Norn Iron (Six counties really) bucket team supported by bigots. What a dilemna for Nationalists in this wee non country, non province. Who do we hate most?
The good old BBC ignore the fact that 47% of the poulation in the wee failed statelet do not support in any way this team. They ramble on as if the whole 6 Counties are behind them when in actual fact we always support he other team except when it is England. But then again dont we all watch the 12th celebrations on BBC six counties (a real carnival atmosphere) In the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement all presenters on BBC NI have to wear poppies or they must take upother duties(cleaning the toilet perhaps) for most of November. would like to see any presenter come to work with an Easter Lily on, end of career, methinks!!! But hasn't everything changed in our wee statelet???

there is a BIG difference between the Easter Lily and the Poppy

Yes, quite right of course. One is your symbol... and the other... well... it is their symbol. So none of that then...

The Poppy is not necessarily 'our' symbol. It represents the people who died for a reason but the Easter Lily is nothing else but a sectarian statement.

Neither symbol is original to Ulster... obviously, nor to ireland... both have a rich tradition as political and spiritual symbols. The poppy, in the context of the six counties is not the same as the poppy in the context of the cemetary fields of France where the flower gained its current meaning. Likewise, the lily in the context of Ireland now means something different than it did as a symbol of life and ressurection for hundreds of years. At this point, in this context, both are clearly seen as symbols of each "side" in the conflict. It is at best ignorance, and at worst sectarian to pretend otherwise.

Keeping that in mind... there is no reason why anyone need be offended that someone of the other community wants to wear a symbol. The problem is when public institutions descriminate.

Personally, for a variety of reasons, I find the lilly to be a symbol that I relate to. I do not relate to the poppy as a symbol of war dead... I can easily understand why others do.

Both, or neither... that is the only reasonable course for public bodies.

"Norn Iron (Six counties really) bucket team supported by bigots. What a dilemna for Nationalists in this wee non country, non province. Who do we hate most?"
NI supporters are bigots and yet your dilemma, apparently for all nationalists is "who do we hate most". When was the last time you attended a match at Windsor park to know that the NI support is made up of bigots? How would you explain that for the last few years, on the rare occasion some numbskull fans start singing the sash or anything remotely sectarian they are shouted down by chants of "Green and White Army" or "Nooooorthern Ireland!" ? Pull your prejudiced head out of your backside and take a look before you start condemning us all as bigots.

"The good old BBC ignore the fact that 47% of the poulation in the wee failed statelet do not support in any way this team."

When exactly did you so obviously lose touch with reality? 47% of the population? I presume you're taking that from the percentage of catholics in NI? A number of whom are unionists, and of those that aren't plenty would support Northern Ireland, either instead of, but more likely in addition to the RoI side.

"The poppy, in the context of the six counties is not the same as the poppy in the context of the cemetary fields of France where the flower gained its current meaning."
Interesting, I'm curious as to what meaning it has in the free six counties. If you think it's a "proddy" symbol or something then why not buy one yourself? There were plenty of people from all over this island, from both communities who joined up in WW1, never mind WW2 where not only were there huge numbers from NI joining, but people from the Free State or (whatever it was called at the time), despite the pettymindedness of their government, put any resentment aside and joined the British army to fight and if necessary die, for a cause they knew was right? These people shouldn't be forgotten any more than anyone else who gave their lives for our freedom.

Come to think of it, I wish the BBC would give people like you coverage. They're quite happy to discuss sectarian bigots on the unionist side of the divide. Perhaps if they showed people with views as narrowminded, prejudiced and ignorant as yours people would realise it's not all one-sided. Keep up the good work!

It seems like you were refering to me with the "people like you" comment. Which is of course a bit odd since you know nothing about me (play the ball). However, more interesting is the tendency of some folks to accuse someone of being a bigot or what have you... when if you actually look at my suggestion it is in favor of plurality. Notice that I supported people being able to show, and wear whatever symbol they wanted in the private context.

I also suggested that I supported an openness to either symbol in the public context, rather than to banning just one. This plurality, in contrast to the perspective voiced by others, that one communities or groups symbol should be banned, gets me labeled with the clear inference that I am a "sectarin bigot." Now isn't that an odd label to attach to the person in this chain of discussion who supported the pluralistic and least restrictive option?

To re-cap... my perspective is wrong, only one symbol should be allowed, and more or less screw what the other community thinks of that... is that about right? Yet, I'm narrowminded... charming.

My apologies poitin, I wasn't referring to the whole poppy/lily thing.

The "people like you" was directed at stephenfuller, clearly, from his posts, someone who thinks only dirty prods can be sectarian bigots... which to me is indeed narrowminded.

My apologies as well then... sorry for confusing that.

StephenFuller:
as for your allegations that " all presenters on BBC NI have to wear poppies or they must take upother duties(cleaning the toilet perhaps) for most of November."

I refer you to The BT article which states:

However the BBC pointed out that no-one within the organisation was forced to wear a poppy.

A spokesman said: "The BBC guidelines on the wearing of national emblems allows for presenters in Northern Ireland to wear a shamrock on St Patrick's Day if they wish.

The decision to wear a poppy on television programmes is for the individual concerned to make, provided the presenter judges that wearing it would be appropriate."

On the subject of hyperlink
I'd be interested to hear any views (especially from those who post on the site)on the etiquette of publishing the names and email addresses of nationalist dissenters on that site by the site moderator.

Apologies for the omissions in the last post,I'm not very technical. The site is Our Wee Country and the link is http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4914

On the subject of OWC
I'd be interested to hear any views (especially from those who post on the site)on the etiquette of publishing the names and email addresses of nationalist dissenters on that site by the site moderator.

Fermanagh Young Unionist,
"It represents the people who died for a reason but the Easter Lily is nothing else but a sectarian statement."

Rubbish unless you actually believe World War 1 was about the "liberty of small nations". Please explain then how the British Army tried a year after the war ended to crush Ireland's democratically elected parliament.

There are very good reasons for Irish people not to remember and honour the occupiers of their country.

Remember the Irish fools who went to be British cannon fodder as the Irish fools they were maybe.

It seems to me that you believe in freedom for small nations but not the ones under British rule.
Why is that?

Is it because you believe the Irish aren't a separate people so don't deserve to be a nation.

As for your comment about the Easter Lily - beneath contempt.

Well for a start the "deomcratically elected" parliament was the exclusive preserve of Sinn Fein. Crushing this illegal assembly was an act which protected the liberty of a small nation: Ulster ;)
The poppy remembers those, British and Irish men who gave their lives for a noble cause in both world wars, especially those Irishmen who were able to overcome the pettyminded hatered inherent in the Irish government at the time, to fight against the Nazis.

Perhaps you can answer a question for me though. Is the Lily exclusively about remembering the acts of 1916, or is it about all those who have 'given their lives to the republican cause'?

Regarding the recent comments concerning the Northern Ireland football team,

I have been a loyal supporter of this team since the age of 7 when my father (a Catholic to my Protestant, shock friggin horror!) first took me to Windsor Park to watch the Green and White army take to the field, just as he had done with a general mix of Catholic and Protestant friends from a young age. Now 22, I am proud to say I have missed only a handful of home internationals in the last 8 years, gladly parting with my hard earned to buy block-booking tickets for Qualifier series' and regularly sporting the colours when out and about.

For all intents and purposes, I am a died in the wool Northern Ireland supporter, and according to some contributors to this great site, a sectarian bigot. Dont mind me, but I wholeheartedly resent and refute this blantantly unfounded allegation, which I consider to be the stuff of nothin short of mis/ill-informed sectarianism in its own right.

I cannot deny that there has been sectarian behaviour at Windsor before, however I, and the individuals that usually attend with me have had no part in it. In the last number of years the Irish Football Association has engaged in a MAJOR and highly successful campaign to rid NI internationals of whatever sectarian element that existed. Of course, this I know because I am not prepared to base my opinons on a narrow mind and the hearsay of others, I actually ATTEND the f*cking matches! (apologies there folks, got a little carried away lol)

For me, and many others, who attend, going to the match, singing your heart out and supporting the team (for "ever more", no less lol) is a matter of passion for football and inoffensive patriotism toward the country they were born into and therefore regard as their own, being represented on the pitch.

