Good God is there any end to their incompetence,maybe its time to turn policing in south over to the Civil Defence and Security guards who seem to be doing their jobs for them anyway,and some people are actually advocating arming these imbiciles

Not just the incompetence Martin - the inhumanity of continuing with the deportation of the parents and his 4 year old brother is hard to understand.

What do you think the chances of mcDOWELL doing the decent thing and resigning over Mc Brearty fiasco are , i believe he refused to meet with them about a week ago to discuss costs ,but they werent alone he also didnt have time to meet with the prison officers union whom he is also having problems with ,MUST HAVE FELT THE TIME BETTER SPENT SLABBERING ABOUT REPUBLICANS

Man, the parents must be beside themselves. I hope the gardai involved can sleep okay.

If going into primary schools to round up non nationals ,and splitting young children from their parents doesnt smell of Fascism i dont know what does

An absolute discrace.
A power mad minister, whose only interest is himself.

Put yourself in the shoes of the parents.
How must they be feeling
totally inhumane.

The child is heading 'home' tomorrow, so I just read.
Shocking affair. This whole deportation thing needs to be closely looked at.

What kind of parents allow a 7 year old boy leave their care? Thankfully he has now been located and will join his family in their own country tomorrow.

Its shameful how people use a child to try and draw attention away from people who are not entitled to be in this country.

"What kind of parents allow a 7 year old boy leave their care?"

Normal parents, he was with relatives.

What kind of parents allow a 7 year old boy leave their care?

the vast majority of parents ... did you never attend school or go to a schoolfriend' house for an evening or with another family for a trip to the zoo or go play with cousins ?

"Its shameful how people use a child to try and draw attention away from people who are not entitled to be in this country."

The white hoods are out tonight !!

Update from Irish News website breaking News :

Child to stay with aunt before repatriation
02/06/2005
22:44:36

A seven-year-old boy left behind in Ireland after his parents and four-year-old brother were deported to Romania is to remain in the care of his aunt overnight.

Gardaí confirmed officers from the Garda National Bureau of Immigration were preparing arrangements to repatriate him to Romania to be reunited with his family.

The family, who are Roma gypsies, were among a group of more than 50 who were arrested and flown from Dublin Airport to Romania last night.

A garda spokeswoman confirmed 37 men, 10 women and eight children had been flown out of Dublin yesterday and that a child had been left in Tralee, Co Kerry, while his family were deported.

quwsdtion for Keith - did you never spend time with an Aunt ?

Davros,
have a look at qui custodiet site ,left something there for u

When the child is flown out to
Romania will he be left stranded ,on his own there if the Gardai chickeene havent had the bright idea of contacting his parents,do his parents have any way of knowing what is happening with their child tonight or is the attitude--who cares as long as their all off our sacred ground

The PSNI are worse.

and what relevence does that comment have garret?

This is very very sad!
I know its not a very profound contribution

The parents ought not to have entered the Irish Republic illegally; then, this problem would not have arisen.

SF,
Ya can't blame people for trying to create a better life for their young ones.
Would you be happy to see the hundreds (or is it thousands) of illegal Irish in the US shipped home to Ireland without their kids?

This is the inevitable result in some isolated cases of an immigration system that includes no-notice deportations. Since pretty much every Western democracy includes such measures (including those with the best human rights records), I'm unsure as to where the gnashing of teeth comes from. Given that almost all of those condemning these deportations don't have much of an alternative and don't advocate an open-doors policy, it all seems like crocodile tears from where I'm standing.

That said, Dublin's 98fm radio station had a Pravda moment earlier today. It reported (in a serious tone) that the young fella was being "repatriated to Romania to be reunited with his family".

Davros I am just saying that this is a one off. Whereas the human rights abuses of the PSNI are worse. Lets look at the big picture here.

At least you admit whataboutery garret. If everybody did it Slugger would soon collapse.

Garret,
the PSNI MAYBE WORSE,but ive met people who have been ''interviewed '' in store st and harcourt st garda stations who would say they are neck and neck, before the last general election didnt they interview martin Ferris in Tralee about him allegedly harrassing local drug dealers -this of course wasnt politically motivated- interview consisted of threats,beating and trowing over tables apart from interfering with the democratic process--has any one out there actually met a guard with any manners

Interesting to see all the Protestant bigots attacking this thread like wolves. As if they were in the least bit interested in the welfare of this child. The hypocrisy is absolutely unbelievieble.

Davros, however, remains true to form. No surprise there.

