Question from an American observer:

Will we find out their names when they appear before the magistrate tomorrow? Here in the States, when the police announce they have a suspect, it is usual to report the suspect's name. Actually, I think arrest records are public information except in the case of minors.

Alan,

yes, the names will be released tomorrow. Although if you have a link to the Irish News site they name the men in their lead story.

Thanks, Pat.

Is there a special legal reason for not releasing the names, or is it just that the UK libel laws are so much stricter than in the US.

Alan

There are no legal restrictions on releasing the names of individuals before they are formally charged, and it isn't libellous to say that that named individuals are being held on 'suspicion' or in connection with a crime. It all depends on how fast the news is breaking and whether for operational or other reasons names are released.

Thanks, Colm.

Obviously things have still a ways to go, but lets hope that if people are guilty, then they are found to be after a fair trial, and the family can have some justice.

As a member of the Unionist community, I now hope that we see attention focussing on the Lisa Dorian case, and Unionist politicians taking a pro active stance on seeking justice for her family.

If they don't, then they have some explaining to do.

This is good news, the McCartneys do need justice, and the butchers that committed the crime need to be locked up.

Nobody condones the murder of Robert McCartney but the McCartney sisters have politicised this.

garrett,

nonetheless, the Mc Cartney sisters would have remained nonentities if certain mebers of the IRA hadn't killed their brother.

Paddycanuck

Call it what you want but it ain't justice. Looks like the PSNI couldn't pin anything on Jock Davison so they're making do with his uncle. Anybody else a wee bit concerned why the man who has been widely reported as the person who stabbed both Robert CCartney and Brendan Devine is only facing an attempted murder charge?

This is good news, the McCartneys do need justice, and the butchers that committed the crime need to be locked up.

and anybody who conspired to pervert the course of Justice should be in Jail with them.
[]

I'm delighted for the McCartney family; and hope a very clear message is being sent out: that the days of getting away with this sort of brutality are over.

"and hope a very clear message is being sent out: that the days of getting away with this sort of brutality are over."

If only the brutality of the loyalist punishment squads got as much publicity.

Perhaps this will help the unionist community to take a similar stand agaainst the uvf and uda.

Well remember Dec its all only hearsay as to who stabbed who i guess you'd have had to have been there.

"Perhaps this will help the unionist community to take a similar stand against the uvf and uda."

Sure Irvine and his pals are all law abiding citizens.Apart from the drug dealing ,extortion and knee cappings.

What has the unionist community/uda/uvf got to do with the McCartney case.
I have pointed out the whataboutery on a loyalist thread a few weeks ago, seems it raised its ugly, un-educated head on this thread also.

Sol

What has the unionist community/uda/uvf got to do with the McCartney case?

Such savagery has ramifications for all parts of society. Sadly it is not limited to only one side or another. This means that there are lessons to be learned for all the men of violence, including the loyalists paramilitaries. The news of the arrests is indeed welcome, even if it is long over due, but as Catherine says

"there were more than two people involved."

Well whatever the political machinations that have surrounded this issue, let's hope that all those who were genuinely involved in the actual violence carried out face proper fair and truthful justice, and that it isn't just a token number who will be jailed to 'satisfy' the pressure for action while more deeply involved individuals remain untouched.

Zorro
I was trying to pinch the whataboutery in the bud.
It was my attempt at being consistent and fair minded, why bother.
Sol

Once again the Catholics of northern Ireland have allowed their mistreatment of eighty odd years to be preempted by a saloon murder.

It's like a shell game. Which nut is the pea hidden under.

How sad is that ?

I wonder will Brendan Devine's statement stand up in court.?

The defence would have a field day with his criminal past

Napper

Ridiculous exaggeration there. N.I. thankfully doesn't have 200+ murders a year. That is one of the main reasons why the McCartney murder has attracted such attention. Would you prefer to go back to the days of regular news broadcasts of "today in Belfast there's been another murder and several people were injured by a bomb blast....

Yes.

Yes I would.

I would be interested to know the age and experience of some of our more 'militant' members of Slugger.. As one who grew up in the dark oul days, the thought of going back to that is indeed a scary prospect..

Sol,

I am merely suggesting that the ramifications of this this murder are not limited to just the Nationalist community. It poses questions for all us and there are surly lessons to be learned?

garret

..the McCartney sisters have politicised this

If what is alleged is true, the matter became politicised when those involved returned to the bar and told those present that it was IRA business. The sisters reponse is a natural one and I assume would have been no different in fervour and determination if the murder of their brother had been committed in different circumstances.

According to John Breslin and Eddie Cassidy in the Irish Examiner the man being charged with the Killing of Mr McCartney was an employee of the pub.

Pub bouncer to be charged with McCartney murder.

Does anybody know if he is an ex-prisoner ?

The "bouncer" industry needs to be regulated.

Davros

That report couldn't even get Jock Davison's first name right so I wouldn't pay too much heed to any other 'insights' it provides.

What does Mr Davison do for a living, does anyone know ?

Dec- SF's website cannot even get their own Ms Ruane's name right - shouldn't we pay any heed to anything on it ? Hmmmmmm?

Bouncers - how many are ex-prisoners ? The ex-prisoners that some argue should have their records expunged and be encouraged to join the police .....

It is totally irrelevant what Davison does for a living

I disagree pat - I would be unhappy at frequenting a pub that employed bouncers with terrorist pasts and I'd be wary of frequenting a pub if I thought that it's employees might murder me.

Not that the above prejudges any individuals or cases yet to go before the courts. I'm talking in general terms.

Davros

If you want to place total faith in news reports that can't even get simple facts straight (which I always thought was a useful indicator of journalistic quality) that's up to you. The feeble attempt at whataboutery was pure class, though.

Dec- Is he an ex-prisoner ?

He was not one of those expelled by the RM, as far as I am aware.

Thank you for answering a question, even if it wasn't the question asked, Dec.

McCartney, Devine charges brought

From the UTV report there appears to be only witness evidence (no forensics) against Mr Davison, about which the Senior Police officer admitted in court there are 'discrepancies'.

Go into any pub in east belfast and you'll find paramilitary connections in all of them

about which the Senior Police officer admitted in court there are 'discrepancies'.

Where does it say that in the UTV report Dec ?

Two remanded after McCartney murder

I don't see any mention of a Police officer saying there are discrepancies.

Go into any pub in east belfast and you'll find paramilitary connections in all of them

I don't know about "all" of them , but it's a problem that needs be addressed - who owns the pubs/clubs and who is employed should be scrutinised very carefully.

Davros

I phrased that badly. The court reporter on Sky news this morning said that in answer to a defence submission as to whether those who had given statements had been contacted by 'third parties' afterwards the Senior Police officer admitted there were discrepancies. However I have yet to see that online.

Thanks Dec.

Well, Dec, if you can't even get your phrasing right, how can anyone expect to believe what you post? I mean, really!

there are two eye witness statements naming Davison,but no forensics.

If one of these witnesses is Devine, it would be highly improbable that the judge would allow this statement to be used as evidence, as Devine was involved in a bottle attack inside the bar.

Devines previous charges for a knife attack and armed robbery would probably discredit his evidence.Poor charactor etc..

Will Sinn Fein not protest if it is claimed that participation in armed robbery is indicative of poor character ? They have consistently claimed that the men involved in the Adare robbery are fine and upstanding people....