Granted, many born into this country are of the belief that it should not have come into being in the first place and would struggle at best to drum up support for one or indeed any of its representative sports teams. Being not of narrow mind, I can respect this, and would simply encourage others to do the same for me and mine; while also reminding them that they are more than welcome to attend at Windsor at any time, even if they wish to remain neutral and just enjoy the match. I know you'd receive a personal thumbs up from a friend of mine who recently attended his first NI international, dressed in full Green and White Army uniform! (and who greatly enjoyed himself throughout, despite suffering from what our detractors clearly believe what we the Windsor faitful apparently regard as the handicap of being a Roman Catholic and having an inherently Irish name!)

For the record I managed to get a "We Exist" wristband today and now wear it with pride. To any other supporters reading, make sure you get one!

DanDaMan

P.S. To people who say that we shouldnt have a team as we dont perform to the highest level, I say, there's only one world champion at any one time, and Northern Ireland, just a few decades ago was closer to that staus than most countries in history!

P.P.S. On a more serious note, to those who use the disgraceful behaviour directed at Neil Lennon several years ago, I actually ATTENDED the match, I was THERE, and I was sat in the more vocal West Stand, and can say that there is no excuse for such behaviour by any means, yet only a handful of supporters engaged in abusive beahviour. I was not one of them and neither were many others. Why did I go back after such a display? Because Im a loyal non-sectarian supporter, like many others and Im certainly not prepared to allow a group of mindless bigots to dictate what I can do with my spare time, when they can be removed from the equation instead. As they have been!

I'm a Catholic.....from Norn Iron....been going to Windsor Park for nearly 10 years now. I don't feel intimidated going there, never have and hopefully never will. All this shite about ALL Norn Iron supporters being bigotted is a load of crap. I have made many friends from going to Windsor Park and hopefully will continue to do so in the future. I recently met Jim Rainey who is the chairman of the Amalgamation of Norn Iron Supporters Clubs at a function organised by Co-Operation North and the jist of his presentation was about how in recent years sectarianism and bigotry has been banished from the stands at Windsor Park. There was the Neil Lennon affair, which appalled many many supporters of OWC, but in the games after that, we, the true supporters held up a banner supporting Neil. So all this crap about OWC still being biggoted is a load of nonsense.

The wristbands are sold out by the way

Looks like I got mine just in time - ordered 2 on Friday which came yesterday: great stuff!

I was too late :(

There's bound to be more - I'm gunna stick my name down for another 2 if they get more in.

Beano

4 wristbands. How many arms have you got ;)

Well my 2nd one is going to my brother as a present on his 11th birthday in a couple of weeks. Will probably keep one spare and I'm sure finding a good home for the last wouldn't be difficult (girlfriend? lol)

Cheers Paxter for standing up for the good cause m8, and judging by how quickly the wristbands have sold out I dare say there are many more who'll do the same. Hopefully more will be made soon!
Hope to see you all at Windsor for the IFA 125th Anniversary match vs Germany on June 4th, always a good one! C'mon the wee country!!!

"Hope to see you all at Windsor for the IFA 125th Anniversary match"

Their anniversary almost matches their world ranking, perhaps they could ask FIFA to drop them a couple of places so they match for the match.

Just sneering! ;)

15 points behind Chelsea ?

Just returning the sneer ;)

Bastard! ;)

I knew sumone wud have a crack at the 125 thing! A well, Ulster til we die and all that lol

Of course not all NI supporters are bigots - it's almost as daft as believing all GAA fans are republicans!

Anyway, I hope to get to a game later in the year. That Germany game sounds good...

"Norn Iron (Six counties really) bucket team supported by bigots. What a dilemna for Nationalists in this wee non country, non province. Who do we hate most?"

This simply demonstrates YOUR hatred and bigotry.

"Norn Iron (Six counties really) bucket team supported by bigots. What a dilemna for Nationalists in this wee non country, non province. Who do we hate most?"

Hey steve take off the gerry specs! Comments like that are not only bigoted, but laughable... says it all really.

NORTHERN IRELAND FOREVER!
Up the wee six!

Maybe the guy playing the sash outside old trafford could lead out the teams for the anniversary match

Maybe you and stephenfuller could watch the match and be sorely disappointed at the lack of any sectarian singing.

My great-uncle Fred died fighting to keep Uganda british.

er... or was it Kenya?

Mike

Maybe you and stephenfuller could watch the match and be sorely disappointed at the lack of any sectarian singing.

The world saw what Norn Iron football is really about at last week's Big 2 match...

"If you repeat a lie often enough, it
becomes accepted as the truth."

I wonder will the North's fans be as abusive to the travelling German fans this time round.

I seem to remember renditions of the dam busters tune and nazi salutes being directed towards the German supporters

Donnie -

"The world saw what Norn Iron football is really about at last week's Big 2 match..."

Oh really? Did 'the world' see what Italian footall is 'really about' at the Milan derby?

And please tell me what that has to do with the subject of sectarian singing anyway???

"If you repeat a lie often enough, it
becomes accepted as the truth."

Yes, that's the principle the likes of stephenfuller try to work on. Their problem is, the truth is readilt available, all someone needs to do to find out they're lying is go to a match.

mike

During the playing/singing of the british national anthem at Old Trafford,the northern ireland fans added their own touch by shouting 'no surrender' half wat through the anthem.

I believe this is the type of sectarianism which is still inherent within the supporters of the north

I was sitting in the South Stand at Old Trafford and I didn't hear anyone around me shouting No Surrender. Those days have gone you have to realise, if it does happen now, those who do insist of shouting it usually get a look of disgust by those around them. But certainly at Old Trafford I didn't hear it nor any sectarian chants.

paxter

Do you think the German fans will get a less hostile reception than they did on their last visit to the ground (dambusters,nazi salutes etc..)

Are any of the players that played for northern ireland at Old Trafford from the catholic community.

Not politically correct, i know,just trying to get an insight,as an outsider

Gerry Taggart, Anton Rogan, Neil Lennon (for nearly a decade before the crap started, crap perpetuated by a minority of idiots), Damien Johnson, and others that dont come to mind rite now have all been members of the Catholic community that represented Norn Iron. (Dont forget that a percentage of the same community would not be so willing to play for Norn Iron if they made it big in football because of their political beliefs, taking on Irish nationality etc)
Again, I was THERE for the last match against Germanny, and a helluva atmosphere it was too. Pity my experience was slightly soured by having to deal with riotous German fans at half-time, and insults directed at me wen in Belfast city centre b4 the match by visiting German fans.Thats rite folks, theres good and bad everywhere!!)
As for the addition of "no surrender" to the national anthem, AGAIN I have to say that, having actually ATTENDED home internationals and in the more vocal Kop at Windsor, only a minority would seek to disrespect and devalue our national anthem by including such a phrase, and as Paxter sed, are seriously frowned upon for doing so. I seem to remember one man being told to "wise the fuck up, mate" just behind me a few months ago!

P.S. I seem to remember a m8 of mine went to the return match in Germany that year, and had to laugh as a group of skinhead lookin lads started to chant, in perfect English no less, "If you hate fucking Ireland clap your hands!" Again, only a minority of us joined in lmao!!

Just as a point of interest, cud anyone who regularly attends Republic of Ireland internationals enlighten me as to roughly wat percentage of fans add "Sinn Fein" and "IRA" to any renditions of "The Fields of Athenry", or indeed engages in any other form of bigotry. My sixth sense tells me that it is comparatively few, but im not sure exactly.

Yeah, and while we are at it...

What about the booing of Rangers players when they play for their International teams at Lansdowne Road against the ROI. Sectarian? surely not?

And another thing. When ROI played in France a few months ago I was impressed by the size of your travelling support. Less impressive was that about EVERY OTHER SHIRT WAS A CELTIC SHIRT!!! What the fuck has Celtic got to do with ROI. In Norn Irn some years ago supporters stood up against idiots who thought wearing Rangers shirts to NI matches was appropriate through the 'wear green' campaign - part of the supporter driven campaign to address the minority of neanderthal bigots coming to matches and to improve the atmosphere for everyone. It has worked. You could count on one hand the Rangers shirts, and the Billy Boys etc hasn't been sung at a home match in years.

