SOME positive news from PR disaster-prone loyalism

Hmmm Gonzo - The PR disasters recently have been on the other side of the fence ;)

No, they've definitely been on both sides recently, and loyalism is like a Millwall supporter, generally not caring what anyone outside its clique thinks about it.

Another story from today was about how loyalist paramilitary murals in Kilcooley, North Down are to be removed.

These stories seem to be the first fruits of the new partnership approach loyalism says it has engaged in with various authorities and the public. It's a bit of a face-saving exercise, but if it gets results, better late than never.

In other words, it may have finally sunk in to some of the knuckle-draggers in the UVF and UDA that even the average Prod doesn't particularly want a badly drawn red hand and balaclava'd gunman on his gable wall; to be beaten to a pulp by a drunken spide on the 'Twelfth'; to see flags celebrating terrorism on every lamppost and to have their windows melted by toxic smoke on the 'Eleventh Night'.

But if you'd rather engage in whataboutery, I'm sure there are those here who will indulge you.

I don't agree Gonzo. Loyalists are trying to get official recognition that they have the right to raise flags anywhere and "designate" areas as their territory in the first place. Accepting these proposals is a legitimization of unelected gangsterism.

"It is understood an agreement amongst the parties has determined that paramilitary flags will only be raised for four weeks in July and only in designated loyalist areas of the borough."

Which parties ?

"representatives of community groups and loyalist organisations."

Never mind the 'full tourist potential', the OO first port of call should be to address the annual exodus from NI. What's the point in developing something as a tourist attraction if there's nobody here to see it?

No, they've definitely been on both sides recently, and loyalism is like a Millwall supporter, generally not caring what anyone outside its clique thinks about it.

can you give an example of a PR disaster that comes anywhere near
1) Mitchel and his not a crime gaffe
2) IRA offering to Kille the killers of Mccartney
3) Martin and his veiled threat ?

I dare say they will at some point in the not too distant future do and/or say something incredibly repellent and stupid that grabs the headlines, But the only headline grabbing I can think of recently was the expulsion of Doris Day.

Millie
The annual exodus might be something to do with the unpredictable weather and desire to see new places/visit relatives abroad in the summer.

Davros,

How revealing.

A story purely about loyalism and guess what - you find a way to bring in the IRA.

You couldn't make it up.

Davros, there is of course the killing of Lisa Dorrian and the ongoing intimidation/attacks on ethnic minorities.

hardly "PR Disasters" in the sense of avoidable gaffes by spokesmen/ political front men Comrade, utterly repellent though these activities are. That's why I didn't offer the Northern Bank raid or the Murder of Robert McCartney as "PR disasters". Loyalism and republicanism both have committed horrible crimes. But Loyalist spokesmen haven't stuck their feet in their mouths the way Mitchel, Martin and The IRA did over the examples I gave.

This isn't in any way excusing the crimes of the Loyalists, but no Loyalist spokesman has suggested that they would "kill her killers and that's us quits ", No Loyalist politician has said her killing wasn't a crime , and No DUP spokesman has told the minority community to feep their heads down and remember their place.

thought this thread was about loyalism?

These sort of initiatives have already occurred in East Belfast. Loyalist paramilitary murals have been replaced in a number of areas eg. Woodstock link, where the UVF mural of many years has been replaced with Best, Blanchflower etc. Derek Dougan has been defaced several times though. Dealing with flags was always the next stage.

'but no Loyalist spokesman has suggested that they would "kill her killers and that's us quits'

No they would do what Johnnie and the boys in C Coy did and get another round of drinks in to clelbrate.

'No Loyalist politician has said her killing wasn't a crime'

Only republicans commir crimes. It was probable a measured military response or retaliatory for some perceived republican threat.

'No DUP spokesman has told the minority community to feep their heads down and remember their place.'

Correct, Ruth Patterson reserves that for the residents of Whitehall Sq.

"thought this thread was about loyalism?"