Also Devine appears to suffered loss of memory since the attack, claiming he does not remember mosts of the events of the night. His testimonial in court should be interesting.

I'm glad to see the republican contributors approaching this subject sensibly. Let's hope the trial brings out the detail of what has happened, and that, if these men are truly guilty, justice is done.

It's a bit chilling to hear some people calling for the days of near daily bombings and shootings on this thread. Napper, do you live in Belfast ? Are you from here ? What makes you think violence is the way to achieve things ?

Davros, completely agree on the bouncer industry, it definitely needs to be regulated. A very significant number of them are linked to paramilitarism of one colour or another. In more general terms bouncers here often seem like a law onto themselves, engaging in unnecessary assaults and violent attacks just because the mood takes them; I've known of several cases where they've hospitalized people who merely demanded to know why they were being denied entry to the particular establishment.

Harry,

The thing is that a lot of other people are going to be called to give evidence at the trial. It's publicly known that a number of Sinn Fein members were present, and at the very least they will be expected to name anyone else they knew who was present. I presume the defence will need those witnesses to refute Devine's evidence if they want to ensure a watertight rejection of his case.

Have Sinn Fein publicly said anything to the effect that they would co-operate completely with any trial ? I think they have.

Davros

Again with the whataboutery. Devine is a convicted armed robber and is currently facing charges of wounding with a knife. He has been involved in a whole string of violent confrontations in pubs and clubs across Belfast and I've no doubt that the defence will claim he instigated the violence in Magennis's that night. Naturally, his account of events will be heavily
scrutinised.

Comparing Devine's past with the past(s) of the accused should prove quite a contest. Especially in terms of who emerges with more or less credibility. Anyone want to start taking odds?

Goose

Can you enlighten us with details of Mr Davison's past?

I would like to point out that I am no relation to Napper!

As far as i'm aware all bouncers within Belfast City Council's juristiction have to be registered.

This involves taking courses etc.

Isn't it funny how Devine's past is well known to those defending the Provos yet no one seems to know a thing about the Davisons and others involved in the murder? Why do you think that is?

Well I am sure it will all come out in the trial. If Devine's past is fair game then the past of the accused will be too.

McCartney's killer a part of 'untouchable IRA first family' of sadists and perverts

The boss's uncle is believed to have been the man, aged in his mid-40s, who was seen kicking and then jumping on the head of the dying Robert McCartney in Market Street, around the corner from the pub. He reputedly only stopped when someone shouted: "Stop, he's dead!"

This man, a person capable of kicking the prone body of a man who had already been slashed with a carving knife and stabbed in the heart, is, not surprisingly, yet another violent sexual deviant.

He has a reputation for violence against men and women, and though married and living with his wife in the Short Strand, is a familiar figure on Belfast's cottaging circuit.

He is also a fairly prominent Sinn Fein electoral worker. So is his nephew and so is the knife man who repeatedly stabbed and slashed McCartney and his drinking companion Devine. So is the man who beat McCartney and Devine with a sewer rod, gathered, with the knife, from the storeroom in Magennis's Bar in Belfast city centre.

These are the men you are defending when you attack the McCartney sisters quest for justice.

FREE TERRY TIGHT TRUNKS! FREE DIM JIM! THEIR ONLY CRIME WAS BEING PROVOS!

Devine is a convicted armed robber

So are the men in jail for killing Garda McCabe ...are you saying they are of "poor character" Dec?
Where does this leave those in the RM who say that ex-prisoner's past records should be expunged ? Should people likethese that you seem to be accusing of being of poor character be able to work in the private security industry or even worse, join the police force ?

goose

I don't know how many untruths are in your post,
But T.Davison has never lived in the Short Strand.

Ah so your source is Jim Cusack. Well, then that's it then. Didn't know Mr Davison was married. I'm sure he didn't himself. Must have happened during a Devinesque memory loss.

Of course, the difference is that Devine's past is a matter of public record whereas you present a garbled factually incorrect fantasy published in an anti-republican newspaper. As I said earlier, they couldn't get Jock so they're making do with Terry Davison.

Dec- you could always set the record straight.
Is the accused an employee of the pub and is he an ex-prisoner ?

Harry true enough, although many people mix up the Markets and Short Strand. As for the rest I am sure you know his, and the others, history and the article is more on the money than not. It gives a good sense of who the courts will be dealing with and what their background is. As the case progresses more details are bound to emerge.

Dec, be careful what you wish for. Jock is not out of the woods yet as regards charges being brought. As for the other bit of your post, do you not find it hard to breath with your head stuck in the sand so?

Brillaint timing by the PSNI - no chance of doing electoral damage to Sinn Fein in the short to medium term, they have extracted all that they can from this case so bring charges now. Brillaint. The RUC is dead, long live the RUC.

'Harry true enough, although many people mix up the Markets and Short Strand.

Do they?

'As for the rest I am sure you know his, and the others, history and the article is more on the money than not.'

How do you know?

'As the case progresses more details are bound to emerge.'

LOL, as opposed to the tabloid trash you've just came off with.

Pat, people who aren't from the area would not be disposed to appreciating the nuanced geography. Or do you expect everyone to know every estate in nationalist Belfast, the differences between them, their exact locations and relationships? Please be a little realistic. It does not hurt your cause to be so.

Say what you like about the Sunday Independent, it is not yet a tabloid, unlike the Sunday Life, whose story about Brian Davison you would perhaps prefer. Regardless the problems with the people in question are well known within local circles and it depends on your politics (and distance from the location) what version you prefer. Either the Davisons don't have a cupboard full of skeletons tumbling out and are angels that the Provos is in the right to protect for whatever reasons (certainly not to cover up sexual abuse a la the Catholic Church, the Provos would never have a history of covering up for child molesters in their ranks would they). Or the Provos aren't too fussy on who climbs to the top of the greasy pole of local power as long as the jobs get done.

Now we will be treated to those loyal to the Provos protesting that all is rosy in the garden and it's all the tabloids/unionists/anti-republicans/British governments fault. Yes, yes, and if you are good, Saint Nick will be bringing a United Ireland for Christmas in 2016.

Goose,

i've never haeard of anyone getting the Makets and Strand mixed up, I guess that is why they have different names nad one is in East belfast while the other is classified as the south.

Tabloid in modern vocabulary refers to a type of journalism not just practised by the red tops. It is sleazy and sensationalist with little or no regard to the truth. the fact you put so much store in same is revealing.

I'm sorry but the rest of your post rambles a bit and i can't be arsed to even try muster a reply.

Pat McLarnon you are absolutely right. Let's get back to talking about Brendan Devine's torrid past instead, and questioning his reliability as if it existed in a vacuum. That is a much more safe and comfortable discussion, much more enjoyable a way to pass the time. I wouldn't want to tax anyone's brains too much by stretching them outside their political comfort zones. It is, after all, Saturday and while the sun might not be accused of shining consistently, it is warm.

Good to see the pre-emptive smearing of the accused is well underway and only a couple of hours after their first court appearance.

Not quite as good as seeing the pre-emptive smearing of the victims underway, though, is it, Dec? Never you mind. It is time to get some fresh air and enjoy the rest of the afternoon.

