The Union Flag has as much, if not more, right to be associated with Saint Patrick as the Tricolour.

I noticed alot of St Patricks Cross flags on the TV coverage of the Armagh and Downpatrick events.....

I noticed alot of St Patricks Cross flags on the TV coverage of the Armagh and Downpatrick events.....

Yes, it would seem that only in Belfast do the participants feel it necessary to turn a simple celebration into an assertion of one community over the other (and expect the council to fund it?!). Throughout the rest of the island, it seems to have been fairly good natured and makes me wish I was anywhere but Belfast today.

The only flag that matters is the 5th century Welsh flag: two sinewy deep-chested singers of close harmony, crossed.

The St.Patricks cross, was hijacked and replaced by a bloody Scots Saltire, it has no Irish history, it was created by Brits after the act of Union. They forced the Saltire on us, just as they forced the Union.

It was a suitable insignia, on a blue background for Fascists in the thirties.

They forced the Saltire on us,

What has the Saltire to do with America ?

What has the Union Jack got to do with Ireland?

Only occupation, oppression and dispossession.

"They forced the saltire on us".
Are you several hundred years old?

Davros,

Too drole (from us in the "us").

Beano,

What the inhabitants of Belfast tend to do has kept my family "anywhere but Belfast" for 55 years.

occupation, oppression and dispossession.

God Help us , Gerry has been forced back into the arms of Noraid as nobody else will be bothered with him ( and they were so glad to have him back, all that nonsense about FOSF has been forgotten ) so I guess we'll see more 70's Noraid Nonsense ...

Davros, History has not changed, the British legacy was one of occupation, oppression and dispossession.

Gerry will have plenty of voters who will be bothered with him at the next election, including me.

Davros
The Union Flag has as much, if not more, right to be associated with Saint Patrick as the Tricolour.

Davros i disagree,the tricolour is the national flag of the Republic of Ireland,and is also the national flag for over 40% of the people in N Ireland,The Union Jack represents a minority on this island,so it cannot deserve more right to be associated with St Patrick.

Paddy,

If you are a Canadian, how can you vote in Ireland?

Personally I think Saints of the Catholic church have nothing whatsoever to do with any national flags. Sainthood isn't regional and nor is Catholicism for that matter.

All ex pats can vote. In the consticuency they were last registered in, for 15 years after the date of their last registration.

Call me a simpleton, but surely flying the Patricks Cross like they did at Belfast City Hall is the most appropriate flag to have on St Patricks day?

Afterall, it is St Patricks day, a day to celebrate St Patrick and the coming of christianity to Ireland, it is not as some people on this thread seem to think "Ireland Day" , if it was so then of course the tricolour should be flown in the republic when such a day should be celebrated. But its not, its St Patricks day so the Patricks Cross is unquestionably the most appropriate flag to be waved around. I don't see how anyone could possibly object to that exercising of logic.

Seamus,

Not being a Catholic myself, I have to ask: How does one get to be the Patron Saint of X (where X = an entity such as Ireland)?

I agree Rebecca, fly the St.Patricks Cross, not the Red Saltire.

and by the way, seeing as Patrick landed at Saul and is associated with the church of Armagh, if anything it should be a Northern Ireland day.

Rebecca Black
http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/geography/unionjack4.html
Because the cross of St Patrick respresents ''Ireland'' in the formation of the Union Flag,it is rightly or wrongly seen as a unionist/british flag,and is not accepted by the vast majority of irish people.

Gerry will have plenty of voters who will be bothered with him at the next election, including me.

Gerry is leaving Ireland and seeking election in the USA ? Great news for Ireland.

so paddy, what does ur patricks cross look like if the one in the Union flag isn't it?

Paddy,

Thanks for the clarification on Irish ex-pat voting rights. I guess 55 years is past the sell-by date.

It was a cross right way up, not a saltire.

A bit Alan, but if you really want a vote, I am sure it can be arranged!

Remember the old adage:

"Vote early, vote often!"

you mean like the english flag? the red cross?

Cavanman - I was careful with my post.

Davros :The Union Flag has as much, if not more, right to be associated with Saint Patrick as the Tricolour.

Davros i disagree,the tricolour is the national flag of the Republic of Ireland,and is also the national flag for over 40% of the people in N Ireland,The Union Jack represents a minority on this island,so it cannot deserve more right to be associated with St Patrick.

Answer one simple question Cavanman. What is the flag of Patrick's birthplace ? The Union Flag or the Tricolour ?

I'll remind you that Millions of people claim Irishness because one or more great great etc's was/were born in Ireland. Was Patrick born in Ireland ? No. He was born within the boundaries of the present UK whose flag is the Union Flag :)
So, The Union Flag has JUST as much right to be associated with Patrick as the Tricolour ...and a lot more right than the Millions of Plastic paddies at present drinking themselves into a stupor have to claim some dubious relationship.

It is time the Irish Republic (and I mean THE Irish Republic not some imaginary one that the IRA will bring about long after we are all dead) took ownership of the Irish National Flag.

It is time the people from Iveagh House posted around America did their job by ensuring that the Irish flag is treated with the same respect demanded by Americans for their national flag. They should send protocols to each of the organizing committees reminding them of their responsibilities to both flags.

Instead, all over America, the Shinners are misappropriating it as THEIR flag without a word of protest from the Irish consular officials.

Here in San Diego a few years ago the Noraid people entered the St. Patrick’s Day Parade illegally at mid-point and marched by the grandstand holding a large Irish flag desecrated with the letters IRA, a letter for each color.

It is the job of the San Francisco consul general to guard against such things by send a representative to major western parades and speaking up when such a thing happens. He doesn’t. He attends the American Ireland Fund dinner in La Jolla, in his tux, but will not dirty his hands with mundane things such as protecting the flag.

During a visit to Ireland I was shocked to see thousands of people driving around Dublin with the Irish flag flapping from their car windows with “Guinness” written on the white section of the flag. This was done in association with an international soccer game. The Irish Government should never have allowed such crass commercialization of the national flag.

Can anyone imagine such a thing happening in America? Where is your pride in your national flag? When you show it some respect you can start complaining about a unionist carrying his flag in Seattle.

No, more like a Maltese Cross

Yes, yes. I love to vote. My wife and I had not been to church in years, but we went back recently just to vote on the new minister. There's something about an election that gets your Irish up!

Alan,
A bit rusty on how one becomes the patron Saint of any particular country. I presume that perhaps the bishops and cardinals of that particular country nominate you to the Vatican. A bit like the Eurovision I suppose. Still, it's a problem for those I'll leave behind rather than myself....

IT

Some might say that the sight alone of Ol' Glory is crass in and of itself. Of course, I'm not one of them...

Davros
St Patrick was british,i know this,however compare this to St George(he was turkish)On the few occasions ive seen a St Georges day celebration,ive never seen a turkish flag,to celebrate his birthplace.He is the patront saint of Ireland,i believe that union jacks/st patricks cross's etc should be welcome in N Ireland to show the different types of irishness we have.Both flags are equal,however due to numbers the Tricolour will always be more visible on St Paddys day than a union flag.

