Golly :

"The Protestant community in the area still faces significant problems such as discrimination."

So much for the oft-aired claim by certain posters here that protestants face no discrimination in the ROI.

The Protestant Community in our great country face absolutely no discrimination.Fact is Many Protestans will not engage in activities with Catholics,and stick with each other..we cannot be blamed for that, It is their bigotry which is the cause of the slight,and i mean slight differences around the border areas. It is NOT discrimination.

G-Dawg

yeah, keep telling yourself that.

G-Dawg - why would RTE and the author of this report tell lies ?

I'll air it again for you Davros.

Until it is at least clear exactly who the authors of the report are, what they've written and what their aim is it is very hard to attribute any weight to a press release on a slow news day.

According to the latest availableEquality Authority Annual Report (2003), the number of claims in the major categories descreased as follows -Disability, Age, Race, Sexual Orientation,Traveller, Gender, Family Status, Marital Status and Religion.

Religion is last. And they also state that the number of claims pertaining to the last three categories is 'low'.

Below is the only item in the report that could possible refer to a Protestant being disciminated against on the basis of religion (and in the context of this thread, there is nothing to say that it is relates to a protestant)

Access to a Catholic School was denied
to a child who was non-Catholic. Advice
was given by the Equality Authority and
a successful appeal was made to the
school. As a result the child was
admitted to the school.

Religion is last.

Hardly surprising, is it ? There are next to feck-all prods to be discriminated against compared to the numbers, for example, of women who are vulnerable to sex discrimination. And If I was a southern Prod along the borders surrounded by
"ex-prisoners" I wouldn't be in a hurry to stick my neck out .....

Davros and Rebecca Clark
Protestants here ignore Catholics and do not associate with us,except in the odd activities such as Rugby etc,Irish Catholics have nothing to answer for,if they want reasons for being outcasts..they should look at their own actions and hatred towards their catholic neighbours.

All

A press statement I found about the launch. It doesn't seem to be a case of the usual suspects.

The Emerald Curtain - the Social Impact of the Border (April 5, Ballyconnell, Co. Cavan)
The Emerald Curtain - the Social Impact of the Border
April 5th 2005
Slieve Russell Hotel, Ballyconnell, Co. Cavan

Over the past year, Triskele Community Training & Development, with the support of ADM/CPA, has carried out groundbreaking research on the social impact of the border on the communities living alongside it.

Brian Harvey and Assumpta Kelly will present "The Emerald Curtain", a ground breaking and insightful piece of research which examines the social impact of the border on the border communities.

This unprecedented research was undertaken to investigate the specific social, cultural and economic impact of the border on its communities and identify innovative strategies to strengthen and build a sustainable community infrastructure.

The key note address will be given by Mamo McDonald and we will also have a number of guest speakers on the day.

An open forum, chaired by Sean McGearty of Triskele, will follow, offering you an opportunity to respond and share your thoughts with us and your fellow delegates.

We hope that you can join us at what will be a truly memorable conference in a beautiful location.

Please RSVP to: Niall Shanahan, Montague Communications,
5 Wellpark Avenue, Drumcondra, Dublin 9.
Ph: 01-837 7960
Fax: 01 – 837 7962
Email: nialls@montaguecomms.ie

Protestants here ignore Catholics and do not associate with us

The levels of mixed marriages shoots that one down in flames matey..... But next time someone mentions discrimination against RCs in the North which did and still does occur , I'll try spinning that yarn ... prods don't discriminate against RCs, RCs like to stick together and won't apply for jobs where there are prods etc etc LOL

Discrimination against protestants in the Republic--wherever it occurs--is the country's shame.

However, it's interesting that it's the border that's being singled out for blame. Yes, that line which split the country.

Just thought I'd remind everyone.

Surely it must be true if the Authors of a Report say so?

Hardly surprising, is it ? There are next to feck-all prods to be discriminated against compared to the numbers, for example, of women who are vulnerable to sex discrimination. And If I was a southern Prod along the borders surrounded by
"ex-prisoners" I wouldn't be in a hurry to stick my neck out .....

There's more Prods (never mind Muslims etc..) than Travellers, yet they managed to put in over 50% of the claims last year if I heard correctly!!

And the whole 'ex-prisoners' stuff looks like another red herring.

Surely it must be true if the Authors of a Report say so?

I agree: if you are saying that both the claims about discrimination and the border are to be treated with equal caution.

If not, well, I don't know what to make of your comments. All contributors so far have ignored what the authors are explicitly connecting the discrimination to.

Ringo - The discussion is whether there is ANY discrimination against prods, not whether they are MOPE ( Most Oppressed Prods Ever ) - so the fact, while shameful, that travellers are especially discriminated against does not disprove that there IS discrimination against Protestants in the 26 counties.

JD

Well, it was Nationalists who insisted on leaving the country, so you'd support the return of the Republic to the UK? :)

(If Willowfield was about he'd have written that without grinning, you know...)

In all seriousness, it has been determined beyond much doubt that the border was not good news. But would an enforced all-Ireland state of whatever form have been better?

It's a bit like the 'What would've happened if England hadn't conquered Ireland' line - what would've happened, actually, is not that innocent Ireland would've been a peaceful utopia, but that some other power would've conquered both. Would that have been better?

We have a significant divide on this island, we always have had, and people must get used to the idea that their ideal solution will have to be sacrificed. It's called compromise. Placing a border at all within the British Isles, and then placing it where it is, was a compromise. If there's a better solution, it's up to people to present it to us all, not just to MOPE about that compromise without clarifying what better option there is and why. And that compromise has to deal with the fact there is a significant British national minority on the island, and a significant Irish national minority in NI, and neither is just going to go away, you know!

It's not popular to point this out at elections of course, but it is right!

JD,

The point is that that the RTE story has no substance. They repeat the allegation that there is discrimination but do not disclose what this is or how it is connected to the border. They also argue that employers should not be allowed to discriminate against ex-cons. They are entitled to their views but how is it "news"? Oh and apparently they "reveal"[sic] that many women have low paying jobs. Hopefully compiling this "report" was one of them.

"This unprecedented research was undertaken to investigate the specific social, cultural and economic impact of the border on its communities"

Well, it's about 84 years to late to carry out a social and cultural investigation. The economic impact seems pretty obvious - smuggling and claiming twice as many benefits.

A personal anecdote about discrimination in Donegal. My uncle wanted to buy some (quality) farmland in east Donegal. He had to pretend he was a protestant because the locals dont want to sell to catholics.

Otherwise, discrimination against protestants? I keep hearing contradictory statements.

The last I remember was the current presbyterian minister in Carnmoney saying he never faced religious bigotry growing up in Dublin. He was contrasting it to life in Glengormley.

What do southern protestants think? Do any post here?

Rebecca Black you seem to have something to say on the subject?

Well, it was Nationalists who insisted on leaving the country, so you'd support the return of the Republic to the UK? :)

Hee hee.

Seriously, though, the border's ability to produce, ontologise and essentialise difference (rather than passively reflect it) is an important topic, and I'm glad to see it being explored.

I just didn't want the topic to be reduced to either, "See? I told you the Republic hates us." or "It's not happening. Look over there!" and everyone ignore what the report authors are trying to say.

I simply don't know if a UI would have been better. And, we'll never know. It didn't happen. What did happen..., well, at least we know something about that.

IMO, there has to be compromise also: neither UI nor UK. And take it from there.

IMO, there has to be compromise also: neither UI nor UK. And take it from there.

Federal European (preferrably socialist) Republic?

Everybody wins. Nobody loses.

Federal European (preferrably socialist) Republic?

It's certainly an interesting idea, Davros. I'm absolutely behind it as a concept.

Realistically, though, how difficult/ easy would it be to get the UK to commit sufficiently to Europe to make that idea workable? I'm asking because I don't really know exactly where the UK stands on Europe atm.

IJP

What ever did happen to Willowfield?

Davros?

Leave poor G-Dawg alone.

Also, I think it's time for a moratorium on MOPE. It's getting a little old at this stage, where it's thrown up every time any kind of issue of discrimination is raised. (As though we have never had discrimination on this island.)

On the issue of discrimination against Protestants in the Republic, I will read the report's findings with interest. It does seem that the northern unionist argument re. southern discrimination against Protestants is based on nods, winks and negative logic: that it's up to southern Catholics to prove that it didn't happen, and sure of course they did, sure wouldn't they just?

