Alex does seem to have lost it a bit over this one. The 'Leader' isn't the problem per se a corporate approach for a while would be useful during what will be a diffciult period of reflection for the UUP. A dirty rush for a new leader is unwise.

Also it was Cooper, Rogan et al who were approving some of the disasters not the likes of Kilclooney.

Some of his questions on the campaign and financing are more sensible and need to be answered if there is going to be a full and frank debate in the UUP. Although I remember when a policy sub-committee asked inconvenient questions about European allowances it was stamped on and I'll always remember a line from a HQ staff member about the party accounts presented to the UUC "You mean the 19th version of the accounts" so i don't hold out much hope on the finance end.

I think the corporate leadership till September is ok. Take the Summer to think it through. The Tories are taking till Christmas. Big questions take time to answer. The UUP are definitely looking at a long recovery period that will depend on redirection, as well as wheels coming off the DUP wagon as time goes on.

Some genuine (and i do mean that) advice to the UUP - they most definately should not base anything they do on the hope that the 'wheels will come off' the DUP.

That may or may not happen but somewhere where they have went disastrously wrong has been to sit back and wait for the DUP to fail. If they continue that then they will head to oblivion even quicker than they may well do anyway.

Question for Alex Kane...who made you a political commentator/advisor for the Ulster Unionist Party?

Who do you actually advise?

Do you not have a problem slagging the living shit out the Party that you profess to be a member of?

Would it be possible for you to actually come up with a proposal or plan for once rather than just slate everything that you happen to disagree with?

Ooooh! Get her!

carrington...lol my handbag is definitely raised...but i'll be interested to see what response i get!!

Perhaps, like an ever swelling number of Unionists, Alex Kane can give it but he can't take it? I understand Mexcian men have much the same attitudes.

methinks mr Benjamin isn't enjoying the sackcloth and ashes which he and his colleagues should be wearing as a gesture of their regret for the advice which they gave to Trimble and co?

alex

Alex Kane has been a lone voice in the wilderness warning about the impending doom facing the Ulster Unionists - they ignored him, with disastrous consequences.

Do you not think the shower of yes-men and cronies that passes for a party officer team (and I include Jim Rodgers in that category) should now be disposed of?

Are you still being breastfed by your mum, the fragrant Diana, Carrington?

Right on Benjamin.

Kane is a self righteous, self appointed know-it-all.

The UUP has massive problems to sort out but the 'Theresa May' policy of public self loathing is a proven vote loser.

Then again Alex Kane is a former member of the spectacularly unsuccessful Conservative Party in NI - so that may explain why he actually thinks his constant public criticism of the UUP is helpful!

It is not!

AK - on behalf of the hundreds of UUP voters who want to see things sorted out, either express your views inside the UUP in a constructive forum i.e. by putting forward your own ideas (wouldn't that be a novelty?!!) or clear off to the Tories, again!

The UUP needs discipline - so if you want to be of its future, then stop slagging off the Party and put your shoulder to the wheel!

dumpy

what a revolting thought!

Hermon at Westminster - Empey in Belfast - makes perfect sense!

I believe the wheels shall not come of the DUP wagon as they are now following the path of the UUP, and as such it should be an easier road for them. The UUP has ploughed a furrow that has transformed unionism into a respected culture – even if it was done in a unilateral manner. The DUP have two options: they can either

(a) Do a deal with Sinn Fein and enter a power-sharing government – remember the SDLP has expressly said they will not do it alone. This shall alienate the Paisleyites from the Robinites; or

(b) They shall continue with Direct Rule. If so they - the UK Unionists et al. - will break away as this is contrary to Carson theory and a more ‘greener’ [Fitzgerald] direct rule shall result for Blair is no longer a de facto president, he is chairman of the board and as such I believe joint authority is closer today than it has ever been before cf Gibraltar were 99.9999% rejected power-sharing with Spain and Westminster still ignored the referendum even though the Spanish voice is negligible in the colony.

thank you ronaldo...dumpy daphne, it has nothing to do with that i can assure you...but everything to do with someone who is a member of the UUP but who has this semi-parasitical existence that allows him to use his membership as a right to slag off the party and make money commentating on the TV and radio.