The cross of st P was not created after the act of Union, there were reports of it being found on maps (not just British ones) to represent Ireland in the decades before 1800 at least.

I can't comment on the other cross of which you speak as I haven't heard of it before.

I presume that perhaps the bishops and cardinals of that particular country nominate you to the Vatican

While I'm no expert, I'd imagine it was more to do with the government of the country, or internal to the church in that country (I could easily be wrong). I read somewhere that St Patrick wasn't actually canonised and therefore not technically, in the eyes of the catholic church at least, a saint. Maybe someone can explain this a bit better?

Beano, are you attempting to decommission St Patrick's Sainthood?

Surely if the Patricks Cross was the main flag to celebrate Patricks day, the whole thing would be much more inclusive to unionists such as myself. The tricolour represents republicanism to unionists, not Ireland.

The St Patricks Cross represents Unionists to republicans,maybe we should just design a new flag altogether.

surely the Patricks Cross is a good compromise between the union flag and the tricolour?

actually a better compromise would be http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1648/flags.htm -look under provincial flags,if ever a United Ireland did come about,this would most likely be the flag to which the tricolour would be changed to... i believe this flag represents us all the most.

the four province flag? hmmmm, it looks a bit odd

perhaps,but it is more interesting to look at than a flag with a red cross through it.

Maybe John Rocha could be hired to come up with something.

yes,sounds great,anyways i hope you all have a good last 3 hours of St Patricks Day,im going to get pissed. :).

That link was over bandwidht, if it was the 4 provinces flag I don't consider it neutral at all. Perhaps its because of the use of the four provincial flags (independently) by republicans, I don't know.

It's definitely not a compromise for St Patrick's day. I do prefer the cross of St Patrick because at least it's a flag for St Patrick, not Ireland.

or the Ra for that matter.

I have to say that the northern Ireland flag or Union Jack are my flag but that on seeing the St Patrick`s flags in the parades I actually felt like going. Surely such a flag could be used as an All-Ireland flag for the likes of the Irish Rugby team?
By using the Tri-colour is comes across as "us" having lost out. I believe it would be beneficial to have an All-Ireland flag and anthem whilst maintaing the flags and anthems of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and apply each appropriately.

I'm with Rebecca's original comment. The whole day is very little to do with St Patrick and has become Irish day. Why don't we all just admit it? This is why it's celebrated most where people feel Irish - in the capital of the Republic of Ireland and the worldwide 'capitals' / communities of the Irish diaspora. It's a great day to celebrate being Irish - no harm in that as long as you don't have to feel guilty about what particular brand of Irish you are. It works well in America as they just need an excuse to generate more business / money.

Very little coverage of any Unionist oriented celebrations:-

a bit late but.............

St. Patricks Day Festival 2005

The Maiden City Festival Committee St. Patrick's Day Festival arrangements for the 17th March are at an advanced stage and almost completed. The day will begin with a service of Thanksgiving in St. Columbs Cathedral at 10.30am. A full day of free entertainment will take place in the Apprentice Boys of Derry Memorial Hall from 2.00pm. The doors of the hall will open at 11.30am. with the entertainment suitable for all age groups. I would encourage as many of our members, their friends and families to come along and support the Maiden City Festival Committee with this venture.

Rising Sons of William FB Cormeen, St Patrick's Day Parade

Location: Killylea
Date: Thursday 17th March
Time: 7:30 pm

St Patrick's celebrations

GRANSHA Rural Community Development Association are holding their annual
St Patrick's Day celebrations in Gransha Orange Hall, off the Dromara to
Rathriland road, on March 17.

The Ulster Scots evening includes the Brunswick Accordian Band,
traditional group 'Risin Stour' and the Gransha Pipe Ensemble. The
event, which begins at 8pm, is hosted by local comedian Leonard Shields and
admission is £5. For more details call Verdun Bond on 02897532193.

Orange parade in Ballymena this Saturday

Easter Monday Arrangements

Below are the official arrangements for the annual Easter Monday parade on Monday 28th March 2005 in Newtonards.

* de-bussing point at South Street where there is an entrance to Dairy Hall playing fields. Buses will then proceed to William Street and Hardford Link for pick up.

* religious service will be held at 12.30 p.m.

* parade will move off at 1.00pm sharp for the parade around the town of Newtonards.

* all Clubs to respect the war memorial on Castle Street and instruct all bands to stop playing before it.

Cavanman
"Davros i disagree,the tricolour is the national flag of the Republic of Ireland."

A contradiction in terms, you are confusing nation and state. Sometimes you do get nation states, but by no means always.
The Irish Republic is a state, not a nation.
The island of Ireland is a nation. There are two states on the island of Ireland and the tricolour represents one of the two.
To save all the shit, and rob the crazies on both sides of something to get all het up about, one flag should be used for St. Patrick's Day - the flag of St.Patrick.

Incidentally, aside from the union flag incident, this guy Calvert from Lisburn is a complete nutcase, with an IQ comparable to that of your average goldfish.
Though you wouldn't half know there was an election coming up.

Who's Calvert? Did I miss something?

"The island of Ireland is a nation." Is Ulster / NI not also a nation then also? There are Ulster Nationalists about or Northern Irish.

The Irish Republic is a state, not a nation. The island of Ireland is a nation. There are two states on the island of Ireland and the tricolour represents one of the two.

Subjective cavanman, subjective at best; you state it like it's a fact. To around a million of us, the island is just that, an island. It's a geographical entity and nothing more.

As for whether or not NI constitutes a nation, legally no, it's a constituent 'country' (?) of the UK. Culturally, it's as open to debate as the whole "The island of Ireland is a nation" statement.

I was at the parade... here is an email I sent to the Lisburn press yesterday:

---------------------------------------------------

The following is from a news story in the Seattle Times newspaper in Seattle, Washington USA. It pertains to the Mayor of Lisburn and his behavior while in this country. Before sharing the story with you, I would like to remind you of the Lisburn City Council's webpage and what it says about the Mayors responsibility.

on the council webpage: http://www.lisburncity.gov.uk/your_city_council/mayor/

it states:

As first citizen of the City the Mayor will actively
lead on all matters of civic life, take
responsibility for chairing Council meetings,
undertake the management of the full Council
and positively represent the City of Lisburn
and its residents to the wider community both
domestically and internationally.


...So why is it that I witnessed the following news event in Seattle?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Local News: Sunday, March 13, 2005

British Union Jack disrupts St. Patrick's Day Parade

By Tan Vinh

Seattle Times staff reporter

At the start, it looked as if the 34th annual St. Patrick's Day Parade would provide the usual afternoon of family fun, with marching bands and dancing leprechauns to honor the patron saint of the Emerald Isle.

Then a dignitary from the British territory of Northern Ireland — invited by parade sponsors to help lead the procession through downtown — raised the British Union Jack, and several spectators got their Irish up, hurling objects and expletives at him during the milelong march.

