If he wants to do a Gerry Adams impression then it would be far more useful and constructive if he called on the UVF to debate their future in the way Adams called on the IRA.

Our future does not include the UVF, the UDA or the IRA and the sooner they all face up to that fact the better

Dead right. Unless the PUP exercises, and can be proven to exercise command and control, then the levying of these fines (for, make no mistake, that's what they are) is little more than a proxy for good policing.

I have a lot of time for Davy Ervine. He's a great loss to republicanism. His unionism always strikes me as purely an accident of birth and the 1970s. He has too much humour to be a unionist. I find myself having more in common with his ilk than with mc-p's (and some mc-t's). If he would just stop trying to act intelligent...

"four horsemen riding shetland ponies" - magic!

Accident of birth? You're having a laugh. Poor Davy and his false consciousness - he just doesn't realise he's Irish! Something along those lines MCT?

Oh and I don't know about Ervine but I believe the PUP has had republican members in the past ;)

Ervine's an able politician and it's unfortunate that he never made a name for himself in a mainstream unionist party, instead associating with terrorists.

That's dead right, Davy; not dead right, Henry.

Henry, can you please get your eye back on the "IMC-is-a-bastardisation-of-democracy, -a-sop-to-recalcitrant-unionism, -a-cabal-of-spooks, -lackeys, -lickspittles-and-fantasists, -and-a-travesty-in-a-society-making-the-difficult-and-painful-transition -from-violence-to-peace" ball, please. What sort of rebel are ya?

Typical South Armagh man - wandering out of position chasing a ball he should never go for, and leaving his own man unmarked. Peter Canavan's dream. :-)

Fixed formatting - mod

mct

As always I speak for myself alone.

beano

would you ever wise up and grow a sense of humour?

There is something in the accident of birth thing from a left-right, liberal-conservative perspective. What on earth does Ervine have in common with the effete capitalist nonces of big-house unionism and the hawkish, tub-thumping, prejudiced god-botherers of the DUP? He has much more in common with the average joe putting up SF posters and ineffectively picketing miscreant public authorities than UUP members lunching with Lord FondledRoy and DUPers howling at that daspickible display of unashamed poovery. He does like the soft-couch TV commentator scene though...

H

Since you didn't rise to the bait on the big match, which team do you think will have learnt most from last time?

Middle class taig

So to be a unionist you have to be right wing? What a load of tosh! Although right wing myself, I know plenty of left wing unionists.

Rebecca

Who - 'Red' Sammy ?!

Can you name the ones who are, for example, campaigning actively and vociferously on a cross-community basis within his or her party in their party and publicly against the privatisation of water for instance ?

Rebecca Black

They could be to your left but that wouldn't make them left wing. Of course the terms have no real meaning in the context of our politics here.

Only when you raise the tax you spend can you talk about policy choices in a meaningful way.

Congatulations on your appointment by the way. Good luck.

MCT

It's going to be very close. I'd only be guessing if I tried to call it. Funnily ennough I think the losers might be motivated enough to go on and win the All-Ireland.

MCT,

"He has too much humour to be a unionist."

You really should get out more! :-)

From what I'd seen of Irvine on TV, I thought he was reasonably sensible. Certainly more respectable than more NI politicians.

I'm surprised at this blatant attempt at misdirecting attention away from the real issue!

I think we need to look a bit more closely at the media's perceived representation of Ervine. Some of his recent comments on the UVF/LVF feud have been dubious to say the least. In particular I recall his comments during the Spotlight programme on Lisa Dorrian's disappearance when he quoted UVF sources predicting that her alleged killers would be disposed of. Sometimes it's not what David says rather the way he says it, that leads one to believe he perhaps condones or more accurately 'understands' violence in certain circumstances. It doesnt always tie in with the frequent condemnations of elements of his own paramilitary wing. The media simply wont tolerate any condemnation at all of Ervine and it was laughable to see Ken Reid defending him perhaps a bit too over zealously during cross examination by Paul Clark on UTV Live. Double standards exist here both with Ervine and also the media's portrayal of him as the acceptable face of Loyalism. I think we need much more detailed analysis of his relationship with the UVF in the same way has been done with Adams/McGuiness. ie are any members of the PUP on the Military Command/Army Council of the PUP?. IF so is Ervine on eof them? Why has this question not been asked particularly in light of so many recent murders?

