Is there any evidence that the DUP are serious about ending terrorist and criminal activity, or enter the same basis as democratic parties rather than ones allied to loyalist paramilitarism ?

comrade stalin,

The DUP will work with all democrartic parties. The fact is the PUP have such small representation that they would never be in the executive anyway. David Ervine will face a tough fight to retain his East Belfast seat next time anyway.
Why should we be held back just because IRA/SF won't give up their guns. The democratic parties should be able to go on without them and SF can catch up later. There are too many urgent problems which need addressing to waste time waiting for the IRA.
If the SDLP would let go of SF's coat tails for one minute and see who it is that they are actually losing votes to they might just see sense.

There is no evidence that the IRA are going to politically empower Sinn Fein by demobbing.

Although they dallied with paramilitarism, the DUP relied on the RUC and british army to underwrite their intransigence. Pity the army is now in Iraq and the PSNI civic guards are in caring sharing mode.

As Wales and Scotland move to semi-detached britishness, it is hard to believe that the Brits will pay much to maintain the Union on DUP terms. As Durkan called for the Dublin forum for peace and reconciliation to be reconvened, Dodds called for the British MP's in the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee to sit in Belfast. For the London MP's the Union is not worth the time waiting in the Airport. It will not happen.

The DUP never negated SFIRA's 'Strategy of Tension', only complementing their destabilising efforts, right through to this day. Watch out for new acts of civic vandalism by SFPIRA, sans firearms, or course.

The suburban self-righteous never troubled themselves to analyse what was going on, and a party led by a christian fundamentalist was never going to devise a counterstrategy acceptable to high church tories or labourites. Although areas segregated by religion suits efficient churchbuilding as well as it does the logistics of revolutionary insurgency.

The consensus is no politics please, we're Irish.

There is no evidence that the IRA are going to politically empower Sinn Fein by demobbing.

Although they dallied with paramilitarism, the DUP relied on the RUC and british army to underwrite their intransigence. Pity the army is now in Iraq and the PSNI civic guards are in caring sharing mode.

As Wales and Scotland move to semi-detached britishness, it is hard to believe that the Brits will pay much to maintain the Union on DUP terms. As Durkan called for the Dublin forum for peace and reconciliation to be reconvened, Dodds called for the British MP's in the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee to sit in Belfast. For the London MP's the Union is not worth the time waiting in the Airport. It will not happen.

The DUP never negated SFIRA's 'Strategy of Tension', only complementing their destabilising efforts, right through to this day. Watch out for new acts of civic vandalism by SFPIRA, sans firearms, or course.

The suburban self-righteous never troubled themselves to analyse what was going on, and a party led by a christian fundamentalist was never going to devise a counterstrategy acceptable to high church tories or labourites. Although areas segregated by religion suits efficient churchbuilding as well as it does the logistics of revolutionary insurgency.

The consensus is no politics please, we're Irish.

If we are going to examine the democratic credentials of political parties then for progress to be made that must occur across the board.
Unionists should not underestimate the distrust of the DUP that exists within the nationalist community.
To nationalists the DUP have had a long association with loyalist paramilitaries that also has to be addressed. Right from the UWC strike through to Drumcree and on to the interface troubles the DUP have been right on the shoulder of the killers from within their community. The UR episode that involved the importation of vast amounts of weaponry has never been satisfactorily resolved.

Of course very few of them ever went to jail, at Clontibret the prospect of jail had poor Peter Euro (nee punt) in a bit of a pickle. No, the DUP prefer to adopt the word in the ear approach, then step back and let others get on with it. Cowardly, but no less effective when you have a hard line to defend.

Their behaviour at local council level also leaves a lot to be desired. So by all means question republicans, just remember to have answers when the questions are directed back.

Are the DUP themselves serious about a deal, I suspect all the recent talk of the DUPes doing a deal was just electioneering, a strategy to win over the middle ground, all the evidence points to Paisley wanting to dominate, not rule.

Just another excuse not to share power with fenians.

Ballysillam--"The DUP will work with all democratic parties!!!!!" NONSENSE When it was the SDLP in power the DUP and the rev Ian were to the fore in bringing the sunningdale power sharing administration down -through violence and intimidation I might add.

You really mean "the DUP will not work with fenian parties."

To paraphrase the good doctor "unionist bigotry does not change its spots".

The thing about the Sunningdale Agreement that unionists most objected to was the council of ireland.

aquifer,

"As Wales and Scotland move to semi-detached britishness"

Have you payed any attention to the election results in scotland and wales? The nationailsts got destroyed. There numbers are down and the only reason the SNP have 2 of theirs is because of centuries old constitueny sizes. A good boundary re-drawing should get any that are left out for good.

