I don't think there should be any problem about addressing a letter in Ireland, north or south, and stop writing once you've put down the county's name and, in the case of the North, the post code. there's no need to mention "Northern Ireland" at all or for that matter "Éire" or "Twenty Six County Free State".

of course be careful of Royal Mail bigots who will wilfully misdirect any mail which is addressed in Irish - even if it does have the post code affixed.

Don't stop at the N. Get rid of the Ireland too. ULSTER.

"of course be careful of Royal Mail bigots who will wilfully misdirect any mail which is addressed in Irish - even if it does have the post code affixed."

Judging by the service lately there are a few anti-english bigots too.

Might these 'bigots' not simply be involved in their own form of (albeit highly illegal) direct action?

Just to clarify, not putting the postcode on makes a lot of extra work for posties at all stages of the multilayered postal process, regardless of their personal position on the constitutional question.

Fair-deal
The problem with just ULSTER is that it doesn't work in the way that Wales and Scotland are particularly defined countries within the UK.

What about "66.6% ULSTER" or "20% IRELAND" or the "STATE of BALLYGOBACKWARDS"

Another two suggestions:

THE SICK COUNTIES or

ORANGELILYLAND

Anytime I'm sending post home from the Irish Republic/ Eire/ Ireland (whatever)I never put NI on the address. I find that UNITED KINGDOM does the trick. I suspect it always will.

be careful of Royal Mail bigots who will wilfully misdirect any mail which is addressed in Irish - even if it does have the post code affixed.

Evidence?

Is mail lost or delayed within the Irish Republic evidence of 'An Post bigots'?

What's the purpose of this campaign, btw?

Is it to ignore reality?

"Drop the N from Northern Ireland?"

Orthern Ireland.

Has a Ring to it.

"Is mail lost or delayed within the Irish Republic evidence of 'An Post bigots'?"

A wee bit of unionist whataboutery,ijp !!

Plenty of evidence, IJP, to support this claim, not least the acknowledgement by Royal Mail that they had to discipline staff members in Mallusk who were wilfully misdirecting mail in Irish even though it had the correct post code attached.

One such item came back to us with a message on the RM sticker - Queen's English only.

Sometimes there are delays with Irish language mail in the south but there's been no instance of abusive and sectarian comments on returned mail as there was in the north.

To try and brush such a problem under the carpet is to ignore reality, something which I expect of the Alliance Party whose language policy in the north ignores the reality of a significant Irish language community here for its own narrow political agenda.

I agree with the author of the letter, Gerry wotsisname...

We should consider bi-lingual road-signs in 'da Nort' - it's not fair that Mandarin speakers are treated like second class citizens! END THE DISCRIMINATION!

And someone should point out to Gerry that it was his Free State buddies who sought to politicise the word Ireland by commondeering the term for the South in its constitution in 1937.

Unionists fought as late as the 60s/70s to hang on to a shared belonging of the term, but despite this it increasingly became to be identified with the Republic and republicanism.

"A letter sent to someone in Newry, Co Down, Ireland will get there without fail, and without delay. "
And a letter sent to someone in Dublin, British Isles would probably get there too ;) unless, of course, some bigoted sectarian An Post worker was to deliberately lose it.

IJP - you asked if the purpose was to ignore reality... I suggest you read his closing statement:
"So come on, let’s forget about partition, no more N-word. We all live in Ireland."

beano

"And someone should point out to Gerry that it was his Free State buddies who sought to politicise the word Ireland by commondeering the term for the South in its constitution in 1937."

To De Valera, the constitution of 1937 was a constitution for the island of Ireland which he looked on as being the national territory so rather than to "commondeer" it for the south, which would have been partitionist thinking, it was designed to reflect the island as a whole. I also read somewhere that one of the reasons he neglected to use the word "Republic" was because he wanted the border removed first. By the way beano must you call the south the "Free State"? Don't tell me unionists are going to start doing this now?

"Unionists fought as late as the 60s/70s to hang on to a shared belonging of the term, but despite this it increasingly became to be identified with the Republic and republicanism."

Unionists during WW1 also called for, and eventually achieved, the creation of an Ulster division with its own symbols and identity so unionists can hardly claim a moral high ground on this matter...

I don't think too many will take this statement seriously after all Mark Durkan and many others in the SDLP have no problem with using Northern Ireland and neither do most catholics.

Even if a united Ireland was to occur this part would still be known as Northern Ireland.

Rather like vandalising the post boxes, it's pretty pathetic stuff this isn't it?

How does petty, paper republicanism actually help to unite the people?

By the way, how could a TRUE republican talk of crossing from the Six Counties into the REPUBLIC. Sure isn't the TRUE republic an, as yet, unattained entity?

Poor stuff.

