What about Ulster-Scotch?

Isn't that Bushmills????

What a scandalous waste of public money on gesture politics.

Disgraceful.

mmm, and Allister said : "what we have here is the outworking of a Gaelic ego-trip by those who thrive on a pretence of being deprived"

Nice one Brendan

A shameful waste of money that isn't going to create one extra speaker of the language. This is the EU's linguistic version of the "straight banana".

Henry, as you well know, that's neither 'working' nor 'official'... and it's not a 'language'.

Henry94: What about Ulster-Scotch?



No problem. Ulster-Scots speakers can get jobs translating EU documents into Irish. It's not as though anyone's actually going to read the stuff, is it?

Speaking of scandalous wastes of public money, that sums
up Northern ireland quite necely.

I'm split on the issue ... though I have zero problem with my tax money (or yours for that matter) paying for it.

It is both curious and instructive that at a time when Britain stands alone against the 24 other EU members on the substantial issue of the rebate, the unionist denizens of Slugger take such umbrage at a unanimous decision of the Council of Ministers.

Have you forgotten the sponges your fathers wore so proudly when a British Prime Minister expressed his frustration at the cost of keeping them.

Henry94: Have you forgotten the sponges your fathers wore so proudly


I don't know whether my dad wore a sponge. As a taxpaying employee of a profitable company he probably never felt Wilson's remark applied to him. Even the employees of an inflated civil service probably thought they did something useful most days.

But when the new EU policy draws 20 educated, enthusiastic Irish speakers from the Gaeltacht, what will they do that is any use to anyone? They will be on hand to translate occasional boring speeches from Irish, relieving their tedium most days by translating documents that hardly anyone wants to read, into Irish versions that no one will ever read.

If Tony Blair can hang on to the rebate, I expect he'll not mind the cost of a minor sop to small nations during some tricky negotiations...

The UK ratified the 1992 European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages in respect of Irish in NI. Ulster-Scots is considered a dialect and therefore not recognized as a minority language.

Bring back Yola!

what miserable soul could possibly have a problem with this initiative? I
rish is an extremely important part of the history and culture of everybody in the country. In real terms the cost is absolutely and completely negligible from an EU point-of-view.

A waste of public money, but in the grand EU scheme of things it's but a drop in the wine lake.

Henry94, any talk of sponges only serves to draw attention for the point being debated here. As it happens Northern Ireland gets funding from central government (in the same way that poorer regions of any country do), but when it comes to sponging off the EU, then no one (with the possible exception of the Spanish) can hold a candle to the Republic of Ireland. For the last decade it has the highest level of economic growth, for the last three years, its per capita GDP is higher than any other EU country and it is still a net beneficiary of the EU. Thankfully that position will change in the new budget arrangements.

The whole issue of the UK rebarte is worthy of a separate thread, and again only serves to distract from the issue being discussed here.

I notice that not one poster disagrees with my point, that the expensive token gesture is going to lead to one additional speaker of the language. When the language is in danger of becoming completly obsolete, this is a scandalous waste of money that could be used to help the language.

What a patthetic bunch of monolinguist bigots you all are. If the EU isn't about cultural diversity, what is it about?

And of course Mr Allister, a miserable little man of narrow vision, got it all wrong with regards to giving the credit to Sinn Féin. It's nothing to do with SF - though they did support the campaign - this was a campaign by Irish language activists which got thousands of people out on the streets of Dublin and all party support.

Now the agenda is to make the authorities in NI move to enact an Irish Language Act - a draft of which has been prepared by the umbrella Irish language organisation POBAL - available here hyperlink - in the North.

That'll soften your anti Irish language cough, Pete B.

OC

Surely there are better ways of promoting the language than translating unreadable documents that nobody will read.

The demand that all documents must be translated smacks more of a French style insecurity than a serious attempt to further the tongue

OC : "If the EU isn't about cultural diversity, what is it about?". Can I suggest you do a bit of surfing. The answer to your question can be found very easily.

DCB "A waste of public money, but in the grand EU scheme of things it's but a drop in the wine lake." True, but it is enough to push this waiverer on the EU constitution into the "no" camp. It is this kind or arrogant self serving waste of money that does more damage to the EU than anything else I can think of.

This is some of the best news that Irish speakers have got in a long, long time!

It's excellent and worth every red cent.

Creating new speakers? I have no doubt that it might do just that, but more importantly, will it contribute to stopping people from turning away from the language, I think it will.

Excellent.

What a load of pants. It'll keep a few Irish speakers in cushy jobs and make the government look like the saviours of Irish pride in Europe.

Pandering in the extreme, especially when even Irish language schools in the Republic can't maintain their interest in the language!

If the £3.5m made any kind of contribution to encouraging the wider use of, or appreciation of, the Irish language, a case could at least be made for it; however it will not - when will people realise that this kind of dirigiste approach does not work with languages, it hasn't worked in Ireland and it won't work in the EU.

And at a time when there is a crisis of confidence and connection with the European institutions, this is exactly the kind of exercise in mutual back-scratching between unaccountable mandarins that has alienated so many EU citizens..

I have received 7 press releases from TDs, MLA's and Senators welcoming this decision. Not one of them contains any gaelige - sez it all really!

Nonsense Beano, a chara, pure nonsense.

It was only last year that the last county not to have a Gaelscoil opened one up. The language is going from strength to strength.

There certainly does exist a problem in the traditional Gaeltacht areas, however, people are receiving more qualifications in those areas and moving out of them too.

Moves like this will challenge the idea that many people in the Gaeltacht have had (including my parents and grandparents) that Irish will hold them back and keep them out of jobs or make them seem backward.

Moves like this will raise peoples self-confidence and self-respect as Irish speakers in the areas that suffer so badly from lacking in those departments.

The reason that Irish is now accepted in the EU as official is not tokenism. I am a native speaker of Irish and a resident of the EU. This new move shows that my native language has as much worth as any other in the EU whereas up until now I had been a speaker of a 'non-language' something second class only to be spoken of fondly by poets and fiddlers.

I speak Irish at home, at work and with my friends and no, I don't live out on some wee island somewhere.

Oh, and by the way, there are many more jobs for Irish speakers other than translating and interpreting. Anyone who is clued in will no that there is an Irish language sector of business which is growing too.

Go maire an Ghaeilge an fuath atá libh uirthi!

Oul Dub,

Presumably the press releases were for English speaking publications? If I was writing an article/press release for the Irish Times about the German Language, would I write it in English or German.

Bíodh ciall agat - Wise up!

No doubt the Minister for the Gealtacht already has in mind who is going to get these useless jobs in Brussels.

Beano, you make an excellent point. I was going to put this on the recent thread on Irish and the exams, but seeing as this thread is more current I'll post it here.

One of my best friends is currently working as a scrutineer in the Leaving Cert in a well know boy's college on Dublin's Northside. He loves the gig, but the one thing that he doesn't like is that on almost every subject, the vast majority of the students are working on their papers until the very last moment, meaning that he has to be quite foreceful in collecting the papers etc.

I say "almost every subject" because there is one exception ; Irish/Gaelic. He said that every student has to sit in the examination hall for at least a half an hour for their paper to be graded. However between a quarter and one third of the boys left the exam hall once this period had passed. By the hour mark half the students were gone, and there were less than five left at the end of the 2.5 hours.

He said it was obvious talking to people aftrwards, that for the vast majority of students today, Irish is one of those things you have to do, which you don't want to, and once you leave the exam hall, you will never use again. What a hopeless waste of good teaching time.

I think it's easy to be negative when you see nonsense like yesterday's decision. It is typical of the kind of token gesture (like compulsory Irish in schools) that actually does the language more harm than good.

If people were interested in the genuine good of the language, here are are things I think would be far more effective.

1; End compulsory Irish after Junior Cert level, but reward those those that do other subjects in the Leaving Cert through Irish with a 10% points bonus. That way Irish just isn't seen as existing in a bubble and those that don't want to supply the language, don't have to.

2; All Gaelic football and hurling matches carried on radio and television to have commentary in Irish only.

3; Provide special funding to film and television makers and musicians who work in the language and then promote their work overseas.

4; Move the Dept. of the Gaeltacht to the Gaeltacht!

5; Make an ability to speak the language (even at a very low level) an essential part of a new earned citizenship process.

Quality cynicism 'Friendly Fire' - well done.

So you don't expect the jobs to be advertised and interviewed for? The fact that there is a high level of expertise and skill needed for the job should inform you that you can't just hand these jobs to someone who is fluent in a language or are you a monoglot who doesn't understand the difficulies and intricacies of translation and/or interpreting?

By the way, it's spelt 'G A E L T A C H T' although what you've written is a flattering play on words for the beautifully scenic areas. Well done. Maybe you have the skills and should apply.

The issue a lot of people have is that Irish is perceived to be used both as a political and cultural tool. There's a difference.

In NI it is often endorsed for political reasons by republicans to reinforce community and, at the same time, reinforce distinction and division. It's draped in thoroughly revised historical claptrap and its poster people are hardly models of progression. The average Celtic-shirted Spide can speak but three words - Tiocfaidh Ar La. Or, on an exceptional day, you might even get an Oglaigh na Eireann.

In the more reasoned Republic it's more often used in a purely cultural way, with less aggression and with more impressive linguistic passion.

Opposition to it seems to be based largely on the experience of the former, and that's understandable. When there's official endorsement of flying the Union Flag, republicans see this as a political statement and they oppose it on those grounds. When street signs go up in Irish on gable ends decorated with the colours of Provo ejaculate, they think anyone who raises an eyebrow is a bigot.

There are a great many Irish speakers who put a great deal of love into raising the profile of the lingo, and fair play. This is a great result for them. But they'd be wise to realise it's a hot potato, and opposition is a symptom of the NI context. I'm sure they do, but way down South I'm sure they don't much care. Why would they?

I can't get too moved by the progression or otherwise of the language. Many of us of all shades of opinion will have distant relatives who spoke it to some extent or other. Unionists would spend their time better by seizing it - like English, it's part of the heritage of this land - rather than allowing themselves to fight a bad-tempered, public, losing battle in opposing it. And as for Ulster Scots, give us a break.

And one other point: Scotch is whiskey (whisky). Scots is a thing of Scotland.

Baluba,

Your presumption is totally wrong!

The releases were sent to preset mailing lists that include all sorts of media outlets from print to radio to tv.
The point of the post was that these guys are no more interested in the issue than the man on the moon, but a mention in an article or a broadcast piece might keep them in well with the gaelgoiri in their constituencies.

What did any politician ever do for your gaelscoil only show up at the official opening to get his mug in the paper?

Bíodh ciall agat fhein - Wise up yourself!

Soapy, I agree with much of what you said there and it is sad that the language is perceived to be hi-jacked by Republicans only using it for political gain.

However, the nature of language is that it is something spoken generally by people. By spides, hippies, priests, lawyers, milkmen, republicans and believe it or not, some Unionists etc etc

Presuming that someone wearing a tracksuit only speaks a language because they are seeking to use it aggressively is more than a bit cynical.

Republicans have every right to protect the language and many do speak it. Should they abandon it in case they offend someone? I found it funny when told once that it was OK for Shinners from 'the South' to speak Irish, but ones in the North are only doing it to get up Unionist noses. Simply not true. It seems that anything republicans support is repugnant to others anyway.

Of course Irish Republicans are going to identify strongly with the Irish language, but that should not mean that the anti-Midas touch should happen to the language for others. 'THEY speak it, so it must be evil!'

This is what really gets up many Irish speakers noses, especially in the North, that people assume they speak the language for political reasons. I speak it because it was the first language I ever spoke. Am I a republican? Yes. Am I a Republican because I speak Irish? No. Am I an Irish speaker because I am a Republican? No.

Fair enough Baluba. But I'm only saying that it is used politically by republicans who can barely speak a word of it. That's a fair point.

And I'm not saying anyone should abandon it at all. Far from it. We'd all be better off, ideally, if we could all speak it. It wouldn't be a divisive issue then, and genuine proponents of the language would be chuffed to bits (although I realise that's a far flung idea). I'm just saying that opposition is understandable when it's directly associated with militaristic republicanism - rightly or wrongly.

As I say, I'm not taking much of a stand on this. All languages are, in themselves, good. The more languages of whatever kind are learned by more people, the better.

Hilarious stuff,

Unionists, the most lazy, misbegotten, self-aggrandizing group of misfits in Europe, who have inveigled their way into the UK, but who do nothing but sap money and energies from the Irish and British governments, are complaining about Irish.

At least the people who speak Irish have a dynamic economy and contribute a great deal more than this shower of lethargic incompetents who somehow imagine their "Northern [in]Efficiency" is something to boast about.

Ní thuiginn an bó ach an bata! You should all have to fend for yourselves and stop pulling and the British taxpayers' apron strings. And by the way, they don't even want you and who indeed does.

Oul Dub,

My local politician did an awful amount of work for us actually and still does.

The fact that press releases were in English still doesn't prove anything at all. So what if the ministers involved didn't use Irish to praise the move. Maybe they don't speak the language. Maybe the target audience was English-speaking.

Everytime you speak about Irish or on Irish issues it doesn't have to be in Irish.

Again, if I was discussing the French rules in media of not using bastardised English words, would I be obliged to discuss it in French?

Just because the discussion about Irish wasn't in Irish doesn't prove anything. Face it, you are just being cynical.

Should I start writing my postings here in Irish? No, because the forum is English-speaking, but we can perfectly well discuss the issue.

I come from the unionist tradition in Ireland, and I have to say that what OC says is unfortunately true. A bit of an embarrassment, really, and very defensive. All power to local, regional and national traditions, including the Ulster-Scots dialect, that I miss and treasure very much.
A necessary condition for reconciliation on this island is respect. The writers on this topic should show a little more, and recognise what a beautiful and unique creation the Irish language (any language)is, and a gift to us all. I would love the North to become bilingual.
It is infuriating that in this age of excessive consumption, promoted by limitless and tasteless marketing,that people are complaining about preserving and promoting an existing language.