If you think that the british MPs in the house of commons don't pay any attention to the DUP then you are sadly mistaken. I was in the public gallery when Ian Paisley as leader of the 4th biggest party spoke in the opening of the house. The response he got was overwhelming and not just from the Tories and Labour.

heck,

As you well know the DUP will join in an assembly with all democratic parties wether they agree with their policies or not.
As far as sharing power with "fenians". What do you think happened on Thursday in Belfast City Hall? Is Pat Convery not a "fenian"?

Ballysillan, the reason the MPs listened to Paisley is that there is a perception he can deliver a deal that will finally allow Westminster to put Northern Ireland on the back burner, once these same awestruck MPs realise that Paisley can't or more likely won't deliver they will drop him like a hot potato as happened with Trimble. As for the reference to the DUP being the 4th largest party, they represent 2% or thereabouts of the total number of MP’s, I wouldn’t get too carried away!

To nationalists the DUP have had a long association with loyalist paramilitaries that also has to be addressed.

Certainly that is an exaggerated misrepresentation that had been made to narionalists and the world outside of N.I. ad nauseam by the RM Propaganda machine Pat and it should indeed be addressed.

To nationalists the DUP have had a long association with loyalist paramilitaries that also has to be addressed.

Certainly that is an exaggerated misrepresentation that had been made to nationalists and the world outside of N.I. ad nauseam by the RM Propaganda machine Pat and it should indeed be addressed.

tiny,

To I sense a slight hint of jealousy...?

Ballysillan: "Have you payed any attention to the election results in scotland and wales? The nationailsts got destroyed. There numbers are down and the only reason the SNP have 2 of theirs is because of centuries old constitueny sizes. A good boundary re-drawing should get any that are left out for good."

You obviously haven't paid much attention yourself to them, far from getting destroyed the SNP gained two seats. You have also obviously overlooked the redrawing of Scottish boundaries which was approved in December 2004. This made Scottish seats the same size as English ones (reduced the numbers from 72 to 58 in the process. Far from being centuries old, most of the seats were drawn in the early 80s and the figure of 72 was set in the late 40s by the way but lets not quibble.)

I've no idea which 2 SNP seats you allege are undersized as they're all in the 63000-66000 range compared to an average of about 70000. There is the anamoly of the former Western Isles seat with about 24000 but that has always been accepted as a special case for overrepresentation on difficult geographic grounds, much like Cumbria and Northumberland (which are in England by the way.)

In reality the part of the UK which is now overrepresented is Northern Ireland which should only have 16 seats if you were to have a quota of 70000 a la England. Maybe it's time for a "good old boundary redrawing" which incidentally will turn East Londonderry into a DUP-SF marginal and give Belfast 2 Sinn Fein MPs and 1 DUP/UUP marginal.

You are deluding yourself if you think that NI politics has that much importance - it's a backwater in Westminster terms and the only time that any attention gets paid to the place is after a typical act of mischief, a minority government needing NI party support or one of the good reverends doubtlessly entertaining fire and brimstone speeches.

"Why should we be held back just because IRA/SF won't give up their guns."

Why don't the DUP talk to Sinn Fein ? Why is it OK to take a podium with Billy Wright, and at the same time refuse to even have a modest exchange of views with Gerry Adams who unlike Wright actually has a few votes ?

"The democratic parties should be able to go on without them and SF can catch up later."

Can you explain how the DUP is democratic given it's past association with paramilitary organizations, Ulster Resistance and the third force ? Can youe explain how the Ulster Covenant is compatible with democratic and peaceful means?

"As far as sharing power with "fenians". What do you think happened on Thursday in Belfast City Hall? Is Pat Convery not a "fenian"?"

Why did it take the DUP nearly 80 years to vote for a Catholic ?

Davros misguidedly continued :

"Certainly that is an exaggerated misrepresentation that had been made to narionalists and the world outside of N.I. ad nauseam by the RM Propaganda machine Pat and it should indeed be addressed."

I am not a republican and my opinions on the link between unionism and paramilitarism are based not on exaggeration but 80 years of established fact. Every step of the way, unionists have threatened or even used force and thuggery whenever it has looked like they will not get their way.

There is nothing exaggerated about the DUP's association with paramilitarism. Everyone knows that the DUP and the loyalist paramilitaries have an understanding at the grassroots level. That understanding is what was at work when McCrea made his infamous move with Wright. Don't try to say that the DUP is completely free of paramilitarism - nobody with any sense will believe it.

Unionists have no business refusing to talk to people because of supposed democratic standards. That is the long and the short of it.