The stat about the decline in the Protestant population is frequently dragged out and declared as a bald statistic. (While natural demographic factors are overlooked. As well as the overwhelming historical evidence that while there were instances of sectarian violence against Protestants there was nothing approaching the pogroms and mass displacements suffered by Catholics in the north.)

That said, there must surely have been difficulties faced by Protestants in the 26, particularly during De Valera's reign. But the fact is that at the end of DeV's premiership, 60% of the Republic's private wealth was still in the hands of Protestants (which is vastly disproportionate, but good luck to them).

So while they may have had an uneasiness about the general ambience of the place, and while isolated but nonetheless eternally shameful incidents like Fethard-on-Sea must have turned their stomachs, they were nonetheless full stomachs. These were, and are, people with access to the higher echelons of Irish life. People with professions, land, wealth and connections.

Meanwhile in the north, the landless, homeless, jobless, penniless, prospect-less, disenfranchised, humiliated Catholic population was organising a civil rights movement.

Let me put you out of your misery: if you look hard enough for instances of Catholic discrimination against Protestants in the 26, you'll find them. But if you think there are enough examples just waiting to be unearthed that will somehow negate the moral high ground gained by northern nationalism during its long oppression under the unionist jackboot: sorry, but you'll be disappointed.

Davros.

``Federal European (preferrably socialist) Republic?

Everybody wins. Nobody loses.''

How about in the meantime, dual sovereignty? Then we can long-finger the decision on partition until Ireland joins the European project and the UK doesn't.

How about in the meantime, dual sovereignty?

Sadly it wouldn't and couldn't work Billy. In that case there would be winners and losers and we end up all losing.

Davros?

Leave poor G-Dawg alone.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if G-Dawg turns out to be a long lost cousin of ulsterman. On the other side of the blanket, whichever side that is.

Ringo - The discussion is whether there is ANY discrimination against prods, not whether they are MOPE ( Most Oppressed Prods Ever ) - so the fact, while shameful, that travellers are especially discriminated against does not disprove that there IS discrimination against Protestants in the 26 counties.

regarding the travellers, they accounted for 50% plus of the claims of discrimination - that doesn't equate to travellers being the most sinned against. I genuinely don't know what the outcome of the claims were.

As for protestants - I'm not going to use the word never, because obviously there are exceptions to prove every rule - the level of reported discrimination as reported by the Equality Authority is thankfully not significant in either frequency or severity to merit a mention.

Now either the authors of this report are engaging in shocking sensationalism/lying or the Equality Authority are engaging in a very successful (to date) cover-up of discrimiation against protestants/lying.

And considering the fact that the authors are demanding that the same Equality Authority examine their report I think it is clear sensationalism in order to generate publicity for the report.

At least you are admitting that there is some discrimination ringo. That was my point.

Billy -

1)The MOPE bit was a Play on words

2) When you talk of Joint Sovereignty I assumed you meant joint Sovereignty between Westminster and Dáil over all 32 counties and associated off-shore Islands ?

JD - I don't think anybody knows how the UK or ROI stand on the European Project. I suspect it won't be down to the man in the street, regardless of what we might think. But I sincerely believe that it's the only way we'll see a (relatively ?) peaceful end to the border in my lifetime and probably in the lifetime of most people currently alive.

What discrimination are you talking about Davros?

What you got Jimmy ? ;)

I thought you were the one complaining about it.

I thought you were the one complaining about it.

Me ? Where Jimmy ? I was pointing out a report by RTE that contradicts claims made that it doesn't exist in the ROI.

"So much for the oft-aired claim by certain posters here that protestants face no discrimination in the ROI."

Nothing more, nothing less.

Firstly..
G-dawg, I don't know what state you live in but i'm pretty sure it's not Ireland. Truth is that religion, to the VAST majourity, is not an issue down South, so much so that generally you wouldn'd have a clue what religion a person is unless you know them well, be it that lad you're kicking ball with or the mott you're shifting on a saturday night you just generally wouldn't know or care what religion they are. "don't associate"? Arse!

To address the main issue. I have no doubt there has been *some* discrimination against all minorities. I also have no doubt that these cases are isolated and small in number and in the case of discrimination against protestants they are probably in border areas (an assumption there if i'm honest). But the truth, which i'll repeat again, is that religion simply isn't an issue to most of us down south.

We have been living beside a protestant family for going on 35 years (shit is it that long!), and I have never even once heard them mention any discrimination they have faced.

G-Dawg

who's rebecca clark?!

From 4 years living in the republic I don't think there's any real anti protestant feeling in the south. That is if you keep your mouth shut!

Protestants are under represented in the Dail, there are more dogs than protestants in the gardai, and any protestants who do raise their head above the parapet are simply not taken seriously.

A protestants treatment in the south relies on where they live, how wealthy they are and how outspoken they are.

You appeared to be suggesting that such discrimination exists. I'm not aware of any. In the absence of any elaboration in the report, can you point to any examples?

"A protestants treatment in the south relies on where they live, how wealthy they are and how outspoken they are."

I don't think that's a fair or even accurate assessment.

Maca has mentioned an issue that is far more important which is the treatment of minorities in the south.

I'd say protestants have by far the best treatment out of the minorities in Ireland. The Chinese community, the black community, the Muslim community and the gay community all face much more trouble than protestants do.

"Maca has mentioned an issue that is far more important which is the treatment of minorities in the south."

I'll also point out that I believe Ireland to be pretty much the same as most European countries. Minorities can face discrimination everywhere, Ireland is no exception. I'm a minority, I have faced discrimination. That's life, unfortunatly.

Rebecca,

You seem to be suggesting that underrepresentation is a result of discrimination. Why do you say this?

Quite simply because protestants feel too intimidated to get involved in politics and if they are unionist there is no party to represent them.

There are a few prods in Fine Gael but that is it.

"protestants feel too intimidated to get involved in politics"

I have to be honest, I don't believe that for a second.

"There are a few prods in Fine Gael but that is it."

This is actually a key issue I believe. Ya see, most of us wouldn't know how many protestants are in any of the Irish parties, why? because we simply don't care what religion the politicians are. We certainly wouldn't research it. All we want are honest politicians who will do a good job for us, simple as that.

Quite simply because protestants feel too intimidated to get involved in politics and if they are unionist there is no party to represent them.

All protestants? Including the senate? Intimidated in what way? Threats of violence?

I've several protestant friends, and I know that none of them see things as you do.

You also mention protestant members of FG: that undermines your point and perhaps reveals it as a perception.

As far as the lack of a unionist party is concerned: why not set it up? And more power to your elbow.

JD

I set up a unionist society in TCD, that was enough bother for one lifetime.

Its honestly not just a perception, I have talked to alot of people about the issue of protestants in politics in the south, people from different political parties. They all agree that protestants are under represented whether you choose to believe that or not.

Rebecca,

I'm puzzled as to what you mean by "intimidated"? I'm not aware of any case in which a protestant politician's religion was made an issue?

Lets put it this way Jimmy, can you think of any protestant politicians?

They all agree that protestants are under represented whether you choose to believe that or not.

I neither believe nor disbelieve it. Perhaps they said it, and perhaps you heard it. But all you've offered is anecdote and perception. Nothing concrete.

Under representation does not necessarily translate into discrimination.

You appeared to be suggesting that such discrimination exists.

You might have interpreted my post as that, but I was quoting a report on RTE :)

""The Protestant community in the area still faces significant problems such as discrimination."

JD

I am sensing we are entering an unwinnable argument. I cannot speak for all the protestants living in the republic, I can only go by my own experiences and what I know.

Rebecca,

Yes I can, but I accept that the numbers have been disproportionately small. Are you saying that you merely assume that intimidation must be involved or are you aware in terms of intimidation which has taken place?

yes, to me personally for trying to reawaken unionism in dublin.

But I don't really feel comfortable talking about this on a public forum as I am using my real name.

"yes, to me personally for trying to reawaken unionism in dublin."

Because you're protestant or because you're unionist?

I was going to just let this go.

Yet you made blanket statements about the treatment of protestants as a whole in the Republic, using anecdotal evidence from unnamed people you spoke to. You refused to provide evidence.

And now you're alleging the use of intimidation at TCD because you set up a unionist society. And once again you refuse to say anything.