I come from the unionist tradition in Ireland, and I have to say that what OC says is unfortunately true. A bit of an embarrassment, really, and very defensive. All power to local, regional and national traditions, including the Ulster-Scots dialect, that I miss and treasure very much.
A necessary condition for reconciliation on this island is respect. The writers on this topic should show a little more, and recognise what a beautiful and unique creation the Irish language (any language)is, and a gift to us all. I would love the North to become bilingual.
It is infuriating that in this age of excessive consumption, promoted by limitless and tasteless marketing,that people are complaining about preserving and promoting an existing language.

Refreshing stuff Michail.

I think in the long term Ulster-Scots will be of benefit-think of peoples ciriculum vita-s,every Northerner is instantly bi-lingual,What Northerner cannot put on a broad Balamena-hi accent and the Yanks would never realise that its all a big spoof if we went over there for work.

oul dub
"I have received 7 press releases ... Not one of them contains any gaelige"

I received 1 press release ... in Irish as well as English.

Keith
"the expensive token gesture is going to lead to one additional speaker of the language."

How do you know it won't? What are you basing this on?
Such gestures, showing respect to our language and putting in on a equal footing with other European languages, might well have a knock on effect in this country. If we see that others appear to value our language perhaps we might value it a bit more and take more interest in it.

"Irish is one of those things you have to do, which you don't want to, and once you leave the exam hall, you will never use again."

The same applies to an awful lot of subjects!
As far as the exams go, as you well know, the entire focus of the exams is points, getting points in the subjects that will get you the course you want. Indeed students would drop a whole lot more than just Irish if they could.

Interesting suggestions by the way. I'm surprised they came from you :)

From the Ulster-Scots Agency site:

The European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages entered into force for the United Kingdom on 1st July 2001. For the purposes of Part II of the Charter, the UK Government recognised that Ulster-Scots met the definition of a regional or a minority language, and is therefore committed to applying the objectives and principles of Article 7 of the Charter to the Ulster-Scots language. Article 7 provides: -

1. In respect of the Ulster-Scots language, within the territory in which the language is used and according to the situation of the language, State Parties shall base their policies, legislation and practice on the following objectives and principles: -

- The recognition of the Ulster-Scots language as an expression of cultural wealth;

- The respect for the geographical area of the Ulster-Scots language in order to ensure that existing or new administrative divisions do not constitue an obstacle to the promotion of the Ulster-Scots language.

- The need for resolute action to promote the Ulster-Scots language in order to safeguard it:

- The facilitation and/or encouragement of the use of the Ulster-Scots language, in speech and writing, in public and private life;

- The maintenance and development of links, in the fields covered by the Charter, between groups using the Ulster-Scots language and other groups in the State employing a language used in identical or similar form, as well as the establishment of cultural relations with other groups in the State using different languages;

- The provision of appropriate forms and means for the teaching and study of the Ulster-Scots language at all appropriate stages;

- The provision of facilites enabling non-speakers of the Ulster-Scots language living in the area where it is used to learn if they so desire;

- The promotion of study and research on the Ulster-Scots language at universities or equivalent institutions;

- The promotion of appropriate types of transnational exchanges, in the fields covered by the Charter, for the Ulster-Scots language if used in identical or similar form in two or more States.

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/europeancharter.asp

More power to the Ullans enthusiasts/speakers etc. This has nothing to do with Irish though. Two different 'spakes' and two different sets of circumstances'.

I don't think anyone even in the Tha Boord o' Ulstèr-Scotch is suggesting the same moves regarding EU recognition etc.

Incidentally, I called them once to get a guest speaker for a 'Cumann Gaelach' meeting in Queens once and was told that 'the fella who speaks it is away on holiday'.

Even Lord Laird and the bould Nelson Mc Causland don't speak it by theri own admission.

However, anyone with any linguistic experience/expertise will know that it is much more than just a Ballymena accent (Martin).

Respect for it doesn't hurt you.

Fraggle

Speaking of scandalous wastes of public money, that sums up Northern ireland quite necely.

Please explain why you think money spent on education, health, roads, transport, etc., in Northern Ireland is a “scandalous waste”.

Henry94

It is both curious and instructive that at a time when Britain stands alone against the 24 other EU members on the substantial issue of the rebate, the unionist denizens of Slugger take such umbrage at a unanimous decision of the Council of Ministers.

The fact that the decision was unanimous does not alter the fact that it will result in a scandalous waste of money.

Bootman

what miserable soul could possibly have a problem with this initiative? Irish is an extremely important part of the history and culture of everybody in the country. In real terms the cost is absolutely and completely negligible from an EU point-of-view.

In real terms the money would be better spent on any number of projects or causes. It could be used to provide clean drinking water in Africa. It is scandalous that Europe is so decadent as to be throwing away its excess wealth on gesture politics. There is no demand for translations of EU documents into Gaelic. And even if there were, there is no reason why documents couldn’t be translated on demand at a tiny proportion of the cost of this decision.

Olibhear Chromaill

What a patthetic bunch of monolinguist bigots you all are.

What a pathetic multilingual bigot you are.

Baluba

This is some of the best news that Irish speakers have got in a long, long time!

Why?

It's excellent and worth every red cent.

Why?

Creating new speakers? I have no doubt that it might do just that

How?

, but more importantly, will it contribute to stopping people from turning away from the language, I think it will.

How?

Baluba,

Im sure there is a lot more involved than just a Ballymena accent to speak it fluent,But for a begginner the old nordi accent is a great head start--and would be much easier to pick up than trying to acquire a working knowledge of Welsh.

BALUBA,

whowesh thee gooween aum proogreeshin neiceeli wud dar uoulstar Skats aumint tai

Baluba
"Respect for it doesn't hurt you."

Well said. There is a serious lack of respect when it comes to U-S.
Of course, as with Irish, the problem is partly politicisation of the 'langualect'.
But this is a whole other discussion...

Willowfield,

Please read my postings where I spelt it out. That will answer all your hows, whys and where fores.

Summary being: Language rights are human rights; people with see increased worth in the language (speakers and non-speakers) and it gives the language a larger platform. I already know two Portuguese, four German, one Dutch, one Russian and ne second generation Chinese who speak Irish. Larger platform - increased interest.

It's not rocket science if you take your blinkers off.

Maca, of course I cannot having some piece of obscure European legislation on fishing guidlines translated from Maltese to Irish or having some obscure edict translated from Irish to Latvian is going to generate more Irish speakers, just can it a well educated hunch. The people who will benefit from this are the civil servants who already have to have Irish before they can join the civil service. It's a self propograting gravy train of the worst kind. The only thing is does is to most sceptics of the most pro-Euopean people like myself.

As for "The same applies to an awful lot of subjects", I totally agree, but you are not forced to study other subjects. Only English and Maths are also compulsory and those are both needed throughout your life.

As for my proposals, I think that these are practical steps that actually might help. Tokenism clearly doesn't as we've seen in the past.

Baluba

Please read my postings where I spelt it out. That will answer all your hows, whys and where fores.

None of your postings spell it out.

Language rights are human rights

What "language rights"? What human rights?

people with see increased worth in the language (speakers and non-speakers) and it gives the language a larger platform.

What people will see "increased worth"? How do translations of Council of Ministers meetings give the language a larger platform? No-one will know nor care about such translations.

Now, why is it worth every red cent? On what do you base your calculation?

How will it create new speakers? And how will it contribute to stopping people from turning away from the language?

You seem to be looking from the wrong end of the telescope.

Keith
"of course I cannot ... generate more Irish speakers"

You're missing the point, on purpose I suspect. It's about respect, in my opinion, and treating it as an equal European language. It doesn't even get such respect here on Slugger.

"I totally agree, but you are not forced to study other subjects"

Yes you are. All subjects are compulsory until Intercert, then after that you have *some* degree of choice. Very limited choice. You are also limited in that if you want to go to college you must take most of these subjects at higher level as the focus is on getting points. This is the reason many drop to lower level Irish for the LC, so they can focus on getting the points they need. The whole system is crap, IMO.

"I think that these are practical steps that actually might help"

So do I (with some reservations) i'm just surprised they came from you as I would even say 1 or 2 of them are quite "extreme" :)

Willowfield,
You can always be counted on for abuse rather than argument in that petty little sectarian world of yours.

When the decision is already made there seems no point in debating it again. This reminds me of the common film scene where someone is left shaking their fist at a train leaving the station while the hero waves back at them.

In this case of course it's a gravy train.

Olibher Chromaill

You can always be counted on for abuse rather than argument in that petty little sectarian world of yours.

1. I can't always be counted on for abuse. Indeed, I rarely engage in it.

2. The "abuse" you refer to was, in fact, a direct and deliberate imitation of your own "abuse", the point of which was to draw attention to it. By identifying it as abuse, therefore, you merely identify your own abuse.

3. The above comment in itself is abusive.

4. I don't have a petty little sectarian world. Perhaps those who are so quick with the kneejerk accusations of "sectarianism" are the ones living in the sectarian world? Take some time out and think about it.

Very good, Henry.

Fair enough Willowfield, I'll spoon-feed you.

Human Rights are standards that are due to human beings despite opinion, prejudice or evaluation. There are different 'generations' of human rights. 'Language Rights' are defined in the second generation. These 'rights' afford protection and promotion for that language, basically meaning that a person deserves to be dealt with in their indigenous language OR their language of choice. This move in the EU fits the bill.

Again, the increased worth will be seen by speakers and non-speakers alike who have some connection to the language or others who express interest. The fact that it is in the press all over the EU today shows that it has a raised platform. People are reading about it.

People who read Irish more comfortably than English (of which there are many although many on this thread will laugh and reuse to believe it) and those who PREFER to read in Irish will be glad to have this info available to them.

It is worth every red cent because it recognises the aforementioned language rights for Irish speakers. Economically, I would not be so arrogant as to compose some nonsense calculations that some have already done on this thread. Yes, it will have to be paid for. So do all the sandwiches that are provided for our rotund EU ministers. So what.

It will create new speakers because it will be seen as a language of worth by some of those who would be encouraged to think otherwise. It will raise interest in Europe. You may not know this, but Irish is available as a subject in Berlin and Hamburg Uni, in Paris, in Oslo, in Jerusalem and many other places already. It will help to arrest the turning away from the language by those (as I already said) already have the language or are learning it and see it as a road to nowheresville. I kept it on and have a great career using it.

Pádraig Ó Céidigh uses it in his business and he is a mildly successful man too (in fiscal/business/capitalistic success terms). He is not alone.

How on Earth could a move like this do anything other than good for the language? The only people who will be discouraged from the language by this move, I would suggest, are thse who already hold it in some contempt.

Anything else?

All joking aside,I think Ulster Scots should be encouraged in that--it is imprtant to protect our parocial and regional identities ,with Irish unity pending our local ways and dialect/slang should be kept alive.

Every time there's a topic on the Irish language Willowfield can be counted on to come in with illinformed rantings about 'irish being a dead language' etc. This is the type of kneejerk sectarianism that informs him - he couldn't be arsed going out and looking for the evidence to back up his cause - or disprove it. I was making a general comment about the usual negative sentiments being expressed by Willowfield and others about the Irish language, all as poorly informed as one another, rather than directing abuse at him in my original comment.

If he keeps on repeating the old mantras ad nauseam, he shouldn't expect us to believe him eventually. I and many others like me live in a bilingual (at least) world. He lives in a monolingual sectarian sub province where ignorance is celebrated.

This applies to all those who constantly rehearse the tired old arguments about Irish language - they have never got it. Irish is growing as a language - not declining - but then again these are people for whom the glass is always nearly empty. They deserve no better.

Baluba

Human Rights are standards that are due to human beings despite opinion, prejudice or evaluation.

I know what human rights are. I asked you what human rights you were referring to.

There are different 'generations' of human rights. 'Language Rights' are defined in the second generation. These 'rights' afford protection and promotion for that language, basically meaning that a person deserves to be dealt with in their indigenous language OR their language of choice.

Please quote which human rights you are referring to, and the source. Try to be specific.

Again, the increased worth will be seen by speakers and non-speakers alike who have some connection to the language or others who express interest. The fact that it is in the press all over the EU today shows that it has a raised platform. People are reading about it.

So you think it is worth millions of euro annually to get a story in a newspaper? Not very convincing. That would seem to cement the argument that it is mere gesture politics: the worth is not inherent to the provision of translation services, but merely in the gesture.

People who read Irish more comfortably than English (of which there are many although many on this thread will laugh and reuse to believe it) and those who PREFER to read in Irish will be glad to have this info available to them.

Will they? How many people want to have EU documents available to them in any language, never mind Gaelic? Very few. How many Gaelic-readers will wish to read EU documents in Gaelic? Twenty? Ten? Any? There will be next to no demand. Be honest with yourself.

Provision for such demand, should it exist, however, can be made without wasting millions of euro on a gesture: simply translate the documents on demand.

It is worth every red cent because it recognises the aforementioned language rights for Irish speakers.

Which specific language rights do you refer to, and how does it recognise them?

Economically, I would not be so arrogant as to compose some nonsense calculations that some have already done on this thread. Yes, it will have to be paid for. So do all the sandwiches that are provided for our rotund EU ministers. So what.

So what? There is a duty and an obligation on public institutions to spend money wisely, and not to waste money. Providing sandwiches is not a waste: ministers have to eat. Spending money on translations for which there is no need and no demand, and which no-one will ever read, is a waste.

It will create new speakers because it will be seen as a language of worth by some of those who would be encouraged to think otherwise.

Do you really believe what you write? You really think that people will choose to learn Gaelic because EU documents are translated into it? Sorry, but that seems far-fetched. Is your claim based on any research or evidence?

You’re looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

It will raise interest in Europe.

How?