Oh dear Comrade Stalin - I didn't "continue" on from anything you quoted - I addressed a very specific comment made by Pat. That you have swallowed republican propaganda hook, line and sinker even though you proclaim yourself non-republican is your own concern, but the below shows that in your rush to justify yourself you rather ignored what was written :)

"80 years of established fact."

The DUP hasn't been in existance for 80 years Comrade!! Thank you for proving my point about nonsensical exaggerated claims made specifically about the DUP :)

I don't there is any exaggerated misrepresentation in the link between unionist politicians and loyalist paramilitary gangs.

The link below gives a good example of the way in which unionists are happy to associate with paramilitaries.

Sammy Wilson was happy to be guest speaker at a uvf/rhc rally in which the paramilitary trappings of the organisation are very,very visable.

Note the masked gunman on the flag and the dates in which the uvf where being remembered.

There are also the emblems of the red hand commando.
(thats the group that beat and murdered a young woman in a band hall in sandy row because they thought she was a catholic,,then stripped her body of clothes,stuffed her into a wheelie bin and dumped the body over the back wall of a derelict house)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/817946.stm

typo..

"I don't think there is any exaggerated misrepresentation in the link between unionist politicians and loyalist paramilitary gangs."

tra g,

Your smokescreen of relating past murders or criminality by the red hand commando's compared to recent criminality & murders by SF/IRA dont count.in helping to resolve the peace process. The RHC dont have 5 MP's 20 odd MLA,s and over a hundred or so councillors in local government like SF/IRA have. Yesterdays news in the US dont mention the RHC. They only mention the criminal culture in republican area's:

"N Ireland faces 'criminal culture': Reiss
Washington, DC, May. 27 (UPI) -- Parts of Northern Ireland suffer from a "criminal culture," a U.S. peace envoy told Congress.

Mitchell Reiss, the State Department's envoy to the Northern Irish peace process, told a hearing of the House International Relations Committee that some local political leaders had allowed a "culture of criminality" to develop in republican areas of Northern Ireland's minority Catholic community, the Belfast Telegraph newspaper reported.

Reiss said this culture had led to threats against the McCartney sisters while they were fighting for justice for their brother, Robert, who was murdered in a pub brawl in January. He said the McCartney sisters had told him that they were threatened and told they would be burned out of their homes."

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20050527-093726-5759r.htm

I see the DUP are expanding their musical repertoire to include blues as well as gospel:

http://www.revdoc.co.uk/

Rev Doc and the Congregation? Sounds like a Sunday night at the Martyrs!

I don't think there is any smokescreen being created.

Sammy Wilson is an M.P and a senior member of the DUP.

His party refuses to speak to Sinn Fein because of their links to the IRA

How can he personally justify this stance when he is happy to be guest of honour at a uvf/rhc commemoration.

The uvf have been maiming and shooting young people in ever increasing numbers in unionist areas since the election.

In attending events to commemorate uvf terrorists,Mr Wilson obviously supports the groups continued criminal actions.

tra g - of course you can find individual examples where DUP people have been on stages with Loyalists etc . Nobody is denying incidents such as you mention. The exaggeration is in the attempt to portray the DUP as having the same relationship with paramilitary violence as can be shown with Sinn Féin's links.

I'm not passing any judgement here on the rights and wrongs of past associations, merely addressing the misrepresentation.

There's an easy way to illustrate the Point-

A comparison:

what % of DUP councillors/MLAs/MPs have been behind bars ?

what % of Sinn Féin councillors/MLAs/MPs/TDs have been behind bars ?

The DUP are not squeaky clean, and they are IMO hypocrites, but it's ridiculous to try and represent them as being in the same league as Sinn Féin.

tra g - of course you can find individual examples where DUP people have been on stages with Loyalists etc . Nobody is denying incidents such as you mention.

Davros, what action was taken by the DUP against, to take an example, Willie McCrea for standing on a platform to lend support to Billy Wright?

None that I am aware of - for which I have repeatedly criticised the DUP - Paddy Matthews.
What has that got to do with the point I was making about the exaggeration of the extent of DUP linkage to paramilitarism ?

care to address the below ?

"what % of DUP councillors/MLAs/MPs have been behind bars ?

what % of Sinn Féin councillors/MLAs/MPs/TDs have been behind bars ?

The DUP are not squeaky clean, and they are IMO hypocrites, but it's ridiculous to try and represent them as being in the same league as Sinn Féin."

It's a bit rich that some contributors feel the need to dig back five years for a seriously tenuous (at best) attempt to link a DUP politician and the UVF. One doesn't have to rewind nearly so far to find much starker links between Sinn Féin, the IRA, and a truly ferocious murder.

