Fair play to them. Fantastic.

A TRUE act of Cristianity.

I see that, an intelligent person, Gonzo here describes "Fuck the Pope" as a *Unionist* slogan. The challenge for Unionists must be to make it clear that it is not.

The sad thing is that this story is deemed newsworthy.
It should be a common reaction when these disgusting attacks take place.

BTW Slug, I'm a unionist and I often think f*ck the pope, but this is purely related to my views against the churches stance on choice and condoms etc, it has nothing to do with my catholic neighbours.

"it has nothing to do with my catholic neighbours"

You're insulting the head of their church, it's an insult to them. And it has nothing to do with them? Interesting.

It's no more an insult to them than saying f*ck Paisley is an insult to all free presbyterians.

The truth is that the church is not just a religious organisatio, it carries massive political clout.
On ought to be able to express views on the percieved outcome of the churchs policies.

Maca -
People have no bother saying 'F*** George Bush' when he come out with some of his more ridiculous statements - would you take that as an insult to all Americans as he is the head of state? I don't. If the sentiment is expressed because of the statements of the pope, that's fair game as far as I'm concerned, it is a completely different issue if it is expressed specifically because he is the leader of Catholicism. That's sectarian.

And as for the threats to revive Harryville? It has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Morons. It is long past time that Unionist leaders really make it very clear that this sort of carry on is completely indefensible - in public. And obviously it would help if all the Unionist politicians held that view in the first place. Sadly...

Such a simple act can generate so much goodwill. Well done.

maca,

there are millions of catholics (if not most) that say/think "fuck the pope" meaning they reject his position on divorce, contraception and all that other ridiculous junk they try to force on their congregation. Are you insisting that only catholics should criticise the church?

I think that most (nominal) Catholics "Fuck the Pope" in thought if not by word, when you look at the condom sales, births outside marriage etc etc.

TAFKABO, Ringo & Robert
Saying "fuck the Pope" is not "criticising" the Pope, it is a direct insult. I would be one of the first to criticise the Catholic church over their stance on many issues, but "Fuck the Pope" is an insult, simple as that.

Maca.

My bullshit detector starts ringing whenever anyone tries to tell me that something is "as simple as that"

have you any suggestions as to why this is happening?

This American observer says, Wow, are you guys touchy!

For starters, where does Gonzo say that the offensive phrase about the Pope is a Unionist slogan?

Anyway, youse should know that we Yanks OWN the Bible Belt, and we use it to discipline all and sundry who dare to disagree with us. Oh, yeah, we own God, too.

TAFKABO, so you have spoken to all Catholics and know for sure that none of them are offended when you say "Fuck the Pope"? Use your noggin.

TAFKABO

I am really surprised you often think "Fuck the pope" or are even trying to defend the term. I know what you are arguing - that nobody's above criticism - but in the NI context its a nasty sectarian slogan. Why make the point at all.

The slogan was "Fuck the Pope" which gonzo described as "unionist". The challenge is to show its not unionist. TAFKABO makes me wonder.

Maca and Slug.

I don't need to speak to very catholic to know that i don't intend them any insult by criticising the institution of the church.
I mentioned Paisley in my opening response, and note than neither of you has disagreed that it is wrong to say "f*ck paisley" as this could be construed as an insult to all the members of the church he heads.

If catholics can say it in response to edicts by the church, then why can't I?

Unless of course you are both suggesting that it's because I'm a unionist that the term becomes an insult?

Fuck the Pope is, of course, a sectarian slogan in our context, no question about it. I say that as a renegade from Catholicism who disagrees with just about every position the Church espouses, and who thinks the past two Popes in particular are no better than Bush, politically speaking.

But Ringo, I'm curious: why is the threat to revive the Harryville picket only 'stupid'. We hear this kind of weaselword response to sectarianism often from unionist politicans. To them such acts (Holy Cross comes to mind) are apparently 'stupid' only because they are bad pr for their noble cause. But aren't they much worse than stupid? Aren't they indicative of the level of sectarianism prevalent among a substantial section of the unionist community, to which such politicians almost always turn a blind eye? Aren't they offensive to all of us who want to live in a non-sectarian society? Isn't it understandable that nationalists, who have had to put up similar treatment since the founding of the NI state, and even earlier, would find them particularly offensive? Shouldn't you speak more clearly about these things?

Full honours to those who thought it worth their while to get rid of the graffiti. Best news we've had all week. And I mean that.

This is the first piece of really good news I've heard in years. May it start a trend.

Slug,

I'll ask you the question directly:

Where did Gonzo describe the slogan as unionist? I just can't find it.

Fuck the Pope is, of course, a sectarian slogan in our context, no question about it. I say that as a renegade from Catholicism who disagrees with just about every position the Church espouses, and who thinks the past two Popes in particular are no better than Bush, politically speaking.

But Ringo, I'm curious: why is the threat to revive the Harryville picket only 'stupid'. We hear this kind of weaselword response to sectarianism often from unionist politicans. To them such acts (Holy Cross comes to mind) are apparently 'stupid' only because they are bad pr for their noble cause. But aren't they much worse than stupid? Aren't they indicative of the level of sectarianism prevalent among a substantial section of the unionist community, to which such politicians almost always turn a blind eye? Aren't they offensive to all of us who want to live in a non-sectarian society? Isn't it understandable that nationalists, who have had to put up similar treatment since the founding of the NI state, and even earlier, would find them particularly offensive? Shouldn't you speak more clearly about these things?

Full honours to those who thought it worth their while to get rid of the graffiti. Best news we've had all week. And I mean that.

Fuck the Pope is, of course, a sectarian slogan in our context, no question about it. I say that as a renegade from Catholicism who disagrees with just about every position the Church espouses, and who thinks the past two Popes in particular are no better than Bush, politically speaking.

But Ringo, I'm curious: why is the threat to revive the Harryville picket only 'stupid'. We hear this kind of weaselword response to sectarianism often from unionist politicans. To them such acts (Holy Cross comes to mind) are apparently 'stupid' only because they are bad pr for their noble cause. But aren't they much worse than stupid? Aren't they indicative of the level of sectarianism prevalent among a substantial section of the unionist community, to which such politicians almost always turn a blind eye? Aren't they offensive to all of us who want to live in a non-sectarian society? Isn't it understandable that nationalists, who have had to put up similar treatment since the founding of the NI state, and even earlier, would find them particularly offensive? Shouldn't you speak more clearly about these things?

Full honours to those who thought it worth their while to get rid of the graffiti. Best news we've had all week. And I mean that.

Fuck the Pope is, of course, a sectarian slogan in our context, no question about it. I say that as a renegade from Catholicism who disagrees with just about every position the Church espouses, and who thinks the past two Popes in particular are no better than Bush, politically speaking.

But Ringo, I'm curious: why is the threat to revive the Harryville picket only 'stupid'. We hear this kind of weaselword response to sectarianism often from unionist politicans. To them such acts (Holy Cross comes to mind) are apparently 'stupid' only because they are bad pr for their noble cause. But aren't they much worse than stupid? Aren't they indicative of the level of sectarianism prevalent among a substantial section of the unionist community, to which such politicians almost always turn a blind eye? Aren't they offensive to all of us who want to live in a non-sectarian society? Isn't it understandable that nationalists, who have had to put up similar treatment since the founding of the NI state, and even earlier, would find them particularly offensive? Shouldn't you speak more clearly about these things?