Napper

"Interesting to see all the Protestant bigots attacking this thread like wolves."

What protestant bigots are those then? Is it die hard, hardcore unionists/loyalists like Bill, Martin or Maca? :P

You don't visit this site very often, do you?

Ulster's sons will rise up and smite you Napper. God save the Queen etc.

Martin
"has any one out there actually met a guard with any manners"

Be fair now though. There's a lot of decent people in the Gardaí.

Garret is wrong; this is not a once off. The treatment of non-nationals in the republic is a disgrace, and the gardaí and Minister of Justice who promote it more so. It is a scandal that won't be faced. The press virtually ignores it, while TDs run off to the US to plead for special treatment of our illegals there. And I know whereof I speak! My family emigrated to the UK when I was a kid, and I owe my education and my early employment opportunities to the British state. And now I return to listen to unending bleating about anti-Irish racism from people who never experienced it but are quite prepared to treat incomers like dirt. Garret, grow up. Get some real experience of the world and then come back and talk. And if that's ball not man, hypocricy always has this effect on me.

I'm getting old and slow- was Napper paying me a compliment ?

I am surprised the family of this child did not mention that one of their children was missing.Surely the Guardai had a linguist with them on this operation.

don "The white hoods are out tonight !!". This is precisely ther kind of wooden headed, knee jerk reaction that prevents proper debate on the issue of illegal immigration.

Ireland is a sovreign country where we elect people to make laws to protect the common good. Last year the people overwhelmingly supported the government and it's stance on citizenship and immigration.

The roll of the police is to enforece the law of the land. In almost 30 posts on this thread, not one has come up with an alternative suggestion as to what the police should have done here.

"I am surprised the family of this child did not mention that one of their children was missing. Surely the Guardai had a linguist with them on this operation."

????
I don't get your point.
The Gardaí knew he was nissing when they went to get him in school.

I did not realise this maca.Thats is an awful situation for the family if this was the case.

Disgusting.

"Last year the people overwhelmingly supported the government and it's stance on citizenship and immigration."

Keith, last year the people voted for a loop hole in the law to be closed. The people did not vote for immigrants to be treated like shit, that is what has been done in this case.
An alternative? Too obvious to have to point out, the Gardaí should have found the child and reunited the family before even considering sending them anywhere.

Keith M,
You said it better than I could. I think those who make those sorts of accusations should apologise.

I would just like to add that they shouldn't have been deported without their child. Surely the Gardai (where does the fada go? I forget) could have waited until they could get the family together, including possibly holding the family somewhere, depending on whether their was a risk of them disappearing. The parents can be blamed for their own actions, the child cannot and shouldn't be separated as a result.

Are we sure they didn't have a linguist with them? If not, that's also a disgrace. Deporting a family is a serious step and should be carried out to the highest standards.

But the main thing to remember is that this is an issue about incompetence, lack of due process and children's rights to be with their parents. Upholding the law of the land against people who happen to be non-Irish is not racism.

But then I remember the extreme corruption that Gardai are capable of and the racism that is quite popular in Ireland (as elsewhere). But we should judge the law on it's own merits, and the implementation of it separately. The Government are responsible for both of course.

I think I'm getting all confused now - I support this law and think I could implement it properly but I don't know if I trust the Gardai on this!

These points were made in this Irish Independent story, Aunt took boy (7) away before family deported, today :

Peter Mullan of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation said schools had gone to huge lengths to combat racism and this type of scenario was "setting it back years.

"Children being children, it wouldn't take much for the schoolyard bully, on seeing this situation happen, to say 'You're next' to other non-national children," he said.

Allowing strangers to come to a school with the purpose of taking children away was frightening not only for non-national children but for national children as well, Mr Mullan said.

Grainnie Landers, co-ordinator of Trasnet, a support service for asylum seekers and refugees in Tralee, said garda immigration officials had arrived at the school "in full view" of other children, who were on their lunch break, and the deportation attempt was not discreet.

whoops - everything below that in italics was also supposed to be in italics as it is all a quote from the newspaper.

Where is the land of 'one hundred thousand welcomes'? The Irish have been welcome all over the world. If this is one of the effects of the 'Celtic Tiger' then it stinks.

Keith M likes to say the 'unthinkable' but it's getting a bit passe

This is a monumental f**k-up.

I think this is primarily a failure on a personal level, and then on an organisational level. One of those times when you wonder whether the people carrying out the deportation just turned off their brains.

