Latest statistics continue to show that a Northern Catholic is twice as likely to be unemployed as a Protestant. Surely this is more reflective of which community has an equality deficit that the appointment of Catholics to the Equality Commission.

Brian Boru

The latest EC research said your statistic is no use as an indicator of equality of opportunity.

The report also argued that equality of opportunity has basically been achieved in the labour market and differentials were being steadily and consistently moving to the appropriate balance.

It also highlighted a number of trends in the Labour market that if they persisted would end up in an imbalance towards catholics in the Labour market ie the volume of Protestant students who leave NI to studty and do not return.

NI has and is changing. Time for a few attitudes to catch up.

Time also to recognise that Equality is about more than catholics and protestants. There is a huge job to be done for people with a disability, women and minority ethnics. The Equality Commission needs support to build a fairer society for those groups as well as our two main communities.

It would be nice to see all Equality spokespeople from all of the parties making that point clear to the public.

Brian Boru : "Latest statistics continue to show that a Northern Catholic is twice as likely to be unemployed as a Protestant.".

Do you the corresponding figiures for the Republic?

Is he the best person for the job?

Well, he was appointed to a highly sensitive position, so I think we can assume he was.

If on the other hand you don't believe that he was, and you are or know someone who competed and was unsuccessful, then appeal, or have them appeal. Otherwise, wait and see what his performance is like.

The newsletter is vehemently anti catholic.it begrudges catholics having any civil rights and feels loyalism is under seige by any more equality for catholics

"The newsletter is vehemently anti catholic.it begrudges catholics having any civil rights and feels loyalism is under seige by any more equality for catholics"

Has some republican bought some software that just perpetually produces crap like this over different threads?

the newsletter hardly promotes catholic views does it?

Alan

I agree but nobody gives a toss about disabilities. Maybe if the disabled had a terrorist wing.........

The software seems to have a preference for fsmail accounts too.

Keithm,
"Do you the corresponding figiures for the Republic?"

Protestants had 40% of the Irish nation's wealth in 1960 Keithm.

Are you another person who wants Irish Protestants to leave their jobs as lawyers in the Law Courts to walk the Garda beat in the name of "equality"?

Collins is from neither community in the north. He is from the south and his religion is no more relevent than Peter Hain's or John DeChastelain.

The reason we have so many outsiders running our affairs is because we have proved incapable of running them ourselves and whinging like the Newletter's shows we have a long way to go.

Good luck Mr. Collins in bringing equality to a society where a major newspaper thinks you shouldn't get the job because you are a Catholic.

Welcome to our world.

Henry

"a major newspaper thinks you shouldn't get the job because you are a Catholic."

Where does it say that in the editorial?

The majority population need a sense of legitimacy too. Is the gradual erosion of their esteem via politically motivated (or do I assume far too much guile/competence on the part of the NIO doves?) appointments a price worth paying for the desperately hoped for Shinner buy-in?

We'll be left with a gangster society policed by 'rights' mentality quangos. No good for anybody.

fair-deal

If you can't translate this then you're not from the north

at a time when Government should be encouraging greater engagement from unionists with the Human Rights and Equality Commissions they are appointing people who are unlikely to command the confidence of the majority community in Northern Ireland.

So it doesn't say it. It says something different which you 'decipher' to mean what you want it to maintain a sectarian stereotype of Unionism. Ok

fair_deal

a sectarian stereotype of Unionism

I didn't mention unionism. I was talking about the Newsletter. I'm sure they don't speak for all of Unionism but their own attitude is quite clear and quite disgusting.

Boxexile,
"The majority population need a sense of legitimacy too"

But you can only earn legitimacy through moral authority not through numbers.

I see British Airways are getting a Southerner to run the company from September and in the Irish Republic, nobody would ever have an issue with an outsider getting a high-profile post.

In fact the overwhelming majority would welcome it. New ways and all that.

Giving out about somebody simply because they are not one of your own is one of the worst kinds of moral bankrupcy.

George:

Unfortunately for you there are about 900,000 moral reasons stuck inconveniently in the north est of the island. denying their innate legitimacy is the worst form of intellectual poverty;)

Henry

Nice try at a dodge. The quote you used to back your argument uses the term 'unionists'

fair_deal

It doesn't.

Oh yes it does

"when Government should be encouraging greater engagement from unionists with the Human Rights and Equality Commissions"

fair_deal

That's a quote form a unionist politician in a unionist newspaper. If that promotes a sectarian stereotype of Unionism then you should take it up with them.

Henry

No I'd rather take up the sectarianism with the culprit.

1. A claim was made of sectarianism in the NL editorial
2. A quote was asked for to exemplify this
3. A quote was provided that made no reference to the religion of Bob Collins or religious communities here.
4. When this was pointed out it was implied it was 'code'
5. This 'decoding' was challenged as sectarian stereotyping
6. The response, denial, this went so far as to misrepresent the quote that was used in the first place and then trying to shift the blame back to the NL.

It can be easy to over-egg things especially on a quick-fire debate blog as this. If that had been admitted fine. This is NI there will be plenty of opportunities for such a claim of sectarianism and it to be true. Instead the persistence in denial leads me heartily depressed.

I object to the Newsletters use of the term "majority population."

If they mean Unionists then they're wrong because only about a third of NI adults vote that way.

If they mean Protestants then they're wrong too because in the last census only 46% of the population claimed to be Protestant.

And before anyone mentions the community background figures, shouldn't the Newsletter repsect the wishes of those who have been deemed Protestant by Community Background by NISRA, despite their refusal to nominate themselves so, not to be lumped in with the rest to form a spurious majority population?

Impractical Observer

1. The News Letter quote uses the term majority community. It was bogexile who used the phrase majority population
2. At the recent Westminster elections Unionist parties gained 51.8% of the vote while nationalists parties gained 42% of the vote. Hence the use of the term 'majority community' has a clear statistical basis.

fair_deal

If you can count up to six then you can see the sectarian sickness in that editorial. We already have an exponent of pedantic ping-pong on this board and your efforts are just as unconvincing.

Your guttersnipe accusations of sectarianism against me are disgusting and should be deleted.

I am perfectly content for Mick to review this thread and my comments on it.

I have to agree with Jo on this. If the Equality Commission can't be trusted to select an impartial leader, what choice do the rest of us have?

Let's face it, they must have anticipated a Unionist backlash against this appointment. It leads me to believe that the selection of Bob Collins must have been worth the aggro. Either that or he was the only applicant.

Whatever, I'm sure Collins had to undergo substantial background checks to ensure he would be suitable for the position. I wish him well.

fair_deal

My apologies, I never meant to use the word population, I meant to say community at the end.

And on your second point, the 'clear' statistical basis from the Westminster elections is that the Unionist parties gained much less than half the number of votes of the electorate in total.

The 'community' is not solely comprised of the 'voters'.

Impractical Observer

No need to apologise for a simple mistake.

Your first post had merit. Majority, minority are terms that can be bandied about too quickly and presented as fait accompli's when they not always are.

Discourse here can also present communities and views too rigid and monolithic. "The nationalist community.... this" " The unionist community..... that" ALL Catholics believe etc etc. Views in Ulster and Ireland can be rigid and monolithic but not always so.

On the use of the term community you can have political communities. The fact the two Unionist parties have both expressed similar sentiments lends itself to describe the frustration of exclusion from public bodies as universal across the Unionist political community.

You presented some statistics to sustain your point to undermine the use of the term majority I offered a statistic to show how it can be sustained.

I would also agree with your point on community background. However, the organisation under debate the Equality Commission is one that pushes the perception of community background. They even 'residualise' members of minority ethnic groups born here into Protestant and Catholic.

These posts were last held by Protestants and the Northern Catholics didn't moan about that. I happen to believe that Brice Dickson executed his role fairly. I am a southerner but I have been told my someone a few years back that the Northern Unionists can't quite seem to be able to accept full equality for the other community. The fact that Catholics are 2 times as likely in NI to be unemployed is suggestive of this, along with how the executive was torne down a number of times, not just recently, but also in 1972 regarding Sunningdale. The opposition to the PSNI quotas - under which it will still take 15 years before Catholics are represented fairly - is further evidence of this.