To Irish Americans who object to the British rule of Northern Ireland, carrying that flag was considered the equivalent of "waving the Confederate flag at a Martin Luther King march," several Irish American community groups said yesterday.

Lisburn Mayor Cecil Calvert, appeared unfazed, even as passers-by got in his face and yelled in his ears. One woman tried to knock the flag out of his hands.

"This is a slap in the face. That flag represents the military occupation of Ireland," said Jenna Stephens, who paraded with the Committee for Truth and Justice in Ireland.

Calvert said he was merely celebrating St. Patrick's Day like everyone else. The holiday, he said, "is not just for the nationalist community."

The Irish Heritage Club traditionally invites dignitaries from Ireland to join in the parade.

The Seattle-based club invited the mayor from Lisburn last year without incident and had no indication that the new mayor would carry the Union Jack flag until the day before the parade.

Parade organizers tried to talk him out of it, but according to Calvert's aides, "He felt it was important to demonstrate his British roots," said John Keane, a spokesman for the Irish Heritage Club. "We felt we did not have the right to censor him."

"I was disappointed in him," Keane said of the mayor. "But I was also disappointed in the reaction of some people. They allowed him to provoke them."

Many cursed at Calvert but no fights broke out, and the Seattle police made no arrests.

The pre-parade events were a clue that this year's would not be the usual St. Patrick's Day celebration. During the Irish and the American national anthems, dignitaries, by tradition, stand on the second floor of a building at the corner of Fourth Avenue and Jefferson Street with the Irish and the U.S. flags.

Among them were parade co-grand marshal Rob McKenna, the state attorney general, and Mayor Catherine Connolly of Galway, Seattle's sister city in Ireland. Calvert was a no-show.

Then Calvert appeared at the start of the parade with his flag. Some passers-by taunted him, but the mayor ignored them. Later, Calvert emphasized he was not making any political statement, merely carrying the flag of his people.

"It is not our intention to have any confrontation. We are here in the spirit of friendship," said Lisburn Chief Executive Norman Davidson, who marched with the mayor.

"I am very upset. They [parade organizers] should have taken the flag from him," said Bernadette Noonan, who was in the parade with another group.

Tan Vinh: 206-515-5656 or tvinh@seattletimes.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This action was like bringing a KKK flag to a Martin Luther king rally and it was so very disappointing... whether it is right or wrong, there are a lot of bad feelings amongst Irish heritage people here about perceived treatment by the English. Most of us are big enough to work through these feeling in a positive way, but I along with many others here were horrified to see this flag at a St. Patrick's day parade, and it is my thought that such a prestigious man should have known better than to have created such a fervor while representing his city, county and country.
A very upset Irish/American

Glenn R. McGloughlin
20126 Ballinger Way NE #272
Shoreline, Washington 98155
USA
gmcgloughlin@comcast.net

waving a union jack on st.pat's day? Why? Are we celebrating st.patrick's or st.andrew's and st.georges(the palestinian) all in one go?
Get that loony DUP sectarian gobshite of the streets of the lovely Seattle. If the unionist people had paid any attention to their patron saint over the last century instead of pretending they are more british than the lesser patron saint celebrating british we'd have agreed on st'pat's cross a long time ago,until a concensus is gained,enjoy the tricolour beano and mcdonald and the lovely rebecca black.

SeamusG, our St.Patrick was not a catholic, more reason to celebrate!!

"The holiday, he said, "is not just for the nationalist community.""

Is he right?

Well obviously to all those complaining about the use of the Union flag in the parade, the holiday *is* just for the nationalist community.

That's cleared that up then, I can fell less guilty about not feeling that is is a celebration I can join in with.

Well what can one say. Good on him for standing firm. I witnessed on the tv the horror of IRA/SF yobs taking over Belfast City centre and waving foreign flags in the process. Why did the police not use water cannon on this riff raff.

God Save The Queen.

Glennlump

Here in Northern Ireland / the North of Ireland / the six counties, call it what you will, there has been an effort to have the Protestant community 'embrace' the notion of St Patrick's Day. This has included encouraging them (includes me) to parade. It's being sold as a day to celebrate St Patrick, a Christian saint - in fact it is, (has become), a day to celebrate being Irish. It's a nationalist day. Irish tricolours, shamrocks, leprechaun outfits, lots of drink.

But they're trying to make it an all inclusive carnival. There's nothing wrong with that - but it includes Northern Irish Protestant culture (and therefore the Union Flag). We have this debate every year here. It's time Seattle and every other 'Irish' community had it too. The presence of the Union flag should not be seen as a threat. Would St Patrick object?

"while representing his city, county and country."

Erm....the Union Jack is the official flag of Northern Ireland.
Whatever happened to equality and inclusiveness?
Or is it all just double speak for Brits Out..Prods Out? If you are going to invite a Unionist mayor then you should atleast display his flag alongside the US and Republic of Ireland flag and play his anthem.....although a compromise of the NI flag or St Patrick`s Cross may be possible.

The St Patrick's cross, the red multiplication X, was adopted by George III for his newly established Order of St Patrick which was created mabout 1780. It was used subsequently in the new union flag in 1801. The cross was taken from the arms of the Fitzgerald family, and has a history of usage going back well before 1780. However, it has no sectarian connotations, and is not used by any political parties so in my opinion is a suitable flag to use on St Patrick's day.

"horrified to see this flag at a St. Patrick's day parade"

why? there were plenty of Union flags, NI flags and St Patrick`s Cross flags in parades in Ireland. Is St Patrick`s only for a certain type of Irish people?

Isn`t that what the Orange in the Tricolour is for? To represent the Orange / Protestant community in Ireland..those with a sense of Britishness as well as Irishness? Maybe I am missing something...

Alan2,
"Surely such a flag could be used as an All-Ireland flag for the likes of the Irish Rugby team?"

The red saltire on a white background already is the flag of the Irish rugby team and the IRFU, not the tricolour.

Rebecca,
the red saltire on a white background is a British creation and as such is as much a "compromise" between the tricolour and union flag as the harp on the green background is.

It is fine to use it to represent things that are important to large sections of the population like the IRFU, RNLI etc. but to represent the people of Ireland as whole, wholly inappropriate.

It would be the equivalent of using the confederate flag to represent all Americans, great for some offensive for many.

"Isn`t that what the Orange in the Tricolour is for? To represent the Orange / Protestant community in Ireland..those with a sense of Britishness as well as Irishness? Maybe I am missing something...

That's the official line, yes. But that's like saying the Union Flag includes the Cross of St Patrick - due to the way the flag has been (ab)used over the years, it's no longer fair to say that either could be deemed inclusive.

"The red saltire on a white background already is the flag of the Irish rugby team and the IRFU, not the tricolour."

As far as I know, the IRFU actually use the 4 provinces flag with an IRFU badge in the middle, reflecting the organisation of rugby by province on the island.

"It would be the equivalent of using the confederate flag to represent all Americans, great for some offensive for many."

The same could be said of the tricolour.