You may not know this, but Irish is available as a subject in Berlin and Hamburg Uni, in Paris, in Oslo, in Jerusalem and many other places already. It will help to arrest the turning away from the language by those (as I already said) already have the language or are learning it and see it as a road to nowheresville. I kept it on and have a great career using it.

You mean by providing jobs for Gaelic translators?

How on Earth could a move like this do anything other than good for the language?

It may do a micro-unit of good for the language, but that is not the point. I’m unaware of anyone claiming that it will do harm to the language, or that will not do a micro-unit of good. The point is that it is a scandalous waste of money, i.e. it is not worth spending millions of euro in order to realise a micro-unit of good. It’s complete nonsense: gesture politics at its worst.

The same rights can be achieved by spending a tiny proportion of the proposed millions.

The only people who will be discouraged from the language by this move, I would suggest, are thse who already hold it in some contempt.

No-one’s claiming anyone will be discouraged from the language. Stop avoiding the issue and stop misrepresenting those who question the decision.

Oilbhéar Chromaill. I was born in Willowfield Gardens and I'm still waiting for willowfield to say something I can agree with, just for old time's sake. But the wagons are circled and the injuns are learning Irish!

Just one more thing about so-called gesture politics. A more positive term to use would be symbolic politics. Symbols are important and ancient aspects of all human societies. The positive symbolism involved in this decision is not microscopic, which is why,I suspect Willowfield is getting so animated.

Baluba posts: People who read Irish more comfortably than English (of which there are many although many on this thread will laugh and reuse to believe it) and those who PREFER to read in Irish will be glad to have this info available to them.

Willowfield responds: Will they? How many people want to have EU documents available to them in any language, never mind Gaelic? Very few. How many Gaelic-readers will wish to read EU documents in Gaelic? Twenty? Ten? Any? There will be next to no demand. Be honest with yourself.

Provision for such demand, should it exist, however, can be made without wasting millions of euro on a gesture: simply translate the documents on demand.

So Willowfield's solution is to translate documents on demand - now there's a thought. You employ people to translate documents and they sit on their hands until someone asks them to translate something. That's outside the box thinking alright.

The fact is that only relevant documents are going to be translated - ie documents to do with Ireland and important documents - such as the Constittuion etc.

The EU, like thousands of administrations and governments all over the world, produces mountains of documents no one reads in any language. That's not an argument against making Irish an official language but is an argument for making the EU more relevant.

The Irish language shouldn't be disadvantaged - which it was in comparison to other national languages of other member states - because of difficulties in getting the EU message across. Methinks that Willowfield thinks his Christmas and his birthday have come together with the confluence of the stories about the EU and the Irish language.

What Willowfield has to get his head around and fast that this decision is going to add momentum to a campaign for an Irish Language Act in the north. The consultation is already underway on this legislation and the result will be WHEN (rather than if) it happens is that Northern Ireland will become an official bilingual sub province.

Olibhear Cromwaill

Every time there's a topic on the Irish language Willowfield can be counted on to come in with illinformed rantings about 'irish being a dead language' etc.

I would respectfully ask that you desist from lying. I have never once claimed that Gaelic is a “dead language”, never mind done son on every topic about the language. In seeking to condemn others, you merely expose yourself as “ill-informed”. If you are incapable of joining in the discussion without engaging in personal abuse, please do not participate.

This is the type of kneejerk sectarianism that informs him

I have not engaged in any “kneejerk sectarianism”: if I had, you would be able to point to it and demonstrate how it was either “kneejerk” or “sectarian”. You can’t, because your own accusations are themselves examples of the “kneejerk sectarianism” about which you complain.

- he couldn't be arsed going out and looking for the evidence to back up his cause - or disprove it.

I was making a general comment about the usual negative sentiments being expressed by Willowfield and others about the Irish language, all as poorly informed as one another, rather than directing abuse at him in my original comment.

You made an abusive comment about those who queried the efficacy of the decision, based not on what anyone said, but on a “kneejerk sectarian” assumption about such people’s motives. I replied in kind – deliberately to expose the abusive and “kneejerk sectarian” nature of the comment.

If he keeps on repeating the old mantras ad nauseam, he shouldn't expect us to believe him eventually.

I don’t repeat old mantras ad nauseum. Logically, then, it would not be possible for me to keep on doing so.

I and many others like me live in a bilingual (at least) world. He lives in a monolingual sectarian sub province where ignorance is celebrated.

Again, your sectarian abuse is noted. My original tactic was to respond in kind to this abuse in an attempt to highlight it to you. This didn’t work. I now resort, again, to respectfully requesting that you desist from engaging in sectarian abuse.

Deal with what people actually say, not with what your sectarian prejudices lead you to believe they say.

It's not often I would imagine myself coming along with the opinions of someone named Oilbhéar Chromaill, a chara, but good points.

Fair play to you too Michail.

I think I've said all I want to on this thread and am generally not inclined to stand banging my head against a wall anyway.

I'll just go back to my wee Irish-speaking world and await some riveting EU reports in my native language. Ye never know, I may even be inclined to read them now.....

Go ndéana A mhaith daoibh.

Oops I should have written the "Spending money on Gaelicis a scandalous waste of money" line rather than the "Irish language is dead" one.

It's all the same Willowfield. Irish is the first national language of Ireland and is now, finally, recognised by the EU as an official working language. You can't stand anything Irish getting such recognition anywhere. That's the real reason you object and that's why you merit 'sectarian' when I'm describing you.

Bilingual is coming to a sub province near you - no it's already here.

I don't take back one word of what I said in the above post about you. Your rehearsal of the anti Irish mantra in the face of mounting evidence which shows that Irish is a living and growing language here in the sub province and throughout Ireland convinces me that you're just an irreformable cretin.

OC,

As regards the language act in the North, it'll be interesting to see what comes out of the Pobal meeting this afternoon in the Cultúrlann in Belfast. Do you know about it? Robert Dunbar and Wilson McLeod as guest speakers.

Willowfield: when you ask which language rights I have to wonder what exactly you want from me. Do you want me to saw nos 3 - 6 or something. Rights as such are abstract. Language Rights refer to protection of indigenous languages from discrimination, what more do you need? Some kind of book and page reference? The phrase is in the public domain and easily found in any general Human Rights discursive. If it's a list of references you want, OF COURSE, I can't be arsed going and getting them.

So Willowfield's solution is to translate documents on demand

Yes. Perfectly sensible: meets the demands of Gaelic-speakers without wasting millions employing a squad of “Father McKenzie” translators translating documents that no-one will read.

You employ people to translate documents and they sit on their hands until someone asks them to translate something.

Why would you do that?

The fact is that only relevant documents are going to be translated - ie documents to do with Ireland and important documents - such as the Constittuion etc.

So why are 20-30 translators to be employed?

Methinks that Willowfield thinks his Christmas and his birthday have come together with the confluence of the stories about the EU and the Irish language.

Your sectarian prejudices are exposed again. Please desist.

willowfield,

could you be a bit more specific which of the Gaelic languages you are referring to, Irish or Scottish?

Everybody else is talking about Irish, but you are not making it clear which one you are referring to.

Sorry willow,

I came to this thread quite late and don't have time to go back over everything.

I saw "Gaelic" and "Father McKenzie" and assumed you were talking about Scottish Gaelic. I realise my mistake

I can also see that, due to your political prejudices, you have a problem using the word Irish to describe the language.

Olibhear Cromwell

Oops I should have written the "Spending money on Gaelicis a scandalous waste of money" line rather than the "Irish language is dead" one.

Again, I would beg of you: please stop lying and misrepresenting. At no time have I ever made such a statement. If you are unable to engage honestly with people, then please don’t bother participating in the discussions.

It's all the same Willowfield. Irish is the first national language of Ireland and is now, finally, recognised by the EU as an official working language. You can't stand anything Irish getting such recognition anywhere. That's the real reason you object and that's why you merit 'sectarian' when I'm describing you.

PLEASE KEEP YOUR SECTARIAN PREJUDICES TO YOURSELF and stop attributing your prejudices to others.

I don't take back one word of what I said in the above post about you.

In that case, goodbye. There is little point in debating with a closed sectarian mind, who chooses personal abuse and sectarian prejudice over reasoned discussion.

Your rehearsal of the anti Irish mantra

Zzzzzzzzzz

Baluba

Willowfield: when you ask which language rights I have to wonder what exactly you want from me. Do you want me to saw nos 3 - 6 or something.

I want you to cite them. Are they, for example, in the European Convention on Human Rights? The UN Declaration?

Rights as such are abstract.

Rights can and do take legal form. Indeed, such form is necessary if rights are to be meaningful. Such form is also evidence that the right in question has some kind of currency and shared understanding.

Language Rights refer to protection of indigenous languages from discrimination, what more do you need?

I have already asked you to quote the source. Why are you being so evasive?

I take it from your failure to clarify your point about the newspaper articles as an admission that the real worth of the decision is merely as a gesture.

I also note your failure to respond to the very reasonable point that provision for any demand to read EU documents in Gaelic can be made without wasting millions of euro on a gesture, i.e. by translate the documents on demand. This would also maintain the rights which you refer to, yet are so reluctant to cite.

Biffo

I could you be a bit more specific which of the Gaelic languages you are referring to, Irish or Scottish? Everybody else is talking about Irish, but you are not making it clear which one you are referring to.

The title, the blog and the ensuing discussion should make it crystal clear to you.

Great news,
I now officially have one more official EU language and can apply for all those Brussels jobs I wasn't able to before.

Also, as Irish is the official language of the Irish state it is ridiculous it wasn't an official EU language.

As for wasting 3.5 million a year, peanuts I say. To put this in context, there will be 200 million spent on horse racing in Ireland in the next five years. 43% of the EU budget is spent on farmers.

Also on waste, Northern Ireland got three times as much EU money as the Republic and what did it do with it?

Nothing except feather a few North Antrim farmers' nests from what I can see.

Somebody should tell Gregory Campbell this as poor old Greg seems to think the Irish economic miracle is down to the begging bowl.

Willowfield,
your government voted for this as did mine and the other 23 EU countries so obviously your view that it is a waste is that of a tiny minority.

Who says democracy doesn't work? What you need to do now is start a lobby.

Step 1: Get a referendum to remove the Irish language's status as the official language of the Irish state.

Step 2: Get the majority to vote for the removal.

Sep 3: Get Irish government to petition for the language's removal as an EU language. Good luck.

Willowfield

"Biffo..

The title, the blog and the ensuing discussion should make it crystal clear to you."

Obviously you also have a problem with the English langage too, what part of "Sorry willow,
I came to this thread quite late and don't have time to go back over everything. I saw "Gaelic" and "Father McKenzie" and assumed you were talking about Scottish Gaelic. I realise my mistake" which part of that do you not understand?????!!!!!

I won't hold my breath for a reply!

Olibhear Cromwell

Oops I should have written the "Spending money on Gaelicis a scandalous waste of money" line rather than the "Irish language is dead" one.

Again, I would beg of you: please stop lying and misrepresenting. At no time have I ever made such a statement. If you are unable to engage honestly with people, then please don’t bother participating in the discussions.

at 12.49pm Wiillowfield wrote:
Bootman

what miserable soul could possibly have a problem with this initiative? Irish is an extremely important part of the history and culture of everybody in the country. In real terms the cost is absolutely and completely negligible from an EU point-of-view.

In real terms the money would be better spent on any number of projects or causes. It could be used to provide clean drinking water in Africa. It is scandalous that Europe is so decadent as to be throwing away its excess wealth on gesture politics. There is no demand for translations of EU documents into Gaelic. And even if there were, there is no reason why documents couldn’t be translated on demand at a tiny proportion of the cost of this decision.

How short your memory is Willowfield....
.

Anyway willow,

Whay have you got a problem with using the word "Irish"?

could anyone tell me roughly what year did Greencastle county Tyrone stop being a native Irish speaking district-I believe it was somewhere around early 1900's

Willowfield,

I thought I admitted to the laziness charge did I not? However, since you seem set to portray me as someone mouthing off with nothing to back up, you may refer to:

Article 14 in the European Declaration of Human Rights, and;

Article 2 in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Martin,

Ca'nt remember the exact date, but the last 'native speaker' to die in that area and be native to it was around the same time as the last in the Glens of Antrim and it was much later than that, in the 30s I believe. That is not certain however, I'm going on sketchy memory because De Valera visited each of them (including the last native speaker of Manx who died I think in the 40s/50s).

The cost is 3.5 Million Euro, since Ireland has applied for the same derogation as Malta as to which documents are translated.


This compares with 46 Million Euro for other official languages.


Perhaps we should tell the Germans, Swedes, etc. that it is a terrible waste of money translating documents into their languages? Most of them are fluent in English anyway.


Also, hand in hand with offical status goes the rights of MEPs to speak Irish in the Parliament without having to ask for permission in writing beforehand.


At least 4 of the Sixteen MEPs on the island of Irealand are fluent and frequent speakers of Irish. Séan Ó Neachtain (FF) has Irish as his first language. Jim Higgins (FG), Pronsias de Rossa (Labour) and Bairbre de Brún (SF) are fluent and frequent speakers - they can be heard on Radio na Gaeltachta anytime Europe is discussed. As can former and current politicians such as Alan Dukes, etc.


As far as I know, there is neither a radio nor television station, nor a newspaper in Ulster Scots. Irish has all of these.

aonghus [and anyone else who tried to point it out earlier]

Apologies for the mis-applied currency. I've edited the post accordingly.

Baluba,

thanks for that,so the Manx language is dead--which of the other languages was it most similar to-Irish,scots-gaelic,welsh or cornish

Manx was/is a Q or Goidelic Celtic language close to Irish and Scottish Gaelic.

Manx is still spoken and there are Manx schools, but the last person who was born and bred with it as their first language before any other is dead. The language is alive (if only barely).

aongus, the comparison with Ulster-Scots is spurious. No one is campaigning to have Ulster Scots made an official EU language. As it happens both Welsh and Scots Gaelic which both have more native speakers than Irish Gaelic aren't either. As we're at it the comparison to Swedish and German are also nonsense given the number of speakers of those languages (and I can tell you they don't all speak English!).