I think it is sol

However one poster seems incapable of commenting on the subject and is more interested in his usual Sinn Fein bashing.

Who said whataboutery is dead

Must be great being so optimistic

This thread starts with

"SOME positive news from PR disaster-prone loyalism. "

I'm commenting on that- Gonzo can and probably will tell me to stop, but I made a point, Comrade replied , I replied to comrade and only Pat addressed that reply, fair play to him.

Davros

It's a shame you had to turn this into another round of whataboutery, but I suggest you have a read the Sunday papers if you want to see any more loyalist-related PR gaffs every week.

EVERY week.

Anyway, Paul Berry is a loyalist - you don't HAVE to have a gun to be a loyalist, although it helps, I'm sure. I'm sure Mr Archer has donned a sash on occasion. Mr Copeland has friends in very low places. Lisa Dorrian has become the latest 'Disappeared', thanks to loyalists. Doris Day, Jim Spence and friends fill many embarrassing column inches every week. Your point seems to be that "themmuns are worse than us'uns (at the minute)" as though that's a valid argument. It isn't. It smacks of pathetic desperation.

I try and point out something that borders on the positive, yet you're forcing everyone to pick up on negatives just to 'prove you wrong'. You appear to want to be labelled a victim tonight.

Are you secretly a republican?

Comrade Stalin said:

Loyalists are trying to get official recognition that they have the right to raise flags anywhere and "designate" areas as their territory in the first place. Accepting these proposals is a legitimization of unelected gangsterism.

You're 100% spot on, and I agree with you. They are trying exactly what you say, and that bothers me, yes. In some ways this is a token effort by loyalism, which is so introverted, it's unlikely to understand that the rest of the world doesn't give a flying toss for their outdated and often-bizarre (to the rest of us) beliefs.

But what is an acceptable level of overt loyalist symbolism? None?

In the same way that 'being thankful for not being blown up by the IRA' somehow legitimises their political mopery and their expectation that everyone will suddenly give them everything they want as a sign of our undying gratitude, should we patronisingly pat the paramilitaries on the head and say 'Well done lads', or tell them to feck off back to whatever stone they crawled out from under and await them putting up 10 times as many flags the next day?

What's the alternative to this pathetic appeasement? Should we get Davy Vance to call in the Army or sthg?

Sorry Gonzo, it's your thread and you call the shots, but you are wrong. And no need to whinge because of a simple joke ....

in fact your very intro was "Whataboutery" so censure yourself ;)

Whoops .Only "you" was supposed to be in bold, Sorry.

Care to comment on the substance of the article yet?

:op

I'm not comfortable with the idea of a simple blanket ban: as you point out it becomes an occasion for victimhood and multiplies the symbols.

Some recognition defuses this situation, and prevents the emergence of victimhoodlums. It at least has the merit of drawing them into an arena of discussion, negotiation, redtape and procedure. It makes it all less "romantic."

Surely the recent revelations about British government negotiations with Loyalist terrorists and the potential payoff of £30,000,000 may have something to do with this latest Loyalist "concession"

The history of how British governments used these Loyalist terrorists tells you all you need to know about the difference between media fiction and the reality of what really went on in the North of Ireland

Care to expand, Jim Bob?

Care to comment on the substance of the article yet?

:op

They can coat it with whatever sugar they like, but in my opinion "Loyalism" will still be rotten to the core and beyond redemption - and with that I'll beat a (hopefully) dignified retreat!

Gonzo, I agree with that on all counts.

To me the problem starts with the politicians and I think the British and Irish governments need to take leadership on that department. If a politician is reluctant to openly criticize paramilitarism, in the way that unionist politicians clearly are, then the governments need to say so loudly, just as they (rightly) say so loudly when they are dealing with republicanism.

Republicans are being told the door is closed while the criminality continues. That is good. Now we need to hear unionist politicians being told that the door is closed until they too start showing some evidence that loyalist paramilitarism is not part of the future. We could start with statements from unionist politicians saying that all activity by loyalists should be immediately reported to the police.