OMH
"What about the booing of Rangers players when they play for their International teams at Lansdowne Road against the ROI. Sectarian?"

What booing? I only know of one incident [which was totally disgraceful] but you are saying this is ongoing? I'm surprised [and presume you can back this up?].

"Less impressive was that about EVERY OTHER SHIRT WAS A CELTIC SHIRT!!! What the fuck has Celtic got to do with ROI."

Why does a Celtic shirt bother you? The situation down south is different than in the North. I don't believe wearing a celtic shirt down south is comparable with wearing a rangers shirt up north. What has celtic got to do with ROI? Are you joking? Think about it.

Maca,
"I don't believe wearing a celtic shirt down south is comparable with wearing a rangers shirt up north"

I suppose it depends on your view of whether both teams are supported primarily for sectarian reasons are not. For me the vast majority of people support Celtic and Rangers for reasons other than football be it religion or nationalism.

In that context, the fact that many of the ROI's suppoters wear Celtic shirts is telling me that this is not a team for all people in N.Ireland to support-only Nationalists.

So,how about this for a question-how can the Republic football authorities and supporters group
make supporting the team more welcome for Northern Protestants?
Would we be welcome?

Or is the present situation much more convenient for everyone-N.Ireland can continue to be slagged off for not being inclusive enough in the knowledge, that very few non-RCS from the North are going to check if the reverse is true at ROI games

Paul
"For me the vast majority of people support Celtic and Rangers for reasons other than football be it religion or nationalism."

I would highlight though, that I think the situation down South is different. In NI a celtic/ranger shirt is a label, an identifier. Down south almost all soccer fans support British teams. I support Manu, others support celtic. They are a team with strong Irish connections, as as ManU and Liverpool for example. Of course there are excpetions but most of us support the "Irish connection", IMHO.
Of course we all are aware of the religious issue and may think it odd [but certainly not wrong] that someone would support Rangers.

"how can the Republic football authorities and supporters group make supporting the team more welcome for Northern Protestants?"

I don't know. Do Northern prods even WANT to support the ROI?
It would be a good idea to start the same anti-sectarianism scheme they have done in NI.

"Would we be welcome?"

Doh! Of course.

"Or is the present situation much more convenient for everyone-N.Ireland can continue to be slagged off for not being inclusive enough"

Well, we'll always slag off NI just cos your shite ;))
Do southerners slag off NI because you are not inclusive enough? Or is it Northerners who are doing the slagging? I am happy to accept that NI has made great strides in recent years to make the team more inclusive. I'd have no problem attending an NI game [although of course i'd be slightly apprehensive]

"in the knowledge, that very few non-RCS from the North are going to check if the reverse is true at ROI games"

The thing is, I believe few people are aware of any sectarianism in ROI football. After all over half of our team is English/non-catholic. So I don't think what you mention has ever even occurred to us. Indeed i've no problem if you want to check, someone should. If sectarianism exists it needs to be highlighted then stamped out.

Btw ... anyone going to the game at Windsor tonight? Prediction: 1-2 to the Town.

Isn't there a thrill in supporting the team that will be forever the under-dog. Doesn't it get a little boring to see the same friggin teams from South America win time and again, with a European powerhouse thrown in once in a while for good measure.
For me the joy of supporting Northern Ireland is not only because they represent the place where I was born, it's that on any given day if the stars line up, we have the potential to beat anybody. On a special night in Valencia 1982 we showed just that...defying all odds with just 10 men. That is the thrill, like a gambler who hits it big once in a blue moon, the day arrives when Northern Ireland are spectacular. It makes a victory even more sweet...doesn't matter if you are a buddist, jew, catholic, protestant or muslim. Its all about the day when your little team knocks off the big guy. We will never be Argentina or Brazil but one day we will give them a shocker. Norn Iron football delivers every 20-30 years, maybe Africa 2010 will be the one.
I for one am happy that the likes of the US and Japan are doing well after having been slagged and disrespected for so long. Without Norn Iron in Germany, we can always look to these other teams to knock off the big guys in 2006.

Are things really so peaceful and Zen-like at Windsor? Could a man stand at the Kop end with a T-shirt which says "Proud Catholic Northern Ireland Supporter!" without danger of significant bodily harm? Catholics who go to the matches in support are hardly identifying themselves as such.

Mucker - excellent post. Sums the experience up brilliantly for me.

Oxie - I don't identify myself as a Protestant either at matches. And I would think they'd be fine.

Cheers Mike. When NI beat Spain in 82, it was as good as winning the World Cup. Everything else was a bonus after that. In the midst of some dark days for the province, both for peace loving catholics and protestants, it truly was an awe inspiring time.
We will have our day again, and when we do, I hope we give it to France. Broke NI hearts in 2 World Cups, it would be so sweet to take them down.
Ever more...

" In the midst of some dark days for the province, both for peace loving catholics and protestants, it truly was an awe inspiring time."

Firstly, i don't know what the term province means ??

Secondly, as an Irishman, my only interest at the time, was how Ireland where progressing.

The billy boys never had a bearing on my childhood..

The six county team never entered my thoughts.

As a Belfast man, my childhood was always filled with the hope that Stevie Heighway or Giles would lead us to the World Cup finals.

As it turned out ,i had to wait until the Euro finals of 88, before my country started to make its prescence felt within the world or european scene.

From there on, its been a rollercoaster.

Some great days.

I am happy for you Jack, and your great days.

Its all about interpretation. You made yours and had your dreams. Your reality was obviously different than that of many others who live in a place called Northern Ireland, and that includes catholics like myself, and others I went to games with back in those days. Because "Billy Boys" never entered your thoughts, let me fill you in on something...the goal that struck down the Spanish in 82 was scored by a catholic man, but I couldn't care if he were a hindu or jew.

Remember that those in the ROI signed on the dotted line and created Northern Ireland, six counties or whatever you you prefer to call it. Did they really give a damn about you Jack? Let me answer for you, its a resounding NO. The Dublin boys were looking out for themselves Jackie boy. They couldn't have cared less about you or any other future ROI supporting "Belfast man".

Your team has come along since your childhood days as a "Belfast man" and I wish you and them well.

"Your team has come along since your childhood days as a "Belfast man" and I wish you and them well"

I couldn't care less about how well or badly the Republic do. But from me anyway, there is certainly no resentment about their success and as Mucker said, I'm pleased for fellow countrymen like Jack that they now have a half-decent team to follow.

It's just a pity that the support for the ROI amongst some Northerners seems to be tinged with an irrational hatred of the N.Ireland team and their supporters which I find hard to understand.

It's not like the NI team pose any threat on the football field and there aren't GAWA road blocks preventing those who want to travel down to watch the ROI. The local media gives a pretty good coverage of the Republic's games and if a person born in NI decides he wants to play for the ROI then he has that right.

So for the certain people I mentioned, why does the N.Ireland team and fans matter so much?

Note to Mucker - great posts. All of them are dead-on target.

Note to Jack - the 6 county thing is so tired and stale. Jack, we are living in an mp3 world and you are still playing 45 rpm., cassette tapes at best. Do you still have your brogues with steel tips and your drainpipe trousers? I am also a catholic who grew up in the late 70s and 80s supporting NI. The ROI was, and never will be my team.
Probably around 1982 our catholic school took a couple of buses down to your 26 counties to see the GAA version of football final in Dublin. It was a great match, except the supporters on the otherside of the dividing fence on the terrace got word that we were from "the North", didn't matter that were catholics of who we were supporting. Next thing whatever could be thrown was thrown at us, they got a few of my classmates and held them at the fence while some others got their digs in. There was continuous spit coming our way...you know, the particularly high class put the spit on your first 2 fingers and fling it. Great stuff from your 26 county friends.
Back when you were dreaming of Giles it probably never occurred to you that many people in your 26 counties think of you as very different and that you are cut from the same cloth as your "proddie" neighours in "the North".
I'm with Mucker, your dreams were pure fantasy. Those that you dreamt about sold you out less than 100 years ago.
I'm not saying not to enjoy the team of your choice - support Mexico, Korea, Brazil or the ROI...but you brought your narrow minded billy boy talk into the conversation and your worn out 6 county whining.
It must be like acid in your stomach to know that your ROI team is like a little England. Don't be getting a stomach ulcer on us now Jack because if you do, the UK healthcare system will have to take care of it.

