What about Ulster-Scotch?

Isn't that Bushmills????

What a scandalous waste of public money on gesture politics.

Disgraceful.

mmm, and Allister said : "what we have here is the outworking of a Gaelic ego-trip by those who thrive on a pretence of being deprived"

Nice one Brendan

A shameful waste of money that isn't going to create one extra speaker of the language. This is the EU's linguistic version of the "straight banana".

Henry, as you well know, that's neither 'working' nor 'official'... and it's not a 'language'.

Henry94: What about Ulster-Scotch?



No problem. Ulster-Scots speakers can get jobs translating EU documents into Irish. It's not as though anyone's actually going to read the stuff, is it?

Speaking of scandalous wastes of public money, that sums
up Northern ireland quite necely.

I'm split on the issue ... though I have zero problem with my tax money (or yours for that matter) paying for it.

It is both curious and instructive that at a time when Britain stands alone against the 24 other EU members on the substantial issue of the rebate, the unionist denizens of Slugger take such umbrage at a unanimous decision of the Council of Ministers.

Have you forgotten the sponges your fathers wore so proudly when a British Prime Minister expressed his frustration at the cost of keeping them.

Henry94: Have you forgotten the sponges your fathers wore so proudly


I don't know whether my dad wore a sponge. As a taxpaying employee of a profitable company he probably never felt Wilson's remark applied to him. Even the employees of an inflated civil service probably thought they did something useful most days.

But when the new EU policy draws 20 educated, enthusiastic Irish speakers from the Gaeltacht, what will they do that is any use to anyone? They will be on hand to translate occasional boring speeches from Irish, relieving their tedium most days by translating documents that hardly anyone wants to read, into Irish versions that no one will ever read.

If Tony Blair can hang on to the rebate, I expect he'll not mind the cost of a minor sop to small nations during some tricky negotiations...

The UK ratified the 1992 European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages in respect of Irish in NI. Ulster-Scots is considered a dialect and therefore not recognized as a minority language.

Bring back Yola!

what miserable soul could possibly have a problem with this initiative? I
rish is an extremely important part of the history and culture of everybody in the country. In real terms the cost is absolutely and completely negligible from an EU point-of-view.

A waste of public money, but in the grand EU scheme of things it's but a drop in the wine lake.

Henry94, any talk of sponges only serves to draw attention for the point being debated here. As it happens Northern Ireland gets funding from central government (in the same way that poorer regions of any country do), but when it comes to sponging off the EU, then no one (with the possible exception of the Spanish) can hold a candle to the Republic of Ireland. For the last decade it has the highest level of economic growth, for the last three years, its per capita GDP is higher than any other EU country and it is still a net beneficiary of the EU. Thankfully that position will change in the new budget arrangements.

The whole issue of the UK rebarte is worthy of a separate thread, and again only serves to distract from the issue being discussed here.

I notice that not one poster disagrees with my point, that the expensive token gesture is going to lead to one additional speaker of the language. When the language is in danger of becoming completly obsolete, this is a scandalous waste of money that could be used to help the language.

What a patthetic bunch of monolinguist bigots you all are. If the EU isn't about cultural diversity, what is it about?

And of course Mr Allister, a miserable little man of narrow vision, got it all wrong with regards to giving the credit to Sinn Féin. It's nothing to do with SF - though they did support the campaign - this was a campaign by Irish language activists which got thousands of people out on the streets of Dublin and all party support.

Now the agenda is to make the authorities in NI move to enact an Irish Language Act - a draft of which has been prepared by the umbrella Irish language organisation POBAL - available here hyperlink - in the North.

That'll soften your anti Irish language cough, Pete B.

OC

Surely there are better ways of promoting the language than translating unreadable documents that nobody will read.

The demand that all documents must be translated smacks more of a French style insecurity than a serious attempt to further the tongue

OC : "If the EU isn't about cultural diversity, what is it about?". Can I suggest you do a bit of surfing. The answer to your question can be found very easily.

DCB "A waste of public money, but in the grand EU scheme of things it's but a drop in the wine lake." True, but it is enough to push this waiverer on the EU constitution into the "no" camp. It is this kind or arrogant self serving waste of money that does more damage to the EU than anything else I can think of.

This is some of the best news that Irish speakers have got in a long, long time!

It's excellent and worth every red cent.

Creating new speakers? I have no doubt that it might do just that, but more importantly, will it contribute to stopping people from turning away from the language, I think it will.

Excellent.

What a load of pants. It'll keep a few Irish speakers in cushy jobs and make the government look like the saviours of Irish pride in Europe.

Pandering in the extreme, especially when even Irish language schools in the Republic can't maintain their interest in the language!

If the £3.5m made any kind of contribution to encouraging the wider use of, or appreciation of, the Irish language, a case could at least be made for it; however it will not - when will people realise that this kind of dirigiste approach does not work with languages, it hasn't worked in Ireland and it won't work in the EU.

And at a time when there is a crisis of confidence and connection with the European institutions, this is exactly the kind of exercise in mutual back-scratching between unaccountable mandarins that has alienated so many EU citizens..

I have received 7 press releases from TDs, MLA's and Senators welcoming this decision. Not one of them contains any gaelige - sez it all really!

Nonsense Beano, a chara, pure nonsense.

It was only last year that the last county not to have a Gaelscoil opened one up. The language is going from strength to strength.

There certainly does exist a problem in the traditional Gaeltacht areas, however, people are receiving more qualifications in those areas and moving out of them too.

Moves like this will challenge the idea that many people in the Gaeltacht have had (including my parents and grandparents) that Irish will hold them back and keep them out of jobs or make them seem backward.

Moves like this will raise peoples self-confidence and self-respect as Irish speakers in the areas that suffer so badly from lacking in those departments.

The reason that Irish is now accepted in the EU as official is not tokenism. I am a native speaker of Irish and a resident of the EU. This new move shows that my native language has as much worth as any other in the EU whereas up until now I had been a speaker of a 'non-language' something second class only to be spoken of fondly by poets and fiddlers.

I speak Irish at home, at work and with my friends and no, I don't live out on some wee island somewhere.

Oh, and by the way, there are many more jobs for Irish speakers other than translating and interpreting. Anyone who is clued in will no that there is an Irish language sector of business which is growing too.

Go maire an Ghaeilge an fuath atá libh uirthi!

Oul Dub,

Presumably the press releases were for English speaking publications? If I was writing an article/press release for the Irish Times about the German Language, would I write it in English or German.

Bíodh ciall agat - Wise up!

No doubt the Minister for the Gealtacht already has in mind who is going to get these useless jobs in Brussels.

Beano, you make an excellent point. I was going to put this on the recent thread on Irish and the exams, but seeing as this thread is more current I'll post it here.

One of my best friends is currently working as a scrutineer in the Leaving Cert in a well know boy's college on Dublin's Northside. He loves the gig, but the one thing that he doesn't like is that on almost every subject, the vast majority of the students are working on their papers until the very last moment, meaning that he has to be quite foreceful in collecting the papers etc.

I say "almost every subject" because there is one exception ; Irish/Gaelic. He said that every student has to sit in the examination hall for at least a half an hour for their paper to be graded. However between a quarter and one third of the boys left the exam hall once this period had passed. By the hour mark half the students were gone, and there were less than five left at the end of the 2.5 hours.

He said it was obvious talking to people aftrwards, that for the vast majority of students today, Irish is one of those things you have to do, which you don't want to, and once you leave the exam hall, you will never use again. What a hopeless waste of good teaching time.

I think it's easy to be negative when you see nonsense like yesterday's decision. It is typical of the kind of token gesture (like compulsory Irish in schools) that actually does the language more harm than good.

If people were interested in the genuine good of the language, here are are things I think would be far more effective.

1; End compulsory Irish after Junior Cert level, but reward those those that do other subjects in the Leaving Cert through Irish with a 10% points bonus. That way Irish just isn't seen as existing in a bubble and those that don't want to supply the language, don't have to.

2; All Gaelic football and hurling matches carried on radio and television to have commentary in Irish only.

3; Provide special funding to film and television makers and musicians who work in the language and then promote their work overseas.

4; Move the Dept. of the Gaeltacht to the Gaeltacht!

5; Make an ability to speak the language (even at a very low level) an essential part of a new earned citizenship process.