"A letter sent to someone in Newry, Co Down, Ireland will get there without fail, and without delay. "

Most of NEWRY is in fact in county ARMAGH despite what the post Office says.

I have to post a letter to County Derry, Ireland tomorrow from County Dublin, Ireland. I need it to arrive Wednesday at the latest.

Is it not strange that if I were sending a letter from County Durham, England, to County Derry, Ireland, I could have more confidence that my letter would arrive on time?

SlackJaw,

Only if you were in pernikity mood.

Living elsewhere on the island or within NI, wouldn't you just put Co Derry or Co Londonderry and that would suffice.

People keep looking for mountains where even molehills often don't exist.

OC

I asked you for evidence which you gave me - go raibh maith agat.

Unfortunately you then wrecked it all by going off on a rant.

I have been arguing for a long time for a more meaningful Alliance policy on language and for the party's own site to at least offer an introduction in Irish. Tell me, do you think your rant helps or hinders me make that case?

"To De Valera, the constitution of 1937 was a constitution for the island of Ireland which he looked on as being the national territory so rather than to "commondeer" it for the south, which would have been partitionist thinking, it was designed to reflect the island as a whole."

So rather than claim the term Ireland for the Free State, he commondeered the whole island. Much better I'm sure. You can't have a constitution for a non-nation.

"By the way beano must you call the south the "Free State"? Don't tell me unionists are going to start doing this now?"

What country was he a resident of when he wrote the constitution? I assumed it was the Free State, was it not?

I'll see whether nationalists take up the dropping of the "Northern" before I decide whether to begin using the term Free State again ;) Until then I'll continue to use the name "the Irish Republic".

People keep looking for mountains where even molehills often don't exist.

You misunderstand me Gav. I just want my letter to arrive on time. I couldn't care less what address I have to put on the envelope. A decent cross-border postal service is a far more pressing need than dropping the N. Dropping the N or dropping the reference to the island altogether won't get it to County Londonderry any quicker from Dublin.

I would have no problem with nationalists dropping the 'N'. It would have at least 2 effects:

It would create a lot of extra, non-productive work for the postal system in the Free State (most foreign mail workers do not know the difference between NI and ROI [even US ones])

It would mean that northern nationalists would have to wait longer for their mail to arrive

Yeah, good idea, go ahead, drop the 'N'. Makes no difference to those who put on the proper address. It's your loss!

Looks like postal codes are going to be introduced in the Republic too.

Irish Independent report

registration bypass

Beano,
"What country was he a resident of when he wrote the constitution? I assumed it was the Free State, was it not?"

There appears to be an ongoing underlying thought process in unionism which seems to be of the belief that the British have the deciding say in Irish affairs.

They have no say. It is for the Irish people alone to decide what country and what type of country they are "resident" in not the British. That is what Ireland's hard-earned self determination is all about.

The democratically elected representatives of the Irish people decided on calling the stat Ireland in 1937.

This was accepted by everybody including the British (who I suppose could have started bombing us from a height to force us to change our minds) so get over it.

The Simply British Unionists of that time could have acted like a dog in a manger and demanded it not be called Ireland just in case they wanted to change cultural identity at some later date and maybe the British govt could have put the same pressure on as the Greeks did with Macedonia which led to that place being called the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" but they didn't.

Equally, unionists gave up on "Ulster" and chose "Northern Ireland".

The Simply British Unionists of 2005 should stop crying over spilt milk they didn't want to drink in the first place and live with they choices they make.

Is the wonderfully concise and explanatory "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" not enough for you guys?

I see no more difficulty with the Irish Government referring to its state as 'Ireland' than with the Luxembourg Government referring to its state as 'Luxembourg' or the Moldovan Government referring to its as 'Moldova', despite large chunks of 'Luxembourg' and 'Moldova' existing in neighbouring states. In case of potential confusion, I use 'Duchy of Luxembourg' and 'Republic of Moldova'.

Now, have we not got important issues to discuss?

See as I got a pice of promo material from Bosnia which was marked "Dublin, United Kindom"and no postcode for either country the ability of the Royal Mail and the Irish post office should not be disputed

"The democratically elected representatives of the Irish people decided on calling the stat Ireland in 1937."

My point is that as he was writing the constitution it hadn't yet been enacted (obviously) and the constitution that was currently in force was the Constitution of the Irish Free State! Can I spell it out any more clearly?

Equally, unionists gave up on "Ulster" and chose "Northern Ireland".

I think this fact demonstrates my point that Unionists wanted to hang on to their Irish identity. Something which has become impossible in later years because it has been hijacked by xenophobic republicans who despise everything British and are determined that being Irish and being British should be mutually exclusive.

IJP,

what do you expect the punter to do? Wait until there is a meaningful policy - and a genuine will to implement it - in Alliance ranks?