I'd be a sympathetic to the difficult operations the Guards and other organs of the state have to engage in, often while being fired on by those who avail of the protection of the state on every occasion - yet in this csae there is simply not justification from what I can see. What were they thinking?

Keith M
The roll of the police is to enforece the law of the land. In almost 30 posts on this thread, not one has come up with an alternative suggestion as to what the police should have done here.

the very least they could have done was to have waited until they had all of the family together before deporting them.

A simple question:
would those who support the deportation of illegal immigrants from Ireland also support the immediate deportation of all Irish illegals in the USA, (who number many many thousands as far as I know)?

foreign correspondent,

Yes. I know some of them too, as I'm sure many here do.

I would also support such a move.An illegal is still an illegal no matter where they are from.

Ok, at least you are consistent. But I have never once heard anyone in Ireland criticizing the presence of Irish illegals in the States or anywhere else. The general attitude would be 'fair play to them', which I would agree with, but I would also extend that to people who come to Ireland.

They (and asylum seekers) entered the country illegally in the first place. It hardly sets a good precedent. There should be legal ways to apply for economic migration and asylum without required the applicant to demonstrate an ability to break the law by entering in the first place. For one thing it's not fair on the potential applicants who aren't prepared to break the law.

I meant to add, I believe there are already systems in place for Romanians to apply for work visas. In fact, the scandal in Britain recently was that it was too easy to get such a visa, not that it was too hard! They should try Britain next time if Ireland doesn't have such a system.

OC - I don't think anybody is arguing that illegals should never be deported - the issue here is the mechanism, who does it and whether or not it's appropriate to lift children from Schools and if they cannot be found to leave children in a different country from their parents.

foreign correspondent -

Yes

OC: there wouldn't be asylum seekers if we ('The West') stopped 'interefering' in other counties....

La Dolorosa,
How do you explain the US citizen who claimed asylum in Sweden (when dear Clinton was President) because of deaths threats allegedly received from US police.

Was "the West" interfering with itself in this instance?

And do you only care about the victims of US wars?

And anyway, these Romanians aren't seeking asylum, I only mentioned asylum seekers because I believe asylum seekers and economic migrants should be able to apply without being required to break the law.

there wouldn't be asylum seekers if we ('The West') stopped 'interefering' in other counties....

That's a strange claim La Dolorosa. Even if we accept that ALL asylum seekers arrive here because of the actions of 'The West', the damage has surely already been done?

La Dolorosa "there wouldn't be asylum seekers if we ('The West') stopped 'interefering' in other counties...."

Excellent bit of "analysis" there, let Romania and the rest of Eastern Europe go back to being ruled by communist dictatorships who build a wall around their little empires so that no one could ever escape. Would you be happy then?

La Dolorosa "The Irish have been welcome all over the world.". Ok, you are obviously a troll, I claim my €10 reward!.

Be nice Keith.

I was specifically thinking of African countries as an example - where 'Western' geo-political and economic policies have contributed to civil war and strife.

RE Iris being welcome across the world - as you know this has been true if we think that there are over 40mn people just in teh US alone that claim Irish conections/nationality - how did they get there? It would be nice to think that we could bear that in mind when it's the other way around. A familiar phrase comes to mind ' There for the grace of God go I...".....

My above comment was fpor the attention of keith m.

SSR - I couldn't agree with you more. Michael McDowell makes David Blunkett seem nearly half human.

RE Iris being welcome across the world - as you know this has been true if we think that there are over 40mn people just in teh US alone that claim Irish conections/nationality - how did they get there?

Do you think the American Indians excepted those Irish who were stealing their land from bad feelings
La Dolorosa ? And during the depression the USA deposrted as many Irish people as they could.

it is all to easy to criticise the gardai for their heavy-handed approach, but people have to remember that they were acting under orders. I am in no way defendeing them and, without getting into a totally separate debate here.

I believe they are just as corrupt as the psni or ruc, or any other police force in the world for that matter.

However, it is the motives and regulations promoted by McDowell, and the free state govt itself, which should be called into question.

Michael McDowell makes David Blunkett seem nearly half human.

Man ? Ball ?

davros, i agree with you on this issue, however, not your comment:
'Do you think the American Indians excepted those Irish who were stealing their land from bad feelings'
don't forget that many of these irish were deported to colonise america during the cromwellian rule of ireland, and so it is a totally different issue to the people who come to ireland of their own accord and the irish who go to america, or indeed went to america, of their own accord.

don't forget that many of these irish were deported to colonise america during the cromwellian rule of ireland,

How can I forget something that isn't true ?