Quality cynicism 'Friendly Fire' - well done.

So you don't expect the jobs to be advertised and interviewed for? The fact that there is a high level of expertise and skill needed for the job should inform you that you can't just hand these jobs to someone who is fluent in a language or are you a monoglot who doesn't understand the difficulies and intricacies of translation and/or interpreting?

By the way, it's spelt 'G A E L T A C H T' although what you've written is a flattering play on words for the beautifully scenic areas. Well done. Maybe you have the skills and should apply.

The issue a lot of people have is that Irish is perceived to be used both as a political and cultural tool. There's a difference.

In NI it is often endorsed for political reasons by republicans to reinforce community and, at the same time, reinforce distinction and division. It's draped in thoroughly revised historical claptrap and its poster people are hardly models of progression. The average Celtic-shirted Spide can speak but three words - Tiocfaidh Ar La. Or, on an exceptional day, you might even get an Oglaigh na Eireann.

In the more reasoned Republic it's more often used in a purely cultural way, with less aggression and with more impressive linguistic passion.

Opposition to it seems to be based largely on the experience of the former, and that's understandable. When there's official endorsement of flying the Union Flag, republicans see this as a political statement and they oppose it on those grounds. When street signs go up in Irish on gable ends decorated with the colours of Provo ejaculate, they think anyone who raises an eyebrow is a bigot.

There are a great many Irish speakers who put a great deal of love into raising the profile of the lingo, and fair play. This is a great result for them. But they'd be wise to realise it's a hot potato, and opposition is a symptom of the NI context. I'm sure they do, but way down South I'm sure they don't much care. Why would they?

I can't get too moved by the progression or otherwise of the language. Many of us of all shades of opinion will have distant relatives who spoke it to some extent or other. Unionists would spend their time better by seizing it - like English, it's part of the heritage of this land - rather than allowing themselves to fight a bad-tempered, public, losing battle in opposing it. And as for Ulster Scots, give us a break.

And one other point: Scotch is whiskey (whisky). Scots is a thing of Scotland.

Baluba,

Your presumption is totally wrong!

The releases were sent to preset mailing lists that include all sorts of media outlets from print to radio to tv.
The point of the post was that these guys are no more interested in the issue than the man on the moon, but a mention in an article or a broadcast piece might keep them in well with the gaelgoiri in their constituencies.

What did any politician ever do for your gaelscoil only show up at the official opening to get his mug in the paper?

Bíodh ciall agat fhein - Wise up yourself!

Soapy, I agree with much of what you said there and it is sad that the language is perceived to be hi-jacked by Republicans only using it for political gain.

However, the nature of language is that it is something spoken generally by people. By spides, hippies, priests, lawyers, milkmen, republicans and believe it or not, some Unionists etc etc

Presuming that someone wearing a tracksuit only speaks a language because they are seeking to use it aggressively is more than a bit cynical.

Republicans have every right to protect the language and many do speak it. Should they abandon it in case they offend someone? I found it funny when told once that it was OK for Shinners from 'the South' to speak Irish, but ones in the North are only doing it to get up Unionist noses. Simply not true. It seems that anything republicans support is repugnant to others anyway.

Of course Irish Republicans are going to identify strongly with the Irish language, but that should not mean that the anti-Midas touch should happen to the language for others. 'THEY speak it, so it must be evil!'

This is what really gets up many Irish speakers noses, especially in the North, that people assume they speak the language for political reasons. I speak it because it was the first language I ever spoke. Am I a republican? Yes. Am I a Republican because I speak Irish? No. Am I an Irish speaker because I am a Republican? No.

Fair enough Baluba. But I'm only saying that it is used politically by republicans who can barely speak a word of it. That's a fair point.

And I'm not saying anyone should abandon it at all. Far from it. We'd all be better off, ideally, if we could all speak it. It wouldn't be a divisive issue then, and genuine proponents of the language would be chuffed to bits (although I realise that's a far flung idea). I'm just saying that opposition is understandable when it's directly associated with militaristic republicanism - rightly or wrongly.

As I say, I'm not taking much of a stand on this. All languages are, in themselves, good. The more languages of whatever kind are learned by more people, the better.

Hilarious stuff,

Unionists, the most lazy, misbegotten, self-aggrandizing group of misfits in Europe, who have inveigled their way into the UK, but who do nothing but sap money and energies from the Irish and British governments, are complaining about Irish.

At least the people who speak Irish have a dynamic economy and contribute a great deal more than this shower of lethargic incompetents who somehow imagine their "Northern [in]Efficiency" is something to boast about.

Ní thuiginn an bó ach an bata! You should all have to fend for yourselves and stop pulling and the British taxpayers' apron strings. And by the way, they don't even want you and who indeed does.

Oul Dub,

My local politician did an awful amount of work for us actually and still does.

The fact that press releases were in English still doesn't prove anything at all. So what if the ministers involved didn't use Irish to praise the move. Maybe they don't speak the language. Maybe the target audience was English-speaking.

Everytime you speak about Irish or on Irish issues it doesn't have to be in Irish.

Again, if I was discussing the French rules in media of not using bastardised English words, would I be obliged to discuss it in French?

Just because the discussion about Irish wasn't in Irish doesn't prove anything. Face it, you are just being cynical.

Should I start writing my postings here in Irish? No, because the forum is English-speaking, but we can perfectly well discuss the issue.

I come from the unionist tradition in Ireland, and I have to say that what OC says is unfortunately true. A bit of an embarrassment, really, and very defensive. All power to local, regional and national traditions, including the Ulster-Scots dialect, that I miss and treasure very much.
A necessary condition for reconciliation on this island is respect. The writers on this topic should show a little more, and recognise what a beautiful and unique creation the Irish language (any language)is, and a gift to us all. I would love the North to become bilingual.
It is infuriating that in this age of excessive consumption, promoted by limitless and tasteless marketing,that people are complaining about preserving and promoting an existing language.

I come from the unionist tradition in Ireland, and I have to say that what OC says is unfortunately true. A bit of an embarrassment, really, and very defensive. All power to local, regional and national traditions, including the Ulster-Scots dialect, that I miss and treasure very much.
A necessary condition for reconciliation on this island is respect. The writers on this topic should show a little more, and recognise what a beautiful and unique creation the Irish language (any language)is, and a gift to us all. I would love the North to become bilingual.
It is infuriating that in this age of excessive consumption, promoted by limitless and tasteless marketing,that people are complaining about preserving and promoting an existing language.

Refreshing stuff Michail.

I think in the long term Ulster-Scots will be of benefit-think of peoples ciriculum vita-s,every Northerner is instantly bi-lingual,What Northerner cannot put on a broad Balamena-hi accent and the Yanks would never realise that its all a big spoof if we went over there for work.

oul dub
"I have received 7 press releases ... Not one of them contains any gaelige"

I received 1 press release ... in Irish as well as English.

Keith
"the expensive token gesture is going to lead to one additional speaker of the language."

How do you know it won't? What are you basing this on?
Such gestures, showing respect to our language and putting in on a equal footing with other European languages, might well have a knock on effect in this country. If we see that others appear to value our language perhaps we might value it a bit more and take more interest in it.

"Irish is one of those things you have to do, which you don't want to, and once you leave the exam hall, you will never use again."

The same applies to an awful lot of subjects!
As far as the exams go, as you well know, the entire focus of the exams is points, getting points in the subjects that will get you the course you want. Indeed students would drop a whole lot more than just Irish if they could.

Interesting suggestions by the way. I'm surprised they came from you :)

From the Ulster-Scots Agency site:

The European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages entered into force for the United Kingdom on 1st July 2001. For the purposes of Part II of the Charter, the UK Government recognised that Ulster-Scots met the definition of a regional or a minority language, and is therefore committed to applying the objectives and principles of Article 7 of the Charter to the Ulster-Scots language. Article 7 provides: -

1. In respect of the Ulster-Scots language, within the territory in which the language is used and according to the situation of the language, State Parties shall base their policies, legislation and practice on the following objectives and principles: -

- The recognition of the Ulster-Scots language as an expression of cultural wealth;

- The respect for the geographical area of the Ulster-Scots language in order to ensure that existing or new administrative divisions do not constitue an obstacle to the promotion of the Ulster-Scots language.