The Alliance always had this peculiar idea of language policy - they're all for cross community ideas but the other Irish community should be more like the British community in the north. it was prepared to tolerate intolerance of the language.

If the party gets its act in order it may find that it gets a better hearing. Until then it should be prepared to stand accountable for its failing before the public.

Sorry OC, but that's just a meaningless rant with nothing to back it up.

Progress comes about through consensus - and that means more listening, less demanding. You're far from the only one guilty of that, of course.

and that means more listening, less demanding.

Some example you are....

I gave you my opinion for what it's worth - apparently nothing as far as you're concerned. As long as you keep that line, you'll never change the Alliance Party.

When has the Alliance ever 'listened to' Irish speakers voice their concerns and taken them on board?

Give me an example....

Guys, try to keep the exchanges civil! IJP!!

"And a letter sent to someone in Dublin, British Isles would probably get there too ;) unless, of course, some bigoted sectarian An Post worker was to deliberately lose it."

Indeed, I know someone who routinely addresses letters by the old British names eg. Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire), Queens County, (Co. Laois), Kings County (Co. Offaly - i think) etc. And he finishes the address United Kingdom of Great Britain. All his letters actually do reach their destinations too, fair play to An Post!!

You're having a laugh, ref!!

OC - I've already thanked you for your opinion. But your postings above constitute one-sided rants, not evidence-based analysis.

I took great delight in receiving my first congratulatory message after election in Irish. But those of us trying to help the Irish language against the natural instincts of most our colleagues and constituents (Protestant, Catholic and Other) have a tough enough time of it without being ranted at.

If you want to get political about it, the simple fact is SF has abused the Irish language for political purposes, using it as an ethnic tool and directly associating Irish Language with Irish Republicanism ('every sentence is another bullet...' etc). So those genuinely concerned for the language's development and expanded development should look at the damage SF has done to any short-term hopes of Irish as a social unifier in NI and indeed across the island.

And if it's not a social unifier, it's an impossible sell. That's SF's fault, no one else's.

OC

Oh, and to answer your question: I myself am a not infrequent visitor to An Chulturlann, I spent much of last year working on a minority-language exchange (including numerous Irish speakers) and speak (and listen) at most minority-language events.

Like I say, there are a lot of good people out there trying to do good things, but politicization in a divided society is a death knell. Ulster Scots is going precisely the same way, unfortunately.

You really need to ask SF why it chose to politicize the language rather than use it as the bridge-builder it could have been.

I personally can't really see the point of having bi or tri-lingual road signs (the ulster scotch will want theirs too). Everyone in Ireland knows that Belfast means Belfast. I think that there are very few who would recognise Béal Feirste before Belfast.

Sticking with the road signs thing though. What would be a far more useful thing would be an all Ireland road naming scheme. I can't understand why no-one above has mentioned it yet. Why set off from Derry on the A, only for it to become the N2 after you leave Aughnacloy.

While I'm on the subject, when are the going to get around to scrapping the cart track that goes from the N.I. M1 motorway (a road that proves just how insular and bigoted the original Stormont govt. was) to the R.O.I. M1 to go to Dublin?

That should be the A5 from Derry to Aughnacloy above.

This is an interesting idea, which goes back to Sinn Fein(the origional one) policy of copying the Hungarian revolt from the Hapsburg Empire. This invovled acting as a state and completly ignoring the empire, thus eventually creating a legitimate argument for seperatism. I.E. if the people don't follow, then the government has no power etc. One must always remember that belonging to a nation is a daily plebiscite.

The parts that could actually make this work are already in place. The Royal mail i'm sure has a large no. of nationalists-no problem there. They already accept Derry instead of the offical(uk) Londonderry, and finally there would be no opposition from Blair and Labour as it would probably be seen as a "bridgebuilding exercise" if pushed by Bertie.

Also important thing to remember it's only post ;-), not beloved unionist land.

I'm no fan of SF on the Irish language, IJP, but at least they have a policy while the other parties, such as Alliance, don't. You can't condemn a party for having a policy on the language which recognises that there are Irish speakers in the north, and a growing humber of them, while ignoring the fact that your own party has no worthwhile policy.

I appreciate that you are a language enthusiast and your work for the Ulster dialect of the Scots language is to be commended but all I asked you for was your party's policy and contribution to the language.

Question - and genuinely. You above deliberately referred to the Ulster dialect of the Scots language. I'm not a linguist (obviously) but is Irish not, by the same reasoning, a dialect of Gaelic?

OC of course you can condemn a party when it's "policy" is to manipulate an aspect of (what was once a shared) culture for political ends.

beano

"So rather than claim the term Ireland for the Free State, he commondeered the whole island. Much better I'm sure. You can't have a constitution for a non-nation."