In answer to someone's question - No I have not seen Southern equivalent statistics, but I do know that we never have Protestants and Catholics throwing petrol bombs at each other in Donegal or other areas with large Protestant minorities.

Brian Boru

I believe Keith M's question about the statistic was because you will find the statistic in the RoI is remarkably similar to the one in NI. No one suggests there has been systematic discrimination against Catholics in the RoI based on that particular statistic but in NI it is.

If I am wrong he can correct me.

1. The make-up of the previous NIHRC and EC were criticised by Unionists as unrepresentative. The fact they Chief Commissioners were Protestant did not stop criticism of these bodies or in Brice Dickson's case the individual.
2. As regards the new NIHRC, the political track record of the Chief Commissioner was criticised, not her perceived religious background but as well the complete imbalance of the entire commission was criticised. The media focused in on complaints about McWilliams but the objections went broader than that. Unionism has criticised the make up of the NIHRC and EC on both occassions regardles of whether appointees were Catholic or Protestant. Unionism can be sectarian, it can also be rational. Unionists can have rational complaints about public appointments that have nothing to do with sectarianism.

"I do know that we never have Protestants and Catholics throwing petrol bombs at each other in Donegal or other areas with large Protestant minorities."

In the Civil War period there were plenty of burnings shootings etc of Protestants. In Donegal low-level sectarian intimidation continues and it tends to be one way.

fair_deal

"Unionists can have rational complaints about public appointments that have nothing to do with sectarianism".

Yes, indeed they can and should but this isn't one of them.

Wischer

I kndly remind you of the helpful suggestion Mick made.

"Wichser,

You might get a lot further if you did do a little digging of your own and came up with some evidence to support your various assertions."

Completely amazing (but unamazing) that we get from the Equality Commission to the experience of Donegal Protestants during the early 1920s....how many degrees of separation again? :)

Jo

I tend to find some southern denial of the sectarian campaign that underlaid the broader Civil War in the republic.

I also remind you of the second part of the comment

"In Donegal low-level sectarian intimidation continues and it tends to be one way."

fair_deal

The difference is my assertions are not opinions masquerading as facts, my post here is not so much an opinion as a readily observable fact...unless you can persuade me otherwise of course mate. For example, would the professional none fides of the appointee be in question if he was a Free Presbyterian for instance ? It's you who ought to heed Mick's rather mumsy and unnecessary 'advice' if anyone does.

Wischer

Mick can speak for himself but the impression I got from the comment was I offered a number of points and did some research to back up what I said. While you chose to offer nothing and continue to do so. You say I am wrong then do more than tell me show why he is qualified.

"For example, would the professional none fides of the appointee be in question if he was a Free Presbyterian for instance ?"

1. I have never once raised Bob Collins' religion once as the basis of a objection nor has any Unionist politician that I have seen speak on the issue. In anything I have read of him there has been no mention of his religion.
2. If this Free P person only had experience in broadcasting then yes I would question their appointment as chief commissioner.
If the Free P person had no particular knowledge or expertise of equality issues then yes I would question their appointment as chief commissioner.
If the Free P person had been involved in the production of say the Protestant Telegraph then yes I would question their appointment as chief commissioner.
If the person was shown to have a close working relationship only with one political community then yes I would question their appointment as chief commissioner.

fair deal

what research did you do to back up your assertion that anti-protestant sectarianism persists in donegal today?

"You say I am wrong then do more than tell me show why he is qualified"

I have already said that I have no strong view on the appointment either way but in absence of any evidence that he didn't meet the selection criteria (which you still haven't manage to establish or measure his credentials against!) more cloesly than other candiadtes, which you have singularly failed to do, is there any reason to doubt that he wasn't. Even what you say is true and he does enjoy a better relationship with one community than another what has that got to do with his suitability for the job ? It is not a community relations post, after all. Based on what yopu have actually said it is difficult to escape the conclusion that there is a relationship between your anti-republicanism and your opposition to this man's appointment based on perception and conjecture, not the facts.

Well ?

WTF

This thread relates to an appointment in the North and inequality in Northern Ireland, let's not go down the side-roads here please, that issue has been discussed on other threads on this site to death.

WTF

1. I occassionally visit friends in Donegal.
2. I organised a number of events in Donegal in a previous job for Protestant communities there. At one event local Catholic youth kept disrupting it, at another there were cars damaged.
3. A friend is a historical researcher and he conducted research into the experience of Border Protestants. He kindly allowed me to read the transcripts of his interviews and some of the newspaper clippings and official documents he had.

fair_deal

Just out of interest, why did you only organise events for Protestants ?

The job entailed organising Ulster-Scots events. It was done on a reactive basis, whoever asked for them got them. During my time in the post events were organised in the full range of communities - protestant catholic minority ethnic etc.

In Donegal the only ones who asked for them were protestant groups. There was no bar to others attending whoever turned up was free to come in and the publicity was beyond the protestant community.

If memory serves invites were sent to local dignitaries (who would be from a Catholic background) for at least one of the events but every single one of them was apparently busy that night.

fair_deal

Maybe you did a poor job of explaining what the event was about, most people in Donegal, as elsewhere, wouldn't understand what U-S culture was or what it had to do with them. Did you 'British-ize' or 'Orange-ise' the event in any way ? Not to be too flippant but was there drink and eats to be had at it ?!

"wouldn't understand what U-S culture was or what it had to do with them"

Then they missed an opportunity to gain understanding and learn its relevance.

"Not to be too flippant but was there drink and eats to be had at it ?!"

It was a family event so there was no alcohol at the event but there was certainly eats. These were rural communities and I have tended to find that when any event is organised in a rural area a shortage of food is not a problem and those serving it would make Mrs Doyle of Father Ted look like an amateur.

Well I accept that however maybe your attempts to reach out to people whwo had no prior knowledge or perhaps preconceived ideas about the event, did you attampt to 'orange-ise', British-ise or "protestant-ise' the events in any way ? Did you invite represntatives from SF ?

theres an orange parade in rossnowlagh every year.its unopposed and has no restrictions placed on it.Where are the alleged donegal catholic extremists when this happens?

There was no -isation of whatever form except one event was held in a church hall but that was driven by practicality.

The 'I wouldn't go there' stuff I just don't like. I go to the Chinese new year celebrations am i to refuse unless it is held in an Orange Hall?

That said if they have a problem in accepting Orangeism, Britishness and Protestantism or anything else it may indicate they have a difficulty in coping with any difference hence an unwillingness to engage with U-S.

Local political reps were invited, can't remember what parties (it was about 6/7 years ago).

Reality check

"theres an orange parade in rossnowlagh every year.its unopposed and has no restrictions placed on it.Where are the alleged donegal catholic extremists when this happens"

I wondered when a republican would make this foolish point. I just should have known it would be you, reality check. The "We allow you to walk in the arsehole of nowhere, aren't we so generous?" argument. The "You only exist and express yourself at our sufferance" argument.

Do you know why Donegal Orangeism ended up in Rossknowlagh?

Because when it lasted attempted a parade in Donegal Town they were quite literally stoned out of it. The Garda afforded them no protection that day. Rossknowlagh was their only refuge from Catholic extremists.

Does this mean that Roman Catholics are not offended by the Donegal parade? If so why do we still go. After all the only reason we go to these things is purely and simply to get up the noses of RCs. I mustn't waste valuable baiting time on this in the future.

when did this incident happen in donegal town?can you provide a website which would archive what transpired?

Wicher
I responded to a point that was made on this thread so I do think it is relevant to point out something if it illustrates a shallow argument.
and anyway, you tell me not to diverge from the thread and then do so yourself - make your mind up lad!

fair deal
points one and two are purely anecdotal. Anyone can come up with these individual personal
experiences and pass it off as research. very weak. As for point 3, can you give us some links which show some depth to this research? how many border protestants did your friend interview? did he interview catholics in the same area as well?
who commissioned this study? What type of questions were asked?

I suspect there is very little substance to your point 3, but if you can elaborate and show some actual evidence I'm open to correction

There are some references to the troubles orange parades faced on the GOLI website but someone I doubt that you'll accept that as a source.