It drives me mad, not because i don't repect that people have different opinions but more that he chooses to have a go in such a public way and always in third person.

I believe that this approach, while undoubtedly making him popular amongst media circles lacks integrity at a Party level. There are forums within the Party to discuss such issues, but Alex Kane can make more capital and advance himself more by doing it in newspaper columns and tv and radio stations. But hey i guess we all need to make a living somehow!

What it boils down to is this, either you are a political commentator with free reign to say wahtever you think or ur a member of a political party, free to dissent as much as you like internally but not washing your grubby linen in public...a strange concept for some in my party granted...

I find it very difficult to respect someone who constantly snipes but offers nothing in terms of ideas or solutions. I could sit back quite happily and say that's bollocks to most things. We all could. I still want an answer to my questions though from Alex. In a public forum please! Just to make a final point, compare stalford's column in the Newsletter against Kane's. Kane's typifies all that is wrong in our approach...so to take media advice from a man who is happy to publicly slate his party for a few bucks in the media quite frankly takes the bastarding biscuit i can assure you...rant almost finished lol It's nothing to do with what he's saying, just the manner and means in which he chooses to do so...

Where is Kane???

Does he need a fee to reply?!

Alex Kane should come onto this thread and defend himself!

"so to take media advice from a man who is happy to publicly slate his party for a few bucks in the media quite frankly takes the bastarding biscuit i can assure you"

LOL! Tremendous quote!

Alex

"Just to make a final point, compare stalford's column in the Newsletter against Kane's."

I hope you aren't implying that I stuck rigidly to a party line!!!

;-)

Alex B

breathe in breathe out now count to ten....

Alex Benjamin,
Is there not somthing a little ironic in complaining about Alex Kane publicly slating the party - obviously you do not mind publicly slating him.

Given that you want him to do his complaning in private then should you not do it there also? (and this is from a DUP supporter who absolutely loves this kind of stuff - just put a big square ring on the Holywood Rd and let us all see you rip eachother to pieces!)

And - one one final note - maybe the state of the UUP has something to do with the fact that employees seem to have nothing better to do than post stuff on here. Important, nae vital, as slugger is to the life of most political people, I'm sure there is some work that could be done in Cunningham House. Packing stuff into boxes or something before the removal men come or the Estate Agents measure up for sale.

This thread is deteriorating. Please remember the Ball not Man rule. Personal insults kill the discussion.

Carrington, he's probably dreadfully busy....... what with all those one-subject media interviews, articles and press releases to write....and oh the phonecalls....CNN, Fox News, Al Jazzeera......all wanting to talk to the world's greatest living authority on Ulster Unionism.....oh where would we be without him?...... Where, where??.........in the same ******* place....with less ear ache!

chris, lol u tow the party line...never (genuine congrats on council seat by the way)...fair deal, point taken...yer man, yes it is ironic, but i felt it was time to say it, as the amount of people that think it in private is very large i can assure you...so i just want you and others to know what it's like actually listening and reading his stuff when ur actually inside a political party trying to work and move forward...good dig about the estate agents and stuff are we looking at the new Jack Dee...lol i think u'll find i don't post that regularly and can assure you i have plenty of work to be getting on with...but i've had a bellyful of Kane. And would be interested to hear his answers...

I must admit for a second there I was regretting leaving the UUP. A ringside seat watching the internal spats over the next few months would have been excellent entertainment.

yerman 04.56pm

like the subliminal ulster-scots "... nae vital ..."

i'm sure the queens english is "... nay vital ..."

;-)

Alex,whilst i dont always agree with Mr Kane usually he is right.
Our party is in a total mess what is the point in denying that the people know that the dogs in the street know so why hide it?
What annoys me about this coporate plan is that many of the people who have misran cunningham house came up with the god awful decent people advert now expect to run the party its almost beyond belief, almost.
They caused the failure and should go with trimble bring in new people who at least listen to our supporters who will work for the party and who have new ideas.
Btw alex chill out to much red bull......!