In a blog about Trimble earlier this week, it was noted that Trimble was prevented some years ago from walking through Portadown by a gang of loyalists presumably due to his pro-agreement position. I asked whether he reported this incident to the police; there was no response but it seems reasonable to assume that he did not. Isn't it kind of serious that loyalist paramilitaries can get away with intimidating the leader of what was at the time the largest political party in NI ? Why didn't DT challenge them to stop him walking through Portadown - would they really have attacked him physically ? Why would DT or anyone else expect that other people support the PSNI when he won't do himself ?

"Never mind the 'full tourist potential', the OO first port of call should be to address the annual exodus from NI. What's the point in developing something as a tourist attraction if there's nobody here to see it?"

Really? There were 100,000 people at Scarva on the 13th last year.

The "exodus" happens anyhow as the Twelfth fourtnight is atleast where I work the main holiday of the year and alot of people disappear to Spain for 10 days or a fortnight because that is when the factories are shut. Absolutely nothing to do with the Twelfth except for the fact that The Twelfth fortnight is warapped around that day.

Perhaps some people do go away because of it, I don`t know but certainly alot of people are heading away at that time of year no matter where they live. It is the middle of summer after all and prime holiday season as reflected by the astronomical prices charged comapred to other times of the year.

"developing the "full tourist potential" of the Twelth

I think this is a very valuable initiative. Certainly there's a niche in the adventure holiday market. Sensitively packaged and marketed, these holidays could compete with the culture-tourism of Jerusalem, Cairo and Florence:

Participate in a demanding 25 minute hike through a catholic settlement - seasoned hikers may even be up to the gruelling return route - the locals may even join in the fun by throwing a mock "demonstration" - early risers may see the same locals dragged off the street by the head the morning before the hike in choreographed, stylised movements, not unlike Capoeira or Eastern martial arts

Don the traditional garb, like Simply the Best tee-shirts and Union Jack g-strings, and become part of the elegance of the whole occasion

Lose yourself in the haunting, whimsical melodies of "Dolly's Brae" and "the Billy Boys"

Enjoy the local firewater, pronounced "speshilbru" - the adventurous might try to mix in some "woodpecker" for the cheekily delicious "sneakbeit"

Revel in the visual splendor of the famed and fabled Field; childre, see how many different species of crisp packet you can identify while mum and dad are entranced by local witchdoctors calling down formulaic, centuries-old "curses" upon imaginary demons

Sample the delights of local womenfolk, their magnificent tattoos bringing colour, artistry and panache to their menfolk's big day; think Rio, think Bangkok, think Prague

Witness the medieval spectacle of the burning of the Pope - the tongue-in-cheek rascals thoroughly enjoy this impish, good-natured, punch'n'judy-esque joshing

Round the evening off with a traditional Belfast fireworks display - a show of paramilitary camaraderie by local dignitaries (complete with garish gold chains of office) and community workers - note the festive masks, not unlike those sported in Carnivale in Venice or Holy Week in Seville - the reason why the face must be obscured has been lost to history

For real night owls, participate in a traditional "burning out" ceremony - at once exhilarating, hands on and serving a social purpose

Gonzo,

Probably a bit more than baby steps. Congratulations to those who are beginning to take the initiative. There is no reason why the 11th and 12th need be the embarrassment they have become.

Maybe next year the paramilitary flags can be forgotten, the year after that the blood and thunder bands brought to heel, the year after that the ending of political speeches at the various fields, the year after that . . .

The equating of Unionist politicians (especially UU) relationships to paramilitaries to that of SF/IRA isn't accurate or legitimate.

The very event that you describe, a Unionist politician being confronted by loyalists should surely prove that the two are not, like SF/IRA, two sides of the same coin.