Brilliant one Loafer

Jack - Careful you don't poke your finger when you are stitching up the holes in your old balaclava.

Mucker re your comment about the 82 victory against spain. (awe-inspiring...for peace loving catholics and protestants...etc...) I was 18 years old that night and walking home down Corporation Street whwn I was attacked by three 'fans' of yours who danced on my head for 5 minutes to celebrate the victory (1 Rangers top and two N Ireland tops). There wasnt a single Catholic i know who wanted anything to do with such a sectarian-supported team. You can live in your fantasy-world of historical revisionism for as long as you like, but dont even attempt to paint a picture of mass cross community support at that time (or indeed any other time!).

Wow - you stopped short of labelling mucker a Lundy I see. Good on you for your restraint.

Oh dear...A shocking kick in the teeth for Young Irelander, Fearon et al.

Mucker,

I was privilged to be in the stands in Valencia on that famous June evening back in 1982.

My memories of that never to be forgotten "David & Goliath" encounter are captured in the recent edition of the "Happy Days" Northern Ireland fanzine.

O'Neill, Jennings, Armstrong, Donaghy etc...heros, every one!

Three of the aforementioned have gone on to represent Northern Ireland in a coaching capacity.

Their politics and/or religion...it matters not one iota.

They represented Northern Ireland with honour, pride and distinction.

They'll do me.

Interesting point here Realist. If their religon did not matter to you then why did you deliberately single out the names of the 4 catholic players ie Jennings, Donaghy, Armstrong and O'Neill when you declared them 'heroes one and all'? Perhaps sub-consciously religon matters to you more than you might think? Somebody who truly doesnt care about religon wouldnt have done that.

Loafer

'The ROI was, and never will be my team.'

'Those that you dreamt about sold you out less than 100 years ago.'

LOL, this is great stuff. Revisionism, sell-outs and foreigners on your doorstep, give me more!

I do know a few people who share your views. Partition has worked for some. Tell a child he's a monkey long enough and he'll believe it i guess. There's an 'educated' girl i know who from Strabane who says she's Northern Irish and doesn't want re-unification. She mimics southern accents, says northerners 'get on better'LOL, and ' sure they don't look like us down there'. It cracks me up every time. Now here's for the best bit, her mother's from Dublin! You couldn't make it up. Hey, maybe the 'North' and 'South' shouldn't mix after all if this is what happens!

FTR, i think the majority of NI fans are improving the support, but its far from over. Perhaps instead of decent fans drowning out sectarian chants/songs with 'Northern Ireland', the hooligans can just be evicted and banned for 5 yrs?

Mucker, i think southeners are really huge alien lizards with fake skin on...

cladycowboy,

"i think the majority of NI fans are improving the support, but its far from over."

Thank you very much, and I couldn't agree more.

Do you go to many Northern Ireland games yourself?

I think there's an interesting point in general about the make-up of Northern Ireland's support in recent years. There has clearly been an increase in support from the middle-classes at the expense of a loss of support in working class districts of Belfast. A work colleague from Rathcoole tells me that the level of support from his own area has fallen and he is at a loss to explain it as he still attends himself. It could be fall-out from the anti-sectarianism campaign but its clear that the balance has shifted.

'Mucker, i think southeners are really huge alien lizards with fake skin on...'

You're thinking of the Royal Family. So David Icke says anyway . . .

macswiney,

"Interesting point here Realist. If their religon did not matter to you then why did you deliberately single out the names of the 4 catholic players ie Jennings, Donaghy, Armstrong and O'Neill when you declared them 'heroes one and all'? Perhaps sub-consciously religon matters to you more than you might think? Somebody who truly doesnt care about religon wouldnt have done that."

I doesn't matter a jot to me what religion (if any) anyone, let alone a professional footballer, is.

Others mentioned religion...yourself included.

I posted as I did to highlight that the Northern Ireland team was, is and always will be cross community.

The aforemetioned players have all spoken publicly on their religious persuasion...it is a matter of public record.

I can assure you, I will support ANY player who dons the Emerald Green of Northern Ireland.

It's a pity that your debating technique has now reached the depths of a part time, non qualified phsyco analyist.

Unfortunately the facts seem to cause you difficulties.

Many, many people in the Catholic community watched and cheered Northern Ireland on that evening in Valencia....many in bars in nationalist/republican "strongholds".

I know in my mixed local at the time, the mixed patrons told me, after I returned from the game, that the place was stuffed to the rafters with everyone cheering on wee Norn Iron.

Your attempts at revisionism will not airbrush that.

Realist - "many in bars in Nationalist and Republican strongholds". You are clearly delusional. That is the single most unrealistic statement I have ever viewed on 'slugger'. I lived through that era. It was 1982. Less than one year after The Hunger Strikes. And you believe that the local republican clubs were packed with N.I. supporters. Why do Northern Ireland fabs always feel the need to 'create' mass ranks of imaginary catholic supporters? Why is that necessary? There are'nt even mass ranks of protestant NI supporters for heavens sake. Your average crowd is at most 9,000 which is less than a big two match. Keep it in perspective Realist. To quote your own song - You are definitely NOT Brazil!!!

Realist - "many in bars in Nationalist and Republican strongholds". You are clearly delusional. That is the single most unrealistic statement I have ever viewed on 'slugger'. I lived through that era. It was 1982. Less than one year after The Hunger Strikes. And you believe that the local republican clubs were packed with N.I. supporters. Why do Northern Ireland fabs always feel the need to 'create' mass ranks of imaginary catholic supporters? Why is that necessary? There are'nt even mass ranks of protestant NI supporters for heavens sake. Your average crowd is at most 9,000 which is less than a big two match. Keep it in perspective Realist. To quote your own song - You are definitely NOT Brazil!!!

To All:

I'll be in Belfast late August -- September 11. Are there any sports games (doesn't have to be 'football', as you wee folks call it :) ) around that time? Forgive my ignorance, but i'm not even familiar with 'seasons' and what have you.

To those that understood what I was actually saying, and not blinded by shamrock coloured glasses...I appreciate your feedback and support.

Macswiney - I am truly sorry that you had a bad experience back in 82 at the hands of some thugs. For what its worth I have had plenty myself. Living in a mixed neighbourhood in South Belfast and going to Catholic school with a uniform... well, I think you get the picture. I didn't take Sherlock friggin Holmes to know that you were a catholic. I had my share of punches, kicks, and the usual "fenian B" directed at me. Still, growing up in a mixed area brought with it great protestant friends that would stand up and defend you, and ultimately you learn that a hood, is a hood, is a hood...whether they are wearing a Rangers shirt, Celtic shirt or a Hugo Boss designer label. It is a reality no matter where you live.
Consider that as sectarian crimes decline there is the well-publicized increases in racially motivated attacks in NI. The "chinky" or "paki" is the new "fenian B", or "proddy B".
Thankfully the world is waking up to the notion that a terrorist is a terrorist. There is no disctinction between those that piloted planes into the world trade center and those who intimidate the local sweet shop into protection money.
I apologize if you think I was inferring that ALL "peace loving" catholics and protestants supported NI in June 1982. In truth, I can only speak for myself, a few catholic friends that also cheered, and if Loafer doesn't mind, I can speak for him too. So, to make you happy, I admit that it wasn't all catholics. Feel better now?
Spare a thought for the chinky who might get his head danced on tonight on Corporation St. won't you? See hate for what it is and individual human beings for what they are. We all have our stories, you have yours, Loafer has his, and I have mine.
In closing, do you think that you were the only one who was ever punched and kicked by someone wearing a football jersey? Is it possible that someone with a cliftonville jersey might have done the same to an innocent protestant?

Mucker - you can count me in as a big NI fan in 82, and with a couple of my fenian B mates, that makes about at least a dozen of us.

Maswiney - good on you for having a friend in Rathcoole.