Donegal was not alone. From an article by Gordon Lucy of the Ulster Society.

"The first Twelfth celebrations in the Irish Free State took place in 1923 at Clones (in County Monaghan). Twelfth demonstrations were resumed in County Cavan in 1924 and in 1925 in County Donegal. There were, understandably, no Twelfth demonstrations in 1922 because of the disturbed state of the country, the country being in the midst of a civil war.

Twelfth demonstrations continued in the Irish Free State in counties Cavan and Monaghan, up to 1931. They were then discontinued in those counties as a result of republican violence and intimidation at Newtowngore in County Leitrim and the Black Walk in Cootehill (County Cavan) in August 1931."

The past problems with Orange twelfth parades came up in an Irish Seanad debate where a Senator Lanigan described what happened as:

"In various counties there used
to be Orange parades which were broken up at
certain stages."

From the Democratic Dialogue website about problems at orange parades in more recent times

"In July and August 1996 small protests were mounted at returning parades in Convoy and Manorcunningham...In Convoy the local Orange lodge re-routed their parade to avoid confrontation while in August the Manorcunningham branch of the Apprentice Boys ignored the protests and walked their normal route....In March 1997 sectarian graffiti was painted in Dunkinnealy prior to a Boys Brigade parade and a similar incident occurred in Ballintra prior to the Rossnowlagh parade in July. In the first case the parade was cancelled, while in Ballintra the graffiti was painted over and the morning church parade went ahead as planned...a small crowd of demonstrators did try to stop an Orange parade in St Johnston on the Twelfth"

As suspected, all you can provide to back up your assertion that anything even approaching notable sectarianism persists in the republic today, is anecdote and weak unsubstantiated rubbish.

1&2 if there was no low-level sectarianism in Donegal as I claimed then I wouldn't be hearing stories from friends of incidents nor would I experience them first hand. If I hear young people kick doors using foul language and a range of sectarian tags and throw stones at the windows I believe I have witnessed low-level sectarian intimidation.

He conducted over eighty interviews in Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal. The research was on Border protestants so they made almost entirely those he interviewed. In addition to the interviews he conducted a thorough research of secondary sources e.g. newspapers official documents. The publisher he was conducting the research for went bust so it was not published. That is why I asked to see his research.

WTF

Not everything is available on a website. Go to a library. Take the time to read the relevant local newspapers from the time. You might learn something and maybe just maybe realise the problem of sectarianism is not the preserve of one community nor does it stop at the border.

Remind me again what happened when the OO wanted a short parade in Dublin a few years ago?

"weak unsubstantiated rubbish"

Democratic dialogue is an independent think tank. Their report of recent incidents was sourced from local papers.

I'm sure there are many who could tell far worse stories of their personal experiences of sectarianism. Its all anecdote.

Stupid hooliganism and individual instances like that you have described are to be condemned but it still doesnt prove that it is in any way widespread or a sigificant problem for society in the republic. This type of stuff isnt even a blip on the radar compared to the type of sectarianism that comes from within unionism in NI. It is not even on the same planet never mind ballpark as things like 11th night bonfires and holy cross.

I'm sure you, like most people deplore this type of thing, but what are the decent people within unionism doing to change this type of thing? Far from condemning it, you have unionist politicians trying to justify this hate as understandable.

I know this has diverged quite a bit from the original thread but I'm just trying to illustrate the hypocrisy when unionists like yourself call the republic sectarian.

1. I organised three events (in different parts of the county) at two there were sectarian problems . I had been consistently told that no problems existed.
2. I specifically said "Low-level".
3. I did not equate the problems of sectarianism in the RoI equate with NI.

Here is some evidence you may accept.

"Border protestant perspectives" commissioned with European Peace money and overseen by a steering committee that included the likes of the Equality Authority. It conducted a survey among its results are:

23 per cent of respondents conducted among Protestants living in Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan, Leitrim, Sligo and Louth, said they had experienced harassment due to their religion. This happened mostly in the workplace or within educational establishments.

'Remind me again what happened when the OO wanted a short parade in Dublin a few years ago?'

CoI refused to allow them use of their premises although the Council were willing to provide accommodation at the standard fee and the parade was called off amid a lot of unsubstantiated allegations that the parade organisers had been threatened. Whole thing was a preposterous put-up job by a discredited bunch of losers who were intent on embarrassing their own community.

Fair deal-can you reveal why in rossknowlagh itself there has been no protests or violence as such,even at the height of the drumcree disturbances?

lib2016

1. The OO were invited by the Lord Mayor of Dublin so how was it a put-up job?
2. On the threats an Irish Senator, Manning, made the following comment about the republican reaction:
"we heard the obverse of the same surly bigotry from a Sinn Fein councillor who implicitly threatened the Orange Order if they held their march in Dublin."

Also from the Irish Examiner

"GARDAÍ are investigating a campaign of threats and abuse against the Lord Mayor of Dublin, Mary Freehill, over her support for the Orange Order march down Dawson Street.
The march, which was since cancelled, was promoted by the Lord Mayor. She received abusive letters and threatening phone calls as a result.
One threatened to burn down the Mansion if she continued to support the parade.
The Lord Mayor said she was disappointed the Dublin and Wicklow District of the Orange Order felt it necessary to postpone the march on May 28, and was deeply concerned at reports that members of the Order also received threats."

From the BBC website

"Organiser Ian Cox said he had taken the action because he and fellow members of the Dublin and Wicklow Lodge had been intimidated.
He said: "Every day I get abusive letters and phone calls. It's not so bad for me because I don't have a young family, but for other members of the Lodge it was extremely worrying."
He also claimed he had been "abandoned" by the political leaders who had initially welcomed and even encouraged the march.
"We were left on our own. The people who had supported us ducked for cover. It was very cynical.
"We didn't want to cancel it. We had no choice," said Mr Cox.

3. The last time an Orange parade was held in Dublin city on July 12, 1937, it was attacked in Talbot Street, and orangemen were beaten up.

fair deal
low level sectarianism and indeed racism exists everywhere where there are mixed cultures and races.

You specifically focussed on sectariamism in the republic and I am justified in pointing out the hypocrisy of you and other unionists in highlighting this low level sectarianism when you are doing far too little to challenge the much more serious sectarianism that comes from within your own community.

1. Rossnowlagh is a very small place that is geared for tourism. I expect it welcomes the influx of a large number of people every year.
2. It has a population that can exercise tolerance something others in Donegal and elsewhere could learn from.

They have realised that our walking past their houses wearing collarettes, with bands playing and Orange banners and flags on display has not reduced them to second class citizens nor has it denied them their own identity.

Maybe you should visit them reality check they could maybe help your personal development

WTF

"low level sectarianism and indeed racism exists everywhere where there are mixed cultures and races"

Thank you for now accepting that my claim of low-level sectarian intimidation does in fact exist. I try to avoid making wild claims on here that is why I was careful in the words I chose to describe the problems of sectarianism in Donegal.

"I am justified in pointing out the hypocrisy of you and other unionists in highlighting this low level sectarianism when you are doing far too little to challenge the much more serious sectarianism that comes from within your own community."

This is a nice attempt to re-define what your posts on this thread were about. They were much more about attempting to deny to the straightforward assertion you know accept.

However you raise a serious and legitimate point. As regards sectarianism in Northern Ireland, none of us do enough to tackle it. Some deny its existence. Some present it as the preserve of one community. Some try to justify it. All of these perpetuate it.

fair_deal

The reason why the march organisers were 'abandoned' was because of the extremely questionable nature and source of those 'anonymous' threats. The CoI was the first organisation to catch on that the whole thing was a put-up job and refused the use of its premises but the Council did offer the the rent of a hall.

