Finally a saner analysis of where the Unionist community is presently at.

"extremist
• noun a person who holds extreme political or religious views"

Nothing in common with the DUP then?

I do hope Dr. Paisley is feeling better after his wee rant.

The North Antrim MP launched a savage broadside at Mr Clinton after the former US President challenged, during a visit to Dublin, Mr Paisley`s claim that the Good Friday Agreement was dead.

Mr Paisley said: "The discredited ex-President of the United States of America, Bill Clinton, simply revealed his unmitigated cheek in going to a country that wants to destroy Ulster`s place in the United Kingdom and then lectures us that our democratic expression of our own future must be set aside to conform to the will of the country that claims supremacy over it.

"The Belfast Agreement, which in itself is devoid of democracy, has made it clear that we must have a new beginning, and that beginning must close and bar the gates of its government to terrorists of whatever side they come from.

"Clinton cannot have his way to force IRA / Sinn Fein terrorists into the government of this part of the United Kingdom, as I told him to his face when he was in Belfast."

http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=60670

"The DUP vote is an expression of discontent, alienation and a feeling of marginalisation among unionists in Northern Ireland. It is not a sign of growing sectarian hostility to Catholics."

Stating the glaringly obvious, but I suppose unfortunately there's some out there who have to be told...

Rogue

There is already a thread on what Clinton said perhaps that is more relevant for your particular comment.

Mike

Plenty that need to be tols

sorry fail_deal,

now, of course, I see it

*** of to stand in the corner until my beamer subsides***

(Sorry if this appears to be man rather than ball but that is the inevitable consequence of the pre-eminence of Dr Paisley in his party)

The "Dr" berates the pope in the European parliament, he preaches high octane old testament fire and brimstone aimed often at the Roman idolators, he has a fundamentalist website (mirrored by his many publications down the years) which is rather strident on his non conciliatory attitudes to those of a different opinion to himself and unionists vote for him, but this does not represent a hardening of attitudes????

Confused of Norn Ireland

lamh_dearg

The DUP got the vote not the Free Presbyterian Church.

It is also symtomatic of disillusion with the UUP

Fair_deal

to those of us outside they appear as inextricably linked as SF and PIRA are

Fair_Deal - doesn't Paisley make use of the pulpit for political points and vice versa.

How many members of the DUP do not espouse FP ideology...? the two seem dangerously intertwined.

LaDolorosa
"doesn't Paisley make use of the pulpit for political points and vice versa."

As a Minister he probably makes no more political announcements wearing his 'religious' hat than, for example, Ken Newell, Robin Eames, Sean Brady or Denis Faul, all of whom are more than happy to make political statements.

"How many members of the DUP do not espouse FP ideology...? the two seem dangerously intertwined."

It would seem like that for most republicans. Of the nine DUP MP's I think only three are FPee's. How many DUP MLA's are F/Pee's I dont know. But Paisley welcomes allcomers to join the DUP.irrespective of their class, race or creed.

It is no coniencedense that many high ranking DUPers are also gospel singers in the Free Preysbetarian church: Berry, Simpson and McCrea to name a few.

Apoligies (spending too long on the computer):

It is no coincidence that many high ranking DUPers are gospel singers in the Free Presbyterian church: Berry, Simpson and McCrea to name a few.

Apoligies (spending too long on the computer):

It is no coincidence that many high ranking DUPers are gospel singers in the Free Presbyterian church: Berry, Simpson and McCrea to name a few.

I was disappointed with what Clinton said he clearly seems to think that the GFA is still what the unionists want it isnt and they showed that at the recent election along with their disgust for the Sinn fein/Ira movement.

LD,

Believe it or not many members of the DUP would quite affrounted by your remark, however I am aware that this is a commonly held view. But fret not, I am here to set the matter straight...the DUP and the Free Presbyterian church are in no way 2 sides to the same coin. Granted, many members of the DUP belong to the Free Presbyterian church but many do not. Peter Robinson, deputy leader, does not belong to the Free P's nor does Arlene Foster, Jimmy Spratt, Iris Robinson, Sammy Wilson, Jeffrey Donaldson.