Full honours to those who thought it worth their while to get rid of the graffiti. Best news we've had all week. And I mean that.

apologies all. techno stuff.

TAFKABO
"I don't need to speak to very catholic to know that i don't intend them any insult"

Note the highlighted word.
I can absolutly guarantee you that I know quite a number of people who would be insulted by "fuck the pope".

"I mentioned Paisley in my opening response, and note than neither of you has disagreed that it is wrong to say "f*ck paisley" as this could be construed as an insult to all the members of the church he heads."

I would assume many Free P's would be insulted by "Fuck Paisley". Why don't you test it next Sunday outside a Free P church?

"If catholics can say it in response to edicts by the church, then why can't I?"

What age are you, 13?
No one should say it in my opionion, no matter what their religion.

"Unless of course you are both suggesting that it's because I'm a unionist that the term becomes an insult?"

It's an insult to me because i'm catholic NOT because you are unionist (which I didn't know)

I actually have said F**k the Pope in numerous occassions, and in the company of other catholics - none of whom have taken any offense, and in fact, tend to agree.
But when written on a wall as a sectarian slogan, it is meant to offend and does (whether or not the catholic who reads it thinks the same ot not, it is still a sectarian insult).
Whether it is an insult or not depends on the context, and if it is meant to offend.
Here it was meant to offend and not to pass comment on the Popes stand on anything, but to say "you're belifs are worth nothing"

See Maca, the thing is.

I never said "f*ck the pope", I just mentioned that I have and do say it on occasion.

Are you seriously telling me that you are offended by things I say when you aren't around?

Nice to see the spirit of those young people in Ballymena being replicated so well here.

TAFKABO
"I never said "f*ck the pope", I just mentioned that I have and do say it on occasion."

So you never said it but you did say it and do say it??? You want to rephrase that? lol

We need a team of volunteers to scub out Tafkabo's mouth.

No.

My post is pefectly understandable.

I didn't use the phrase here, I mentioned that I use the phrase on occasion.

My question remains.
Are you offended by what I say when you aren't around?

Or to put it another way, do you expect me to modify my language to please your sensibilities, even in your absence?

TAFKABO
What i'm saying is not difficult to understand, i'll try to make it clearer. The phrase "fuck the pope" is offensive to many Catholics. It IS as simple as that.

ok thats enough use of the f*** word for now!!!!

I humbly suggest that the policies of the pope are more offensive to more catholics than the phrase "f*ck the pope " is to a few.

(I presume to speak for all catholics in the same way that you do, since I fail to see why you have any more right than I have to do so.)

This is an inspiring development that should give us all hope. In late June, a young protestant school kid in Randalstown was so angered at loyalists erecting a union jack outside a catholic school that he took it down on his way to school and gave it to his teachers, saying he did not want his catholic friends to feel intimidated.

Just another little incident that augurs well for the future.

I detest the Pope and most of what he stands for but how Tafkabo can post his offensive string of messages without every unionist who reads this blog coming down on him like a ton of bricks is beyond me. Stra-n-n-n-ge people!

BTW the guys in Ballymena were brill!

I'm sorry, but I don't think I've posted a single message that any reasonable person would find offensive.
I hope you understand that I find sectariansim abhorent, and my opening post in praise of the people mentioned was genuine.
I'm not here to bait people or score points.
if anything I have said is unreasonable or can be considered offensive, then I apologise.

I shall refrain from posting any more on this thread.

Great news!!!

Good to see this group of young Presbyterians doing noble deeds.

I think the youth is the start and will be the end of the problems in Northern Ireland.

Excuse me, but who would even WISH to fúck the pope?

Joking aside, that gesture in Ballymena is also the finest, most heartwarming piece of news I've heard all week. It gives one hope that things can improve and that people in NI can indeed coexist happily.

TAFKABO
"I presume to speak for all catholics in the same way that you do"

'Cept I don't presume to speak for all catholics.

Denny Boy,

[\this will be a sarcasm-free post]

The good work of the young people of High Kirk Presbyterian Church is indeed heart warming. The BBC report quotes the group's youth pastor as saying "we wanted to show our kindness to the Catholic community. This is a show of solidarity."

So shines a good deed in a weary world.

I am generally suspicious of "gestures", like people feeling that they have to go to joint services to prove that they are not bigots etc., but this actually had me smiling and thinking "What a lovely thing to do", and I also think it highly likely that these young men would be embarrased about it being commented on because to them it was not a big deal.

If an American can insert an example from our experience here in the US. We have had -- and to some extent, still have -- a racial problem. But one thing the white community has learned is that only the target can truly determine whether a given phrase/action/word is offensive or not. As a Catholic, I find the phrase "f*** the Pope" offensive and, I dare say, most Catholics, both practicing and fallen away, would agree.

So, TAFKABO, here's the bottom line: the phrase IS offensive and it's time and long past time that you dropped it completely.

As far as Catholics using the phrase, let me again refer to our American experience. Black Americans find the term "nigger"and some of its derivatives highly offensive, no matter what whites think about it. But, it is not uncommon to hear one black refer to another as a "nigger". So, TAFKABO, the plain and simplle fact that Catholics may use the phrase among themselves does NOT make its use any less offensive when you use it.

If an American can insert an example from our experience here in the US. We have had -- and to some extent, still have -- a racial problem. But one thing the white community has learned is that only the target can truly determine whether a given phrase/action/word is offensive or not. As a Catholic, I find the phrase "f*** the Pope" offensive and, I dare say, most Catholics, both practicing and fallen away, would agree.

So, TAFKABO, here's the bottom line: the phrase IS offensive and it's time and long past time that you dropped it completely.

As far as Catholics using the phrase, let me again refer to our American experience. Black Americans find the term "nigger"and some of its derivatives highly offensive, no matter what whites think about it. But, it is not uncommon to hear one black refer to another as a "nigger". So, TAFKABO, the plain and simplle fact that Catholics may use the phrase among themselves does NOT make its use any less offensive when you use it.

Bob McGowan,

As a fellow American, let me ask you if you find it odd that a thread about good deeds turned into a p!ssing contest after the second post? I noted above that Slug injected the "FTP" comment from out of nowhere, and then we were off to the races.

Another similar situation here in the USA is the Republicans trying to turn any question about Bush's Supreme Court nominee into an anti-Christian assault. If any of my American friends ask me why people in NOrhtern Ireland can't get along, I would direct them to this thread.

I think we can all agree that when FTP is used as a slogan in any public context ( graffiti, shouted by hangers on at a sectarian gathering, displayed on a loyalist artwork) it is clearly not being used to express theological disagreement with papal doctrine.

Colm,

I agree. Here in America, discussions on doctrinal differences cause people to speak not of fornication but of assassination. But you know how heretical some American Catholics can be.

Christian acts. Whatever next.

Alan McDonald

I drove past the Harryville Church on Saturday and there was only ONE slogan written in big letters on the front door: Fuck the Pope.