- The need for resolute action to promote the Ulster-Scots language in order to safeguard it:

- The facilitation and/or encouragement of the use of the Ulster-Scots language, in speech and writing, in public and private life;

- The maintenance and development of links, in the fields covered by the Charter, between groups using the Ulster-Scots language and other groups in the State employing a language used in identical or similar form, as well as the establishment of cultural relations with other groups in the State using different languages;

- The provision of appropriate forms and means for the teaching and study of the Ulster-Scots language at all appropriate stages;

- The provision of facilites enabling non-speakers of the Ulster-Scots language living in the area where it is used to learn if they so desire;

- The promotion of study and research on the Ulster-Scots language at universities or equivalent institutions;

- The promotion of appropriate types of transnational exchanges, in the fields covered by the Charter, for the Ulster-Scots language if used in identical or similar form in two or more States.

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/europeancharter.asp

More power to the Ullans enthusiasts/speakers etc. This has nothing to do with Irish though. Two different 'spakes' and two different sets of circumstances'.

I don't think anyone even in the Tha Boord o' Ulstèr-Scotch is suggesting the same moves regarding EU recognition etc.

Incidentally, I called them once to get a guest speaker for a 'Cumann Gaelach' meeting in Queens once and was told that 'the fella who speaks it is away on holiday'.

Even Lord Laird and the bould Nelson Mc Causland don't speak it by theri own admission.

However, anyone with any linguistic experience/expertise will know that it is much more than just a Ballymena accent (Martin).

Respect for it doesn't hurt you.

Fraggle

Speaking of scandalous wastes of public money, that sums up Northern ireland quite necely.

Please explain why you think money spent on education, health, roads, transport, etc., in Northern Ireland is a “scandalous waste”.

Henry94

It is both curious and instructive that at a time when Britain stands alone against the 24 other EU members on the substantial issue of the rebate, the unionist denizens of Slugger take such umbrage at a unanimous decision of the Council of Ministers.

The fact that the decision was unanimous does not alter the fact that it will result in a scandalous waste of money.

Bootman

what miserable soul could possibly have a problem with this initiative? Irish is an extremely important part of the history and culture of everybody in the country. In real terms the cost is absolutely and completely negligible from an EU point-of-view.

In real terms the money would be better spent on any number of projects or causes. It could be used to provide clean drinking water in Africa. It is scandalous that Europe is so decadent as to be throwing away its excess wealth on gesture politics. There is no demand for translations of EU documents into Gaelic. And even if there were, there is no reason why documents couldn’t be translated on demand at a tiny proportion of the cost of this decision.

Olibhear Chromaill

What a patthetic bunch of monolinguist bigots you all are.

What a pathetic multilingual bigot you are.

Baluba

This is some of the best news that Irish speakers have got in a long, long time!

Why?

It's excellent and worth every red cent.

Why?

Creating new speakers? I have no doubt that it might do just that

How?

, but more importantly, will it contribute to stopping people from turning away from the language, I think it will.

How?

Baluba,

Im sure there is a lot more involved than just a Ballymena accent to speak it fluent,But for a begginner the old nordi accent is a great head start--and would be much easier to pick up than trying to acquire a working knowledge of Welsh.

BALUBA,

whowesh thee gooween aum proogreeshin neiceeli wud dar uoulstar Skats aumint tai

Baluba
"Respect for it doesn't hurt you."

Well said. There is a serious lack of respect when it comes to U-S.
Of course, as with Irish, the problem is partly politicisation of the 'langualect'.
But this is a whole other discussion...

Willowfield,

Please read my postings where I spelt it out. That will answer all your hows, whys and where fores.

Summary being: Language rights are human rights; people with see increased worth in the language (speakers and non-speakers) and it gives the language a larger platform. I already know two Portuguese, four German, one Dutch, one Russian and ne second generation Chinese who speak Irish. Larger platform - increased interest.

It's not rocket science if you take your blinkers off.

Maca, of course I cannot having some piece of obscure European legislation on fishing guidlines translated from Maltese to Irish or having some obscure edict translated from Irish to Latvian is going to generate more Irish speakers, just can it a well educated hunch. The people who will benefit from this are the civil servants who already have to have Irish before they can join the civil service. It's a self propograting gravy train of the worst kind. The only thing is does is to most sceptics of the most pro-Euopean people like myself.

As for "The same applies to an awful lot of subjects", I totally agree, but you are not forced to study other subjects. Only English and Maths are also compulsory and those are both needed throughout your life.

As for my proposals, I think that these are practical steps that actually might help. Tokenism clearly doesn't as we've seen in the past.

Baluba

Please read my postings where I spelt it out. That will answer all your hows, whys and where fores.

None of your postings spell it out.

Language rights are human rights

What "language rights"? What human rights?

people with see increased worth in the language (speakers and non-speakers) and it gives the language a larger platform.

What people will see "increased worth"? How do translations of Council of Ministers meetings give the language a larger platform? No-one will know nor care about such translations.

Now, why is it worth every red cent? On what do you base your calculation?

How will it create new speakers? And how will it contribute to stopping people from turning away from the language?

You seem to be looking from the wrong end of the telescope.

Keith
"of course I cannot ... generate more Irish speakers"

You're missing the point, on purpose I suspect. It's about respect, in my opinion, and treating it as an equal European language. It doesn't even get such respect here on Slugger.

"I totally agree, but you are not forced to study other subjects"

Yes you are. All subjects are compulsory until Intercert, then after that you have *some* degree of choice. Very limited choice. You are also limited in that if you want to go to college you must take most of these subjects at higher level as the focus is on getting points. This is the reason many drop to lower level Irish for the LC, so they can focus on getting the points they need. The whole system is crap, IMO.

"I think that these are practical steps that actually might help"

So do I (with some reservations) i'm just surprised they came from you as I would even say 1 or 2 of them are quite "extreme" :)

Willowfield,
You can always be counted on for abuse rather than argument in that petty little sectarian world of yours.

When the decision is already made there seems no point in debating it again. This reminds me of the common film scene where someone is left shaking their fist at a train leaving the station while the hero waves back at them.

In this case of course it's a gravy train.

Olibher Chromaill

You can always be counted on for abuse rather than argument in that petty little sectarian world of yours.

1. I can't always be counted on for abuse. Indeed, I rarely engage in it.

2. The "abuse" you refer to was, in fact, a direct and deliberate imitation of your own "abuse", the point of which was to draw attention to it. By identifying it as abuse, therefore, you merely identify your own abuse.

3. The above comment in itself is abusive.

4. I don't have a petty little sectarian world. Perhaps those who are so quick with the kneejerk accusations of "sectarianism" are the ones living in the sectarian world? Take some time out and think about it.

Very good, Henry.

Fair enough Willowfield, I'll spoon-feed you.

Human Rights are standards that are due to human beings despite opinion, prejudice or evaluation. There are different 'generations' of human rights. 'Language Rights' are defined in the second generation. These 'rights' afford protection and promotion for that language, basically meaning that a person deserves to be dealt with in their indigenous language OR their language of choice. This move in the EU fits the bill.

Again, the increased worth will be seen by speakers and non-speakers alike who have some connection to the language or others who express interest. The fact that it is in the press all over the EU today shows that it has a raised platform. People are reading about it.

People who read Irish more comfortably than English (of which there are many although many on this thread will laugh and reuse to believe it) and those who PREFER to read in Irish will be glad to have this info available to them.

It is worth every red cent because it recognises the aforementioned language rights for Irish speakers. Economically, I would not be so arrogant as to compose some nonsense calculations that some have already done on this thread. Yes, it will have to be paid for. So do all the sandwiches that are provided for our rotund EU ministers. So what.

It will create new speakers because it will be seen as a language of worth by some of those who would be encouraged to think otherwise. It will raise interest in Europe. You may not know this, but Irish is available as a subject in Berlin and Hamburg Uni, in Paris, in Oslo, in Jerusalem and many other places already. It will help to arrest the turning away from the language by those (as I already said) already have the language or are learning it and see it as a road to nowheresville. I kept it on and have a great career using it.

Pádraig Ó Céidigh uses it in his business and he is a mildly successful man too (in fiscal/business/capitalistic success terms). He is not alone.

How on Earth could a move like this do anything other than good for the language? The only people who will be discouraged from the language by this move, I would suggest, are thse who already hold it in some contempt.

