More from PA

Robin is blogging it too

I suppose some of Blair's useful idiots will be saying this has nothing to do with Iraq.

And the Nosemonkey. Looks like one of the bombers has been taken to hospital.

"I suppose some of Blair's useful idiots will be saying this has nothing to do with Iraq."

I strongly suggest people read Norman Geras' excellent contribution in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1532738,00.html) .
As for myself, I am too busy worry about how to live in this city now its "infidel" civilian population now seems ripe for righteous slaughter.

Sorry for typos above. Shaking with anger.

Hackney is a strange place to target infidels.

As for myself, I am too busy worry about how to live in this city now its "infidel" civilian population now seems ripe for righteous slaughter.

Wise up.

"Hackney is a strange place to target infidels."

I don't pretent to understand the mindset of radical Islamists (if indeed it is them who are responsible for today's excitement.) However, I would hazard a guess that the Muslim casualties they cause can be explained by them as

a) can't make an omlette without...
b) the majority of British Muslims are not "pious" (i.e. zealous) enough and are expendable

Anyway, their bombrades-in-arms in Iraq aren't too fussy about killing Muslims either

Like I say, just a guess.

YF: "Wise up."

Wise up what? Because I suggested that radical Islamists think the taking of kaffir / infidel life - including random civilian and as many as possible - is perfectly a-ok?

and c) if pious Muslims are killed, then God will look after his own in any case.

Wise up was about:

I am too busy worry about how to live in this city now

Sounds like one of those over the top things you heard after September 11th.

Don't like tube - get off your lazy backside and cycle into work. And stop melodramatising. I live here too and it's not that bad.

'Anyway, their bombrades-in-arms in Iraq aren't too fussy about killing Muslims either'

Neither it seems are British soldiers, three of whom have been charged with war crimes just this very week. But of course the bombings can't have anything to do with Iraq...

Young Fogey

We've all got a right to worry. Maybe you know Deaglan. Maybe you know that he can ride a bike. Maybe you know he doesn't work in the underground. Maybe you know the doesn't have a medical condition that would make it difficult to be trapped in a train or bus whilst there is a transport shut down in the heat of a London summer. Maybe you know that he was not closely affected by the bombs on the 7/7. Maybe you know that he hasn't been injured or lost someone in another bomb/mass disaster.

Even if none of these things apply or that there is no other specific reason for him to be concerned. He still has a right to be.

I'm glad for you that you are not too worried but I also hope that it doesn't get "that bad". We can't really predict how bad it will get.

YF:

You're becoming uncharacteristically brittle recently. Try and leave off the personal stuff.

Sorry for being "melodramatic" and "over the top" YF - didn't realise I was offending your Blitz spirit.

OK, maybe I am being "over-the-top". But having attempted mass murder on the Tube can do that to a bloke.

If you don't find the prospect of random, no-warning bombs which are intended to kill as many civilians as humanly possible then ye are made of sterner stuff than me. Fair play.

Hi Millie:

"Neither it seems are British soldiers, three of whom have been charged with war crimes just this very week. But of course the bombings can't have anything to do with Iraq..."

Nobody is denying that many people, Muslim and non-Muslim, are still utterly disgusted by the Iraq war. But not everyone who opposes the Iraq war shows it by blowing themselves to pieces while surrounded by civlians of every nationality and religion on their way to work.

What is wrong is wrong.

"Neither it seems are British soldiers, three of whom have been charged with war crimes just this very week. But of course the bombings can't have anything to do with Iraq..."

Millie, if you cite a single war in history in which individual soldiers haven't murdered anyone then you have a valid criticism. Until then it is best to judge the British Army on how it deal's with those accused of murder. These soldiers are being prosecuted so I would say it is doing the right thing, wouldn't you?

And as for the war in Iraq and bombs in London the scum who planted them don't have an excuse. I also don't think our foreign policy should be constrained by these terrorists. If Orthodox Christians had bombed London during the Kosovo campaign do you think we should have capitulated to their demands?

Having known YF from long, glorious days at the Politburo (we often shared opinions on crop rotation), (a) although he loves London, he has lived and grew up in one of the roughest spots in Belfast for the majority of his life and knows pretty well what "attempted mass murder" amounts to, having encountered it at close quarters, and (b) like many of us who read Slugger did, he is reacting to this "everybody panic and scream" frenzy that some people seem to be coming out with, with the detachment that is really essential to deal with this matter rationally.

The terrorists want us to panic and drive day to day life to a standstill. Like we did in NI (and, cliched as it sounds, like they did in London during the blitz) we all have to show them that life goes on.

"Like we did in NI ....

Pearse Jordan was shot-dead by the RUC 25th November 1992 on the Falls Road Belfast. Pearse Jordan was driving alone along the Falls Road when the car in which he was travelling was rammed from behind by one of a number of RUC covert vehicles that had been following him. A second RUC car cut across his path blocking any possible escape. Several armed RUC men jumped from their vehicles and took up positions. Eyewitness reports told of how Pearse seemed dazed from the impact and as he exited the car he was shot three times without warning in the back falling to the ground.

Plain clothes RUC members immediately surrounded him. It was reported that he was repeatedly kicked. An ambulance arrived and took Pearse to the nearby RVH. He died within a couple of hours.