What was the reason for bringing it up, then?

Feel Free Rebecca, we are not ALL monsters you know,(apologies for calling you Rebecca Clark)From someone who lives 4 miles from the border.. in an area with a sizeable population of protestants,i have been part of organisations within the area,who have tried to reach out to the protestant community in order to organise Soccer Teams/Rugby Teams even GAA teams,and other charity events,the response i got from the protestant people was dismal...We have tried to make this parish/community a more welcoming friendlier place..but the protestant community turned up their noses at us.I would hope this is not the case,in other areas...i feel the only sort of discrimination Protestants could possibely feel is the anti-british feeling in certain areas..which is not directed towards them,but mostly to the british army during the times of the troubles.Now i await davros's abuse ;)

JD

The point of bringing it up was because I am a protestant living in the republic, it is relevent to me.

I don't go into details of my own life online for anyone to see, furthermore, I am not inclined to start naming people on the internet, I hardly think it is responsible or that they would appreciate me discussing them on a public forum. Have a bit of sense would you.

G-dawg

Of course you are not all monster, I really enjoy living in Dublin and have many friends from a variety of backrounds. From what I have experienced of the rest of Ireland, generally people are very nice, warm and welcoming.

I'm not saying as I have heard other thats Ireland is some sort of "priest ridden state" Its not, but there is the occasional bit of crap that happens and that should be addressed.

Rebecca,

It has nothing to do with my lacking sense. You made comments that allege discrimination in the Republic against protestants. And you offer no evidence. That's not usually what passes for debate around here.

As far as your alleged intimidation is concerned, no-one asked you to reveal names, so that's irrelevant. You've already given details of your personal life. No one asked for those either. But they do form a context that supplies us with possibilities.

Your innuendo clearly invited us to read between the lines.

'Truth is that religion, to the VAST majourity, is not an issue down South,'

I've spent months sitting across from a Protestant at work, and never knew (she doesn't talk in her sleep*), only found out around discussions of JPII’s demise.

In fairness to Rebecca (and is braver than most for using her real name) she was asked for her opinion.

However, at a guess I'd say Protestants are fairly represented. If I was pushed I could only name Trevor Sargent (Leader of the Greens) in the Dail and the best person ever to sit in Seanad Eireann, David Norris (Is Shane Ross ONE OF THEM!). However, I couldn't name many in the Dail that I knew for certain were RC. It's not an issue or would factor in my voting process.

* Only joking, Eileen!!

BP

What ever did happen to Willowfield?

I wish I knew! We were quite a triple act!

I think the underrepresentation point is right. I believe Sergeant is currently the sole protestant TD, although I think there were one or two others in the last Dail (Ivan Yates springs to mind) and Martin Mansergh remains a major player despite not landing a seat. A coiple of explanations spring to mind. Irish politics tend to be dynastic. It's a help therefore if you're descended from a GPO veteran, among whom one suspects protestants are not legion. There is also the tradition of canvassing outide mass. I recall an attempt by John Horgan to introduce the practice to a South Dublin protestant church and being told firmly to go away. I'm sceptical as to the intimidation claim, but I'm open to correction.

Smcgiff
"I've spent months sitting across from a Protestant at work, and never knew"

Well I live in a 'protestant' country so I assume all at work here are protestants. Though I can't know for sure unless I ask. But why would I ask anyway?

"I couldn't name many in the Dail that I knew for certain were RC."

I don't think most of us could name many politicians we knew for definite were either catholic or protestant. Of course we can assume that since 90% of the population is catholic it might be something similiar in the parties, but if asked to put money on whether someone is definitly catholic or not could you? I couldn't. In fact I had to do a Google search even to check Bertie's religion!

Most of my family are southern Irish Protestants. They would generally be of the opinion that there is a level of antipathy towards them from a small number of people in the majority community. Most southern Protestants (outside the older generation in the border counties) are not sympathetic towards unionism, in fact the major complaint that I have heard is that many people do not regard them as properly Irish because they are Protestant.

There is a perception that the Garda and the civil service would be difficult places to get a job as a Protestant. One of my relatives was married to a member of the Garda, who got a lot of abuse at work for having a Protestant spouse.

When it comes to wider issues of politics and intimidation I am not aware of any modern examples, but I do recollect that Senator Billy Fox was murdered by a gang that later turned out to be Provisional IRA members during a sectarian attack in the early 1970s. This is still very much remembered in Co. Monaghan. Sectarian attacks on Protestant churches have occurred even in recent years in the border counties. I'm unsure why there is a chill factor in Dublin or other parts of the country though, as these things aren't really a feature elsewhere.

Hmm, just my 2 cent on all this..

I have spent about 18 years of my life in the south- 12 in tipperary and 6 in monaghan. It was only when we moved to monaghan that I became aware of a divide in culture...

Without wanting to get too involved at this late stage, I have to say the excuses/reasons given here for underrepresentation in the Dail remind me distinctly of the sort of reasons to defend/deny discrimination in NI or the UK.

"It's not our fault, they don't want to play" kind of thing.

I won't argue that the underrepresentation in the Dail is or isn't a result of "institutional sectarianism" as there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to support that, I'm just saying the rationale could be considered a bit dodgy.

Rebecca,
I sense a number of subterranean ,and to varying extents dysfunctional, psychodynamic stirrings here.
First of all displacement.The thinness on the ground of unionists in the ROI and general refractoriness to 'reviving unionism' is transmogrified into the somewhat less unpalatable perception of generic anti-Protestantism.The fact is that unionists are thin on the ground here because it is a political philosophy to which hardly anyone (Catholic or Protestant) subscribes or wants to subscribe.This does not equate towards hostility to those who may actually subscribe this worldview-an important point.Reviving unionism in the ROI would come across to most as ancien regimeish retrogression - like trying to resurrect communism in Poland.
Then there is seductive victimology,with its attendant positive spin-offs of perceived heroism,the moral high ground etc. -an affliction which to be fair has affected some NI Catholics.A drug addict will stop at nothing to get drugs.Accordingly a victimology addict will subconsciously strive to validate their worldview,however unsound,a la classic Sartrean fallacy of selecting out the opinions that you want,even to the extent of convincing themselves that there is significant anti-Protestant discrimination in the ROI-for example.In my experience if someone in their heart of hearts wants to see themselves as a victim and discriminated against they will invariably find post-hoc rationalisation.
The feasibility of a political party representing a particular viewpoint is predicated on a certain baseline level of support for that viewpoint which,as far as ROI unionism is concerned, simply is not there.

''Its honestly not just a perception, I have talked to alot of people about the issue of protestants in politics in the south, people from different political parties.''

Rebecca,I think you misread signals because of an incomplete understanding of the Southern psyche.Southerners rather than being confrontational tend to take a an indulgent view when faced with ... er...untenable political advocacies to the extent of simply telling people what they think they want to hear.
A character called Stan Gebler Davies stood for election as a unionist in Cork SW in 1992.He was treated quite benignly -like a harmless eccentric.His eventual vote would have embarrassed even the Monster Raving Loonies Party.
As with practically all southerners I don't give **** about religion as an evaluative parameter in terms of individuals so I probably have Protestant friends of whose religion I am unaware.Those whom I know as such are frankly embarrassed to be even tenuously associated with *some* of their co-religionists up North.
Lest anyone accuse me of playing the man/woman rather than the ball,please remember that there is a subtle difference between getting at an individual and getting at certain dysfunctionalities in their mindset/worldview.
P.S. I am neither a nationalist or a unionist-just an objectivist.

I have no idea whether or not the Irish state is institutionally sectarian in its attitudes to its Protestant citizens but from personal experience I can categorically confirm that anti-Protestant attitudes, backed up with the implicit threat of republican violence, do exist amongst some Irish Catholics in the border counties. My own experience of this comes from East Donnegal in the mid 1990's.

pakman

What was your experience?

Stan Gebler Davies was a genius manque, objectivist! I miss the man's incredible dry sense of humour- hard to believe he's been dead over a decade.

The report refers to the border areas, which quite clearly differ from the rest of the Republic. Even then , there are differences within the border regions- Louth for instance is very different from East Donegal( which also differs from the south west of the County).