There was only one slogan. That is the slogan Gonzo was referring to. It was not a unionist slogan it was an anti-catholic slogan.

I am astonished that TAFKABO writes what he does. Its pretty crass stuff, no matter that you disagree with the pope, everyone knows the phrase is insensitive and sectarian coming from a protestant in an NI context.

I'm sorry but I must clarify a few points.

I'm not a protestant, I'm an atheist, and I'm not in Northern Ireland, neither have I ever used the phrase in a Northern Ireland context.

Y'all need to wind yer necks in.

Slug,

Thank you so much for the context. Being 3000 miles away is sometimes an inconvenience where context is needed. Being there is everything.

Thanks again.

TAFKABO - you said you were a unionist and often thought "fuck the pope". I was surprised you would construct such a sentence.

Slug.

I explained the context more than once and adequately enough for you to understand what I meant.

I'm not going to waste anymore time on your willful ignorance.

I know you have. Its just that a unionist cannot use those words. Period!

"Its just that a unionist cannot use those words. Period!"

I beg to differ.

And to prove you wrong.........

Fuck the pope.

See.

We can.

Of course you can say it but think it would always seem undiplomatic.

FWIW, I was brought up a Catholic but have since completely rejected all religion; I'm quite happy to defend anyone's right to say "fuck the pope", it is free speech and as such is an entirely legitimate expression of opinion, just like burning a national flag. It is everyone's right to insult someone else's religion or beliefs. Just because people pick a range of axioms they decide to call a religion does not mean that everyone else automatically loses the right to describe them as ridiculous or mock them.

[Equally, it is quite acceptable to say "Fuck the moderator" or "fuck the leader of the General Synod" but it doesn't quite have the same ring to it.. ]

"Of course you can say it but think it would always seem undiplomatic"

more or less undiplomatic that patronising me and telling me what I could and couldn't say?

Look as an commonsense aethiest I'm every bit as ideologically opposed to catholic craziness as I am about Free Pee preposterousness or Baptist bunkum or Muslim mince but everyone, absolutely everyone, knows that the FTP slogan in NI is directed not against Rome or the lunatic theology therein but it is a straightforward means of giving a stern one fingered orange salute to Irish non-unionists and is only uttered precisely BECAUSE it is interpreted as such by said Irish non-unionists.

Hey, F them ALL.

This is hilarious. Slugger at its best and weirdest. I think TAFKABO has a right to think anything he wants. He can also condemn the Papacy in as strong a language as he wants. What he can't do is ignore the symbolic and social context of a phrase like FTP used in NI. I think we all agree.

The events in Ballymena brought a tear to this lil' one-eyed irishman.

the graffiti cleaners are either christians who happen to be prod or unionists who realise that being nice to catholics strengthens the union or both.
Either way fair play to them.

TAFKABO, I didn't mean to patronise, my apologies.

I notice nobody has the cajones to say f*ck the boss man himself on this thread, even the atheists (gauntlet thrown down TAFKABO, Fishfiss).

That's two cases of people from the unionist community taking matters into their own hands on anti-Catholic graffiti this year.

There were people out in Belfast cleaning up anti-papal graffiti when JP2 died as well. They replaced it with the simple word "sorry".

Sure a cynic would say it was only done for selfish interests but hats off boys (and girls), it certainly warmed my heart to hear this.

Never easy to stick one's head above the parapet but who ever said being a real Christian was easy?

"[i]Another similar situation here in the USA is the Republicans trying to turn any question about Bush's Supreme Court nominee into an anti-Christian assault. If any of my American friends ask me why people in NOrhtern Ireland can't get along, I would direct them to this thread."]/i]

Well, Alan, I wonder where you live. The issue which seems to be creating the most fuss is abortion, specifically whether Roe v Wade shoud be revisited by SCOTUS. Now, the division on this issue is hardly a religious division since a lot of non-Christians from the Jewish and Muslim comminities share the views of many Christians. More accurately, the division is more along the line of secular vs. religious viewpoints.

And, a lot of Americans are coming to think that SCOTUS exceeded its constituitional role in Roe v Wade, i.e. that the Constitution is silent on the issue and it should have been left to the States to decide, each one for itself. Or to come together and delegate the authority to regulate this issue to the Federal Government.

Now, since the Christians are the main religious denomination here, the thrust against the Bush nominee, though basically anti-religious, is seen as basically anti-Christian.

And, while anti-abortion violence was around for a while that while pretty far past and roundly condemned by the religious groups.

Don't get your knickers in a knot.

Hi, Bob

Yes, I'm a blue state pro-choice liberal Democrat. No, we didn't win, and, yes, you do get to put your man on the court.

And, yes, I guess this discussion we are having does have something to do with Northern Ireland, because it is power politics disguised as religious intolerance.

BTW, I don't wear knickers.

"It is everyone's right to insult someone else's religion or beliefs."

Not in the UK if it incites hatred and violence.

I think it best to steer clear of insulting people's religion or religious leaders.

In matters of faith it's hard for people to defend their religion rationally, so it becomes an attack on people's worth and potentially very hurtful.

Also, religious leaders can't usually issue gratuitous insults without losing status, so its a bit unfair to attack them. Tho' it would be funny to have Pope Benedict come back with "and f--- you too TAFKABO" at todays address.

Come to think of it, appearing in a grand architectural setting to an adoring world wide audience is a pretty effective riposte to a wee Ulster Unionist.

What people should or should not do is not the same as what they should be allowed to do or not allowed to do.

Yes FTP has a meaning and symbolism beyond its literal meaning. On the other hand I don't think that means that anyone has to sign up to that meaning.

A la "I don't agree with what you said but would defend to my death your right to say it", I agree with the principle but can't see me dying in a ditch to defend someone's right to say FTP, even if I probably should.

Whether or not they should say it is another question and in most cases my opinion would be no. This is not absolute because, to all intents and purposes I am saying myself now.

So, yes, I think someone does have a right to say FTP, but I have a right, depending on the circumstance, to consider that someone a moron. [I don't mean you TAFKABO, in this case]. Of course that someone has a right not to give a flying F, what I think.

aquifer

You think it is best for people to steer clear of attacking others' religion or religous beliefs.

Should the same restrictions apply to religous moralists and their attacks on atheists, homosexuals, 'fornicators' and other sinners they predict will 'rot in hell'.

George

F%*& Himself !

I see the thread has got even sillier, well the week's over, time to relax an' be silly.

It's got nothing to do with free speech (C.Stalin), it's about respect. You can say anything you want, but some things you shouldn't say ... out of respect for others.

Maca.

Would you condemn someone who says f*ck paisley in the same way you condemn someone wo says FTP, for the same reasons?

Right, enough silliness! I guess some people would rather play the Pope than the ball(!)

'FTP' painted on the front of Harryville church was clearly designed to be offensive. It may well be used in another context (because context and intent are important) to express blunt disapproval of Papal dogma, but it is hardly likely to gain a sympathetic audience or be persuasive, since it fails to rationally address any issue.

