Saw that yesterday and was going to post a story about it on EU, but having read the (non)story, it seemed just too tabloidy. Story from nothing. He played for a couple of years and had to stop. Now he's joined a completely different out of date organisation from the one he was in then.

Hardly something new

Billy Wright once played Gaelic football as well

beano you really do talk some tripe dont you.

"out of date organisation "
yet currently the no.1 unionist party in northern ireland.

also regarding your website everything ulster where are donegal cavan and Monaghan?

Yes they are the no. 1 party. I fail to see how being the number 1 party in a country as backward as Northern Ireland shows they are not out of date.

Donegall, Cavan and Monaghan are in the Republic of Ireland just over the border from Northern Ireland - but you'd be better asking your geography teacher than me.

no im sure chris gaskin will remind you what counties are in ulster.
you mentioned nothing of the state that is northern ireland you are talking of the irish provence of ulster.

Well surely public opinion judges them out of date or not and as yet public opinion is most definitely with the DUP.
the public are not stupid they will not vote for an 'outof date' party

Beano - just to expand your geographic knowledge - there are 4 provinces in Ireland - Connaught, Leinster Munster & Ulster. Ulster has 9 counties including the 6 that make up N.I as well as Cavan, Monaghan & Donegal.

Beano

Queens Unionist is right

Everyone knows Ulster has 9 counties and not 6

Q-U
I'm slightly hesitant at pointing this out, but while you merrily make points about Ulster I need to remind you that both unionist parties use 'Ulster' in their full titles without, I'm assuming, claiming to speak for Cavan, Monaghan or Donegal. (that's one L beano unless you are speaking about a road in Belfast).

la Dolorosa

"Ulster has 9 counties including the 6 that make up N.I as well as Cavan, Monaghan & Donegal"

The 9 county Ulster you describe is only one historical definition.

Although I always have a sympathy with anything a Queen Elizabeth approved ;).

"Q-U
I'm slightly hesitant at pointing this out, but while you merrily make points about Ulster I need to remind you that both unionist parties use 'Ulster' in their full titles without, I'm assuming, claiming to speak for Cavan, Monaghan or Donegal. (that's one L beano unless you are speaking about a road in Belfast). "

yeah i know but i guess i was using it as a point scoring exercse against beano.
I cannot help the names of the 2 parties or 3 if you include Ulster Democratic Party [if they still exist??]
i dont agree with the names of the parties but i guess its easier to say DUP than DNIP?
I dont know i didnt found either of them and somehow i think a name change vote would go against me ??

Yerman - yes I have also found it quite curious the liberal (mis)use of the word/term "Ulster" when people mean/refer to N.I. - as most of us know they are 2 different entities.

"i dont agree with the names of the parties but i guess its easier to say DUP than DNIP?"

Why would you find it harder?

DUP stands for Democratic UNIONIST Party not Democratic ULSTER Party therefore it would not need to change it's name.

I do hope your point was a slip of the tongue ;)

If the 26 county entity can call itself "Ireland" why can the 6 county entity not call itself "Ulster " ?
It's all arbitrary. Louth was at one time in Ulster, and there have been times when there were 5 provinces.

Beano is right - there's no contradiction in Our No' One parties being out of date- in fact it's a positive advantage.

To the inane, boring, predictable whinings about the use of the term Ulster, I direct you to the point in Davros's post above, which I have made before, and add that if republicans can refer to it as "the (occupied) six counties/North of (the island of) Ireland" - well I'll call it what I like.
It's sad that the debate so frequently has to sink to this level.

"the public are not stupid"
Are you sure?

oopsie chris i meant UDUP...
blushes at his completely stupid lack of thought!
NIDUP doesnt roll of the tongue as much as UDUP

IMO...

still red after horlicks of a flippin error..damn work distracting me.
**makes excuses!**

Chris Gaskin / Q_U
Obviously the Ulster Unionist Party uses the name, but the full name of the DUP is actually the Ulster Democratic Unionist Party.

yerman

Where or when does it use that title?

see above yerman!!
what a mistake and i assure you i do know the full name of the party i support!

queens_unionist

LOL, glad to hear otherwise that would leave you in a very embarassing position ;)

that is the official title gaskin not used very often but it is the title..
see contact details in this document...
also should make good reading for you
http://www.dup.org.uk/pdf/DupEducation.pdf

LOL, glad to hear otherwise that would leave you in a very embarassing position ;)

it would leave me in a very confusing situation in the polling booth...if abbreviations werent used!

"also should make good reading for you"

How so?

Davros,
there is no such entity as a six county "Ulster", which encompasses 9 counties, but there is a state called "Ireland". Check out the EU, UN etc. etc.

As I said countless times, if the good people of NI wanted to call the place Ulster, then why didn't they? They had the chance. Or did Westminster not even allow that?