I haven't seen the report, so I can't comment on it, but I know there is a greater gravitation towards NI in East Donegal, and parts of Monaghan particularly, with the proximity of sizeable coomunities of co-religionists just across the border with whom ther are ties of family, emplyment etc. I find this to be much less so in somewhere like Culdaff, which though close to Magilligan in the North, is not close to a large Unionist population with which it can interact.

I don't assume all Southern prods to be pro-Orange (quite the converse), but I do find that where there has been a strong Orange presence then there is a strong protestant community- which might well be perceived as a coldness to "outsiders" by some. Then again, I know a cuople of Donegal Orangemen who go to Rossknowlagh on Saturday, and the GAA match on Sunday - a rare breed perhaps, but interesting. Orangeism was strong pre 1920 in the Ulste Counties, Cork and Dublin, though there were lodges in Wicklow, Leitrim, Louth and Longford as well . It collapsed in the two cities, but survived in the three Ulster counties and Leitrim.It was -in a protestant sense- an ecumenical organisation, which bonded Presbyterian, Methodist, and Episcopalian together. Masonry, though performing a similar function, was more class restrictive, and less specifically Protestant, so could not be( nor did it want to be)the fulcrum of a Protestant or British comunity. And why should such a thing have been necessary in the Free State anyway? Simple, really. Protestants were portrayed asthe fifth column during the IRA campaign, as Peter Hart's work clearly shows. There were instances of anti-Protestant sectarianism during the more recent IRA campaign as well in Monaghan and Donegal, with the staggeringly ineffectual efforts of the Republic during the 1970s to defeat the IRA showing it's citizens that they would be better keeping their heads down
I hope it is an uncontentious statement to say that where Protestants have been able to operate as a community in the South they have done so, and have perhaps suffered indirect discrimination by reason of them not participating fully in society or politics. Where they aren't numerically strong they have become incorporated into general society, which hasn't needed to make gestures in an institutional sense to them. And since most Protestants in Ireland tend to be in geographical pockets, they fall somewhere between these two types of behaviour.

What is interesting, is the growth in protestantism in the South by reason of economic immigration of people, often from Africa, who have absolutely no political or cultural baggage, who are challenging both Protestant and RC prejudices and perceptions. it is fascinating to see the dispute in Howth Presbyterian Church where the (Northern ) minister was criticisewd by the longstanding church members for a style of ministry which was attractive to economic migrants- especially from S Africa-but they felt was too evangelical, and not sufficiently ecumenical.

Interesting, David.

'Twas. Good post DB.

I believe Sergeant is currently the sole protestant TD, although I think there were one or two others in the last Dail (Ivan Yates springs to mind) and Martin Mansergh remains a major player despite not landing a seat.

Mansergh is in the Senate. I'm pretty sure Seymour Crawford (FG, Cavan-Monaghan) is a Presbyterian. I think Jan O'Sullivan (Lab, Limerick East) is Protestant (her biography states that she went to Villiers School in Limerick), but I wouldn't swear to it, and Mildred Fox (Independent but essentially FF, Wicklow) may be as well.

There was a Unionist candidate in the Dublin North by-election back in 1998(?) when Ray Burke stood down. I think he got 100-odd votes out of maybe 30,000.

Irish Times says report shows that Protestant community-based organisations feel their cultural traditions are not valued, and were discriminated against as they failed to attract funding for community infrastructure. There is also low-level intimidation through graffiti.

The situation for displaced republican families appears to be worse, where they experienced hostility and exclusion.

Travellers suffered the worst of all. No surprise there.

It also found that the border "ruined" the economy of the border area and the government did little to help.

Having not a drop of Ulster blood in me, I can only say that my experience of talking to border people from both sides of the religious divide is the biggest issue was not discrimination but marrying within your own religion. Whatever you do, don't bring home a Catholic.

Rebecca,
"Protestants are under represented in the Dail, there are more dogs than protestants in the gardai, and any protestants who do raise their head above the parapet are simply not taken seriously."

Maybe you can explain why Protestants are hugely overrepresented in solicitor and barrister profession.

By they way, I can tell you for a fact that southern Protestants won't be very happy with you demanding they take the more menial job of Garda.

There's as many southern Protestants who want to become members of an Garda as there are who want to be unionists.

"Whatever you do, don't bring home a Catholic/Protestant" as the case may be.

FYI:
A report by the Irish Council of Churches found that "there were many congregations with no refugees, asylum seekers and immigrants, some with a few (ie one or two families) and there were some (under 20) with a significant presence. This was concentrated in a number of Presbyterian, Methodist and joint Methodist-Presbyterian congregations. There were only two Church of Ireland parishes where a significant presence was found."

"There is some indication that part of this presence in Protestant congregations is a transient one. This is for a couple of reasons: firstly, people moving on to more ‘congenial’ churches - often black majority churches; and secondly, because of the nature of the refugee and asylum seeker phenomenon, people moving on or being moved on to other parts of the country, leaving the country, and so on."

"We found that some congregations were allowing their premises to be used, particularly by black majority churches. There have been a few cases of tension over the use of property. There seemed little interaction in most cases between ‘host’ and ‘guest’. Cultural difference and different worship styles were inhibiting interaction."

"There were one or two stories of racism. There were stories of joint worship events in some towns. In some situations clergy had developed a wider ministry to refugees, asylum seekers and immigrants, sometimes ecumenically and sometimes through secular bodies.

"Schools are one area where immigrants may impact with Protestant churches. We came across one Church of Ireland school where one third of the pupils were from an immigrant background."

This last par is very interesting because many middle-class Irish Protestants aren't overjoyed at this prospect.

There are only two options to avoid this as many people do: Irish language schools or fee-paying schools.

One of the reasons why the Gaelscoileanna are so popular is they are government funded and free but are almost exclusively middle-class. I know there are exceptions like in Ballymun.

Rebecca -

Why didn't you mention the fact that Trinity is massively over represented in the Seanad precicely because of it traditional links to Protestants? Trinity College has three Seanad seats while the far larger number of graduates of NUI Dublin, Cork, Galway and Maynooth share three seats between them? Two of their three Senators are very high profile Protestants and among the most popular politicians in the country (Norris and Mr. Burns). Martin Manseragh is also a very high profile Protestant senator.

What sets these three apart is that they are are all easily linked to their religion in a public way. People easily identify Trinity senators as protestants because thats precisely what they were hoped to be. In his role as advisor to successive governments, Manseragh's religion has been touted as of benefit in dealings with Northern Protestants.

But beyond these three it is not easy to identify the religion of any of our Oireachtas members. No amout of googling seems to tell us anything about their religion - why? Because obviously no one with access to the internet deems it to be in any way relevant. I had completely forgotten/never knew that Trevor Sargent was a Protestant. I had just assumed that there are more.

And with 4 oireacteas members (at the very least) out of a total of 216 I don't see how that can in anyway be protrayed as under-representation. If there are 5 then there they are over represented.

No one is saying we're whiter than white - there are idiots everywhere, but it is just wrong to suggest that there is an equivalence between the chasms in society in the North and what passes for normality in the Republic, Britain or the majority of the western societies.

And as for the lack of Protestants in the Guards (I would love to see some evidence to suggest that is is in anyway due to discrimination rather than lack of interest), maybe they've their hands full in over-representing themselves in positions higher up the Criminal Justice System tree, m'lord? ;)

George -

Maybe you can explain why Protestants are hugely overrepresented in solicitor and barrister profession.

Rats! you beat me to it!

I'm pretty sure Seymour Crawford (FG, Cavan-Monaghan) is a Presbyterian. I think Jan O'Sullivan (Lab, Limerick East) is Protestant (her biography states that she went to Villiers School in Limerick), but I wouldn't swear to it, and Mildred Fox (Independent but essentially FF, Wicklow) may be as well.

Oh - looks like the Protestants ARE over represented in the Oireachtas.

"And as for the lack of Protestants in the Guards (I would love to see some evidence to suggest that is is in anyway due to discrimination rather than lack of interest),"

Wow, the same reason there were no Catholics in the RUC. They mustn't have been discriminated against after all!!

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT suggesting this to be true. I'm merely making the observation that the same sort of denials were made about them not wanting to join in, yet securing their representation through "positive discrimination" was seen as a major goal up here. Maybe the Garda needs to actively encourage participation from Protestants rather than dismiss it as "not an issue" ;)

Beano,
no disrespect to our police force, but I can assure you that your average Southern Protestant
is too far up what Mary Harney calls the "value chain" to consider a position with the Gardai.