Either way, symbolic heads of large institutions (Queen, Pope, Paisley, Adams, Bush etc...) always end up copping the flak for their organisation. I guess the buck has to stop somewhere, and if you need a target to criticise, you personalise the issue by having a pop at the guy at the top.

Interesting though, to consider that while there is an important principle of free speech here, that the new anti-terror laws the Govt is rushing through could make (if the law is strong and tested) such public utterances illegal.

The law appears to be coming in to deal with fears of extreme Muslim fundamentalist preachers persuading young men to sign up to al-Qaida, or perhaps to prevent incitement to racial hatred or attacks.

However, the new law has the potential to be used in the NI context. Already, manic street preachers are worried that their open air sermons will be forced off the streets. I can certainly think of one or two 'pastors' that SHOULD have been prosecuted for certain remarks that - if they had not been uttered - would have meant Catholics not getting burned out of their homes after the inflammatory comments, or, in one case at least, murdered.

But where should the line be drawn? It might be very unwise for TAFKABO to stand in the middle of Cornmarket and shout 'FTP', but should he have the right to? What if he were to merely inform us, in guldering tones, that all Catholics were going to burn in hell forever or there is a Catholic conspiracy to drive the godly Ulster Pradastints out of the land of their birth for eternity?! Could *gasp* Slugger be taken off the net for the content of this thread?! God forbid...

It would certainly be an interesting legal case, if someone were to make a complaint to the PSNI about a City Hall Bible thumper, particularly if the complainant recorded a moment of indiscretion!

Anyway, fair play to High Kirk group for their inspiring work. Maybe Ballyloughan and other churches in the area will join in too.

But it's interesting that this and the incident where an Antrim schoolkid removed a flag were 'grass roots' expressions of resistance to sectarianism from within the Protestant community's own 'tribe'. Both actions noteably involved young people. I wonder what it was motivated them to stick their heads above the parapet? A sense of guilt? Embarrassment? A progressive moral outlook? Where once it was accepted that people said nothing about their 'own' community's bigotry, coat-trailing or criminality, now we are seeing more cases of defiance against the extremists who hold far too much sway here.

Making gestures in Northern Ireland is not without risk. Not just in terms of personal safety, but in terms of how those around you can react. While some might regard 'reaching out' as somehow treacherous, such simple, unilateral actions on the ground can also make a difference.

I remember during the Harryville protest in Ballymena groups of Quakers and Presbyterians who came and stood outside the Church of Our Lady in a kind of couter-protest. Well, it wasn't a 'protest', more a show of solidarity with the parishioners. They seemed grateful and appreciative that Prods of various religious and political views stood by them. It wasn't really a 'fly by night' thing either, as they returned most weeks (if not all) and were there while bricks flying too.

Some will regard such small gestures as insignificant, but I don't think they are. Challenging notions that are sometimes taken for granted within one's own community by speaking out is something that is vital to moving Northern Ireland forward.

Those involved in making efforts to build a more united community here face the toughest political challenge of all, but the symbolic gesture that the Antrim schoolboy made or the High Kirk youth group's practical outreach may make the unthinkable seem more possible in future.

Well said Gonzo...lets get back to the issue at hand and just congratulate those brave youngsters. If this can be replicated, then NI, six counties or whatver you prefer to call it will be a better place for all. Maybe Alan MacD will visit so he can see progress first hand. If you haven't grown up in NI, you may not understand why things are so "touchy"....

Mr. Barnes,

Thank you for the invitation. Actually, I sent my son there in 2004 to compete in the World Irish Dance Championships,and he said that he had a good time.

Gonzo

Since Mr. Barnes noted my "touchy" comment, where is your answer to Slug's question from the second post that got this thread off-track in the first place?

"I wonder what it was motivated them to stick their heads above the parapet? A sense of guilt? Embarrassment? A progressive moral outlook? "

When I drove past Harryville Church I wanted to do something. (Pathetially I didn't end up doing anything but at least I felt something shoud be done). Just sensed it was deeply immoral to write that slogan and wanted somehow to show Catholics that those people did not represent ordinary protestants.

"Where once it was accepted that people said nothing about their 'own' community's bigotry, coat-trailing or criminality, now we are seeing more cases of defiance against the extremists who hold far too much sway here."

I think it did used to be more tolerated to say bigoted things, back in my grandparents generations, but some people even then have always stood against bigotry too.

And its not just young people. My uncle, who is retired, is constantly painting out red-white-blue kerbstones outside his house in Lisburn. The local councillors do nothing to help him in this.

"But where should the line be drawn? It might be very unwise for TAFKABO to stand in the middle of Cornmarket and shout 'FTP', but should he have the right to? What if he were to merely inform us, in guldering tones, that all Catholics were going to burn in hell forever or there is a Catholic conspiracy to drive the godly Ulster Pradastints out of the land of their birth for eternity?! Could *gasp* Slugger be taken off the net for the content of this thread?! God forbid..."

Why did you choose me for such an odious example?
I am extremely offended by your example, and it's implicit suggestion that I would want to behave in such a fashion.

I think some people here are deliberately using some out of context remarks as a convenient excuse to indulge in a bit of unionist bashing.

I thought that this site was above such behaviour.

I chose you because it was you who was defending your right to free expression. Now I'm exercising mine.

No offence intended - but do you see what I mean now about how easily some people take offence when issues are personalised?

Apologies, but you've just illustrated my point perfectly!

Colm 10.38

"You think it is best for people to steer clear of attacking others' religion or religous beliefs."

Yes, especially in an abusive or dismissive manner, and with no particular issue in view.

"Should the same restrictions apply to religous moralists and their attacks on atheists, homosexuals, 'fornicators' and other sinners they predict will 'rot in hell'."

No. If 'religious' figures chose to engage other people in the public sphere and attack their behaviour they can expect a range of verbal responses in return.

"wonder what it was motivated them to stick their heads above the parapet? A sense of guilt? Embarrassment? A progressive moral outlook? "

Following the teachings of their spiritual leader perhaps, or maybe just because they're decent people?

Why do we need to over-analyse such actions, let's just give them the praise they deserve and hope their example is followed elsewhere.

I've scrolled down as my head was spinning. FTP is offensive.
As a proletarian 'prod' atheist, I still know why it is offensive. Wind your neck in alphabet boy, FTP is out of order. It's there with 'KAH' (Kill all Huns)in my world. Crass, inexcusable, sectarian.

Well done Alan McD on sending your child to NI, it is a good sign. Used to be that trips from the USA to the island were confined to the South. For years, only a handful of brave few tourists, and some rock bands like Blackfoot and Meatloaf came to the North. Glad to hear he had a great time, hope he did well.
There are lots of gable walls to be cleaned if you are interested in a working holiday.

Gonzo.

using your logic.

You went ahead with your post, despite the fact that it might cause offence.
others here are lamabsting me for suggesting that I have the same rights as you to free expression.

I'm not going to play along with this MOPE hypocrisy.

Fuck the pope.

And fuck the rest of you who practice double standards.

I was just thinking about how I would describe this thread and direct someone to it.

"Well its called 'More news form the bible belt..' and it is mostly about the pros and cons of saying F@@k the Pope.

What a weird place NI is.