Hi neil,

Ok i'll drop this now. but it has nothing to do whether he is right or wrong. That's down to opinion and i accept that he can call it right and can call a spade a spade. In fact, he and i would agree on a great number of issues. But the reason why the dogs in the street know, and that people know is precisely because of people like Alex.

You will understand that i can't comment on certain things internally like the corporate laedership idea etc but do you really think that the pa stuff today, or the column in the newsletter or spotlight last night etc actually help us Neil?. I don't.

Ps. i'm hooked on red bull, mainlining every day, betty ford can't do a thing for me geezer lol...hope ur well up there in North Antrim.

Doing well old boy.
Understand were your coming from to be honest i would need somethhing stronger than red bull to work at party headquarters at the moment.
You need to come upto my part of the world to rest and chill out no pollution in my part of the world no uup councilors either though...:)!

I think Alex Benjamin has better things to do, like polishing up his CV or apologising for a leading role in a catastrophic disaster, than swinging his handbag in a non-decent fashion at Kane.

By the way Mr Benjamin, did you realise when the party launched its manifesto with a red London Routemaster that Red Ken plans to have them all removed (bar tourist routes) by the end of the year? Not the best metaphor in advance of Black Friday, although more appropriate than you could know.

Alex. B

Actually, you do have a valid point---there is a serious conflict of interests between my membership of the UUP and my freelance journalism. You know as well as I do that I used various platforms between 1997 and about 2002 to wholly endorse what Trimble and the UUC were doing. I believed that the party was right to do what we did in that period and I worked (alongside your good self on a number of occasions) to promote the policy and the risks we needed to take.

But what has seriously pissed me off in the last couple of years in particular has been the refusal of key figures to listen to anyone who suggested that the party had problems. I had private talks with both Trimble and Cooper and was assured that everything was under control in terms of new approaches and strategies. But nothing ever happened.

I have been a member of the UUP since 1972 (apart from a brief flirtation with the Tories)and the success of the party is a matter of concern to me. I have been on the doorsteps at every election since 1996--even on those occasions when we had both YES and NO candidates on the same ticket. And I think its a little unfair to suggest that I never offered any alternatives.

What worries me at the moment is that the party could try and fudge the key problems which face it. Before it can get back on its feet, it has to understand why it fell over.

In the end though, perhaps you are right.

BTW: I have never described myself as an advisor to the party. Indeed, I have stated that fact on air on a number of occasions and even wrote to the Belfast Telegraph (and they published the letter) a few months ago saying: "I am not now, and never have been, an advisor to either David Trimble or the Ulster Unionist Party".

Best wishes,

Alex

A very gracious reply Alex K.

Most of the internal stuff on here is actually a matter for Friday/Saturday though I fear some of it won't be said so here is as good a place as anywhere.

For those employed at Cunningham House the issue appears to be that things happened despite their advice not because of it. With one or two exceptions (individuals whose status in the party we aren't sure of i.e personal advisors etc)they have performed well in trying circumstances (and often in the dark)

The collective leadership took the decisions and staff had no option but to implement them.

The issue now is that the officer team who ran this particular red bus into the wall should also tender their resignations on Friday. There is enough talent in the organisation to start with a blank sheet certainly in terms of getting the structure right before moving on to policies etc.

No one can seriously consider the leadership under the current team. If the Rogans, Coopers, Campbells, Allens et al care at all for Ulster Unionism then their greatest contribution will be to step down. Personal egos have cost us enough and trying to protect a great legacy is one thing trying to protect a legacy which is political suicide is quite another.

Ladies don't like corporate leadership

From BBC NI website

Lady Sylvia Hermon told the BBC she wanted to see her party moving in a "more liberal direction", putting clear water between itself and the DUP.