You mention a cost of €3.5m, is that a once off or a recurring charge?

Gerorge "Also, as Irish is the official language of the Irish state it is ridiculous it wasn't an official EU language.". Might I remind you that Luxembourg (a founder member of the EEC/EC/EU) does not have Luxembourgish as an official language despite the fact that it has more native speakers than Irish Gaelic.

Willowfield seems to be getting a bit of a hammering on this thread. With this in mind I found the following on Wikipedia…

The first sentence is very important...

"On balance, the overly enthusiastic promotion of Irish by the political and cultural elite from the 1920s did more harm than good to the language's longterm prospects. Instead of winning over people to the concept that they could speak Irish, they attempted to follow a process of saying they must speak Irish. That created a backlash that made many people more determined than ever not to. The language went into long-term decline, with Gaeltacht areas (exclusively Irish speaking areas) shrinking as the results of each national census returns were analysed. Today, most people, even in what are officially Gaeltacht areas, no longer speak the language. In a last ditch effort to stop the complete collapse of Irish-speaking in Connemara in Galway, new planning controls have been introduced to ensure that only Irish speakers will be given permission to build homes in Irish speaking areas. But even this may be too little, too late, as many of those areas have a majority of English-speakers, with most Irish speakers being bilingual, using English as their everyday language except among themselves. Compulsory Irish in schools remains a political shibboleth, with most politicians reluctant to raise the subject for fear of appearing unpatriotic.

In spite of all the efforts since Ireland achieved independence (some critics claim because of those efforts) the Irish language is in rapid and perhaps terminal decline in the Republic of Ireland. According to data compiled by the Irish Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, only one quarter of households in Gaeltacht areas possess a fluency in Irish. The author of a detailed analysis of the survey, Donncha Ó hÉallaithe, described the Irish language policy followed by Irish governments a 'complete and absolute disaster.' The Irish Times (January 6, 2002), referring to his analysis, which was initially published in the Irish language newspaper Foinse, quoted him as follows: 'It is an absolute indictment of successive Irish Governments that at the foundation of the Irish State there were 250,000 fluent Irish speakers living in Irish-speaking or semi Irish-speaking areas, but the number now is between 20,000 and 30,000.'

According to the language survey, levels of fluency among families is 'very low', from 1% in Galway suburbs to a maximum of 8% parts of west Donegal. With such sharp decline, particularly among the young, the real danger exists that Irish will largely become extinct within two generations, possibly even one. While the language will continue to exist among English speakers who have learned fluency and are bilingual (though mainly English-speaking in their everyday lives) Gaeltachtaí embody more than just a language, but the cultural context in which it is spoken, through song, stories, social traditions, folklore and dance. The death of the Gaeltachtaí would make a break forever between Ireland's cultural past and identity, and its future. All sides, irrespective of their view on the methodology used by independent Ireland in its efforts to preserve the language, agree that such a loss would be a cultural tragedy of a monumental scale."

Any thoughts?

Congal Claen.

A tragedy that hardly bears contemplation. It is in the 'Gaeltacht' where the greatest decline is happening no doubt.

My own experience recently has been, and anecdotally when I speak to residents of Donegal Gaeltacht, that people are starting to wake up to the advantages of bi-lingualism and have more pride in their native tongue which has been lacking.

Often young people in the Gaeltacht have been afriad that people will see them as backward, but TG4 and new developments on RnaG too are helping to turn this around. The use of Irish in tourism is starting to waken up some folk too.

People are moving out of the Gaeltacht also which causes problems, due to them getting higher education and moving for professional jobs, marrying people from outside the native area, emigrating etc so I think there will be a decline and then a plateau. Although this is obviously conjecture (of the glass half full kind), I certainly don't think it naive or unrealistic.

The 3.5 million euros is to be spent on translations each year, not a one-off.

And sorry but you can't use the fact that there are Irish language TV/Radio stations to back up a claim that the language is alive when these stations are state funded!!

The difference between Irish and German/Swedish or whatever other EU languages you care to mention is that all the others are the most popularly spoken languages in their home country as well as some (like German) being widely spoken in others.

Irish is not. It's position as official language of the Irish Republic is only a token gesture, and now the EU's pandering to it too!

While they're spending money on worthless crap like this they want us to give up our rebate? Not bloody likely.

Congal,
The number of speakers in the Gaeltacht stabilised for the first time between 1996 and 2002 so maybe somebody somewhere is now doing something right. Or else, just people lying to keep their language grants.

Keithm,
They should have official status too if they want it, but there is a slight problem for them as, by Luxembourg law, all legislation in Luxembourg is in French only.

Hi Baluba/George,

Also from Wikipedia, on TG4...

"Attempts have been made to offer some support for the language through the media, notably the launch of Raidió na Gaeltachta (Gaeltacht radio) and Teilifís na Gaeilge (Irish language television, called initially 'TnaG', now completely renamed TG4); both have had limited success. TG4 has offered Irish-speaking young people a forum for youth culture as Gaeilge (in Irish) through rock and pop shows, travel shows, dating games, and even a controversial award-winning soap opera in Irish called Ros na Rún (featuring, among other characters, an Irish-speaking gay couple and their child). Most of TG4's viewership, however, tends to come from showing gaelic football, hurling and rugby matches, and films in English."

I think the important thing is not to ram it down people's throats. That does more harm than good. It may have been better for the Republic to register Irish as the 2nd official language and have it adopted as a minority language through The European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. It's Official status within the Republic being the barrier to that route. We'll just have to wait to see how things pan out...

I mentioned Ulster Scots only because it was mentioned earlier in the thread, with the implication that it was at least as strong a language as Irish.


As for state funded broadcasters ... the BBC is state funded. Does that mean their viewership/listnership should be regarded as irrelevant?


TG4 gets TAM ratings of 3-5% for its Irish only programs. RnaG is not listed in the JNLR survey since they don't broadcast adverts - but they have a daily listenership of somewhere around 100,000.


I stand by my point on German/Swedish because people who are likely to deal with EU legislation will in fact be fluent in English. I have lived in Germany for 10 years, and worked with Swedes frequently.

Anyone seen or heard from Davros?

Congal,
believe it or not I fear that there is a new thing on the block which Wikpedia doesn't mention and which might help improve the chances of the Irish language in the coming years: snobbery.

At the moment, Gaelscoileanna are the vehicles of choice for a child's education by many middle-class parents with the result that there are waiting lists the length of your arm to get in.

In fact, if you want to get your child into a secondary Gaelscoil you better be a past-pupil or have had your child educated through the medium of Irish in primary school to have any chance.

Reasons? Less foreign children, more dedicated teachers, no fees. It's like going to Blackrock College without stumping up the cash or playing the Rugger.

This has completely changed from the 80s when I was in school when a middle-class parent wouldn't touch a Gaelscoil with a barge-pole.

Hi George,

"snobbery"

Interesting point. I've heard CoI schools in Dublin have similar waiting lists. Any truth in it from your experience?

Beano,
it is not a token gesture to those who have learnt the language, it is extremely important.

It means those who study Irish in school and do well can apply for EU jobs as it is taken as an official language. One of the criticisms is that you can't get a well paid job, well now you can.

As for pandering, the British government could have vetoed it but they voted for it too.

Secondly, it means that you can now do your European as well as your national business through Irish or English. This the wish of the Irish government, the elected representatives of the Irish people.

"While they're spending money on worthless crap like this they want us to give up our rebate?"

What do we call somebody who considers another culture or language to be inferior to his own Beano? Ah yes, a supremacist. Was that comment a slipup or did the mask slip?

Or how would you describe yourself? Any other lanaguages you consider "worthless crap"?

Just because something isn't of value to you, doesn't mean it isn't of value.

As for the rebate, at 3 billion pounds it is over one thousand times more money than the Irish funding, try compare like with like.

James Orr
No linguist would consider Ulster-Scots a minority language.I didn't realize the implementation bodies legislation had been breached.
Nothing wrong in considering it a variety of English.

Baluba; you applying for the job then?

Baluba; you applying for the job then?

Baluba is happily employed at the moment and lives between Australia and Ireland.

Baluba also does not have the skills required for such a job. I translated for a while, found it too stressful and sometimes completely beyond me.

Translation is a trade to be learned, practised and mastered before you can do it.

Thanks for the vote of confidence though FF.

George, well said.

Beano, that was both insulting and wholly disrespectful. But what should I expect other than that.

Baluba,
If a person had a good knowledge of one of these languages-Irish,Manx,Cornish,Brittany,scots gaelic,welsh---which of the others could he almost understand if spoken.

MD
"But the wagons are circled and the injuns are learning Irish!"

Best line I heard in quite a while. ;)

Keith
"the comparison to Swedish and German ... (and I can tell you they don't all speak English!)."

Anyone who is likely to read EU documents probably does speak English. And in my experience (of working with both Swedes & Germans) anyone who is educated has some English.

"Might I remind you that Luxembourg does not have Luxembourgish as an official language"

That's their problem.

Beano
"While they're spending money on worthless crap like this they want us to give up our rebate?"

It may be worthless crap to you but it's not to us. And I must say I find that statement insulting.

CC
"It may have been better for the Republic to register Irish as the 2nd official language and have it adopted as a minority language through The European Charter"

Why?? Irish is already in a better position that it would be if you just relied on the charter.

How would reducing its status help at all?

Martin
"If a person had a good knowledge of one of these languages-Irish,Manx,Cornish,Brittany,scots gaelic,welsh---which of the others could he almost understand if spoken."

Irish Gaelic & Manx are all related. Speakers of one of these *might* understand something in one of the other languages in this group. Gaelic came from Irish remember.
However these are totally different to Cornish, Welsh or Breton.

Maca,

thanks

Biffo

I saw "Gaelic" and "Father McKenzie" and assumed you were talking about Scottish Gaelic. I realise my mistake

Why? I would imagine Father McKenzie was Irish. Or at least of Irish stock.

I can also see that, due to your political prejudices, you have a problem using the word Irish to describe the language.

Please desist from making judgements about people based, not on what they say, but on your own sectarian prejudices.

Whay have you got a problem with using the word "Irish"?

I don’t. In fact, I use it often.

George

As for wasting 3.5 million a year, peanuts I say.

It’s not peanuts to the starving millions.

To put this in context, there will be 200 million spent on horse racing in Ireland in the next five years. 43% of the EU budget is spent on farmers.

Unjustified spending in one area does not justify it in another.

your government voted for this as did mine and the other 23 EU countries so obviously your view that it is a waste is that of a tiny minority.

It’s not obvious as a government vote at the Council of Ministers is not evidence that the vast majority of its citizens are supportive of it. It has even been known for governments to make decisions opposed by the majority of their citizens. But that is an irrelevant point, anyway, since an argument is not wrong merely because it is held by the minority. Such thinking is very dangerous.

Olibhear Cromwell
How short your memory is Willowfield....

This comment makes no sense, since the passage you quoted does not show that I said, as you claimed, that spending money on Gaelic is a scandalous waste of money.

I asked you to stop being dishonest. Yet you continue.

Baluba

I thought I admitted to the laziness charge did I not? However, since you seem set to portray me as someone mouthing off with nothing to back up, you may refer to: Article 14 in the European Declaration of Human Rights [sic], and; Article 2 in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Neither of those sets out the language rights to which you seem to refer. Both simply state that the rights contained within each charter apply to everyone regardless of language. They make no mention of any particular language rights.

In any case, the language right to which you do refer, whether it has any legal form or not, would be met by my very reasonable proposal that provision for any demand to read EU documents in Gaelic can be made without wasting millions of euro on a gesture, i.e. by translating the documents on demand.

Your failure to respond to the point is noted.

While I have no problem with Irish being recognised as an important language, especially for the few thousand who may speak it in the home as a first language, I am wondering, apart from being such a waste of money, and who will actually read these documents translated into Irish, is it not discrimination against the tens of millions of people in Europe who speak Chinese, Urdu, Hindi or Arabic, etc. as a first language? Should they too not have all the documents translated into their languages?

Willow
"the language right to which you do refer ... would be met by my very reasonable proposal that provision ... can be made ... by translating the documents on demand."

Your post makes no sense. How does that address the 'language right'? Someone has the right to use & be dealt with in their own language and you want to give them mail order documents?

Anyway the "documents on demand" suggestion is nonsense.

6cp
"apart from being such a waste of money"
in your opinion,,,

"is it not discrimination against the tens of millions of people in Europe who speak Chinese, Urdu, Hindi or Arabic, etc. as a first language?"

Just curious, how long have you been highlighting this discrimination? How many years have you been campaigning for language rights for these minorities?

maca

Your post makes no sense.

It does.

How does that address the 'language right'?

By enabling people to read documents in Gaelic if that is their first language.

Someone has the right to use & be dealt with in their own language and you want to give them mail order documents?

I see nothing wrong with mailing them the documents. Emailing would be cheaper, though. And quicker.

Anyway the "documents on demand" suggestion is nonsense.

It's not nonsense. On the contrary, it is reasonable and sensible.

Willow
"By enabling people to read documents in Gaelic if that is their first language."

How does that address the language right? It doesn't.

"It's not nonsense. On the contrary, it is reasonable and sensible."

It's nonsense.

Anyone know the ulster scots translation of 'money laundering'

It's an expensive and pointless waste of money if the demand existed in the first place then they could simply translate the documents on demand as Willowfield suggests. However that demand doesn't exist. The key is the comment from Oilbhéar Chromaill "So Willowfield's solution is to translate documents on demand - now there's a thought. You employ people to translate documents and they sit on their hands until someone asks them to translate something. That's outside the box thinking alright." If they would be sitting around on their arses because of lack of demand then why bother in the first place? Any event, that misses the point - totally unnecessary to have people employed full time on such a job anyway, you subcontract it out when necessary - of course you need the demand for English/Irish translation agencies in the first place for that.