It's true that they should use whatever influence they have on them (if any) to end criminality etc. That said, "statements from unionist politicians saying that all activity by loyalists should be immediately reported to the police" shouldn't be necessary, as this is the assumed 'right thing to do' by Unionists anyway (Republicans on the other hand....)

I suppose it couldn't do any harm reiterating it though.

Hi MCT,

“Certainly there's a niche in the adventure holiday market. Etc, etc…”

Most of your points could equally be applied to Belfast’s St. Patrick’s Day parade.

What do you think we should do then? Scrap all things that the “other” side find offensive? Because that would also mean the scrapping of the GAA, “Garrison” sports, Irish language, Ulster Scots, Irish dance, Scottish dance etc, etc.

Perhaps we should celebrate our differences? Wishful thinking I know, as your comments reflected…

Have Republicans scrapped “Parity of Esteem”?

Congal Claen

Burnings out of protestants, community protests, violent police clearance of protesters, sectarian songs, burning of effigies of protestant spiritual leaders, rabble-rousing political speeches and paramiltary shows of strength have NOT been a feature of the St Patrick's Day Parade. A few Irish flags have been waved. You are being disingenuous.

In fairness, low class behaviour and excessive drinking have been, but hey, this is modern Europe.

The other parallels you draw are ludicrous.

Strange though, I don't find the Twelth offensive. I'm entirely happy for unionists to celebrate it, I just don't think that it needs to involve sectarianism, brutalisation of nationalist communities and paramilitarism. Surely we can agree on that?

And I certainly don't think that public money should be spent on marketing it as a tourist draw. But that's David Vance rubbing off on me.

"Have Republicans scrapped “Parity of Esteem”?"

Certainly not. But we should not allow it to degenerate into a "parody of esteem".

"I'm entirely happy for unionists to celebrate it, I just don't think that it needs to involve sectarianism, brutalisation of nationalist communities and paramilitarism. Surely we can agree on that?"

Certainly. I would like to see all these things removed, not only from the twelfth, but also from Northern Ireland in general.

"And I certainly don't think that public money should be spent on marketing it as a tourist draw."

Surely if public money was to be spent on it that would be an argument to give the local civic authorities more say in how the events are run, and emphasise the positive cultural aspects and begin eliminating those you highlight above.

?

Although perhaps the same approach should be taken to the St Patrick's day parade in Belfast - be good, then you might get public money.

Hi MCT,

I've been to the Twelfth. I have NEVER...
saw burnings out of Catholics
burning of effigies of Catholic spiritual leaders
heard rabble-rousing political speeches or paramiltary shows of strength

"community protests and violent police clearance of protesters"

These don't happen at St. Paddy's because you don't have the equivalent of SF on the loyalist side whipping up protestors into a frenzy.

IRA men have actually led the NY St.Paddy's day parade. Who's Catriona defending in Colombia at the minute?

And there's no sectarian songs during St.Paddy's day? Maybe you should stroll around Renshaws for the annual St. Paddy's late night riot with the police.

And I'm being disingenuous!!!

No "side" has a monopoly on bigotry in NI, or Ireland for that matter. To think otherwise is bigotted itself...

Congal Claen

The Twelfth is not limited to the Field. Are you trying to tell me that Catholics have not been burned out of their homes around the Twelfth, that popes are not burned on Eleventh night bonfires, that paramilitary shows of strength have not taken place at such events around the North and that political leaders do not make anti-republican speeches at Twelfth events? If you are, you are the very epitome of disingenuity, emboldened script or not.

"[Clearances of protestors] don't happen at St. Paddy's because you don't have the equivalent of SF on the loyalist side whipping up protestors into a frenzy."

Dear God. Listen to yourself.

"And there's no sectarian songs during St.Paddy's day? Maybe you should stroll around Renshaws for the annual St. Paddy's late night riot with the police."

Certainly, they are not an institutionalised aspect of the celebration.

"No "side" has a monopoly on bigotry in NI, or Ireland for that matter. To think otherwise is bigotted itself..."