The McCartney sisters along with the Police, SDLP, and the Media have used this case/cause to whip Sinn Fein and republicans. This case was manipulated to damage SF and Republicans, as seannaboy says now they have milked it for all it is worth they can act.

Or is it the case that the police wouldn't have bothered doing anything about this death only a fuss was made, (it seems a nice side effect of the McCartney’s campaign was the damage to Republicanism).

It is obvious from recent events in the Laganside Courthouse that the police here remain a sectarian force - a group of loyalist thugs can committed GBH, ABH and what appears to be attempted murder in a court in front of a senior PSNI Detective and with at least eight uniformed officers and nothing happens!!

What message does this send out to the people here? The police claim they can't convict anyone for killing Mr McCartney as SF and the IRA wont tell! Is the same true for the police officers and detectives present in Laganside? Will the police now call on members of the PUP/UDA/LVF/UVF/UFF/RHC or whatever name they are currently going by to come forward?

People, time to wise up. The Police were used here to prevent any inserection by the taigs and dispite any claims to the contrary this mentality still remains.

"If what is alleged is true, the matter became politicised when those involved returned to the bar and told those present that it was IRA business. The sisters reponse is a natural one and I assume would have been no different in fervour and determination if the murder of their brother had been committed in different circumstances"

I assume that there was a political motive as there was throughout a very suspicious desire to criticise republicans especially in their trip to the USA. Remember all those who are today jumping the gun that you are innocent until proven guilty. Anyway since when did unionists care about dead nationalists, this is hypocrisy on the unioists' part.

"Anyway since when did unionists care about dead nationalists"

maybe when nationalists stopped caring about them?

This is starting to stray into personal attacks.
Can we please stick to "playing the ball, not the man" else Sluggers will shut down. Who wants that?

This is starting to stray into personal attacks.
Can we please stick to "playing the ball, not the man" else Sluggers will shut down. Who wants that?

With regards to Devine's previous history of trouble in pubs and clubs across the land, I look forward to the forensics showing that the injuries on himself and Bert McCartney were quite clearly the injuries of innocent victims acting in self defence.

With regards to Devine's previous history of trouble in pubs and clubs across the land, I look forward to the forensics showing that the injuries on himself and Bert McCartney were quite clearly the injuries of innocent victims acting in self defence.

Phrased that wrong; should read:
I look forward to the forensics showing that the injuries on himself and Bert McCartney were quite clearly the injuries "inflicted by" innocent victims acting in self defence.

"The McCartney sisters along with the Police, SDLP, and the Media have used this case/cause to whip Sinn Fein and republicans. This case was manipulated to damage SF and Republicans, as seannaboy says now they have milked it for all it is worth they can act."

Of course, the republicans might have avoided damage had they not chosen to murder McCartney at the time they did. If you hand a propaganda opportunity to people on a plate, would you not expect them to take it ?

Comrade Stalin you say "the republicans might have avoided damage had they not chosen to murder McCartney at the time they did".

You seem to be insinuating that this was what some would term a sanctioned attack/killing, going by what has been said it isn't.

And NO, I do not expect the unionist/loyalist groupings to miss an opportunity to do down republicanism, what I do have a gripe with is the so called impart ional police force using these peoples misfortunes to score points.

Another interesting point is why has Mr Devine not been interviewed by the local TV/Papers and told how the row developed? I was wondering as early reports seemed to indicate that there had been words prior to the altercation. There seems to be quite alot of misinformation surrounding this incident - coming from ALL areas.

devine was interviewed in the sunday world some time back

Ticker

I haven't seen any interview with Devine in the Sunday World. I did see a small, puff piece about his participation in a charity boxing match though. Ver touching. Perhaps, in any forthcoming interviews he can explain why he decided to change his witness statement this week in order to implicate Terry Davison.

Its natural for Republicans to act in a defensive manner when attacked as most of our history has been spent in this fashion. I recognise that this savage murder of Robert McCartney has been used for political means. However, our reaction should have been complete compliance with the investigation and casting off immediately of all those involved. We allowed the movement to be tarnished by allowing the anti-republican agenda to focus on this ugly part of the republican family- cut it off and there ain't nothing to tarnish anymore.
I stood and clapped the McCartney sisters and Ms Hagan at the Ard Fheis with the rest of the crowd and still clap them on in their search of justice

I wasn't aware that witness statements had been published. Do you have a link?

The amount of material that has not been seen, and the uncanny ability of those who have not seen it claimimg to know the truth of the matter is quite impressive. Imagine how much more impressive their ability would be had they been paying attention!

Irish News

Bar killing witness was ‘just left to die’
07/02/2005
Exclusive
By Graeme Neill

Brendan Devine shows the wounds he sustained in an attack which led to the death of his friend Robert McCartney PICTURE: William Smyth

The first eyewitness to speak about the stabbing which killed father of two Robert McCartney has described how he and his friend were “left for dead”.

Brendan Devine (31) had his throat cut in a Belfast city centre bar in the early hours of last Monday, He was then stabbed in the stomach in the street.

Mr Devine, from the Antrim Road area of north Belfast, had been drinking in the bar in May Street with Mr McCartney when they were attacked.

When they left the bar after the attack on Mr Devine, his friend was fatally stabbed.

Last night, speaking from his hospital bed, Mr Devine paid tribute to his friend of fifteen years.

He said: “You couldn’t ask for a better friend.”

Mr Devine said a “heated argument” had started in the bar after the group he was with were accused of insulting a patron. There have been allegations of a republican link to the murder.

“I walked round the bar and I felt the presence of five fellas around me and was hit over the head with a bottle,” he said.

“I remember a hand coming over my face and my throat was slashed a couple of times.”

Desperate to get Mr Devine to hospital, his friends took him outside.

“The blood was really bad – it was pumping out.”

He remembered staggering about in the street before turning round and seeing Mr McCartney confronted by five men.

“I saw Bert holding his hands up going ‘Nobody deserved this. We didn’t do anything’,” he said.

The two friends were then attacked. Both were stabbed in the stomach.

“We were just left to die. And we didn’t deserve it,” said Mr Devine.

His mother, Ann, said her son “had not lifted his hands to anyone”.

Mr McCartney (33) from the Short Strand area of east Belfast, died from his injuries in hospital shortly afterwards.

Seven men, including a senior republican, have been arrested in connection with Mr McCartney’s murder. All have been released without charge.

Police last night revisited the scene.

Riots started last Monday night when police investigating the killling carried out searches in the nearby Markets area.

Officers were injured when they were attacked with bricks, bottles and stones.

There were further disturbances on Tuesday.

It has been reported that unknown men removed the security video tapes from the bar before the police could examine them.

A vigil held in Mr McCartney’s memory in the Short Strand on Friday night was attended by around 600 people.

His funeral is due to take place at St Matthew’s Church in the Short Strand at 11am tomorrow.

cladycowboy, come down from cloud sinn fein land! Again we see republicans urged to comply with the police even with acknowledging that "this savage murder of Robert McCartney has been used for political means".

The people who murdered Mr McCartney have done Republicans a great disservice, and a bigger disservice to the Provisional movement. But for SF to call for people to liaise with the RUC through the ombudsman’s office is farcical.

The IRA is an army with internal disciplinary protocols. From what I can ascertain an internal enquiry should have been held and the appropriate punishment handed out.