Why stop at Irish? Why not waste millions of taxpayers money translating documents into Turkish, Russian etc all of which have far more native speakers using the language on a daily basis than Irish. Catalan has 10 million speakers spread across 3 EU countries, shouldn't it have its own team of translators too?

If they were really serious about promoting the language then they would spend that money promoting the language at grassroots level. This should not only include the grammatical teaching etc but the cultural element. You can piss about as much as you want forcing people to learn languages at school but if those students subsequently solely use another language outside the classroom then its a wasted exercise. Instilling pride into people about the language, it's historical roots and longetivity will always be a far better thing to do. Those people will then use the language, making it a living form with its own literature, cinema etc to be enjoyed (hence more reason for learning the language) and most crucially, people will pass the language on to their kids from birth.

One thing that the Irish government should seriously consider is the creation of a new town in the Gaeltacht areas providing homes and jobs for upwards of 100000 people. As things stand, young people will leave the Gaeltacht areas in search of more lucrative work in Dublin or London where they will inevitably fall into speaking English with their peers.

Valenciano
I don't have time to answer your full post. You make some good points, but you also make the mistake, in my opinion, of focussing on just translating documents. There's obviously much more too it that simply translating a few treaties here and there. Is it that people don't want to see that there's more to it? Or maybe focussing on the documents makes for an easy target ..?

Willowfield

..Why? I would imagine Father McKenzie was Irish. Or at least of Irish stock.."

You can imagine all you like but it's a Scottish name and a Gaelic speaking Father McKenzie is going to sound more Scottish than Irish to any interested, half-informed person.

"..Please desist from making judgements about people based, not on what they say, but on your own sectarian prejudices.."

I've based my judgement entirely on what you've said.

I don't have sectarian prejudices. If you're saying I have, quote the offending comments.

Out of interest do you also consider disgraceful the longstanding British government policy of spending money on transations of official literature into Welsh?

Translating Irish will not be expensive, it will probably work out as one of the least expensive services provided by the EU. Anybody whose argument rests on the premise that this will be expensive is talking through their hole. It will not even constitute a drop in the ocean, maybe like a quarter of a drop or something.
Opposing this maesure is pure bigotry, no crocodile tears for a relatively negligible amount of money can hide that.

Hi Maca,

“Why?? Irish is already in a better position that it would be if you just relied on the charter.
How would reducing its status help at all?”

From my post previous to the one from which you quote…

“On balance, the overly enthusiastic promotion of Irish by the political and cultural elite from the 1920s did more harm than good to the language's longterm prospects.Instead of winning over people to the concept that they could speak Irish, they attempted to follow a process of saying they must speak Irish. That created a backlash that made many people more determined than ever not to.”

And, remembering that from it’s inception Irish has been the first language of the RoI "officially"…

“at the foundation of the Irish State there were 250,000 fluent Irish speakers living in Irish-speaking or semi Irish-speaking areas, but the number now is between 20,000 and 30,000.”

Therefore, I’m arguing that official status may not necessarily be the “help” that the Irish language needs. I haven’t read one post from someone who has said “Fek, I must start learning Irish because of it’s new status in the EU.”
The challenge for Irish language enthusiasts is how to gain new speakers. I don’t think this method will work…

“On balance, the overly enthusiastic promotion of Irish by the political and cultural elite from the 1920s did more harm than good to the language's longterm prospects.Instead of winning over people to the concept that they could speak Irish, they attempted to follow a process of saying they must speak Irish. That created a backlash that made many people more determined than ever not to.”

That'a not right. There was never enthusiastic promotion of irish, just "official status" lip service. It took til the 1970's and a civil rights campaign for Raidió na Gaeltachta to be set up.

"The challenge for Irish language enthusiasts is how to gain new speakers. I don’t think this method will work…"

The challenge for irish language enthusiasts is to encourage irish speaking parents pass the language to their children. This isn't a method, but at least they can say "Look, your language is recognised - be proud of it."

First off I apologise if anyone read my comment to mean that the Irish language was crap. That wasn't the point I was making, but I believe the process of wasting money spending money translating documents almost nobody reads into a language almost nobody reads.

"It means those who study Irish in school and do well can apply for EU jobs as it is taken as an official language. One of the criticisms is that you can't get a well paid job, well now you can."

This was exactly one of my criticisms. The move was intended to create jobs for people with valueless skills - as well as make an unpopular government and an unpopular EU look good. If you want a well paid job, study something useful!

Does anyone really believe this is about the Irish government's desire to enable their 20,000 fluent Irish speakers to read EU legislation? Had this been the case they could have easily been translating it themselves for years! It's nothing more than an ego trip and is symptomatic of the waste and bureaucracy in the EU.

typo:

but I believe the process of wasting money spending money translating documents almost nobody reads into a language almost nobody reads is crap.

Maca

I speak English, French and a minority language, fluently.

The inclusion of Irish as a working language is political rather than practical. 800 million euro per annum is an awful lot of money for the EU to spend on translation.

A French-speaking President recently stated that there are only two essential languages in the world today: English and the language of IT. Not to know them was like being illiterate.

The EU should have one working language: English. It would save a fortune, and eliminate discrimination.

I've stated before on this subject that you should be careful what you wish for.

There is now no defence against giving Catalan, Chinese, Urdu etc full working-language status. On that basis 21 could soon become 60. And that is simply ridiculous when the name of the game is cooperation.

It has been accepted that for free trade the EU needs common regulation. Many believe it needs a common currency. I think that moves like this only serve to make the case for a common language rather easier too.

The outcome of Irish (and, more dubious still, Maltese) as a working language will be negative for speakers of all languages (including Irish and Maltese) except English.

IJP "and, more dubious still, Maltese". Actually Maltese has a far stronger claim than Irish Gaelic given that almost everyone in Malta speaks it on a daily basis.

I do however take your point. There should be some form of sanity clause, where a language must be the first lanuage of (for example) 10m European citizens before it gets official status.

IJP, 6countyprod, Beano, Willowfield

In the light of your opinions on this issue how do you feel about the longstanding UK policy of spending money translating official government literature into Welsh?

Hi Biffo,

"That'a not right"

The quote was from Wikipedia. Not my words, but an outside observer. Personally, I think their outside judgment is quite close to the truth.

For example, Irish as the first language, compulsory at school, needed for civil service jobs, etc. I'd say that could be described as "overly enthusiastic promotion".

CC
"I’m arguing that official status may not necessarily be the “help” that the Irish language needs"

Well on that I can agree. Personally, this issue is one of respect, demonstrating the the Irish language is just as important as any other EU language. It's no magic solution for Irish, no one is claiming it is.

6cp
"The inclusion of Irish as a working language is political rather than practical."

A bit of both i'd say. Again, for me, the issue is one of respect.

"800 million euro per annum is an awful lot of
money for the EU to spend on translation."

It certainly is. But Irish is only 3.5m of this 800m and a fraction of what other countries spend on translation (46m).
Personally I think there should be 1-3 working languages and each government pays their own translation costs after that. In this case Irish would still have equal status.

"The EU should have one working language: English."
I don't entirely disagree but you will have a shit load of pissed off Europeans on your hands if you propose that. ;)

IJP
"On that basis 21 could soon become 60. And that is simply ridiculous when the name of the game is cooperation."

yes, and it might force a rethink of the whole system which is what is needed. I'd be happy either wey because it would mean Irish being treated the same as every other language instead of the previously "lesser status"

CC
"Irish as the first language"
Symbolic, overly enthusiastic? No. Promtion? No.

"compulsory at school"
How is that overly enthusiastic?

"needed for civil service jobs"
Irish is NOT needed for civil service jobs. In fact I think you're about 30 years behind the times on this one ;)

Congal Clean posted: The move was intended to create jobs for people with valueless skills - as well as make an unpopular government and an unpopular EU look good. If you want a well paid job, study something useful!

For some one who claims he doesn't think Irish is 'crap', what does the above post tell you about your sincerity and your respect for diversity?

What it tells me is that you believe school is nothing nore than a factory for producing people with 'skills' not a place where people are educated about life and culture, the type of education that encourages people to take a more fuller role in life and not just a training which merely equips people to a much lesser and inferior extent to take part in the rat race.

For your information learning Irish, as well as being part of a wider life enhancing education, equips people with skills which are more than useful. Learning Irish helps rather than hinders people who want to learn other languages - this is not a claim but scientific fact according to a University of London study - and, on top of that, there is an increasing market for Irish language skills, not just in translation but also in journalism, writing for TV, writing Children's Books, multi media, internet and so on.

I believe the process of wasting money spending money translating documents almost nobody reads into a language almost nobody reads.

I'm all for less documents almost nobody reads. I think the EU should cut it's paperwork by 99.99% and then cut it the same again. That would cut down more on the 800m euro budget than would cutting Irish out of the picture.

Argung for a cut in EU paperwork doesn't mean the same - or shouldn't mean the same - as cutting out the number of languages in which the remaining essential paperwork is available in. The EU was supposed to be - at its inception - a coalition of equals working towards economic prosperity of all and so on - that' still an admirable goal. It was never meant to be about devaluing each country's culture for the sake of an all encompassing one union one culture policy.

There are lots of problems with the EU as it stands. I myself am not for the EU Constitution and have found myself to be against every single EU treaty since - and including - Maastricht. But the Irish language should not be the fall guy in all of this.

My own view is that people such as Congal and Willowfield are using the EU as a stick to beat Irish because it suits their sectarian agendas. The well being of the EU is the least of their concerns - they just want to give the Irish and those who speak it a kicking.

Hi Maca,

Also from Wikipedia...

"The independent Irish state from 1922 launched a major push to promote the Irish language, with some of its leaders hoping that the state would become predominantly Irish-speaking within a generation. In fact, many of these initiatives, notably compulsory Irish at school and the requirement that one must know Irish to be employed in the civil service, proved counter-productive with generations of school-children alienated by what was often heavily-handed attempts at indoctrination, that created a cultural backlash."

My comment about the civil service should be read in this context.

Although, I suspect we'll just have to disagree...

CC
Well it's still not a requirement...

Wikipedia is a useful source of 'basic' information, though in some cases the info is not so accurate.

Hi OC,

"Congal Clean posted: The move was intended to create jobs for people with valueless skills - as well as make an unpopular government and an unpopular EU look good. If you want a well paid job, study something useful!
For some one who claims he doesn't think Irish is 'crap', what does the above post tell you about your sincerity and your respect for diversity?"

Not guilty OC. I think you're talking about someone else. Possibly Beano? Am I now a tout? Oh and, it's Claen. Unless you know something about my personal hygiene?

"My own view is that people such as Congal and Willowfield are using the EU as a stick to beat Irish because it suits their sectarian agendas. The well being of the EU is the least of their concerns - they just want to give the Irish and those who speak it a kicking.

I suspect you'll retract the above when you realise you've got the wrong guy?

I should have read that more carefully. I see the point you make there, however is it worth noting that since the compulsory requirement was removed from entry to the civil service that Irish services have actually declined? Does that not counter their point above?

My apologies Congal.

It was Beano - I should have known.

But the substance of the post still stands in relation to him and his fellow travellers.

Maca

How does that address the language right? It doesn't.

It does. And I already explained. See above.

It's nonsense.

It's not nonsense. On the contrary, it is reasonable and sensible.

Biffo

You can imagine all you like but it's a Scottish name and a Gaelic speaking Father McKenzie is going to sound more Scottish than Irish to any interested, half-informed person.

Not too many Scottish-Gaelic-speakers in Liverpool. Plenty of Irish, though.

I've based my judgement entirely on what you've said.

You haven’t. You’ve based it on sectarian prejudices.

I don't have sectarian prejudices. If you're saying I have, quote the offending comments.

I already did quote them (the clue is in the quoted passage directly above the comment to which you are responding). But let me repeat the comments: at 3.12pm on 14 June you said: “I can also see that, due to your political prejudices, you have a problem using the word Irish to describe the language”. That comment was based, not on anything I said, but on your own sectarian prejudices (i.e. the assumption that anyone who doesn’t refer to the Irish Gaelic language as “Irish”, does so because of “political prejudices”).

Out of interest do you also consider disgraceful the longstanding British government policy of spending money on transations of official literature into Welsh?

I don’t know enough about it. What kind of demand is there? How much does it cost?

Bootman

Translating Irish will not be expensive

According to the blog, it will cost 3.5m euro annually.

Opposing this maesure is pure bigotry, no crocodile tears for a relatively negligible amount of money can hide that.

Dismissing reasonable and constructive points as “pure bigotry” is, ironically, bigotry.

Olibhear Chromwaill

My own view is that people such as Congal and Willowfield are using the EU as a stick to beat Irish because it suits their sectarian agendas. The well being of the EU is the least of their concerns - they just want to give the Irish and those who speak it a kicking.

You were asked before to stop making assumptions about what people say based on your own sectarian prejudices. Yet you continue. You were advised to respond to what people say, not to your own sectarian assumptions about what you think they are saying. Yet you fail to heed the advice. You were asked to be honest. Yet, above, you repeated a lie.

If you are incapable of engaging honestly on Slugger, please don’t bother commenting.

OIlbhéar Chromaill

But the substance of the post still stands in relation to him and his fellow travellers.

It doesn't.

PLEASE DESIST FROM MAKING UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT PEOPLE.

willowfield
-
PLEASE DESIST FROM MAKING UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT PEOPLE

what about poor Fr. McKenzie?
Check out the number of McKenzies in the phone book in
Glasgow - the high hundreds if not thousands

versus http://159.134.203.172/search_res.asp?initial=&surname=mckenzie&townres=&countyres=Dublin&SearchRes=Search&source=Eircom&ss=hp">Dublin - 24

The cultural reference has completely by-passed you.

Poor.

arsebiscuits.

Dublin

Willowfield,

"That comment was based, not on anything I said, but on your own sectarian prejudices (i.e. the assumption that anyone who doesn’t refer to the Irish Gaelic language as “Irish”, does so because of “political prejudices”)."