The Irish nation is not a 'non-nation'. It may be a non-state but that's a different matter. The issues over constitutionality are complex. Let's not forget the UK is a non-nation state without a constitution.:)

Orther Irelad
Take all n's out then.

Beano
"I'm not a linguist (obviously) but is Irish not, by the same reasoning, a dialect of Gaelic?"

No. Irish is Irish (or Irish Gaelic as some might call it), Gaelic is Gaelic (or Scottish Gaelic as some might call it, then there's Manx (or Manx Gaelic as some might call it). Irish itself is a language, comprised of numerous dialects, Scottish Gaelic came from Irish as it was introduced into Scotland awhile back. I suspect Manx came the same way. All three languages form the Gaelic/Goidelic/Q-Celtic branch of the Celtic languages. Although Irish a "Gaelic" language, this "Gaelic" is not a language itself, just a linguistic classification, although Scottish Gaelic is the language which generally uses the term "Gaelic" as it's own.
Just some useless info for you...

IJP, I agree with you there. Many of us Southern language activists do be giving SF the evil eye over their treatment of ár dteanga. Feckers.

Sorry Maca you've lost me. Perhaps I need to learn more about what distinguishes a language from a dialect but gaelic and gaelige always seemed very similar to me (I remember looking up something in Irish and ending up at the BBC's "Alba" section, that's all).

Anyway going a wee bit OT. YI, I shall resist the temptation to get into a debate about what constitutes a nation and simply point out that just because the UK is the only democracy (so far as I'm aware) in the world that doesn't have a single codified document called a constitution, does not mean there is no constitution. It's just a bit harder to piece together ;)

Israel also don't posses a codefied constitution but perhaps that isn't a great example ;)

Oilbhéar Chromaill

Could you point me in the direction of Sinn Fein's policy on Ulster Scots? And do you know why SF fails to recognise Chinese people as the largest group of non-English speakers in Northern Ireland? I'm genuinely curious - for some reason we never hear SF calling for road signs in Cantonese, despite the fact that more people have this as a first language than Irish.

For your information, Alliance's policy on languages is here.

Also of interest - from today's Indo:

Minister orders new post codes

We don't need them, An Post says - but Dempsey disagrees

A NEW nationwide postal code system is to be introduced despite warnings from An Post that the measure could prove "controversial".

It will mean that a code of numbers, or a combination of numbers and letters, will be added to every address.

The system is operated in most countries and has been used for many years in Britain and the North.

However, An Post is insistent that codes are not necessary in the Republic.

Details of the plan are due to be outlined by Communications Minister Noel Dempsey today when he is expected to confirm that the new system will be in place by January 2008.

Mr Dempsey recently reported to the Cabinet on the recommendations of a working group that called for a move to postal codes despite serious reservations from An Post. Its report convinced the Communications Minister that a code system will result in improved postal services and will benefit public utilities and businesses in accurately identifying their customers. Mr Dempsey intends to appoint a project management team shortly to work on the design and implementation of a post code system.

The working group found that private industry operators, including the express and bulk mail sectors, were fully behind a move to nationwide postal codes. They believe it is a cost-effective way of dealing with problems caused by the same address turning up in different parts of the country.

An Post told the group that it did not need a postal code system as it had its own technical postcode that facilitated address identification.

The company also warned about the cost of bringing in a new code system.

On the issue of how such a system might be run, the group recommended that a project team should consider different options for the ownership, management and funding of the public postcodes.

The project team will also decide on the kind of postal codes to be used - whether they will be purely numerical or a mixture of numerals and letters as used by the Royal Mail in Britain. It is reckoned it will cost up to €300,000 to complete the project.

A new postal code system is likely to enhance competition since it could be used by delivery services other than An Post.

The minister's decision to press ahead with this measure comes as the latest annual report for An Post shows that it recorded an after-tax profit of €6.5m for 2004. That result marked a turnaround of €45m since the previous year and broke a cycle of three successive years of escalating losses that had begun to threaten the viability of the company.

Nonetheless the company has warned its cost base is still too high.

Brian Dowling
Political Correspondent

When posting within the UK, there's no need to include "Northern Ireland" in any Northern Ireland address. The correct address should just state the house number, street name, postal town and post code.

If senders from outside the UK are upset by the name "Northern Ireland", they can write "United Kingdom".

Or do what I do

?? ??????
??????
South Armagh
Ireland

I find my mail arrives as quickly as others

"A letter sent to someone in Newry, Co Down, Ireland will get there without fail, and without delay. "

If it is sent without the post code, it will most likely be delayed.

Young Irelander

To De Valera, the constitution of 1937 was a constitution for the island of Ireland which he looked on as being the national territory ...