My point is not to defend the DUP; but to highlight the rank hypocrisy of those who would hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil when it comes to the party they support, but jump on the most dubious of tales or reach for the history book to smear their opponents.

My approach -- hopelessly misread elsewhere by certain republican contributors, who have been left with only my anonymity to attack -- is 'a plague on both their houses'.

None of this is aimed at backing the DUP. I have a particular problem with that party's attitude to the gay community (which includes me). Paisley Jnr's recent contention that gay relationships (not even civil partnerships - just relationships) are "offensive and indeed obnoxious" was particularly frustrating at a time when homophobic violence is increasing.

Piety on the part of any political party (or their supporters) is very difficult to take.

what % of DUP councillors/MLAs/MPs have openly colluded with loyalist terrorists ?

The majority of the DUP leadership worked and associated with loyalist terrorists in the third force and ulster resistance

"The majority of the DUP leadership worked and associated with loyalist terrorists in the third force and ulster resistance."

Comments like this illustrate my point perfectly.

Dr Snuggles

I would have my suspicions that homophobia was a feature (not necessarily universal) in all the parties, just that the DUP (which is not universally homophobic either) tend to be less politically correct than the others. What do you think?

It doesn't matter how far back in time you have to go. The DUP have had links with loyalist paramilitaries for years and have their own private army in UR, because as far as i'm aware UR have not decommissioned any weapons yet.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

have their own private army in UR, because as far as i'm aware UR have not decommissioned any weapons yet.

is there any evidence that UR still exists ?

Bertie, I agree that homophobia is pretty ingrained in Northern Ireland society and, as such, is not exclusive to the DUP. In fact, it's one of the few issues that seem to unite devout protestants and catholics.

However, it's worth acknowledging that some parties have explicitly committed themselves to gay rights in public policy papers, including Sinn Féin, the SDLP and Alliance.

As for headmelter's comments, I hope the dichotomy between the first and second sentences is supposed to be a joke.

Should have said: "...second and third sentences..."

Whether there is evidence that the UR still exists is irrelevant.
what is relevant is the fact that their weapons are still unaccounted for and strong links existed between the UR and the DUP.

Presumably you are every bit as concerned about the "unaccounted for" weapons of the Official IRA. Doubt it somehow.

It's just no fun playing "spot the hypocrite" any more.

Whether there is evidence that the UR still exists is irrelevant.

It's very relevent to your claim that the DUP have 'their own private army'... that's present tense.....

I'm probably as concerned about the rusty guns of the stickies as I am about the unaccounted guns of the B specials.

There is also no evidence to prove the UR has disbanded or am I mistaken and they have become an old boys club devoted to polishing AK47's.

"There is also no evidence to prove the UR has disbanded..."

Or the OIRA, or the IPLO, or any other previously active fringe groups on a par with UR - which of course are very small beer compared to the Provos, whose weaponry is measured in tonnes.

Once again, (sigh), I'm not defending the DUP - merely pointing out the hypocrisy of those who refuse to hear a word of criticism of whatever party they happen to vote for. My criticism of the DUP is on the record in this thread.

Mind you, as much as I dislike the DUP, I don't quite see Peter Robinson and big Ian in clandestine meetings of the Ulster Resistance Army Council. Nor does the UR offer the DUP any political leverage. The comparison with Sinn Féin and the IRA is laughable.

Having said that, I do believe that the some of the DUP's social policy stances are dangerous and could even lead indirectly to the carrying out of violent acts (see my earlier post).

I'm doing my best to present both sides of the argument. Unfortunately, with some contributors, it's a case of "heads I win, tails you lose".

Narrow minds, blind spots and denial.

It's the DUPes link, past or present ,active or defunct, to paramilitarism which makes their protestations about not entering into govt with parties linked to violence lauhable.

Loyalist weaponry could also be measured in tonnes.

I do believe the IRA are on ceasefire and are not likely to return to war and could be perceived by many as a hinderance to SF rather than a tool to provide political leverage.

"I do believe that the some of the DUP's social policy stances are dangerous and could even lead indirectly to the carrying out of violent acts"

This I totally agree with but unfortunately the DUP fail to realise how their policies and attitudes solidify support within republcan areas for maintaining the IRA.

Or maybe they do.

Davros,

That comment of yours was hovering dangerously close to man-not-ball. Can you list the specific propaganda elements that you think I have swallowed ? If it helps at all, I don't read republican newspapers or get my information from republican sources. So where do you think I swallowed it from ?