And what about the murder of Ms Dorian? Why is this not getting the same publicity that Mr Mc Cartney got? Let us not kid ourselves this is every bit as much a tradgedy for those involved, but unfortunatly there is little to be gained by making a big deal of this girls murder.

And another point. The McCartney sisters say they supported the Provisional movement for years, I take it that that includes the deaths of those at the hands of PIRA.

cladycowboy, come down from cloud sinn fein land! Again we see republicans urged to comply with the police even with acknowledging that "this savage murder of Robert McCartney has been used for political means".

The people who murdered Mr McCartney have done Republicans a great disservice, and a bigger disservice to the Provisional movement. But for SF to call for people to liaise with the RUC through the ombudsman’s office is farcical.

The IRA is an army with internal disciplinary protocols. From what I can ascertain an internal enquiry should have been held and the appropriate punishment handed out.

And what about the murder of Ms Dorian? Why is this not getting the same publicity that Mr Mc Cartney got? Let us not kid ourselves this is every bit as much a tradgedy for those involved, but unfortunatly there is little to be gained by making a big deal of this girls murder.

And another point. The McCartney sisters say they supported the Provisional movement for years, I take it that that includes the deaths of those at the hands of PIRA.

Raff, your concern for Lisa Dorrian would be more convicing if you knew how to spell her name. It would also be more appropriate if her murder was being ignored by the media and the police and her family were not running a campaign that has, in its own way, hugely embarrassed what passes for 'political loyalism'.
However the media and the police are pursuing Ms Dorrian's murderers and her family is running an effective campaign. So what's your real point here? Surely not "But themmuns!" Surely not...

Fanny

on behalf of bad spellers and worse typists everywhere I have to dispute the notion that not spelling a name properly is an indication of sincerity. I mis type my one name and I assure you that my concern for my well-being is genuine and enduring!

I wish the Dorrian family well and I hope they get what they seek and if in the process they can embarrass "loyalist" terrorists, then, as far as I am concerned that's all to the good.

It's not helpful to try and identically compare differenrt cases in a 'whataboutery' fashion. The Lisa Dorrian case is different to the Robert McCartney murder in that one appears to have been an abduction and planned murder carried out in secret, while the other was a pub brawl that spilled over into a brutal killing with scores of witnesses.

Trying to compare the handling of each of these acts demonstrates ignorance of the very different circumstances of each uniquely brutal murder.

Portadown News said it all about certain RM posters here and the Dorrian murder. Chuckie McScribbler.

Fany you are some what right. I am not overly concerned with the death of Lisa Dorrian nor Robert McCartney, (I did not know them, nor anyone who did), my concern here is with justice. What I am saying here is that every ones life, (or death) is worth the same let you be loyalist, republican or a good oul spud from 'norn iron' .

I am trying to get across the point that what passes for the police here, are a joke and that they are not interested/designed in/to combat crime but as a tool of the British government.

Funny the way people can say all they want about Terry Davison and no one is allowed to say about robert McCartney being a women beater,child beater, foul mouthed not to mention his behaviour that started the fight in the first place.

and by the way none of the two charged were bouncer's of the bar

"Where does this leave those in the RM who say that ex-prisoner's past records should be expunged ?

Davros."

Davros,

To attempt to link the behavior of those who allegedly killed Robert McCartney, with the vast majority of Republicans who over the past 35 years were brought before the courts, found guilty and therefore ended up with a criminal record is just plain wrong. 95% of these men and women if they had been born almost anywhere else in Western Europe post 1945, would not have ended up with a criminal record (the statistics are out there to check, crime levels in the north prior 69 etc) The fact is if the north (and the ROI) is to become a half decent society, the ex prisoners will need to be fully integrated back into it. This will be impossible without expunging criminal records.

The vast majority of ex prisoners are still of working age and incidentally many of them have a great deal to offer society, having gained degree's and other educational/trade qualifications whilst in jail or since their release. Plus many of them genuinely wish to put something back and help build a better society, yet due to their past convictions a whole raft of trades and professions exclude them, plus their opportunity to travel freely is curtailed. True at the moment this slack is partially being taken up by programes/organisations financed by the likes of the peace and reconciliation funds, but this can only be a temporary measure and so it should be, for at some time these funds will dry up, in any-case what is needed is real job opportunities. If criminal records are not expunged, then what you will end up with is generations of unemployed, bitter and brooding ex paramilitary's, now where may that lead I wonder?

Best regards.

I agree with you mick hall. I know that in my area the only people that do anything for the community is the ex.prisoners.And every one in the area have seen the good that they do.

Mickhall -well put case on prisoners

Mick - a lot of ex-prisoners, loyalist and republican, are involved in criminal activity. Giving them all a clean sheet is a terrifying thought, as is the thought that these people might be allowed into a Police force. We have seen what their policing entails.One of the myths exploded by the Mccartney murder and subsequent activities is that somehow Violent Republicanism was morally superior to Loyalism.
There's no difference except that Violent Republicanism has had better Spin. ( NB - I'm specifically saying Violent republicanism because I want to differentiate it quite clear from purely political Republicanism which is honourable and is worthy of inclusion in society at all levels )

Now, I have no problem in saying that you make some good points - but it's as wrong to portray them all as being angels as it is to portray them all as monsters.

"95% of these men and women if they had been born almost anywhere else in Western Europe post 1945, would not have ended up with a criminal record"

There is nothing to prevent an employer who believes that argument has substance from employing them.

Raff,

The McCartney murder was clearly not sanctioned by the leadership. But how much of what the IRA does (whether on ceasefire or not) ever is ? A certain proportion of the IRA's activity has always been locally organized.

"what I do have a gripe with is the so called impartional police force using these peoples misfortunes to score points."

It's not at all clear that the police have been involved in any point scoring; there's speculation and that's about it. Maybe the police did delay the arrests to inflict political damage; maybe the delays were for entirely operational reasons - how do you know ? Either way, they would not have been able to do so had the murder not taken place.

Had Sinn Fein been honest players in this whole business, the propaganda opportunity could not have been used by anyone. Sinn Fein instead spent the first two weeks trying to spin their way out of trouble, and then reversed to this "the killers are not true republicans, the family needs justice" line.

"The IRA is an army with internal disciplinary protocols."

There is no evidence that the IRA operates any kind of serious internal disciplinary procedure, beyond kicking out people who break the rules. Compare the punishment of the Garda McCabe killers with the punishment of the average tout. It would put the British Army to shame.

"I am trying to get across the point that what passes for the police here, are a joke and that they are not interested/designed in/to combat crime but as a tool of the British government."

Remind me again, what exactly have the police done wrong ? What should they have done instead ? To date your only complaint seems to be the length of time taken to make arrests and put the charges.

"And what about the murder of Ms Dorian? "

And thus begins the descent into whataboutery.

"Mary" quipped : "no one is allowed to say about robert McCartney being a women beater,child beater, foul mouthed not to mention his behaviour that started the fight in the first place."

I get it, so he deserved to die. Are you the kind true republican that other people here keep talking about ?

"The IRA is an army"

No it isn't.

Davros,

"I'm specifically saying Violent republicanism because I want to differentiate it quite clear from purely political Republicanism which is honourable and is worthy of inclusion in society at all levels "

I am not sure that everyone uses the term "republican" in the same way.