What % of Irish Immigrants went to what is now USA during the decade or so of 17th century Cromwellian rule in Ireland ?
That was mere whataboutery.

it is not whataboutery. it happened, as did the deportation of the irish to barbados and europe. the point i was trying to make overall is that we should stay focussed on the issue in question - the deportation of the 7 year old boy's family.

it is not whataboutery

what else was it other than 'what about the' ?

it happened

NOT as you claimed - you used the word "many" implying that many Irish Americans are descended from those very few who were deported to America.
Only a tiny % of the Irish who ended up in America
were sent there against their will in Croemwells time.

as did the deportation of the irish to barbados and europe

Ireland was part of Europe in those days as well - and this has nothing to do with your claim that many of the Irish in America were sent there against their will during the period of Cromwellian Rule in Ireland.

SSR -

stay focussed on the issue in question - the deportation of the 7 year old boy's family.

the issue isn't the deportation of the family - the issue is that a 7 year old boy was forcibly separated from his family by the state.

You my not agree with deportations, but that is a different thing entirely.

soory if i misunderstood your earlier post davros but i (wrongly) assumed that when you said
'How can I forget something that isn't true ?'
that the 'whataboutery' implied that i was lying.
I also said that 'many' of these people were sent here against there, not 'the vast majority'.
Although my points regarding further deportations to other countries has nothing to do with my point regarding america, i mentioned it with regards to your comment that it wasn't true, maybe i again misinterpreted you.
(ps, I meant mainland Europe)

so now thats cleared up (at least i hope it is) can we now please get back to discussing the issue at hand here, please :-)

ringo
i agree with you totally, i was merely trying to change the direction in which the disscussion was beginning to turn (and I admit I had something to do with it)

SSR- I am very literal - In fact I nit-pick. So when something Jars, I comment. It can be both a strength and a weakness.

Whataboutery is different from lying. Quite frequently, but not always, whatabout uses something truthful.

Surprised nobody picked up that when I mentioned the Irish in America originally I myself was open to accusations of Whataboutery ! ;)

Cheers.

Ringo - Good point.

An awful lot of the tone and tenor of this thread stinks.

Sean Fear - "the parents of this child ought not to have entered the Irish Republic illegally: then, this problem would not have arisen."

Viz. Stephen Daedulus' employer at the school he's teaching at, the - sadly, Protestant - head Mr. Garret Deasy: "Mr.D. , why do you think Ireland has never had a Jewish problem?" Daedalus has no idea.The head replies to his own query, "Because we never let the blighters in!"

Don: I couldnt agree with you more. The white hoods are indeed out - as K.McNamara said in the G.B. context recently, there's more than a whiff of the gas chamber abou this - and, I would add, the strange crooked crosses.

As for Keith M's comment, "joining his parents in their own country." Like the Kurds the Roma don't, actually have a country they can call their own. Wherever they move - I'd thought the Czech, rather than the Irish, Republic had the worst record on this - they're treated foully.

Libero - I DO advocate an "open doors policy" - international capital has the run of the global house so why not international labour?

Finally, my old mucker O.C.'s comment - "Was the West interfering with itself in this instance?" During the 60's and 70's U.S.citizens claimed aslyum all over the world because they refused to fight in an illegal war in S.E. Asia. Sweden and, secondarily. Holland and Canada were the main destinations.

I pretty much agree with La Dolorosa's comments.
And I know it's not an original observation but it is really important to remember Ireland's history regarding emigration over the centuries.
It is sickeningly hypocritical to try and slam the door on immigrants now that Ireland is doing well, IMO.

foreign correspondent, nobody here could have been responsible for the immigration policies of other countries over the centuries, so you have no basis for calling them hypocrites. And as you noted yourself, there are many of us who were consistent and don't support the illegals in the US. How can you accuse a whole group of visitors to this site of being consistent and hypocritical at the same time?

La Dolorosa, it really is pathetic to accuse those you disagree with of wanting to use gas chambers, or to compare users to the KKK. It's about the most pathetic, ignorant and prejudiced thing I've seen on this site in some time.

la Dolorosa

international capital has the run of the global house so why not international labour?

Aside from being a daft comparision (do you really think that cash and human beings should be subject to the same regulations?) It is also factually incorrect.