Pleae retract your incredibly stupid (where have I alluded to your religion), insulting and blatantly groundless accusation.

Here's why I think you are prejudiced.

You describe this issue of EU funding for translations of official literature into Irish as disgraceful, when that money could be better spent providing aid to Africa.

Yet the UK has had a longstanding policy of providing funding for translations of official literature into Welsh, when that money could be spent on aid to Africa.

If this was a genuine matter of concern you would have condemned the "disgraceful" situation in the UK long ago, as you have been giving your tuppence worth for a long time on slugger and this subject comes up so often.

I have based my opinion on what you say and on what you fail to say in these posts. I judge you accordingly.

Now what about the funding of translations of official literature into Welsh? Is it a disgrace, and if so, do you condemn it?

You mean Elanor?

FFS, Father McKenzie's nationality is of absolutely no relevance.

The cultural reference has obviously completely by-passed you.

Poor.

Ah now Willowfield - those sort of things don't pass me by. ;)

Biffo

Pleae retract your incredibly stupid (where have I alluded to your religion), insulting and blatantly groundless accusation.

I will not retract the observation that you made a comment based, not on anything that I said, but on your own sectarian prejudices (i.e. the assumption that anyone who doesn’t refer to the Irish Gaelic language as “Irish”, does so because of “political prejudices”). Why? Because it is a truthful observation. Your prejudices are sectarian because you assume something about me based on your perception that I come from the unionist community.

Here's why I think you are prejudiced. You describe this issue of EU funding for translations of official literature into Irish as disgraceful, when that money could be better spent providing aid to Africa. Yet the UK has had a longstanding policy of providing funding for translations of official literature into Welsh, when that money could be spent on aid to Africa.

The fact that 3.5m euro will be wasted on translating EU documents that no-one will read into Gaelic in order to meet zero demand from Gaelic-speakers is not altered by reference to other money that may or may not be wasted elsewhere.

If this was a genuine matter of concern you would have condemned the "disgraceful" situation in the UK long ago, as you have been giving your tuppence worth for a long time on slugger and this subject comes up so often.

The subject of Welsh translations has never come up during my time on Slugger. As I have already pointed out to you, I am unaware of whether or not Welsh translations are “disgraceful”, so, even if the subject had arisen, I would not have been able to make such a comment, unless information had been provided, in which case I would have drawn a conclusion based on that information.

I have based my opinion on what you say and on what you fail to say in these posts. I judge you accordingly.

You and others have been advised to judge people on what they say, not on what your prejudices lead you to believe they might be saying. Unfortunately, judging someone because they haven’t commented on a subject that isn’t under discussion, has never been under discussion, and hasn’t even been raised, is no better than judging them on your prejudices.

I would urge you again to stick to commenting on what people say, and not to make judgements about them based on prejudice. If you take issue with what someone says, by all means, challenge the person; or if you suspect someone of something, ask them to clarify; but refrain from unfounded assumptions.

Now what about the funding of translations of official literature into Welsh? Is it a disgrace, and if so, do you condemn it?

All I can do is refer you back to my previous comment on the matter, and to my further comment above.

Didn't think it would pass anyone by, Ringo! Hence my surprise.

The cultural reference has obviously completely by-passed you.

Poor. ;)

Willowfield

You still haven't quoted any sectarian remarks I made, what the matter? having difficulty finding them? Of course you are, you are talking through your arse.

Your comdemnation of Irish translation in this thread and your silence on the issue of Welsh translating services in the UK reeks of hypocracy, double standards, prejudice, ignorance,

Oh, and by the way your are crap at sustaining any kind of argument

So when are Welsh, Cornish, Scots Gaelic and Scots/Ulster-Scots going to become official EU languages alongside dozens of other minority languages?

No harm to the Irish language but is it not an expensive precendent? Surely other such languages are now entitled to the same rights in the council?
Far better to put the money into the Irish language in Ireland than into translating a pile of legal documents.

I speak Irish as my first language and (unfortunatly for me!) I often have to read documents regarding the EU as part of my University course. I feel more comfortable reading in Irish as it is more natural to me and so the info sinks in more easily. Therefore this initiative will benifit me, and others like me greatly. Although people like myself are seen as a minority and translation on demand is often suggested, this is not an option. I am often told to go home and read a certain document for the next day, and so a request for a translation is unlikely to be answered in time. Why should my learning be disadvantaged to save money?

Willowfield posted:
Olibhear Chromwaill

My own view is that people such as Congal and Willowfield are using the EU as a stick to beat Irish because it suits their sectarian agendas. The well being of the EU is the least of their concerns - they just want to give the Irish and those who speak it a kicking.

You were asked before to stop making assumptions about what people say based on your own sectarian prejudices. Yet you continue. You were advised to respond to what people say, not to your own sectarian assumptions about what you think they are saying. Yet you fail to heed the advice. You were asked to be honest. Yet, above, you repeated a lie.

If you are incapable of engaging honestly on Slugger, please don’t bother commenting.

Who made you captain of this ship? You can't set the terms by which we comment here. You have repeatedly engaged in a sectarian tirade against Irish and when confronted with the evidence you have come up with the rubbish contained in your 12.45pm posting (not that any posting of yours is any more lucid or less offensive).

This is typical of the crap we constantly get from unionist representatives.

So engage with the arguments and deal with them. Or else witter away witlessly.

Go díreach, a ssr - but some people think you and I don't have the right to read in our own language simply because we have more advanced language skills than them. And also, sadly, some people will believe 100% that you and I are lying when we say Irish is any easier for us to digest than English.

I remember when I worked in an Irish Pub in Germany, in the British Sector, the soldiers talking about whay the stupid Germans insisted on speaking bloody German when they could already speak English. Monoglot lingo-centrism which is all too popular among English-speakers of the world.

I also live between Australia and Ireland and the prevailing attitude (in my experience) in Australia is that English should be adopted as the language of South-East Asia even though it is incredibly outnumbered. It's a superiority complex (and perhaps a bit of laziness).

"Why should my learning be disadvantaged to save money?"

That is the crux of the matter. Why should other languages not receive the same then? The cost would be horrendous and the paperwork would be unreal and to do what? The minority languages are exactlt that and usually the speakers are 100% fluent in another language. By all means pour money into regional minority laguage projects in their own areas where the languages are spoken but I feel the EU should confine its business to the main languages saving money and also time.

The EU is already a bloated unefficient heaven for lawyers, translators and porky politicians.

Spend it on the health service or an Irish language school.

Alan2/Baluba -

I don't believe a word of ssr (isn't that short strand resident?) post.

I feel more comfortable reading in Irish as it is more natural to me and so the info sinks in more easily.

complete nonsense.

Good man yourself Ringo! Prove my suspicions to be true - the cynicism and mistrust of some knows no bounds.

Fear gan mhuinín, fear gan chara.

méanfach - should I be suprised with such a response from ringo?

ringo, do you speak another language? If you do, undoubtedly you find it easier to read in your first language (presumably english)?

I was simply highlighting that the demand for translations is there, albeit a small one. what a small minded way to look at my post - náireach!

(And yes, the ssr is short strand resident. I shortened it a few weeks ago for convenience and because a number of posters were refering to me as ssr)

Inis dom Baluba, cén áit a bhfuil SSR (an fhíor-gaelgóir) ina gcónaí? I lár Béal Feirste?
Agus tú féin mar in gceanna?

Níl ollscoil ar bith ins na Gaeltachtaí. Ceann saighas céim atá sé a dheanabh? Níl duine ar bith ann anois atá ábalta paipeirí teichnuil ón Eorap a léamh i nGaeilge, gan bearla a léamh agus a labhairt chomh maith. (Tá sé soileir go bhfuil sé deachair go lóir le haigh SSR phostáil i mBearla, ach dar liomsa, níl sé mar gheall ar an Gaeilge)

Má tá dearmad déanta agam, bheidh sibh in ann mo Gaeilge garbh a cheartú.

Seafóid.

Ní bheadh barúil dá laghad agam cá háit a bhfuil ssr ina chónaí. Tá mé féin i mo chónaí ar Bhóthar na bhFál in Iarthar Bhéal Feirste.

Tá Ollscoileanna i nGaillimh agus i nGaoth Dobhair.

Is cinnte gur féidir liomsa na caipéisí a léamh. Ní dhéarfainn go dtuigfinn gach focal (ag brath ar an ábhar) ach thiocfadh liom an rud ceannainn céanna a rá faoin Bhéarla más rud teicniúil atá ann.

Tá cead ag cainteoirí dúchais cónaí áit ar bith ar an oileán seo, an bhfuil a fhios agat sin?

Níl mórán lochta ar do chuid Ghaeilge, a chara, ba cheart duit í a úsáid go rialta agus tiocfaidh sí ar ais chugat go grámhar.

Seans go bhfuil 'seafóid' ina theachtaireacht. Cá bhfios? Níl ganntanas céille áfach lena bhfuil á rá aige ach oiread.

Má tá tú ag rá go mbeinnse níos ábalta caipéisí an AE a léamh as Béarla, tá tú contráilte. Is féidir leat glacadh le mo fhocal nó neamhaird a dhéanamh de, is cuma sa tsioc liomsa.

Scríobh Ringo:
Níl ollscoil ar bith ins na Gaeltachtaí


Níl sé sin cruinn. Tá cuideanna de Ollscoil na Gaillimhe i nGaeltacht Chonamara, mar shampla. Tá an Crannóg an i nGaoth Dobhair, (http://www.crannog.ie). Tá an Díseart sa Daingean, ....


Pé scéal é, nach cuma cá háit atá SSR ar an Ollscoil - cen bhaint atá aige sin leis an teanga inár féidir agus gur fearr leis léamh?


Tá Gaeilge, Gearmáinís agus Béarla agam - ach is fearr liom rudaí airithe a léamh i dteanga airithe. Chuir mé fíos, dala an scéil, ar an mBunreacht Eorpach as gaeilge ar mhaithe len é a léamh - má bhíonn reifreann againn anseo ó dheas.


Tá an-ghreann le baint as.

I hope some of the monitors speak Irish, and can give us a good translation of the previous posts, ...upaid, of course.

read: ...unpaid, of course!

Baluba
"The prevailing attitude in Australia is that English should be adopted as the language of S.E.Asia"
We have already got Singlish we don't need Strine!

Willow
"It does. And I already explained. See above."
It doesn't, and obviously you have zero understanding of the issue.

"It's not nonsense. On the contrary, it is reasonable and sensible."
it's nonsense.

Alan2
"So when are Welsh, Cornish, Scots Gaelic and Scots/Ulster-Scots going to become official EU languages alongside dozens of other minority languages?"

That's up to you in the UK isn't it? Those are not even official languages in your state, that might be the best place to start.

"Why should other languages not receive the same then?"

This was a question I asked before Irish was made a working language. 'Why can't Irish receive the same?' It was a "lesser language". All languages should be treated equally IMO.
Obviously this is unmanageable and as you say "the cost would be horrendous and the paperwork would be unreal". A rethink of the system is needed. People have a right to receive services in their own language, but the cost/work should be borne by each government for it's own language. IMO.

"usually the speakers are 100% fluent in another language."

Most Europeans can speak English so why not have anything only in English? Would that be fair?

6cp
"I hope some of the monitors speak Irish, and can give us a good translation of the previous posts"

It's nothing you need be concerned about. ;)

MF
"We have already got Singlish we don't need Strine!"

Can leh.
Cool language, lah!

Biffo

You still haven't quoted any sectarian remarks I made

Why would I do that? I never claimed you made any sectarian remarks. I stated that you made a comment based, not on what I said, but on your own sectarian prejudices. If you read my post made at 1.48pm, instead of ignoring it, you will find an explanation.

Your comdemnation of Irish translation in this thread and your silence on the issue of Welsh translating services in the UK reeks of hypocracy [sic], double standards, prejudice, ignorance,

Please read what I say. It is all explained for you. I have said nothing that could be construed as hypocrisy, double standards, prejudice or ignorance.

Again, I must ask you to desist from making sectarian assumptions. Respond to what I say, not to what your prejudices lead you to believe what I say.

If you cannot do this, then there's no point in you engaging in discussions with me or anyone else.

Oh, and by the way your are crap at sustaining any kind of argument

Really? If that is true, you will be able to tell me what argument have i failed to sustain.

Olibhear Cromwell

Who made you captain of this ship? You can't set the terms by which we comment here.

I can make observations and give advice.

You have repeatedly engaged in a sectarian tirade against Irish

STOP LYING. If you do not desist from lying, you will be ignored.

and when confronted with the evidence you have come up with the rubbish contained in your 12.45pm posting (not that any posting of yours is any more lucid or less offensive).

What evidence? Evidence of what? And what "rubbish"? If I posted rubbish, presumably you would be able to explain why you think it is rubbish. Yet you don't.

This is typical of the crap we constantly get from unionist representatives.

More irrelevant sectarian prejudice.

So engage with the arguments and deal with them. Or else witter away witlessly.

I have been engaging with the arguments. You, on the other hand, have been ignoring what people say and, instead, basing your comments on sectarian prejudices.

Willowfield

" I stated that you made a comment based, not on what I said, but on your own sectarian prejudices

Once again, show me where I made any reference to your religion.

"Please read what I say. It is all explained for you. I have said nothing that could be construed as hypocrisy, double standards, prejudice or ignorance."

I have already explained that what you have said and what you have failed to say is what i have commented on and it would reveal to any fair-minded and reasonable person (like myself) that you are prejudiced towards the Irish language.

I'll spell it out again. You have condemned as a disgrace and a scandal the fact that the EU is spending money translating official literature into Irish rather than spending it on providing clean drinking water in Africa.

However you have nothing to say about the fact that the UK has, for many years, been spending money translating official literature into Welsh rather than providing clean drinking water in Africa.