They chose "Northern Ireland" instead because they wanted Ireland in the name. You make your bed, you lie on it.

George - please answer the question.

If the 26 county entity can call itself "Ireland" why can the 6 county entity not call itself "Ulster " ?

You are doing a Willowfield.

"You are doing a Willowfield"

Where is the old fella these days?

I was wondering that meself Chris. Place just doesn't seem the same without him!

George

They used the term Ulster in a range of public bodies. In public discourse Ulster predominated over the use of the term NI.

Ulster has had many definitions. The 9 county one you advocate with a trollish tendency is simply one of a number. The Elizabethan provincial designation has no more validity than any other. The term Ulster has been applied to the top half of Ireland, something approaximating to 10, 9, 6 and 2.

CG

Last i heard willowfield had gotten a new job, this seems to have conincided with his blogging demise. (However, the debate on here has been getting a bit sterile lately so knowing him it is pefectly possible he has just given up on it.)

Davros

``If the 26 county entity can call itself "Ireland" why can the 6 county entity not call itself "Ulster"?

It can't. Both are wrong but, to introduce a hackneyed old cliche, two wrongs don't make a right. Notwithstanding a parallel misuse of nomenclature, conflating NI with Ulster is just flat out wrong.

`Ulster' is a technique used to circumvent the revealingly artficiality of `Northern Ireland', to suggest a natural wholeness. Unionists know that `Northern Ireland' sounds like something arbitrary and made-up (hey, it's a fantastically accurate name - except of course that there's a bit of the south that further north. Jesus - how incoherent can you get?) so we get the claim on Ulster.

Except Ulster and "Ulster" are two different things. Ulster is an Irish province of nine counties. `Ulster' is a state of mind indulged in by some Irish Protestants. Geographically it exists mainly east of the Bann, a densely populated chunk of the northeast. It also has outposts in other areas. "Ulster" is the name given to a people, for want of a better one.

It may be inaccurate, but it's the best of a bad bunch. Yes, it doesn't have geographical coherence. Yes, only a minority of people in Ulster buy into "Ulster". Yes, the word doesn't even have a collective plural. Yes, this refusal by the English language to recognise it as disctinct means that lots of organisations (Ulster Unionists, Ulster Musuem, Ulster Television, Ulster-American folk park etc) are reduced to using dreadful grammar to keep the ruse going. But what can you do? Acknowledge that the Emperor is bollock naked? Never! Never! Never! Never!

``It's all arbitrary. Louth was at one time in Ulster, and there have been times when there were 5 provinces.''

Parts of modern-day Louth were considered part of Ulster during the periods of warlord rule covered in mythology. I'm astonished that you would consider this a substantive argument though. After all, there was no such thing as `Louth', or even counties, in the period to which you refer. Only regional strongmen, Gaelic armies and their territories.

However good queen Bess brought a bit of order and geographical coherence to the place - at least a thousand years after the period to which you are referring - and fair play to her. Proof positive that every cloud has a silver lining. That organisation of Ireland into counties and provinces was so successful and common-sense that they are still powerful entities in people's psyche here. The counties are still the unit of local government in the south and were in the north until 1973. (Their replacements, our current 26 council areas, have gained no such currency. When'd you last hear anyone say they were a Newry & Mourne man?)

I make the point again: it's only a very small minority of people in Ulster who do not recognise Ulster as nine counties. Even those who regularly use the term to mean the wee six acknowledge this point. People in Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan have as much right to use is as people in Antrim, Down and Armagh - and do.

So even if we allow that definitions are transitory, the question is: who are you to tell a Cavanman that he's not an Ulsterman too?

How would you react if a Cavanman told you he had decided that the definition of Ulster had changed and you were out?

(Of course that would just be plain ridiculous, wouldn't it?)

The other problem with stating that we chose NI to keep Ireland in the name was that under the proposals for a NI there was to be a Southern Ireland. Since they changed their name to Ireland, in an arrogant and imperialistic move akin to what republicans oft criticise the British for, the term Northern Ireland is often confused for something more like northern England than, for example North Korea or Western Samoa (which interestingly did something similar, changing its name to Samoa despite the existence of an eastern or American Samoa).

Just to point out the blatantly obvious to the overwhelmingly ill-informed: the vast majority of people in Ireland view Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal as part of the nine (historical and contemporary) counties of Ulster. The people of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal believe themselves to be in Ulster. Most people in Norn Iron west of the Bann believe Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal to be in Ulster. Many unionists of the better educated variety hold this contention too.

Does Beano argue that our delusory and mystifactory unionist brethren, as well as artificially revising and reappropriating the sovereignty of Ireland to suit their own sectarian ends, should be allowed tell the vast majority of people on the island what (historically and today) "Ulster" comprises. Maybe they should be allowed rename America "China" and France "the land of toads". This is another example of unionism's affinity with zionism - the part about wanting a land without a people for a people without a land and all the claptrap about being a chosen people. Political neurosis one might call it.