I will admit that the DUP in the past had a much stronger link with the Free P's but the 1980s saw Peter Robinson attempt to separate the 2 and 20 years on the two are no longer intertwined.

Jeoffrey Donaldson is a Free Presbyterian.

FYU,

Not sure what you are getting at. Yes they are gospel singers within the Free P church but what are you implying by stating that "it is no coincidence"?!

No, it is not a coincidence - in that these people obviously believe the doctrines the Free P church teaches and have deliberately joined that church because of this. However, many more prominent members are not Free P gospel singers...is this a coincidence too?

*confused*

FYU,

Could you share with us exactly what you see as these 'extreme' views us Duppers are meant to have?

Thankyou

"many do not. Peter Robinson"
That’s why he will not become the next leader shortly.

"Peter Robinson attempt to separate the 2"
How did he try to do that? Did big Ian agree with him?

My point was that being gospel singers would have greatly increased their chances of becoming rising stars in the DUP. Are there any COI ministers also DUP MLA's or cllrs even?

So when the Free P's preach that the DUP are the only party to vote for they are not actually supporting the DUP?!?
As you would say *confused*

FYU

Being gospel singers would have had no effect on their political ambitions.

I think Big Ian did agree with Robinsons view of seperating FP from DUP.

Indeed or True Blue (which ever you prefer)

Good to see that you still only reply to me (obsession maybe).

Let me see, would thinking that they now have the right to rule N.I practically by themselves be called extreme?

Would thinking the SF will just get up and leave N.I be considered extreme?

Would demanding SF no political representation or power even be considered extreme?

But wait and see, give them 6 months they will be up in Stormont walking side by side with SF after all the hard lad talk Paisley has put out of him over the years. Hes desperate for a deal, for he is desperate to become first minister before he 'leaves' here.

"That’s why he will not become the next leader shortly"
You have inside information?? I haven't heard that 1...but as he is deputy leader...it is possibe he might become leader...

"How did he try to do that? Did big Ian agree with him?"
He knew that if the DUP were to go down the road of being 'inextricably linked' (to quote a phrase used a lot...) with the Free P church the party would have a very narrow appeal. However, as you can see for recent results the party has a wide catchment and appeals to those who are not of the Free P persuasion.

I don't know about what "big ian" thought at the time but I'd say hes laughing now...

"So when the Free P's preach that the DUP are the only party to vote for they are not actually supporting the DUP?!?"
Im not denying that the Free P church has a DUP following...afterall, their moderator is the DUP's leader. However, they are not 2 sides of the same coin. The 2 are not mutaully dependent and and once you become a member of the DUP you do not automatically become a member of the Free P's...at least I hope not or I'm in big diffs!!

Still confused?

Roger,
But it would have dramatically increased Paisley's personal opinion of them. Look at Berry sure; he seemed to have risen very quickly if you ask me. (but then he fell quickly too!)

Would demanding SF no political representation or power even be considered extreme?

No because this is also the UUP's and the Alliances line until the IRA disbands for good.

Betty,
Anything is possible but I doubt many would approve of it. Dodd’s will be the next leader.

I realise that the DUP now have support from others churches such as COI. My point was if you are a free P then you are extremely likely to support the DUP, the same goes for the Independent Methodists, it would nearly be seen as a 'sin' to vote for the UUP in their eyes.

Roger,
I was refering to the long term. Well thats what the DUP use to say anyway.

FYU,

Dodds is another possibility but I think you're being slightly naive if you are suggesting that Peter will be excluded because he does not attend the Free P church. You are accusing the decision maker in the process of discrimination, which is quite serious.

Could you not approach the issue and say that if Dr Paisley was strongly against membership of any other church (which is what I am getting from you're comments) then how have Peter Robinson and the others risen to the position they're in? Surely if Dr Paisley wanted the next leader to be a Free P he would have kept the more prominent positions for Free P's to erase any chance of non-Free P's getting leadership.