"They could be to your left but that wouldn't make them left wing. Of course the terms have no real meaning in the context of our politics here."

Yes you are right, there are degrees of left wing, for example Lady Sylvia Hermon regularly votes with Labour in the House of Commons. The point which I am making is that not all unionists are Bush following right wing people!

I also agree that left and right wing politics do not exist in Northern Ireland, also in the UK and the Republic so-called left wing parties are all centre right, many are using their reputation as being left wing or sticking a few left wing policies in their election literature to win voters, in reality they are not left wing at all eg. Fianna Fail, British Labour Party

One of the reasons I left the PUP was the dawning realisation that it existed primarily as a front for the UVF (of course I knew of the links, but I mistakenly assumed that the links were secondary to its desire to promote a left wing voice for working class protestants).

I am struck by the willingness of the media to take everything Ervine says at face value, and never challenging him on the glaring contradictions that exists between rhetoric and reality.
Of course leading members of the PUP are directly involved in the UVF, in fact I can think of only one senior member who isn't , and I think that has more to do with gender than anything else.

Ervine huffed and puffed that he would leave the PUP if it was found that members of the UVF in south Belfast were involved in the racist campaign against the ethnic asian community in that area.
Well UVF members were involved, and he is still there.
No one from the media challenges him on this.

I think it stems from the fact that we are all desperate to see some kind of articulate voice from loyalist paramilitary quarters, and Ervine being the only thing we have, the media gives him a by ball.

This has proven to be a mistake in the long run, in fact, I remember Eamon McCann writing an article years ago, really laying into the PUP, (I'm assuming) not because he wanted them to fail, rather because he wanted them to succeed,and understood that they had to be held to a greater level of accountability for this to happen.
Unfortunately no one else took Eamons point of view, and we now find ourselves in the sorry situation where the PUP serve little or no purpose whatsoever.

"What on earth does Ervine have in common with the effete capitalist nonces of big-house unionism and the hawkish, tub-thumping, prejudiced god-botherers of the DUP? He has much more in common with the average joe putting up SF posters and ineffectively picketing miscreant public authorities"

There's no worse a fool than a blind fool. My whole point in highlighting my wish he'd joined a mainstream unionist party is precisely because they are often distant and aloof.

I would say he has more in common with the average joe from Sandy Row or Sydenham than anyone putting up SF posters, call me crazy. There are working class unionists too MCT.

Wichser
"Can you name the ones who are, for example, campaigning actively and vociferously on a cross-community basis within his or her party in their party and publicly against the privatisation of water for instance ?"
Few people campaign on anything on a cross-community basis here. Sad but true.

All the parties claim to be against privitisation of water. I don't know anyone running a cross-community campaign though.

wischer

You're obviously not up with events, all the parties have stated their opposition to water privatisation. I'm pretty certain all of them touched on it in their manifestos. There is an ongoing campaign about water charges and privatisation. The issue has also been raised in political negotiations

Yes, all parties have expressed opposition to water charging, which is different from privatisation. The govt is not privatising water services.

Davy E. has said that while he won't encourage people not to pay (unlike Eamon!) he personally willl not be paying the bill when it comes.
I dont think any other politician has said that and its admirable.

"There's no worse a fool than a blind fool."

Is that supposed to be me? Be nice if you articulated your insults a bit better. I'm not just recreationally insulting unionists here, I reallyy don't see a left-wing niche ANYWHERE in unionism.

"My whole point in highlighting my wish he'd joined a mainstream unionist party is precisely because they are often distant and aloof."

Okay.

"I would say he has more in common with the average joe from Sandy Row or Sydenham than anyone putting up SF posters, call me crazy. There are working class unionists too MCT."

I was talking about his political opinions and social agenda. A pity you dragged it back to sectarianism and class struggle, but if those are the only arena in which you are comfortable, carry on.