You don't spend thousands upon thousands in fees to Andrews and the like to then see your son or daughter plod off to Templemore for 18 months instead of Trinners.

Rugby and a yard of ale, not GAA and Guinness.

Beano -

Scratch beneath the surface and I think you'll find that having no interest in joining the guards has little or nothing to do with religion, and more to do with socio-ecomomic groups and geography. The most obvious being the fact that most Protestants hail from the cities. Guards in general, don't.

It is easy to draw simple lines between the dots as you see them, but it doesn't mean you're painting an accurate picture. If there is an issue how come it takes Northern Protestants to point it out. With ample representation in the national Parliament you'd think that our citizens would be able to highlight it themselves - like Northern Catholics did?

Ringo, I'm not sure how accurate your points - socio-economic and urban.rural are , but there's a flaw in your logic -

Small minorities learn to keep their heads down.
Larger minorities can be more vocal.

So with 40 odd % Northern RCs were/are in a considerably stronger position.

Small minorities aren't usually seen as a threat, large minorities are. Hence events in the North.
So is there is some anti-protestant discrimination in the ROI with a tiny % I have to wonder what would happen if there was a 32 county Ireland with a 20% and assertive protestant minority.

George
"but are almost exclusively middle-class."

Not sure if I agree there, apart from obvious places in N.Dublin like you pointed out i'm sure there are schools around the country which are not exclusively middle-class.

Beano
A couple of times you have mentioned "excuses" being used in the south which you say were used in the North in the past. There's a basic flaw in your comparison, Ireland (the state) has a pretty much normal soceity, NI does not. A comparison between the two just doesn't work.

maca,
gaelscoileanna are seen as schools of high attainment today and are more and more the preserve of the middle class. I am sure there are exceptions throughout the country but for many middle-class Irish Protestants and Catholics it is the cheap option to fee paying institutions.

Good education surrounded by middle-class peers.

Davros,
slight correction on your figure. Protestants of all denominations make up 16% of Ireland's population not 20%.

In the Irish Republic, there are now more Muslims and Orthodox Christians than there are respective Presbyterians and Methodists. By 2016 this will be down to 12% and there will be more Poles than Church of Ireland. Times are changing.

Davros -

you can split society what ever way you want to create a minority. Dividing Catholics and Protestants in the Republic is contrived division. The two groups are essentially homogenous. This is not to say that the Republic is a homogenous society - there are divisions and no doubt discrimiation based on religion, ethnicity etc. It is just that the old Catholic/Protestant fault line is no longer significant.

I take it by you're response that you agree that the Protestant members of the Oireachtas haven't made any allegations of discrimination. You say that perhaps as a small minority they are keeping their heads down.

Are you really suggesting that the Protestant TD's and Senators are shamefully failing their co-religists by turning a blind eye to discrimiation? If so, then obviously the CofI and the other Churches are also playing dumb? That's ludicrous to be honest. Especially considering how vocal smaller minorities such as travellers, asylum seekers, refugees, Muslim groups have been on this same issue.

PS - Ever heard a Guard with a Dublin accent on the television?

But do you agree with the points I made George and do you understand my concerns ? If there's already some discrimination against a tiny minority who keep their heads down in the ROI then what would happen in a 32 county Ireland with a sizeable and assertive minority ?

Maca, George -

Now if only we could get a poster by the name of John Lennon we'd be set.....

Ringo - I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Dublin and a Cork accent, sorry. As I said, I don't know enough to deal with your urban/rural and socio-economic claims. I'm not disputing them, relax.

What I am pointing out is that your comparison between a tiny minority in the ROI and a big minority in NI is seriously flawed.

Davros -
My point regarding the Catholics in the North is in no way central to my arguments, so we've got a few crossed wires.

All I'm saying is that without the input from northern Protestants drawing ill-fitting parallels with their own juristicition (obviously guilty of this myself) , this is a non-issue.

If the CofI, elected representatives or any group representing Protestants here decides to make an issue out of this then I'll support them all the way. As leaders of the Protestant community here it is for them to decide if there is a problem - and in the absence of any issues being raised I'll repeat the claim that there is no problem here.

I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Dublin and a Cork accent, sorry

The Dublin one is the one that sounds a bit like English ;)

Davros,
the closer you get to the border the greater the divisions. From talking to people from the Irish Republic part of Ulster there still seems to be the attitude of "each to their own" with Protestants looking north and Catholics south. The border is the main cause of isolation for the Protestant community rather than any state-induced discrimination.

In Dublin, where I grew up on a 50/50 estate in Dunlaoghaire nobody gives a toss what religion you are. They really don't. It has got so bad/good people don't even know or care about the religion of the new people who move in.

There is no discrimination and, to be honest, I would be more worried about the nastiness and division of northern society spreading south than the south introducing new forms of discrimination to the north.

we've got a few crossed wires

As ever, thanks Ringo,
God bless.

george - we were looking at the Borders, so the fact that things work well in Parts of Dublin doesn't alter the issue of whether there are problems in the border areas, any more than one could use good relations in a "nice" wealthy suburb to claim that there aren't problems elsewhere in NI.

The Dublin one is the one that sounds a bit like English ;)

Hundreds of thousands of people that talk like John Taylor ? Yikes, thats ensured I'll never vote for a United Ireland LOL

These security codes .... doing my head in. And it wasn't, to start with, in a particularly good state LOL

George

I have no idea about the legal profession in the south, I am just a prod living in the south, I don't claim to be an expert on the subject of protestants in the south.

This is symptomatic of the protestant experience in the south, you make a criticism of the irish state and about five people jump on you.

JD

"And now you're alleging the use of intimidation at TCD because you set up a unionist society. And once again you refuse to say anything."

But surely that fact that I am said it here, using my own name is evidence. Both myself and the guy who set up the unionist society in TCD before me suffered intimidation. If you want details, e-mail me but I am not prepared to discuss events on a public forum.

Objectivist

Interesting argument, getting involved with southern unionism is addictive....yeah, so addictive I gave it up after 2 years because I was sick of devoting so much of my time to nothing and getting nothing but crap back.

This is symptomatic of the protestant experience in the south, you make a criticism of the irish state and about five people jump on you.

and if one of them isn't a Protestant you'll complain? ;) (only joking Rebecca)

and if one of them isn't a Protestant you'll complain? ;) (only joking Rebecca)

That's bad Ringo, Hang your head in shame LOL

Davros,
Dunlaoghaire also was the AIDS capital of Europe in the 80s, had a huge heroin problem and unlike other parts of the Irish Republic a Protestant working class. It is probably also home to the largest contingent of Protestants outside of Ulster. You are also forgetting that the overwhelming majority of southern Protestants outside of Ulster live in wealthy suburbs because they are wealthy. That is the way it is. We don't have Protestant ghettoes here.

Dunlaoghaire is probably one of the only places you'll find working class Irish Protestants although most of them would now be middle-class by the rest of the country's standards.

Anyway, you asked me for an answer on a perceived (no statement in the report of it being actual) discrimination in community funding for Protestants in border counties and what this means for overall discrimination of any future Protestant minority and I gave you the reply in that context. I don't understand why you suddenly moved the goalposts back to the border.

Rebecca,
I hope you now know a little more about southern Protestants and the Irish legal profession. Have a look at the Law Graduates from Trinity if you need any further convincing.

i was surprised the first time I came to Ireland by the amount of importance that people attach to what religion (or branch of the same one really) someone is, this often being deducted from someone's name, sport they play or school they went to.

It does seem to me that on first meeting the Irish are looking at each other trying to see if they are one of us or one of them, mostly for harmless ribbing purposes if anything but it did make me aware that a lot of people in Ireland consider themselves as separate in many ways from a lot of other people in Ireland. I get the feeling, and this is only from my own experiences that the Catholics believe they are the proper Irish and that the protestants are in some way not quite as Irish.
I was also surprised by the amount of jingoism, amongst the younger catholic Irish especially, with a good deal of it directed against england almost to the point of obsession. I haven't spent a lot of time with protestant Irish so havent had chance to study them as subjects yet :) but they do seem a lot less loud about being Irish and so may feel a bit intimidated in some way and feel that some of the anti english sentiments are being directed at them.
So i can see that many in the protestant community feel its an easyer life to just sit back and not get involved.