Bland, trite, meaningless, diversionary, irrelevant drivel.

The fact is that the Twelfth as currently celebrated is deviant, divisive, ugly and sectarian. It is a cultural eyesore and a rallying point for sectarianism. It could and should be better. Until it is improved, it should receive no public funding.

Beano

"Although perhaps the same approach should be taken to the St Patrick's day parade in Belfast - be good, then you might get public money."

The fact which you can close your eyes to if you wish is that the St Patrick's Day parade IS an inclusive event (even if still rather naff). The fact that Irishness is celebrated does not make it exclusive. Even Billy Hutchinson (a braver man than most unionists) has acknowledged the successful efforts made by the Committee in that regard. Any comparison with the Twelfth actually insults the organisers of the St P event.

MCT I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here and have little or no respect for Billy Hutchinson, a man with more love for England than Ulster, so that won't sway me.

How you can on one hand claim that the burning out of catholics is institutionalised in the 12th because "it happens around that time" and yet dismiss the 'party songs' around Renshaws as peripheral or of no relation to the parade beggars belief.

MCT - after events this year do you think there should be no more Bloody Sunday commemorative marches ?

Well we have a visiting lodge from Birmingham, Alabama this year again and hopefully the East Timor guys will be joining us too. Should be increasingly festival like, although the 12th in my area have never had any trouble and have always been family affairs it is good to see more being built around the date such as culture and heritage events, displays, reenactments etc.

Beano

"How you can on one hand claim that the burning out of catholics is institutionalised in the 12th because "it happens around that time" and yet dismiss the 'party songs' around Renshaws as peripheral or of no relation to the parade beggars belief."

I made no such claim. My point is that sectarian songs are an institutionalised aspect of the Twelfth though, but not of StP'sDay.

And try to keep it sensible - "beggars belief" me hole.

Davros

I'm not suggesting banning the Twelfth, just denying it public funds. If the events you talk of were repeated annually for hundreds of years, then yes. But of course, you're just smokescreening. Amateurishly, if I may say so.

Hi MCT,

Beano beat me to it on the "institutionalised" point.

"The fact is that the Twelfth as currently celebrated is deviant, divisive, ugly and sectarian."

I could equally say that...

"The fact is that SF is deviant, divisive, ugly and sectarian."

A party I believe you have said you support in previous posts. You could also add murder and criminal to the list as well.

Well people have basically got two choices. Yap and complain and drag the whole thing down and continue with the more city like 12th parades full of hoods and drunkards or encourage a bit of initiative and progressiveness in developing these things into carnivals and festivals.

One thing that is certain is that they are here to stay.

Congal Claen

"I could equally say that..."The fact is that SF is deviant, divisive, ugly and sectarian."

You could indeed, but not very convincingly given its initiatives over the last decade and more.

However, as you'll recall, we're talking about public funding for the Twelfth, not the nature of poitics here generally.

"A party I believe you have said you support in previous posts"

Support as in a football team? No. Vote for yes. I'm not uncritical of them.

Alan2

"people have basically got two choices. Yap and complain and drag the whole thing down ... or encourage a bit of initiative and progressiveness in developing these things into carnivals and festivals."

My point exactly.

"One thing that is certain is that they are here to stay."

Bravo. Let's make them festivals of something other than hate.

Hi MCT,

"You could indeed, but not very convincingly given its initiatives over the last decade and more."

More than 20 murders. High profile gangsterism. Very noble indeed. I think I'll stick with the 12th...

Congal Claen

"More than 20 murders"

by Sinn Fein? wow, that would be serious! Please post details, listing the SF members identified as being responsible.

"High profile gangsterism"

by Sinn Fein? wow, that would be serious! Please post details, listing the SF members identified as being responsible.

"I think I'll stick with the 12th..."

You can lead a horse to water...

Hi MCT,

Silly me. You're quite correct, SF and the Ra are 2 distinct organisations.

And Agian, I'm the disingenuous one.