This goes down with the Silent Valley bombs, the great Castlereagh raid and a thousand other hoaxes that seemed like a good idea at the time. 'Too clever by half' seems like the right phrase.

lib2016

1. The OO gets condemned for not engaging. It responds positively to an invitation from the Lord Mayor of Dublin to attend the uveiling of a plaque to mark the foundation of the GOLI. Is it possible for the OO to do anything right?
2. OO members and others receive threats. SF reps make implicit threats in the media. Was the SF rep an OO entrist in the republican movement?
3. "extremely questionable nature and source of those 'anonymous' threats' - Do you now many people who make threatening calls that give their names? Do you know many people who write threatening letters with return addresses? The Garda took them seriously.
4. Not all CoI congregations like the OO especially those who disagree with the OO's stance on ecumenism. Or maybe the CoI didn't want to get threats too? Or maybe they didn't like the idea of letters threatening to burn down their buildings?
5. Dublin has a history of anti-Orange violence. In 1937 did the OO organise the mob that attacked them?

"This goes down with the Silent Valley bombs, the great Castlereagh raid and a thousand other hoaxes that seemed like a good idea at the time. 'Too clever by half' seems like the right phrase."

I have tried to be patient with republican posters on here about the OO but this bullshit really is getting beyond believe.

1. The OO did not plant the Silent Valley bombs.
2. The OO has never been a line of enquiry in the theft of documentation from Castlereagh holding centre.
3. Republicans/Nationalists/Catholics are capable of sectarianism. Republicans/Nationalists/Catholics are capable of making sectrain threats.
Republicans/Nationalists/Catholics are capable of sectarian violence. No community is immune to sectarianism. If you want to deny this then fine help condemn us all to the continuation of sectarianism for at least another few generations.
4. "a thousand other hoaxes" - why be rational when you can exaggerate?

fair_deal

The history of the 'Orange State' and its supporters has been full of silly hoaxes and plots designed to show that Republicanism and the Orange Order are equally bigoted. It's not true although republicanism has certainly suffered from it's 'Defender' wing and their successors whom I'm happy to condemn. I don't defend republican assholes organising a provocative march in Ballymena and if you want to defend Orange assholes in Dublin I'll leave you to it.

This is and has not been merely an attack on Orangeism which I recognise has sincere and decent adherents. I'm simply pointing out that if they want to continue to prosper they'll have to live in the real world.

Oh! nearly forgot!

1/ The Government and paramilitary police force of the Orange State certainly did attempt to blame republicans for the Silent Valley bombs even though it was widely known that Orange extremists were responsible for them

2/The remnants of that same extremist Orange paramilitary policeforce do indeed allege that republicans mysteriously entered a wellguarded military base, had the knowledge including even the codes required to acess closed areas and to get specific security files, and did all this on camera without being caught.

3/ Republicans/Nationalists/Catholics are not synonymous terms despite sectarian Orange attempts to claim that they are

4/ In using the phrase 'a thousand other hoaxes' I was guilty of minimising the Orange talent for plotting. That's what secret societies do after all.

Like English football hooligans and their cries of "Who me, Guv?" you're protesting Orange innocence rather too much. Hope the get-together with your Catholic fellow-bigots in Ballymena goes well.

As you say even the CoI is in retreat from the Orange Order and its unionist political platform. In fact everyone from the British Conservative Party to the NI electorate is doing the same. Maybe it might be a good thing to re-examine your message.

1. The OO WAS INVITED. You claim the OO got mileage out of being forced to abandon it. The OO would have got HUGE mileage from a successful parade in Dublin. Dublin was not an isolated incident the pattern was repeated when an Orange Lodge was invited to a St Patrick's Day parade in Cork then the same sectarian bullshit blew up.
2. I also notice you have shifted the goalposts. First it was the OO that did things now it is this thing called the 'Orange State'. Poor lib2016 did you make a wild claim you couldn't back up? Forced to try and do some twisting and turning in a vain search for justification?
(Heres me thinking the Orange Free State was in South Africa or have they changed its name yet).
3. As for losing support sorry to disappoint but the OO has just had its most successful Twelfth in years and the sectarianism of republicans was available for all to see at Ardoyne.
4. Synonmous terms - All three terms are highly co-existent and not a beagle's gowl off co-terminus. But fair enough then I will take on board criticism:
Republicans, Nationalists or Catholics are capable of sectarianism. Republicans, Nationalists or Catholics are capable of making sectrain threats.
Republicans, Nationalists or Catholics are capable of sectarian violence.
4. Sectarianism is not restricted to dissident republicanism after all the RM are campaigning for the release of a person responsible for nine sectarian murders.
5. Nowhere on this thread have I said Orangeism is perfect. Nowhere have I argued Orangeism, Unionism or Protestantism are free of sectarianism.
6. The RM is perfectly capable of proving itself is sectarian without any help from the OO.
7. Thousands of examples yet you only provide two. One of which many blame republicans for, including the Irish government (Bertie Ahern is on the books of an Orange Lodge in Dublin but the OO don't like to talk about it. Wink. Wink.). The Columbia trips? That was the OO trying to start lodges out their among FARC. The OO did the Northern Bank job didn't we? Orange banners are getting awful dear these days. Tell you what Lib2016 I'll let you into one of the OO's secrets as you like vast conspiracy theories (just keep it between you and me) - the Area 51 aliencraft is buried underneath Clifton Street Orange Hall.

Im dissapointed the orange march didn't go ahead in dublin it would have shown unionists that the republic is not anti-british or anti-orangeman.

The authorities were maybe worried violence would result, but ask yourself fair_deal is it suprising when?

1 this organisations leader hates the republic and the irish culture, nationalists and catholics ( a large portion of the population of this country)

2 This organisation insists that it can march wherever it wishes, even in areas where their march causes violent protests.

Marching down the main street of the capital city of ireland with union jacks held high and no tricolour present, is seen as demonstration of political strength cellebrating how they won the war, why dont they march with both flags!and celebrate their ancestry with respect to all the people in this country.

if not then:

its like
nazis dressed in their full gear waving swasticas and singing nazi songs about how they brought france to its knees during the war while parading down the chaps-elyses in paris, and believe me they would be mobbed to death in 5 secs!

so thats it, the ball is firmly in the orangemans court, He must first improve the image of the organisation i.e. catholics not allowed, and we walk where we want attitude.
The oo must start dialogue with residents groops as done in derry, and the oo there ought to be commended for their efforts, its a pitty the rest of the oo and its leader are so against dialogue- time to change!

Hotdogx

"the orange march didn't go ahead in dublin it would have shown unionists that the republic is not anti-british or anti-orangeman."

As it couldn't go following threats does that not demonstrate that the state ot a section of the population does have problems with expressions of Britishness or orangeism?

"The authorities were maybe worried violence would result, but ask yourself fair_deal is it suprising when?"

People don't like me so they are allowed to attack me.

"Marching down the main street of the capital city of ireland with union jacks held high and no tricolour present, is seen as demonstration of political strength cellebrating how they won the war, why dont they march with both flags!and celebrate their ancestry with respect to all the people in this country."

1. The OO can parade if it it displays the symbols we tell it too and does what we want - not very accepting of difference?
2. The tricolour was the flag of a state established in 1921. None of my family lived in that state so I don't see how I am disrespecting my ancestry.
3. The parade would have been the OO accepting an invitation nothing more nothing less. If you read some deeply hidden hegemonic undertones that is up to you.

1. Which leader of the organisation are you referring to when you say "hates the republic and the irish culture, nationalists and catholics "?
2. "march causes violent protests" - a section of a community reacts at the sight of a different community through violence but its the non-violent people who have the problems? Hmmm.

My family lost one member and another was left maimed in the fight against Nazism. Your comparison is utterly disgusting.

fair_deal

I don't totally accept the comparision, if that is what it is, with Nazism however the OO is right wing, it's supremacist, it's undemocratic, it's societally dangerous and evil.

It's not about how they behave which is so wrong, it's what they believe in. For as long as the OO exists there will never be peace here. The facat that some of the people who oppose the OO are nationalists bigots (who I also oppose) doesn't take away from the fact of the matter - opposition to the OO is a minimum (which is not to say sufficient) condition for qualification as an opponent of the sectarian hatred which has characterised public life in Northern Ireland since before the inception of the State. It is not possible for one to be a member or supporter of the OO and be anti-sectarian.

Once again we see the mote of Southern sectarianism (if there is such a thing) being used to deflect attention from the beam of Northern anti-Catholic sectarianism.
Once again Barnshee makes a strong case for his expulsion from Slugger.