That's interesting griff. Question though, how did you manage to tell catholics & protestants apart or did you just go around asking people? Seriously!
Cos to be honest I wouldn't have a clue who is protestant or who is catholic. And I wouldn't be bothered asking. And neither would anyone I know.

"I get the feeling, and this is only from my own experiences that the Catholics believe they are the proper Irish and that the protestants are in some way not quite as Irish."

I think your feeling meter needs calibration. ;)

I don't know anyone who thinks that way, I don't know WHY anyone would think that way, doesn't make sense to me, I mean, what does it have to do with religion??

"Question though, how did you manage to tell catholics & protestants apart or did you just go around asking people?"
its just my experience thats all, i was supprised when people would mention other peoples religion when talking about them.

"I don't know anyone who thinks that way, I don't know WHY anyone would think that way, doesn't make sense to me"
doesnt make sense to me either but i do know people that think that way becasue thats how they have been brought up.

Fair enough. Can I ask where you are located ... very roughly?

my experiences have been around the dublin area although i don't live in ireland at the moment.
as i said before i think a lot of the them and us business is used for harmless taking the mick but it is much more apparent than it is in england where i hadn't experienced such a divide, although there is the class divide etc but thats way off topic.

Davros

``Sadly (dual sovereignty) wouldn't and couldn't work Billy. In that case there would be winners and losers and we end up all losing.’’

Who would be the losers? We’d have Dublin rule and Westminster rule. If unionism has its union, it’s not good enough that it should also insist on denying nationalism a direct line to its national government too.

``When you talk of Joint Sovereignty I assumed you meant joint Sovereignty between Westminster and Dáil over all 32 counties and associated off-shore Islands?’’

What, as Westminster having 50% sovereignty over the Republic of Ireland? What on earth made you think I was talking about that? What possible sense would there be in such a set-up? There is close to zero appetite in Britain for renewed sovereignty over the 26, and even less in the Republic. Nobody in Britain or the 26 wants the scenario you posit. Why on earth should such a mendacious suggestion be taken seriously? As a figleaf for c.800,000 unionists? At the expense of the national consenses of 65 million people on these islands? Jesus, you lack nothing in your sense of self-importance!

No, you know very well I’m talking about these two sovereign governments coming together and formalising dual sovereignty over the Irish counties that are in the UK. On one hand you have the sovereign power, the UK, which has declared its lack of selfish or strategic or economic interest in NI, and through the consent principle has signalled its exit strategy. Then you have the Republic of Ireland, which has made a constitutional declaration of its ``firm will’’ to see unification, and which has already been ceded a guaranteed consultative role and even some minor (though possibly embryonic) executive powers in the north by the sovereign power through a series of international agreements.

Dual sovereignty over NI between the Republic of Ireland and the UK is the way the wind is blowing, because that’s the way the grown-ups want it. We’ve seen it with things like waterways, food safety and all those other baubles of ’98. Seven years on its joint policing protocols – and not a peep of dissent. Expect to see northern seats in the Dail within a couple of years. It’s motorways and waterways and telecommunications. Next thing it’ll be all-island health strategies. We’re already seeing cross-border GP services in south Armagh and north Donegal. Give it a few years and we’ll be talking about cross-border catchment areas for general hospitals. Good luck to the unionists who will try to argue against that.

Why NOT dual sovereignty?

``The MOPE bit was a Play on words’’

I know, and it was funny the first few times. It IS very witty. Unfortunately it seems to be morphing into a rhetorical guillotine, dragged up at every mention of any kind of discrimination. It’s just getting a bit old at this stage, IMHO.

griff
"as i said before i think a lot of the them and us business is used for harmless taking the mick but it is much more apparent than it is in england where i hadn't experienced such a divide, although there is the class divide etc but thats way off topic."

Unfortunatly i've experienced the opposite in England but we all have our own experiences I suppose ;)

"Unfortunatly i've experienced the opposite in England but we all have our own experiences I suppose ;)"
do you mean between english people or directed, presumably at you, anti-irish / catholic feeling?

Sorry, I meant directed at me. But I guess you meant between English people? If so i'd agree with you, as I haven't seen any of that during my visits.

I think we've all experienced that maca although it's not like it used to be.

On my last visit to England one shopkeeper even said she "loved my accent" because I sounded just like that lovely gardener on the telly.

maca, yes i meant between english people, sorry to hear you have been on the receiving end.

'If so i'd agree with you, as I haven't seen any of that during my visits.'

There's serious Black/White issues at the very least. They've enough race issues to be getting on with to satisfy their need for prejudice.

"On my last visit to England one shopkeeper even said she "loved my accent" because I sounded just like that lovely gardener on the telly."

Charlie Dimmock?

"I hope you now know a little more about southern Protestants and the Irish legal profession. Have a look at the Law Graduates from Trinity if you need any further convincing."

so you are assuming that most people who graduate from TCD in law are protestants? Maybe in the 50s and before but certainly not these days.

If a disproportionate number of prod lawyers in the south means everything is fine surely the disproportionate number of RC lawyers in OWC means it's all great up hear too :0)

"There's serious Black/White issues at the very least. They've enough race issues to be getting on with to satisfy their need for prejudice."

that post has a beautiful symmetry about it somehow.

I wish people would stop this nonsense about dual sovereignty. If you've dual sovereignty:
- have you broken yellow or solid white lines on the side of the road?
- do you receive benefits from London or Dublin?
- do you have the British or Irish Health Service?
- is the dialling code +44 or +353?
... basically, if Dublin and London don't agree (for example, on suspension of the Assembly), who decides?

Dual sovereignty inevitably means NI decides, ergo it is the same as independence (perhaps with joint Heads of State a la Andorra, but that's where the 'joint' bit ends).

If you want to debate that, debate it. At least then we'd be talking about something feasible, if not necessarily desirable.

"Charlie Dimmock?" :-)

Others were convinced I was an American. It must be the non-descript south county Dublin drawl.

Rebecca,
"so you are assuming that most people who graduate from TCD in law are protestants? Maybe in the 50s and before but certainly not these days."

No, I'm assuming that Protestants are as over-represented in terms of population in the legal profession as they are underrepresented on the beat. I figured the Law Faculty in Trinity would be a good place for you to start to check that up assumption rather than trotting all the way up the quays to Kings Inn or the Four Courts.

By the way, I heard that there are a total 14 protestants in the Gardai. You might be able to use that figure north of the border to say how bad it is down here. I say name and shame the 14 underachievers myself.

Davidbrew,
are there a disproportionate number of RC lawyers north of the border?

"I heard that there are a total 14 protestants in the Gardai."

Where do people actually get these figures anyway? Just curious as the Gardaí wouldn't release any figure when I asked ;)

I got my figure of 14 from a Newsletter article last year maca. Strangely enough, they weren't parading it as a badge of honour as southern Protestants would.

Any time I've asked the Gardai anything I got the feeling all they wanted to do was arrest me.

bay jasus all these micks with protestant friends given the miniscule proportion of prods in ROI-- surely you must know each other??

Usual responses from the great unwashed when challenged about the cleansing of the prod from ROI

It did not happen

It was a long time ago

We don`t do it now (hardly any left to do it to)

Sure they deserved it any way

to this we can now add :-
Sure they are all barristers there`s none left to join the Garda.

Try Peter Hartes research for a small segement of the truth

"bay jasus all these micks with..."

Careful barnshee ...

Ah Barnshee,
(at the risk of being repetitive but I only bring this up if unionists start with the auld ethnic cleansing stuff.)

I suppose your arguement why southern Protestants don't believe they suffered ethnic cleansing is because there are none left.

As I said earlier on this thread, I can only speak for Dublin where the majority of Irish Protestants outside Ulster live.

Total number of Dublin Protestants forced out of their homes: zero.

I compare this to Belfast 1920-1922 (source Baldron, an Illustrated History of Belfast) who, citing relief organisations in the city at the time, said 23,000 Catholics, one quarter of the Catholic population of Belfast, were forced out of their homes.

Total number of Belfast Catholics forced out of their homes: 23,000

I've yet to even hear an unionist admit there was a Belfast pogrom. Well, was there one Barnshee or did the relief organisations make it up?

How many Catholics would you estimate were forced out of their homes?