De Valera was wrong, then.

George

The democratically elected representatives of the Irish people decided on calling the stat Ireland in 1937.

Actually, it was the citizens of Southern Ireland who decided.

Beano
"Perhaps I need to learn more about what distinguishes a language from a dialect but gaelic and gaelige always seemed very similar to me"

Language vs dialect is often about politics. Swedish, Danish, Norwegian & Icelandic are all very close, and not a million miles from German. These "languages" are actually linguistically closer than many "dialects" of some of the African languages, for example.

As for Irish: Irish and Gaelic are quite close, both come from Old Irish but have diverged slightly over the years.

What's the difference between "Irish" and Gaelic, maca?

"What's the difference between "Irish" and Gaelic"

A google search would have given you the answer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differences_between_Scottish_Gaelic_and_Irish

willowfield

"De Valera was wrong, then."

Perception is everything!

Campaign? I've always addressed letters to Ireland,and sometimes Tir Eoghain,Ireland although for inclusivity for all 'dialects' i may start addressing this as 'Ma wee huis,Tir Eoghain,Ireland'
...
Rebecca,
Does this character refer to the lovely city of York as Jorvik or do they desist from this practise outside of an Irish realm?

Gonzo, if you want to find out what SF's policies re Ulster Scots and the Chinese community in the North are, ask them yourself. I'm not their mouthpiece.

My own opinion is - and it's shared by linguists including, if I'm not mistaken IJP - is there is no such language as Ulster Scots - there is, however, an Ulster dialect of Scots. "Ulster Scots" is a political fantasy and has been created to be some sort of cultural counterbalance with the Irish language in the north. So the fact that SF don't buy into that is to their credit.

The question about non English speakers is not relevant to this discussion. We're talking about indigenous languages and dialects.

The fact that people as a matter of choice speak Irish, even if they are fluent in English, doesn't dilute in any way their rights to a proper service in the language of their choice. this is a typical attitude of civil servants and other ignoramuses who think that everybody should take what they get and not complain. Irish is a language of Ireland and is spoken by a substantial minority of people despite all attempts by media experts to claim otherwise - Irish speakers living in Ireland, whatever part, should be entitled to a service in their chosen language.

Alliance supports the promotion of the Irish language and the work of Ultach Trust in widening its appreciation and use throughout the whole community.

Wow a full three and a half lines - that's some policy, Gonzo. It doesn't even go as far as endorsing the committments undertaken in the Good Friday Agreement re the language and apparently the support is conditional on the language being made more appreciated throughout the whole community. We're all for that but what is the Alliance Party doing to promote the interests of the community which actually speaks the languege?

Willowfield,
firstly, welcome back that's if you ever went away.

"We, the people of Éire...."

That's the Irish people to me. Anyway, you're simply British and proud as punch of it so why should it bother you what the Irish call their country as long as it isn't "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", which is taken.

By the way, "Southern Ireland" is one of the names the British tried to foist upon the Irish people back in 1920 and you using it in 2005 is, to me, the equivalent of calling Lithuania a Soviet Republic.

Out of date and not a little offensive to democrats who respect the right of small nations to exist. You know, like Belgium.

Would you believe they tried to create a southern House of Commons too to usurp the democratically elected parliament of the Irish people but fortunately they failed absolutely.

Stormont lasted fifty years though.

OC

You are correct re Ulster Scots.

It is self-evident that Alliance, as a pro-Agreement party, supports the commitments in the Agreement. I personally raised, among other things, the failure to extend TG4 with ministers on several occasions, including face-to-face meetings, and publicized this fact.

But any underlying suggestion that the language's development (or lack of it) has anything even remotely to do with the breakdown of political institutions, social divisions and pending economic collapse is just irresponsible nonsense. I'm not saying you're suggesting this, just that as a political party there are significant priorities ahead of minority language development - safer streets, safer roads and safer hospitals; better schools, better public transport, better environment; etc etc.

For every one person hugely enthused by a minority language, there are 10 who'd rather see not a penny of public money spent on them. It's always worth remembering that (a lesson Ulster Scots has not learned).

IJP

There's no doubt that people want adequate resources devoted to health, education, safety on our streets etc - I have no quarrel with that or no intention to seek a diversion of those funds to the Irish language or the arts etc.

However money wasted - and we're talking billions here - on military misadventures in Iraq and elsewhere would be better spent on health, education, safety on our streets AND the Irish language and the arts.....

We, the people of Éire...."

Has better ring than the reality

We, some of the people the people of Éire...."

OC

Agreed 100%!

(And indeed there's lots of money wasted on minority languages which should instead be spent wisely on minority languages.)