Jo

The present plans are viewed as a precursor of privatisation hence parties have rejected it as a first step and oppose the second step. the trade unions also characterise GoCo as de facto privatisation

FD:
What the TUS believe is down to them, there is probably some form of PPP planned but that is govt policy in most areas, not just water. Privatisation is unpopular as it usually leads to job losses, but these are planned anyway (to keep bills down.) Another domestic bill that our politicians have virtually hand-delivered to us!

MCT you're the one who dragged the "putting up SF posters" into it. Read your post again and tell me it doesn't suggest Ervine, because he is a socialist, should have been an (Irish) republican.

Anyway if that's not what you meant I'm sorry I took you up wrongly. There is a Unionist Labour Movement or something somwhere. Someone from them has been on the Young Unionists blog a few times. Obviously they're not very popular (yet) but who knows what could happen in time? I think they'd make a much more natural home for many that currently vote for one of the main 2 parties.

"Ervine: arrest me now!" - sadly 'being a self-involved, irrelevant gangster, and archbore' isn't, anymore, an imprisonable offence in Norn Iron. Bring back Brookeborough.

And why oh why do England have to throw away their wickets so?

beano

SF are the most left-wing serious party in the North, are they not?

"Read your post again and tell me it doesn't suggest Ervine, because he is a socialist, should have been an (Irish) republican."

I thought that the key line in "There is something in the accident of birth thing from a left-right, liberal-conservative perspective."

"effete capitalist nonces of big-house unionism" was pointing up fiscal/economic right wing leanings

"hawkish, tub-thumping, prejudiced god-botherers"
was pointing up social/military right wing leanings

"lunching with Lord FondledRoy" points to big-house unionist affection for aristocracy and privilege

"howling at that daspickible display of unashamed poovery" talks to hard-line unionist intolerance of those with different lifestyles.

"Anyway if that's not what you meant I'm sorry I took you up wrongly."

No problem.

I'm not sure that there's the left-wing unionist constituency you think, though. If you grow up in a culture which (naturally enough) views concepts such as human rights, equality, affirmative action, etc with suspicion, and which makes enemies of liberal figures on a local and international stage, you're unlikely to end up a Bennite.

If Ervine is a socialist, his pedigree is in the line of:

Bettino Craxi
Bernard Tapie - or maybe
Oswald Moseley

Let's not forget what David Ervine is - a spokesman and apologist for the UVF. The media decided to turn him in to a cross between John Smith and the Dalai Lama because he could string more than two words together, made vague noises about Socialism and moaned about fur-coat brigade Unionists.

None of that changes the fact that he is a spokesman and apologist for the UVF. The UVF are a collection of bigoted, murdering, drug-dealing, gangsters. There is nothing progressive nor Socialist about them.

well, that all may be true, but they could society a good turn for once by eliminating the LVF.

Jo

"they could society a good turn for once by eliminating the LVF."

Wonderful idea. Advocate more violence and murder, just what NI needs.

Jo

One of the reasons behind the first guy being murdered was for refusing to withdraw his evidence given to the police after a shooting incident.

That's something we obviously want to promote in Northern Ireland isn't it. Where would we be if people keep coming forward offering to give evidence in court?

The last two people killed in this feud had damn all to do with either of the groups and they still ended up dead.

Don't tell me friendly fire? Collateral damage?

Correction

In my temper I made a mistake.

The last two people shot in this feud had damn all to do with either of the groups and one ended up dead the other on the critical list.

FD:
Dont lose it now..steady.. ;)

fair_deal

One of the principal reasons this is happening is because unionism (in the broadest sense possible) hasn't taken the isue if unionist terrorism seriously. If Eddie Copeland lets off, unionism enters paroxysms of apoplexy. In contrast, unionism appears happy to let several very large crowd of scumbags operate openly and with impunity. No social opprobrium, no political isaolation, and precious little legal action.

There's more than the PUP to blame for this sitation.

With a 'tache like that it's a wonder Ervine doesn't get mistaken for an off-duty policeman more of the time. Maybe he could place himself under (young ?) citizen's arrest.