Ironic isn't it? It's the northern taigs and the southern prods who share the common negative experiences.

barnshee -

Have you any evidence/testimonies of our Protestant citizens complaining about their treatment at the hands of the state or the Catholic majority due to their religion?

Any idea why the over-represented minority haven't voiced their concerns on the issue in the Oireachtas (that's the parliament)?

answers on a postage stamp please....

I've yet to even hear an unionist admit there was a Belfast pogrom.

Really ? Shows how few you talk to and/or how little attention you pay to what is said when it doesn't suit. Considering that you raise the issue every time that maltreatment of protestants is mentioned, I'm amazed you can say this.

What % of Cork protestants upped and left George and how does it compare to the % of Catholics who were forced out of their homes in Belfast ?

Secondly - how do the outrageous events in Belfast justify or excuse in any way ANY injustice done to protestants in your country during the same period of history ?

Your Cork ying to my Dublin yang Davros. I commend you.

Just one thing before I try an answer: Upped and left or were forced out of their homes? There is a difference. I upped and left Dublin in 1992, I didn't have a mob chasing me down the road.

IJP

Briefly, and very first-draftly:

If you've dual sovereignty:

- have you broken yellow or solid white lines on the side of the road?

I don't care. It's only paint.

- do you receive benefits from London or Dublin?

From wherever you want. But there would have to be cooperation (it is joint authority, after all).

- do you have the British or Irish Health Service?

You use the one you want. Presumably there would be cooperation all the way along (i.e., if one "side" is full, the other steps in), so no-one would be turned away (better than both atm?!).

- is the dialling code +44 or +353?

Create a new one. Whoever gets the road paint, the others get the dialing code. :)

... basically, if Dublin and London don't agree (for example, on suspension of the Assembly), who decides?

The people actually in NI.

That's rough, I know, but how'd I do?

What % of Cork protestants upped and left George and how does it compare to the % of Catholics who were forced out of their homes in Belfast ?

I see what you're saying Davros, but the sheer weight of numbers also speak volumes.

That said, it was to Ireland's shame that it happened at all. I'd apologise for it if I thought it would be worth anything to those wronged.

Dav
"What % of Cork protestants upped and left George and how does it compare to the % of Catholics who were forced out of their homes in Belfast ?"

Geroge is right there. 'Upped & left' vs 'forced'.
'forced' vs 'forced' would be a fairer comparison.

"Secondly - how do the outrageous events in Belfast justify or excuse in any way ANY injustice done to protestants in your country during the same period of history ?"

They don't in ANY way justify or excuse it.

maca
where I live we cheerfully regard ourselves as micks and prods ( the micks and prods who socialise together that is)

When we are seraching for the poor micks displaced from of Belfast would you ever have a look for the 17000 prods driven out of Londondery since 1968 (perhaps they all got lost together)

They don't in ANY way justify or excuse it.

Then how come george raises the Belfast pogroms every time the issue of wrongs done to protestants in the Free State and ROI is discussed ?

I made the point before - Dublin and Belfast were so dissimilar that it's dishonest to compare them.
I could make just as meaningless a point by asking what % of Belfast Catholics were killed in the pogroms and what % of the Protestant residents of Altnaveigh were killed by Frank Aiken's RC Militia ( I'm deliberately presenting Altnaveigh in this manner to illustrate how one can cherry pick history to support a shaky case )

Holy God ....

I wish Mick would just link to all of the old threads about southern Prods. Much of the stuff here is repetitive nonsense.

For the record, I am a southern Prod - half Dublin and half culchie (border region). Neither sides of my family have ever experienced discrimination, and are all relatively proud members of a modern European country (i.e. apart from those who emigrated to England .... joke!).

Discrimination can be measured in many different ways, but I'm hard pressed to think of one measure that applies to southern prods;

- employment: higher than the average
- wealth: higher than the average
- economics: need I list all of the Prod-owned firms? Admittedly most are now owned by multinationals, but their 'ethos' remains unchanged,
- education: at least as high (I have no data, but since there is no real Prod 'underclass' I guess logically our average would be higher)
- violence: you wha'?
- sectarianism: none
- state recognition of the Protestant dimension: probably much higher than our 5% justifies
- ostacism: none, on the contrary, we're actually very fashionable!

I could go on, but the story would be the same. The myths about southern Prod 'victimhood' are an invention of certain elements (yes, the bigotted ones) of northern Protestantism. They are wrong, they are politically motivated, they misrepresent us and our lives. Don't pass any heed of them.

Barnshee
"where I live we cheerfully regard ourselves as micks and prods"

I'm delighted for you, but it was still an insult. As was your insinuation that we are lying when we say we have protestant friends.

Graham Norton tells a different story Stephen.

JD

The people actually in NI.

That's rough, I know, but how'd I do?

You're spot on - that proves my point.

All these issues would be decided by the 'people actually in NI'.

Which is de facto independence.

‘’From 4 years living in the republic I don't think there's any real anti protestant feeling in the south. That is if you keep your mouth shut!''

Rebecca,
This one does not wash.How does that square with 'shrinking violets' like Shane Ross,Bono,Walton Empey,and David Norris? I would welcome some concrete validation of the above statement.
Here you are faced with the conundrum that your cherished paradigm of ROI anti-Protestantism is effectively invalidated by the fact that Protestants in the ROI don’t actually complain of this.Predictably ,in order to circumvent this you construct a (not very convincing) mirage of Protestants cowed into keeping their mouths shut.

''Protestants are under represented in the Dail, there are more dogs than protestants in the gardai, and any protestants who do raise their head above the parapet are simply not taken seriously.''

I can see what way your mind is working.Occam's Razor would tend to ascribe the virtual absence of complaints about sectarianism from southern Prods to the absence of such sectarianism.Please note how ,at a subconscious level, you mendaciously
phase shift this situation to the more worldview-friendly (your worldview that is) model of Protestants keeping their heads below the parapet in order to validate your 'sectarianism' hypothesis.
A well known principle of logic is that for a hypothesis to be valid it must be theoretically disprovable.On this basis your discourse falls down over and over again through your vague generalities and lack of attributable sources.

''A protestants treatment in the south relies on where they live, how wealthy they are and how outspoken they are.''

Proof please.

''Quite simply because protestants feel too intimidated to get involved in politics.’

Please back up this statement.

''Lets put it this way Jimmy, can you think of any protestant politicians?''

Off the top of my head,Trevor Sargent,David Norris,Shane Ross,Jan O'Sullivan,and Seymour Crawford all of who,by definition,must have got a substantial vote from Catholics-with the possible exception of DN who I think was an appointee.

''This is symptomatic of the protestant experience in the south, you make a criticism of the irish state and about five people jump on you.''

It is all becoming clearer.Please see how you are subconsciously trying to construct a sophistic ROI-is-antiProtestant worldview.If you express a contentious viewpoint in a public forum you are bound to get opposing viewpoints -those expressed here have fallen well within the terms of civilised debate..Note how the eminently reasonable process of expressing such views is distorted by use of the word 'jump' into something aggressive and unreasonable.
Let us extrapolate further.The inference here that any southern Protestant criticism of the state *must* be greeted with respectful silence to invalidate the sectarianism hypothesis.Ergo any publicly expressed disagreement with such criticism is definitively offside and sectarian.Notice how you are raising the bar for southern nonsectarianism in order to be mendaciously autohypnotised into the paradigm of perceived grievance.

I would suggest the following experiment:
Set up a pseudonym,make a comment here posing as an NI Catholic complaining about sectarianism,and sit back and watch the reaction.I daresay you would be ‘jumped on’ by at least 5 people!
The fact is you are typical of a kind of individual find the spurious model of nasty,predatorial,majoritarian Catholic south addictively comfortable and tends to get quite prickly with anyone who tries to remove this psychological crutch.

''But surely that fact that I am said it here, using my own name is evidence. Both myself and the guy who set up the unionist society in TCD before me suffered intimidation. If you want details, e-mail me but I am not prepared to discuss events on a public forum.''

This is cynical use of a nonsequitur.Of course if you set up an organisation which takes one particular side in a contentious high profile issue -the North,abortion,immigration etc.-you are bound to attract unwelcome attention from cranks.I'd have no illusions as to what to expect if I moved up to Queens and set up some Republican outfit.