"This action was like bringing a KKK flag to a Martin Luther king rally and it was so very disappointing"

The Union flag is like the flag of the Ku Klux Klan?? What are you talking about? Thats the most offensive thing I have ever heard on slugger, I really think you ought to apologise for that.

Rebecca that guy didn't post on slugger. That was a quote from a gmcgloughlin whom I have emailled in the interim to explain his own ignorance to him :)

The unionists commenting on this thread would have more credibility were they to outline what their community is doing to show respect for the tricolour as the national flag of the nationalist community here.

Do they agree with the Sinn Fein proposal that public buildings in the north should fly BOTH flags (Union Jack and Tricolour) or neither? Or do they repeat the unionist mantra that only the British flag is welcome?

If the latter, then they can not have any complaints when people feel more than justified in celebrating the patron saint's day in the same manner as other irish people throughout the world.

I believe there can be room in the future for addressing the flags issue, but only when unionists are willing to accept the legitimacy of the emblems of the nationalist tradition here.

Calvert can bemoan the absence of union jacks at parades in Seattle but does nothing to address the failure of his own Council to embrace nationalist emblems.

Why should the unionist community show respect for the flag of the Shankill bombers and the McCartney murderers ?

Why should we flag the tricolour in Northern Ireland? Its the UK!!

Although while we're on this topic, why is the union flag never flown in dublin or anywhere in Ireland? On buildings where they have the french flag, german flag, american flag etc etc, there is never a union flag. What about the British people in the republic?

The entire irony about St Patricks day is that it is supposed to be about christianity, not about drinking yourself into a heap on the floor in the name of Ireland. Maybe if we concentrated on celebrating the memory of Patrick (if he ever existed, for which there is no evidence!) instead of stage-irishness then it whole thing would be much more inclusive in Northern Ireland.

There is evidence the guy (St P) existed, just not that any of the stories about him are true (there were never any snakes on this island etc).

Davros something tells me your scope's a bit limited, the same could be asked of why should the nationalist community respect the flag of the shankill butchers or the killers of x y and z (r paddy, seamus and mick if you prefer). Get over it.

Re the buildings/flags, I wouldn't want to see the tricolour flown on public buildings in NI. Maybe that's unfair but I just wouldn't be comfortable with it. The councils and other institutions are legally a part of the UK local government system. If/when that changes we'll talk about the tricolour.

Do any other countries fly two flags? The fact of the matter is that the official flag of NI is the Union Jack. That is a fact. Another fact is that Lisburn has a large Unionist majority. Now that does not mean that the Nationalist community should be belittled or ignored but the fact of the matter remains that it is the flag of the country.
A better option in my opinion would be a Northern Ireland flag supported by all communities in NI.

And to be honest it is not really comaprable to a Saint Patrick`s Day parade which is portrayed as a festival for the whole community.

Irishman - pure whataboutery - we're bad because you're bad and that means we're not bad at all ad nauseum through a number years of history - the *number* of which we can't even agree on.

Everyone feels happy after a good oul argument and there's lots of blame, but no progress.

So can you explain to me in words of two syllables or less why we should feel included in a celebration where 'your' flag is acceptable but 'ours' aint, without resorting to 'we do it because you do it' arguments.

'Why should the unionist community show respect for the flag of the Shankill bombers and the McCartney murderers ?'

That's simple, Davros. It is not the flag of the Shankill bombers or the McCartney murderers.

If you want to bring it to that level, I think you'll find that tens of millions of more people were killed by those carrying the Union flag than the Irish Tricolour.

'Re the buildings/flags, I wouldn't want to see the tricolour flown on public buildings in NI. Maybe that's unfair but I just wouldn't be comfortable with it. The councils and other institutions are legally a part of the UK local government system. If/when that changes we'll talk about the tricolour.'

I'd agree with Beano on this point, although I suspect I differ in the opinion about whether such constitutional change needs to be brought about.

smcgiff

thats true that more people have been killed by those carrying the union flag but that is undoubtedly because the Union flag has been around alot longer than the Irish tricolour and the fact the the UK has fought in two world wars while the Irish prefer to stay neutral.

However the tricolour has been hijacked by a major terrorist organisation so you could argue that the tricolour has flown over alot more illegitimate killings than the union flag has.

Seamus - when the decent people claim it back from the dirt-bags and plastics then the unionist community will change it's attitude.

If you want to bring it to that level

What "level" Seamus ? A specific question was asked.I didn't bring the issue of the Tricolour up as a gratuitous insult. To me the first image I think of with the tricolour is of a terrorist's coffin being accompanied by Gerry Adams. Just as it's perfectly legitimate for people of a nationalist or republican persuasion here to feel that the Union Flag can never be their flag, it's perfectly reasonable to say that for an awful lot of the unionist community the tricolour will never be their flag. Hoepefully generations to come will feel differently WHEN the tricolour is reclaimed from the Johnny-Adair-equivalents who disgrace the Union flag.

The responses to my post were nothing if not typical.

Alan seems to have a problem with showing respect for minorities, as in Lisburn. Would you be content if nationalists in Newry/ Mourne, Cookstown, Magherafelt etc. displayed the same disregard towards unionists as a minoirty grouping? I think not.

Davros' gut sectarianism came through in his reply, which has been amply dealt with by other posters.

The fact remains that this is a divided society; dismissing the tricolour because the north remains under British sovereignty at present is simply a cop-out by unionists.

Sooner or later the unionist community is going to have to deal with its inability to respect the legitimacy of the nationalist tradition.

Rebecca,

To say the Irish were not involved in both world wars is simply not true. The Irish Republic, which was not in existence for WW1, was not officially involved in WW2.

Have you forgotten that the Union flag has been hijacked by Loyalist terrorists?

As for legitimate, well I can't let you get away with that either. The Dresden bombing was 'legitimate'.

I'll give you a definition of legitimate - The actions of the victors.

Actually, loyalists tend to use the Ulster Flag rather than the Union flag.

Secondly, of course there were irish men fighting in both WWs, but they had to fight under the union flag because their own country refused to fight.

As for the Dresden bombing, I have three words for you war time situation.

"Sooner or later the unionist community is going to have to deal with its inability to respect the legitimacy of the nationalist tradition.'

leave nationalists out of it, unionists do not have a problem with nationalists, its physical force republicans we do have a problem with. Its also physical force republicans that are making the goal of a united ireland less and less likely to ever happen by the barbaric methods they are employing.

I resent the accusation of gut sectarianism.
You asked a question and got an honest answer.
Too bad it doesn't sit comfortably with your own bigotry.

Davros,

I've never been to NI (Scotland, England, Wales - Yes), but the difference between me and you is that I can respect the national flag of those living in the UK. I have and will continue to show the Union Flag due respect. I have respect for the people of the UK and will respect their flag. I will not let the Johnny Adairs of this world affect me.

I think the British people in this, the 21st, century have nothing but the best interests of the people in NI at heart.

That you cannot reciprocate the respect for the Republic's flag says, perhaps, more about your own personal experiences in life. That is something which I regret.