Wichser

Please define sectarian and justify in relation to that definintion - "It is not possible for one to be a member or supporter of the OO and be anti-sectarian."

... and we all have stones in our hands!

Wischer

Right Wing - The OO has ended its relationship with a political party. Its members are and always have been free to vote for whoever they wish.
Supremacist - Not once at any OO meeting or event has the OO told me I am superior to anyone else.
Undemocratic - The OO has a highly democratic and devolved structure. In its lodge every member has a vote on every issue. In terms of parades the OO asks for its members right of assembly, association and expression to be recognised. If asking for basic democratic standards is undemocratic then you have a very warped sense of democracy.
It's societally dangerous and evil - This is demonisation, plain and simple. I don't hate anyone. I don't hurt anyone. I don't kill anyone but the OO and thousands like me are to described as evil. Next twelfth I'll leave my collarette at home put on a forked tail, horns and one of those three pronged sticks.

"opposition to the OO is a minimum (which is not to say sufficient) condition for qualification as an opponent of the sectarian hatred"

Yes organise protests in Catholic areas were the attendees are told
1. "Those prods are ignorant bigots"
2. "Those prods are supremacists"
3. "Those prods hate democracy"
4. "Those prods are dangerous"
5. "Those prods hate you just for being who you are"
6. "Those prods are evil".
7. "This is a Catholic area a person expressing a different identity can't be allowed to use a public road. It's our road"

You think none of those messages will encourage sectarian caricatures?
You think none of those messages will encourage a deep mistrust between communities?
You think none of these messages will encourage a sense of fear of a different community?
You think none of these messages will dehumanise members of a different community, an essential first step towards violence?
You think none of these messages will reinforce sectarian boundaries as normal and to be defended?

Those are exactly the messages that have been communicated in an area like Ardoyne for the past few years by republicans. The result was there for all to see on the 12th July 2005 at Ardoyne, republicans unable to stop young guys motivated by raw, pure sectarian hate.

"Once again we see the mote of Southern sectarianism (if there is such a thing) being used to deflect attention from the beam of Northern anti-Catholic sectarianism.
Once again Barnshee makes a strong case for his expulsion from Slugger."

Happy to support you where you can demonstrate that I am factually incorrect

fair-deal

I think you deserve a medal for your patience. I am not a member of the OO, its not really my cup of tea but I enjoy orange parades, especially the ones in Fermanagh and Donegal, which don't have any (that I've seen) UVF etc. banners/flags. I have found your posts on the OO very informative and your persistance and the measured tone of your contribution in the face of so much vilification of your organisation and by extension your own character is very commendable.

Please please please go into politics full time, if you arn't already. We need people like you!

Box exile,
there are not "900,000 moral reasons" as unionism is not a homogenous mass.

There was a vacancy for a job and a person not from Northern Ireland, or 1.7 míllion moral reasons as you probably call it, was given the job.

Blame it on globalisation, blame it on the lack of quality candidates from NI, blame it on the package that failed to attract quality candidates from NI but don't demand a northern Protestant unionist get the job because they have a moral right to it.

As I said, demanding "one of your own" get a position is a morally bankrupt position.

By the way, these 900,000 are not a homogenous mass capable of all being represented equally by one person but that's another argument.

Barnshee,
the head of the largest Protestant Church in the Irish Republic, the Very Rev. Robin Eames, said just last week that his church was fully integrated into the State, so who should we believe, him, a man of moral authority who represents the majority of southern Protestants or you a person who describes 4.1 million people living one of the most economically dynamic and liberal countries in the world as "scumbags to a man".

You obviously know nothing about us so don't try use us for whatever poison you are peddling. It really gets my goat up to hear northerners like you feign concern for their southern counterparts when in reality you wouldn't touch us with a bargepole, apostates that we have become.

I hate to break this to you but if all of the Republic's Protestants moved north unification parties would be in a majority. Where's my suitcase?

George

Where do I express concern for the protestant in the republic?

Some 3% ?? of the population you are irrelevant north or south.(dont trot out our brothers from africa as a sign of rising numbers)

1 The republic government supported murder gangs, refuse extraditionof murders and armed the murder gangs --yes/no? or was the arms trial a dream.
2 The republic was dragged into the 20th century by the the UK entry to the EC and has done handsomely from it yes/no ?
3 The only time they sat up and listened came as Dublin and Monaghan were bombed by a protestant murder gang. What sort of lesson was that?
Refute my facts and I might listen

Mr Eames toes the part line on the prods in COI ie don`t rock the boat.. All is not without dissent in anglican community however -there is serious concern about his line ( the Bishop of down a dublin man at the time if I my memory serves me right) was left in no doubt about this soft line when he was told a near as one can get to fuck off back to dublin when he promoted the ecuminical line

Bertie

Thank you for your kind comments. I must admit I have been considering just packing slugger in.

I am afraid I quit active politics after over ten years of involvemebt about 18 months ago.

Barnshee,
don't believe the prejudicial hype that Ireland was dragged kicking and screaming into modernity.

It's easier for you I know but you are fooling no one but yourself.

In fact, if you looked at the facts rather than bleating what you want to hear, it would be obvious to you. Which area of this island is at peace with itself and prosperous. Which area has a growing immigrant and Protestant population?

You do realise that the Republic was already chugging along nicely ahead of the UK growth rate for over a decade before entry to the EU in 1973.

You do also realise that Ireland has been the second largest EU contributor after Germany (we had to hand over fishing rights to 11% of Europe's waters) so they have done as well, if not better, in monetary value that is, out of us as we have out of them.

There is no such thing as a free lunch Barnshee although NI does seem to have been feeding from the trough for quite a while without putting the trotter in the pocket.

Anyway, over half of the EU money went to farmers who make up just 3% of GDP.

It's just we have been better at what we have done in the last 30 years with the access to markets than the EU and NI for that matter which got 3 times as much as us but is still an economic backwater.

Why? Because we want our country to be a success - that simple.

You are afraid to look at where you live and all the problems there, social and economic, and would rather whine about the more prosperous and dynamic south.

Have you fallen so far that nothing is a source of pride for you now and all you can do is call your neighbours scumbags? At least you can spell I suppose. Many of your brethren haved forsaken education for ignorance.

As for your extradition guff, the powers that be in NI could have asked to have terrorists charged and imprisoned here but never did and preferred to make political capital out of the troubles rather than lock terrorists up.

Why was that?

I forgot, you are so prejudiced that you don't ask questions, you merely bleat. Bah humbug...

should read "have forsaken"

George

Can spell but cant type

Notice you can`t refute my facts (yes/no) but resort to bluster. It is risable to suggest that any court in the zone of bogotry would convict an IRA member when the highest in the land colluded at the murder of protestants in the north and walked free (and a thief and a liar to boot)
As corporal jones says "they dont like it upem"

Ireland is divided because the northern protestant refused join-- largely because of a lack of trust in his catholic neighbour. Was that lack of trust justified. The last 30,60.90 ??? years would suggest yes.

To this basic distrust has been added now hatred for the murder gangs arising in the catholic community ,producing murder gangs in the protestant community and a level of visceral hatred between the communities that surfaces at situation like Ardoyne.

Strife is now arising in areas like Portstewart Ballymena , Colearaine etc where none existed. The lesson is that the communities cannot live together they should live apart.

Fair-deal

"I must admit I have been considering just packing slugger in."

Don't you dare! I can understand why but you give people like me heart.

"I am afraid I quit active politics after over ten years of involvemebt about 18 months ago."

That's a shame. I hope you reconsider. Again I understand that it can be very frustrating. I had been pretty active in the fringes promoting the Union in England, from about '93 up until the Belfast Agreement. I thought that I was part of a broad based, pro Union, anti-terrorism anti-appeasement grouping, it was a shock to discover that a large section of that wasn't as anti-terrorist and anti-appeasement as they always let on. The watering down the Union to save it message did not inspire me either, but to be honest it was of secondary concern. I thought, as did a few of my friends also involved, that if people living in Northern Ireland had given up on believing that they had a right to a decent society, why should we continue to bust our guts.

I am getting drawn to it again.