"The DUP hasn't been in existance for 80 years Comrade!! Thank you for proving my point about nonsensical exaggerated claims made specifically about the DUP :)"

Now you're trying to quote me selectively to make me look like some sort of idiot, which I don't think is congruent with pursuing a constructive discussion. The comments I made about 80 years related to unionism as a whole, not just the DUP. I see very little difference between the DUP and UUP on these matters in any case.

Davros continued :

"what % of DUP councillors/MLAs/MPs have been behind bars ?"

"what % of Sinn Féin councillors/MLAs/MPs/TDs have been behind bars ? "

Why do you insist on engaging in this irrelevancy ? Can you explain to me why, for the purposes of testing democratic credentials of a party looking for a role in executive government, the distinction between ordering a murder and standing at a rally in support of a man who *orders* murders is at all meaningful ?

The reason why I think the DUP are in a similar league to Sinn Fein is because paramilitarism is sustained and tolerated under their watch. It is utterly irrelevant to make the distinction based on whether they play an active role in actually organizing the paramilitarism or not, or whether they have been prosecuted over same.

This discussion is about whether people who are associated with violence should be allowed in government. My point is that if we applied those requirements rigidly, neither the DUP nor the UUP would be suitable for government themselves. I repeat my original point which is that unionism has no business insisting on democratic credentials from others when it possesses none itself.

I don't disagree with your criticism of the DUP - but it does not sit well with your support for Sinn Féin, whose links with paramilitarism are - as the Irish High Court put it - "clear and obvious".

The contention that the IRA are somehow the defenders of social libertarianism is just bizarre. I would never wish to have my human rights placed in its care. Mind you, perhaps they might "offer" to shoot social conservatives..

For clarity, my above post is in response to headmelter's 3.33am comment.

Comrade Stalin, in response to your post..

I have been strident in my criticism of the DUP, but you cannot seriously believe that appearing at a UVF arch dedication, while claiming that you were there only to honour the fallen of the Somme is as bad as being imprsoned for blowing up the Old Bailey (injuring 200 people), escaping from prison (by gouging a screwdriver into a prison guard's head - a man who later died of a heart attack), and then wanting to become Minister for Policing or Justice.

Snuggles, the facts that you are pointing out with respect to the past actions of certain SF members can't be disputed. What can be disputed is this notion that the DUP are squeaky clean defenders of honour. They're not.

On a relative scale, standing beside a man who pulls a trigger is not as bad as actually being the man who pulls the trigger. But we are not talking about a relative scale here; we are talking about fitness for government. If we are to set a requirement that you cannot be in government without being committed to exclusively peaceful means, then unionism - particularly DUP unionism - falls short of that. The fact that they fall short is what matters, not that Sinn Fein are worse.

One or two members of the DUP may have done one or two suspect things but that is is.

People such as Jeffrey Donaldson, Nigel Dodds, Iris Robinson, Gregory Campbell and Iris Robinson have nothing to link them with terrorists.

Lets not forget John Taylor said if catholics have to be killed can it not at least be restricted to the south.

SDLP stood aside for Bobby Sands in FST and have been sympathetic to ira members on numerous occasions.

That comment of yours was hovering dangerously close to man-not-ball.

Comrade stalin - I would suggest that hiding behind threatening to dive means that you have lost the argument.

The comments I made about 80 years related to unionism as a whole, not just the DUP.

and as such were another sign that you are desperate to drag the discussion off Topic.
We are after all discussing the quantitative claim that The DUP - not Unionism in General - is as linked to paramilitarism as Sinn Féin.

You have further tried to corrupt the debate by twisting it into an attempt to disprove a claim that has not been made - thet the DUP have had NO links to paramilitarism - That has freely been conceded .

I'm leaving it at that as I don't have any interest in discussing this with someone who is unable or unwilling to debate in a fair and honest manner.

Comrade, I have not claimed that the DUP are "squeaky clean defenders of honour" (I don't think anyone on this thread has), in fact I have strongly criticised their unabashed homophobia as a contributory factor in the "so what?" attitude to violent attacks and intimidation of gay people in NI.

I'll even go one further and say that the almost rabid contempt of homosexuality among the DUP and other fundamentalists is a direct contributory factor to the frightenly high numbers of attempted suicides among young gay men.

My beef on this thread is with those who slam the DUP, but cheerfully vote for Sinn Féin.

Who's worse? Well, I concede that that is perhaps a facile question, and possibly one not worth getting into. One certainly does not have to be convicted in a court to be responsible for some nasty stuff. However, there are qualitative differences between the DUP and Sinn Féin with respect to relationships with paramilitary groups.