Cladycowboy - your post makes absolutely no sense at all. All the laughing out loud you did while writing it is in itself a cry for help. Please seek professional help.

Fly on the Wall - there is cracker women's professional bowling on during that time, bit dodgy though as it is becoming quite sectarian. Jack may be organizing a ROI bus trip for support of the 26 counties bowling team.

Mickey - brilliant on the balla clava.

Jack - Is that your gently worn black military style gloves on e-bay?

I can understand most nationalists not really feeling that NI is their team, but would think they'd still support it (even if they find it hard to admit). And just like here in scotland people get more interested when there's a decent team to support.

I'm not a big football fan, more into rugby. I have met a few unionists who follow the all ireland rugby team who feel Northern ireland is sometimes forgotten about as all home games are in dublin where the republic's flag and anthem are used but not NI's. I know NI football team plays in green and people are trying to make it more welcoming for the whole community, but aren't there still issues like the use of "god save the queen' and the red-hand flag with crown star and white background?

I can understand most nationalists not really feeling that NI is their team, but would think they'd still support it (even if they find it hard to admit). And just like here in scotland people get more interested when there's a decent team to support.

I'm not a big football fan, more into rugby. I have met a few unionists who follow the all ireland rugby team who feel Northern ireland is sometimes forgotten about as all home games are in dublin where the republic's flag and anthem are used but not NI's. I know NI football team plays in green and people are trying to make it more welcoming for the whole community, but aren't there still issues like the use of "god save the queen' and the red-hand flag with crown star and white background?

Have to agree with Macswiney on this one. I grew up in a Republican household in a middle class part of Belfast and remember Espana '82 well. Were we cheering on 'Ulster'? Were we fuck.

Northern Ireland are quite entitled to play their games, sing their anthem, fly their flag etc. etc. etc. All that I and most Republicans want noted at some official level of the Northern state and its broadcaster, is that we and a large number like us have absolutely no affiliation to the team and never will.

What do 'God save the Queen' and the 'Ulster' flag have to say to me about my life? Absolutely fuck-all squared.

Again I have absolutely no problem with Northern Ireland and their team. All I do object to is this constant delusional propoganda about their being this great untapped body of Northern nationalist/republican support for 'Ulster' that only requires a few more untermenschen singing 'The Billy Boys' to be removed from Windsor before they all come rushing onto the terraces and join in a rousing choruses of 'God save the Queen' while wearing their 'Ulster' flag.

I personally witnessed scenes of sectarianism outside the northern ireland club in shaftesbury
square, prior to the German game.

A crowd of about 40 norhern ireland fans were standing outside the bar when they noticed a girl on the other side of the road with a Gaelic jersey.The crowd started shouting sectarian abuse at the girl, pointing towards her, while singing 'you dirty Fenian ba***rd'.

The police were keeping a close eye on the crowd and moved in to stop the singing when they noticed what was happening.

As a Protestant, i was horrified by this and would never think of bringing my children to a game, if this is the sort of atmosphere they would be subjected to.

I read in a magazine recently that early 80s star Wurzel Gummidge was a staunch protestant. Didn't he delight thousands, even the hardest of hearts, in most households in republican strongholds?

Sandra - Its about time we heard a woman's perspective in what has been a 4 month testosterone convention at this thread.

While I feel for the young woman, or anyone subjected to such abuse, the words "Gaelic jersey", "ouside the bar", and "40 Northern Ireland fans" were never meant to mix. If the young woman strolled outside a bar on the Falls Road with a Rangers jersey on, I doubt it would be any different. Its is despicable, disgusting, and we all hope for a better place.

Fly on the Wall

Northern Ireland will be playing at home to Azerbijan and England during your stay.

unfortunately both matches sold out ages ago :(

dareen - plenty of supporters want NI to have their own anthem the way Scotland and Wales do. We just don't seem to be able to find anything decent to use! I keep hearing that UEFA may be getting rid of anthems anyway, but don't know about that.

re the flag - again, it's Northern Ireland's (unofficial - to keep the pedants happy) flag. I would welcome any suggestions at a new one but the simple fact is that those above who won't support NI for political reasons, also won't want it to have it's own flag at all so I don't think there can ever really be a "cross community" flag no matter how much I want it (and mine would simply be replacing the St George's Cross with the St Patrick one and perhaps removing the crown - but I'll say no more as this thread had become decrepid enough already).

Bored - so you admit that you won't support NI for political reasons? This is good. With the Billy Boy fans and 'party songs' it was NI supporters who had to bring politics into football. When we remove that altogether, we may attract a few extra moderate nationalists/catholics but just as importantly will be able to hold our heads high and know that it's only RoI supporters who insist on dragging their politics into the football stadium.

Bored,

"I do object to is this constant delusional propoganda about their being this great untapped body of Northern nationalist/republican support for 'Ulster' that only requires a few more untermenschen singing 'The Billy Boys' to be removed from Windsor before they all come rushing onto the terraces and join in a rousing choruses of 'God save the Queen' while wearing their 'Ulster' flag."

Do you honestly think that 's what the Football For All campaign is about? If you do, you're delusional.

We understand fully that there is a section of our community who will never support the Northern Ireland team, no matter what changes take place..that is respected and upheld.

It is not just nationalists/republicans who object to sectarian singing etc at Northern Ireland matches.

We are trying to create an atmosphere whereby all those who support Northern Ireland can come to our matches in an environment free from sectarianism, bigotry and racism.

Nothing more, nothing less.

That is of little concern to those who do not, and never will, support Northern Ireland.

Anyone remember Anton Rogan's experiences of the Windsor crowd ??

"It is not just nationalists/republicans who object to sectarian singing etc at Northern Ireland matches".

Amen to that!

If people are that desperate to sing about events from 400 years ago and the various terrorist gangs, they shoul pop along to the next Old Firm game, where a large number of the fans still seem to be stuck in a sectarian quagmire.

vin,

"Anyone remember Anton Rogan's experiences of the Windsor crowd ??"

Please feel free to remind us.

"defender Rogan, who hails from the estate of Lenadoon in Catholic West Belfast, was routinely abused by supporters during his 18-game international career in the late Eighties."

"O'Neill, Jennings, Armstrong, Donaghy etc...heros, every one!

Three of the aforementioned have gone on to represent Northern Ireland in a coaching capacity."

Below is a quote fron Pat Jennings regarding his international career with northern ireland

"It's sad the Neil Lennon situation," he said. "For me there is no room for sectarianism in football, but if he's receiving threats what else can he do? It's just crazy and I experienced it right through my international career as a Catholic. I got a fair bit of stick, probably because I was closer to the support than any of the other players."

The good old days !!!!

Realist - I agree 100%. There is a complete lack of appreciation for the efforts that are made to stamp out sectarian activities at Windsor. Its not undertaken with the idea that the IFA can cash in on an untapped fan base. Its about human decency and about what is right and what is wrong. The IFA is clearly aware of the fact that those like bored, growing up in a self-proclaimed 'republican household' will never set foot in Windsor. The IFA and the majority of protestant fans know well that the Lennon incident etc reflect badly on them, both within NI and beyond. It takes courage to give someone a look, or say something to someone that acts in such a way. It also takes time. For every one person with an inflexible mind like bored or jack, there too will be a loyalist NI fan willing to show up in a Rangers jersey and boo a catholic player. So, for the courageous who are actively involved in trying to stamp out sectarian bigotry at Windsor and beyond, I raise my glass to you. Also, personal congrats to you on being one of only a handful of non-Spaniards who witnessed the match of all matches in Valencia!

Vin - the word "remember" gets thrown around way too much in NI. You know there are hard-nosed loyalist fans who say "remember" pub bombings with no warnings, "remember" Einskillen. ROI fans from Republican households will say "remember" internment, "remember" shoot-to-kill, and many incidents beyond...and so it goes. There is lots to remember about this tiny Isle, but none of it effects change. There are people trying to make changes and that is what you should REMEMBER.

Beano - I share your frustration on the thread. It was soured from the beginning. Your willing to be flexible on a flag will never be appreciated by many...but stay the course. Mucker's original post is what NI football is all about for me, and I agree with his take.