Bertie

We seem to have had somewhat similar disheartening experiences.

1. My experience of the UUP somewhat put me off party politics.
2. My local branch of the DUP (when it functions - although I hear that is improving) is known for internal sniping and I'd had enough of that so wasn't wanting to rush to something similar, especially as far as I can determine the sniping was personality driven not policy based.
3. My job involves me having to work with all sections of Unionist communities so a party membership would add to the significant baggage I already have.
4. Ultimately, I am probably too-independent minded to feel too comfortable in a politcial party let alone seek to be a representative. I like debating ideas a lot but Unionism in any form doesn't do it much. I suppose a Unionist debating group or a think tank would probably be were I would find the most satisfaction but neither really exists.

I have always wanted a real unionist think tank to be set up not just because I too feel that is where I would be most useful, but because I think that it is something needed within Unionism. However those most involved in politics do it within a party structure and therefore finances tend also to go to parties and the parties not unreasonably are focused on winning elections.

"Ultimately, I am probably too-independent minded to feel too comfortable in a politcial party let alone seek to be a representative."

I can really identify with this. It's the main reason that I joined Friends of the Union. If you are not already a member I would hope you would consider it. It is the nearest thing to a non aligned unionist think tank that I know of. If I won the lottery I would give a chunk of it to FOTU to beef this up. It is also has the potential to provide a basis for unionist unity - excluding the terrorists of course. At the Hatfield conference which FOTU hosted, it was one of the conditions that the PUP and UDP would not be invited. Irvine was severly miffed.

Bertie

1. I wasn't especially aware the FOTU still functioned.
2. On the unity stuff I always thought this was a bit of a holy grail. It was surprising that the alliance that underpinned the UUC lasted as long as it did and it was unsurprising something as severe as the Troubles finally caused its breakdown. I see advantages for Unionism to have two parties, competition is usually good, the significant problem with the two party model at the moment is one party (UUP) is in no serious position to compete.

By unionist unity I don't mean having one party. I just mean a forum where unionists of whatever party or none can explore what unites them and co-operating where possible for the good of unionism.

I agree that we are best served by two strong unionist parties, (if NI can't have the same system as on the mainland), but we shouldn't have to expend absolutely all our energies in fighting amongst ourselves.

we shouldn't have to expend absolutely all our energies in fighting amongst ourselves.

agreed

Bertie and Fair-Deal - Harry and Ginny ?

George

"I hate to break this to you but if all of the Republic's Protestants moved north unification parties would be in a majority"

What do you mean by this and where is the evidence for it please ?

"Bertie and Fair-Deal - Harry and Ginny ?"

I have to admit that I had to 'google' this to understand the reference. What an old romantic you are Alan!

Alan

I find a romantic nature and a sense of humour very attractive.....

Schnellwichserhosen,
as the unionist/nationalist split is finely balanced and as you could hold an annual southern unionist convention in a phone box, sending 150,000 southerners north of the border would probably tip the balance. But I wouldn't impose such a thing on my worst enemy. Strange the way you don't ask for evidence that we are all scumbags.

Barnshee,
you certainly pin your monochrome colours to the mast. By the way why do you mention bogotry when Ireland is the largest software exporter in the world and deals more in pharmaceuticals these days. Farmers are just 3%.

But are you not worried that your views are a major reason for "defeatism" among northern Protestants, as evidenced by the refusal of an ever-growing number of unionists to vote unionist anymore.

There are more and more NI Protestants who don't want to be part of a unionism that exists on a vitriolic hatred of Irish people and all things Irish. They want to live with their neighbours not build a wall.

"Ulster is British" was the cry 80 years ago and a third was given to the Irish state, Protestants and all.

Now you are willing to give another third, Protestants and all. I tell one thing for sure, we'll stand by them better than your ilk ever would. Send them down, the sooner the better.

Barnshee,your initial posting,which will see has been removed,contravenes Slugger rules.

George

"sending 150,000 southerners north of the border would probably tip the balance".

In favour of what exectly ?

"Strange the way you don't ask for evidence that we are all scumbags".

Who's 'we' and why do you mention that ?!

"I hate to break this to you but if all of the Republic's Protestants moved north unification parties would be in a majority"

Excellent point,George-I'm surprised I myself never twigged this.
The evidence:
On the rare occasions that unionists have stood for election in the South their vote was so minuscule that, even alllowing for relevant population proportions,very few Protestants could have voted for them.

Objectivist,

The Irish Unionist candidate that stood in the Dublin North by-election, is now a Fine Gael councillor (county Cavan, I think).

Yes, your right the former UUP candidate for West Belfast didn't reap the rewards in terms of votes when he put himself forward as a candidate for Dail Eireann (108 1st preference votes). But he deserved full marks for raw courage, and at least he earnt himself a footnote in the history books - as the first unionist to stand in Dublin since the 1918 poll.

The North Antrim Presbyterian will be most remembered in Dublin North as the guy who made an extraordinary admission of cross-voting - turns out he passed on his transfer to the Provisional movement candidate, Mr Paul Donnelly, whom he had befriended whilst out on the electioneering trail!!

Nathan,the other recent guy was Stan Gebler Davies in West Cork '92 whom everyone loved but for whom very few voted.I vaguely knew about t'other guy only insofar as he stood somewhere in Dublin.
I was bracing myself for a 'names and dates' challenge from Wichser so thanks for preemptively helping me out.
George,
It never ceases to amaze me that unionist propagandists who try to label the ROI as an anti-Prod cesspool simply refuse to listen to the testimony of real live Southern Protestants.The point about African Protestants does not wash.I notice that the tend to come here rather than NI -'nuff said.

Objectivist,
indeed, they are everywhere. My colleague is a Lutheran South African and he came here to Cork nearly three years ago with his two children, who he happily sends to the local Sacred Heart because it's the best school.

A lot of Northerners just don't get what is going on here when it comes to on the ground ecumenism.

Barnshee,
The combined DUP and UUP vote has dropped by over 40,000 in the last 20 years in Westminster elections and that's even before we take into account that soft unionism, aka Alliance, have lost over 30,000 and if we throw in the UPUP's 22,000 votes we see a drop of 100,000 votes in 22 years.

100,000 less votes for unionist parties in two decades and a lot of that is down to people like you. Down all the way to just 369,000 so sending up 150,000 southerners would have an impact.

Northern Protestants may not want to be part of a unified Irish state but an awful lot of them want absolutely nothing to do with what you are proposing.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they are more afraid of what you and your pals have planned for them under the East of the Bann End of Days Rapture plan than any future united Ireland.

I recommend you don't presume to speak for all of them in future which is what you are doing when advocating forced resettlement, just as you shouldn't presume to be able to describe all southerners. We're a complicated bunch just like northern Protestants.

Feintruaillitheoir,
"We" are the 4.1 million people who live in the Irish Republic who are apparently all scumbags in the eyes of Barnshee.

Nathan,
Fine Gael are a pro-unification and Irish Republican party so even if your man was a unionist, he had to run as an Irish Republican to get elected.

It is also ironic that a man who has opines at length about the plight of oppressed (sic) Southern Protestants now describes this group as irrelevant and 'scumbags to a man'.

"but I do know that we never have Protestants and Catholics throwing petrol bombs at each other in Donegal or other areas with large Protestant minorities."

Just back from a week in west Cork where a local told me that until ten years ago there was an insidious level of anti-Protestantism which made it difficult to involve themselves in political life- interestingly he attributes the change to the influx of migrant workers, who support the Protestant churches. He has been vilified because of his pluralist views by the local Shinner gombeen men

And right through the 1970s to the present Orange Halls have been destroyed and vandalised- St Johnston being destroyed in the 1970s, and Breakey in County Monaghan seriously damaged by fire in 1997. Thretas to Scouts with a Union Flag in Ballyshannon a few years before that. Thgere is also an interesting case of a businessman intimidated out of Letterkenny ( a baker called Patterson, I think) in the late 1970s who now lives in Toronto, and who has been trying to get his case considered by the irish Government since then

So not a long list,only those that spring to mind immediately but hardly "never"?- or are you one of the deniers on the grounds of scale- who blithely ignore the murders of 100 Protestants in the south 1920-2 ( out of a population of 300,000), but (rightly) would not let us forget that 300 Roman Catholics were killed in Ni over the same period out of a population of 400,000. You know the type-"One's a pogrom, the other's a myth"

Yup, yous-un's are no better than us-un's after all. We have all much to be ashamed of in our histories.

sighs
"It is also ironic that a man who has opines at length about the plight of oppressed (sic) Southern Protestants now describes this group as irrelevant and 'scumbags to a man'."