Anything else?

All joking aside,I think Ulster Scots should be encouraged in that--it is imprtant to protect our parocial and regional identities ,with Irish unity pending our local ways and dialect/slang should be kept alive.

Every time there's a topic on the Irish language Willowfield can be counted on to come in with illinformed rantings about 'irish being a dead language' etc. This is the type of kneejerk sectarianism that informs him - he couldn't be arsed going out and looking for the evidence to back up his cause - or disprove it. I was making a general comment about the usual negative sentiments being expressed by Willowfield and others about the Irish language, all as poorly informed as one another, rather than directing abuse at him in my original comment.

If he keeps on repeating the old mantras ad nauseam, he shouldn't expect us to believe him eventually. I and many others like me live in a bilingual (at least) world. He lives in a monolingual sectarian sub province where ignorance is celebrated.

This applies to all those who constantly rehearse the tired old arguments about Irish language - they have never got it. Irish is growing as a language - not declining - but then again these are people for whom the glass is always nearly empty. They deserve no better.

Baluba

Human Rights are standards that are due to human beings despite opinion, prejudice or evaluation.

I know what human rights are. I asked you what human rights you were referring to.

There are different 'generations' of human rights. 'Language Rights' are defined in the second generation. These 'rights' afford protection and promotion for that language, basically meaning that a person deserves to be dealt with in their indigenous language OR their language of choice.

Please quote which human rights you are referring to, and the source. Try to be specific.

Again, the increased worth will be seen by speakers and non-speakers alike who have some connection to the language or others who express interest. The fact that it is in the press all over the EU today shows that it has a raised platform. People are reading about it.

So you think it is worth millions of euro annually to get a story in a newspaper? Not very convincing. That would seem to cement the argument that it is mere gesture politics: the worth is not inherent to the provision of translation services, but merely in the gesture.

People who read Irish more comfortably than English (of which there are many although many on this thread will laugh and reuse to believe it) and those who PREFER to read in Irish will be glad to have this info available to them.

Will they? How many people want to have EU documents available to them in any language, never mind Gaelic? Very few. How many Gaelic-readers will wish to read EU documents in Gaelic? Twenty? Ten? Any? There will be next to no demand. Be honest with yourself.

Provision for such demand, should it exist, however, can be made without wasting millions of euro on a gesture: simply translate the documents on demand.

It is worth every red cent because it recognises the aforementioned language rights for Irish speakers.

Which specific language rights do you refer to, and how does it recognise them?

Economically, I would not be so arrogant as to compose some nonsense calculations that some have already done on this thread. Yes, it will have to be paid for. So do all the sandwiches that are provided for our rotund EU ministers. So what.

So what? There is a duty and an obligation on public institutions to spend money wisely, and not to waste money. Providing sandwiches is not a waste: ministers have to eat. Spending money on translations for which there is no need and no demand, and which no-one will ever read, is a waste.

It will create new speakers because it will be seen as a language of worth by some of those who would be encouraged to think otherwise.

Do you really believe what you write? You really think that people will choose to learn Gaelic because EU documents are translated into it? Sorry, but that seems far-fetched. Is your claim based on any research or evidence?

You’re looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

It will raise interest in Europe.

How?

You may not know this, but Irish is available as a subject in Berlin and Hamburg Uni, in Paris, in Oslo, in Jerusalem and many other places already. It will help to arrest the turning away from the language by those (as I already said) already have the language or are learning it and see it as a road to nowheresville. I kept it on and have a great career using it.

You mean by providing jobs for Gaelic translators?

How on Earth could a move like this do anything other than good for the language?

It may do a micro-unit of good for the language, but that is not the point. I’m unaware of anyone claiming that it will do harm to the language, or that will not do a micro-unit of good. The point is that it is a scandalous waste of money, i.e. it is not worth spending millions of euro in order to realise a micro-unit of good. It’s complete nonsense: gesture politics at its worst.

The same rights can be achieved by spending a tiny proportion of the proposed millions.

The only people who will be discouraged from the language by this move, I would suggest, are thse who already hold it in some contempt.

No-one’s claiming anyone will be discouraged from the language. Stop avoiding the issue and stop misrepresenting those who question the decision.

Oilbhéar Chromaill. I was born in Willowfield Gardens and I'm still waiting for willowfield to say something I can agree with, just for old time's sake. But the wagons are circled and the injuns are learning Irish!

Just one more thing about so-called gesture politics. A more positive term to use would be symbolic politics. Symbols are important and ancient aspects of all human societies. The positive symbolism involved in this decision is not microscopic, which is why,I suspect Willowfield is getting so animated.

Baluba posts: People who read Irish more comfortably than English (of which there are many although many on this thread will laugh and reuse to believe it) and those who PREFER to read in Irish will be glad to have this info available to them.

Willowfield responds: Will they? How many people want to have EU documents available to them in any language, never mind Gaelic? Very few. How many Gaelic-readers will wish to read EU documents in Gaelic? Twenty? Ten? Any? There will be next to no demand. Be honest with yourself.

Provision for such demand, should it exist, however, can be made without wasting millions of euro on a gesture: simply translate the documents on demand.

So Willowfield's solution is to translate documents on demand - now there's a thought. You employ people to translate documents and they sit on their hands until someone asks them to translate something. That's outside the box thinking alright.

The fact is that only relevant documents are going to be translated - ie documents to do with Ireland and important documents - such as the Constittuion etc.

The EU, like thousands of administrations and governments all over the world, produces mountains of documents no one reads in any language. That's not an argument against making Irish an official language but is an argument for making the EU more relevant.

The Irish language shouldn't be disadvantaged - which it was in comparison to other national languages of other member states - because of difficulties in getting the EU message across. Methinks that Willowfield thinks his Christmas and his birthday have come together with the confluence of the stories about the EU and the Irish language.

What Willowfield has to get his head around and fast that this decision is going to add momentum to a campaign for an Irish Language Act in the north. The consultation is already underway on this legislation and the result will be WHEN (rather than if) it happens is that Northern Ireland will become an official bilingual sub province.

Olibhear Cromwaill

Every time there's a topic on the Irish language Willowfield can be counted on to come in with illinformed rantings about 'irish being a dead language' etc.

I would respectfully ask that you desist from lying. I have never once claimed that Gaelic is a “dead language”, never mind done son on every topic about the language. In seeking to condemn others, you merely expose yourself as “ill-informed”. If you are incapable of joining in the discussion without engaging in personal abuse, please do not participate.

This is the type of kneejerk sectarianism that informs him

I have not engaged in any “kneejerk sectarianism”: if I had, you would be able to point to it and demonstrate how it was either “kneejerk” or “sectarian”. You can’t, because your own accusations are themselves examples of the “kneejerk sectarianism” about which you complain.

- he couldn't be arsed going out and looking for the evidence to back up his cause - or disprove it.

I was making a general comment about the usual negative sentiments being expressed by Willowfield and others about the Irish language, all as poorly informed as one another, rather than directing abuse at him in my original comment.

You made an abusive comment about those who queried the efficacy of the decision, based not on what anyone said, but on a “kneejerk sectarian” assumption about such people’s motives. I replied in kind – deliberately to expose the abusive and “kneejerk sectarian” nature of the comment.

If he keeps on repeating the old mantras ad nauseam, he shouldn't expect us to believe him eventually.

I don’t repeat old mantras ad nauseum. Logically, then, it would not be possible for me to keep on doing so.

I and many others like me live in a bilingual (at least) world. He lives in a monolingual sectarian sub province where ignorance is celebrated.

Again, your sectarian abuse is noted. My original tactic was to respond in kind to this abuse in an attempt to highlight it to you. This didn’t work. I now resort, again, to respectfully requesting that you desist from engaging in sectarian abuse.

Deal with what people actually say, not with what your sectarian prejudices lead you to believe they say.

It's not often I would imagine myself coming along with the opinions of someone named Oilbhéar Chromaill, a chara, but good points.

Fair play to you too Michail.

I think I've said all I want to on this thread and am generally not inclined to stand banging my head against a wall anyway.

I'll just go back to my wee Irish-speaking world and await some riveting EU reports in my native language. Ye never know, I may even be inclined to read them now.....

Go ndéana A mhaith daoibh.