As regards Free P's and Ind Meth's not voting for the UUP because it is a 'sin'...I hope you you will explain to them that 'decent people' vote UUP...so in fact it is not a sin despite what they may believe.

Just on that topic though, could one not argue that because the UUP's message was 'decent people vote UUP'...the UUP were in fact suggesting that voting DUP was 'indecent' and consequently...a sin?!

If I am being 'naive' I apologise but that is my opinion and probably the opinion of many many other people throughout NI.

"kept the more prominent positions for Free P's"
As you have already said that would have been discrimination.

I have never said that Paisley is anti-COI or anti-Methodist. All I am saying is that the Free P's and the I. Methodists all vote for the DUP.

I will be truthful with you and just say the 'decent people...' was a mistake so I am not even going to try to defend it.

In the Northern Ireland 2001 religious census there was only 11,902+ 87  Free Presbyterians registered Check here:
http://www.irishchurches.org/Church_Statistics/body_church_statistics.html

The DUP need one heck of a lot more votes and support from non F/pees than this to get to were he is today. with MP's

I would hazard a guess that most Free P's support the DUP and always have. I am not sure what that signifies. I do not think that most DUP supporters are Free P's. Are there that many Free P's anyway. Recently the DUP has been attracting support from much further afield. I remember a Roman Catholic unionist lamenting to me after the agreement that he was now going to have to vote DUP as there was no other party that would defrend the Union and take a stand against terrorists. I would have to be honest and say he was not relishing the prospect. I was quite shocked myself, it was before I had started to think along the same lines myself.

I am pretty sure Jeffrey is a P but I don't think ha is a Free one.

In the Northern Ireland 2001 religious census there was only 11,902+ 87  Free Presbyterians registered Check here:
http://www.irishchurches.org/Church_Statistics/body_church_statistics.html

The DUP need one heck of a lot more votes and support from non F/pees than this to get to were Paisley's DUP is today with 9 MP's

"I have never said that Paisley is anti-COI or anti-Methodist. All I am saying is that the Free P's and the I. Methodists all vote for the DUP."

Good, glad to hear it! Keep it up!

FYU, who they vote for is their own choice...but I doubt if all I.Meths vote DUP. I have never considered a connection there. But hey...its great to hear all these denominations who apparently "all vote DUP"...keep going, this is fun!

There are only 1,771 Ind -Methodists in NI. They wouldn't make that much difference.
The bulk of support for the DUP in this last election came from the three main larger Protestant sects of C of I, Presbyterian and Methodist plus a large number of secular prods who never attend chuch. In the past these voters would all have voted UUP.

fyu

obssession.....i think not. but on the subject of obseesion whats with you thinking i'm true blue-simply not true fyu. sorry.

i've no doubt peter robinson will be the next leader of the DUP and i've no doubt that he will be welcomed and supported in that role by the party as a whole. He is widely recognised as a shrewd political operator and that is exactly what the leader of a political party should be.

What is interesting though is that you look at the potential next leader of the DUP and you see a wealth of talent that is the envy of a certain other unionist party (sorry, they arent classed a party at Westminster anymore ). Robinson, Dodds, Donaldson, Allister.....the list is pretty impressive.

As for your examples of our 'extreme' nature, i deny the first one - its simply not true. We are more than willing to govern with democrats.
As for the other two, i'd say that they are a reflection of our desire to see a Northern ireland which is free from terror and run by democratic principles.

Is that extreme?

Btw, i see divisions are still rife in the UUP. Lady Hermon says Davy Trimbles legacy is that he brought the DUP to the middle ground, yet you say we're extremists. Now who are we to believe....

Robinson, Dodds, Donaldson, Allister.....the list is pretty impressive.

Indeedeo,

What do you think Paisley and this impressive bunch of DUP MP's will do if the IRA instead of issuing a statement they will disarm and disband are instead going back to the armed struggle, because the GFA failed them?

Appease them surely, isn't that how to deal with terrorists?

".. secular prods who never attend chuch."