I have no axe to grind nor opinion about the present position of the protestant in the republic.

repeats (ad nauseum)

at 3% of the population they and their opinions are irrelevant to the problems and solutions to problems in ireland.

(I note that no poster disputes or refutes the facts of republics collusion at the ongoing attacks on the protestant community in the north)

''(I note that no poster disputes or refutes the facts of republics collusion at the ongoing attacks on the protestant community in the north)''

I do not attach one shred of credence to this slanderous contention.

how can anyone prove such a ridiculous accusation?

"how can anyone prove such a ridiculous accusation?"

Why do the words pot/kettle/black spring to mind?

Some for instances of:
The pattern of sectarian firebombings of Orange halls and a Protestant business (this attack was claimed by the RIRA) that took place last year in Tyrone.
The recent attack on houses in Suffolk (for which people were arrested for.)
The Kilrea republican flute band that during a parade in Ballycastle stopped outside the Protestant churches to disrupt their morning services.
The attack by Celtic fans on Twaddell a few months ago (plus the attack on the tour of the north and Twelfth parades.)
The illegal protests in Dunloy (didn't even want to let Protestants to drive through the village to a church) and Kilrea.
A bomb and a hoax bomb two years in a row (to stop Lurgan Protestants using the train on the Twelfth.)
Some of the attacks on the Fountain area.
Recent stonings of homes in Donegall Pass.
Etc. Etc.

Sectarianism is the preserve of no one community.

north belfast catholics are being attacked on a weekly basis.The chapel being attacked last week?a catholic owned pub outside ballymena being petrol bombed.a catholic grandmother being forced out of her home in ahoghill.Harryville chapel being defaced by secterian slogans about the pope.for f--- sake i could go on all day.And the unionist response?oh so predictable-silence.This is reality,sorry to tarnish your beloved unionist community

oh yes council funded bonfires showcasing uff and uvf gunmen firing their weapons,sickening placards in more bonfires taunting sucicide victims,a catholic man being attacked by loyalist bandsmen in castlederg.Does unionism endorse these incidents?

As the last line seems to have been lost on you I shall repeat it.

"Sectarianism is the preserve of no one community".

You began with denial. You respond with equivocation, "youse lot did it too". Neither solves the problem of sectarianism.

"And the unionist response?oh so predictable-silence" WRONG.

"The chapel being attacked last week?"

From the Belfast Telegraph

A number of PSNI officers attending the incident came under attack from stone throwers in the loyalist Twaddell Avenue area.
"Petrol bombs were thrown at the rear of the church, but thank God no-one was hurt," Fr Troy said.
"We will have to assess the extent of the damage later today, but church services won't be affected. We have a wedding this afternoon which will go ahead."
DUP MLA for the area, Nelson McCausland, condemned the attack.

When Catholic houses were attacked in Abbeydale (Source BBC NI)

Condemning the attacks, DUP assembly member Nelson McCausland said people should have the right to live in their homes without fear.
"It's clear that since a number of attacks took place in one area on the same night, this was an orchestrated campaign and it's totally unacceptable," he said.
"As well as hurting the families attacked, these attacks damage the entire community and are to be deplored."

Davidbrew, You have a friend who said up to ten years ago.... My Lutheran colleague lives in Cork. I'm living in Cork too but I don't swear allegiance to a foreign state above my own.

Barnshee,
I see you don't seem to be able to defend yourself against my claim that people like you with their hatred of all things Irish are one of main reasons why there are 100,000 less unionist votes in NI than 20 years ago.

Davidbrew,
southern Protestants, as a whole, don't take attacks on orangeism as attacks on Protestantism.

Like most southerners, they abhor criminal attacks but they don't see these attacks as attacks on them. Why? In simple terms, because they know it isn't a precursor to a pipebomb through their living room window because southern Protestants aren't really associated with the Orange Order.

How many are members today in 2005, do you know?

fair_deal,
You are correct. I believe that the unemployment figure in theis country is more or less the same as in Northern Ireland. Nobody is accusing Protestants of discriminating against Catholics here.

The kind of simplistic cause and effect analysis being used by nationalists in NI to justify their nonsensical mopery campaign is doing no one any favours. You might as well put the put the differential rates of unemployment down to "Protestant work ethic".

I remember Chris McGimpsy used to give a talk on this topic where he showed that RC unemployment was worse in the border counties in the Republic than in NI. Part of the question he posed was whether we should be interfering in the Republic about the discrimination against RCs.

objectivist

"the other recent guy was Stan Gebler Davies in West Cork '92 whom everyone loved but for whom very few voted."

A few inaccuracies - nothing we can't sort out here and now :-)

First, Stan Gebler Davies ran for Dail Eireann in 1987 and not 1992.

Second, he stood in the Cork South West constituency to be precise, achieving a grand total of 134 votes (ie. 0.4% share of the vote). I think we can all agree that this figure is less than the margin of error which exists when the franchise includes the insane, the stupid and the drunkards. Nevertheless, I have the upmost respect for any individual who has the courage to put their name forward for political office.

George ,

"Fine Gael are a pro-unification and Irish Republican party so even if your man was a unionist, he had to run as an Irish Republican to get elected."

You don't know the Blueshirts too well, do you George :-) There is no shortage of Monarchists within that party, Frank Meehan is one for starters. He's the nephew of PJ Meehan, the Home Rule MP for what was Queens County, prior to Sinn Fein taking the seat in 1918.

That particular Redmondiate was a Monarchist diehard - we know this because he submitted the Monarchy plan of his to Kevin O'Higgins - a document which was seen as a compromise to a united Ireland. O'Higgins was due to travel to London to present the Monarchy plan to the British government but was shot dead by the old IRA before he could discuss the ideas with British ministers.

Now, back in the 1990s, this monarchy plan was reactivated by the nephew of the Irish MP, when John Bruton was Taoiseach. Basically he submitted a document to the Taoiseach, dubbed the Monarchy plan Mk II, asking the then Taoiseach to consider whether any parts of it to could help provide a political solution in NI.

The 1995 MONARCHY PLAN was as follows -

-All power held by Westminster over the North to be transferred to Dublin. The document envisaged some autonomy for the province in running its own affairs but the North would send its MPs to Dublin instead of London.

- Prince of Wales to be the regent of Ireland

- The face of Betty Windsor on Irish stamps, and on Irish coinage with the harp, appearing with a crown on the reverse side - the date and value appearing in the Irish language.

- Irish Republic would re-enter the Commonwealth

- Berty Windsor to be crowned Queen of Ireland in a joint ceremony conducted by both Roman Catholic and COI archbishops of Armagh.

- Betty Windsor to spend at least six weeks per year in Ireland and in her absence, a regent such as Prince Charles or another member of the royal family would be the ruling Irish monarch.

-The Irish tricolour to be replaced with a green flag with a golden harp or a compromise with the red cross of St Patrick. The Royal Standard would be a blue flag with a golden crowned harp.

- Celebrations of the 1916 Rising would be banned in both parts of Ireland while March 17, would be the country's national holiday when "both traditions could march and honour their dead".

- Joint national anthems to be "God Save the Queen" and "Hail glorious St Patrick".

- A new federal capital would be agreed and a national federal government elected. The Garda and Royal Ulster Constabulary would be united in one force with the old name, the Royal Irish Constabulary, restored and an all-Ireland supreme court established.

So you see, some of the Fine Gael membership (i.e. the Redmondite fringes) do indeed support political unity. But at a heavy price - since Ireland would have to abandon its status as a republic and adopt the trappings of monarchy - a thought which makes my stomach churn.