It time for the MODERATORS to step up and do something about profanity. If you must use it, add in a few *** its not that difficult.

I thought profanity was against the rules?

Mick, what say you??

TAFKABO, why is shouting "FTP" in the middle of Cornmarket so shockingly and materially different than your rigid insistence on using the silly phrase here on Slugger, where so many posters and moderators of strongly held opinions nonetheless struggle daily to try to find some common ground between two weary, wary communities?

FTP is a sectarian slogan that is older than the Troubles. As RedPaul points out, it is inextricably linked to a painful history of Loyalist intimidation against Catholics, just as KAH is inextricably linked to a history of intimidation and violence against Protestants. It is not the same as saying F*** Paisley, F*** Bush, F*** Blair, F*** Adams, etc., etc. (apologies to the SDLP, UUP and Alliance for leaving them out here)

Kudos to the Balleymena youths for cleaning up the graffiti and handing out roses to the parishioners. A wise and kind thing to do. The end of sectarianism can and will come only when sectarian offenses are unacceptable within the offenders' own communities.

S.O.S.

you seem to have missed the point that until my last post I never used the phrase at all on Slugger.

I was talking ABOUT the phrase, and the context in which I have used it in the past.
Unfortunately, some people are hellbent on ignoring this an acting as if they have been mortally offended when the phrase wasn't even used.

The key point here is not that I was talking about the phrase, rather that I as a self confessed Unionist was talking about the phrase.

Swear to god, if we could harness the energy from knees jerking in this thread, I dare say the energy crisis would be solved.

TAFKABO, let's see if I've got this straight. All the above posters -- Protestant, Catholic, atheist, unionist, republican, and nationalist -- who voiced their objections to your references and use of a NI sectarian slogan associated with intimidation and violence in NI on a NI message board objected because you are a "self-confessed unionist" and they are MOPEing hypocrites. You have a right to say and think what you please here, but others are less justified when they post their own reactions to what you say, and what you say you think. Was that your point, or is there more?

The parades commission ruling seems to prevent the march going past many Unionist areas. Yet every year, thousands of Orange parades are allowed through Catholic areas. Hypocrisy.

I think we are to some degree having a heated agreement.

TAFKABO did origionally post "BTW Slug, I'm a unionist and I often think f*ck the pope, but this is purely related to my views against the churches stance on choice and condoms etc, it has nothing to do with my catholic neighbours."

So just thinking it cannot be considered in the context of intimidating or insulting his Roman Catholoc neighbours, which is why I specifically excluded him from censure in my 10.25 post of yesterday.

He has since said that he has said it too, but unless I have missed something, we have no reason to beleive that he does this in a manner or set of circumstances that would offend. He may have said it to his friends, who may include RCs and who because of their relationship with him do not take offence and who he knows will not.

I have seen nothing that he has posted (again I may have missed it) that tells me that he would or would approve of saying FTP to people whom he does not know well and may be offended by it.

Bertie, I understood TAFNABO's original post -- the wording was an unfortunate distraction from his main intent, which seemed to me to be to applaud the actions of the youth group in Balleymena -- but I understood the post. What shocked me was the uncivility of his last post to Gonzo.

SOS fair enough.

I wasn't thinking of you specifically when I last posted, just that I was getting the general impression that we all seemed to be coming from the same place and, as I said having a heated agreement.

Lets give the pope(s) a break.

Remember that JPII gave an impassioned plea to the provos when he visited Drogheda in 1979. It took them 26 years to heed his advice. Sadly he wasn't around to see it.

Today, the current echoed a 1979 call by Pope John Paul II to "distance oneself from the paths of violence and return to the road to peace."

In Drogheda, JPII told 250,000 people, mostly from Northern Ireland: "On my knees, I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and to return to the ways of peace."

You see, these popes are actually not bad guys. Even this NI supporting loyalist can see that.

Time for "The Pope was Right" wristbands??

Wiliam

I notice you refer to yourself as a "loyalist". Can I ask you why and what you consider the difference in meaning (if any) between this and "unionist"?

Bertie - there is no difference in thoise words for me, just semantics in my mind. I could have easily used unionist in the sentence. Loyalist, for me, means loyal to the state of the union of NI within the UK. In today's politically correct world, is loyalist frowned upon? If so, I won't use it again on slugger.

Anyway, about the popes being alright, and those wristbands....

William

It's certainly not up to me to set the definitions on Slugger, I was just interested in your view.

It seems to me that most people, not necessarily on Slugger tend to use the words "republican" and "loyalist" to mean "nationalist" and "unionist" with terrorism. I have resented the hijacking of a word that I actually define as you do, by Irvine et al. At the same time I tend to stick to the term unionist just to be safer. My only rebellion is to put loyalist in quotes when refering to "loyalist" terrorists.

Don't stop using the expression on my account. I know what you mean now :o)

The word loyalist should be fazed out.
Over the last 35 years the word loyalist has most often been followed by the word paramilitary etc. It has now become an offensive word. CWB, the word loyalist is "frowned upon" and please do stop using it.

In my book, you have a yellow card.

Cheers Bertie. I think we are on the same page then...I appreciate your comments. NI is changing, so I will also stick with unionist if it aids the peace process and makes for a kinder, gentler debate on slugger.

Although Mr MacTaig is intent on making me feel guilty for using the word loyalist, I'm not switching to "unionist" because of the threat of your imaginery yellow card!!

It is very sad that a place of worship should be targeted.However a Republican parade in Ballymena is just set to whip up tensions and bring the rabble in. It should have been banned.

Its funny how parades are used to whip up tensions and bring in the rabble.

We have seen many instances of this over the years

C. William Barnes, I feel for your pain. You took the time to post some conciliatory words about the leader of a spiritual tradition that is not your own, and what do you get? An imaginary yellow card waved in your face for using the dreaded "L" word.

In the spirit of those good eggs from High Kirk Presbyterian, I would like to present you with an imaginary rose, in the imaginary colour of your choosing.

One thing is certain. Whatever Pope Benedict XVI's gifts and shortcomings may be, the continuing absence of any underappreciated moderators being wheeled in to this thread to deliver a wheeze about Pope Benedict XVI, "one of organised religion's most senior and highly respected superstars" is proof positive the Pontiff has never threatened to take Moloney-type legal redress against sluggerotoole. And for that, I for one thank him. God bless the Pope!

and C. William....please let us know how you are faring with that wristband idea of yours...

How very Northern Irish of you all to go completely off-topic!

The point was that a deliberate act of kindness was carried out in Ballymena. Perhaps F**k Sectarianism is more appropriate in the circumstances....

It could be argued that we stayed with the spirit of the thread in that a lot of the posts were about meteophorically removing what might be considered by some to be "unionist graffiti" from Slugger ;o)

I for one, as a lapsed catholic - therefore a heathen to all of you claiming to be christian - would like to express thanks for the gesture. Amazing to think that this kind gesture will have set certain republican elements in the town back a considerable distance. People don't want murder started with nice people who give you flowers. Don't get me wrong though - I think Ballymena's ripe for a revolution, and I for one would love to see it.