''Interesting argument, getting involved with southern unionism is addictive....yeah, so addictive I gave it up after 2 years because I was sick of devoting so much of my time to nothing and getting nothing but crap back.''

I would contend that 'southern unionism' is an oxymoron.Anyway you misread my posting.I said that the ‘victimology mindset’ was addictive.

You strike me as being laden with the angst of the frustrated crusader who has tried to peddle wares that people simply do not want.The fact is that people in the south,Catholic,Protestant,and other ,are simply not into unionism.Rather than face the distasteful reality of this consumer resistance you predictably hide behind the rationalisations of sectarianism on the Catholic side and cowed silence on the Protestant.
Any unionist who stood for election here got such a derisory vote that it was crystal clear that precious few Protestants could have voted for them.
Incidentally,for clarification,what was your actual political objective vis a vis southern unionism ?
An ROI return to the UK?
The fact is you fervently,in your heart of hearts *want* to believe that there is significant anti-Protestantism in the ROI and will scrape every conceivable barrel in search of affirmation.
The point must also be made (although I am open to revision on this one) that your assaults on sectarianism seem somewhat tunnel visionary insofar as I have yet to see one word of criticism of anti-Catholic sectarianism in NI,past or present, in any of your postings.This suggests a certain ambivalence –to put it at its mildest.

All these issues would be decided by the 'people actually in NI'. Which is de facto independence.

IJP

I said that eventuality would only come about if there was an issue that Dublin or London could not agree upon. If the majority want something, they can still get it. And if that majority remains unionist in its sympathies, then so be it. De facto union.

Other initiatives would be joint authority. I'd insist on the word joint.

As I keep saying: neither UI nor UK. Something other. Joint Sovereignty is one option worth exploring. Independence for NI is another possibility.

In fact the little model I squeezed out manages to include elements of union, UI and independence.

I'm a little surprised you're so resistant to these ideas. Just exercising my political imagination.

''Graham Norton tells a different story Stephen.''
This does not mean that he is right.The views of the utterer of the infamously macabre 'Staying Alive' joke following Maurice Gibb's untimely death need not be taken very seriously.Also it must be pointed out that he launched his career through slagging off RCism -i.e. his appearances in Fr.Ted and his Mother Teresa drag act.
Here again we have the classic Sartrean fallacy (vide supra)of selecting out the one opinionator (among probably 100)that delivers the desired opinion.
As a rule of thumb it is worth reading the contributions in the letters pages of the Irish Times from Southern Protestants whenever this issue comes up-for example after one of David Trimble's rants.These usually go at least 9 to 1 in favour of the ROI.
What we also have here,vis-a-vis,Stephen is characteristic angst towards those irritating southern Prods who simply will not do what's expected of them and whinge away like nobody's business.
Indeed it could be said that such is the scarcity of homegrown Prod malcontents that we have to import .....oops!

The point Objectivist is that I know that Graham Norton is a real person. I have no way of knowing whether Stephen Copeland is a real person and whether he is as he claims a Southern prod, let alone whether or not his family have never met any discrimination.
I'd take certain poster more seriously if they didn't claim that the 26 counties are Utopia.

Objectivist-
you have several times mentioned a 'sartrean fallacy'. Can you explain the expression. I only ever made one attempt at reading anything by Sartre, 'Les Mots' and I didn't get very far.

Davros-
what did Graham Norton say about being a Protestant in the Republic?

Hell hath no fury like an Ulster Unionist diehard whose ROI-is-sectarian contention is faltly contradicted by his southern co-religionists.

Incidentally a letter of mine published in the Bel Tel is of some relevance here:

Dear Sir,
I read with interest Steven King’s recent article ,‘A Tainted Idyll’, which defended David Trimble’s recent anti-R.O.I. philippics.He quite rightly draws attention to the number of prominent Southern Protestants ,many clerics included, who spring to the defence of the Republic and who throw a spanner in the works of the oft-stated Southern-Ireland–is-sectarian mantra.I’m convinced some Unionist commentators want to believe that the South is sectarian,irrespective of the objective facts, and view these said defenders as irritating flies in the ointment.

This being the case the conveniently facile concept of the ‘Uncle Tom’ Southern Prod comes to the rescue – namely that they are spineless sycophants trying to keep onside with their Catholic co-nationals.However peddlers of this line,such as Steven King and Ruth Dudley Edwards, cannot but be impressed by the sheer lack of ‘Uncle Tomness’ of people like Shane Ross and Walton Empey.It’s a bit like describing Fr.Denis Faul as a Unionist lackey when he challenges some Republican myths.

He refers to (without naming) the former T.D.,Ms.Alice Glenn:

‘Only as recently as the 1980s a prominent TD called Irish Protestants "enemies of the people".’

Far be it from me to take up the cudgels for Ms.Glenn but this untruth must not be let pass.Ms.Glenn used the term not against Protestants but as a catch-all term for advocates of the liberal agenda she was then strenuously opposing.

Revealingly David Trimble became quite flustered and defensive when asked by a journalist, in the immediate aftermath of his ‘sectarian/monoethnic/monocultural’ speech, what evidence he could cite to back up his claims. Answer there was none for none was the answer.

End of letter.

FC,
Very simply this loosely involves ,for example if you have to make an important decision,asking for advice only from people whom you know will give the advice you want to hear and then trying to convince yourself afterwards that you made a balanced, informed decision.It also means reinforing your viewpoint by restricting yourself to sources,in the media, etc,that you know will tend to agree with that viewpoint -shinners reading APRN for example.Please don't ask me to outline the exact source-it is so long ago.

Davros-
what did Graham Norton say about being a Protestant in the Republic?

From a couple of articles :

Irish Independent

"Surprisingly, he says that growing up gay in rural Ireland was easier than being a Protestant because he was constantly made to feel different because of his religion."

and

Belfast Telegraph

" In the life story, So Me, Norton said he was aware of his sexuality early on and didn't fit in with other boys at Bandon Grammar School in Cork because of it.
"I donned rugby costumes and clattered down the pitch with the rest of them," he wrote.
"But I was fooling no-one. They were like a pack of animals who smelled blood. It made me feel very excluded and lonely - it's very hard to understand how alienating it is for a boy who can't do what boys are meant to do."
But it appears his religion was more of a stigma.
"I was sent to Protestant schools, so I never knew the neighbourhood kids, who were Catholic. But before I started school the other kids didn't know I was a freak Protestant boy and happily played with me." "

''The point Objectivist is that I know that Graham Norton is a real person. I have no way of knowing whether Stephen Copeland is a real person and whether he is as he claims a Southern prod, let alone whether or not his family have never met any discrimination.''

Wow!.What an accusation to make against poor Stephen who I'm sure will leap to his own defence in due course.This being the case how do we know that you are who/what you say you are.Personally I'm inclined to accept S.C's bona fides for the simple reason that it echoes so closely what I personally hear from 'real life' southern Protestants.
In terms of the central issue here I can ,figuratively-speaking, call as my witnesses,among the southern Protestant population,guys like Martin Mansergh,Shane Ross,and David Armstrong.You can call Graham Norton.
'Nuff said.

''I'd take certain poster more seriously if they didn't claim that the 26 counties are Utopia.''

Who made this claim and when? Utopia it is not.But,having lived in 4 countries,I am inclined to agree with Economist Magazine that it is as good as it gets.

What an accusation to make against poor Stephen who I'm sure will leap to his own defence in due course.

Eh ? What "accusation" and where ? I made an observation. I know that G.N. is a real person.
After the behaviour of the poster who invented Ulsterman - and a few other i.d's - I'm wary of acccepting unsubstantiated claims.

This being the case how do we know that you are who/what you say you are.

You don't. This is the internet. Unless we start a
private correspondence or you see me in the media or meet me in person you have no way of knowing who I am. I could be male or female, I could be in Belfast or Birmingham Alabama. For all I know S.C. could be an i.d you use.

The only thing i'll say about the Norton case is that, in my own opinion, i'd imagine that you'd definitly get heaps more stick over being gay than being protestant. ;))

JD

I'm not being resistant, I'm being realistic.

To simplify the issue, the question is where sovereignty for NI should lie. Should it lie in a) London; b) Dublin; c) both; or d) neither (i.e. Belfast).

I've pointing out that c), in practice, does not work because effectively it becomes d). You've proved i