The North Down MP said she was not impressed by the idea that the party could be led by a three-strong team.

I am not on the Executive and normally wouldn't talk about internal party business on something like slugger.

But just in case any Party Officer is reading this then

DO THE DECENT THING AND OFFER YOUR RESIGNATION.

If you want to continue in your position then put yourself up for re-election.

Regarding a corporate (and report finding) leadership I am not totally against the idea so long as it is not appointed by the current leadership.

Regarding Alex Kane's questions I agree with every one and there should be a written answer available to every Council member in due course.

I also want for the first time in my life to see a Party Balance Sheet. I am a qualified accountant and I am tired of seeing an Income and Expenditure Account but being kept in the dark of how the cumulative losses were being financed.

However although all of this would be most helpful the real issue is Policy and what direction we go.
Further from the DUP or closer to it and what both of these things would mean in practice.

This would split us in at least 4 ways for a start.

So Alex, nothing in the way of positive, contructive or practical suggestions then? Just the usual self-serving vanity: "what has seriously pissed me off in the last couple of years in particular has been the refusal of key figures to listen to anyone who suggested that the party had problems. I had private talks with both Trimble and Cooper and was assured that everything was under control in terms of new approaches and strategies. But nothing ever happened". Get over yourself Kane, everyone else has.

But Jawn from East Belfawst, who has been absent from here almost as long as myself, welcome back. Every discussion we had in the past, you assured me that David's strategy was right, *and*, leading the party to success. It didn't because it wasn't.

Since that clearly hasn't penetrated, let me just tell you this one thing about our party: you will NEVER see an honest balance sheet. For if you did, a donation from one person would have to be revealed, and in short order, what was gained for that donation would lead to another person going to prison. The worst thing about people like you was the fool you allowed to entrance you. And yet here you still are, shamelessy braying about party officers whose wrecking of the party was made possible precisely by UUC members like you.

To go back to the first post, I don't think Alex "has lost it" at all.

The UUP needs a "blue rinse revolution".

It needs massive restructuring, the cleaning out of ALL the Trimblistas (Bye Bye Dr Steven King), a radical review of policy and purpose, and a leader who has the guts and will to find a NEW Ulster Unionism that can motivate the pro-union electorate. Cunningham House needs disinfected.

Tom the Trad

Firstly don't funk with my name.
Face to face I wouldn't tolerate it so don't do it here hiding behind a computer screen.
If you want to debate with me show me some respect otherwise post away and I won't respond. Perhaps you would prefer the latter.

Anyway I never once said anywhere that DT would lead the Party to success.
I have no doubt though that it would have led the Union to success which was all that mattered to me.

In terms of supporting a Leader or officers I only supported those that espoused the Policy that I supported.
To me it was always about Policy.

In retrospect there have been undoutedly some people in positions of leadership who although appeared to espouse my policy were incompetent.

In that Alex Kane has been proven right

Tom

And by the way showing me a Balance Sheet won't tell me anything about who gave what.

Therefore perhaps you should keep to what you know you are talking about before posting ?

"Lady Sylvia Hermon told the BBC she wanted to see her party moving in a "more liberal direction", putting clear water between itself and the DUP. "

reading the DUP manifesto on racism, its pretty "liberal" and it also states that it endorses the Social Model of disability, which is again pretty good stuff. I know that its easy to stick stuff in a manifesto but the DUP would not appear to me to be everly obsessed about being PC.

As a former UUP member who would disagree with much of Alex Kane's brand of unionism, I have to say that I fully agree with him. I remember in a number of recent campaigns Alex asking perfectly reasonable questions but being ingored. There was the usual siege mentality, either blindly agree with everything or be considered an enemy. I have to say that had Alex been listened to things would not be so bad now. Had Trimble gone after the Assembly elections things could have improved but all unionists could see was that Trimble would never take the message and so they had to hammer the party out of sight. I am afraid Alex B has to take responsibility as well and perhaps that is what is worrying him. The UUP's press statements during the campaign took a nasty and condascending tone which clearly was not going to win voters. Michael McGimpsey's towards the end particularly showed desparation and lies. I welcome the fact that he now seems to have converted to beleiving that they should have accepted the DUP's pact.