Rebecca,
as for Dresden, I have five words for you, hundred thousand dead mostly refugees.

And as hard as you may find it to believe, the union flag was and is the flag of the oppressor for many nations in this world, stained with the blood of innocents.

Would you be content if nationalists in Newry/ Mourne, Cookstown, Magherafelt etc. displayed the same disregard towards unionists as a minoirty grouping?

At least one nationalist council has been slated for apparent discrimination .... And as pointed out PB refused a senior post on a Lisburn Council committee.

"Do any other countries fly two flags?"

Scotland and Wales, I think.

Davros, your statement re. "respecting the flags of the shankill bombers" does show at worst bigotry and at best double standards if you would like nationalists to respect the Union Flag, which has also been waved by murderers. And Rebecca, Loyalists fly both flags, as well as others (St Andrew's Saltire for example).

Who, the suggestion of a dual flag policy has really touched a nerve with unionist posters. Fantastic stuff! I suppose it is a kind of whataboutery, but still, it is interesting. I mean, the point of this thread is about Union Jacks being accepted at St Patrick’s Day – which has traditionally been the national holiday for those of us who are of Ireland and for Ireland. So it’s legitimate to draw out the allergic reaction Union Jack-wavers have to the Irish flag.
(Sorry to say this Davros, but that comment about the Irish flag being the flag of the Shankill bombers was disgraceful.)
Rebecca
``Why should we flag the tricolour in Northern Ireland? It’s the UK!!’’
I suppose a lot depends on nomenclature. I would see the question more as: why shouldn’t the flag of Ireland be flown in Ireland? We have a divided community here, with two large blocs who give their allegiance to different political constructs – why should one of those constructs be recognised and the other not? You say: ``It’s the UK’’ – to which my response is: not in any meaningful sense it’s not. Sorry, but you know it.
``why is the union flag never flown in dublin or anywhere in Ireland? On buildings where they have the french flag, german flag, american flag etc etc, there is never a union flag.’’
This is a question of practice, not policy. The point is that in the north we are talking about official policies
``What about the British people in the republic?’’

(Ah, you used the dreaded what about’ formulation!) But seriously: what about them? They are free to fly any flag they want. We’re not comparing like with like here. You’re comparing a mature, successful democracy, buttressed by overwhelming popular will, against a rivened, failing colony. The Republic has a flag that has overwhelming popular endorsement. NI has no such flag. Jesus, NI doesn’t even have an agreed name – so you see why norms elsewhere can’t be taken as workable models here.

Are you suggesting that in the Republic, the state should intervene and insist on the flying of Union Jacks? If so, I would simply make the point that there is no significant popular support for such a course. In the north there is very substantial popular support for the elevation of the Irish flag as the dual flag. (Though of course, even more substantial popular opposition from those who already have their flag.)

Most people in Ireland instinctively hate the Union Jack – it’s seen as the butcher’s apron. I’m a proud Irishman and I share that revulsion at the flag. I recognise though that, though I and my community undoubtedly have genuine grievances about things carried out by carriers of that flag, my revulsion ultimately begins at home. Similarly, unionism’s hatred of the Irish flag says more about unionism than about the Irish flag.

Until we have a single, agreed flag for all of Ireland, NI should dual flags.

"Alan seems to have a problem with showing respect for minorities, as in Lisburn."

"Sooner or later the unionist community is going to have to deal with its inability to respect the legitimacy of the nationalist tradition."

No I don`t. I would hope I would be the first to stand up to any discrimination. I certainly came close to getting a good kicking one night when so called "loyalists" decided to have a go on a wee Brazillian / Portugese lad half the size of the guy that decided to punch him. I am not sure what the solution is but it is not to be "ashamed to show the flag of the country". The Republic of Ireland flag is inappropriate as we are not part of the Republic of Ireland...therefore either an All-Ireland or a Northern Ireland flag agreed by all seems the logical conclusion.

Seamus - there's a lot of people like me. 35 years of people like Gerry and Martin has not helped me appreciate their flag. I have no problems with it in the 26 Counties.

Does any other country fly two flags? Wales and Scotland I think.

Davros, if you would like nationalists to respect the Union Flag (although I wonder if you prefer them to disrespect it as it gives you more mud to sling) you must concede that the Irish tricolour is no more or less the flag of murderers than the Union Flag. Both have been waved by murderers to try and justify their actions. I am uncomfortable with the tricolour (as used in NI), but I cannot help but admit that simple fact.

Rebecca, "Actually, loyalists tend to use the Ulster Flag rather than the Union flag." I think you'll find they fly both and then some (St Andrew's saltire?).

British people in the republic free to fly any flag? I don't think so, in theory perhaps, in practise, absolutely not.

"This is a question of practice, not policy. The point is that in the north we are talking about official policies"

no, I think its policy that union flags are never flown under any circumstances in the south, and that is relevant because why should Northern Ireland fly the tricolour outside gov, buildings when in Ireland they won't even fly the union flag beside the flags of europe outside hotels?

As for smgliff

WW2 was a legitimate war, fought and understood to be a legitimate war by all sides.

sorry for repeating myself, site seems to be playing up on me at my end :(

Davros

``At least one nationalist council has been slated for apparent discrimination .... And as pointed out PB refused a senior post on a Lisburn Council committee.''

That's a weasel post. Which council? Who did the slating? What is ``apparent discrimination''? Is this the thing about Isaac Hanna in Newry and Mourne again? If so, I'm very disappointed - we discussed this months ago and you conceded the point then.

Billy - it was an honest answer to an important question. If you want to blame anybody blame the thugs and psychos who have dishonoured your flag.

Beano - My comments were about the tricolour. I understand why nationalists and republicans have problems with the Union flag. I ask the same consideration for my community in respect of the tricolour. It is FACTUAL that the tricolour was draped over terrorist's coffins. No point in asking why people in the unionist community are averse to the flag and then getting precious when an honest answer is given. Or are you really saying that the tricolour was placed on those coffins or flies as Gerry says "They haven't gone away, you know" as a gesture of reconciliation ?

"Scotland and Wales, I think"

So your saying we should fly the NI flag AND the Union Jack ;)

No, seriously I have NO problem with the Irish Tricolour and indeed the fact that a Nationalist parade through kilkeel which is 90% Protestant only drew a few complaints but absolutely NO protests sort of indicates Unionist opinion on this. It was a peaceful parade...and nothing to do with us...so they stayed at home and let people get on with it.

I have no problems with the Irish tricolour being flown in the Republic of Ireland or on the Irish embassy or anywhere else but is is NOT the flag of NI and I am not sure a dual flag policy actually solves anything. It would be better to agree a common flag of some sort for common useage.

That's a weasel post.

it was a FACTUAL post Billy.

( Is it my computer or has the formatting on this thread gone crazy ? )

Rebecca

``no, I think its policy that union flags are never flown under any circumstances in the south''.

Regardless of what you ``think', it's not policy. This is simply a fact. What you ``think'' is no argument.