SOS ... thanks for the post and your deliberate act of kindness carried out on slugger. I feel vindicated.
Levee's F**k Sectarianism slogan is ok, but too harsh for kids. I was thinking that "stop all sectarianism" wristbands might be good too...except that it doesn't work out too well in short form...
S.A.S. (lol) I know Mr MacTaig would be all over that one. It is draining being from NI.

I think they should be S.O.S wristbands in honour of our very own poster on slugger, and to capture the actions of these decent young people

SCRUB OUT SECTARIANISM...I'm off to the trademark office...

awwww Micky....talk amongst yourselves, I'm overcome! "Scrub Out Sectarianism" is a brilliant tribute to the graffiti removers in Ballymena and in cyberspace, but I worry S.O.S. wristbands might be confused with support for the Secretary of State, which, as we know, tends to ebb and flow just a wee bit....

I'd been fiddling with "Sectarianism Bites." Levee's "F*** Sectarianism" is still undeniably catchy, particularly if we keep the asterisks to avoid launching a sea of "F*** Blue Language" tees and wristbands in counterprotest.

We're clearly on the one road here....let's all keep thinking!

Micky...if you haven't left yet, I've a better wristband...
Sectarianism Sucks - Republicans and Unionists Concur
Wait! SS RUC..oops thats not going to work either...damn!

These ideas are not bad, but everyone who has worked in marketing knows that sex sells. I suggest

Sectarianism Hurts All Groups it Must End

S.H.A.G. M.E. bands are sure to be the talk of Ulster. I ask you, is there a better way to bring the communities together? Can't you see the public awareness posters...In a neutral chip shop Sadie and Paddy see each others bands, look into each others eyes...

Spartacus -

sorry for the delay - bank holiday and all that...

But Ringo, I'm curious: why is the threat to revive the Harryville picket only 'stupid'. We hear this kind of weaselword response to sectarianism often from unionist politicans. To them such acts (Holy Cross comes to mind) are apparently 'stupid' only because they are bad pr for their noble cause. But aren't they much worse than stupid?

Harryville was grotesque, unbelievable, bizarre but unfortunately, precedented. As is so much of what passes for acceptable behaviour in the north. What I find particularly depressing is that for these sort of things to cease to exist, one of two things need to happen -
1) for those who picketed Harryville or Holy Cross to realise that that is an unacceptable way to treat their neighbours, end of story.
2) or realise that these protests do not aid themselves and their hoplessly narrow objectives in any way - PR included.

I see little chance of 1 occuring - basically because I have no reason to think that they will go to their graves anything other than poisoned souls - so I resign myself to hoping that 2 will prevail - they'd have to be stupid not to.

Aren't they indicative of the level of sectarianism prevalent among a substantial section of the unionist community, to which such politicians almost always turn a blind eye?
Yes. I wouldn't be too smug about the other side either though.

Aren't they offensive to all of us who want to live in a non-sectarian society?
Yes.

Isn't it understandable that nationalists, who have had to put up similar treatment since the founding of the NI state, and even earlier, would find them particularly offensive?
Yes.

Shouldn't you speak more clearly about these things?

Not sure why you think I should speak more clearly on the issue. Unionists aren't really that taken with the views of Galwegians usually.
Although I did read recently that Carson used to play a bit of hurling when he spent his summers near Athenry.

You lot with the wristbands have got way too much free time on your hands...especially you Dougie.

Crunchie, you are toast.

Dougie, from a woman's perspective, (erm, mine) S.H.A.G.M.E. wristbands might be a tad too direct. If we restore the "I" and retain the full acronym for your slogan -- S.H.A.G.I.M.E. -- I believe "shag-i me" has a certain swarthy, shipwrecked, love-starved Mediteranean urgency that plain old "shag me" lacks. Still....

The only anti-sectarian wristbands I could find on the net were in Scotland. The Scots had great success with green and blue "Say No to Sectarianism" wristbands. Yet, like C. Williams' and Macker's earlier suggestions, "Ulster Says No...to Sectarianism" might be weighed down by certain historical overtones.

Perhaps "Ulster Says No Thank You".....

SOS - Now everything is clear to me. Your thoughtful and appropriate comments are like aromatherapy to the thread that turned malodourous. It is because you are bringing the woman's perspective into this ocean of testosterone known as Slugger O'Toole.

As a swarthy Belfast-man, I say great to have you on board sailor!

C. William, thank you. Swarthy is always appropriate. But we digress....

In all earnestness, I've come round to thinking our Mackers was on to something with his "Scrub Out Sectarianism." Leaving my slugger name and the Secretary of State well, well, out of it, it works because --

1.) It pays tribute to the quite deliberate act of kindness of the youths from High Kirk who scrubbed the wall of their neighbors' church. While hardly the first act of cross-community kindness, perhaps it comes at the right moment to inspire a wider -- and more widely reported -- movement within both communities to actively reject sectarianism wherever and whenever it rears its ugly head. Much as Rosa Parks' refusal to move to the back of the bus once lit the torch of America's Civil Rights Movement.

2.) SOS -- the international distress signal requesting emergency assistance -- remembered by sailors as "Save Our Ship" or "Save Our Souls" -- seems appropriate here, too -- at least to me.

Anyone else agree Mackers was on to something?

I will commit to buying 10 SOS Scrub Out Sectarianism wristbands. Please avoid orange and green as the primary colour so as all can be happy to wear them.

Glad you like it SOS. Lets get Belfast City Hall to make up a few 1000 and see where it goes. In addition to the scrubbing out, we also need some volunteers to paint back in Derek Dougan's face on the mural in East Belfast.

Pure genius on both counts, Mackers. And since the Doog is a well-known Protestant married to a devout Catholic (who was also, I believe, a devout Wolverhampton supporter) I suggest we send him the first wristband.

C. William, we are on the same page. I'd mentally ruled out green and orange schemes, but I am stumped to the final colour choice.

Mackers, what say you?

SOS - What happens when you combine orange and green on the colour wheel?
Maybe a chocolate brown colour band would be good?

Here's one vote for white.

Mackers, I believe technically orange combined with green leaves you holding some sort of yellow, which can make the typical Northern complexion appear sallow -- the gallant, swarthy C. William excepted, of course.

I may be squeamish, but chocolate is also the colour of mud, and there's been enough mud slung already.

What do you think about white, with red letters? The red message would really "pop" against a white background, and would work with your SOS/emergency theme.

In keeping with the ocean/sea theme, I say white with red letters is great...just like the classic floatation devices. As long as we can keep them clean. Maybe an eggshell or ecru?? lol

g'wan, g'wan with that talk of eggshell and ecru, C. William! Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I can tell one shade from the other.

If we do go with white, we'll have to get red lettering, or our bands will look just like the white bands for Bono's ONE campaign. It's getting late, but tomorrow I'll see how much it adds to costs to have contrasting colours.

Ricardo and Beano - will you wear an S O S wristband to Windsor park, or anywherew else to show that you stand for scrubbing out sectarianism?
I will, and I feel confident that you will too. It will go well with the We Exist bands :))

Great idea SOS, please give us an update when you get them ready. I love this kind of grass roots effort. Maybe something good will come out of Slugger other than a bunch of lads slagging each other. I'm sure the IFA would be happy to promote them and even give them out at the upcoming world cup matches at Windsor park. Even though 70% of the fans at the 2nd match will be from England, it would be worthwhile.