Beyond the yes-no divide, the UUP have made a number of glaring blunders from slogans to court cases and that calls into question the judgement of all the officers. Their arrogance was part of the problem and drove them further out of touch. I also think that people like Maginnis and cooper got so obsessed with their own grudges eg against Foster that they could not see what was happening. The clear mood within unionism was to back Foster but the UUP would not accept it and instead ran with ludicrous only Elliott can win posters. I could go on and on but Alex is right and should be put on the officers himself.

Alex Benjamin,

Alex Kane's pertinent questions may embarass you but so should the bs you fed to a gullible journalist about McGimpsey being ahead in South Belfast.

Remember Alex Kane is employed by Esmond Birnie and was his election agent. Following Esmond's humiliating defeat in Balmoral Alex K. is perhaps feeling a little disgruntled with his Party's incompetence.

Sorry, I couldn't help gloating a little, even though I know it's not nice.

By the way Shilliday, Black, Warke etc have been very quiet on how they got it so badly wrong eg all those predictions that Elliott was more popular than Foster

Yes, see my Mystic Meg roundup on another thread.

"Who gave the thumbs up to the 'Simply British', 'Decent People' and Red Bus disasters?"

Yeah, who was it, anyone know the
bounder's name? Was it a scarlet pimpernel whose loyalty lay with the DUP, and who intentionally wanted to turn the electorate off voting for the UUP? Wouldn't suprise me what those indecent type get up to.

The 'Decent people' quip is nearly as bad as this one to attract posh Garden center middle class Prods to come out and vote UUP

'If you really want to be a Posh just send your butler to vote UUP for you'

John EB
it's a bit late to be getting precious about things like your accounts now when for years people like Donaldson , Foster and myself were raising these issues - to the extent of even pointing out apparent discrepancies between the accounts given to the UUC and the Register of Political parties- and we were told to shut up because we were simply "criticising the leadership". Where were all the Yes men and lemmings then? Nodding in agreement at every fob off coming from the top table!

Your membership still doesn't know how much money came from the Republic of Ireland to fund the UUP's referendum campaign, for instance, and officers were refused information on the donations received because certain persons had accepted money from businesmen "on their honour" not to reveal the source.

One thing's for sure- you'll soon find out the state of your finances when the cutbacks start. In fact, if you're in the market for a new plush roadside office for your accountancy practice, I know a place that might soon be available at a knockdown price- and it's in your beloved East Belfast :0)

BTW is it only me or is the standards of vocabulary and grammar exhibited by UUP councillors and spin doctors on this thread so appalling that a pre-school pupil on overdose using her phone text would be more comprehensible? For all Alex Kane's faults, at least he appears capable of using the Queen's English.

Finally- if the UUP wants to ease short term financial difficulties , why not sell tickets for the upcoming Executive meeting? I know a lot of ex-UUP people who'd pay top dollar- though we mightn't be too quiet!

Alex, I have a good memory.

You havent.

Do you remember promising me back in 1998 in the aftermath of the Agreement that the UUP would definitely not go into government with sfira, without prior decommissioning?

In fact, you told me that if you did go in, you would buy me a brand new car.

We shook hands in the corridor outside the UKUP' s office, where I worked.

Has your whole party got a memory loss programme?

Have you not realised that your party is dead?

The very fact that sfira supporters are disappointed to see your blustering, red faced fool of a former leader resigning says it all.

PS, I would like a porsche, any colour, except green of course.

by the way, the comments are for alex Benjamin....

David Brewster for leader with his stunning leadership abilities nothing will be beyond us.