``why should Northern Ireland fly the tricolour outside gov, buildings when in Ireland they won't even fly the union flag beside the flags of europe outside hotels?''

I have made this point already: in the south, there is nothing preventing the flying of Union Jacks. That you rarely see them is simply a matter of popularlity - or lack thereof. There is an interesting debate to be had about why most Irish people are so negative about the Union Jack, but that's a different debate.

In the north however, there is widespread popular support for the elevation of the Irish flag. Official policies make this impossible. This is the essential mismatch underlying your analogy.

Davros all I'm saying is that if the tricolour is the flag of murderers, so is the Union Flag. I prefer the view that both are just the flags of a nation, and have been misappropriated by thugs. I'm sure you wouldn't have to look through too much news footage of loyalist funerals to find coffins of murderers draped in the Union Flag. What's good for the goose and all that...

Alan: "So your saying we should fly the NI flag AND the Union Jack ;)" Yes ;)

there is also widespread support for not flying the tricolour billy

Rebecca
Sorry but saying that union flags are not under any circumstance flown in ROI is bullshit,there were Union Jacks in the St Patricks Day Parade in dublin,the only flags which had more representation were the United States and the tricolour,Also you will find that hotels and businesses throughout the country fly the union flag.Limerick being a particular good example.

Davros.

A factual post? There wasn't a single fact in it. Which council? What does ``slated'' mean? Who did the ``slating''? What was the issue? Please - I'm interested in hearing the facts.

Rebecca

``there is also widespread support for not flying the tricolour billy''

Agreed. The fault line is between a community that has official recognition for its flag insisting that the other community should be denied same.

Davros, Rebecca, I'm arguing on the same "side" here but I wish you'd think before posting.

Rebecca, "there is also widespread support for not flying the tricolour" This is true but there is also popular widespread support for not flying the Union Flag!

'WW2 was a legitimate war, fought and understood to be a legitimate war by all sides.'

Rebeca,

You've gone from the specifics to the ultimate generality. I'm not even sure what you mean by 'legitimate war by all sides.'

If the fire bombing and killing of tens of thousands of men, women, children in a non-industrial, non-strategic, wooden city can somehow be justified then the killing of hundreds of men, women and children by both sides in the name of their particular constitutional battle in NI is justified.

You can't name one (or even all combined) act of atrocity perpetrated in NI in the name of republicanism or loyalism that isn't grossly overshadowed by the murder of those in Dresden.

Beano - I understand what you are saying. You are right. The Union Flag IS the flag abused by loyalist murderers. That in itself has nothing to do with the unionist community attitude to the tricolour. As long as the tricolour is abused in the North, as long as it is linked to partisan politics, as long as it is displayed with the intent to provoke or claim territory - and I'm not saying here that it is thus used every time it is displayed in N.I. - then it will struggle to earn respect in the unionist community. Equivalent abuses of the Union flag do not cancel out abuses of the tricolour.

So you don't think that nationalists should show any repsect to the Union Flag then?

There is no more reason to fly the Union flag in the republic than there is to fly the French, German, Portuguese or Estonian flags.

Outside hotels, you often see three flags - Tricolour, EU and US.

The EU flag represents all 25 nations of the European Union, which last time I looked, included the UK. Thus, no need for a Union Flag any more than any other EU country's flag.

Rebecca

I have to agree with Cavanman, there is no problem flying the Union Flag in the Republic. I remember as a child it flying along with the other EEC (as it was then) flags in my school.
Certainly there are those that will call it the Butchers apron but for most people in the Republic Football rivalry is as far as Anti-Britishness goes.

Davros.

``As long as the tricolour is abused in the North, as long as it is linked to partisan politics, as long as it is displayed with the intent to provoke or claim territory then it will struggle to earn respect in the unionist community.''

But would you accept that many of these ``links'' and many of the motivations you ascribe to them exist mainly in the minds of unionists?

I don't think there is anything anyone can do externally to change the internal workings of another person's mind. Ultimately there is a very limited amount nationalists can do to make unionists less hostile to the Irish flag or the GAA or the Irish state or whatever the latest thing is that unionists feel excluded from. Ultimately all nationalists can do is try to avoid being provocative (even, or especially in unintentional ways), create a bit of space, and trust that our unionist brothers and sisters have enough maturity to make peace with their fellow Irish in their own hearts.

Ultimately unionists must make peace with the Irish flag in their own hearts. All nationalists can do is stop creating excuses for unionists to refuse to do so.

So you don't think that nationalists should show any repsect to the Union Flag then?

I would not and could not criticise them for not showing respect to the Union flag. Some are quick to point out the problems they have with it - I would ask those people to realise that many in the unionist community have just as valid reasons to be leery of the tricolour.

``unionists must make peace with the Irish flag in their own hearts''

- I put that badly. When I say `must', I mean that if unionists are ever to accept the Irish flag then this is a step that ``must'' be taken. I accept of course that there is no `must' about unionists ever accepting the Irish flag. We can but hope.

"there were Union Jacks in the St Patricks Day Parade in dublin,"

that`s good....so why the fuss in Seattle?....
No doubt the plastic paddies consider it the flag of the English occupiers without even realising it is the flag used by the the majority population in the North. Tolerance and respect for both flags is what is called for...

Davros,
I suppose the difference is that we in the Irish Republic haven't enshrined the annual burning of the union flag and other things British as part of our culture while in Northern Ireland the Irish flag, and Catholic and GAA symbols are ritually burned by the unionist population as part of their celebrations of their culture.

I find this celebration repugnant but the silence of the unionist politicians even more so.

It might go on at drunken 11th night bonfires but..."enshrined in annual ritual"...I hardly think so....the only thing I have ever seen burned is an effigy of Lundy along the same lines as Guy Fawkes.
The burning of anything else are in the realms of paramilitaries and extremists and are wrongly in my opinion but obviously a sign of defiance in response to a preceived threat.....hence why the opposite does not happen in the Republic as their is no perceived threat.

Does anyone know if the DUP's Jim Wells has still got that massive British Union Flag that he carried everywhere throughout the 1980's along with George Seawright and a few other hangers on he was a serial protester?

The size of the flag and the flagpole used made me wonder was he compensating for any physical under development.

But would you accept that many of these ``links'' and many of the motivations you ascribe to them exist mainly in the minds of unionists?

No, I wouldn't accept that Billy. However, even if I did accept it, IMO it's up to decent nationalists and republicans , the majority I hasten to add, to address the perceptions of the unionist community. Reclaim your flag from the riff-raff and those who use it to wave two fingers at the unionist community. The same onus is on the unionist community in respect of abuses of the Union flag.

Yesterday I drove through Kilrea a couple of times. Crowds of drunks, trouble though thankfully no stabbings or attacks on policemen. Last year I commented favourably on SF's efforts to defuse problems brewing in respect of Tricolours flying.
They all came down.

