It's a bloody disgrace that sectarian politics is still allowed to interfere in sport, and I assume that any international sporting body which denies the six counties recognition as a legitimate separate British entity must be run by bigoted Irish Catholic Nationalists who don't recognise when it's time to let go of negative traits.
Politicians must cut the crap and get sectarianism out of sport, wherever it exists.

Does Kate Hoey have a problem with the island-wide (Ireland) rugby team or would she prefer a norn irn side?

Hoey is wrong to say

That is because the International Tennis Federation recognise Tennis Ireland, the governing body for the Republic of Ireland, as the organisation representing Northern Ireland, even though it is part of the United Kingdom.

Tennis Ireland is not the governing body for Tennis for the Republic. It is the governing body for Tennis for all of Ireland. She should stop trying to bring politics into sport.

Can't see any sectarianism in this at all.

I'm sitting in Cambridge and it seems from here that some sports are organised on the basis of England only (rugby union at club level), some England and Wales (league soccer), some England Scotland and Wales (tennis) some England Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland (international soccer) some all of Britain and Ireland (the Lions in Rugby Union) and one Britain Ireland and mainland Europe (Ryder Cup).

Kate Hoey seems to be the dogmatic one who insists on one particular way that sport is organised.

Bit of a non-story, really.

Although maybe the truth is the MOPE are 11 year old tennis players from North Down!

This is a case of local talent going undeveloped because of bureaucratic bull preventing access to proper support. It is unacceptable.

"dogmatic one who insists on one particular way that sport is organised."

Kate is not being dogmatic, she seems open to NI tennis clubs affiliating to either official body. The LTA, the SCNI, Tennis Ireland and DCAL are taking the dogmatic approach.

Henry

"She should stop trying to bring politics into sport."

Hmm and if it was someone from Northern ireland being forced to join a UK team or refused the opportunity to participate in an Irish team, would it be the same reaction?

A bit rich of Kate to rant about tennis when her party has fought tooth and nail to prevent Labour from organising in NI. Admittedly they'd only get 26 votes (2 more than the Tories) but it's the principle that counts.

"A bit rich of Kate to rant about tennis when her party has fought tooth and nail to prevent Labour from organising in NI."

But wasn't Kate Hoey one of the main movers in seeking to have Labour organise in NI? Am I mixing her up with someone else?

No Joe you are right, she is being entirely consistant.

Long and complicated History of the 26 counties trying to annex and control sporting activity across the 32 counties. That was why, after all, Ireland was banned from the Olympics for so many years.

Joe I stand corrected.

Joe I stand corrected.

Has the decline in British tennis accelerated to the point where one can talk in terms of an 11 year old child being prevented from representing his country?

This story is silly on so many levels it is difficult to know where to begin. Worse than silly, however, is Hoey's apparent suggestion (and let's be honest this is what is really being suggested) of separate "green" and "orange" tennis clubs.

so to avoid being silly we have to put up with just having "green" ones!

This is an issue of fairness and I would be reluctant to be dissmissive of the hopes and dreams on an 11 yr old. I wish him every sucess. What is his MP doing? (or does he have an abstentionist one?

That doesn't follow at all. The all-Ireland structure doesn't mean the clubs are green any more than it means rugby clubs are green. Splitting the affiliations of the clubs is an invitation to them to declare their sectarian allegiance. Clearly some are eager to do so.

I'm not sure what "hopes and dreams" you believe are being dismissed. Whatever they are, I doubt very much they belong to the 11 year old.

Like it or loath it, politics and sport (international sport anyway) are, in reality, inextricably linked.

That has a familiar ring ....

Jimmy Sands

I just can't take the dismissiveness on here seriously. If this had been a reverse position their would be morale outrage all over the place.

"Splitting the affiliations of the clubs is an invitation to them to declare their sectarian allegiance."

I await the FAI expelling Derry City Football Club from the League.

Seeing as tennis is usually an individual sport (with the exception of the Davis Cup), does it really matter which country a player wishes to be associated with? Could we have a separate NI body with tenuous links to the RoI and GB bodies? This could be funded from NI funds (i.e. the Assembly). Could the Assembly be responsible for a separate Lottery fund based solely on lottery sales in NI?

What is the big deal?!

The young man is not getting treated differently to anyone else, it is the same for everybody. Whats more, if the Tennis Ireland had a great program for developing young tennis players and offered and attractive package, would we be hearing about this? Probably not! So, it is really aobut the inadequacy of Tennis Ireland in developing young players.

Would the time be better spent making contact with Tennis Ireland and/or the relevant government authority in the South.

FD,

As a rule of thumb, when whataboutery breaks out I generally consider an argument concluded.

I thought Kate Hoey was a labour mp for a London constituency...someone should tell her that this is not a priority for the london labour voters she purports to represent.