Sinn Féin is allied to a group that recently "offered" to shoot people involved in a murder (allegedly carried out by its own members). Surely you accept that it is just plain unreasonable that SF should be able to hang on to the IRA while taking ministerial seats. Otherwise, where is the incentive to end paramilitarism?

I do not believe that Ian Paisley Jnr is fit to serve on the Policing Board after his comments that gay couples are "immoral", "wrong", "offensive", "obnoxious" and "perverse". I believe that comments like that give succour to criminals.

I'm not going to make a hypocrite of myself by saying that Paisley Jnr should be relieved of his seat on the Policing Board, but give the nod to Sinn Féin politicians taking even higher office at the Executive Table - people who have given succour to the IRA for decades - until that threat is gone.

I think that this is a very important discussion and Davros I regret your decison to withdraw (not critisising just regreting). For what it is worth, i don't think that Comrade Stalin is being deliberatly unfair or being dishonest (and I speak as someone who has been savaged by him (unfairly to my mind) in the past).

I think it comes down to where you draw the lines and where you consider than those that may have crossed one line can judge those who have crossed a more significant line.

Personnally I consider SFIRA, PUP and UDP are all over the line which rules them out of consideration form government (in the case of the last two the lack of a mandate is also a bit of a hindrance, thank God). These parties do not condemn terrorism accross the board, (and accross the decade). The UUP and the DUP as parties do. Yes a few actions of a few individuals have been contrary to this position, not to the point of involvement with terrorism but of appearing to condone it (and I am glad the CS has pointed them out as I would have missed them otherwise). It is because I do not believe that these actions are necessarily typical of the individuals concerned (I good be deluding myself here) but more particularly does not represent a key element of what the party itself stands for. I am also convinced that many DUP key players utterly despise all the terrorists, whilst I do not beleive there is a single SF/IRA politician who despises the IRA wing.

I think that it is a valid position to take i.e. that the fact that these incidents happened and were not condemned by the parties makes the parties themselves not for for government, even if they are not as bad as SF/IRA UDP & PUP.

My personnal view is that this does not make them unfit for government, nor does it mean that they are not in a position to critisise SF/IRA UDP & PUP, but it does make it harder for them to critisise SDLP for sharing platforms with SF/IRA.

I know the point I am trying to make. I also realise that I am making a bit of a hash of articulating it. It has been a strange day. I have some things that I need to get done this weekend and I am avoiding doing them which is the main reason I am posting at all :0)

"Comrade stalin - I would suggest that hiding behind threatening to dive means that you have lost the argument."

It's amusing you talking about other people leaving the argument whenever you've decided to do the same. I did note that you conveniently avoided the question about my being inspired by republican propaganda. But at the same time you haven't been able to dispute anything I've said in the course of this discussion, preferring instead to talk about my supposed motives.

"and as such were another sign that you are desperate to drag the discussion off Topic.
We are after all discussing the quantitative claim that The DUP - not Unionism in General - is as linked to paramilitarism as Sinn Féin."

When discussing the DUP's close links to paramilitarism, I don't accept that mentioning the fact that unionism in general has always been closely linked to paramilitarism qualifies as changing the subject. It backs up my underlying point, which is that there are few if any players in the process here that can claim to be free from all terrorist linkage.

"You have further tried to corrupt the debate by twisting it into an attempt to disprove a claim that has not been made - thet the DUP have had NO links to paramilitarism - That has freely been conceded ."

Rubbish. The claim that the DUP has no terrorist links is implicit in all of the "only the democratic players should stay in the process" comments that run right through the thread above. It might have been freely conceded by you, but it hasn't been conceded by the DUP, neither has it been conceded by several people on this thread, so I'm afraid you're flatly wrong there.

I think that the debate corruption has come from yourself. You've consistently tried to suggest over several threads that the DUP's links to paramilitarism are somehow trivial because none of them have ever been arrested over them. You've refused to respond to the points I have made on that matter.

"I'm leaving it at that as I don't have any interest in discussing this with someone who is unable or unwilling to debate in a fair and honest manner."

The rattle out of the pram routine. By your own standards then you've lost the argument. Fair enough.

Roger added :

"People such as Jeffrey Donaldson, Nigel Dodds, Iris Robinson, Gregory Campbell and Iris Robinson have nothing to link them with terrorists."

Apart from joining a party with long ties of it's own to terrorism.

Personally if I were in a party and a fellow member was shown on TV standing on a podium with a mass-murderer, I'd either expect the guy to be kicked out or I'd leave immediately. The people that you've named obviously don't feel the same way. Perhaps they don't feel there was anything objectionable about what their colleague did.