There was trouble over a Union flag at the war memorial around the time of Remembrance sunday.
After that a tricolour appeared opposite the Catholic Primary school flying from a telegraph pole - looks pathetic as it has got all tangled.
That was the only obvious one.
For St Patrick's day a huge Tricolour has been erected on top of a mobile phone mast on a hill overlooking the town. That does nobody any favours. A sign of reconciliation ? I don't think so. Territorial marking? Two fingers to local unionists ? You decide.

Rebecca,
"WW2 was a legitimate war, fought and understood to be a legitimate war by all sides."

Fighting a legitimate war doesn't not mean everything done in WWII was automatically legitimised. That is a horrendous view for you to take. Talk about giving soldiers carte blanche.

Sending up to 100,000 mostly refugees to their deaths, strafing defenceless women and children with gunfire and bombing them relentlessly hour after hour, day after day as they huddle defencelessly in open areas in around a city without any defence cannot be legitimised.

You should try get the accounts of some survivors before you legitimise such an act, carried out at the end of the war, purely for the sake of policing the peace in the future.

Davros,

There are two chances of getting the mob to respect either the Union Flag or the Irish Tricolour any time soon (ever).

There are even less chances for mutual respect if the middle ground allow the mob to dictate the attitudes of all.

Seamus - we aren't talking about the mob. Nothing will change their minds. We are talking about the normal decent members of the unionist and nationalist communities.

I'm not offended that for many in the nationalist community there is a reflex reaction of distaste on meeting the Union flag or the police. It's understandable considering the past here. I won't criticise them for that - I would ask the same consideration for members of my community who have a similar knee-jerk response when we see the tricolour.

George - you make fair points in respect of loyalists but I think you are using too broad a brush.

a bit of bother last night it seems
although partly to do with students in the holyland area of belfast...........
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4360621.stm

George

ah yeah, we should have just stood back while Hitler took over Europe, gassed mentally handicapped people, slavs, jews, political prisoners, black ppl....

don't be so ridiculous!

Davros,
do you really think I'm using too broad a brush?

In your estimation, what percentage of the thousands of 11th Night Bonfires in Northern Ireland have the Irish flag and other Irish symbols on them.

Maybe it's just the coverage in my country, but every picture of a bonfire I've seen just before it was lit had an Irish flag on the top.

What percentage do you think it is?

I suppose the difference is that we in the Irish Republic haven't enshrined the annual burning of the union flag and other things British as part of our culture

Strange then, that your brothers in Northern Ireland have.

'ah yeah, we should have just stood back while Hitler took over Europe, gassed mentally handicapped people, slavs, jews, political prisoners, black ppl....

don't be so ridiculous!'

Have you ever heard the one about two wrongs not making a right?

Where has George said it was right to kill handicapped people etc?

In your estimation, what percentage of the thousands of 11th Night Bonfires in Northern Ireland

Thousands ? Isn't than a bit of an exaggeration ? and it's that sort of exaggeration that causes problems. Where do the 'thousands' of Loyalists buy the 'thousands' of tricolours to put on the 'thousands' of bonfires ? Do they head down the Falls Road in their Rangers outfits and call in at the SF shop ?

There are several hundred bonfires. I have never attended an 11th night bonfire, so I cannot personally tell you what % involve burning a tricolour. Hopefully some other contributors will weigh in with their experiences.

Alan.

``the only thing I have ever seen burned is an effigy of Lundy along the same lines as Guy Fawkes.''

Jesus man, I've seen a few unionist bonfires in my time (before they were lit, usually in the run-up to the 11th night) and they ALWAYS have Irish flags and Irish emblems attached. An effigy of the pope used to be a favourite around the Alexander estate in Armagh if I remember rightly. Sometimes even GAA jerseys FFS, especially if the Harps or the Ogs had a good run in the championship that year. I can't believe you when you say you've only ever seen effigies of Lundy being burned. (Though that's pretty sick and medieval too, when you think about it.) Jesus, I'm a fenian and I've seen loads of fenian iconography being burned.

Rebecca

``ah yeah, we should have just stood back while Hitler took over Europe, gassed mentally handicapped people, slavs, jews, political prisoners, black ppl....''

The bombing of Dresden happened on 13 February 1945, just over two months before Hitler killed himself. The war was over anyway. The scale of Germany's annihilation was all that was at stake. Dresden was one of the 20th century's most complete war crimes, whatever way you look at it.

And as for this craic about the holocaust, let's be clear on this: the second world war was not about ending the holocaust. That was just a benign side-effect that only actually emerged after the fighting was over anyway. WWII was a geopolitical struggle. The lesser of the evils prevailed. Good. But the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo, and the obliteration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki proved that though the Nazis might have fitted the Evil profile, the opposing side was in no way Good.

Beano

``Strange then, that your brothers in Northern Ireland have.''

Please elaborate. I don't doubt for a second that some nationalists somewhere have burned Union Jacks, but I am not aware of any kind of ritual attached to it anywhere in northern nationalism. Nationalists don't have Brit-burning ceremonies. It simply doesn't happen, and no amount of weaselish, opaque, sneering innuendoes from sympathisers of effigy-incineration will change that.

One more point George - what % of the unionist community attends these bonfires ? What % of the non-loyalist unionist community attends these bonfires ? If you cannot answer then I'll take that as supporting my comment about using a broad brush, extrapolating from the dregs to smear an entire community in the way that some extrapolate from the dregs of the nationalist and republican community to smear all nationalists and republicans.

Most people here on both sides of TDF are fine , decent human beings. Even the ones who vote SF and DUP ;)

Rebecca,
I believe you are being ridiculous by saying that every action carried out by the Allies in World War II was justified.

You really should try and talk to some of the survivors of Dresden. Maybe you would think differently if you heard the countless stories of how they saw their loved ones gunned down, blown to smithereens, burnt to a cinder etc.

You'll pardon me if I don't continue this post as I actually feel nauseous at what you are trying to defend.

Davros.

``Most people here on both sides of TDF are fine , decent human beings. Even the ones who vote SF and DUP ;)''

TDF?

And I don't agree with this line about most people being `decent human beings'. This may be true in most aspects of their lives, but our problem here is the scale of middle class sectarianism. In every western society since the industrial revolution, the middle class has been the power broker, and NI is no exception. Sectarianism thrives in our middle class, and will only continue to thrive as long as we soothe our consciences with baloney about how most people here are `decent human beings' and it's just a rare few messing everything up.

Just did a quick google search on the bombing of Dresden: this was the first page that came up.

``In 1941 Charles Portal of the British Air Staff advocated that entire cities and towns should be bombed. Portal claimed that this would quickly bring about the collapse of civilian morale in Germany. Air Marshall Arthur Harris agreed and when he became head of RAF Bomber Command in February 1942, he introduced a policy of area bombing (known in Germany as terror bombing) where entire cities and towns were targeted.

One tactic used by the Royal Air Force and the United States Army Air Force was the creation of firestorms. This was achieved by dropping incendiary bombs, filled with highly combustible chemicals such as magnesium, phosphorus or petroleum jelly (napalm), in clusters over a specific target. After the area caught fire, the air above the bombed area, become extremely hot and rose rapidly. Cold air then rushed in at ground level from the outside and people were sucked into the fire.