It's a well known fact, they've been doing it openly for years. I know about it, everybody knows about it and you've definately known about it at least since yesterday. Yet what words of condemnation do I hear from you? Not a one

I can therefore deduce that you don't have a problem with anybody spending money on translating into a language in principle. But you object when that language happens to be Irish.

It's conclusive proof that you are prejudiced towards the Irish language.

"Again, I must ask you to desist from making sectarian assumptions. Respond to what I say, not to what your prejudices lead you to believe what I say."

Again where did I mention anybody's religion?

"Really? If that is true, you will be able to tell me what argument have i failed to sustain."

That you are not prejudiced against the Irish.

..against the Irish language.

Maca

it might force a rethink of the whole system which is what is needed. I'd be happy either wey because it would mean Irish being treated the same as every other language instead of the previously "lesser status"

Very good point.

Keith M

Actually Maltese has a far stronger claim than Irish Gaelic given that almost everyone in Malta speaks it on a daily basis.

I think the claim is similar, but that's really my point - if you start playing numbers, Catalan's through the door before Danish, never mind Irish!

Biffo

In what way does what I've written come even close to Willowfield's, Beano's or 6countyprod's expressed views? I trust you are not turning this into another case of 'black' versus 'write'.

I'll state clearly what I stated before: those of us who want to hear Irish in Castle Court should be a little concerned about its status as an EU working language, because in practice this may merely serve to relegate it in terms of actual use (as well as deflecting attention away from the need to promote the language in communities, not least those currently speaking the language where the new generation is not).

With respect, your equivalence to Welsh is potatoes and eggs. Giving Irish working language status makes it very difficult to reject Welsh, since it is more widely spoken and is a parallel language of a clearly defined, devolved EU region. And that is the crux of my point - how long can the list go on?

Please take each view given on Slugger as the individual's, not the 'perceived groups'. To do the latter is prejudice (literally).

Aonghus/Baluba

Fair play duit Baluba - is feidir leatsa 'walk the walk' mar a dearfá, ach fós níl freaga ar bith ó SSR, agus beidhmar ag fanacht go dtí go mbeidh amigo flúirseach no foclóir níos fearr aige lá eigeann eile.

Níl ganntanas céille áfach lena bhfuil á rá aige ach oiread.

B'fheidir nach bhfuil an uair seo, ach is minic atá rudaí a bhfad nios measa le rá aige, faoin ainm SSR nó ceann eile - níl ann ach phleice.

Tá cuideanna de Ollscoil na Gaillimhe i
nGaeltacht Chonamara
Ceart go lóir, is cuimhin liom anois- thíos i gCarna. Ní raibh fíos agam faoin ceann in Dún na
nGall. Ní creidim go bhfuil sé a dhéanamh céim ina bhfuil ar téacs ón Eorap le léamh, in ollscoil, in aon áit.

Má tá tú ag rá go mbeinnse níos ábalta caipéisí an AE a léamh as Béarla, tá tú contráilte. Is féidir leat glacadh le mo fhocal nó neamhaird a dhéanamh de, is cuma sa tsioc liomsa.

gabh mo leithsceal, ach fós, ní feidir liom é sinn a chreidint. Cad tá cearr le do Bhéarla?
An bhfuil tú cosuil le Paudi O Sé - mar a duirt Ger Power 'Paudi speaking English is like a chimpazee juggling a ming vase'.

IJP

Apologies for lumping you in with Willowfield Beano and 6countyprod. From your commenting history on this site you generally rate high in my estimation (but not always).

What did bug me earlier was your "The outcome of Irish (and, more dubious still, Maltese) as a working language .."

I don't think there is anything dubious about irish or maltese being a working language. I fully support them. Likwise Welsh, Catalan, even Ulster Scots (when they finish inventing it:). There are a finite number of languages so your concern about "where will it end.." suggests that you feel you can draw the line at which languages can be used. Why, it's perfectly valid to use them all if anybody speaks them. What's the European Charter on Minority Languages for anyway?

It costs money - so what? It costs money to translate into English, most of the 450+ million people in the EU don't speak English. Only 65 odd million speak it as their native language, less than German. Take your argument to it's logical conclusion German should be the only language used, English being a waste of money.

I can understand people getting worked up about the cost of the common agricultural policy. But the cost of the EU simply translating and printing material in another European language - what's the big deal? The fact is that it already happens domestically in the UK and nobody complains.

Willowfield, I missed one of your earlier contributions. I'll deal with it now.

"The fact that 3.5m euro will be wasted on translating EU documents that no-one will read into Gaelic in order to meet zero demand from Gaelic-speakers is not altered by reference to other money that may or may not be wasted elsewhere"

How do you know? Show me a verifiable source for your claim that there will be zero demand.

You said about Irish - "What a scandalous waste of public money on gesture politics. Disgraceful"

Later you said..

"I am unaware of whether or not Welsh translations are “disgraceful”, so, even if the subject had arisen, I would not have been able to make such a comment, unless information had been provided, in which case I would have drawn a conclusion based on that information."

Therefore, when the EU spends money translating official literature into Irish it's "scandalous" and a "disgrace".

But when the UK spends money translating official literature into Welsh, you can't comment. It's conclusive, irrefutable proof that you are prejudiced towards Irish because the nature of the activity is exactly the same, only the language is different.

"Unfortunately, judging someone because they haven’t commented on a subject that isn’t under discussion, has never been under discussion, and hasn’t even been raised, is no better than judging them on your prejudices."

The topic for discussion is funding for the translation of official literature into a minority language, you are talking through your arse yet again.

"Not too many Scottish-Gaelic-speakers in Liverpool..."

Do you mean here "Not too many Scottish people who speak Irish in liverpool.."?

Or maybe ""Not too many Scottish people who speak Manx in liverpool.."?

Ringo,

Go mó leithsceal, ní feidir liom freagra a thabhairt duit anois, tá mé ag deanamh homework. Tá me ag leamh paipeirí teichnuil ón Eorap, beidh scrudú ann amarach, Cá bhfuil those translators?

Biffo

Once again, show me where I made any reference to your religion.

Why or how would I do that?

I have already explained that what you have said and what you have failed to say is what i have commented on and it would reveal to any fair-minded and reasonable person (like myself) that you are prejudiced towards the Irish language.

You have explained nothing of the sort. Show me where you have explained how what I have said would reveal "prejudice towards the Irish language".

As for what I have failed to say, it has already been pointed out to you that judging someone because they haven’t commented on a subject that isn’t under discussion, has never been under discussion, and hasn’t even been raised, is no better than judging them on your prejudices.

I would ask you to desist from judging someone in such an ignorant way.

If you wish to know my views on a subject, all you have to do is ask. Making sectarian assumptions is unnecessary, as well as unfortunate and out-of-order.

I'll spell it out again. You have condemned as a disgrace and a scandal the fact that the EU is spending money translating official literature into Irish rather than spending it on providing clean drinking water in Africa. However you have nothing to say about the fact that the UK has, for many years, been spending money translating official literature into Welsh rather than providing clean drinking water in Africa.

I already advised you, at 12.45pm today, that I don’t know enough about it to comment. I then asked you for some information (What kind of demand is there? How much does it cost?) in order to enable me to comment. You failed to provide such information, therefore I remain unable to comment.

If you want to provide the information, I will certainly offer you my views on whether or not I think spending the money on it is a waste.

It's a well known fact, they've been doing it openly for years. I know about it, everybody knows about it and you've definately [sic] known about it at least since yesterday.

We know they do it, but what we don't know are the two pertinent facts: how much it costs and what the demand is. Since you fail to provide these, it is not possible to make a judgement on whether or not the spending is wasteful.

Yet what words of condemnation do I hear from you? Not a one

Why would I condemn something about which I do not know the pertinent facts? You may be in the habit of such prejudiced judgements. I reserve judgements until I have sufficient knowledge to make them.

I can therefore deduce that you don't have a problem with anybody spending money on translating into a language in principle.

Certainly I have no problem about translating languages in principle!

But you object when that language happens to be Irish.

I would ask you to stop lying. I have never said such a thing, and I do not believe such a thing.

It's conclusive proof that you are prejudiced towards the Irish language.

It's conclusive proof of nothing.

Again where did I mention anybody's religion?

I'm unaware of you mentioning anybody's religion. Why do you ask?

"Really? If that is true, you will be able to tell me what argument have i failed to sustain. ... That you are not prejudiced against the Irish.

It is not up to me to sustain such an argument. It is up to you to make the argument that I am "prejudiced against the Irish". It's your argument: the onus is on you to prove it.

"The fact that 3.5m euro will be wasted on translating EU documents that no-one will read into Gaelic in order to meet zero demand from Gaelic-speakers is not altered by reference to other money that may or may not be wasted elsewhere" ... How do you know?

Er, it's basic logic. A and B are independent premises. A has no bearing on B.

Show me a verifiable source for your claim that there will be zero demand.

It is logically not possible to prove that there will be zero demand: one cannot prove a negative. The onus is on those claiming that there will be demand, to demonstrate it. Can you demonstrate it?

Common sense says there will be little or no demand, since (a) very few people read Gaelic as a first language; and (b) EU documents are not exactly best sellers.

You said about Irish - "What a scandalous waste of public money on gesture politics. Disgraceful"

You would do well to try to retain accuracy. I said that about the decision to spend 3.5m euro on translating EU documents into Gaelic.

Therefore, when the EU spends money translating official literature into Irish it's "scandalous" and a "disgrace".

That doesn't follow at all. First, I have never claimed that translating official literature into Gaelic was "scandalous" and a "disgrace". On the contrary, I have put forward a proposal that documents should be translated on demand.

Second, it does not follow that because one doesn't know whether or not translating UK government documents into Welsh is scandalous, that translating EU documents into Gaelic must therefore be scandalous. There is no logic there whatsoever.

But when the UK spends money translating official literature into Welsh, you can't comment.

I can't comment on whether or not the money is wasted without the necessary information. Of course not.

It's conclusive, irrefutable proof that you are prejudiced towards Irish because the nature of the activity is exactly the same, only the language is different.

It's proof of nothing. The "nature of the activity" is not at issue! The issue is the wasting of resources.

"Unfortunately, judging someone because they haven’t commented on a subject that isn’t under discussion, has never been under discussion, and hasn’t even been raised, is no better than judging them on your prejudices."

The topic for discussion is funding for the translation of official literature into a minority language

No. It's much more specific than that: it's this particular decision to fund translations for which there is no demand.

, you are talking through your arse yet again.

I am not. Nor have I been. Judging from the above, it would seem that you have.

"Not too many Scottish-Gaelic-speakers in Liverpool..." Do you mean here "Not too many Scottish people who speak Irish in liverpool.."?
Or maybe ""Not too many Scottish people who speak Manx in liverpool.."?

Sorry, none of the above makes sense. You obviously missed the cultural reference!

Now that we've got all of that out of the way, would you care actually to discuss the issue in hand? Why don't you tell us why it makes sense to spend 3.5m euro translating documents into Gaelic, most of which will never be read, when it would be possible to translate them on demand at much reduced cost?

Willowfield

I've already dealt conclusively with all the repeat comments and questions you raised there,

I'd advise you to go back and read my stuff again, don't worry take your time, do it as many times as you like, takes notes if you want.

Willowfield,

You say one thing and later on you deny that you said it and all I have to do is scroll up to see it.

You've given me a chuckle! Do actually you believe anything you post on slugger?

Moderator,

You deleted the comment previous to the last one. Maybe it sounded bad, or maybe you have no sense of humour, it was meant to be a friendly jibe. Surely you can tolerate a bit of slegging?

Anyway, Willowfield, in case you didn't get a chance to read it. I was saying I did bother to read your entire spiel, thanks for taking the time, but It's just one long mostly meaningless ramble, you enjoy chasing your tail.

Moderator

I also note that you didn't delete any of Willowfields comments where he repeatedly accuses me of sectarianism, yet nowhere do I make any reference to his perceived community background, his religious convictions, or his broader political opinions - all of which I have no interest in.

[ed. Mod]

In my opinion all the states of europe have a right to have their spoken languages recognised in europe. I think this will help the language, north and south. The language is part of our identity and if it wasn't for the british we'd still be speaking it today! Fortunately alot of people still speak the language. I myself am able to converse using the basics in irish although im a better speaker than a writer. Unionists deamonise the language as it is often spoken by sf members. They have to realise many irish people speak irish not just SF!

An gaelige na h-eireann agus an copobal europach
go maith!

WIllow, i'd be interested in your answer re:Welsh (or Socts for that matter). Truth is you/we know as much facts about that as Irish so there's nothing stopping you commenting on it. If the Welsh go for the slimmed-down status like Irish or Maltese it will cost €3.5 million. If the Welsh want the same as other Euro languages it will cost up to €46 million. None of us know the real "facts" about demand, all we can do is guestimate.

Socts = should have been Gaelic (Gd), brain frizzle...

A Ringo, a chara,

Níl caill ar bith ar mo chuid Béarla (agus labharaim Gearmainis fosta gan mórán stró), ach nuair atá téamaí casta i gceist, is as Gaeilge a thig liom iad a bhriseadh síos níos fusa.

(Gabh mo leithscéal as gan freagra a thabhairt duit inné ach bhí duine ag feitheamh orm ar pháirc imeartha le greadadh millteanach a thabhairt dom - mothaím inniú orm é.)

Those who keep repeating that there is 'zero demand' for this unanimous move by the EU have forgotten that if it was asked for in the first place, there's demand uimhir a haon (#1), and did you all miss the thousands of people marching and sending in petitions (all political parties in the South and the two nationalist parties in the North included) endorsing it through the 'Stádas' campaign?

There is demand and if I may make a wild, sweeping, make up my own statistics, piece of conjecture as many others are wont to do on this site, I'd say that the vast majority of people in the 26 think it is a good idea and 99.999% of nationalists in the 6 do too.

Do I have any proof of that? No, but it seems that often you don't need it on this site. Call it a gut feeling, anecdotal evidence, common sense....

