The Union Flag has as much, if not more, right to be associated with Saint Patrick as the Tricolour.

I noticed alot of St Patricks Cross flags on the TV coverage of the Armagh and Downpatrick events.....

I noticed alot of St Patricks Cross flags on the TV coverage of the Armagh and Downpatrick events.....

Yes, it would seem that only in Belfast do the participants feel it necessary to turn a simple celebration into an assertion of one community over the other (and expect the council to fund it?!). Throughout the rest of the island, it seems to have been fairly good natured and makes me wish I was anywhere but Belfast today.

The only flag that matters is the 5th century Welsh flag: two sinewy deep-chested singers of close harmony, crossed.

The St.Patricks cross, was hijacked and replaced by a bloody Scots Saltire, it has no Irish history, it was created by Brits after the act of Union. They forced the Saltire on us, just as they forced the Union.

It was a suitable insignia, on a blue background for Fascists in the thirties.

They forced the Saltire on us,

What has the Saltire to do with America ?

What has the Union Jack got to do with Ireland?

Only occupation, oppression and dispossession.

"They forced the saltire on us".
Are you several hundred years old?

Davros,

Too drole (from us in the "us").

Beano,

What the inhabitants of Belfast tend to do has kept my family "anywhere but Belfast" for 55 years.

occupation, oppression and dispossession.

God Help us , Gerry has been forced back into the arms of Noraid as nobody else will be bothered with him ( and they were so glad to have him back, all that nonsense about FOSF has been forgotten ) so I guess we'll see more 70's Noraid Nonsense ...

Davros, History has not changed, the British legacy was one of occupation, oppression and dispossession.

Gerry will have plenty of voters who will be bothered with him at the next election, including me.

Davros
The Union Flag has as much, if not more, right to be associated with Saint Patrick as the Tricolour.

Davros i disagree,the tricolour is the national flag of the Republic of Ireland,and is also the national flag for over 40% of the people in N Ireland,The Union Jack represents a minority on this island,so it cannot deserve more right to be associated with St Patrick.

Paddy,

If you are a Canadian, how can you vote in Ireland?

Personally I think Saints of the Catholic church have nothing whatsoever to do with any national flags. Sainthood isn't regional and nor is Catholicism for that matter.

All ex pats can vote. In the consticuency they were last registered in, for 15 years after the date of their last registration.

Call me a simpleton, but surely flying the Patricks Cross like they did at Belfast City Hall is the most appropriate flag to have on St Patricks day?

Afterall, it is St Patricks day, a day to celebrate St Patrick and the coming of christianity to Ireland, it is not as some people on this thread seem to think "Ireland Day" , if it was so then of course the tricolour should be flown in the republic when such a day should be celebrated. But its not, its St Patricks day so the Patricks Cross is unquestionably the most appropriate flag to be waved around. I don't see how anyone could possibly object to that exercising of logic.

Seamus,

Not being a Catholic myself, I have to ask: How does one get to be the Patron Saint of X (where X = an entity such as Ireland)?

I agree Rebecca, fly the St.Patricks Cross, not the Red Saltire.

and by the way, seeing as Patrick landed at Saul and is associated with the church of Armagh, if anything it should be a Northern Ireland day.

Rebecca Black
http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/geography/unionjack4.html
Because the cross of St Patrick respresents ''Ireland'' in the formation of the Union Flag,it is rightly or wrongly seen as a unionist/british flag,and is not accepted by the vast majority of irish people.

Gerry will have plenty of voters who will be bothered with him at the next election, including me.

Gerry is leaving Ireland and seeking election in the USA ? Great news for Ireland.

so paddy, what does ur patricks cross look like if the one in the Union flag isn't it?

Paddy,

Thanks for the clarification on Irish ex-pat voting rights. I guess 55 years is past the sell-by date.

It was a cross right way up, not a saltire.

A bit Alan, but if you really want a vote, I am sure it can be arranged!

Remember the old adage:

"Vote early, vote often!"

you mean like the english flag? the red cross?

Cavanman - I was careful with my post.

Davros :The Union Flag has as much, if not more, right to be associated with Saint Patrick as the Tricolour.

Davros i disagree,the tricolour is the national flag of the Republic of Ireland,and is also the national flag for over 40% of the people in N Ireland,The Union Jack represents a minority on this island,so it cannot deserve more right to be associated with St Patrick.