And while you may disagree with the above comments there is little in them to compare with your insistence that asylum seekers originate with 'western meddling'. I think that you will find that persecution of groups of people predates western civilisation. And how you explain the trouble between Eritrea and Ethiopia as a product of western meddling will be interesting to hear, as will the crisis in Nepal.
I would think that the Dafur could do with a good deal more 'western meddling' than it is currently getting.

Spouting self-righteous rubbish and rallying to cries of white hood's, gas chambers and burning crosses is deplorable. You do a complete disservice to people that did have to face such horrors.

If you want to debate the merits of the current policy of the Republic regarding immigration lets do so - but lets get one thing straight, you don't occupy the high moral ground.

La Dolorosa, you said:
    I DO advocate an "open doors policy" - international capital has the run of the global house so why not international labour?

You've equated capital with labour - let's follow your thinking through to it's logical conclusion. Wanting to restrict the movement of capital could be described as socialism or protectionism (I know this is a bit simplistic guys, bear with me!), so surely wanting to restrict the movement of labour is something like socialism or protectionism too?

What the hell gives you the right to say it's Nazism or racism?

For what it's worth - and it doesn't seem as if you care about the facts, just the stereotypes in your head - I'm in favour of having more economic migrants generally. I just believe it should be done properly, with the migrant applying before they enter the country. I don't mind that there's no restrictions on EU citizens, and could be persuaded about some other states such as Romania.

And if some people want more protectionism and socialism, then good luck to them. I'll argue with them but not dare to use your language.

Are you big enough to apologize?

Sorry but the PSNI have treated the Irish minority in their areas with nothing but contempt, with no mention of this but a sudden outbreak of compassion from unionists here we see some very nice unionist double standards on this thread.

Garret -

who are the unionist posters you are referring to?

I hope Davros doesn't get insulted, but I cannot find one contributon by a Unionist on this thread. For some reason they don't tend to have much interest in the goings on here in the Republic.

Ringo with some, anything Irish or to do with the Republlic they will line up to scorn, while neglecting the faults in their own police and their own "great wee country". It is that hypocrisy that I am trying to get at here.

OC- I agree with you that it can not be called Nazism. I think advocates sometimes use words that are not appropriate for certain situations, I know they have good intentions, but it most certainly weakens their argument However, La Dolorosa does have a valid point in that the imigration policies are based on racism. After all, they (imigration policies)are classist and racist through out the world. North America, for example, opens its doors to “white European” immigrants ( a few Irish and British ones I might remind you), their borders with Canada are guarded by at most 3 border patrol men ( women for the pc crowd), The Mexican border on the other hand is a militarizad zone. This, despite the fact that the majority of ilegal imigrants in the US are Canadians that go about their business in America’s Pacific Northwest without a bother.

In my country, we ( well not the natives) welcomed imigration from Europe for centuries, when my ancestros came from Atrim, they were given resident status as soon as they set foot in Buenos Aires; eventhough Mapuche Indians were second class citizens in their own country. In Italy, Argentinians with Italian surnames are given citizenship and children who were born in Italy and have lived there all their lives are not, unless both of their parents are Italian.

In Argentina, we discriminate against Imigrants from Peru, but we welcome European imigrants. It is disgraceful, but it is the history of immigration through out the world.

It is racist and classist, it always has been.

foreign correspondent

"A simple question:
would those who support the deportation of illegal immigrants from Ireland also support the immediate deportation of all Irish illegals in the USA, (who number many many thousands as far as I know)?"

The fact is the Irish government recently sent a representative to the US to put pressure on authorities there to grant official status to the thousands of illegal Irish economic migrants still residing there. As far as I can remember Ted Kennedy is involved in this initiative.

Bearing this in mind it is clear that this is a race issue. The Irish government are in effect admitting that they are motivated to act on the grounds of ethnicity. They are saying that there is nothing wrong with an Irish person entering a country illegally.

But they wont tolerate Nigerians or Roma doing the same thing in Ireland.

It's racist to apply rules to other people based on their ethnicity that you wouldn't adhere to yourself.

Garret -

In my experience on this site it is republicans who are the normally the first to have go at the Gardai and the Dept of Justice in the Republic.

Unionists by enlarge tend to see more common ground between the PSNI and the Guards than republicans and the Guards. Republicans tend to see common ground between the Guards and the PSNI - try taking a look at the Northern Robbery threads. I don't know of any campaigns to free Garda killers by Unionist parties.

Do you still see flag-waving Unionists on this thread? Who are they?

Biffo

The fact is the Irish government recently sent a representative to the US to put pressure on authorities there to grant official status to the thousands of illegal Irish economic migrants still residing there

So the Irish government wants illegals in the states to be regularised. Which fundamentally contradicts your argument, that...