Ricardo - I think fly on the wall is well aware of what's happening at Windsor in early Sept. The questioning of the seasons and "wee people" should have clued you in.

Why is my post spawning itself and why is it coming up as Liam and Tommy?

mod - deleted multiple posts from loafer and vin

I thought you were just messing us about loafer! lol

Ricardo - I think Jack was behind that spawn :)

Whether your real name is Liam, Tommy, Billy, Sammy or Loafer at birth, the point is well taken.
Remembering is killing us, even Wurzel Gummidge is saying its time to move on.

From Pat Jennings in the seventies,Anton Rogan in the eighties and Neil Lennon through the millenium.

northern ireland supporters have abused their own players because of their religious persuasion for decades.

We also have accounts of northern ireland supporters singing sectarian songs outside a supporters bar in shaftesbury before the Germany game.

Has anything changed ??

Doug - you can't click your heels and make it all go away. It is going to take a long time. There is no way you can compare the NI of 2005 with that of 1982.

Macswiney was beaten up by hooligans with Rangers and N. Ireland shirts in 1982. When I was visiting a pen pal in Belfast (Lisburn Road section) back in 1984 I was jumped by young men who didn't have football uniforms. It was a combination of Motorhead, Spandau Ballet and Meatloaf. Strange combo indeed.

morton

class a or class c recreational hobbies ????

Loafer,

'Cladycowboy - your post makes absolutely no sense at all. All the laughing out loud you did while writing it is in itself a cry for help. Please seek professional help.'

I have to apologise for the laughing, i genuinely can't help it when i recall that conversation. What part of the post did you find unitelligible? Thank you very much for the concern as regards my mental stability, its duly noted and i will act accordingly. I also find it quite funny that a few posters have quite rightly suggested that we all 'remember' less of our history and personal experiences of hatred yet you remember how some southerners spat at you decades ago and this seems to have directed your support for NI.
Tell me, where you at the NI/ROI game in 93? How did you feel? At any NI/ROI game did you sing both anthemns, one or none?

Ricardo

'Do you go to many Northern Ireland games yourself?'

I haven't had the pleasure of being at a NI game. I've been to see ROI just the once. To 'support' a football team which represents a state i don't believe should exist is quite hard. I do have benign, well-wishing sentiment for NI as its supported by fellow Irishmen but when it comes to NI v ROI then i'm with the cultural brethren in the south i'm afraid.
Political? Maybe.NI team exists because of footballing politics, if England hadn't invented the game, would FIFA allow one nation to field four teams?
The fact i first felt affinity with ROI at a young age may count for more though. Also, my Grandfather supported Glasgow Celtic, he lived in Glasgow for 20yrs, and i've carried on the torch so it were with Celtic, the fact that my Grandfather is older than NI ensured that this 'hereditary support' couldn't be replicated for support of NI.
Any thoughts on the expulsion from ground of party-song singers within the ground?

Morton - You and I both know that never happened. If you meant that 3 hoods were together and one looked like a member of Spandau Ballet, that is impossible. Meatloaf or a member of Motorhead I can accept...a hood with a Spandau look...wise up.

Clady - I was just kidding about the lol and your mental health. You seem like a stable, well adjusted individual. You are quite right, I was doing a bit of recollecting for Jack, but it was really to make the point that there is ignorance, violence, and spit flickers everywhere...including the promised land of the ROI. It certainly didn't make me a NI fan.
I was not at the game, and when it comes to crooning anthems, I can't hit the notes.
I do attend games and support for the thrill that mucker described. I don't hate the ROI team, and if you noted I wished them well...just don't have any kind of affinity with them.
Maybe things are different now down in Dublin in 2005 for "6 county" ROI fans, I can only go on past experience.

republic of ireland fans were recently insulting 'jews' and making comments about the holocaust

kill all huns is another favourite 'on the wall comment'of the roi plastic support in ulster

granted it usually comes from the bigotted plastic support that originates from the north

"kill all huns is another favourite 'on the wall comment'of the roi plastic support in ulster"

b13

yawn ! yawn !

The fact that sectarianism continues to be a major factor within the support base of northern ireland is no excuse for making up stories.

Could you provide some proof of the above statement or just your vivid imagination working overtime.

1

great response there 'wes' zzzzzzzz

so good you posted it twice

ironic given the fact that you cannot supply any evidence to back up your claim

if you went to a roi game i wouldnt have to provide any evidence

the proof is in the pudding

ROI fans in the North are probably the most sectarian bunch of bigotted thugs in europe

pity you have to embarrass the 'real' ROI fans in that country

btw when is the last time you were at windsor park...or even landsdowne for that matter

oh let me guess Nov 1993 yawn yawn

if I had a pound for every ROI thug bigot that claims to have been there that night

serious question wes

do you practice it?

making yourself look stupid that is

feel the love xx

B13

"plastic support"

northern ireland were averaging about 6-7000 for a home game only a few years ago.

Has the extra support got anything to do with the fact that Wales and England are in their qualifying group.

It will be interesting to see how many of the n.i supporters sell their tickets to England supporters when the teams meet at windsor

v Bulgaria 2/6/2001 att: 7609
v Iceland 5/9/2001 att: 6625
v cyprus 21/8/2002 att: 6992
v Finland 12/2/2003 att: 6137
v Greece 2/4/2003 att: 7187
v Armenia 10/9/2003 att: 8616
v Serbia/Montenegro 28/4/2004 att: 9690

Vin et al. - so Pat Jennings and the catholics who played for NI back in the goods old days were in the absolute worst situation... getting stick from select hooligans at the Kop end, and getting non-support from fellow catholics who have made their feelings known on this thread. Worse still, some catholics consider them to be "traitors" for playing for a team called Northern Ireland. Makes these players even bigger heros in my eyes.

"Political? Maybe.NI team exists because of footballing politics, if England hadn't invented the game, would FIFA allow one nation to field four teams?"

I think your history of football associations leaves a little to be desired.

The reason the UK has 4 teams is simply because the 4 FAs predate FIFA. The NI team does exist because of politics but not those of the IFA nor those of FIFA. When FIFA were setting up the world cup, the home nations largely ignored it because... well there wasn't the level of competition there is today. They already had the British Championships played between 4 of the top sides in the world - England, Scotland, Wales and
(Northern) Ireland.

When the IFA was formed it was an all-Ireland body with an all-Ireland team. Up to about the 50s/60s they played as "Ireland" while, in the UK at least, the Republic were known as Eire.

The reason the 2 teams were formed was not originally because of the 2 countries on the island, it was because the Dublin sides were disgusted that the IFA was based in Belfast and even moreso that they played cup finals and such up here because there were more teams from Ulster than anywhere else on the island at that time. When the IFA wouldn't start playing cup finals in Dublin, the southern teams took a huff and formed their own FA (FAI) with their own international side. My understanding is tha both teams picked players from all over as they fought to be regarded as the 'real' Irish team but FIFA weren't too happy with this so they persuaded the two FAs that the Belfast-based IFA would pick players from this side of the border and the Dublin-based FAI would pick from - well wherever they like really - but officially, from the Free State.

So really if you're anti-partition you should be supporting Northern Ireland! ;)

ditto Mucker

The ability of Mucker, and even more so Loafer, to kiss up to the loyalist community is without precedent. They are so far up inside, they are beyond the intestines and emerging from the oral cavity. Remarkable achievement.

Hallion - I find your post ammusing, couple of points.

1. Hallion 24-7?? Is that the best you could come up with? Was rocky man 365 taken?

2. Thumbs up on your basic knowledge of human anatomy, at least you learned something in secondary school biology class.

3. I make no apologies for my opinions and comments. Interpret them as you wish Hallion. Hallion??! Brilliant.

" getting stick from select hooligans at the Kop end, and getting non-support from fellow catholics.

I don't think Jennings used the term 'select' during the piece on his playing experiences at windsor park.

Jennings claims he was subjected to sectarian abuse throughout his northern ireland career.

"getting non-support from fellow catholics."

You can't really blame Nationalists for not wanting to go and support a team for which they have no feelings.

I have never read or heard anything from Pat Jennings regarding any problems he had from the Nationlist community during his playing days.