If they're secular then how can they be prods ?

George2,
I am not claiming that the Free P’s are the only DUP voters, that would be impossible and just a stupid remark at best. My point is that out of those 11,902+ 87 you mentioned I would be pretty sure that at least 9,500 out of the 10,000 voters would have been DUP.

Betty,
There has always been a clear link between the I. Methodists and the DUP. I would not call two denominations a lot.

It is without doubt that more and more members of the COI etc or moving to the DUP. I think the majority however would be coming from the Presbyterian Church with then smaller numbers from the COI and Methodist.

Indeed or True Blue,
Only time will tell on the DUP next leader subject.

“wealth of talent”
Maybe in your opinion, but is that always a good thing when it comes to choosing a leader? If Robinson gets it- Dodd’s will be in a huff for he would then probably never have a chance at leadership. Allister, nah he will never become leader. Donaldson, no one in the DUP would trust him enough.

“the list is pretty impressive”
Four?

Give it time and the cracks in the DUP will start to show. No one has ever had the balls to stand up to Paisley but once he goes people will start to lose their disciplined ways among the DUP.

“free from terror”
There will have to be sacrifices made and until the DUP wise up and look at the reality of it the threat of ‘terror’ will remain here.

Bertie,
Yes but we will all know who to look at and where the blame would rightly lie.

Betty, re your post of 7.02pm

"Believe it or not many members of SF would quite affrounted by your remark, however I am aware that this is a commonly held view. But fret not, I am here to set the matter straight...SF and the Provisional IRA are in no way 2 sides to the same coin. Granted, many members of SF belong to the Provisional IRA but many do not.

I will admit that SF in the past had a much stronger link with PIRA but the 1990s saw Gerry Adams attempt to separate the 2 and 15 years on the two are no longer intertwined."

Spooky or what?

"There will have to be sacrifices made and until the DUP wise up and look at the reality of it the threat of ‘terror’ will remain here"

Good point FYU,

There is an old saying take the whip to a mad dog and all you do is make it madder. Give it milk and honey and it ends up licking your hand.

Political Lessons from UUers LOL

More importantly, how many DUP Free Presbyterians are Liverpool fans? And does this correspond to a similar proportion of Independent Methodists?

I have also heard a rumour that some Catholics vote for Nationalist parties.

(sorry....)

Lets not forget that Trimble got one in three of the Unionist votes and more than the SDLP and should have got at least three MPs

Maybe the UUP won't be so dismissive of PR-STV for Westminster in future...

George2

The UUP gave plenty of milk and honey to the IRA and all they got in return was one MP.

FYU

I though the GFA was supposed to erase the threat of terror what more sacrafices can we make to Sinn Fein Ira they cant be allowed into government fully armed with the 'THREAT OF TERROR' hanging over them. You made that mistake I voted DUP in the last election so that mistake would not happen again.

fjh

George2

"The UUP gave plenty of milk and honey to the IRA and all they got in return was one MP."

Sure lets see what your 'sackcloth and ashes" man of the cloth leader does for NI now. Its obvious he only cherry picks parts of scripture which suits him and leaves out other parts:

" You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy." But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," Matthew 5 -43-44

David Trimble will go down in history as a true spirtual man the Protestant Unionists of NI rejected, scorned and spitefully gloated over.
his defeat in the 2005 westminister election.

I have been amazed at how little gloating there has been over Trimble, considering what he has done. I myself was expecting myself to be gleeful, but the emotion is much more just sheer relief that he is gone.

"People voted for the DUP not because their policies differ radically from the UUP`s, but because the DUP have articulated a sense of discontent and dissatisfaction."

That is the key point in Dr Gilligan's piece which no one has picked up on.

The DUP are and always have been brilliant at articulating a sense of discontent and dissatisfaction with the status quo. They are superb at protest and Paisely is a populist par excellance.

However as Gilligan says:-
" Once they take power they will, like the other main parties, have to face the difficult problem of how to inspire the electorate"

That is the key point.