Immediately following the incident the RUC, in a number of press briefings, told the media that they had attempted to stop a car carrying a bomb and that gloves, mask and a gun had also been recovered from the car. They also said that bomb-making material had been found in a house nearby. This was false. No gun, bomb, mask or gloves were found. And there was no bomb-making material found nearby. Pearse was driving a vehicle which had earlier been taken but which was unreported. But the misinformation fed into a media frenzy that took almost a week to clear. So too did a second RUC statement that claimed Pearse had a previous conviction for possession of explosives. This was untrue. Once again after a deliberate shoot-to-kill incident truth became the next casualty.

we all have to show them that life goes on."

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711639.stm)

Mark Whitby (eyewitness) said: "I was sitting on the train... I heard a load of noise, people saying, 'Get out, get down'.

"I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun.

"He half tripped... they pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him," he told BBC News 24.

"As [the suspect] got onto the train I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox.

"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him, [they] couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand.

"He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him."

T'is right Comrade Stalin, life goes on, Summary Execution ... Then and Now !!!

The clinical brutality and impulsive viciousness of the British State laid bare for all to see ... leading no doubt to a further swelling in the ranks of the "home bred" Islamic Martyrs.

What does this say for those of us hoping that the British State will somehow come good here in the North of Ireland and genuinely facilitate a process of conflict resolution with a mindset like this?

Tomas

"The clinical brutality and impulsive viciousness of the British State laid bare for all to see ..."

2 shootings 13 years apart dont warrant the description "clincial brutality and impulsive visousness"

Afternoon Jocky

Apologies I perhaps ought to have elaborated. These are but two examples in a long often horrendous litany of such British State killings up to and including their murderous intent in Iraq ...

Ireland: http://www.relativesforjustice.com/shoottokill/shoottokill.htm
Iraq and elsewhere: http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1026-24.htm

Your point raises a question of scale that might be lost on the bereaved families of those killed and maimed and indeed those who might be prompted to extract revenge

(http://www.terrortracker.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=112&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)

regards

Tomas

Unfortunately Tom, it is all about scale, because scale is a good indicator of intent.

Again despite the links provide I dont think that warrants the description of clincical brutality and impulsive vicousness of the British state. You are overstating the case.

As it appears in the papers todya it looks the the security services made a mistake on Friday, and a Brazilian electrician was shot dead by police. So what now? do you try the police involved for murder? how do you take into account the mitigating circumstances? How could they be tried by a jury of their peers as I doubt they will be many qualified to judge their actions. Its easy to cricitices when you have no repsonsibility but these people are responsible for our safety, what if they hadnt shot and he was a bomber? would that have been better? That would also have helped the terorists recruitment drive.

If armed police are guilty and sent to jail, I doubt there would be many turning up for service if they know one mistake in a split second could mean prison. What then?

And no I am not giving them a free reign to shoot whoever they want but they are hardly doing that at the moment. This was an unfortunate accidaent and the lessons will be learnt from it.

The issue of state collosion, Army killings etc is for another discussion.

What I am trying to say its your description of the British State simply isnt accurate. what do you make of other states? are you equally damning in your judgement of them?

All this is of no consequence to the poor guy and his family but this discussion by its nature is not a place for sentiment.

Up late tonight Jocky, thanks for the considered reply.

How could they be tried by a jury of their peers as I doubt they will be many qualified to judge their actions.

In my opinion anyone who places a value on human life is qualified to judge their actions. These people had this guy under surveillence for the better part of an hour and could have arrested him at any time. They choose instead to let him go about his business until he entered a tube station. There was no mistake in the action jocky, clinical, professional and brutal in its execution ... the state was sending out a message !!!

The mistake was not in the killing but in the identity of the victim.

The fact is simply that the state killed an unarmed, innocent very frightened person and this is deplorable.

Its easy to cricitices when you have no repsonsibility but these people are responsible for our safety,

That these people are responsible for our (ha,ha) safety places an even greater onus on them to preserve our lives no/ that could have been anyone and the cheif constable has said there could be more innocents killed Jocky, that could be you, me or anyone literally.

what if they hadnt shot and he was a bomber? would that have been better?

If he was a bomber and he did get shot then its part of the games these people play. You live by the sword you die by the sword ... no arguement here ... its an occupational hazzard. The fact is that he wasnt jocky, he was innocent like so many others the British have murdered. My perspective is informed, you might say coloured, by my experiences as an Irish Republican.

"The fact is simply that the state killed an unarmed, innocent very frightened person and this is deplorable."

This is, indeed, the human side of this terrible act. Look at other threads to see how this story was spun and how the violent death of a totally innocent persons death was whooped and cheered as a member of the Jihad having received "justice."

If we take that attitude to violence, then the terrorists are indeed winning. In the case the presumption of innocence until proved otherwise was the correct as well as the moral attitude to have taken. I hope a few people are feeling ashamed of their initial reactions to the news of this killing.

Of course everyone places a value on human life but very few are ever in a position where they have to make the call between taking one life to potentially save others. I think there has to be some acknowledgement of the difficult circumstances that the police are operating in.

My point being what would the reaction have been if he had blown himself as the police attempted to restrain him.

It could be me, you or anyone but the fact is we are more likely to be killed crossing the road (how many thousand a year is it?) than shot dead by the police (how many a year?

i suppose the arguement comes down to the relationship between the individual and the state.

More facts emerge: the man had boarded a bus before reaching the Tube station. Had he been a suicide bomber, why was he not apprehended before boarding the bus?

The guy was a Brazilian: imagine if he had genuinely been a British Muslim. How much would that have done to turn Muslims to helping the authorities catch the REAL bombers? Those bombers are still out there, somewhere and the authorities have demonstrated what "justice" they may expect...