OK Billy I'll run this one past you :

If "Ireland" can be both a 26 county and a 32 county ( plus islands) entity , why can "Ulster" not be both a 6 county and a 9 county entity ?

How would you react if a Cavanman told you he had decided that the definition of Ulster had changed and you were out?

I'd think typical of cavanmen LOL

And after all the GAA says I'm not Irish.

Davros,
it can change the name to Ulster from Northern Ireland if it wants. It hasn't so it isn't Ulster. Hardly need to be a genius to work that out.

To me this is like a ten-year-old crying:

"I know my name is Jane but I want you all to call me Rachel from now on".

If the term Northern Ireland is so inaccurate for unionists they can ask to have the place changed to Ulster. Who do you ask by the way? Westminster? The Queen? The NIO?

Fair_Deal,
the only modern Ulster entity I know of has nine counties. Now if you want to have a vote, or whatever unionism does when partitioning islands, to create an entity called Ulster off you go.

Just to correct this beano fella again, the Free State did not name itself "ireland", but the "Republic of Ireland". Bunreacht na hÉireann, or the Constitution of Ireland (1937), claimed Ireland to comprise 32 counties and (despite Good Friday amendments) still does. Beano, methinks, is of the clannish, parochial sort that thinks the place is still run by nuns and priests and that we all say things like, "Begorrah...beggin yer pardon yer honour's honour..." and curse the evil Sasanach each day before saying the rosary.

"And after all the GAA says I'm not Irish"

How does it say that Davros?

Billy Pilgrim

The nine county Ulster boundary was defined hundreds of years ago. If you wish to apply the same rule to Europe most of it as we know it would not exist. Boundaries and definitions change.

There are a number of definitions - period. You have a preference for one - fine. Others have a preference for a different one - period. None has any greater validity than the other - period.

And just to be a troll, why is the Elizabethan English carve up of Ireland into the four provinces for the ease of its administration any more valid than the agreed carve up of 1920?

Jarlaith - Political and Geographic entities don't have to be the same.

an arrogant and imperialistic move

A classic case of don't let the facts get in the way of a bad diatribe.

Ireland as "imperialistic"???? Are you seriously trying to equate Ireland with an imperial power?

Beautiful. Just beautiful. You actually took my breath away.

Davros

I'd think typical of cavanmen LOL

Care to explain? ;)

George

"They chose "Northern Ireland" instead because they wanted Ireland in the name. You make your bed, you lie on it."

Who are they?

London chose the names for the two territories in its proposals of 1919, "Northern ireland" and "Southern Ireland".

Chris - it says the GAA provides a sense of Identity for ALL Irish people. It doesn't provide a sense of Identity for me , therefore it is saying I am not Irish.

And just to be a troll, why is the Elizabethan English carve up of Ireland into the four provinces for the ease of its administration any more valid than the agreed carve up of 1920?

You're being told over and over again that the English aren't all bad.

George

Modern? The nine counties isn't a modern definition it dates from the 16th century.

Davros,
Yoiur specious and pedantic comment smacks of evasion rather than erudition. Yes, of course, geographic and political entities don't have to be the same (duh!). But, my point, and I thik Billy's is, that unionist's don't call "Northern Ireland" Ulster because it describes a political or a geographic entity, but becasue it "naturalises" it, because it makes it look less manufactured.

Davros

``If "Ireland" can be both a 26 county and a 32 county (plus islands) entity , why can "Ulster" not be both a 6 county and a 9 county entity ?''

Didn't you read my post? It can't. To refer to the Republic of Ireland as ``Ireland'' is incorrect - even if the Constitution does so. I used to make this point to friends south of the border when I lived in Dublin, but eventually lightened up and got a life after their eyes had glazed over for the nth time.

The constitution's naming of the 26 counties as `Ireland' is an anomaly thrown up by the changes to Articles 2 and 3. Previously, when Bunreacht na hEireann claimed the island as the national territory, it made sense to call the state Ireland. The assumption was that the state was the whole of Ireland, with 26 counties under Dail Eireann's direct control ``pending the re-integration of the national territory''.

However the new articles created a new dynamic in which the integrity of the 26 and the extra-territorial position of the six are firmly established. However no-one seems to have thought about how this actually undoes the logic behind naming the state (in its 26-county glory) Ireland.

So the Republic of Ireland should not be called `Ireland' until such times as all of Ireland is within the Republic. Anything else is, philosophically at least, a suggestion that the six are somehow other than Ireland.

None of which affects the `Ulster' debate one jot. Ulster is nine counties - that is simply a fact that is undisputed by virtually everyone on the planet who has ever even heard of the place. You can choose to come over all existentialist about it if you will, but you know the reality. The founding fathers of the Northern state did.