Regarding John Taylor, I think the UUP are close to paramilitarism in the same way the DUP are, ie at arm's length. The UUP did after all vote for a UVF-linked Lord Mayor, even when the UVF had no ceasefire, in 1994, so they were quite keen to have a figure connected with paramilitarism acting as an envoy for the City of Belfast - how appropriate. On the subject of the SDLP, many of it's members are far too forgiving when it comes to paramilitary activity. As with the unionists, many in the SDLP believe that the IRA's actions were "understandable". I'd never try to deny that. The reason why I'm not talking about the SDLP is because they are not talking about excluding people from the process over their lack of democratic credentials. The DUP (and UUP) are.

Snuggles :

"Comrade, I have not claimed that the DUP are "squeaky clean defenders of honour" "

No you haven't, but that is the way other people seem to see it. The suggestions earlier in the thread about moving the process forward until SF catch up with democratic standards is obscene when the DUP itself has not caught up with those same standards.

"My beef on this thread is with those who slam the DUP, but cheerfully vote for Sinn Féin."

That wouldn't be me then. I don't vote for either SF or the SDLP, never have and never will. Both are far too closely identified with tribalism as well as paramilitarism for my liking. I doubt I'll ever forgive the SDLP for their little role in crashing the Brooke talks.

"Surely you accept that it is just plain unreasonable that SF should be able to hang on to the IRA while taking ministerial seats."

Yes, absolutely I do. Sinn Fein are not fit for government until the IRA disbands.

The trouble is that the same applies to the DUP. The DUP is not fit for government until it proves that it is committed to exclusively peaceful and democratic means. At the minute, I'm not convinced that it is.

As Roger observed, you can easily find flaws in the UUP and SDLP too, if you rigorously apply that standard. By the time you go through and exclude all the people who have shown poor commitment to peaceful means, you'll pretty much find you've excluded everybody except the Alliance Party.

Bertie :

"Personnally I consider SFIRA, PUP and UDP are all over the line which rules them out of consideration form government (in the case of the last two the lack of a mandate is also a bit of a hindrance, thank God). These parties do not condemn terrorism accross the board, (and accross the decade). The UUP and the DUP as parties do."

I do not think that words such as "condemn" from politicians are at all meaningful. Actions are. And the actions (or the lack thereof) are what expose the guilt of many of the parties.

"It is because I do not believe that these actions are necessarily typical of the individuals concerned (I good be deluding myself here) but more particularly does not represent a key element of what the party itself stands for."

I disagree. I think the parties we are talking about know how well paramilitaries are supported at the grassroots level, and deliberately avoid interfering with them. Furthermore, the parties we are talking about deliberately manipulate paramilitaries for their own objectives, which is exactly what the DUP figures were doing when they set up Ulster Resistance.

"I am also convinced that many DUP key players utterly despise all the terrorists, whilst I do not beleive there is a single SF/IRA politician who despises the IRA wing."

This tells me only one thing, which is that the Shinners are honest about their thuggish loyalties, where the DUP are not. DUP members obviously do not despise paramilitarism strongly enough to discipline party figures who are seen attending paramilitary rallies or commemorations, and DUP activists obviously do not despise paramilitarism enough to start campaigns to remove flags and murals. Those are the simple facts of inaction on paramilitarism that expose the reality; while they might not outwardly like it, a lot of unionists think that loyalist paramilitarism is understandable, an inevitable reaction to provocation from the IRA. That is the crux of the problem; violence being understandable.

It's amusing you talking about other people leaving the argument whenever you've decided to do the same.

I made my point. As you refuse to address the question that destroys your case then it seems pointless to waste bandspace.

Rubbish. The claim that the DUP has no terrorist links is implicit in all of the "only the democratic players should stay in the process" comments that run right through the thread above

breathtakingly dishonest. Post after post has acknowledged links - from UR to Wright to the Loyalist commission.

If you want to discuss something with me please limit your comments to addrerssing points I have made.

When discussing the DUP's close links to paramilitarism,

You and I were not debating whether the DUP have close links to paramilitarism - another attempt to distort.

Dr Snuggles

"I don't disagree with your criticism of the DUP - but it does not sit well with your support for Sinn Féin, whose links with paramilitarism are - as the Irish High Court put it - "clear and obvious".

The contention that the IRA are somehow the defenders of social libertarianism is just bizarre."

At no time have I demonstrated support for SF nor proclaimed the IRA were defenders of social libertarianism.
My point is the DUP have no right to take the moral high ground with their, self perceived, set of better democratic credentials.

"My point is the DUP have no right to take the moral high ground with their, self perceived, set of better democratic credentials."

But they believe they have the right because the majority of the Unionist electorate voted them in as the largest party at the last election.