Oops I should have written the "Spending money on Gaelicis a scandalous waste of money" line rather than the "Irish language is dead" one.

It's all the same Willowfield. Irish is the first national language of Ireland and is now, finally, recognised by the EU as an official working language. You can't stand anything Irish getting such recognition anywhere. That's the real reason you object and that's why you merit 'sectarian' when I'm describing you.

Bilingual is coming to a sub province near you - no it's already here.

I don't take back one word of what I said in the above post about you. Your rehearsal of the anti Irish mantra in the face of mounting evidence which shows that Irish is a living and growing language here in the sub province and throughout Ireland convinces me that you're just an irreformable cretin.

OC,

As regards the language act in the North, it'll be interesting to see what comes out of the Pobal meeting this afternoon in the Cultúrlann in Belfast. Do you know about it? Robert Dunbar and Wilson McLeod as guest speakers.

Willowfield: when you ask which language rights I have to wonder what exactly you want from me. Do you want me to saw nos 3 - 6 or something. Rights as such are abstract. Language Rights refer to protection of indigenous languages from discrimination, what more do you need? Some kind of book and page reference? The phrase is in the public domain and easily found in any general Human Rights discursive. If it's a list of references you want, OF COURSE, I can't be arsed going and getting them.

So Willowfield's solution is to translate documents on demand

Yes. Perfectly sensible: meets the demands of Gaelic-speakers without wasting millions employing a squad of “Father McKenzie” translators translating documents that no-one will read.

You employ people to translate documents and they sit on their hands until someone asks them to translate something.

Why would you do that?

The fact is that only relevant documents are going to be translated - ie documents to do with Ireland and important documents - such as the Constittuion etc.

So why are 20-30 translators to be employed?

Methinks that Willowfield thinks his Christmas and his birthday have come together with the confluence of the stories about the EU and the Irish language.

Your sectarian prejudices are exposed again. Please desist.

willowfield,

could you be a bit more specific which of the Gaelic languages you are referring to, Irish or Scottish?

Everybody else is talking about Irish, but you are not making it clear which one you are referring to.

Sorry willow,

I came to this thread quite late and don't have time to go back over everything.

I saw "Gaelic" and "Father McKenzie" and assumed you were talking about Scottish Gaelic. I realise my mistake

I can also see that, due to your political prejudices, you have a problem using the word Irish to describe the language.

Olibhear Cromwell

Oops I should have written the "Spending money on Gaelicis a scandalous waste of money" line rather than the "Irish language is dead" one.

Again, I would beg of you: please stop lying and misrepresenting. At no time have I ever made such a statement. If you are unable to engage honestly with people, then please don’t bother participating in the discussions.

It's all the same Willowfield. Irish is the first national language of Ireland and is now, finally, recognised by the EU as an official working language. You can't stand anything Irish getting such recognition anywhere. That's the real reason you object and that's why you merit 'sectarian' when I'm describing you.

PLEASE KEEP YOUR SECTARIAN PREJUDICES TO YOURSELF and stop attributing your prejudices to others.

I don't take back one word of what I said in the above post about you.

In that case, goodbye. There is little point in debating with a closed sectarian mind, who chooses personal abuse and sectarian prejudice over reasoned discussion.

Your rehearsal of the anti Irish mantra

Zzzzzzzzzz

Baluba

Willowfield: when you ask which language rights I have to wonder what exactly you want from me. Do you want me to saw nos 3 - 6 or something.

I want you to cite them. Are they, for example, in the European Convention on Human Rights? The UN Declaration?

Rights as such are abstract.

Rights can and do take legal form. Indeed, such form is necessary if rights are to be meaningful. Such form is also evidence that the right in question has some kind of currency and shared understanding.

Language Rights refer to protection of indigenous languages from discrimination, what more do you need?

I have already asked you to quote the source. Why are you being so evasive?

I take it from your failure to clarify your point about the newspaper articles as an admission that the real worth of the decision is merely as a gesture.

I also note your failure to respond to the very reasonable point that provision for any demand to read EU documents in Gaelic can be made without wasting millions of euro on a gesture, i.e. by translate the documents on demand. This would also maintain the rights which you refer to, yet are so reluctant to cite.

Biffo

I could you be a bit more specific which of the Gaelic languages you are referring to, Irish or Scottish? Everybody else is talking about Irish, but you are not making it clear which one you are referring to.

The title, the blog and the ensuing discussion should make it crystal clear to you.

Great news,
I now officially have one more official EU language and can apply for all those Brussels jobs I wasn't able to before.

Also, as Irish is the official language of the Irish state it is ridiculous it wasn't an official EU language.

As for wasting 3.5 million a year, peanuts I say. To put this in context, there will be 200 million spent on horse racing in Ireland in the next five years. 43% of the EU budget is spent on farmers.

Also on waste, Northern Ireland got three times as much EU money as the Republic and what did it do with it?

Nothing except feather a few North Antrim farmers' nests from what I can see.

Somebody should tell Gregory Campbell this as poor old Greg seems to think the Irish economic miracle is down to the begging bowl.

Willowfield,
your government voted for this as did mine and the other 23 EU countries so obviously your view that it is a waste is that of a tiny minority.

Who says democracy doesn't work? What you need to do now is start a lobby.

Step 1: Get a referendum to remove the Irish language's status as the official language of the Irish state.

Step 2: Get the majority to vote for the removal.

Sep 3: Get Irish government to petition for the language's removal as an EU language. Good luck.

Willowfield

"Biffo..

The title, the blog and the ensuing discussion should make it crystal clear to you."

Obviously you also have a problem with the English langage too, what part of "Sorry willow,
I came to this thread quite late and don't have time to go back over everything. I saw "Gaelic" and "Father McKenzie" and assumed you were talking about Scottish Gaelic. I realise my mistake" which part of that do you not understand?????!!!!!

I won't hold my breath for a reply!

Olibhear Cromwell

Oops I should have written the "Spending money on Gaelicis a scandalous waste of money" line rather than the "Irish language is dead" one.

Again, I would beg of you: please stop lying and misrepresenting. At no time have I ever made such a statement. If you are unable to engage honestly with people, then please don’t bother participating in the discussions.

at 12.49pm Wiillowfield wrote:
Bootman

what miserable soul could possibly have a problem with this initiative? Irish is an extremely important part of the history and culture of everybody in the country. In real terms the cost is absolutely and completely negligible from an EU point-of-view.

In real terms the money would be better spent on any number of projects or causes. It could be used to provide clean drinking water in Africa. It is scandalous that Europe is so decadent as to be throwing away its excess wealth on gesture politics. There is no demand for translations of EU documents into Gaelic. And even if there were, there is no reason why documents couldn’t be translated on demand at a tiny proportion of the cost of this decision.

How short your memory is Willowfield....
.

Anyway willow,

Whay have you got a problem with using the word "Irish"?

could anyone tell me roughly what year did Greencastle county Tyrone stop being a native Irish speaking district-I believe it was somewhere around early 1900's

Willowfield,

I thought I admitted to the laziness charge did I not? However, since you seem set to portray me as someone mouthing off with nothing to back up, you may refer to:

Article 14 in the European Declaration of Human Rights, and;

Article 2 in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Martin,

Ca'nt remember the exact date, but the last 'native speaker' to die in that area and be native to it was around the same time as the last in the Glens of Antrim and it was much later than that, in the 30s I believe. That is not certain however, I'm going on sketchy memory because De Valera visited each of them (including the last native speaker of Manx who died I think in the 40s/50s).

The cost is 3.5 Million Euro, since Ireland has applied for the same derogation as Malta as to which documents are translated.


This compares with 46 Million Euro for other official languages.


Perhaps we should tell the Germans, Swedes, etc. that it is a terrible waste of money translating documents into their languages? Most of them are fluent in English anyway.


Also, hand in hand with offical status goes the rights of MEPs to speak Irish in the Parliament without having to ask for permission in writing beforehand.


At least 4 of the Sixteen MEPs on the island of Irealand are fluent and frequent speakers of Irish. Séan Ó Neachtain (FF) has Irish as his first language. Jim Higgins (FG), Pronsias de Rossa (Labour) and Bairbre de Brún (SF) are fluent and frequent speakers - they can be heard on Radio na Gaeltachta anytime Europe is discussed. As can former and current politicians such as Alan Dukes, etc.