They are saying that there is nothing wrong with an Irish person entering a country illegally.

where are they saying this?

But they wont tolerate Nigerians or Roma doing the same thing in Ireland.

Let me know when you find any record of the Irish government objecting to the deportation of an Irish citzen from the US due to their illegal status.

Bearing this in mind it is clear that this is a race issue

how? Just because you want it to be doesn't make it so. Deal with this issue on its own - i.e. the disgraceful seperation of a child from his family by the state.

Mario -

do you think that the native people in Argentina should have adopted an open door policy on immigration when the Spanish arrived? Same for native americans in north america - were they being racist and classist in trying to prevent the immigration of Europeans?

Too many people are content to resort to simplistic jibes of racism - which undoubtedly is a problem in Ireland - rather than address the issue, which is the seperation of the child from his family by the state. In my opinion the State as an institution is actually less racist than the general population here. What has happened here is a flagrant abuse of a childs welfare.

Mario -

"do you think that the native people in Argentina should have adopted an open door policy on immigration when the Spanish arrived?"

The had no chance to adopt anything because they were slaughtered, killed, deported and sold into slavery for the benefits of the conquistadores. What is your point Ringo?

"Same for native americans in north america - were they being racist and classist in trying to prevent the immigration of Europeans?"

The natives in North America werent against immigration, they welcomed the Europeans (HELLO), they only began resisting when they started being slaughtered by the thousands, millions. Entire nations were wiped out and many were sold into slavery. Again what is your point? Are you suggesting that non European immigrants are coming to slaughter the Irish?

FOr a history of the genocide in the Americas you might want to read:

Bury My Heart a Wounded Knee by Dee Brown
Las Cronicas de Indias
Bartolome de las Casas
Indian Givers
and stop watching Kevin Costner's version of the genocidal policies suffered by the natives.

You wouldnt be comparing anti imigration supporters to native american fighters who were trying to stop the extermination of their race are you?

The natives in North America werent against immigration, they welcomed the Europeans (HELLO), they only began resisting when they started being slaughtered by the thousands, millions

This isn't accurate Mario. The first waves of immigrants to the Carolinas clashed with the native Americans.

While I'm not going to tell you what happened in Argentina, I think you are being disingenous to suggest that the Spanish would have been welcomed if they had come in peace.

At no point ever in history did one group unequivocally welcome the permenent settlement of a different grouping in their territory - certainly not without dictating the terms of the integration.

You wouldnt be comparing anti imigration supporters to native american fighters who were trying to stop the extermination of their race are you?

Nicely put. Anti-immigration supporters in Ireland have little to fear in terms of their lives or personal harm - but on lesser levels the concern they feel in the face of new arrivals is similar - be it dilution of culture, threat to livelihood, or competition for resources. Whether that concern is based on reality is a completely different issue.

Are you going to tell me that these things apply to one group of people but not another? Isn't that a sort of warped, inverse-rascism you're playing with?

Bury My Heart a Wounded Knee by Dee Brown - interesting read, recommended IMO.

"This isn't accurate Mario"

Yes it is.

Plenty of documentation exists of Natives in NA welcoming Europeans.

" think you are being disingenous to suggest that the Spanish would have been welcomed if they had come in peace. "

No I am not. Unfortunately, that is one we will never know, because they certainly did not come in peace.

"Crtainly not without dictating the terms of the integration."

I agree with you here. I am not suggesting that Ireland not have policies in place. I will differ with Europe and my own country in terms of how liberal these policies should be.

My original post was also critical of those who use harsher terms like Nazism without any real basis, but I did agree that there was an argument to be made that immigration policies THROUGH OUT THE WORLD are somewhat racist and classist.

Not just Europe Ringo, but throughout the world.
Colombians discriminate and do mass deportations of Venezuelans, Mexicans violate Guatemalan imigrant rights all the time and the news about a boy being left behind would not have even made the news there, In Nigeria they deport other Africans without trials, same in SOuth Africa, IN Japan Peruvians of Japenese descent faced mass deportations too. But a closer look can show you that not all imigrants are treated equally.

I hope thats clear.

There is a lack of focus to many complaints on this thread. It may be that there are those who believe a sovereign state has no right to control access to its territory, but those who hold this view should say so. There may also be legitimate arguments over immigration and whether particular policies are are too restrictive or not restrictive enough, but it follows as night follows day that if any immigration restrictions at all are to be imposed then the state will require the power to deport. I note also in this thread that it is suggested that the Justice Minister resign over police abuse which occurred while he was an opposition backbencher.