This Slugger's great, isn't it...?!

maca

"What's the difference between "Irish" and Gaelic"

A google search would have given you the answer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differences_between_Scottish_Gaelic_and_Irish

I see. You're referring to Irish Gaelic as "Irish", and Scots Gaelic as "Gaelic". That's just stupid. Both are Gaelic!

Dear me, maca.

Young Irelander

Perception is everything!

It's not.

George

"We, the people of Éire...." That's the Irish people to me.

Right. Well, whatever you say, George, it doesn't alter the fact that the 1937 constitution was adopted, not by "the democratically elected representatives of the Irish people", as you claimed, but by the citizens of Southern Ireland.

Anyway, you're simply British and proud as punch of it so why should it bother you what the Irish call their country as long as it isn't "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", which is taken.

First, it's only the Southern Irish I'm talking about. Second, it bothers me because by stealing the name "Ireland" it causes offence to me as an Irishman who lives in Northern Ireland because it implies jurisdiction over Northern Ireland. It's also inaccurate and misleading.

Out of date and not a little offensive to democrats who respect the right of small nations to exist. You know, like Belgium.

It's out-of-date to imply jurisdiction of another country.

Willow

"That's just stupid. Both are Gaelic!"

Indeed both are 'Gaelic languages' but the Irish language is normally called Irish and the Scottish Gaelic language is normally called Gaelic.

This too difficult for you Willow? How many times have I explained it to you and it still hasn't sunk in? Dear me, Willow.

Willowfield

Speaking of the Low Countries, does the name 'Luxembourg' imply jurisdiction over southern Belgium, in your opinion?

Willowfield

Speaking of the Low Countries, does the name 'Luxembourg' imply jurisdiction over southern Belgium, in your opinion?

Willowfield

Speaking of the Low Countries, does the name 'Luxembourg' imply jurisdiction over southern Belgium, in your opinion?

maca

Indeed both are 'Gaelic languages'

Yes. So it's stupid to reserve the name "Gaelic" only for Scots Gaelic!

but the Irish language is normally called Irish and the Scottish Gaelic language is normally called Gaelic.

Only in recent years has Irish Gaelic been mostly called "Irish". It used more commonly to be called "Gaelic", and still is called "Gaelic" as well as being called "Irish". Both languages are called "Gaelic" when there is no possibility of confusing the two (i.e. in the context of Ireland alone or Scotland alone).

IJP

Speaking of the Low Countries, does the name 'Luxembourg' imply jurisdiction over southern Belgium, in your opinion?

Possibly, yes.

"Campaign? I've always addressed letters to Ireland,and sometimes Tir Eoghain,Ireland although for inclusivity for all 'dialects' i may start addressing this as 'Ma wee huis,Tir Eoghain,Ireland'
...
Rebecca,
Does this character refer to the lovely city of York as Jorvik or do they desist from this practise outside of an Irish realm?"

Tir Eogain, thats Donegall isn't it from when it was Northern Ui Neill territory?

Good point about using the old Hiberno Norse name for York, but I don't think he knows anyone in York to write to. You could have lots of fun with that, using the old Roman names, the old Saxon names as well as the old Norse names.

However if I was to be very pedantic, I would point out that Northumbria and York were only Viking territory for a century, the old placenames in Ireland were around alot longer, only changed within the last century and much more established than the Scandinavian names in parts of England were.

Since you mentioned the Vikings, do you think all the Scandinavian town names in Ireland should be changed also? The Anglo-Normans got rid of most of the Vikings in the 12th century but in todays Ireland many names are only a very rough translation ie. Waterford, Wexford, Carlingford, Strangford, Dalkey, Eyrephort, Athlunkard etc

Willow
"Yes. So it's stupid to reserve the name "Gaelic" only for Scots Gaelic!"

Not at all, Gaelic was originally used for Scottish Gaelic hundreds of years ago. And it's still more commonly used for that today.

"Only in recent years has Irish Gaelic been mostly called "Irish"."

Define "recent". We have never called it anything else (during my lifetime).

"It used more commonly to be called "Gaelic", and still is called "Gaelic" as well as being called "Irish". Both languages are called "Gaelic" when there is no possibility of confusing the two"

which doesn't change the fact that Irish is the correct name for the Irish language.

Acquaint yourself with ISO-639.2

IJP
Is there a "standard" which linguists use defines correct nomenclature?

maca

Not at all, Gaelic was originally used for Scottish Gaelic hundreds of years ago.

It was also used for Irish Gaelic!

Define "recent". We have never called it anything else (during my lifetime).

In my experience, in the last 15-20 years. "You" may not have called it anything else, but many others have.

which doesn't change the fact that Irish is the correct name for the Irish language.

Gaelic is also a correct name.

What's your problem with the name "Gaelic" anyway? Are you in denial that the language is a Gaelic language or something?