As far as I know, there is neither a radio nor television station, nor a newspaper in Ulster Scots. Irish has all of these.

aonghus [and anyone else who tried to point it out earlier]

Apologies for the mis-applied currency. I've edited the post accordingly.

Baluba,

thanks for that,so the Manx language is dead--which of the other languages was it most similar to-Irish,scots-gaelic,welsh or cornish

Manx was/is a Q or Goidelic Celtic language close to Irish and Scottish Gaelic.

Manx is still spoken and there are Manx schools, but the last person who was born and bred with it as their first language before any other is dead. The language is alive (if only barely).

aongus, the comparison with Ulster-Scots is spurious. No one is campaigning to have Ulster Scots made an official EU language. As it happens both Welsh and Scots Gaelic which both have more native speakers than Irish Gaelic aren't either. As we're at it the comparison to Swedish and German are also nonsense given the number of speakers of those languages (and I can tell you they don't all speak English!).

You mention a cost of €3.5m, is that a once off or a recurring charge?

Gerorge "Also, as Irish is the official language of the Irish state it is ridiculous it wasn't an official EU language.". Might I remind you that Luxembourg (a founder member of the EEC/EC/EU) does not have Luxembourgish as an official language despite the fact that it has more native speakers than Irish Gaelic.

Willowfield seems to be getting a bit of a hammering on this thread. With this in mind I found the following on Wikipedia…

The first sentence is very important...

"On balance, the overly enthusiastic promotion of Irish by the political and cultural elite from the 1920s did more harm than good to the language's longterm prospects. Instead of winning over people to the concept that they could speak Irish, they attempted to follow a process of saying they must speak Irish. That created a backlash that made many people more determined than ever not to. The language went into long-term decline, with Gaeltacht areas (exclusively Irish speaking areas) shrinking as the results of each national census returns were analysed. Today, most people, even in what are officially Gaeltacht areas, no longer speak the language. In a last ditch effort to stop the complete collapse of Irish-speaking in Connemara in Galway, new planning controls have been introduced to ensure that only Irish speakers will be given permission to build homes in Irish speaking areas. But even this may be too little, too late, as many of those areas have a majority of English-speakers, with most Irish speakers being bilingual, using English as their everyday language except among themselves. Compulsory Irish in schools remains a political shibboleth, with most politicians reluctant to raise the subject for fear of appearing unpatriotic.

In spite of all the efforts since Ireland achieved independence (some critics claim because of those efforts) the Irish language is in rapid and perhaps terminal decline in the Republic of Ireland. According to data compiled by the Irish Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, only one quarter of households in Gaeltacht areas possess a fluency in Irish. The author of a detailed analysis of the survey, Donncha Ó hÉallaithe, described the Irish language policy followed by Irish governments a 'complete and absolute disaster.' The Irish Times (January 6, 2002), referring to his analysis, which was initially published in the Irish language newspaper Foinse, quoted him as follows: 'It is an absolute indictment of successive Irish Governments that at the foundation of the Irish State there were 250,000 fluent Irish speakers living in Irish-speaking or semi Irish-speaking areas, but the number now is between 20,000 and 30,000.'

According to the language survey, levels of fluency among families is 'very low', from 1% in Galway suburbs to a maximum of 8% parts of west Donegal. With such sharp decline, particularly among the young, the real danger exists that Irish will largely become extinct within two generations, possibly even one. While the language will continue to exist among English speakers who have learned fluency and are bilingual (though mainly English-speaking in their everyday lives) Gaeltachtaí embody more than just a language, but the cultural context in which it is spoken, through song, stories, social traditions, folklore and dance. The death of the Gaeltachtaí would make a break forever between Ireland's cultural past and identity, and its future. All sides, irrespective of their view on the methodology used by independent Ireland in its efforts to preserve the language, agree that such a loss would be a cultural tragedy of a monumental scale."

Any thoughts?

Congal Claen.

A tragedy that hardly bears contemplation. It is in the 'Gaeltacht' where the greatest decline is happening no doubt.

My own experience recently has been, and anecdotally when I speak to residents of Donegal Gaeltacht, that people are starting to wake up to the advantages of bi-lingualism and have more pride in their native tongue which has been lacking.

Often young people in the Gaeltacht have been afriad that people will see them as backward, but TG4 and new developments on RnaG too are helping to turn this around. The use of Irish in tourism is starting to waken up some folk too.

People are moving out of the Gaeltacht also which causes problems, due to them getting higher education and moving for professional jobs, marrying people from outside the native area, emigrating etc so I think there will be a decline and then a plateau. Although this is obviously conjecture (of the glass half full kind), I certainly don't think it naive or unrealistic.

The 3.5 million euros is to be spent on translations each year, not a one-off.

And sorry but you can't use the fact that there are Irish language TV/Radio stations to back up a claim that the language is alive when these stations are state funded!!

The difference between Irish and German/Swedish or whatever other EU languages you care to mention is that all the others are the most popularly spoken languages in their home country as well as some (like German) being widely spoken in others.

Irish is not. It's position as official language of the Irish Republic is only a token gesture, and now the EU's pandering to it too!

While they're spending money on worthless crap like this they want us to give up our rebate? Not bloody likely.

Congal,
The number of speakers in the Gaeltacht stabilised for the first time between 1996 and 2002 so maybe somebody somewhere is now doing something right. Or else, just people lying to keep their language grants.

Keithm,
They should have official status too if they want it, but there is a slight problem for them as, by Luxembourg law, all legislation in Luxembourg is in French only.

Hi Baluba/George,

Also from Wikipedia, on TG4...

"Attempts have been made to offer some support for the language through the media, notably the launch of Raidió na Gaeltachta (Gaeltacht radio) and Teilifís na Gaeilge (Irish language television, called initially 'TnaG', now completely renamed TG4); both have had limited success. TG4 has offered Irish-speaking young people a forum for youth culture as Gaeilge (in Irish) through rock and pop shows, travel shows, dating games, and even a controversial award-winning soap opera in Irish called Ros na Rún (featuring, among other characters, an Irish-speaking gay couple and their child). Most of TG4's viewership, however, tends to come from showing gaelic football, hurling and rugby matches, and films in English."

I think the important thing is not to ram it down people's throats. That does more harm than good. It may have been better for the Republic to register Irish as the 2nd official language and have it adopted as a minority language through The European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. It's Official status within the Republic being the barrier to that route. We'll just have to wait to see how things pan out...

I mentioned Ulster Scots only because it was mentioned earlier in the thread, with the implication that it was at least as strong a language as Irish.


As for state funded broadcasters ... the BBC is state funded. Does that mean their viewership/listnership should be regarded as irrelevant?


TG4 gets TAM ratings of 3-5% for its Irish only programs. RnaG is not listed in the JNLR survey since they don't broadcast adverts - but they have a daily listenership of somewhere around 100,000.


I stand by my point on German/Swedish because people who are likely to deal with EU legislation will in fact be fluent in English. I have lived in Germany for 10 years, and worked with Swedes frequently.

Anyone seen or heard from Davros?

Congal,
believe it or not I fear that there is a new thing on the block which Wikpedia doesn't mention and which might help improve the chances of the Irish language in the coming years: snobbery.

At the moment, Gaelscoileanna are the vehicles of choice for a child's education by many middle-class parents with the result that there are waiting lists the length of your arm to get in.

In fact, if you want to get your child into a secondary Gaelscoil you better be a past-pupil or have had your child educated through the medium of Irish in primary school to have any chance.

Reasons? Less foreign children, more dedicated teachers, no fees. It's like going to Blackrock College without stumping up the cash or playing the Rugger.

This has completely changed from the 80s when I was in school when a middle-class parent wouldn't touch a Gaelscoil with a barge-pole.

Hi George,

"snobbery"

Interesting point. I've heard CoI schools in Dublin have similar waiting lists. Any truth in it from your experience?

Beano,
it is not a token gesture to those who have learnt the language, it is extremely important.

It means those who study Irish in school and do well can apply for EU jobs as it is taken as an official language. One of the criticisms is that you can't get a well paid job, well now you can.

As for pandering, the British government could have vetoed it but they voted for it too.

Secondly, it means that you can now do your European as well as your national business through Irish or English. This the wish of the Irish government, the elected representatives of the Irish people.