Perhaps is should be called Ulst? As in 2/3 of Ulster?

No, better yet, Ster. That way you get rid of the Gaelic bit altogether.

``And after all the GAA says I'm not Irish.''

Please elaborate. (Braced for answer of blood-curdling mendacity.)

Jarlaith/BP

Spin false consciousness of Unionists all you like. Its bollcks.

"Chris - it says the GAA provides a sense of Identity for ALL Irish people. It doesn't provide a sense of Identity for me , therefore it is saying I am not Irish."

Come off it Davros. The GAA may well define you more than most, your obsessive opposition to it is the only thing that gets you out of bed in the morning. Admit it, :)

false consciousness

It's not false consciousness. Just one.

What about that linguistic anomaly, Ulster Scots? I had the great derisive pleasure of viewing a governmental billboard in Belfast before with the obligatory tripartite linguistic division that our newfound pluralism happily demands.

The English read: "Can you see the future?"
The Irish read: "An féidir leat an todhchaí a fheiceáil?"
The Ulster Scotts read something like(I am paraphrasing slightly): "Can ye gi the future in yer head?"

English for gay: "homosexual."
Irish for gay: "homoghnéasaí."
Ulster Scotts: "Big Jessie."

Hilarious, uproarious stuff. Similarly, this unionist revision of history, geography, the democratically and overwhelmingly held views of the people of Ireland, is pricelessly revealing.

Davros.

Ok, got your answer re. GAA already.

All I can say is that you can interpret the GAA statement a number of ways and you have gone out of your way to focus on the one that offends you.

It says the GAA provides A (my emphasis) sense of identity for all Irish people.

As you well know, there are many Irish identities. The GAA offers itself as an Irish identity for all Irish people. Irish people who reject it - like you, Peter Robinson, Diarmuid Doyle etc - are no less Irish. Just that your Irishness is of a different stripe. The GAA has no argument with that.

Do you still think the GAA claims you aren't Irish?

Fair Deal

``The nine county Ulster boundary was defined hundreds of years ago. If you wish to apply the same rule to Europe most of it as we know it would not exist. Boundaries and definitions change.''

Yes but the definition of Ulster has not changed. The nine-county province is still very much a reality. Go to Clones some Sunday this summer and you'll see what I mean. Boundaries and definitions change, sure - but the point is that Ulster's hasn't.

Or if it has, when did this happen?

``There are a number of definitions - period.''

Yes. One correct one and an unlimited number of wrong ones.

``You have a preference for one - fine. Others have a preference for a different one - period. None has any greater validity than the other - period.''

Indeed I have a preference for one definition - the right one. Indeed others have a preference for a different one - but their preference has no factual basis and is simply, and absolutely wrong. Any definition other than the nine counties is a wrong one. They don't all have equal validity - the correct definition is valid. All incorrect definitions are invalid, no matter how much you wish this was not the case.

``And just to be a troll, why is the Elizabethan English carve up of Ireland into the four provinces for the ease of its administration any more valid than the agreed carve up of 1920?''

Elizabeth's carve up created 32 counties and four provinces - one of which was the nine-county province of Ulster that I keep banging on about. The 1921 carve-up created Saorstat Eireann and Northern Ireland. Ulster didn't come into it. It was only subsequently that "Ulster" was grafted on in an attempt to mask the sheer artificialty of "Northern Ireland".

``Spin false consciousness of Unionists all you like. Its bollocks.''

There's nobody here spinning false consciousness. You have retreated to unionism's Maginot line. You're out of arguments, but don't feel bad - there aren't any. It happens when you try to argue against fact.

The Ulster Scotts read something like(I am paraphrasing slightly): "Can ye gi the future in yer head?"

Is that for real?

What about in Dublinese: "I'm bleedin' after scopin' deh temorrah in me hed, righ'?"

Davros.

Ok, got your answer re. GAA already.

All I can say is that you can interpret the GAA statement a number of ways and you have gone out of your way to focus on the one that offends you.

It says the GAA provides A (my emphasis) sense of identity for all Irish people.

As you well know, there are many Irish identities. The GAA offers itself as an Irish identity for all Irish people. Irish people who reject it - like you, Peter Robinson, Diarmuid Doyle etc - are no less Irish. Just that your Irishness is of a different stripe. The GAA has no argument with that.

Do you still think the GAA claims you aren't Irish?

Fair Deal

``The nine county Ulster boundary was defined hundreds of years ago. If you wish to apply the same rule to Europe most of it as we know it would not exist. Boundaries and definitions change.''

Yes but the definition of Ulster has not changed. The nine-county province is still very much a reality. Go to Clones some Sunday this summer and you'll see what I mean. Boundaries and definitions change, sure - but the point is that Ulster's hasn't.

Or if it has, when did this happen?

``There are a number of definitions - period.''