Loafer, the idea belongs to Mackers, Levee, and C. Williams, I just think it might be an idea whose time has come.

I have an SOS of my own out to a friend who knows how to pull strings, or maybe someone will surface with an "in" somewhere.

I have a style question for anyone out there in sluggerland still reading this thread. Sponsor or no, distributor or no, it all comes down to if people will wear the wristbands. Most wristbands are either custom molded silicone or printed on rubber bands. My instinct is that no one over the age of 5 would wear a printed rubber band? I've discovered there are firms that will print on silicone -- essential if we are going with a red on white colour scheme.

Would you wear a wristband? Custom molded silicone? Printed silicone? What colour? I need to know if this could really work, or if a few of us are just having a midsummer's collective breakdown here. Many thanks!

Calm yourselves. There's no need to start a stampede.

S.O.S
Great idea.
Send a few over to the two main football clubs in Glasgow as well.
Colour wise I'd prefer a subtle Roman Ochre to match my Belfast suntan!

I'm on it, PSR. And remember...We Are Wan.

S.O.S,

Alan from America here. I will proudly wear a wristband (preferably the red on white); and I promise that, should I ever make the trip to Belfast, I'll scrub walls with C. William Barnes!

How about white on blue? Might be nicer. Count me in for a few anyway.

Loafer

The IFA already produce their own 'Football For All' wristbands, you can read about them here.

http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6006

But I think the SOS one is a good idea, I think the Old Firm in scotland have a similar one already.

Now we're gaining altitude. I'm interpreting this scientific survey as a global upsurge of support for "SOS/Scrub Out Sectarianism" wristbands. Thanks, all! Hopefully I'll be able to get a lead on sponsorship and/or distribution.

"The IFA already produce their own 'Football For All' wristbands, you can read about them here."

ricardo

Do you take it off before singing rule britannia

*YAWN*

Perhaps the northern ireland football wristband could have an electronic device fitted to it which sent an electric shock into the arm everytime the supporters started singing sectarian songs.

It might have a bit more success.

I am all for the bands. Sign me up for a couple.

Silicon embedded into the band is the way to go.

I'll wear it to Windsor so if you are looking for me Och Aye, you know who I am. I love the idea, its not about NI football, ROI or any team...the message transcends all of that. That is why this band is even more important to wear to Windsor. Its not a NI football band, but a band that all should wear in our daily lives - at least those who despise sectarianism of all sorts.

SOS - as any veteran of slugger might predict, there are going to be wise Alec's, smartarses etc. don't sway in your conviction to pursue this ... its a great step. Even if only a few of us wear them, its our version of scrubbing walls for all to see.

I'm in for a band. No cheap print on letters please. High quality is the only way to fly.

Good on ye S O S

I think it's a load of self righteous, self serving ,self congratulatory old bollox.

Feel free to include me in with the smartarses.

TAFKABO

Here ! Here !

Well said.

It's like a conversation on big brother.

I forgot to add.

Bah, humbug!

TAFKABO, or should I say John Boy, you disgust me. The woman (SOS) is trying to effect change, albeit in a small way. Nothing self-righteous about it. What is your suggestion? Everyone bitches about sectarianism, its not a bad idea to publicly show how you feel about it.

I'm getting an SOS wristband,
and an F TaFkAbO one too...

Nothing gets better by being left alone.

farley

you must have failed today's task in the big brother house.

JB
"Here ! Here !"

Where ? Where ? ;)

I vote we keep Farley on the island.

Don't begrudge TAFKABO his wee opinions. Controversy is good for thread counts. One thing does puzzle me.

TAFKABO.

The Artist Formerly Known As Billy Ocean?... Bap O'Dea?... Blue Order?

The following was borrowed from Straight Dope:

Dear Straight Dope:

When you agree with someone, do you say "Here Here!" or "Hear Hear" ? And what does it mean? What is the origin of "Here Here" or "Hear Hear"? --Tymoma195

SDSTAFF Veg replies:

The correct term is, "hear, hear!" It is an abbreviation for "hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!"

Of course, if the speaker is actually asking a question, such as "and just where do you think we should open the new strip club?" it's not hard to imagine that at least one yahoo in attendance might yell, "here, here!" But this would be the exception that proves the rule.

Alan, also it's recorded in British parliment as early as the 17th C as "hear him, hear him"

Hear ! Here !

I was just agreeing.

I'm away to the diary room to have a cry, you'se are so bitchy !

Maca,

Thanks for the info. I was pretty sure it was not "Here, Here!"

BTW, are you signing up for a wristband? Lance Armstrong has made them "cool" here in the States, even for grown men.

OK, now I'm really lost. What's a Diary Room?

Alan,
Well if Lance has one I gotta get one! :)

'drugs don't work' Lance

"Don't begrudge TAFKABO his wee opinions."

But you do begrduge me my opinions.
One only needs to read the thread in its entirety to see that.

Not that it's going to stop me expressing them.

But anyway.

When it comes to futile gestures in the name of peace, been there, done that.
I've stood in the pissing rain outside Belfast city hall, along with thousands of others in protest at sectarian murders and racist attacks.

I doubt it stopped a single one, but at least for a brief moment ther was a sense of solidarity.

But.........

There comes a point where it crosses the line and just becomes embarrasing.
for example, does anyone remember the sight of the well heeled ladies of a certain age, massed outside the Waterfront hall singing peace songs?

Sometimes somebody comes up with ths great idea for peace and I just think 'Christ, maybe the conflict wasn't so bad after all'

People don't hate hippies for nothing, you know.

TAFKABO,

People don't hate hippies for nothing, you know.

Do people get paid for it then?

If only.....

Tafkabo - It appears you feel jaded about your experience in the pissing rain. I, for one, appreciate your efforts, even though it may not have stopped anything at all. Maybe these bands won't make a difference, but maybe they will. The point is that without such demonstrations, there is a preception that NI is nothing more than a cauldron of hate and sectarianism... and that everyone is either in on it, or afraid to say anything about it.
Wearing a band on your wrist in downtown Belfast, or wherever, is similar to your demonstration in that it sends a message, but its not just for a few hours at one event. And, if it rains, you can duck into Boots or Tesco to keep dry, and still show that you are intolerant to sectarianism.

As Dougie said earlier
"S.H.A.G. M.E. bands are sure to be the talk of Ulster. I ask you, is there a better way to bring the communities together? Can't you see the public awareness posters...In a neutral chip shop Sadie and Paddy see each others bands, look into each others eyes..."
This latter part is far fetched of course, but if the bands led to even one protestant becoming friends with a catholic, buddist, jew etc. then they are a success. Many posters on this thread talk of X-community, and how is it that we are promoting it then? SOS is doing her part to promote cross-community, who knows what will happen. It is alot of pressure for her, if she doesn't get the colour scheme and soft luxurious feel right, the whole thing will be a waste.

Tafkabo, while I don't agree with your take on the SOS bands, I appreciate your saying how you feel and expressing your opinions. JB who posted below you contributes nothing to this thread, and probably not to society at all. His knowledge of and obsession with Big Brother indicates a closet addict? Sad case indeed. Diary room??