Can you clarify for me which group you consider those behind the Claudy bomb, Enniskillen bomb, La Mon, etc. are in, are they part of what you call violent or political republicanism. Is politican republicanism those who support the "armed struggle" but did not actually plant the bombs or pull the trigger? I'm unclear.

Oops missed a bit.

Or is it that those murdering as part of the "armed struggle" are honourable but those murdering as part of gangs in local desputes and drug desputes arn't?

Jimmy, a chara,

Just because you dont like the IRA does not mean it is/was not an army, even the Brits recognise it!
what do you think it is/was?

bertie

What goes around comes around.

OK c. Stalin, one point at a time read carefully.

1). If the police were not involved in point scoring then why did they not just go down to the hospital talk to Mr Devine who it has been alleged by the Mc Cartney sisters, stated he could and would pick his and Roberts attackers out of a line up, and then start making arrests?

2). Had Sinn Fein been honest players, etc, AT NO TIME do I attempt to make apologies for SF. I feel as do other people I have spoken to that SF did more damage to the provisional movement by adopting the "killers are not true republicans, the family needs justice" line.

3).There is no evidence that the IRA operates any kind of serious internal disciplinary procedure, beyond kicking out people who break the rules - this has been the reaction to this whole melee. If you do a bit of reading you will find out that PIRA do claim to have and appear in the past to have carried out investigations and what is now referred to as 'internal housekeeping' previously 'Kangaroo Courts' - I am not involved with them I can only go by what I have read.

4).Remind me again, what exactly have the police done wrong? - Well c. Stalin take your pick. Was it the failure to talk to Mr Devine? Was it the delay in interviewing those who admitted they were in the bar? Was it the near constant referrals to this being carried out by PIRA? I don't know!

5).The murder of Ms Dorrian, this was not a move into conjecture (I really think whataboutery is such a pathetic norn ironism!!) it was as a comparison - if one death is very important then surely the other is too? This should be evident if you read the post properly.

On a final note and here I will venture into conjecture - Is it possible that Mary wanted to portray that there is more than one side to ANY story.

c.s. I hope that clears it all up for you.

"bertie

"What goes around comes around"

I have absolutely no idea why my post asking Davros to clarify his terminology for me has given rise to this comment.

Are you trying to say that the atrocities mentioned are part of what comes around or what goes arround or are you getting at something else.

bwd,

The danger with using terms like "army" and "war" as rhetorical devices is the temptation creeps in to argue as if they had somehow become terms of art by mere repetition. I understand why its admirers would wish to use the term rather than "terrorists" or "gangsters" but it needs to be understood that the words in this context convey nothing other than the admiration of the person using them. You can call them Betty if you wish, but it doesn't alter what they are.

Raff.

There is usually more than one side to any story, but that doesn't mean we should give equal credence to all sides.

For example, in rape cases, it has sometimes been suggested that the victim was asking for it by wearing suggestive clothing.
I don't deny that some people might hold this opinion, but I do think they are not worth listening to when they start saying this.

Same with people who allude to a history of domestic violence on the part of the victim as some kind of justification for murder.

I think Robert McCartney said it best.

Nobody deserves this.

"Are you trying to say that the atrocities mentioned are part of what comes around or what goes arround"

Got it. Unionism planted the seeds of the troubles. They reep what they sow.

TAFKABO

Point well put and taken.

Well I've just learned that the victims of these atrocities deserved it. I wonder did the non-unionist victims of the IRA also deserve to be murdered.

TAFKABO
I think Robert McCartney said it best.

Nobody deserves this.

You are hearing what his sisters said he said.

Pronsias.

No.

It's what he was heard saying on his mobile phone as he was being murdered.

IM NOT GOING TO COMMENT EITHER WAY about guilt or innocence of those mentioned.what Iwill say is that the mac Cartneys were better people and better Republicans than those who carried out this butchery--the men of Easter 1916 and the likes of Bobby Sands must turn in their graves when they see scum like these recruited into their movement,

It's amazing. This quote is on this very thread and yet the selective vision still manages to miss it, and persists in the myth that the sisters said it (and implication that therefore it must not be true).

(Devine)He remembered staggering about in the street before turning round and seeing Mr McCartney confronted by five men.

“I saw Bert holding his hands up going ‘Nobody deserved this. We didn’t do anything’,” he said.

The two friends were then attacked. Both were stabbed in the stomach.

“We were just left to die. And we didn’t deserve it,” said Mr Devine.

If Devine was such a good friend why did he leave it so long to come forward and point some one out.

it was said in the past that devine was a close friend of one of the suspects brother but I heard the brother and him fell out last week I wonder if there is some sort of revange devine is trying out.

You can wonder and postulate as much as you wish.
But don't fool yourself into thinking you have any chance of swaying the opinion of objectively minded persons.

I am just saying what I heard. Did not see it for my self. Just like a lot of talk on this site all hear say.

Reading this thread. The mask did not just slip.
Its lying on the floor.

Raff:

"1). If the police were not involved in point scoring then why did they not just go down to the hospital talk to Mr Devine who it has been alleged by the Mc Cartney sisters, stated he could and would pick his and Roberts attackers out of a line up, and then start making arrests?"

But the police have been making arrests! They arrested five or six people within a day or two of the murder, presumably for questioning, but had to release them again. You might recall at that time that republicans attempted to block that series of arrests by orchestrating a riot. AFAIK they have subsequently arrested and then released one or two people until now (?).

There are plenty of very good reasons why the police haven't charged anyone until now :

- They need to gather the evidence required to put charges first, including collecting witness statements and forensic evidence

- Do you think republicans would have responded favourably to a kneejerk series of charges, given Devine's reputation ? It seems a bit like double standards on one hand to make allegations about a person's shady background, and on the other hand suggest that the police should have taken that person completely seriously and made arrests on the basis of his statement alone ?

- punishment attacks and assaults by paramilitaries on their "own" patch tend to be a no-go area for the police. It's possible that it took the public outcry for the police to launch a serious investigation. Compare with the murder of Andrew Kearney.

"If you do a bit of reading you will find out that PIRA do claim to have and appear in the past to have carried out investigations and what is now referred to as 'internal housekeeping' previously 'Kangaroo Courts' - I am not involved with them I can only go by what I have read."

What the IRA claim and what they actually do in real life are two completely different things. They say they're not criminals, yet they rob post offices and kill Irish police officers in the process. I bet it doesn't say anywhere in the IRA's rulebook that volunteers are allowed to knock over post offices, yet apparently it was a political action and republicans believe they are eligible for early release.

Do you think the actions of the people who killed Robert McCartney were congruent with the attitude of people who believed that they would be held accountable to disciplinary procedures ?

Regarding the police's errors :

"Was it the failure to talk to Mr Devine?"

- Devine isn't a reliable witness
- Remind me, how is it we know they didn't talk to him ?

"Was it the delay in interviewing those who admitted they were in the bar?"

Do you mean the republicans in the bar who aren't known for giving information to the police, or the other people in the bar who were told by republicans not to give information to the police ?

"Was it the near constant referrals to this being carried out by PIRA? I don't know!"

It was carried out by PIRA members, the intimidation campaign against witnesses was conducted by PIRA members, and the PIRA itself implemented it's own "disciplinary procedures". This murder was a product of the PIRA's existence.

Comrade Stalin I take it you are listen the hear say when you talk about the intimidation campaign against witnesses. Because there is none has not been any and not likely to be any other than making people go forward and tell everything they seen.

