the political motivation?

Here's how I think it is supposed to work. You elect local representatives to government, and one of the things they do in office is "get the goodies" to bring back to their constituents. If they don't, you vote them out next time.

If you didn't vote for the direct rulers in the first place, what is their political commitment to their non-constituents?

Sorry, I'd forgotten about this thread. Small wonder: seems to me there are few new furrows being ploughed.

But the Comrade asked: "Denny boy, are you saying that if a group of people are overwhelmingly Protestant then they must be bigoted or biased ? If not, then what exactly are you saying ?"

The word "overwhelming" is the key isn't it? It simply can't be right. A respectable medium ought not to be overwhelming anything: right wing, left wing, whatever. My wife takes the "Mail on Sunday" and it's a mystery to me why the British public never seem to question why most of their press is grossly partisan.

In a troubled place like Ulster – whoops, Northern Ireland – it might be prudent for the BBC to stock their front end with a balance of prod and taig. It's a perception thing, isn't it, and wheeling out armies of tea-ladies and doormen from the Falls to validate the "balance" doesn't cut it. Like justice, it has to seen to be done.

Denny,

It took me a while (and two readings) to figure out what you are talking about and what it has to do with reducing loyalist violence (which is nothing).

We have had the same problem here in the US with minorities being under-represented on television news. The face on camera vs. overall body count has been an issue, as has management vs. custodial positions. Civil rights groups have been fairly successful in influencing hiring by threatening boycvotts against the sponsors of the news programs.

I don't know what you do with a state-owned network, especially where you don't have any elected representatives to "bring pressure" and "get the goodies!" (How's that for tying it back to my comments above?)

'kitty, if the loyalists feel they are poorly represented by the DUP and UUP then why do they keep voting for them ? Why should the rest of us take responsibility if they do not want to elect representatives who will address the serious problems in their neighbourhoods ? I do not believe in a double mandate or double representation.'

I don't think they KNOW they are being poorly represented at all. Ignorance is bliss.
Here's the thing. Paisley et al have been known for whipping up Loyalism for their own gain, it has happened all through the troubles, time and time again. I don't think anyone can argue that.
But what has Loyalism gained from this? Nothing- and that is evidenced in their behaviour these days( and at many times).Look at the state they are in? Who has represented their areas which are drug infested slums at this stage. Their children are failing and their desperation at a peak- the signs of a forgotten people are there.
But as for your blog - I agree with most of what you have to say.

Alan, in my opinion the British government should be doing it. It should be made clear that the politicians need to get behind their own rhetoric of anti-paramilitarism, or all investment in these neighbourhoods will cease.

Kitty:

"I don't think they KNOW they are being poorly represented at all. Ignorance is bliss."

I hope you're not advocating that we should step in to save them from themselves ?

Alan, most of our media in this country is not state-owned. UTV for example is private.

We aren't going to educate the louts on either side by depriving them further. Helping poor people to get a life and build some respect for themselves is the first step in building some respect for others.

We live, North and South, in low tax economies where most people who 'miss the boat' early in life never get a chance to catch up. One of the few positive things the DUP has done is to make it clear that they want money poured into the loyalist areas.

As an ardent republican I'd like to make it clear that I back them all the way.

Stalin-'I hope you're not advocating that we should step in to save them from themselves ?'

Stalin, No, that's not what I am advocating. Looking forward to when some real leadership will emerge from within their communities and save themselves.

Lib- 'We aren't going to educate the louts on either side by depriving them further. Helping poor people to get a life and build some respect for themselves is the first step in building some respect for others.'

Agreed wholeheartedly. It is a pity of them, although at present it is hard to feel that pity sometimes.

'We live, North and South, in low tax economies where most people who 'miss the boat' early in life never get a chance to catch up. One of the few positive things the DUP has done is to make it clear that they want money poured into the loyalist areas.'

Well good and so they should. However, it does not take away from the fact that the DUP and UUP, who should have been representing this people, have not, or at least not adequately, especially during the troubles. All they have ever done is whip them into a frenzy that has resulted in armed hooded men marching round hills of Ballymena, and worse- the murderous campaigns that Loyalists have embarked on. Certain Loyalists have spoken on this issue, pointing out that speeches by Papa Doc for example have incited them, in their impressionable years etc etc. I don't need to rehash it, I am sure you are all( well most of us are:-)) knowledgeable of these things.

'As an ardent republican I'd like to make it clear that I back them all the way.'

I feel exactly the same way. I, also as a republican, with a considerable exposure to
( moderate??) Loyalists whom I have befriended mostly in discussion-like settings,would be very much in favour of huge investment within their deprived communities.

The government has been pumping millions into loyalist areas over the last few years

John Reid even upped the investment after meeting with paramilitary representatives in the East Belfast mission on the Newtownards Road.

Johnny Adair,Andre Shoukri,Mo Courtney,Jim Gray & Jackie McDonald were all in attendance

If money sorted these problems out they'd have been sorted out decades ago. That much is quite plain. In fact all such programmes seem to do is underscore the concept of 'loyalist communities'.
There should be no such concept. Loyalism is a criminal and seditious enterprise and should have no legitimacy at all, let alone geogr