At this point in time the unionist electorate do not want SF within a mile of exercising Executive authority in NI (for sound reasons- not bigotry) and many were motivated to vote DUP for the first time because they 'sounded' like the best bet for preventing this (SF in government) happening. If the December Comprehensive Agreement had gone through that might not have been the case, but DUP have been very clever in working the system since 1998 but not taking responsibility for its defects.

FYU,

so a wealth of talent is a bad thing! Good job you're in a party that doesnt have to worry about it!

When Peter Robinson becomes the next leader of the DUP he will have the support of the entire party, and there will be no 'huffing' by anyone.

That was only a few examples of the wealth of talent within the DUP. I could have went on to say Campbell, Foster, Wilson etc etc. Really there are few parties where the whole officer team could head away off to a paradise island and be safe in the knowledge that the party was in safe hands. That is the case in the DUP.

As for this defeatist attitude you espouse, we in the DUP belive in a vibrant, confident unionism which does not see the 'reality' through the spectacles of a beaten, old, haggered, out of touch party.

If the UUP hasnt realised thats why they are in the situation they are in, then they will never even start to recover.

Indeedo,

The DUP are not in government. Their nine MP's in the House of Commons are fouth in line behind the elected party which GOVERNS the UK & the State of NI. The DUP's 30 MLA's might as well be sitting on the steps of stormont scratching their b**llocks, singing gospels songs, or discussing were its good to bury the dead or empy the bins for all the good they will be doing.

For your information Peter Hain MP ( Born in South Aftica) and other labour party English MP's and their civil servants **GOVERN** Northern ireland. The DUP are powerless.

One reason why I don't think the UUP is terminally sick is that the DUP isn't universally top-heavy on talent. Sure, it has many talented people. But there's also a fair bit of traditionalist dross who would never have been elected to their positions if it hadn't been for Trimble's dreadful tenure.

Just out of interest, if the DUP reject the GFA, and won't deal with Sinn Fein, won't a significant section of militant nationalism eventually go back to war again. You could argue that the GFA is a bad agreement and it's worth the risk, but from an outsiders point of view, it doesn't look like SF/IRA got what they wanted (a united Ireland). The inbuilt unionist majority stays and the principle of consent is agreed to. There is power sharing and so on, but that is inevitable in any agreement.The DUP are extremists, because they are taking an extreme position about the union and 'not talking to terrorists'Please don't create desperation again in the nationalist community.

"Just out of interest, if the DUP reject the GFA, and won't deal with Sinn Fein, won't a significant section of militant nationalism eventually go back to war again."

Interested,

thats what could happen, after all why would the IRA be training new recruits if they were going to disarm & disband? Thats why I asked in an earlier post what can the nine DUP MP's do if war starts again?

IRA still training recruits:

"THE latest report by the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC) concludes that the IRA is still recruiting and training young people in the use of guns and bombs.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-1622454,00.html

this just adds to the arguement that many many of us made at the time of the agreement, that IRA/Sinn Fein never had any intention of giving up violence and were just going to squeeze what they could and retain the option for the time when the concessions dried up.

"What do you think Paisley and this impressive bunch of DUP MP's will do if the IRA instead of issuing a statement they will disarm and disband are instead going back to the armed struggle, because the GFA failed them?"

Easy "I TOLD YOU SO" (the dupers are counting on it)

"Easy "I TOLD YOU SO" (the dupers are counting on it)"

I see, so if they are counting on it, what are they going to do to defend all those Unionists who voted the DUP's 9 MP's into parliament?

quick throw them a concession, amnesty for on the runs - lets start with that

Roger,
“You made that mistake I voted DUP in the last election so that mistake would not happen again”
Then tell me Roger, what are the DUP planning on doing now?

George2,
“David Trimble will go down in history as a true spiritual man the Protestant Unionists”
Couldn’t agree more. In 20 yrs time the unionist population will look back in regret at the day he fell.