Answer one simple question Cavanman. What is the flag of Patrick's birthplace ? The Union Flag or the Tricolour ?

I'll remind you that Millions of people claim Irishness because one or more great great etc's was/were born in Ireland. Was Patrick born in Ireland ? No. He was born within the boundaries of the present UK whose flag is the Union Flag :)
So, The Union Flag has JUST as much right to be associated with Patrick as the Tricolour ...and a lot more right than the Millions of Plastic paddies at present drinking themselves into a stupor have to claim some dubious relationship.

It is time the Irish Republic (and I mean THE Irish Republic not some imaginary one that the IRA will bring about long after we are all dead) took ownership of the Irish National Flag.

It is time the people from Iveagh House posted around America did their job by ensuring that the Irish flag is treated with the same respect demanded by Americans for their national flag. They should send protocols to each of the organizing committees reminding them of their responsibilities to both flags.

Instead, all over America, the Shinners are misappropriating it as THEIR flag without a word of protest from the Irish consular officials.

Here in San Diego a few years ago the Noraid people entered the St. Patrick’s Day Parade illegally at mid-point and marched by the grandstand holding a large Irish flag desecrated with the letters IRA, a letter for each color.

It is the job of the San Francisco consul general to guard against such things by send a representative to major western parades and speaking up when such a thing happens. He doesn’t. He attends the American Ireland Fund dinner in La Jolla, in his tux, but will not dirty his hands with mundane things such as protecting the flag.

During a visit to Ireland I was shocked to see thousands of people driving around Dublin with the Irish flag flapping from their car windows with “Guinness” written on the white section of the flag. This was done in association with an international soccer game. The Irish Government should never have allowed such crass commercialization of the national flag.

Can anyone imagine such a thing happening in America? Where is your pride in your national flag? When you show it some respect you can start complaining about a unionist carrying his flag in Seattle.

No, more like a Maltese Cross

Yes, yes. I love to vote. My wife and I had not been to church in years, but we went back recently just to vote on the new minister. There's something about an election that gets your Irish up!

Alan,
A bit rusty on how one becomes the patron Saint of any particular country. I presume that perhaps the bishops and cardinals of that particular country nominate you to the Vatican. A bit like the Eurovision I suppose. Still, it's a problem for those I'll leave behind rather than myself....

IT

Some might say that the sight alone of Ol' Glory is crass in and of itself. Of course, I'm not one of them...

Davros
St Patrick was british,i know this,however compare this to St George(he was turkish)On the few occasions ive seen a St Georges day celebration,ive never seen a turkish flag,to celebrate his birthplace.He is the patront saint of Ireland,i believe that union jacks/st patricks cross's etc should be welcome in N Ireland to show the different types of irishness we have.Both flags are equal,however due to numbers the Tricolour will always be more visible on St Paddys day than a union flag.

The cross of st P was not created after the act of Union, there were reports of it being found on maps (not just British ones) to represent Ireland in the decades before 1800 at least.

I can't comment on the other cross of which you speak as I haven't heard of it before.

I presume that perhaps the bishops and cardinals of that particular country nominate you to the Vatican

While I'm no expert, I'd imagine it was more to do with the government of the country, or internal to the church in that country (I could easily be wrong). I read somewhere that St Patrick wasn't actually canonised and therefore not technically, in the eyes of the catholic church at least, a saint. Maybe someone can explain this a bit better?

Beano, are you attempting to decommission St Patrick's Sainthood?

Surely if the Patricks Cross was the main flag to celebrate Patricks day, the whole thing would be much more inclusive to unionists such as myself. The tricolour represents republicanism to unionists, not Ireland.

The St Patricks Cross represents Unionists to republicans,maybe we should just design a new flag altogether.

surely the Patricks Cross is a good compromise between the union flag and the tricolour?

actually a better compromise would be http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1648/flags.htm -look under provincial flags,if ever a United Ireland did come about,this would most likely be the flag to which the tricolour would be changed to... i believe this flag represents us all the most.

the four province flag? hmmmm, it looks a bit odd

perhaps,but it is more interesting to look at than a flag with a red cross through it.

Maybe John Rocha could be hired to come up with something.

yes,sounds great,anyways i hope you all have a good last 3 hours of St Patricks Day,im going to get pissed. :).

That link was over bandwidht, if it was the 4 provinces flag I don't consider it neutral at all. Perhaps its because of the use of the four provincial flags (independently) by republicans, I don't know.