"While they're spending money on worthless crap like this they want us to give up our rebate?"

What do we call somebody who considers another culture or language to be inferior to his own Beano? Ah yes, a supremacist. Was that comment a slipup or did the mask slip?

Or how would you describe yourself? Any other lanaguages you consider "worthless crap"?

Just because something isn't of value to you, doesn't mean it isn't of value.

As for the rebate, at 3 billion pounds it is over one thousand times more money than the Irish funding, try compare like with like.

James Orr
No linguist would consider Ulster-Scots a minority language.I didn't realize the implementation bodies legislation had been breached.
Nothing wrong in considering it a variety of English.

Baluba; you applying for the job then?

Baluba; you applying for the job then?

Baluba is happily employed at the moment and lives between Australia and Ireland.

Baluba also does not have the skills required for such a job. I translated for a while, found it too stressful and sometimes completely beyond me.

Translation is a trade to be learned, practised and mastered before you can do it.

Thanks for the vote of confidence though FF.

George, well said.

Beano, that was both insulting and wholly disrespectful. But what should I expect other than that.

Baluba,
If a person had a good knowledge of one of these languages-Irish,Manx,Cornish,Brittany,scots gaelic,welsh---which of the others could he almost understand if spoken.

MD
"But the wagons are circled and the injuns are learning Irish!"

Best line I heard in quite a while. ;)

Keith
"the comparison to Swedish and German ... (and I can tell you they don't all speak English!)."

Anyone who is likely to read EU documents probably does speak English. And in my experience (of working with both Swedes & Germans) anyone who is educated has some English.

"Might I remind you that Luxembourg does not have Luxembourgish as an official language"

That's their problem.

Beano
"While they're spending money on worthless crap like this they want us to give up our rebate?"

It may be worthless crap to you but it's not to us. And I must say I find that statement insulting.

CC
"It may have been better for the Republic to register Irish as the 2nd official language and have it adopted as a minority language through The European Charter"

Why?? Irish is already in a better position that it would be if you just relied on the charter.

How would reducing its status help at all?

Martin
"If a person had a good knowledge of one of these languages-Irish,Manx,Cornish,Brittany,scots gaelic,welsh---which of the others could he almost understand if spoken."

Irish Gaelic & Manx are all related. Speakers of one of these *might* understand something in one of the other languages in this group. Gaelic came from Irish remember.
However these are totally different to Cornish, Welsh or Breton.

Maca,

thanks

Biffo

I saw "Gaelic" and "Father McKenzie" and assumed you were talking about Scottish Gaelic. I realise my mistake

Why? I would imagine Father McKenzie was Irish. Or at least of Irish stock.

I can also see that, due to your political prejudices, you have a problem using the word Irish to describe the language.

Please desist from making judgements about people based, not on what they say, but on your own sectarian prejudices.

Whay have you got a problem with using the word "Irish"?

I don’t. In fact, I use it often.

George

As for wasting 3.5 million a year, peanuts I say.

It’s not peanuts to the starving millions.

To put this in context, there will be 200 million spent on horse racing in Ireland in the next five years. 43% of the EU budget is spent on farmers.

Unjustified spending in one area does not justify it in another.

your government voted for this as did mine and the other 23 EU countries so obviously your view that it is a waste is that of a tiny minority.

It’s not obvious as a government vote at the Council of Ministers is not evidence that the vast majority of its citizens are supportive of it. It has even been known for governments to make decisions opposed by the majority of their citizens. But that is an irrelevant point, anyway, since an argument is not wrong merely because it is held by the minority. Such thinking is very dangerous.

Olibhear Cromwell
How short your memory is Willowfield....

This comment makes no sense, since the passage you quoted does not show that I said, as you claimed, that spending money on Gaelic is a scandalous waste of money.

I asked you to stop being dishonest. Yet you continue.

Baluba

I thought I admitted to the laziness charge did I not? However, since you seem set to portray me as someone mouthing off with nothing to back up, you may refer to: Article 14 in the European Declaration of Human Rights [sic], and; Article 2 in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Neither of those sets out the language rights to which you seem to refer. Both simply state that the rights contained within each charter apply to everyone regardless of language. They make no mention of any particular language rights.

In any case, the language right to which you do refer, whether it has any legal form or not, would be met by my very reasonable proposal that provision for any demand to read EU documents in Gaelic can be made without wasting millions of euro on a gesture, i.e. by translating the documents on demand.

Your failure to respond to the point is noted.

While I have no problem with Irish being recognised as an important language, especially for the few thousand who may speak it in the home as a first language, I am wondering, apart from being such a waste of money, and who will actually read these documents translated into Irish, is it not discrimination against the tens of millions of people in Europe who speak Chinese, Urdu, Hindi or Arabic, etc. as a first language? Should they too not have all the documents translated into their languages?

Willow
"the language right to which you do refer ... would be met by my very reasonable proposal that provision ... can be made ... by translating the documents on demand."

Your post makes no sense. How does that address the 'language right'? Someone has the right to use & be dealt with in their own language and you want to give them mail order documents?

Anyway the "documents on demand" suggestion is nonsense.

6cp
"apart from being such a waste of money"
in your opinion,,,

"is it not discrimination against the tens of millions of people in Europe who speak Chinese, Urdu, Hindi or Arabic, etc. as a first language?"

Just curious, how long have you been highlighting this discrimination? How many years have you been campaigning for language rights for these minorities?

maca

Your post makes no sense.

It does.

How does that address the 'language right'?

By enabling people to read documents in Gaelic if that is their first language.

Someone has the right to use & be dealt with in their own language and you want to give them mail order documents?

I see nothing wrong with mailing them the documents. Emailing would be cheaper, though. And quicker.

Anyway the "documents on demand" suggestion is nonsense.

It's not nonsense. On the contrary, it is reasonable and sensible.

Willow
"By enabling people to read documents in Gaelic if that is their first language."

How does that address the language right? It doesn't.

"It's not nonsense. On the contrary, it is reasonable and sensible."

It's nonsense.

Anyone know the ulster scots translation of 'money laundering'

It's an expensive and pointless waste of money if the demand existed in the first place then they could simply translate the documents on demand as Willowfield suggests. However that demand doesn't exist. The key is the comment from Oilbhéar Chromaill "So Willowfield's solution is to translate documents on demand - now there's a thought. You employ people to translate documents and they sit on their hands until someone asks them to translate something. That's outside the box thinking alright." If they would be sitting around on their arses because of lack of demand then why bother in the first place? Any event, that misses the point - totally unnecessary to have people employed full time on such a job anyway, you subcontract it out when necessary - of course you need the demand for English/Irish translation agencies in the first place for that.

Why stop at Irish? Why not waste millions of taxpayers money translating documents into Turkish, Russian etc all of which have far more native speakers using the language on a daily basis than Irish. Catalan has 10 million speakers spread across 3 EU countries, shouldn't it have its own team of translators too?

If they were really serious about promoting the language then they would spend that money promoting the language at grassroots level. This should not only include the grammatical teaching etc but the cultural element. You can piss about as much as you want forcing people to learn languages at school but if those students subsequently solely use another language outside the classroom then its a wasted exercise. Instilling pride into people about the language, it's historical roots and longetivity will always be a far better thing to do. Those people will then use the language, making it a living form with its own literature, cinema etc to be enjoyed (hence more reason for learning the language) and most crucially, people will pass the language on to their kids from birth.

One thing that the Irish government should seriously consider is the creation of a new town in the Gaeltacht areas providing homes and jobs for upwards of 100000 people. As things stand, young people will leave the Gaeltacht areas in search of more lucrative work in Dublin or London where they will inevitably fall into speaking English with their peers.

Valenciano
I don't have time to answer your full post. You make some good points, but you also make the mistake, in my opinion, of focussing on just translating documents. There's obviously much more too it that simply translating a few treaties here and there. Is it that people don't want to see that there's more to it? Or maybe focussing on the documents makes for an easy target ..?

Willowfield

..Why? I would imagine Father McKenzie was Irish. Or at least of Irish stock.."

You can imagine all you like but it's a Scottish name and a Gaelic speaking Father McKenzie is going to sound more Scottish than Irish to any interested, half-informed person.