As for the former Irish Unionist candidate, I'd be very surprised if he had much associations with the Redmondite fringes of Fine Gael. After all, John McDonald had already embarked on a voyage of rediscovery, with regard to the radical Presbyterian roots of Irish republicanism, well before he put himself forward as a candidate for Dail Eireann. So without doubt he was republican (albeit only nominally because he supported Commonwealth membership) before he ever joined Fine Gael.

I've got a copy of his Dublin North election literature at home, which was remarkably pro-republican, albeit unionist. The content was particularly striking, especially the 1793 Wolfe Tone quote which McDonald had selected, which said the following - "if the connection with Britain was one of perfect equality, equal law, equal liberty, equal justice then the link would be highly beneficial to both". Where John McDonald got this quote from I'll never know, but Wolfe Tone must have said it because I saw it quoted in ATG Stewart's book. As pointed out by Dr Roy Johnston, Stewart makes the "lurking suggestion that the Presbyterian republicanism of the 1790s was at heart unionist, in that it was part of republican movements in England, Scotland and Wales, which if they had succeeded would have led to a federal republic of these islands. Wolfe Tone would have been familiar with this aspiration." Indeed, Wolfe Tone must have been, otherwise he wouldn't have said such a thing. Thus, it was only later on that Wolfe Tone spoke of his desire to break the link, he had unionist republican ideas prior to that.

You'll be pleased to hear also George, that John McDonald was (is??) a big supporter of the Irish language. He was having grinds in the language at the time of the by-election (to replace disgraced Fianna Failer Ray Burke), and by that stage must have reached an acceptable standard in Irish because he took out a full-page newspaper advertisement in the Irish language paper La, urging the people of West Belfast to vote for him in the Forum elections, when he stood for the UUP back home in NI.

I for one am glad John McDonald has had a bit of election success (at long last), even if its at a local level - fair play to him, lets hope he punches his weight above the paraphet within Fine Gael - we could do with more Presbyterians in Leinster Hse besides the token one, Seymour Crawford.

By the way, George - I'd didn't like the manner in which you sneaked the words "your man" into the above comments, as if I was somehow imprisoned by the past, when all-Ireland unionism was a political force, as opposed than the political shadow it is today.

I most certainly am NOT a grassroots supporter for any sort of unionism, so please remember that in future. Granted, I could be a self-styled unionist if I put my mind to it, but then so could every other tolerant person, including yourself. All you need to do is indulge in a bit of pick and mix, a la carte style i.e.) try to rationalise unionism, and as republicans see if we can accomodate nominal unionism in any shape or form. Its that simple - and I know your capable of that sort of activity because you've demonstrated here on slugger before that you want unionists to ditch the Britishness malarkey, and re-engage with their Irishness - for thats the type of unionism that you could at least tolerate, even if you could never embrace it wholeheartedly.

Thats all I have to say to you George, for now ;-)

Nathan,
I haven't forgetten the past I just live in the present. Which party was in power when the republic was formally declared? Fine Gael.

I don't recall this Monarchy blueprint of yours being mentioned by anybody in Fine Gael but I do recall the man who succeeded Bruton (Noonan) as leader calling Fine Gael a republican party in favour of unification. That was in 1997.

If this Monarchy Plan of 1995 is so important why has nobody ever heard of it and why wasn't it discussed as a possibility by any party, newspaper or group?

I tell you why: because it's about as relevant to Irish people today as a treatise on how the moon is made of cheese.

At least now I can put a name to the fella in the phone box: Meehan's nephew.

So McDonald campaigned on a republican ticket but is also a unionist. In other words, he'll contemplate union with Britain if they change their ways to our ways. I can see that happening alright.

By the way,I said your man simply because I wasn't arsed scrolling back up to get his name. Nothing more. And I don't think Seymour Crawford (anything to the Dunlaoghaire Crawfords?) would be too pleased with you calling him the token Presbyterian :-)

"I'm living in Cork too but I don't swear allegiance to a foreign state above my own."

George

Well my friend is a card carrying member of Fine Gael, who might well be interested in the monarchist suggestions suggested by Mr Meehan but is definitely not a closet British nationalist.At least Meehan had the wit to realise that any serious attempt at reunification was going to require a lot of symbolic pain for your state, and a pile of sacred cows being slaughtered in advance.

It's all very well for you to say that the list of attacks I mentioned isn't seen as attacks on Protestants by some Protestants- but the victims might see things differently, and that's the annoying thing about us prods- we're multi-dimensional. I should add the threats to boy scouts I referred to were in fact to the Boys Brigade, as mentioned by other posters.Apologies.

And let's not forget ( though I wish for decency's sake that we could) the views of Bandon Grammar School's most famous alumnus( alumna? alumnum?) Graham Norton. He noticed a chill factor as a Protestant in Cork. if it turned him into to the person he is, nationalism has a lot to answer for.

BTW,if anyone living in your state did feel it appropriate to give his allegiance to another, what of it? We've several hundred thousand up here who are so afflicted, and that's their choice. No need to be dismissive.

And as one who regularly regales us with your disgust at flag burning, what is your view of the vandalising of the memorial to Sir Francis Drake in Carrigalline last week? Now I know he was a nasty piece of work,who was beastly to the people of Rathlin Island, but he's still a British national hero- you know, the way Michael Collins was a thoroughly nasty piece of work, but an Irish hero. Amazing how many heroes turn out to be thoroughly unpleasant. Hardly demonstrating a mindset in tune with a European city of culture, though.

And what about the recent campaign to get rid of all those embarassing pillar boxes with GR, VR, or EviiR on them, that oppress the poor Irish posters of letters?

Are these the signs of society at ease with it's past/ or is the restoration of Ballincollig British military cenetery, after years of neglect,more admirable?

Would you have been enriched by an Orange Lodge parading on Paddy's day in Cork, or diminished? Or might it all have been a tad embarrasing, when the Celtic jersey wearing spides rolled out of the pubs, pints in hand, and started shouting abuse at their fellow Irishmen?

If Cork isn't ready for Orangemen, Ireland isn't ready for unification. Let's just try to respect those who are on the wrong side of the border so far as their allegiances are concerned- not ignore them, or sneer at them.

George

“If this Monarchy Plan of 1995 is so important why has nobody ever heard of it and why wasn't it discussed as a possibility by any party, newspaper or group?”

You do like to indulge in a bit of creativity when it comes to people's comments, don’t you George. I say this, because not once in the above did I accord the so-called ‘monarchy plan’ with any degree of importance – for heaven sake, the author is a well-established party member and nothing more. I raised his name with you because you seem to think that Fine Gaelers are compelled to be Irish Republican. I’m not so sure of that, as there is no such thing as a parliamentary oath in the Dail, so no mechanism exists to exclude those who aren’t republican from representing their constituents. In that sense, we don’t know in advance whether a Fine Gael person is republican, unless they specify that they are. For all we know, Seymour Crawford TD may not subscribe to republicanism – we just don’t know, and to be honest with you I don't think its any of our business.

By the way, I’m just as curious as you are as to why this document wasn't spoken about, let alone published on the YFG/Fine Gael website for instance. After all, the option was there for John Bruton to publish it alongside a health warning i.e.) all opinions expressed here is solely the opinion of the author and do not necessarily represent YFG/Fine Gael party policy. The fact that Bruton refrained from giving the Redmondites any oxygen can only mean one thing – that Meehan’s unsavoury views were not fit for public consumption, as far as he was concerned. And I can perfectly understand that POV - after all, who in their right mind would want to hang out that sort of dirty linen.

You make the erroneous assumption that no-one in the media touched on the Monarchy plan of 1995 as well – I say to you get in touch with John Burns (any relation??) - he wrote a piece in the Irish edition of the Sunday Times newspaper about it (someone must have leaked the document to him as well). True, it wasn’t discussed as a possibility across the whole sections of the media, but only because that was the week when everyone (politicians, the public etc) was fixated on the fact that Prince Charles was coming over to Dublin for 2 days of public engagements. Republicans had this visit to contend with, so naturally enough the letters column was saturated with the Prince Charles visit, rather than focusing on the monarchy plan – which no-one (apart from the Fine Gael Redmondite wing) gives a toss about anyway.