"I made my point. As you refuse to address the question that destroys your case then it seems pointless to waste bandspace."

Davros :

I didn't spot a question that destroyed my case. Can you restate it ? Unless of course it is the question comparing convictions between DUP and SF members, which of course does not destroy the case at all - and I have addressed that precise point at length, pointint out that it is irrelevant. You don't have to go to jail or be wanted by the police to be a terrorist supporter. BTW, the word is "bandwidth".

G2:

"But they believe they have the right because the majority of the Unionist electorate voted them in as the largest party at the last election."

It's a shame when people have beliefs that fly in the face of reality.

It sounds a bit like we've become bogged down in the details. Perhaps I can restate things from my point of view from the start.

How can we establish, based on past behaviour, that our political parties are sufficiently committed to peaceful and democratic means such as to be allowed into executive government ?

"How can we establish, based on past behaviour, that our political parties are sufficiently committed to peaceful and democratic means such as to be allowed into executive government ?"

We can`t thus no executive govt (thank F*** for that)

Talking of hypocrisy and terrorism. What do you call an illegal(no UN resolution) invasion of a country that has left tens of thousands dead?

What do you call the legal trade of weapons to dictatorships like the Saudis?

What do you call profiting from murder on a vast scale? supported by all these anti vilolence politicians?

business as usual.

ULSTER IS SAFE WITH THE DUP!!!

Gone are the days of pushover unionists. In future when sinn fein/IRA want something ther'l be no Trimble and co to go to ....and the chances of getting what they want are slim! Its not that the DUP dont want an agreement, its that thy dont want a flawed agreement that admits terrioist linked parties into the goverment of our country. Our people have suffered at the hands of the IRA for years, now is the time to make Sinn Fein/ira suffer: no goverment for you until you go away!!!

More loyalist punishment attacks over the weekend and a horrendous attack on a 30 year old man in East Belfast last night.The latest victim was shot in the hands,knees and ankles.

The huge escalation in loyalist attacks over the last three weeks must be a major cause of concern for unionist elected reps.

Any response from the East Belfast M.P on the latest attack or the large number of attacks within his constituency ?

Stevie wonder,

I don't know why. But I just can't see it from your point of view.

G2:

"But they believe they have the right because the majority of the Unionist electorate voted them in as the largest party at the last election."

It's a shame when people have beliefs that fly in the face of reality

CS
That is the reality. The majority are not always right, but our western political systems are based on majority. like it or not.The DUP have a greater majority of MP's. MLA's and local councillors than any other party, all voted in by the citizens of NI.

The d'Hondt system (which helps minorties ) only works when an assembly is operating.
The reason our assembly is frozen (or near dead) is because Sinn Fein refused to abide by the rules of the GFA and decommision within the given time scale (two years).

To sign an agreement (to decommision in two years) and then reneage like SF/IRA have done, means the agreement is broken. Two Prime Ministers (UK & ROI) and a US President talked David Trimble & the UUP into signing the GFA, and trusting SF /IRA to abide by the rules of the agreement . Look were it got him and his party ?

This is the true face of reality. What 71% of the citizens voted for in 1998 is proof the majority vote was based on a piece of paper which was full of deceit, (like a dummy insurance policy sold to them by doorstep conmen) because Adams Magennis and SF/IRA were not truthful with the citizens of NI.

Paisley and the DUP are 100% within their rights to not trust Adams and SF/IRA.

'The reason our assembly is frozen (or near dead) is because Sinn Fein refused to abide by the rules of the GFA and decommision within the given time scale (two years)'

Are you sure about this. The reason for the assemblies suspension is open to interpretation, depending on which side of the fence you are standing on.

True Headmelter and the fence is too high for anyone to get a glimpse of the view on the other side.

I feel the situation here is intractable. None of the parties have really done their best to resolve things. I know some of you are party activists and will have thousands of examples of wonderful things your party has done but it's always 2 steps forward 3 steps back and there is no real committment by anyone to anything they just get everyones hopes up and well you all know the rest. Why did the Assembly fail? They let it fail, simple as that, no-one fought that hard for it because it was just a sideshow to them. So now in 2005 we have the DUP to contend with, treating the process like an Olympic High Jump event (constantly raising the bar and often without good reason except their own fear (?) of progress)and as for SF what can you say, so desperate to be the good guys in comfy jumpers but just can't shake off their knitted headgear. All the while these people are earning their fat salaries and securing their pensions for sitting on their backsides. Isn't it about time they did some bloody work!?

OK rant over - sorry it's a crap day - it's meant to be summer for goodness sake 1st June!! Crappy weather - Just one more reason to move to somewhere else.