It's almost as if some of our posters had an axe to grind.

Plenty of documentation exists of Natives in NA welcoming Europeans.

And plenty of documentation exists detailing the friction between the very earliest settlers and the native people.

I will differ with Europe and my own country in terms of how liberal these policies should be.

Fair enough

I did agree that there was an argument to be made that immigration policies THROUGH OUT THE WORLD are somewhat racist and classist.

Labelling immigration poicies the world over as inherently racist or classist is to broaden the terms to such a degree as to make them worthless.

Racists may call for tighter immigration controls all over the world, but it doesn't follow that immigration policy is based on racism or classism.

Ringo,

Judging by the questions you asked me earlier you seem to have trouble understanding what I was saying?

I'm pointing out that the Irish government is deporting, en masse, illegal foreign immigrants from Ireland. At the same time they are asking a foreign government to grant residence to illegal Irish immigrants in that foreign country.

The Irish government is punishing Nigerians and Roma for a particular crime, while at the same time requesting the Americans to pardon Irish people for committing the same crime.

They are asking the Americans to "do as we say, not as we do".

They are advocating discrimination on the grounds of national origin.

They are advocating that Irish people should be treated differently from Nigerians or Roma, though they are all illegal immigrants.

You can deny it, but sorry, it's racist.

OC
"They (and asylum seekers) entered the country illegally in the first place. It hardly sets a good precedent."

You clearly dont have a grasp of what asylum seekers actually are, they ARE ENTIRELY different from economic migrants.
How can they fill in a form, go for an interview in their best suit, when they are being chased FROM, their country.
I think I shall read your posts in a different light from now on.

Sol

Same thing happens in Mexico. Vicente Fox asks the US for amnesty, every other year, yet Central American immigrants are treated worse than garbage and are deported without hearings.

Classist? yes Racist? maybe.

Ringo, I take great pains in not making uninformed generelazations about immigration. From what I have seen in my own Latin America and in my travels in Europe and the Us. There is a pattern of classism and racism which I detailed in an earlier post.

One example always comes to mind. When our country was "on top of the world" as the new Latin American tiger, we had a good number of immigrants from Bolivia and Peru, and like you said people felt threatened. I of course do not see imigrants as threats but as future citizens and as far as culture, I think all cultures are a result of immigration, even yours Ringo. Anyway, when our bubble burst and our country became just another broke, deeply in debt, terribly dependent Latin American country, immigration became an asset and the harsh immigration policies were soon more liberal and there was solidarity between Argentino workers and immigrants.

Now that we are climbing back, is back to kicking the indians out and rest of nonsense. I think that fear drives racism or bigotry or whatever u want to call it. Politicians knows that its popular to be anti immigrant, because it is too complex to ask people to ask the right questions about immigration so they all exploit that fear in the population. So if that fear is fueled by racism or prejudice and if that fear has "popular' support than I think u will find that most of the world has racist and classist immigration policies. The Irish certainly felt this when they first arrived in North America and were quiclkly labeled as the new underclass.

The remarks about culture are correct. I have a major difficulty with Nigerians in particular. As an employer, I have had no end of sackings, Industrial Tribunals, probationary failures etc . This imposes massive cash and labour costs on the organisation which are just too much to bear. I guess this is because of the culture of corruption in Nigeria. i know we're probably responsible for most of that, but that doesn't mean that we have to absorb it into our own countries as a penance. Now when I see an application form from a Nigerian, I instantly think about the veracity of the qualifications claimed, experience , and address . That's a real cancer and one I'm not proud to admit to.

ringo

I am a relative newcomer to this site but I am a unionist so perhaps Garrets comments and Nappers are aimed at me for this post:-
" This is very very sad!
I know its not a very profound contribution"

I think that arguement would be that, as a unionist, I am inherently evil and devoid of human compassion, therefore incapable of feeling sadness over the misfortune of any other living soul (unless they are established as also being unionist perhaps) and therefore expressing any such sadness must be hypocracy and I may well be rubbling my hands with glee at the incident, my joy only constrained because more families and more children were not involved.

Sol said: OC
"They (and asylum seekers) entered the country illegally in the first place. It hardly sets a good precedent."

You clearly dont have a grasp of what asylum seekers actually are, they ARE ENTIRELY different from economic migrants.