Can anyone on this site tell me if they know anyone that has been intimidate by the IRA or S/F in the Mc Cartney case. Or have you all just took what you have read in the paper or heard on the tv as the truth.

MARY,

i dont know whether there was intimidation or not in this case ,what i am almost 100% Certain is that the Southern newspaper columists have no sources in North ,republican or otherwise these stories I give the same if not less credence as i would the daily horoscopes in the indo which i have been told by a former employee are wrote out during a tea break , do you know anyone who has been interviewed by the sindo or any other free state newspaper?

Dear God, what utterly transparent and desperate attempts to muddy the waters.
Note the following - the character of the victim has no bearing in a murder, and the place to address questions surrounding a murder is in court. So why do some people seem so outraged that this matter has no gone to court?
Having failed every test so far the RM has one last chance now to demonstrate its fitness for a role in civilised society - namely, can it rein in the angry brigade while this trial progresses. If yes, I'll eat my hat. If no, I'll never laugh at a DUP voter again.

Fanny ,what are you on about .
Jerry Adams has called on all witnesses to come forward.he or the republican movement will not force people to come forward ,members involved have been expelled from both sinn fein and IRA.

THE only thing left for them to do is to round up anyone who has ever frequented magennisses tie them up and deliver them to psni station-- but that wouldnt suit you either would it then youd scream about due process and vigilantism

*sigh*

Amidst all this stuff and nonsense we have the statement of the McCartney family today.

Speaking outside court, Mr McCartney's sister Paula said: "The family is relieved that the first step in a very long process is over.

Mr McCartney's sisters and partner outside the court
Mr McCartney's sisters and partner were in court

"We are glad that it has arrived at the court because we vehemently believe that everyone is entitled to a fair trial and we hope that that is what is going to happen here."

The grace and dignity displayed by the family is remarkable.

c.stalin
- Do you think republicans would have responded favourably to a kneejerk (sic) series of charges, given Devine's reputation ? Where in the name of god do you see that in my post? It seems that you are trying to put words on my paper so to speak.

When you state "I bet it doesn't say anywhere in the IRA's rulebook that volunteers are allowed to knock over post offices" are you sure of that? You are very quick to point out in my post
When I ask about police interviewing Devine – “Remind me, how is it we know they didn't talk to him?”
Yet you make claims regarding the IRA rulebook.
If you are going to pull me on a point of order it looks very poor for you if you then go and do something similar.

"the intimidation campaign against witnesses was conducted by PIRA members" two words PROVE IT

Raff

Haven't the sisters themselves been talking of intimidation... isn't that a large part of their anger at SF/IRA?

Cheers
JGK

This was on Newshound:

New threat to McCartneys posted on web
(by Suzanne Breen, Sunday Tribune)

A threat to seriously injure the sisters of murdered Belfast man Robert McCartney, which was made last week on a website run by former Sinn Féin publicity director, Danny Morrison, is to be investigated by the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

The McCartneys said they were "shocked and very concerned" about the threat which they believe came from someone within the Short Strand.

The message said: "The McCartneys better shut the hell up with their lies unless they want seriously injured."

JGK

You will have to help me here, I don't see anywhere in the article where it is either SF or PIRA that have made the threat. In the main article the threat comes from someone calling themselves 'Only I MaTTer' not quite P. O'Neil.
The McCartney girls then went on to say better vetting procedures were needed. I am sure anyone on this forum could post what they wanted as a one off without it being the view of anyone else here, AND escape any detection. Another way for the anti-republicans to get a dig in perhaps?

This, as the McCartney’s claim and repeated by you, seems to have emanated from within short strand, are they/you therefore saying all people from short strand are in SF or PIRA?!

I am not saying the McCartney girls did not receive threats, all I am asking is that I can see the evidence that they come from the Republican Movement.

raff- what do you mean by the "republican movement"?
It's a flexible term. Do you limit it to those with an official affiliation in some way to either Sinn Féin and/or the IRA ? Do activities even by those officially linked to these organidsations have to be sanctioned in some way to count?

It may seem like nit-picking, but there are important implications in several cases...

Raff

I see what you are saying. I wasn’t trying to state this article suggested the threat came SF/PIRA directly. Neither would I suggest that all the people of Short Strand are in SF or PIRA. Apologies if that was received.

Evidence as to whether or not threats came from the Republican Movement, that is of course difficult. I have no direct evidence; who would have access? But there appears a lot of circumstantial:

In the March P O’Neill Press Release one of the issues was that the sisters… “raised concerns about the intimidation of witnesses. The IRA’s position on this was set out in unambiguous and categoric terms on February 15 and February 25. Before and after this meeting with the family, the IRA gave direct assurances on their safety to three named individuals who the family believe were the targets of intimidation.”

It seems bizarre that this should be discussed in such detail unless the intimidation was a fact?

In their RTE Radio Interview – end February - (I have read) the sisters talk of how every-day intimidation is common from IRA members and that specifically those involved in Robert’s death ‘strutted’ around the Strand making sure others knew they were still around and that talking would not be good for them.

Thirdly, why would the women say there was republican movement members involved in intimidation unless there was? What would their motive be? Surely having living in Short Strand all their lives they would know very well who was a member of what.
Anyway I don’t offer this as damning proof just how the balance of evidence works with me.

Finally, (and just in passing) it was interesting that on the Danny Morrison forum, the more the sisters kept talking about Robert and IRA involvement the more some people started to try to smear them… motives for standing for elections, taking money to travel from whom, them meeting Bush instead of Adams etc. I do think this is important; it is about the nature of what kind of republican movement represents the people that believe in a United Ireland.

Regards, JGK

garret
I assume that there was a political motive as there was throughout a very suspicious desire to criticise republicans especially in their trip to the USA

Why?

Are you serious or is this yet more sycophantic SF styled spin? If you are, aside from SF sycophants, you must the only person on the planet who thinks so! The objective view still holds and I restae my posting posting:-

"The sisters reponse is a natural one and I assume would have been no different in fervour and determination if the murder of their brother had been committed in different circumstances. "

In the case of secret and wide ranging organisations which murder, and which maintain the means to do so again, we are entitled to suspect that any action that serves their interest has been carried out or sanctioned by them, including outright terror and intimidation.

Some members and supporters of such organisations may feel or know this to be unjust for any one instance, but we know that many of them felt secrecy, murder and intimidation to be legitimate given their historical analysis. We also know that PIRA have on occassion lied, until they could lie no more.

So maintaining the capacity to murder and to secretly terrify rob and maim has a political penalty.

So it should.

If the maintenance of this capacity had any prospective benefit in achieving unity among Irish people there would be a corresponding political benefit, but this is now unlikely.

It is about the nature of what kind of republican movement represents the people that believe in a United Ireland.

Excellent point, one which many internet republicans seem unable to grasp as they feign misunderstanding why others would revile them or blanch in disgust at their commentary. It has nothing to do with being unionist, or British, or anti-republican (in fact many of those most disgusted by such commentary would consider themselves republicans), and everything to do with alarm at the type of mentality, and vision for the future, that engenders such comments contains.