A bit silly, if so. The name "gaeilge" should give it away!

Willow
"What's your problem with the name "Gaelic" anyway?"

The correct name is "Irish".
There's nothing wrong with the term itself, it's the way it's used, it has/is often used to cause offense.

"The name "gaeilge" should give it away!"

Don't use this arguement again, it will make you look like a moron.
"Gaelic" does not come from "Gaeilge" even if they sound somewhat similar.

Willowfield

At least you're consistent, but I've never ever come across a Walloon who is troubled by the term 'Luxembourg' to mean specifically the Duchy.

To be fair, I guess the Duchy has no claim to the rest of Luxembourg.

Maca

I agree with you.

Every linguistics book I own (some dating back to 1987), from Crystal's Encyclopedia of Language to Hodder and Stoughton's Teach Yourself guides, uses 'Irish' for 'Irish Gaelic', and 'Gaelic' for 'Scottish Gaelic'. The same generally applies in German (including the textbooks I have) with 'Irisch' and 'Gaelisch'.

This is not 'political correctness' or some cunning Nationalist political plot, it's simply linguistic terminology.

It's not ideal of course (because what happens if you want to refer to 'Gaelic' broadly), but terminology rarely is. Is 'American' really appropriate for someone from the United States, or even 'British' for someone from the UK (but not necessarily from Britain)? But that's the way it is.

do they not called Scots Gaelic, Gallic?

Rebecca
"do they not called Scots Gaelic, Gallic?"

I must point out that it is "Scottish Gaelic" not "Scots Gaelic". I got a 'virtual' slap in the nose from a Scot for that one before. ;)

Gallic? Don't know...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic

IJP
Thx for the info.
Do linguists use ISO 639 or any such standard?

IJP,

As a citizen of the USA, I can tell you that we love to be called Americans. Everyone else in this hemisphere will just have to find another name! Also please note that here in America (sic), we use the term "Gaelic" to mean "Irish."

BTW, I'm thinking of changing my name to Snarky Yank. What do y'all think?

Ian - when I lived in Scotland I heard people talk of others having 'the Gaelic' and 'the Gallic'.
The impression I got was that highlanders called it the former and lowlanders and borderers called it the latter.

Rebecca

In both cases it is spelled 'Gaelic' ('Gallic' refers to things pertaining to France).

The pronunciation does differ.

Maca

I couldn't tell you about standards in this case. There is a linguistic standard (it'll be somewhere on the Internet) with codes for each language.

But never forget, standards are a result of common usage, not the other way about.

IJP
"But never forget, standards are a result of common usage, not the other way about."

Ok.
The only relevant standard I know of is ISO 639 but that defines language codes rather than names. Still they use the right nomenclature for Ga & Gd.
Note that Ulster Scots is not on the list, note that Klingon is. Something wrong there..!

Maca

Good find! That is indeed the list linguists use.

The list is entirely correct - Scots is listed, of which Ulster Scots is a variant.

IJP
"Good find! That is indeed the list linguists use."

Not really a 'find' as such, languages codes are needed for non-english websites so ive been before.

"The list is entirely correct - Scots is listed, of which Ulster Scots is a variant."

Of course. Brain re-engaged. ;)

"I must point out that it is "Scottish Gaelic" not "Scots Gaelic". I got a 'virtual' slap in the nose from a Scot for that one before. ;)"

hmm, so its something people feel strongly about then, the only scotttish-gaelic/scots-gallic speaker i have ever spoken to referred to it as scots-gallic. Maybe it is different areas of Scotland use different terminology.

Is calling the Irish language gaelic offensive? I met someone who found me saying Gaelic when referring to the Irish language offensive. I think people might be a bit too sensitive.

by the way maca, have you ever heard of a gaelic language called "Erse", it was a Times crossword clue that I didn't get yesterday!!

Rebecca - AFAIK Erse is a collective for any of the Gaelic languages in this archipelago

Rebecca
"the only scotttish-gaelic/scots-gallic speaker i have ever spoken to referred to it as scots-gallic"

I don't know. I called it Scots Gaelic one day and was corrected.

"Is calling the Irish language gaelic offensive?"

I know people who take offence. The problem is that those in the 'anti-Irish movement' have always used "Gaelic" to try to demean the language, so it's a 'dirty word'

"have you ever heard of a gaelic language called "Erse"

Of course. It's what lowland Scots once called Highland Gaelic. In the 19C the sense shifted to Irish so now Erse generally only refers to Irish. It's an archaic word and considered derogatory.

Interesting thing about Erse & Gaelic, Erse was used by lowland Scots to demean Scottish Gaelic, to characterise it as foreign to Scotland. Erse was later used to demean Irish by the Scottish and now Gaelic is often used to demean Irish. ;)

maca

"What's your problem with the name "Gaelic" anyway?"