I'll wear the band, in fact, order me up two and I'll wear one for big brother fan club president john boy.

Thanks to all of you for the feedback, and I do mean all. A few children wearing the anti-bullying wristbands have become targets of bullies, and my one, up to now unspoken fear while is the unthinkable prospect of a child becoming a target of sectarianism, because he or she is wearing an anti-sectarianism band. Could it happen, if a child were to wear the band on the wrong steet, after the wrong match? I don't know. I don't know.

The eloquence and encouragement of many of you makes me want to think the bands could be worthwhile. One thing I do know, if this project IS worth pursuing, the wristbands must be free, or I'll be called far worse names than "self-righteous." Best keep on it, but I'll keep checking this thread for feedback.

Och Aye from the "We Exist" thread has said that punishment beatings are in order for anyone wearing the sos band.

Thanks, Farley.

for my next trick, I'm designing cerulean silicone wristbands bearing the message "SELF INVOLVED." All profits donated directly to slugger, but I get the first one.

maybe we need to go back to Dougie's adults only "sex sells" mantra. The cast of "Big Brother" could pose wearing sos wristbands and only sos wristbands, under the headline "Wear your S.O.S. wristband....or wear nothing at all."

Thanks again to everyone contributed their thoughts. It is too early to tell if anything will -- or even should -- come of it, but it is an interesting process.

Can't sleep...must post on slugger...

SOS you appear to have lost your drive, your motivation...

C. Will,

Have you tried some warm milk? BTW, it's only 9:30 here in the Eastern USA.

Can't sleep.....must read posts on slugger.......

Can sleep, but won't ... must go watch TV with wife.......

C. William, I'm still pursuing this. THe keenest collectors and wearers of wristbands seem to be born between approximately 1993 and 2001, so it is VERY important to me to consider all sides.

The blue and green "Say No to Sectarianism" bands Old Firm did were an enormous success....I am assuming the blue was for Scotland and green for Ireland, they look great.....

There was also a Welsh teacher that designed beaded bracelets with all the colours of the rainbow and a white bead in the center, as a symbol against sectarianism when there was a backlash against a couple of her Muslim students after 9/11....I respect that message so much.

So far the only consensus is on the importance custom molded silicone. Mackers "Scrub Out Sectarianism" message also a hit....

Good to know someone else is losing sleep over this, C. Will. THanks for the support, I needed it.

SOS - thanks for all your hard work, it appears that you are doing this the right way...even checking the demographics!! Great!

I really think that even our old mate TAFKABO is going to come around, I see him softening up already. Underneath his scrooge-like exterior, is a soft-hearted individual who will wear the band. Check me off for one band in TAFies name.

They could be sold for money if the proceeds went to a chartitable group. One idea might be therapy for JB's addiction and to coax him out of the diary room.

SOS, you are great. I smell a nobel prize in the air...

whisht, C. William...we are one step ahead of the backlash, at best...

"I really think that even our old mate TAFKABO is going to come around, I see him softening up already. Underneath his scrooge-like exterior, is a soft-hearted individual who will wear the band. Check me off for one band in TAFies name."

Tell you what.

Instead of wristbands, why not introduce tight fitting rubber neckbands.
Any colour you like, any slogan you want.
I'd gladly pay for yours.

Glad you are still trolling TAFy...a bit viscous but actually gave me a good laugh. Good one.

Although in this case it should be some kind of silicon band to restrict the appendages from typing the keypad.

Trolling?

ahferfuxsake, that's a bit harsh.
I just playing devils advocate, sure wouldn't it be boring as an episode of 'Give my head peace' if we all sat around agreeing with each other and talking about fluffy kittens.

"Although in this case it should be some kind of silicon band to restrict the appendages from typing the keypad."

Well, intitally I had thought that a rubber band around the neck would restrict the oxygen supply to the brain, closing down that particular organ and making it difficult to post.
Unfortunately, a quick look over the threads has revealed that numerous regulars seem to have mastered the art of posting with minimal brain activity.

T-Kabo you are watching too many bondage DVDs with rubber neck bands and all sorts. There are other threads you can visit for that type of activity

hallion 24-7

You seem to very up to date on the whole bondage scene ????

Hallion.

The internet is a big place and as an adult, I'm fully aware of the depth and breadth of specialised entertainment sites available.

But, I've yet to see a site that provides the sort of masochistic pleasure one gets from Slugger, on a non paying basis.

TAFKABO
I know it's my penance.

As much as I loath your opinions, I love your answers. I imagine you have a career as a writer. I hate myself for loving slugger...

That comment was for you TAFy

William - once you get to know me I'm sure you'll loathe my opinions too ;o)

You are a good man bertie, will you be wearing the sos band?

William,

You may come to consider this a hasty assessment but thanks all the same.

I don’t know what I feel about the SOS wristband idea. I’m not really into wristbands. I find myself able to identify with both your enthusiasm and TAFKABO’s cynicism. There are so many things I would like to make a stand on and yet I am always suspicious of gestures. I don’t know that sectarianism, as corrosive as it is, is the key issue. I want to stamp out terrorism, appeasement, cruelty, dangerous lack of awareness on the part of the medical profession of trauma and of neurological conditions, mediocrity in education and in the management and provision of public services, young women being so insecure and so desperate to register their existence on the planet, that they present a grotesquely over-sexualised version of themselves on reality TV, the suicide epidemic ………

And then there is the state of my hedge and the fact that I keep forgetting to pay my mastercard bill…..

Where do I start?

I would be weighed down if I was to wear a wristband for all I wanted to sign up to.

Having said all that, the one place I would be interested in wearing one would be at a football match supporting the NI team.

It’s been a trying week :o(

Hi Bertie - I'm with you on all of the above. The medical system is way behind when dealing with conditions of the brain...the symptoms of which are often dismissed as psychological in nature. the old pull yourself up by the bootsrtaps type thing. Although there has been great research developments in brain related conditions, it has not translated into clinical differences.
Hope you have a better week coming up. Only a couple of more weeks to go before we get 2 chances to see if NI can score a goal :))
In the meantime, there are some good laughs here on slugger. Did you catch the remarks on the old provo check points by Dougie on the Loyalist Rioting thread? Good crack.
Anyway, take care this week. SOS band or no, its still good to have you on the thread.

so much brown nosing

Slugger is no fun when people are civil to each other , eh Rasta?

Cheers William,

I have cheered up considerably after finding the following gem

http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/forumdisplay.php?f=45

It's way off topic but if you are interested in neurological conditions,this should raise a smile.

There has been a lot of debate about whether one of the characters on Big Brother has Aspergers Syndrome, which is a neuro-divergent condition, along with dyspraxia, dyslexia, ADD etc. Not having any of these conditions makes you neuro-typical (NT). Someone has started a thread specultating about whether another of the BB housemates had NT. The funniest thing is those poster who haven't quite clicked and are even defending him against the notion that he has NT.

Just a quick update. Those crazy kids are at it again!

Check out Help from across the divide aids church clean-up in today's Irish Independent.