It shows, much more clearly than the banal and meaningless platitudes espoused by leadership figures, that the society desired is extremely conformist; not only conformist but dictatorial: you must think like us or you are dammed. Those who step outside the boundaries are quickly punished, some violently, others via vicious character assassination, always consistently, repeatedly and with a zealousness that easily goes out of control and over the top. An Ireland of Equals? If that equality means everyone is to be forced to conform to some warped vision that this current body of the Republican Movement presents, perhaps. For tolerance shown to those who deviate does not exist.

In fact that lack of tolerance makes a mockery of everything Republicanism stood for, especially in a case such as the murder of Robert McCartney. The platitudes indicate that support for the family is the party line and that the family are entitled to justice, but the reality demonstrates that a wider concept of justice does not exist in the Provisional world. For it is the guard dogs of the Provisionals who determine what is justice and the answer always is that it is the IRA who is just and merciful: they and their members can do no wrong. So who does anyone think they are questioning the Republican Movement? And thus, the enforcement begins.

The blatant lies, the myth-making, the character assassination, the absolute refusal to countenance any alternative viewpoint, the willing blindness -- is this the product of the state they want to create, to impose on everyone else? Orwellian is not the word for it.

Excellent post AIOE
Seems like a case here of shepherds managing the flock, but doing so in a wolfish manner.
A good shepherd will not terrify his sheep.
That's ma sunday morning sermon ;)

An Ireland of Equals

"For tolerance shown to those who deviate does not exist."

Address your comments to unionists NOT Irish republicans. The unionists are the ones who are intolerant / intransigent.

"Its natural for Republicans to act in a defensive manner when attacked as most of our history has been spent in this fashion. I recognise that this savage murder of Robert McCartney has been used for political means. However, our reaction should have been complete compliance with the investigation and casting off immediately of all those involved. We allowed the movement to be tarnished by allowing the anti-republican agenda to focus on this ugly part of the republican family- cut it off and there ain't nothing to tarnish anymore."

"For tolerance shown to those who deviate does not exist."

Address your comments to unionists NOT Irish republicans. The unionists are the ones who are intolerant / intransigent.

Yes, sir, sorry, sir, it won't happen again, sir. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us. I will not deviate from the standard line: they are worse than us.

Etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam.

Must remember it is always them, never us.
Self-flagellate, too late?
Have I been identified
as outside
the border of acceptable?
Condemned, verdict in:

Your views, unpalatable
Go quietly now without a fuss
We repeat: don't mess with us.
Ours are guns that never rust.

Bad poetry on a Sunday morning, ahhhhhhhhhhh. For that alone I should be punished I am sure!

"However, our reaction should have been complete compliance with the investigation."

PSNI. The PSNI investigation.

garrett
My view is you can't pick and choose, like on a shopping trip, when you fancy working with the police, and when you don't.
As regards the mind control going on on both sides: its clear that keeping people in a constant state of fear pays dividends for the leadership, but not for the people.
I would like to see the reversal of this fear.
Perhaps only a popular revolt will achieve this.
ie both sides republican and unionist rise up against their respective "in-house" oppressors.
No longer fighting each other as previously, but together united against the tyranny of fear.

" yet due to their past convictions a whole raft of trades and professions exclude them, plus their opportunity to travel freely is curtailed. "

Tough shit-there is no excuse for sneaking up behind unarmed people and shooting them in the back of the neck- lying in wait to shoot (from a safe distance) a policeman or soldier- kidnapping and butchering perople to death -I`m not going to employ them (prod or mick) I refuse to work with them- I do not trust them -they can fester on the Dole for the rest of their lives.

A failure to disclose convictions to get a job would produce instant dismissal. How in any event will they explain away the blanks in the CV. The University of Long Kesh don`t cut it.
If you can`t do the time don`t do the crime. Let them look on it as a (Just?) price paid for their involvement in the struggle for freedom!!

Just stop, this is pathetic!

Barnshee - I don't think these people deserve any special treatment compared to other people who have committed serious crimes, but I would look at it from an additional perspective. Young people are still being sucked into the paramilitary world by the various organisations. It will send a dreadful message to them if it's announced that slates will be wiped clean - as if we are saying 'do what you feel is right at the moment, it won't have consequences for the rest of your life'.

Davros and barnshee
Have you not read, or just not understood the comments made : that it's the ex-prisoners who are doing the good work in their communities to foster peace and stop the kids growing up joining paramilitary organisations !!!

spirit-level - think about it mate .

Some ex-prisoners are doing excellent work. Some aren't. The one's doing this excellent work ? Good on them, they OWE society big-time. So the fact that their slates haven't been wiped clean obviously hasn't stopped them doing good works, has it ? Quite a few of them should thank God or their lucky stars tthat they aren't still behind bars where an awful lot of people think they still belong.

If I was a common or garden murderer still behind bars and facing decades more in Jail I'd be pretty hacked off that someone like the Shankill bomber is out walking the streets and making money.

Davs
I'm just observing my right to be positive, that's all.
You know me ;)

Sorry mate - I hope that didn't sound antagonistic :) I'm in favour of financial support being given to ex-prisoners' organisations that make a positive contribution.

One thing I meant to add - slate-wiping and amnesty for OTRs ain't in the Belfast Agreement and it's interesting that on the one hand SF tell us that nothing can be added to or taken away from the Agreement when it suits them but on the other hand have a shopping list they present every time
they are negotiating ....

TAL ;)

1) 'Surely having living in Short Strand all their lives they would know very well who was a member of what.'

only paula and bridgeen live here

2) I can't speak for Mary here (so please, mary, correct me if I'm wrong),but I did not see anywhere in her post regarding Bert McCartney's character (8.18) anything saying he deserved to die. I thought it came across as trying to make the point that people should be able to voice opinions against the McCartney's and Devine without their opinion being treated as somewhat 'second-class' or unimportant, or as sf or ira propaganda.

everyone has their faults, no-one is 'whiter than white'

ps, my 2) point was not a response to tgk (as 1) was, it was to a number of posters

I did not see anywhere in her post regarding Bert McCartney's character (8.18) anything saying he deserved to die.

Not overtly, that's true. Came across as the Rapist's "what did she expect dressed like that?" sort of comment ..... why else do you think this "new handle" suddenly popped up and posted such a character assassination ?

Good points posted by Stalin.

Vodka!
Comrade Sol

Raff, when was the IRA's policy of the death penalty for touts rescinded ?

You're insulting the intelligence of people here if you are seriously trying to claim that, politely or otherwise, the IRA never threatens people. It's very convenient to yell "prove it", knowing that the claim is essentially something that can never be proved.

"I am not saying the McCartney girls did not receive threats, all I am asking is that I can see the evidence that they come from the Republican Movement."

You're asking for something that can't be provided. If evidence for the threats did exist, what form do you think would it take ?

I believe the McCartney's version of events because I don't have any reason to believe that they have an objective of causing political damage to the republican movement. I don't think they have become unionists and I don't think they are paid lapdogs of the British. Certainly a side-effect of their campaign is that the republican movement will be and is being damaged politically damaged; but would you advocate that any person hold back from seeking justice just because the neighbourhood political party will lose votes over it ?

ssr,

Mary accused Robert McCartney of being quite a bad person. It isn't the first time that this accusation has been aired. Generally if there is a discussion about someone being murdered, and someone interjects to say that the dead person was some sort of criminal, abuser or otherwise nasty person, it sounds awful like they're trying to suggest that the murder took place for a good reason, don't you think ?