Yes. One correct one and an unlimited number of wrong ones.

``You have a preference for one - fine. Others have a preference for a different one - period. None has any greater validity than the other - period.''

Indeed I have a preference for one definition - the right one. Indeed others have a preference for a different one - but their preference has no factual basis and is simply, and absolutely wrong. Any definition other than the nine counties is a wrong one. They don't all have equal validity - the correct definition is valid. All incorrect definitions are invalid, no matter how much you wish this was not the case.

``And just to be a troll, why is the Elizabethan English carve up of Ireland into the four provinces for the ease of its administration any more valid than the agreed carve up of 1920?''

Elizabeth's carve up created 32 counties and four provinces - one of which was the nine-county province of Ulster that I keep banging on about. The 1921 carve-up created Saorstat Eireann and Northern Ireland. Ulster didn't come into it. It was only subsequently that "Ulster" was grafted on in an attempt to mask the sheer artificialty of "Northern Ireland".

``Spin false consciousness of Unionists all you like. Its bollocks.''

There's nobody here spinning false consciousness. You have retreated to unionism's Maginot line. You're out of arguments, but don't feel bad - there aren't any. It happens when you try to argue against fact.

JD,

Leave us Dubs alone - that's out of bounds! ;-)

Jarlaith: I'm a southsider for my sins...

All I can say is that you can interpret the GAA statement a number of ways and you have gone out of your way to focus on the one that offends you.

it's pretty unavoidable. The GAA claims it provides a sense of Identity for "all Irish people".

The exact words -

the G.A.A. now provides a sense of national identity for all Irish people, whether at home or
overseas.

It doesn't provide my sense of Identity. Therefore in it's eyes I'm not Irish. How else can that be read ?

I'm not offended in the least. I don't need the GAA's blessing :) It does however reveal the narrow and chauvinistic attitude of the GAA as an organisation towards Irishness. They still haven't abandoned the gael vs gall mentality of the 19th century. That's not to say that many or most of the ordinary GAA members would look at it that way. But then again a lot of ordinary unionists/protestants in Ulster wouldn't have realised that they thought of Nationalists/RCs as second class citizens.

Davros,

I think you're being a little pedantic again, but I take your point that, just as many unionists claim that everyone in the Six Counties is British, it is wrong for the GAA to infer (and I believe this is a mistake of phraseology rather than ideology) that they represent everyone who's Irish. Indeed, the "Irish" government doesn't represent everyone who is Irish and many Irish people, not just unionist Irish people, have no time for the GAA. Indeed, my own county, despite its 1 mil+ population, can't get a decent team together.

Maybe cos we're in the Pale we're two-left-footed-galls ;-)

I played gaelic a few times myself, only I didn't realise it was gaelic. I thought I
was just having a fistfight for the ball during a game of football.

I played soccer a few times myself, only I didn't realise it was soccer. I thought I was just Irish dancing during a game of football.

LOL Jarlaith, I freely admit I am a pedant:)

I agree, I think it's one of those documents that's badly worded. Does the wording reveal an attitude from the past that still lurks in the "Organisation" ? I suspect that's the case, just as I'm sure if one was to look closely at documents from my side of the fence one could buld a case for saying that there are still traces of old attitudes.

p.s. Hsve to respect a man who freely admits he's a dub ;)

Davros

``It doesn't provide my sense of Identity. Therefore in it's eyes I'm not Irish. How else can that be read?''

I've explained up above. A sense of identity - just A sense of identity. Open to all Irish people but can be taken or left.

``It does however reveal the narrow and chauvinistic attitude of the GAA as an organisation towards Irishness.''

Bollocks. The GAA offers A coherent vision of Irishness, to be taken or left. It doesn't claim to own the copyright on Irishness - it just offers A meaningful definition, to stand on its own merits. Not the whole story, but undoubtedly part of the story.

If your idea of Irishness is different, fine. No arguments. Feel free to disagree and offer other narratives. But don't ascribe malign motives just because it ain't your bag

``But then again a lot of ordinary unionists/protestants in Ulster wouldn't have realised that they thought of Nationalists/RCs as second class citizens.''

A fatuous parallel.

I live in Spain, and when I say I'm Irish people are always asking me if I am from Ireland or from Ulster. Even though the conversation bores me by this stage I always explain that I am from Northern Ireland and I tell them that Ulster is Northern Ireland plus 3 counties in the Republic. I do that because it's the truth. Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan are part of Ulster whether people like that or not. They have never been moved into Connaught, or Leinster, nor given non-provincial status. Anyway, anyone who has been in those counties know that the accent is as Ulsterish, to coin an adjective, as the Ballymoney accent or the Armagh accent or the Derry accent...

davros,

the more you bang on about the GAA not defining you the more you define yourself in GAA terms.
I suspect though that your anti-GAA stance is a ruse and your real issue is with Kerry winning the last All-Ireland. The answer is to get more people of Denver Thompson's ilk involved with their local club and, hopefully, qualify for county team selection. That way the six counties will have a better chance of building teams capable of taking on the southern counties.