[ed Moderator]

Levitas - MPs are supposed to represent all their constituents, not just the supporters of their party. And they have a wider national remit.

To: all those who think that this boy should only be able to play for Ireland, would you by the same token advocate all NI born footballers playing for the Northern Ireland football team, rather than defecting to the Republic's side?

Didn't think so.

If republicans want to represent Ireland, fine. I wouldn't and nor, obviously, does this poor child. People have rightly pointed out that if the situation was reversed and the child was an Irish national, there would be huge outcries from SF and others. In fact there already has been regards the commonwealth games where competitors, since the GFA, successfully argued for the right to represent Northern Ireland there, despite representing Ireland at the olympics.

But sure we all know parity of esteem and equality only work one way.

"defecting to the Republic's side"

There are quite a number of soccer players from the north playing for the Irish underage teams at present.

I doubt if any see themselves as defectors

They are simply representing their country

That's my point - this kid is being refused the opportunity to do the same. Equality? Parity of esteem? Balls.

" all those who think that this boy should only be able to play for Ireland"

I can't see that anyone has expressed that view.

Jimmy, you've dismissed the story as "silly on so many levels."

So not only have you dismissed his wish to represent his country, it's silly too? If I have misread your post, please explain what you meant.

Siege mentality gone awol

Boxers from the North always participated in the commonwealth games for n.i and for Ireland in the Olympics.

This was the practice long before the GFA

McCullough,Hugh Russell etc....60's,70's 80's

Depends on the sport,i suppose

Thanks Chris, you've just confirmed my suspicions that republicans take a completely hypocritical attitude to matters such as these.

If you want to get rid of the siege mentality, how about recognising the kid's right to represent Britain. How about promoting equality as an ideal in itself, which everyone can sign up to, rather than a weapon to win some 'war on unionism'?

Wouldn't equality be much more easily achieved if Unionists could see it worked for them too? If SF really are interested in equality, will they endorse the right of Unionists to select which country they represent (assuming they have the ability to do so)?

Perhaps the olympics was the wrong sport, apologies if I got my facts wrong. I'm honestly not sure of the details, but I distinctly remember reading an article in the Belfast Telegraph in the last year about the rights of Northern Ireland's citizens to represent Ireland in sports and then NI at the c/w games.

From a Parliamentary answer from DCMS

"In accordance with the Good Friday Agreement, under which the British and Irish Governments recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, the Sports Council for Northern Ireland seeks to ensure that the structures of sport in Northern Ireland provide an equal and equitable opportunity to all to participate in a sport of their choice, for a country of their choice."

Sounds like it.

"Thanks Chris, you've just confirmed my suspicions that republicans take a completely hypocritical attitude to matters such as these"

It has everything to do with unionism's inability to accept any all ireland platform.

"how about recognising the kid's right to represent Britain"

I do

"rather than a weapon to win some 'war on unionism'?"

Republicans are not and never were at war with Unionism.

"It has everything to do with unionism's inability to accept any all ireland platform."

It shouldn't be accepted at the expense of a UK-wide platform. Are there any areas where an NI citizen is similarly unable to represent Ireland? I don't see why all-Ireland platforms should be enforced unnecessarily on me though.

"how about recognising the kid's right to represent Britain"

"I do"

So we agree. Excellent.

"Republicans are not and never were at war with Unionism."

I find that a tad hard to swallow, but that would take us away off topic. My point was that SF have continually used Equality as a stick to beat unionists and/or the UK, when it helps them push their tricolour that little higher up the flag pole. Do you agree that they should take the equality argument to its logical conclusion and support the right of Northern Ireland's British citizens to represent a British team where one exists?

I'm off to bed, will try to respond to any comments in the morning.

"SF have continually used Equality as a stick to beat unionists"

If Unionists reject equality then they deserve to be beaten with the equality stick.

"Do you agree that they should take the equality argument to its logical conclusion and support the right of Northern Ireland's British citizens to represent a British team where one exists?"

Of course

Hmmm - I reckon Chris is deliberately being agreeable and reasonable to the point of provocation ;)

Oíche Mhaith!

"I reckon Chris is deliberately being agreeable and reasonable to the point of provocation ;)"

LOL, it's my new tactic ;)

Oíche Mhaith

beano,

You appear to have created a straw man. Were the child to be selected for the British Davis Cup team tomorrow, he would have every right to accept. No-one has suggested otherwise, nor does the story suggest any obstacle that might be placed in his way. I think you have misunderstood what Ms Hoey is suggesting. It is not about the right of individual players to their cultural identification, but the suggestion that individual clubs should choose their national governing body, which presumably they would do on a sectarian basis. Quite why such a proposal would emanate from someone who has at least pretensions to representing the progressive side of the political divide is entirely beyond me.