People quite rightly get upset when, during a discussion about the murder of Pat Finucane or Rosemary Nelson for example, other people bring up their alleged connections with the IRA, or his closeness to the people they did legal work for. This is the same thing.

To me there seems to be a lot of double standards at work here.

"To me there seems to be a lot of double standards at work here. "

This is the only part of your post I actually agree with. But the double standards are on the unionist side. When did they ever care about an Irish catholic unless they can make political capital out of it?

'But the double standards are on the unionist side.'

Come off it, a lot of people on BOTH sides in N.I. have got Ph.D's in the science of applying double standards.
Murder is wrong. There can be no qualifying that statement, nor justifying or explaining away the statements of anyone who attempts to imply that one particular murder victim is slightly less worthy of our compassion than any other, because any society in which a large number of people think in such an aberrant way is basically screwed.

What most murder victims families seem to want most is justice and that they are all equally entitled to, regardless of the circumstances. Compassion is a secondary issue. It is not something that can be demanded IMO.

Raff, when was the IRA's policy of the death penalty for touts rescinded ?

Sometime around the outing of Scappaticci, it appears.

Some one writes that the days of committing this kind of brutality are over. Get a grip will you. The 1998 GFA released into the community a pack of vile murderers and psychopaths. What about that girl Dorrian. Not one mention of her now. Off course her death was not being used by the establishment to bash SF and a money making scam by McCartneys sisters.

Live in the real world will you. An unfortunate fight broke out in a pub. Hopefully in the trial the real truth will come out and not just the lies that were peddled. McCartney was no Mr Innocent. So hopefully the lies and hypocrisy of the whole story will come to light.

A fight broke out in a pub. That is my take on it too. Get over it everyone.

I think ulsterman forgot that he was supposed to be a rabid anti catholic prod.

I guess a sockpuppets life is never easy.

when i pointed out that robert mc cartney was not the good person that the sisters and others are making out to be, did not mean i think he deserved to die.

i do think that he might have been just as capable of doing on other's as was done on him.

why would anyone in the republican movement want to protect and cover up for a family which seems to be riddled with informers and british agents provocatuer,not to mention the allegations of child sex abuse and statutory rape.

will the British government give justice to the members of IRA murdered by their agent in the Iras internal security unit.

they should have the decency to exonerate these volunteers wrongfully accused by their plant of informing- maybe the family mentioned above are getting legal advice from their inlaw stakeknifes team of handlers

"why would anyone in the republican movement want to protect and cover up for a family which seems to be riddled with informers and british agents provocatuer,not to mention the allegations of child sex abuse and statutory rape."

allegations is all there is give me fact

For me its a bit like the Catholic Church paedophile fiasco. There are those who attack the Church always and use such events to tarnish the organisation. It was the fault of the Church in not dealing with the scandals in a rightful way, handing over the paedophiles to the law and good riddance, that led to erosion in support for the Church.
This is what has been happening to the Republican movement with regards to this case. Kick out the perverted to save the movement. To suggest that McCartney is no saint is like the pervy priest saying the child displayed sexualised behaviour.
I do not want my movement tarnished by the actions of a few 'lifestyle republicans'.

Good post CC.

MARY,

DOES THE WORDs RUBY & scap mean anything to you

yourself and garrett- who described me and bill and macca as hard core unionists and loyalists are strange ones,how about the name Notarantonio-SORRY more than likely wrong spelling.

MARY,

DOES THE WORDs RUBY & SCAP mean anything to you

yourself and Napper- who described me and bill and macca as hard core unionists and loyalists are strange ones,how about the name Notarantonio-SORRY more than likely wrong spelling.

"allegations is all there is give me fact"

Sorry mary, I though that since you were happy to post unsubstantiated allegations about Robert McCartney that you were happy to accept the same level of proof against republicans, no?

my APPOLOGIES TO GARRETT ,put your name in first reply to mary instead of nappers my mistake

well said clady cowboy

I knew Ruby and I know scap I also knew Robert Mc Cartney. Because of this i think I would have a better knowlage than reading anything in the papers

when you next talk to Scap tell him that I and an awful lot of others hope to sone read in your posts that you knew him too,how does he spend the judas money Thatcher paid him for being a rat

I knew Ruby and I know scap I also knew Robert Mc Cartney

Jackanory, Jackanory, Jackanory .....

And I'm the Queen of Sheba ;)

Davros

I knew there was something special about you.

MARY,

just out of curiosity which of the three--Ruby,scap,Robert mc C.

did you like the best -in order of preference please,and give explanations as to reasons if you have no objections that is ,as only knowing of them from the news myself i would like to have an insiders knowlege of what these personalities were like=====I dont doubt for a moment that you knew them well

seeing you asked I know scap he is a family friend. Big Ruby was one of the best friends any one could ask for. as for Mc Cartney i did not know him that well I used to live in the strand and seen him about and with all small communitys you see and hear alot about people.

There has been very little mention of the part Devine played in the incidents inside the bar.

Did he not attack a patron with a broken bottle prior to being attacked himself.?

To c.stalin (sigh).

OK now LISTEN/READ CAREFULLY. You seem to keep misreading my posts. You are either very poor at manipulating peoples words to support your own argument, or so wrapped up in yourself that you think you know the inner workings of people.

I did not say the McCartney girls were touts, I asked for proof that the threats were from SF or PIRA, you did not give it, I take it you cannot prove it! - I did not make the allegation so I don't have to.

As for the sisters being paid lapdogs, AGAIN I DID NOT SAY THIS. I will pretend you are doing this on purpose to try and drag me into some petty argument or other.

Thank god people realise that this was a pub fight that’s all, certainly more brutal than the vast majority but none the less a fight. Yes I know a man died but to portray this as an act of aggression by the PIRA is so typical of the anti republican elements within this society.

As for the "well they shouldn't have covered up argument" - these people were in a group together so we can take it as read that the alleged attackers/coverer uppers,(cant think of an appropriate word) knew each other, and, were helping each other out. Again to say this shows the PIRA are still active, etc, is a misleading line of reasoning.

Re: the prisoners, they, whether we like it or not, are not all psychopathic sociopaths. Some were young men and women caught up in conflict others genuinely thought they were trying to obtain noble goals, (and yes some were thugs and criminals). To keep them on the fringes of society as many 'mainstream' people want will not benefit our society; in fact I would suggest that a desire to keep punishing people is not a very healthy attitude.

Mary / Martin

Just read the posts above (8.42 and 8.59), did you forget which name you were using when asking yourself to answer your own question?

As TAFKABO said "I guess a sockpuppets life is never easy."

Raff

Am I correct in interpreting your post as telling us that it would be wrong to think the statement "this is IRA business", issued by members of the IRA, as somehow indiciative of being IRA activity?

Oh sweet Jesus, Please people, do not try to read between the lines, do not assume I am saying something other than what I type, what I have put down is what I am saying.

"this is IRA business", issued by members of the IRA, as somehow indicative of being IRA activity?

I stated that this was not an attack by the PIRA but rather a bar fight. It BECAME PIRA business when it was claimed that PIRA volunteers were involved in the fight.

According to a report in a sunday newspaper today,Brendan Devine was involved in a vicious assault on the brother of the man who is charged with his attempted murder.

The incident is alleged to have taken place in a city centre bar during the week.

Mr Dev