It's always seemed to me that the future lay in directly dealing with those who supported the DUP.

The UUP and middle-class unionists have shown themselves on numerous occasions incapable of delivering or speaking for the unionist family.

That's been the case since those early failures of Terence O'Neill.

The only curious thing is just how long it took media and commentators and "intellectuals" to wise up to this very simple and obvious fact.

Perhaps the realities of life are something these opinion-formers prefer not to address.

And if that's the case they're more of a hindrance than a space for free and open discourse

LOL! "You're out of arguments, but don't feel bad - there aren't any. It happens when you try to argue against fact"

Fact 1 - The term Ulster has been applied to the northern half of the island.
Fact 2 - The term Ulster has been applied to what equates to 2 counties.
Fact 3 - The term Ulster has been applied to what equates to the 10 most northerly counties.
Fact 4 - The term Ulster has been applied to 9 counties.
Fact 5 - The term Ulster has been applied to 6 counties.

All of them are "right". You can repeat fact 4 to your heart's content and try and present it as a fait accompli as it is the only fact that supports your argument. Pity the other four demonstrate your blinkers and inability to cope with a second identity on the island.

A fatuous parallel.

One that obviously makes you feel uncomfortable.

There's no way round it Billy. if The GAA says it provides a sense of identity for all Irish people, then by definition those whose Identity it doesn't provide aren't, in it's eyes, Irish. That's 19th century nationalism. It's DP Moran. The GAA needs to shed that attitude to the Irish People who don't embrace and who don't want to embrace it's Gaelic mission. Ditto Sinn Féin in respect of it's attitudes to gael vs gall. It may be a historical remnant, but it's there and it's unacceptable in a multicultural Ireland.

What a pointless waste of 66 posts, including this one, on subjects which are utterly irrelevant.

Davros,

Your resort to the old "stuck record" tactic is proof that you have run out of steam on this one, :)
You've lost the argument old friend.
By obsessively defining yourself in (anti)GAA terms you have inadvertently put that organisation at the centre of your cultural identity. The irony is that you need not have but that's the choice you made. You may as well have picked up a hurley and turned out for training. ROFL.

assuming it's a mistake and that you aren't playing troll games by cloning my moniker, You might call it stuck record, but the fact remains - there are real problems in the GAA that need to be addressed. It's sad that any look at the GAA in detail makes you laager up.

Davros

What you consider "problems" many consider values

What exactly needs to be changed?

No troll game Davros, second time I've made that cock up today. Sorry.

You are struggling though, :)

Repeating that tired mantra is tantamount to surrender. Why not chuck in the towel and gracefully admit that without the GAA, and maybe a few other Irish cultural reference points, you'd be completely lost?

Billy
"To refer to the Republic of Ireland as ``Ireland'' is incorrect..."

This is one area we'll always disagree on Billy. My state is called Ireland, i'll accept either Éire or Ireland but nothing else. If there's a conflict I suggest renaming the island to Hibernia but my state name remains as it is. ;)

FC
"I live in Spain, and when I say I'm Irish people are always asking me if I am from Ireland or from Ulster"

I always get "are you from Scotland or Ireland?" I have never once heard the word "ulster" mentioned by someone who wasn't Irish or British.


fair_deal
In your (incorrect) vision of a 6-cty Ulster, where do Donegal, Monaghan & Cavan end up? Do we stick 'em in Leinster?

fookin security codes!!

I have never once heard the word "ulster" mentioned by someone who wasn't Irish or British.

To be fair, I've heard 'l'Ulster' and 'l'Eire' (pron. 'lair') in France and 'el Ulster' (note article) in Spain quite frequently, even in newspaper articles.

But not in Germanic Europe, of course.

Maca

You stick Cavan back in Connacht, where if feckin' belongs!

IJP
Well i've only been in France a couple of times, and never in Spain. Never heard it in any of the other countries I have been to though.
Most Europeans don't know the difference between UK & GB etc so I wouldn't expect them to know Irish provinces.

Cheers for the explanation barney.

Chris - It's upto the GAA to decide if it wants to be inclusive and part of a multicultural Ireland, or
whether it continues as a political entity. But as long as it is a nationalist/republican organisation it will not be a warm house for those of us who don't hold those views.

From the above posts I notice the following attitudes amongst some:

1. "Ulster" cannot be used for Northern Ireland because there are 3 counties of the Elizabethan province that are not part of Northern Ireland.

2. "Ireland" cannot be used to refer to the 26 counties of the Republic of Ireland because that state does not have Northern Ireland within its jurisdiction.

I would suggest that both of these views are pedantic rubbish from people who really need to get a life.