In 1945, Arthur Harris decided to create a firestorm in the medieval city of Dresden. He considered it a good target as it had not been attacked during the war and was virtually undefended by anti-aircraft guns. The population of the city was now far greater than the normal 650,000 due to the large numbers of refugees fleeing from the advancing Red Army.''

(1) Internal Royal Air Force memo (January, 1945)

Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester, is also far the largest unbombed built-up the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westwards and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium. The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front, to prevent the use of the city in the way of further advance, and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.''

Interesting too that Churchill referred to the Dresden firestorm - which he authorised - as a ``mere act of terror and wanton destruction''.

Ah, World War II: that seminal battle of good versus evil.

Come on Rebecca. Sacred cows are lazy bastards that shit all over the place anyway.

Billy - TDF : That Damned Fence.

Have a good week-end all. I'm off .
God Bless.

Nationalists don't have Brit-burning ceremonies. It simply doesn't happen,"

Really? That's interesting. The Union Jack on top of August bonfires in Belfast and Newtownabbey must have been a figment of my imagination then. Pull your head out of the sand. It may not be as widespread as the burning of the tricolours (maybe it is, I don't know as I don't often frequent republican areas) but don't try and claim that "It simply doesn't happen".

'Nationalists don't have Brit-burning ceremonies. It simply doesn't happen,"

Reminds me of when one of the posters on here claimed that you never see anti prod graffiti in republican areas - 'it simply doesn't happen'.

Whenever I walk past the 'Kill All Huns' and 'Shankill Bomb - Ha Ha' graffiti on my way to work, I am always mindful of that comment.

"I can't believe you when you say you've only ever seen effigies of Lundy being burned."

Well that`s the truth. Sure I`vw seen the tricolours on top in Belfast..but then again I hav`nt attended many 11th night bonfires as they are almost exclusively attended by drunken yobs and paramilitaries.....which is why I think some form of community groups need to get more involved and move the thing to much earlier in the evening so you can invlove families in a festival atmosphere rather than the current drunken display with varying degrees of sinisterism involved.

Jaysus a little thread about a flag has balooned into sub discussions about the bombing of Dresden and a statistical analysis of the 11th night bonies.

Would yiz forever catch yourselves on.

You are all just proving the point that there is no respect for each others community or community symbols and while you all may *think* you are open minded - while you think the other lot are not, then you aren't either.

By throwing up reasons why the union flag is not welcome at a paddys day parade then you are throwing up reasons why unionists aren't welcome either.

Quite simple really. You can't think a community is bigotted without being one yourself.

George: I notice that as per you tricolour-burning is now a widespread “unionist” practice (reminds me of a letter on the PDN which pointed out that SF have taken to referring to “unionist death squads” rather than “loyalist”) Well I’m not a unionist, but from a middle-class prod background in NI, and neither I or anyone I know (and I mean that literally) has ever burnt a tricolour, GAA shirt etc. I have been to one bonfire on the 11th night in my life - and apart from making me smell of smoke, it wasn’t particularly exciting or interesting, certainly not the rabid sectarian feeding frenzy you’re determined to imagine - a lot of people in tracksuits drinking, and well, that’s it! I’m sure there are more virulent bonfires, and less, but the orgy of sectarian hatred and destruction that you describe is not engrained into the psyche or culture of any of my friends, unionist or otherwise, at home.

Incidentally, you are wrong about the IRFU; the tricolour is flown, as well as the four provinces flag, alongside the visior’s flag. And I noticed at the last match a yellow Ulster flag was flown, which is presumably a step towards a belated recognition that the tricolour’s presence alone is anachronistic and unrepresentative – something which I and many others have been banging on about for quite a while on the IRFU site..

Rebecca et al: Dresden was a horror that should not be justified, even in the context of an (overall) otherwise just war against an odious regime; as was the firebombing of Tokyo - I can recommend a fascinating film “The Fog of War”, about the career of Bob McNamara, among other things he echoed Curtis May’s assertion that if the Allies had lost the war those responsible would unquestionably have been tried as war criminals.

Billy et al: I have no hatred of the Irish flag, I’ve mellowed a lot in the last few years.. But there is no doubt that every time I see it, I can’t entirely disassociate it in my mind from all of the terrorist coffins it has draped, the IRA shows of force it has fluttered over etc etc. That may not be a problem with you, the way I don’t think of violent imperialism when I look at the Union flag. I don’t see any reason for a tricolour to be flown in an official capacity in NI.

'You can't think a community is bigotted without being one yourself.'

That sounds clever, Mnob, but it's false statement. It's a bit like, 'It takes one to know one.'

It doesn't take a baker to appreciate a nice cake! (Oh, that's dreadful - Apologies) ;-)

"Incidentally, you are wrong about the IRFU; the tricolour is flown, as well as the four provinces flag, alongside the visior’s flag. And I noticed at the last match a yellow Ulster flag was flown

A start, but I wouldn't be happy supporting Ireland until they fly Norn Irons flag with the tricolour, or something neutral like the St Patrick saltire.

It's a piece of coloured cloth. Get a grip.

I have a sentimental attactchment to the tricolour having grown up with it. It no blongs, as one poster suggested, to the Shankill bombers than the union jack belongs to the BNP. Those who use it for prod baiting, sectarian triumphalism or for terrorist shape throwing sessions show scant respect for it in my view. The point of the article is ignored. There is clearly a body of nationalist opinion which feels that the expression of a British cultural identity by those Irish people who self identify in this way is unacceptable in the context of a Paddy's day parade, indeed for at least one shinner pol it is a resigning matter. Why?

Lafcadio,
hate to disappoint you but I am not wrong about the IRFU. The IRFU flag is the red saltire on a white background.

The tricolour is flown at Lansdowne Rd. as it is Ireland's national flag but it is not the flag of the IRFU. Ask anyone on your IRFU site. In fact, just look at the flag on the site.

Are 11th Night bonfires a widespread practise in Northern Ireland? Yes

Are Irish flags, Catholic symbols, GAA jerseys etc. put on the overwhelming majority of 11th Night bonfires? Yes

Ergo, burning of Irish flags and other symbols is a widespread practise in Northern Ireland.

Or are you actually telling me that only a tiny percentage of 11th Night bonfires feature this practise?

Why do so many unionist try and fob off this vile practise as insignificant? It is part of a policy of dehumanising the Irish community, which makes it an awful lot easier for some to wantonly kill them.

Re. Cecil Calvert.

I think a point that has not yet been made is the manner in which he went about making his point. He grandstanded.

Setting aside the rights and wrongs, setting aside the whole issue: would anyone disagree if I said that Cecil Calvert was, frankly, being an arsehole about it?

Beano.

``I wouldn't be happy supporting Ireland until they fly Norn Irons flag with the tricolour, or something neutral like the St Patrick saltire.''

Nah mate. If you're honest, you'll never be happy supporting Ireland.