"..Please desist from making judgements about people based, not on what they say, but on your own sectarian prejudices.."

I've based my judgement entirely on what you've said.

I don't have sectarian prejudices. If you're saying I have, quote the offending comments.

Out of interest do you also consider disgraceful the longstanding British government policy of spending money on transations of official literature into Welsh?

Translating Irish will not be expensive, it will probably work out as one of the least expensive services provided by the EU. Anybody whose argument rests on the premise that this will be expensive is talking through their hole. It will not even constitute a drop in the ocean, maybe like a quarter of a drop or something.
Opposing this maesure is pure bigotry, no crocodile tears for a relatively negligible amount of money can hide that.

Hi Maca,

“Why?? Irish is already in a better position that it would be if you just relied on the charter.
How would reducing its status help at all?”

From my post previous to the one from which you quote…

“On balance, the overly enthusiastic promotion of Irish by the political and cultural elite from the 1920s did more harm than good to the language's longterm prospects.Instead of winning over people to the concept that they could speak Irish, they attempted to follow a process of saying they must speak Irish. That created a backlash that made many people more determined than ever not to.”

And, remembering that from it’s inception Irish has been the first language of the RoI "officially"…

“at the foundation of the Irish State there were 250,000 fluent Irish speakers living in Irish-speaking or semi Irish-speaking areas, but the number now is between 20,000 and 30,000.”

Therefore, I’m arguing that official status may not necessarily be the “help” that the Irish language needs. I haven’t read one post from someone who has said “Fek, I must start learning Irish because of it’s new status in the EU.”
The challenge for Irish language enthusiasts is how to gain new speakers. I don’t think this method will work…

“On balance, the overly enthusiastic promotion of Irish by the political and cultural elite from the 1920s did more harm than good to the language's longterm prospects.Instead of winning over people to the concept that they could speak Irish, they attempted to follow a process of saying they must speak Irish. That created a backlash that made many people more determined than ever not to.”

That'a not right. There was never enthusiastic promotion of irish, just "official status" lip service. It took til the 1970's and a civil rights campaign for Raidió na Gaeltachta to be set up.

"The challenge for Irish language enthusiasts is how to gain new speakers. I don’t think this method will work…"

The challenge for irish language enthusiasts is to encourage irish speaking parents pass the language to their children. This isn't a method, but at least they can say "Look, your language is recognised - be proud of it."

First off I apologise if anyone read my comment to mean that the Irish language was crap. That wasn't the point I was making, but I believe the process of wasting money spending money translating documents almost nobody reads into a language almost nobody reads.

"It means those who study Irish in school and do well can apply for EU jobs as it is taken as an official language. One of the criticisms is that you can't get a well paid job, well now you can."

This was exactly one of my criticisms. The move was intended to create jobs for people with valueless skills - as well as make an unpopular government and an unpopular EU look good. If you want a well paid job, study something useful!

Does anyone really believe this is about the Irish government's desire to enable their 20,000 fluent Irish speakers to read EU legislation? Had this been the case they could have easily been translating it themselves for years! It's nothing more than an ego trip and is symptomatic of the waste and bureaucracy in the EU.

typo:

but I believe the process of wasting money spending money translating documents almost nobody reads into a language almost nobody reads is crap.

Maca

I speak English, French and a minority language, fluently.

The inclusion of Irish as a working language is political rather than practical. 800 million euro per annum is an awful lot of money for the EU to spend on translation.

A French-speaking President recently stated that there are only two essential languages in the world today: English and the language of IT. Not to know them was like being illiterate.

The EU should have one working language: English. It would save a fortune, and eliminate discrimination.

I've stated before on this subject that you should be careful what you wish for.

There is now no defence against giving Catalan, Chinese, Urdu etc full working-language status. On that basis 21 could soon become 60. And that is simply ridiculous when the name of the game is cooperation.

It has been accepted that for free trade the EU needs common regulation. Many believe it needs a common currency. I think that moves like this only serve to make the case for a common language rather easier too.

The outcome of Irish (and, more dubious still, Maltese) as a working language will be negative for speakers of all languages (including Irish and Maltese) except English.

IJP "and, more dubious still, Maltese". Actually Maltese has a far stronger claim than Irish Gaelic given that almost everyone in Malta speaks it on a daily basis.

I do however take your point. There should be some form of sanity clause, where a language must be the first lanuage of (for example) 10m European citizens before it gets official status.

IJP, 6countyprod, Beano, Willowfield

In the light of your opinions on this issue how do you feel about the longstanding UK policy of spending money translating official government literature into Welsh?

Hi Biffo,

"That'a not right"

The quote was from Wikipedia. Not my words, but an outside observer. Personally, I think their outside judgment is quite close to the truth.

For example, Irish as the first language, compulsory at school, needed for civil service jobs, etc. I'd say that could be described as "overly enthusiastic promotion".

CC
"I’m arguing that official status may not necessarily be the “help” that the Irish language needs"

Well on that I can agree. Personally, this issue is one of respect, demonstrating the the Irish language is just as important as any other EU language. It's no magic solution for Irish, no one is claiming it is.

6cp
"The inclusion of Irish as a working language is political rather than practical."

A bit of both i'd say. Again, for me, the issue is one of respect.

"800 million euro per annum is an awful lot of
money for the EU to spend on translation."

It certainly is. But Irish is only 3.5m of this 800m and a fraction of what other countries spend on translation (46m).
Personally I think there should be 1-3 working languages and each government pays their own translation costs after that. In this case Irish would still have equal status.

"The EU should have one working language: English."
I don't entirely disagree but you will have a shit load of pissed off Europeans on your hands if you propose that. ;)

IJP
"On that basis 21 could soon become 60. And that is simply ridiculous when the name of the game is cooperation."

yes, and it might force a rethink of the whole system which is what is needed. I'd be happy either wey because it would mean Irish being treated the same as every other language instead of the previously "lesser status"

CC
"Irish as the first language"
Symbolic, overly enthusiastic? No. Promtion? No.

"compulsory at school"
How is that overly enthusiastic?

"needed for civil service jobs"
Irish is NOT needed for civil service jobs. In fact I think you're about 30 years behind the times on this one ;)

Congal Clean posted: The move was intended to create jobs for people with valueless skills - as well as make an unpopular government and an unpopular EU look good. If you want a well paid job, study something useful!

For some one who claims he doesn't think Irish is 'crap', what does the above post tell you about your sincerity and your respect for diversity?

What it tells me is that you believe school is nothing nore than a factory for producing people with 'skills' not a place where people are educated about life and culture, the type of education that encourages people to take a more fuller role in life and not just a training which merely equips people to a much lesser and inferior extent to take part in the rat race.

For your information learning Irish, as well as being part of a wider life enhancing education, equips people with skills which are more than useful. Learning Irish helps rather than hinders people who want to learn other languages - this is not a claim but scientific fact according to a University of London study - and, on top of that, there is an increasing market for Irish language skills, not just in translation but also in journalism, writing for TV, writing Children's Books, multi media, internet and so on.

I believe the process of wasting money spending money translating documents almost nobody reads into a language almost nobody reads.

I'm all for less documents almost nobody reads. I think the EU should cut it's paperwork by 99.99% and then cut it the same again. That would cut down more on the 800m euro budget than would cutting Irish out of the picture.

Argung for a cut in EU paperwork doesn't mean the same - or shouldn't mean the same - as cutting out the number of languages in which the remaining essential paperwork is available in. The EU was supposed to be - at its inception - a coalition of equals working towards economic prosperity of all and so on - that' still an admirable goal. It was never meant to be about devaluing each country's culture for the sake of an all encompassing one union one culture policy.

There are lots of problems with the EU as it stands. I myself am not for the EU Constitution and have found myself to be against every single EU treaty since - and including - Maastricht. But the Irish language should not be the fall guy in all of this.

My own view is that people such as Congal and Willowfield are using the EU as a stick to beat Irish because it suits their sectarian agendas. The well being of the EU is the least of their concerns - they just want to give the Irish and those who speak it a kicking.

Hi Maca,

Also from Wikipedia...

"The independent Irish state from 1922 launched a major push to promote the Irish language, with some of its leaders hoping that the state would become predominantly Irish-speaking within a generation. In fact, many of these initiatives, notably compulsory Irish at school and the requirement that one must know