But sure they were great days at windsor, even with the naked sectarianism.

Loafer,
I wouldn't worry about the hallions-it's difficult for them to understand people thinking outside of the sectarian box.

"it's difficult for them to understand people thinking outside of the sectarian box."

Was the discussion not about the sectarian abuse Pat Jennings recieved inside his box !!

Beano - thanks alot for a superb overview on the history of football here. It was educational.

Hallion - what can I say? If nothing else, you have quite a work ethic...as hallion numbers have dropped down in recent years, at least you remain at it 24 hours a day. Good for you.

Big P - very clever with the box thing... but PJ Fan was referring to Hallion 24-7's anatomical perspective.

PJ Fan - thanks for your support.

Beano - brilliant historical perspective. Raising the intellect level here which is appreciated and desperately needed.

Vin - I do respect that you use the term nationalist, and not catholic because there is a huge difference...at least from this catholic's perspective. Of course there can be no blame placed on nationalists for not supporting NI, or any sport for that matter. I can't speak for what PJ did or did not hear from the nationalist community with regard to him playing for a team that they refuse to recognize. Only he knows that. I can say that I went to catholic school in Belfast where I heard numerous times that catholics should refuse to play for that proddy brit team.
So, what I can tell you is that I am glad that he did choose to play for a team that nationalists refuse to recognize...his decision (and Armstrong, etc) brought me and others a whole lot of joy during a time when it was really needed.
His and the entire team's talents were a welcome diversion from the shootings, the bombing and all the rest of it. That is all I am saying.

Peace out brother.

what a pointless argument.

Thanks for your valuable contribution Antonio. My post wasn't an arguement, just a note of appreciation.

i,m just suprised that people like Hallion can lift his knuckles from trailing the ground inorder to punch into his keyboard such an indepth and well thought out articulate response yawn yawn

dougie: yes plastic ROI fans that dont go to games but simply wear the roi top as a political expression. They are an embarrassment to the majority of decent southern based fans in that country. rewind twenty years to the days of liam brady when the roi were one of the worlds worst sides and i dont remember seeing anyone here sport a 'oneills' roi top

At least NI , even though very poor on the pitch, still have a remarkable following. Its just a pity that the small minded, bigotted, petty plastic ROI thugs that we witness on a daily basis dont wear the top for the right reasons. But then again what doe we expect from knuckle heads that wear ROI and stone innocent peoples houses every time celtic lose a game or championship, and the majority of them wont even make the short trip 'down the road' to attend a game. Why ? two reasons...they are not true supporters and secondly they know that the people of the ROI do not want them any where near their country never mind thier stadiums.

BTW when is the last time any of the so called ROI fans here were at a NI game????

I was at the ROI v Israel game and i was disgusted at the sectarian and anti semetic comments being made by, yes you got it, the very small number Northern Irish thugs that do actually go to the game. The waving of palestinian flags accompanied by shouts of 'does my bomb look big in this' just showed, not only me, but the majority of decent southern ROI fans what sort of animals follow the roi in Ulster, and that really they are not there for the football nor the 'craic'
as i said the mask has well and truly slipped in recent years

sad but very very true

feel the love

b13x

Multiple posts removed - mod

Smooth bit of rewriting history Beano.

Standing to God Save the Queen as your anthem and saluting the St. George Cross flag is anti-partitionist. I've heard it all now :-)

Anyway, with all this bad feeling and negativity surrounding soccer on this island, I'm one step away from ditching it altogether and moving away from the darkness and being one of "the ones the English left behind" (as we Dubs are affectionately known in rural parts) and towards the light of pre-everthing sport, especially after Dublin won the Leinster minor hurling title yesterday for the first time in over two decades.

Hurling: the most thrilling sport there is. A sport that predates recorded history on this island, never mind partition :-)

If you ask me, you Ulster guys should reclaim your historical birthright and give up on that blow-in sport for soft boys and namby divers.

What would the legendary Cuchulainn think of all this?

e-bay update: There is still 2 hours left on Hallion's stylish dark sunglasses, beret, and exquisite linen-cotton blended face-concealing handerkerchief.

As someone with Ulster origins living abroad, I feel I have to contribute to this discussion.

On a visit to Northern Ireland recently, my mate who incidentally is originally from Dublin but living in Belfast, informed me he had tickets for ROI v Israel.

We travelled from Belfast to Dublin by train and for two hours we had to listen to the worst outbursrs of anti semitism I have ever heard, more difficult to swallow asI was born Jewish.

These thugs where from Belfast and either had ROI tops or Celtic tops on.

On arrival in Dublin we met up with some mates who to say the least where embarassed by these neanderthals.

About a 500 strong section in the crowd kept these anti semetic chants and anti British sentiments going throughout the game.

One gentlemen sitting near me decided to take his tow children away as the severity of the comments where horrendous.

I myself felt nothing but disgust for these mindledd bigotswho flew the PLO flag and not the Irish flag throughout the game.

In contrast I have been to many Northern Ireland matches with Catholic mates and never been subjected to anything more than a poor Norn Iron display.

Mickey you are joining Loafer and the others on thier journey. By the time you emerge from the bowels, your relatives will be questioning your ethnicity.

Gareth I sympathise with your comments but we both know that it's not true....that you can't go to a Northern Ireland match and not hear chants like up to your knees in fenian blood. If the Irish rugby can be unified why cant the football team..because there is an element of the crowd that are hardline. Neil Lennon was made captain of Northern Ireland and because he was Catholic recieved he death threats.

Gareth I sympathise with your comments but we both know that it's not true....that you can't go to a Northern Ireland match and not hear chants like up to your knees in fenian blood. If the Irish rugby can be unified why cant the football team..because there is an element of the crowd that are hardline. Neil Lennon was made captain of Northern Ireland and because he was Catholic he received death threats.

It is micky not mickey. Whoever is tapping the keypad for you Hallion put in an extra 'e'.

Hey Everybody'talkn next time just click your mouse button once. Reading your entry the second time is no better than the first! Are you the high bidder on ebay for Hallion's stylish dark sunglasses!

Gareth-try being African or Asian you wouldnt buy a house near the shankill for fear being pipebombed or burnt out...However many visible minorities live in Anderstown. Maybe seeing the Palestinian flag is offensive to you because of how you have treated the Palestenians.

Mucker-Are you helping paint the curbs red, wihte and blue?

One football team for Ireland? Never. NI is here to stay ever more. Everybody's talk'n your dream is just that.

"Gareth I sympathise with your comments but we both know that it's not true....that you can't go to a Northern Ireland match and not hear chants like up to your knees in fenian blood."

Surprise surprise another one of the anti-NI brigade resorts to lying.

Intesresting also to note how they like to brand Catholic NI supporters.

Och aye,
..".However many visible minorities live in Anderstown"

What exactly is a visible minority...how many invisible minorites live in "Anderstown"?

"Maybe seeing the Palestinian flag is offensive to you because of how you have treated the Palestenians"

It is Sharon and his hencemen who are responsible for the mistreatment of the Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere not the complete Jewish race. Your comment is therefore not only illiterate but also anti-semitic and I would request that you withdraw it.

"Mucker-Are you helping paint the curbs red, wihte and blue?"

as I advised Hallion 24/7, for once try to think beyond the normal sectarian stereotypes.

Apologies fro the multiple posts!
There's something badly wrong with this commenting system.

You're telling me, I've been deleting multiple posts all weekend! - mod

och aye: again you paint yourself as a oetty little narrow minded bigot. Everybody, the dogs on the street included, know that there are as many racist attacks in nationalist areas as there are loyalist areas. Attacks on lithuanians in Dungannon by nationalists is just one of very many examples. please try to engage your brain before posting, it will help the entire quality of the debate.

everybodystalkin: you are just another example of a petty narrow minded little bigot that is wasting all of our time by posting lies. I dont need to refer to you as anything as you are doing a good enough job of making yourself look stupid.

the fact of the matter is simple. whilst NI fans are doing everything in their power to stamp out sectarianism, and they have nearly completely done that, the Northern ROI fans are now the new sectarian thugs on this island. Their bitterness does not do justice the attempts aby southerners and NI fans to bridge the gap. These Northern ROI thugs are not only sectarian but also racist. I have witnessed them after games on TV (where else do you honestly think many of them would go to a game) racially abuse chinese and asian people in their places of work.
I know that southern irish fans want nothing to do with them and genuinely wish that they would just stop tarnishing their good name.
Leave football for the football fans...roi fans are saying no to the Northern ROI top wearing sectarian thugs, Northern ireland fans are saying no to sectarianism......
at the end of the day football, the Northern irish fans and the ROI fans from that country, will be the winners.