Rubbish. Of course I know what asylum seekers actually are. But asylum seekers from, say Darfur, would hardly take a flight direct from Sudan to Heathrow. They probably slip over the border into a neighbouring African country and then sneak into the EU, perhaps in the cargo hold of a ship.

Regardless of the exact mechanism, they all have plenty of opportunity to present themselves at a British or Irish Embassy or something and apply for asylum. Before they enter Britain or Ireland by any route, they should be declaring their intention to apply for asylum and be totally honest about it.

I hope you can acknowledge that I do understand what an asylum seeker is.

Thanks,
OC

"I hope you can acknowledge that I do understand what an asylum seeker is."

I stand by my previous statements, A) you dont know the process, and B) Your motives for having this "opinion" are shady, as you coupled economic migrants, and asylum seekers together, the two are not connected.

Sol said to me:
A) you dont know the process

I'd like to hear more. I was simply suggesting that it should be possible to apply for asylum before entering the UK or Ireland or whatever. Let's stick with the UK for simplicity. And if you can apply from outside, then why would anybody need to apply after from inside, i.e. after entering illegally? As I understand it, the various international treaties only require states to handle applications from those inside that state's territories. I would like to broaden that, so an asylum seeker isn't required to break the law, in order to apply.

I'm pretty sure I've got the current law right, but would be grateful for any correction.

B) Your motives for having this "opinion" are shady

I'm really looking forward to hearing you back this up - you should clarify what you mean by shady. If anything, I'm the only one who wants to make it easier to apply for asylum.

Anyway, I've often been the first in discussions like this to point out that economic migrants and asylum seekers are different. But they do share one thing in common, and that is they often break the law (often they don't have much choice, I know) to enter their destination country. I want to resolve that.

Definition of shady, having ulterior motives, not being entirely truthful.

Sol, you can't convict me without telling me what I'm charged with!

In all seriousness, tell me what your suspicions are, and we can discuss them.

i didnt know this was a court?

So you admit you can't back up your allegation that I have ulterior motives?

Let me guess, you think I'm racist? I'd love you to show me a single thing I've said which wouldn't be consistent with me being the least racist person in the world.

By the way, I don't know why my name is coming out different in every post I make! I'll play closer attention to how it's remembering my name.

Rubbish, you only disected your link from asylum seekers and eco. migrants after I pointed it out to you.
It gets my goat up when people lump asylum seekers (who may or may not always have a choice of how they get to these shores) with criminals (law-breakers), because they failed to fill in a form, and the punishment for such a dastardly act, being dragged kicking and screaming (it happened) across a runway to board a plane.

I never called you a racist, I apologize for any hurt caused and I retract my kneejerk "shady" statement.
Sol

You obviously don't believe me, but there's no point the two of us arguing over whether or not I confuse asylum seekers with economic migrants. No one can claim that based on anything I have ever said on Slugger, and I don't know of any online lie detector test I could take!

Many asylum seekers are technically law breakers, and I made clear in my 10.17pm comment that I recognize that many refugees don't have much option but to do so with the system as it is now.

We need a system that makes it as easy as possible for genuine asylum seekers to get asylum, and (in my opinion) to do that we need to update the various international treaties on asylum.

We also need a separate debate on what immigration policy to have on economic migrants. For this debate to be a success everyone should recognize that many opponents of economic migration are genuinely not racist, but are only concerned about their own jobs. Such a view may be selfish, or even baseless, but selfishness isn't the same thing as racism. If the debate is a fair debate that doesn't make wild accusations then it may be possible for progress to be made, including dealing with the fears of many. For the record, I myself am not concerned about the levels of economic migration.

Thanks for retracting the "shady" comment.

Maca,

ok there are some decent people in the guards,but they from my own experience of meeting them are only recent recruits who were young and idealistic and planned to make ireland a safer and better place,they didnt expect to be confronted by the corruption in there that was the reality ,
I WOULD BY NO MEANS consider them to make up the majority of gardai ,just as there was a minority of Ruc men who joined from idealism of making a better future for all and werent sectarian biggots,both these forces were and are too rotten to fix by the addition of a few good eggs. due TO the divide in north I DIDnt know any ruc men ,and didnt want to because of what the uniform stood for to nationalists,however,from local gossip Iknow of RUC men who in their personal dealings and family lives ,would have made good friends in a non polarised society,but they too were a minority

Maca,
any idea where garda donal corcoran ROBO COP of MAYDAY riots is now ,great colour picture in front of the Irish examminer of MR Mac Brearty helping guards with their enquiry