The correct name is "Irish".

So you say, but "Gaelic" is also correct.

There's nothing wrong with the term itself

So why get your knickers in such a twist?

it's the way it's used, it has/is often used to cause offense.

Really? When was this?

Don't use this arguement again, it will make you look like a moron. "Gaelic" does not come from "Gaeilge" even if they sound somewhat similar.

So where does it come from?!

"Most of NEWRY is in fact in county ARMAGH despite what the post Office says"

part of Belfast (the odyssey arena onwards i think) is in county down yet the entire city is in Antrim according to the post office :-)

I know somebody who used to work in the sorting office in Dublin - when he gotr letters addressed to Kingstown he used to return them to the sender with "Not in this country. Try Jamaica." attached.

I remember when I lived in Drogheda, I was trying to get the number for Magee Campus, and obviously living in the South, I told the operator 'Derry'. She replied that there was no number listed, so I thought I would ask one of my Southern mates to ring and ask..just in case the accent was making me misunderstood. Anyhow, the mate returns about an hour, absolutely furious... it turns out he just had a massive argument with this operator, his supervisor AND their manager..the reason? It turns out that they couldn't find Magee Campus, Derry on their system.. only Magee Campus, LONDONderry!!

Made me laugh..

This is easy…………….isn’t a race the simplest solution to some of the points above relating to An Post and Royal Mail and their understanding of different languages and addresses….

Mail a letter from Dubln to someone in, say Tyrone / Tir Eoghain, and address it in Irish but with a postal code. Note, on this site, the date of mailing and the date of receiving the mail. At the same time mail something similar from Belfast addressed to Queens county (Laois – altho I wouldn’t say that to a fella from Laois) or to Kingstown / Dun Laoirghe (a lot of whose resident don’t mind the old handle). You could also mail one from London to either Tyrone without including the Northern prefix and/or one to Dublin with something deemed incorrect.

If everyone agrees to this little bit of a fun exercise (sorry that it seems very Blue Peter-ish) then the betting can begin. I’d nominated MFealty as an adjudicator and I’ll handle any money that needs to change hands!??!

"only Magee Campus, LONDONderry!!"

Last time I looked its official name was still Londonderry, so what's the problem?

Conas atá tú?

Interesting link from Willow on the differences between Irish Gaelic and Scotish Gaelic

This is Irish/ Gaelic? Conas atá tú?

This is similar to Castillian.: Como estas tu? Does anyone know if Gaelic had Castillian influences?

theres actually a townland in western fermanagh that has found its way into the 26 counties jurisdiction for the last 83 years--but Im not telling.

YOU ARE NOW ENTERING FREE FERMANAGH

theres actually a townland in western Fermanagh that has found its way into the 26 counties jurisdiction for the last 83 years--but Im not telling.

YOU ARE NOW ENTERING FREE FERMANAGH !!

Mario
"Conas atá tú?" is Irish. In Gaelic you might say "Ciamar a tha thu?"

"Does anyone know if Gaelic had Castillian influences?"

No idea.
One thing I believe Irish has in common with Spanish is the verb "to be". I believe you have two words for this in Spanish? Same in Irish.

"a townland in western Fermanagh that has found its way into the 26 counties"

Come on martin, Im interested to know this townland... I live on the western border and i have never heard of a 'lost' townland.

Fermanagh young unionist,

Its there alright, dont worry about it though its very small with about 3 families living in it they are happy with its current status, so why make a fuss -its in the general area of Pettigoe/Beleek/--wont tell you any more though not least because I wouldn't be able to spell it--I'm not all that far from it myself--maybe sometime we can arrange a viewing if I have your word as an Ulsterman that it remains our secret.

I think it occured because of dodgy maps-I know of a field in tyrone that is actually in 3 different townlands--sometimes rivers which are often used as natural boundaries change course over long periods of time--thats a hint by the way.

"with about 3 families living in it they are happy with its current status"

Do they call themselves Irish or British then?

"Pettigoe/Beleek"

Thats not far from me either,its a small world! That is a big area though so could you be a little more specific? I doubt it is top secret but I am just a little bemused at how it could be possible.

They seem to use both nationalities as a flag of convenience-one of the families was heavily involved in a sheep headage grant scam on both sides of the line a few years ago-they all seem to get on ok not sure what they would officially describe themselves as--Fermandonega-ese perhaps---how far are you from DRomore roughly?

"how far are you from DRomore roughly"
I havent a clue, how far is Belleek from Dromore?

I guess neither of us wants to go doing a boundary commission re-run with wellies and flash -lamps tonight--but sometime in the future i could possibly meet up with you in Irvenstown thats roughly half way.

Or would Ederny or Lack be more suitable?