6countyprod wrote

I hope some of the monitors speak Irish, and can give us a good translation of the previous posts, ...unpaid, of course

Biffo

I've already dealt conclusively with all the repeat comments and questions you raised there,

You haven't dealt conclusively with anything. All you've done is make assumptions based on prejudice, rather than dealing with what I actually say.

I'd advise you to go back and read my stuff again, don't worry take your time, do it as many times as you like, takes notes if you want.

Certainly. In what you have said you have made the following assumptions, none of which I have said, and none of which is true. All the assumptions are based on your own prejudices. If you actually bothered to ask me my views on any of them, rather than make assumptions, you would realise that everything you have said is wrong.

1. You said (June 14, 2005 03:12 PM) that due my "political prejudices", I "have a problem using the word Irish to describe the language". That is untrue.

2. You said (June 14, 2005 03:26 PM) that I had a "a problem with using the word "Irish"". Again, this is untrue.

3. You said (June 15, 2005 08:58 PM) that I only object to spending money on translating "when that language happens to be Irish". This is untrue.

4. You said (June 15, 2005 08:58 PM) that I was "prejudiced towards the Irish language". This is untrue.

There were no grounds for any of these assumptions. They arose from your own sectarian prejudice (i.e. you assumed that a perceived unionist who criticised anything to do with the Gaelic language must be prejudiced against the language).

Even when you were advised that these assumptions were not true, you continued with them. So - in the face of denial, and still without any evidence - you persisted with your sectarian prejudice.

At no point did you even attempt to find out my views about the Gaelic language, or about the provision of translations generally. So you deliberately avoided gathering information that would have better informed your views of me: you preferred to stick with your sectarian prejudice.

You also engaged in dishonesty by attempting to characterise my opposition to the funding of permanent translators at a cost of 3.5m euro annually as opposition to translation of Gaelic per se (even though I had explicitly proposed that Gaelic translations be provided on demand).

And you used this dishonest misrepresentation as a means to explain your accusation that I was prejudiced.

Then you raised the translation of UK documents into Welsh, without providing the pertinent facts that would enable one to draw a comparison with the Gaelic translations in the EU, thus making it impossible to comment. Then, even though it was impossible to comment, you claimed that my inability to comment reeked of "hypocracy [sic], double standards, prejudice, ignorance".

The above is a sorry summary of your participation in the thread, made worse by your deliberate refusal actually to engage in the issue itself. You still have not engaged with the point that the 3.5m euro is a waste and that the same objective could be achieved much more cheaply by providing translations on demand.

You say one thing and later on you deny that you said it and all I have to do is scroll up to see it.

I have never said one thing and then denied that I said it. Stop lying. You've been asked before not to lie, yet you continue to do so. If it were true that I had denied saying something that I had previously said, you would be able to demonstrate it: you cannot do so.

This is another piece of dishonesty to add to the list.

maca

WIllow, i'd be interested in your answer re:Welsh (or Socts for that matter).

I've already explained (twice, I think), that I can't give an answer without being apprised of the pertinent facts.

Truth is you/we know as much facts about that as Irish so there's nothing stopping you commenting on it.

That is not the truth. I know more about Gaelic translations in the EU, because this blog tells us that it will cost 3.5m euro annually. I don't know how much it costs to translate UK documents into Welsh.

Baluba

Those who keep repeating that there is 'zero demand' for this unanimous move by the EU have forgotten that if it was asked for in the first place, there's demand uimhir a haon (#1), and did you all miss the thousands of people marching and sending in petitions (all political parties in the South and the two nationalist parties in the North included) endorsing it through the 'Stádas' campaign?

All that proves is that there is demand for the translation service to be provided (i.e. for the political gesture to be made). It does not prove that anyone will actually use it.

There is demand and if I may make a wild, sweeping, make up my own statistics, piece of conjecture as many others are wont to do on this site, I'd say that the vast majority of people in the 26 think it is a good idea and 99.999% of nationalists in the 6 do too.

People thinking "it is a good idea" is not the same as demand for reading EU documents in Gaelic.

The demand is there.

many people in the 26 countries assert their right to court hearings (civil or criminal)in Irish. Most EU legislation becomes national legislation, so having the translations is a benefit to the state.


Furthermore, it is of benefit that native or fluent speakers of Irish can use that fact as part of qualifying for any job in the EU. The minimum requirements for even entry level jobs is fluency in two official languages, and three for any real job.


Translating documents is only part of the story.


In the Gaeltacht areas in particular, which are dominated by fishing, agriculture and tourism, EU influence is pervasive. Having access to the primary legislation affecting their lives in the language they are most comfortable with will definitely benefit people there.


BTW, all EU treaties since 1973 were already available in Irish.

I have a copy of the constitutional treaty in Irish on my desk.

Willow
"I've already explained (twice, I think), that I can't give an answer without being apprised of the pertinent facts."

You also don't know the "facts" about Irish, because you claimed there was no demand and were proved wrong. Yet you still offer an opinion on Irish.

"I don't know how much it costs to translate UK documents into Welsh."

I just told you. It'll cost much the same as any other language.

maca

You also don't know the "facts" about Irish, because you claimed there was no demand and were proved wrong.

Er, when was I "proved wrong"?? No-one has offered any evidence of a level of demand for Gaelic translations of EU documents that merits the spending of 3.5m euro. Personally, I don't believe the numbers of people wishing to read such documents is barely likely to reach double figures.

I just told you. It'll cost much the same as any other language.

It costs 3.5m euro a year? How do you know. Personally, I don't believe that. If it does then, certainly, that is also a disgrace.

Willowfield

".. if you suspect someone of something, ask them to clarify; but refrain from unfounded assumptions."

I suspect you of being unwilling, or unable to engage in any kind of interesting debate, the only point you ever really make, in so many words, is "stop lying". It just gets boring after a while.

No need to clarify, btw.

Biffo

You have yet to make any kind of valuable contribution to the debate, save for ad hominem comments. Making sectarian assumptions, telling lies, and insulting people are sorry excuses for engagement.

the only point you ever really make, in so many words, is "stop lying"

Another lie. If you read my posts, you will see that the point I have been making is that the annual 3.5m euro is a waste and that the same objective could be met by translating on demand.

You, on the other hand, have made no point. You've just engaged in unfounded personal abuse based on sectarian assumptions. But if you ever decide actually to discuss the issue at hand, you will find me more than receptive. Until then, goodbye.

Willow
"Er, when was I "proved wrong"??"

You claimed, as fact, that there was zero demand. It was shown above that there is demand. Whether it is 1 person, 1 hundred or 1 thousand is irrelevnt, you were wrong.

"It costs 3.5m euro a year? How do you know."

It is safe to assume Welsh will cost approx the same as any other language. So it's probably at least €3.5 million for the 'slimmed down' version.

"Personally, I don't believe that."

Why? What's hard to believe about it? Why would it be cheaper than any other language?

"If it does then, certainly, that is also a disgrace"

Finally! So you think spending such money on Welsh is also a waste of money. You could have said that earlier to save time arguing.

"you will see that the point I have been making is that the annual 3.5m euro is a waste and that the same objective could be met by translating on demand."

How much of that is just for translating documents? And how much is for interpretors for those who might speak Irish there? (4 of the 16 MEP's are Irish speakers)
Is it just the translation of documents you have the issue with or do you think everyone should be forced to speak English there?

maca

You claimed, as fact, that there was zero demand. It was shown above that there is demand. Whether it is 1 person, 1 hundred or 1 thousand is irrelevnt, you were wrong.

Whatever. I think you are capable of realising that "zero demand" is a figure of speech meaning "next-to-no-demand", in much the same way as you would say "nobody wears grey slip-ons anymore", when we know that some people do.

It is safe to assume Welsh will cost approx the same as any other language.

How's that?

Why? What's hard to believe about it? Why would it be cheaper than any other language?

It's hard to believe because it is an excessive amount. It wouldn't be cheaper than "any other language", but I expect it's cheaper than the proposed EU arrangements.

Finally! So you think spending such money on Welsh is also a waste of money.

STOP LYING.

F*ck off, maca. I've had enough of these deliberately unfair and offensive remarks and assumptions.

You could have said that earlier to save time arguing.

F*ck off. If all you want to do is to deliberately misrepresent people, then I refuse to engage with you.

Apologies for allowing my anger to get the better of me above, but I am fed up with people deliberately misrepresenting me.

Willow
"It's hard to believe because it is an excessive amount. It wouldn't be cheaper than "any other language", but I expect it's cheaper than the proposed EU arrangements."

The other languages cost €46 million. I'm going with the slimmed down cost of €3.5m which seems quite reasonable compared to the other languages.

"STOP LYING.F*ck off, maca. I've had enough of these deliberately unfair and offensive remarks and assumptions."

Relax willow, i'm not trying to offend you. I was responding to your point that "If it does [cost €3.5m per year] then, certainly, that is also a disgrace", which to me meant that you think it's also a waste of money. Or what exactly did you mean by "a disgrace"?

maca

The other languages cost €46 million.

... in the EU. There is demand for the other languages. But 46m also seems excessive.

Relax willow, i'm not trying to offend you. I was responding to your point that "If it does [cost €3.5m per year] then, certainly, that is also a disgrace", which to me meant that you think it's also a waste of money. Or what exactly did you mean by "a disgrace"?

If it costs 3.5m, then it would be a disgrace. I am speaking conditionally: stop altering the meaning of what I say.

And I do not think, and have never said, that spending money on Welsh, or Irish Gaelic, or any other language is a disgrace: my comments have related solely to this particular situation under discussion.

I am fed up with the sectarian-inspired abuse and misrepresentation from Biffo and Olibher Chromwaill, and when you seemed to be joining in, I lost my cool. I apologise again.

Posted by: maca at June 17

Willow
"If it costs 3.5m, then it would be a disgrace. I am speaking conditionally: stop altering the meaning of what I say."

I am not trying to alter what you say. Welsh WOULD cost as much as €3.5m (it's a fair assumption) and I was just trying to see where you stood on that issue.

"my comments have related solely to this particular situation under discussion."

I know, that's exactly what I am addressing. You think it's a waste spending this money on Irish in the EU and I just want to see if that also applies to Welsh?
It's fair to assume they cost about the same. Welsh demand is probably a bit more but in both cases the demand is still quite low.

No need for apologies Willow. I think this strand of the discussion has run full course anyway.

I am not trying to alter what you say. Welsh WOULD cost as much as €3.5m (it's a fair assumption) and I was just trying to see where you stood on that issue.

How is it a fair assumption? Allowing for a gross salary of 50 euro, 3.5m represents 70 people! There's no way 70 people are employed translating government documents into Welsh!

Willow
You might have to redo your maths. Irish will require 20-30 people, does that mean their gross salary is 117K-175K? Much of this €3.5m must go elsewhere.

Regarding the actual number of people required ... when the new states joined the EU and added these new official languages I read that each new language required 110 translators & 40 interpreters ...

To answer your question I am just assuming that Welsh would have similar requirements to Irish, similar number of translators etc. I don't see why Welsh would require/cost even less.

3.5m represents 70 people!

Don't know whether this makes it better or worse - but the figure I heard is 30 people

I'd find it hard to believe there weren't 30 people involved in translation documents into Welsh

Willowfield

"Another lie...".

Once again, boring and repetitive, and further evidence that you are unwilling, or unable, to engage in any kind of interesting debate.

There is a touch of Mr Vibrating about your style, normally I'd find that engaging. But in your case the absence of intelligence and wit makes it tedious.

When you lie, don't complain when it's pointed out.

You have contributed nothing of value to this thread. You have not expressed an opinion. You have not engaged with an argument. All you have done is make assumptions based on sectarian prejudice, tell lies and engage in personal abuse.

You STILL haven't even attempted to respond to my alternative proposal for enabling Gaelic speakers to read EU documents.

The debate is there for you to join if you wish. If not, don't sully the thread with your abuse and dishonesty.

well said,biffo

Now if the UK left the EU, then this argument would become irrelevant.

It is just another example of wasting money in the EU, which will in the end collapse due to its own bureaucracy and self importance not to mention having discredited leaders like Chirac supporting it.

I don't care which languages they use in the EU I just want out of it.

What about spending the money on:-
1 Teaching the the republic to speak English- anywhere outside Dublin 4 is an incoherent babble. I have just returned from Limerick where the language barrier was great than in the week previous in France.

2 Investing in speech therapy/training to prevent Barbie de Brun from sounding like the man who offers me a "saler cote for the drive sor"

(Try to match the levels of lasnguage with the Armani)

if Barnshee speaks as badly as he writes, there's no wonder that there's a language barrier between himself between the good people of Limerick.

Olibhear

Can speak
English (native )
French & German (Degree 2.1)
Spanish (not bad -no formal quals)
Can order food and drink successfully in Italian

However I had considerable difficulty in deconstructing the responses in Stab City, they however had no problem understanding my (modest) requests

Typing however not so good !!

What part of my post is unclear -perhaps I can elucidate?

Willowfield wrote
You [Biffo] STILL haven't even attempted to respond to my alternative proposal for enabling Gaelic speakers to read EU documents.


The proposal was for on demand translation.

However, if I need a document (legislation) tomorrow and ask for it today, which is likely to happen in, say a court case:


If it has to be translated on demand, first of all a translator has to be found. Good translators in any language are hard to find, and therefore busy. It will take 2-3 weeks to find the translator, several days to get the legislation translated, and several weeks more to have it approved.
That effectively denies me the translation.

Also, if the EU has a translation staff, they will build up over time a vocabulary to deal with the recurring elements (of which there are many in legislation), and the overall qulaity of documents will be better. In the context of Irish language legislation being prevailing in the 26 counties, this is important - conflicting translations of similar passages would cause an expensive field day for the lawyers....

I think Willowfields suggestion would be more costly in the long term.

BTW, there are 50 people employed by the Welsh Office Translation Unit

http://www.wales.gov.uk/organipo/content/pgfa/proc-c19-e.htm

And they have to contract out work...