Indeed or True Blue,
“so a wealth of talent is a bad thing! Good job you're in a party that doesnt have to worry about it!”
How’s that? What exactly is this talent you refer to? The only successful thing the DUP have done is win a few elections. The UUP were at the head of this country when it was going through one of the most violent of terrorist campaigns in the world, now if you don’t call that an achievement I don’t know what you could!

“he will have the support of the entire party, and there will be no 'huffing' by anyone”
Just you wait and see, there will be people there that will respect him at the beginning but as time goes on will start to stab him in the back.

Foster? A wealth of talent? So what has she got to feel proud about.... destroying the YU branch in Fermanagh, annoying most of her fellow UU colleagues, being a lap dog to Jeffery, then betraying her original electorate. Wow she qualified isn’t she. She’s nearly got all the essentials to become the next DUP leader.

“As for this defeatist attitude you espouse, we in the DUP belive in a vibrant, confident unionism which does not see the 'reality' through the spectacles of a beaten, old, haggered, out of touch party”
That has been the main message from the DUP for the last few elections. Now that they have seemed to have got their way, what now? Maybe they will try to wipe out the UKUP, PUP, Alliance etc. until then they actual do meet Unionisms real enemy and then they will run away and hide.

I wonder what will fill the DUPs next election broadcasts and manifestoes?

FYU
"The UUP were at the head of this country when it was going through one of the most violent of terrorist campaigns in the world, now if you don’t call that an achievement I don’t know what you could!"

The point is that at this time the UUP had not accepted appeasement nor had they broken their promises to the electorate.

Arlene is intelligent articultate and was able to get endorsement from outside her party. She has networked effectively with those sympathetic to unionism on the mainland and it is a crying shame sge is not on the Westminster stage to develop this further.

Arlene stuck by her electorate by sticking to "no guns no givernment".

She certainly annoyed her UU colleagues by being talented and by polling higher than TE. Her UU colleagues certainly annoyed many voters by failing to do a deal on F&ST. Misogyny also played a part ("All girls together" what a give away!)

Re enemies. I consider the PUP my enemy and I would be delighted to hear of its demise, by whoever's hands (even the UUP!).

FYU,

i dont know why i bother trying to reason with you, but here goes....again!

'The only successful thing the DUP have done is win a few elections.'

-well in having this electoral success the DUP have secured the backing of the unionist people of Northern Ireland through their principled unionism based on a policy of defending unionist interests and not simply appeasing terrorists like the UUP did. and btw, to win a few elections is a pretty important part of the life of a political party. Maybe thats why the UUP seem to be on a life support machine...........

'Foster? A wealth of talent? So what has she got to feel proud about.... destroying the YU branch in Fermanagh, annoying most of her fellow UU colleagues, being a lap dog to Jeffery, then betraying her original electorate. Wow she qualified isn’t she. She’s nearly got all the essentials to become the next DUP leader.'

-Try to step back from the bitter personal attacks and think before you type. You claim she destroyed the YU's in Fermanagh - how exactly? Was it ever vibrant? Was Tom not involved and able to stop this terrible destruction?!?!?
She may have annoyed James, Sammy, Bertie, Joan, Raymond and their cronies, but at the end of the day what principled unionist hasnt annoyed this motley crew in the last 6 years. Maybe what annoys them most is the fact that they where told time and time again in FST UUP meetings what would happen as a result of the path they where taking, and yet choose to ignore it. Does the fact Arlene and co. can say 'i told you so' bug James and co? I'd say it riles them to the very core.
You say she betrayed her original electorate. The facts show otherwise FYU, she brought them with her. Remember the General Election result? Its there for all to see.

And i'd say a more accurate description of betraying the electorate is saying 'no guns, no government' before an election and then having 'no guns, 3 governments' after it. Ya think?

By leaving the UUP Foster and Donaldson held onto their principles don't forget that they and other UUP members released a mini manefesto on which the public supported them.

From what I am aware of neither unionist party have a vibrant youth wing in Fermanagh and that has always been the case.

I am disappointed throughout NI to hear many UUP(although certainly not all) idiots congratulate Sinn Fein ira on becomming mayors etc its a disgrace.