No one actually has any objections to this lad being seen as "British". It's an individual-based sport in which, in any event, nationalities are fluid at the best of times anyway. (Martina x2, Mary Pierce etc)

What seems more questionable is whether the tennis structure in place should be torn up because he wants his hand-out grants from London rather than Belfast. In truth I don't care as for me tennis died when MacEnroe retired.

What is more unsettling for this non-tennis fan is Kate Hoey's sneering comment about "nationalist politicians shouting from the rooftops about human rights and discrimination" which seems silly when the glorious cause she is promoting is the tennis circumstances of a pre-teen from North Down!

Makes me think that she hasn't taken too serious actual allegations of human rights abuses if she sees this non-story as a comparable situation.

Plus this thread should have been called Harry's Game from the outset.

Makes me think that she hasn't taken too serious actual allegations of human rights abuses if she sees this non-story as a comparable situation.

Couldn't the same be said of every utterance by a politician about any issue other than human rights abuses ? Your logic would mean that any politician raising any issue could be criticised for not focussing on something considered ( and who chooses what is deemed as being) more/most serious ?

Davros

"every utterance by a politician about any issue"

I think that counts as an example of the rarely sighted "non-specific whataboutery"...

...but if your point is that politicians should have a sense of perspective before weighing in with terms like "human rights", "identity" and "culture", then I agree.

My point is that Ms Hoey hasn't that perspective as shown by her comments and unthinking belittlement of concerns in those areas which might in reality have more importance than whether young Harry loses a tie-break in the under12s to someone fom Sandymount or Surrey.

It is good to get behind the real issues affecting the day-to-day lives of people in North Down

"Do you agree that they should take the equality argument to its logical conclusion and support the right of Northern Ireland's British citizens to represent a British team where one exists?"

"Of course"

Thanks Chris. Somehow I don't think they will however, though I hope I'm wrong - it would definitely be interesting, I think, to see the reaction to such a position from both republicans and loyalists on the ground. I'd imagine some on both sides would be uncomfortable with it.

Perhaps this is whataboutery (my disclaimer!), but if Caitriona Ruane's talk that carrying a UK ID card is an abuse of human rights because it is British (ignoring the civil liberties bit for the point of this argument, and the fact that it wouldn't actually label the carrier British) doesn't that suggest that the right to Irish/British nationality is a matter of equality/human rights? If so, is it right in both cases to talk in terms of human rights, or is it wrong on both cases?

The difference is that for ID Cards to work they must be mandatory or effectively so. That'd be a problem for many.

No one from either side of the house had a problem with Margaret "Magic" Johnson representing variously Ballymena, Antrim, 6 county set-up, 9 county set-up, 32 county Ireland team, Great Britain and the UK in different competitions as far as I can remember.

However I might have overlooked the nature of what could be called on one hand "CROWN", and the other hand "GREEN", bowling as there is something in there to keep everyone happy!

However I might have overlooked the nature of what could be called on one hand "CROWN", and the other hand "GREEN", bowling as there is something in there to keep everyone happy!

LOL!

So if everyone here is agreed that tennis players from NI should be able to compete, as British players, for Britain and in British championships, just as players can play for Ireland, what's the argument about?

Harboy - so what you're saying is that this case isn't as important because he doesn't have to play Tennis? To most sportsmen their sport is important to them. Is this not similar logic to "If you don't like being British then don't live here" ?

Beano@everything Ulster (except for the unmentionable third)

No that's not what I'm saying nor is it a valid inference you could take when "reading between the lines" in fact it's a complete misunderstanding of what I said.

The points I made were
*that it's a non-story as lots of sports in these islands are organised in different ways,
*that there's no sectarian contant in the story
*that Kate Hoey's quotes in story seem to be a way to deprecate any coverage of real nationalist concerns
* that tennis died when MacEnroe retired
*that I could use the opportunity to make a reasonably clever (and if not clever, then at least original) play on words about Crown Green Bowling.

To be honest, the last one is the one for the epitaph.

How you made the leap from that to the meaning you ascribe to me says more about your outlook than anything I wrote.

Jimmy Sands

Not whataboutery just highlighting double standards

"The difference is that for ID Cards to work they must be mandatory or effectively so."

You don't see how I got from that to my interpretation that because playing Tennis isn't mandatory it doesn't matter?

"*that it's a non-story as lots of sports in these islands are organised in different ways,"

Are there any that would only allow a player from NI to be listed as British?

A pastime that would mark someone from NI out as British....um...

... is flag-burning yet organised on a competitive level?

Hope that everyone in NI can appear in their chosen sports under the flag of their choice and be represented (or not as they see fit) in the national Parliament of their choice by someone with a better understanding of what constitutes
important than Kate Hoey!