Does anyone seriously suggest, for example, that we cannot refer to the USA as "America" because it does not encompass all of the American continents? Or that we cannot refer to the same country as "The United States" because the official name of Mexico is the "United States of Mexico" (in Spanish of course)?

The worst thing about this pedantry is that some pedants have not even got their facts right. The Irish constitution does not refer to the state it establishes as "The Republic of Ireland". The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland (Article 4). The Republic of Ireland is officially used as a description of the state rather than its title, following legislation declaring the state a republic in 1949.

Chris,

have fun with Davros, the uber-troll when it comes to matters GAA. I'm off to the pub.

have fun with Davros, the uber-troll when it comes to matters GAA. I'm off to the pub.

Barney, turning to drink because you lost an argument is a bad sign ;)

One more anti-Cavan remark,and i will complain to Mick,

Davros

None of us care less what all that documentation involved in the GAA says,We play GAA because it is a wonderful game,You would be wise to ignore all that shit about the GAA giving an Irish identity,its a wonderful sport,Thats all.

Cavanman- I have previously acknowledged, and am happy to do so again, that I have no problems with the hundreds of thousands of people involved with the GAA on a sporting or cultural basis. I do have problems with the political dimension of the organisation.

You won't win this one Cavanman ;)

The disagreement then I guess is what is this "political dimension"? Does it just exist in the Guide Book or otherwise .. ?

Maca said: 'I always get "are you from Scotland or Ireland?" I have never once heard the word "ulster" mentioned by someone who wasn't Irish or British.'

I've been asked twice in the last week if I was from Ireland or Ulster, by Spanish people. The Spanish papers often use Ulster interchangeably with 'Irlanda del Norte' so I understand why people do that, but like I said, Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan have never left Ulster to move into another province, nor are they stuck in an extra-provincial limbo, therefore Ulster, properly speaking is the nine counties, not only the 6 of N.I.
Again I would point out that the accents of the 3 Ulster counties in the Republic are Ulster accents.
If you go to towns like Letterkenny or Monaghan you see companies called 'Ulster this' and 'Ulster that'.
The only surviving dialect of Ulster Irish is spoken in Donegal.
Resorting to arguments like the provinces are an Elizabethan construct or the counties of English origin to say that Ulster can be now used only for N.I. just doesn't work.

Of course once again all of this has little or nothing to do with the original thread subject of a GAA playing DUP man. But I always thought geography was more interesting than politics anyway :-)

Davros

I am against the political dimension of the organisation too,The Constitution of the GAA should be rewritten,Names of Clubs after Terrorists should be outlawed,The political dimension is only exercised by 7 Ulster counties,excluding Cavan and Donegal,and A few other counties,Other than that,there would be no opposition to change i would not think,The thing is though,I dont know who is going to bring about that change.

Where to begin maca ? From the flag and the anthem via clubs and competitions named after 'volunteers' through to the Charter.

Pat Fanning, one-time president of the GAA - as reported in the Irish Times - said that "the GAA position is clear. Its historical role is not a myth.
"Our charter proclaims the determination of the GAA to work for a 32-county Ireland. The allegiance of the GAA is to Ireland. That allegiance is unequivocal.
"The very existence of the GAA is a protest not alone against the occupation of Casement Park, but against the occupation of Ireland, or any part of Ireland."

If anyone was going to bring about change within the GAA,i believe it will be someone of the protestant community,Perhaps a high profile GAA member such as Peter Withnall the ex Down Star.Other than from someone like this, i cannot see the impetus for change,As the majority of GAA members are unaware of the Unionist communities Objections.

Cheers Cavanman. Yet again when people stop talking at cross purposes they find they are in agreement.

You raise an important point there CavanMan. We in the North see the Northern GAA and not the GAA as a whole. If the Northern GAA was more like the rest of the GAA we'd be half-way there. And I'd like to acknowledge that the Northern GAA has reason to be hostile in view of how it has been treated over the years by security forces and Loyalists.

Dav & CM
"Where to begin maca ? From the flag and the anthem via clubs and competitions named after 'volunteers' through to the Charter."
&
"As the majority of GAA members are unaware of the Unionist communities Objections"

There's no way your average GAA head will know about the problems unionists have with the GAA. I only found out about the issues here on Slugger. So as CM said there's no "impetus for change". For most members there is no political dimension, I don't know a single person who joined for political reasons. Since most members join when they are toddlers they wouldn't know or care who or what a unionist/nationalist is.

Davros,

The attitude of northern GAA counties to contentious issues, is indeed different to the bulk of southern counties, bar a few.
Now we can either say thats is because northern counties are bigoted because of this zeal or there may be circumstances that have coloured their view somewhat.