We can all tell the losers just by looking at them

feel the lovex
b13

Hey is this the Pat Jennings fan website?

Hey B13 the only person who looks stupid and is bigoted is you....point out the lie in what I said.

everbodystalkin: stop wasting everyones time on this board

"that you can't go to a Northern Ireland match and not hear chants like up to your knees in fenian blood"

i think it has been agreed, even by an INLA member that this is of course not the case

now you can do one of two things

just crawl back under your rock

or respond with even more narrow minded petty lies that every one, and i mean everyone, knows that you are posting.

really you are bring this whole forum down to a terribly low level.

do us all a favour...if you have nothing worth saying, say nothing (i'm sure even the most ardent republican is wishing that also)

feel the lovex
b13

"Neil Lennon was made captain of Northern Ireland and because he was Catholic he received death threats."

There's the first lie I found and I didn't have to look very hard. I'm not getting into the whole Neil Lennon debate AGAIN because it's been done to death. No matter how many times people scoring political points off this particular death threat have their numerous inaccuracies pointed out, and have the person they are communicating with condone without equivocation the treatment Lennon received, they still bitch and moan on about it.

Hey Beano here's a bbc article you might find interesting?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/2208543.stm

Are you an Osterich because it is a fact that Neil Lennon recieved a death threat and I guess he never too any tyoe of sectarian abuse. right?

I think I went to school with mucker. The family had a framed picture in the sitting room and his ma had a royal family plate collection. Everyone slagged him.

I think I went to school with mucker. The family had a framed picture of the royals in the sitting room and his ma had a royal family plate collection. Everyone slagged him.

Loafer and Mucker make quite a pair, two big catholic NI fans back in the 80s and defenders of the crown. Same sx marriage is now legal in Canada, perhaps the 2 of you could take a trip there for a ceremony.

"as I advised Hallion 24/7, for once try to think beyond the normal sectarian stereotypes"

Try really hard, Baxter, I know you can do it!

Baxter - yes you have "outed" me. You didn't mention the mural of king billy on our gable wall.

PJ Fan - thanks for your confidence in mankind.

Hallion - I think you had no friends growing up, had sand kicked in your face on the beach, and use the net to flex your muscles from your bedroom in your parents house.

Still a big NI fan.

I attended the Northern Ireland/Germany game with two work colleagues.

I have to be honest and say that football is not my first preference when watching a sporting event, Ravenhill is my usual haunt, when Ulster are playing, especially on a Friday evening.

My memories of the evening are pretty sad, especially so because of the ammount of sectarian abuse i heard directed towards the young Northern Ireland goalkeeper.

I was horrified as quite a number of fans shouted sectarian insults at the young man, while others around me laughed.

I personally don't find the term 'Fenian Bas***d' very funny, nor do i find the terms ' Taig Scum' or 'your mother sleeps with priests' very funny.

This continued throughout the game and was also directed at another player on the team.

I left the stadium feeling disappointed and sick to my stomach at the naked aggression directed towards these young men.

As a Protestant, i was ashamed and embarrassed that my fellow countrymen could behave in such a sectarian manner, i have never, in all my days following Ulster rugby heard any shouting or abuse of this sort.

30000 Ulstermen travelled to Lansdowne Road to watch our victorious team become European champions.

I did not hear one word of aggression or sectarianism from anyone within those supporters.

I think i will stick to the Rugby in future.

Hey Beano your a liar.....
post from Beano about Lennon back in April....

"It's true that he got booed for signing for Celtic, which is hardly fair. He was treated badly by the fans, there's no question"

Willie j thank you for your honesty and speaking the truth...It's sad that we cant eliminate it from football if we could i would love to support Northern Ireland.

Willie J

just a matter of interest:
1. Where were you sitting
2. Can you recall the name of the goalie?
3. Which other players were being singled out?

Willie J

just as a matter of interest:
1. Where were you sitting
2. Can you recall the name of the goalie?
3. Which other players were being singled out?

willie j...or should i say everybodystalkin

you are turning this forum, never mind thread, into a complete farce with your lies

please can you tell us what stand, block, row and seat you were in for the game against germany

didnt think so?

as ive told you before

try to engage your tiny little micro brain before posting. Even the most ardent republicans know what you are saying is complete lies. maybe if you could get a copy of the starry plough and read what an INLA ex prisoner had to say on the game then you would think before making such an idiot of yourself

again you just look like the petty bitter and twisted sectarian little fool that the southern ROI fans do NOT want associated with their country, never mind team.

feel the love

xx b13

b13

Should you not be out building the bonie for the 11th night

You should feel at home with all the plastic n.i/rangers knuckle draggers ,drinking cheap wine and cider,singing sectarian songs and checking the benifit books for the next hand out.

prior

thanks for proving my point about narrow minded little bigots. I could not have paid you for that little gem

serious question?

do you practice making yourself look stupid

feel the love
b13x

"In contrast I have been to many Northern Ireland matches with Catholic mates and never been subjected to anything more than a poor Norn Iron display."

Just as well you didn't have a drink outside the n.i club on Shaftesbury square before the Germany game,by the sounds of things, your catholic friends might have been very offended

I see the calls for posters on owc to swamp slugger with posts has happened.

I think its time to kill the thread

"I think its time to kill the thread"

agreed Walter.
It's been a most revealing one in parts however, I think you'll agree.

Prior's rampant sectarianism, the horrible anti-semitism from och aye, the disgraceful insults aimed at the two Catholic NI fans the homophobia from "hallion 24/7" has not done the anti-NI cause any good at all.

Attack bigotry in sport by all means but try it without resorting to gutter-tactics.

Don't forget Pat Jennings, who claims he was subjected to sectarian abuse all during his international career.

Or Anton Rogan
"defender Rogan, who hails from the estate of Lenadoon in Catholic West Belfast, was routinely abused by supporters during his 18-game international career in the late Eighties."

Or Neil Lennon
n.ireland v Norway

"Fenian bastard!" called a young man from the centre of a group of ten or twelve. Subdued laughter, a steward in a fluorescent jacket rolled his eyes and smiled.

"Behind me, a baseball-capped man in his mid-twenties, delirious with joy now that his favourite song was back in vogue, stood up, cupped his hands around his mouth and bellowed: "Wipe them ashes aff your forehead Lennon, you Fenian f***er ye!" It was a popular insult, resulting in belly laughs and smiles all round. The stewards beamed, the two men with the toddler in front of me appreciated it greatly. It was the queue for a flurry of ash and Ash Wednesday insults. "Away and wash your head, you Fenian c**t." "Stick your ashes up your hole, you wee f***er ye!"

Lennon was near the corner flag now, closer to the West Stand than he had been for 45 minutes. "F**k aff back to Lurgan, you wee c**t ye!" "Don't come out again, you dirty Celtic f***er!" "Jump in the bath and wash them ashes aff your head!" Lennon kept walking and stared straight ahead. The jumper pulled down over his hands against the cold made him look even smaller and more alone.

Or the post from a Protestant woman earlier in the discussion

"I personally witnessed scenes of sectarianism outside the northern ireland club in shaftesbury
square, prior to the German game.

A crowd of about 40 norhern ireland fans were standing outside the bar when they noticed a girl on the other side of the road with a Gaelic jersey.The crowd started shouting sectarian abuse at the girl, pointing towards her, while singing 'you dirty Fenian ba***rd'.

The police were keeping a close eye on the crowd and moved in to stop the singing when they noticed what was happening.

As a Protestant, i was horrified by this and would never think of bringing my children to a game, if this is the sort of atmosphere they would be subjected to."

Or the post from the R