"BTW is it only me or is the standards of vocabulary and grammar exhibited by UUP councillors and spin doctors on this thread so appalling that a pre-school pupil on overdose using her phone text would be more comprehensible? For all Alex Kane's faults, at least he appears capable of using the Queen's English"

BTW

is the standards

:-)

First act of leadership-expel neil armstrong for being a cheeky young whippersnapper

second act of leadership-hand over all the evil sectarian trappings of Old Unionism-Union flags, pictures of Carson, relics from the Covenant period etc to Mrs D Brewster in trust for her husband

third act of leadership-invite leadership of PIRA to bring all weaponry to Cunningham House for face to face talks with present UUP party officer

fourth act of leadership- leave quietly after locking all of the above in the board room

fifth act of leadership- throw hand grenade into building in close proximity to Provo's semtex

sixth act of leadership- use monies from subsequent Nobel peace prize to pay Dennis Bergkamp's contract for another season

well, it's more sensible than your manifesto neil

is the standards

:-)

it's called "irony" Stephen

Expel neill armstrong for being a cheeky young whippersnapper i like that idea.
As for the old trappings of unionism i suspect you will find them in ebay before long in a last desperate attempt to raise funds for the uup.
What can i say about poor arsenal,you will only be a serious team when you get to a european cup final a bit like liverpool...

Ok, I've just finished what passes for work these days and am looking for some post lunch entertainment. Any spare UUP executive spots up for grabs? I'll even rejoin the party for the duration of the meeting if anyone can get me in. They've laid the wreaths is this the wake?

it's called "irony" Stephen

No, it's called being a culshie.

:-D

along with humour it's something that we are sadly missing at the monment

So that corporate leadership team:

Titular Head of the Trimvirate - Lady Botton-botton.

Under studies: Reg "Monty Burns" Empey & Micky McGimp

Party Chairman and PR guru: David Sibeburn

Officer Team: Same as before, becuase we don't want to upset anyone.

Now that's a winning team!

Alex B, where is my car?

Sorry, I couldn't help gloating a little, even though I know it's not nice.

Thats because you're not a nice person John. It follows quite neatly.

Is this an internal UUP discussion forum?

It's public guy's!

Liverpool Neill? !!!!
That would be the city whose two teams leaked ten goals to the mighty Gunners in the past week then. At least as a UUP member you'll have got used to getting stuffed by the time you reach Istanbul

pakman
What about bringing a picnic basket and some chilled bubbly and sitting outside Comingdown House in the sunshine waiting for the great announcement?

At three o'clock Sunny Jim Cooper skips lightheartedly down the steps, trips over Eamon Mallie and announces "Non habemus (fill in the Latin for leadership here please Mick)"

BTW Neill, don't knock being expelled-it didn't harm Jeffrey. I used to dream of being expelled from the Unionist party, but in the end I had to bloody resign, since the officers ignored my attempts to become an intolerable irritant

Being in the uup and supporting ballymena united I know all about misery still with the reds about to win the european cup things are looking up!

Unionists lost two seats to nationalists in the westminister elections because of the UUPs intranigence and hatered for the DUP. Fermanagh Unionist and long serving counciller Bertie Kerr let the cat out of the bag when he was heard saying "id rather see sinn fein in than the f***ing DUP" Is this what we should expect from unionists and orangemen ... i think not!! ... but move over Bertie and co your day has gone!!
Sinn Fein was probably as dissapointed as the UUP when they heard the fate of the Ulster Unionists!

Stevie Wonder

You must be f******* blind because :

1. I don't know where you read Bertie Kerr saying the above &

2. It was actually Jim Dixon who told the UUP he would rather see Sinn Fein win F&ST than the UUP! How helpful he and the DUP were?! They certainly got what they wanted.

I think youve somehow missed the point. I didnt say i read these disgraceful comments anywhere, but i did say that Bertie Kerr was heard saying them at the election count in Omagh. Im not 100% sure wat Jim Dixon has too do with the discussion, as he has nothing whatsoever to do with the DUP, but for your information the Democratic Unionist Party never fought the seat before .... and guess what, were now the leading unionist party in the constituancy!!! not bad after the first fight!