I can recall abuse being directed at me and my team-mates as we walked to play Gaelic, leaving Tyrone in Ulster to play on our home pitch in Donegal in Ulster. The abuse from the British soldiers was severe, provacative and mostly devoid of the knowledge that you possess of GAA ideology, as i was. I was 9/10 years old. This may help to explain what were in fact token resistance to the new rule changes.

Perhaps with the Rule 42 business out of the way,Someone of the unionist persuasion will bring their grievances to the attention of the GAA world.The question i ask,is even if all the unionist problems were solved,about the GAA, would any amount from that community participate in Hurling/Gaelic Football, if the response was positive,then it is worth the risk of alienating our fellow Ulster GAA members,by attempting change.

The reason Lord Carson and many Unionists, especially Orangemen who served on the 1920 21 UUC refused to accept the official name "State of Northern Ireland" instead of "Ulster" after partition, is because of the terrible guilt Orangemen have over selling some 40,000 of their loyal brethern who signed the Ulster Covenant in 1912 from Cavan Monaghan & Donegal into a Catholic dominated Irish free state to save their own cowardly skins back in 1920-21.

"there was an element of cowardice and want of backbone in the action of the UUC in sacrificing the loyal men of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal … for which there was no argument whatsoever except the numerical argument"
http://www.oxford-barton.info/Pettigo%201922.htm

CC- did you miss this in my last post ?

And I'd like to acknowledge that the Northern GAA has reason to be hostile in view of how it has been treated over the years by security forces and Loyalists.

CM
The response would be mixed. A number of unionists have said here quite clearly that it makes no difference what the GAA does they will never be accepted by the unionist community. But we already know that some of Donegals unionists, for example, are involved with the GAA so i'd be surprised if a few unionists from the North weren't persuaded to take up the sports.

Cavanman - It has been discussed in the letters pages of the Irish News.

I did miss it yeah, sorry Davros.

Have you ever played? If not, would you if the GAA changed its constitution and became purely a sporting body?

No problems CC :)

As for my playing it, It would kill me LOL. Never played any of them, but then I did everything possible to avoid playing Rugby and Cricket. If I was sporty and 35 years younger I'd play and I already have had no problem with my family playing it - some did as they went to a Catholic School - and I'd have no problem with the cultural aspects.In fact I had to take one of my nieces to but a Camogie bat ( LOL- just kidding, I know it's called a camaan) Of course there are going to be a hard core on my side of the fence who will always be hostile all things Gaelic, just as there would be a hard core on your side of the fence who would always cling to the aspects we are discussing. I think plenty of people would be interested. The problem is getting round our self-imposed apartheid. Anything that builds community spirit is in everybody's interest.

But= buy a camaan. Typing and eating Tayto Cheese and Onion crisps.... eat your heart out maca! ;)

Gimme some a dem crisps willya? God I miss the taytos!

LOL Maca - It's wonderful. 24 X Tayto Cheese and Onion for £2-00 !

Oh yeah, rub it in Dav! ;)

Speaking of tayto - what's the deal with Southern Tayto? Are they made under licence or what? I think they're decidedly average but people I know from Fermanagh say they're nicer than the Tandragee variety! Are they insane or am I missing something?!

beano, southern tayto, or to be correct, Tayto in the ROI are actually a separate company.
Heard that from the horses mouth at the Tayto factory in tandragee

Partitionist mongrels! That settles it, we can't have a United Ireland because there would be two crisp manufacturing companies both called Tayto. I'm glad this issue has finally been resolved after 85 years. Now we can get on with fixing schools, hospitals and the economy! :D

Ah no Beano.

Do you not see that all our problems with schools, health, the economy are caused by the sheer madness and inefficiency of having separate Taytos in such a small country?

What we need is a united Tayto, where the red white and blue (southern) and the red white and yellow (northern) can come together to make a world-beating crisp.

We must end the union with Walkers and unite around the common name of Tayto.

Our Taytos are better than yours anyway! And our Taytos website is better than your taytos website! ;)

Actually I didn't even know there was an occupied tayto. "Tayto" is a registered trademark of the Irish company though, afaik, I wonder have they had a court battle or anything over it? How can two companies market a product under the same name?

Interesting that they seem to be two totally different companies one set up in 1954 in the ROI and the other in 1956 in NI. By looking at the websites I am not so sure there is a licence involved at all rather two completely different companies with different but simialr products but with the same name.

Ah Maca but you don`t have a Tayto Castle do ya? ;)

Pffth .. castle, who needs 'em!

I used to live in Church St Tandragee :) Played in the castle grounds - boy, sometimes that place STANK
of cooking oil :)

I'd rather have Hunky-Dory's or Mc Coy's any day. If either company want to send me a free box of their crisps after that free advertising I won't say no :-)

Davros.

Jesus, is there anywhere in the north you haven't lived at one time or another?

Actually, having given this important matter some thought I nominate McCoy's Spicey Chilli best crisp flavour ever. No variety of Tayto comes even close...