It's definitely not a compromise for St Patrick's day. I do prefer the cross of St Patrick because at least it's a flag for St Patrick, not Ireland.

or the Ra for that matter.

I have to say that the northern Ireland flag or Union Jack are my flag but that on seeing the St Patrick`s flags in the parades I actually felt like going. Surely such a flag could be used as an All-Ireland flag for the likes of the Irish Rugby team?
By using the Tri-colour is comes across as "us" having lost out. I believe it would be beneficial to have an All-Ireland flag and anthem whilst maintaing the flags and anthems of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and apply each appropriately.

I'm with Rebecca's original comment. The whole day is very little to do with St Patrick and has become Irish day. Why don't we all just admit it? This is why it's celebrated most where people feel Irish - in the capital of the Republic of Ireland and the worldwide 'capitals' / communities of the Irish diaspora. It's a great day to celebrate being Irish - no harm in that as long as you don't have to feel guilty about what particular brand of Irish you are. It works well in America as they just need an excuse to generate more business / money.

Very little coverage of any Unionist oriented celebrations:-

a bit late but.............

St. Patricks Day Festival 2005

The Maiden City Festival Committee St. Patrick's Day Festival arrangements for the 17th March are at an advanced stage and almost completed. The day will begin with a service of Thanksgiving in St. Columbs Cathedral at 10.30am. A full day of free entertainment will take place in the Apprentice Boys of Derry Memorial Hall from 2.00pm. The doors of the hall will open at 11.30am. with the entertainment suitable for all age groups. I would encourage as many of our members, their friends and families to come along and support the Maiden City Festival Committee with this venture.

Rising Sons of William FB Cormeen, St Patrick's Day Parade

Location: Killylea
Date: Thursday 17th March
Time: 7:30 pm

St Patrick's celebrations

GRANSHA Rural Community Development Association are holding their annual
St Patrick's Day celebrations in Gransha Orange Hall, off the Dromara to
Rathriland road, on March 17.

The Ulster Scots evening includes the Brunswick Accordian Band,
traditional group 'Risin Stour' and the Gransha Pipe Ensemble. The
event, which begins at 8pm, is hosted by local comedian Leonard Shields and
admission is £5. For more details call Verdun Bond on 02897532193.

Orange parade in Ballymena this Saturday

Easter Monday Arrangements

Below are the official arrangements for the annual Easter Monday parade on Monday 28th March 2005 in Newtonards.

* de-bussing point at South Street where there is an entrance to Dairy Hall playing fields. Buses will then proceed to William Street and Hardford Link for pick up.

* religious service will be held at 12.30 p.m.

* parade will move off at 1.00pm sharp for the parade around the town of Newtonards.

* all Clubs to respect the war memorial on Castle Street and instruct all bands to stop playing before it.

Cavanman
"Davros i disagree,the tricolour is the national flag of the Republic of Ireland."

A contradiction in terms, you are confusing nation and state. Sometimes you do get nation states, but by no means always.
The Irish Republic is a state, not a nation.
The island of Ireland is a nation. There are two states on the island of Ireland and the tricolour represents one of the two.
To save all the shit, and rob the crazies on both sides of something to get all het up about, one flag should be used for St. Patrick's Day - the flag of St.Patrick.

Incidentally, aside from the union flag incident, this guy Calvert from Lisburn is a complete nutcase, with an IQ comparable to that of your average goldfish.
Though you wouldn't half know there was an election coming up.

Who's Calvert? Did I miss something?

"The island of Ireland is a nation." Is Ulster / NI not also a nation then also? There are Ulster Nationalists about or Northern Irish.

The Irish Republic is a state, not a nation. The island of Ireland is a nation. There are two states on the island of Ireland and the tricolour represents one of the two.

Subjective cavanman, subjective at best; you state it like it's a fact. To around a million of us, the island is just that, an island. It's a geographical entity and nothing more.

As for whether or not NI constitutes a nation, legally no, it's a constituent 'country' (?) of the UK. Culturally, it's as open to debate as the whole "The island of Ireland is a nation" statement.

I was at the parade... here is an email I sent to the Lisburn press yesterday:

---------------------------------------------------

The following is from a news story in the Seattle Times newspaper in Seattle, Washington USA. It pertains to the Mayor of Lisburn and his behavior while in this country. Before sharing the story with you, I would like to remind you of the Lisburn City Council's webpage and what it says about the Mayors responsibility.

on the council webpage: http://www.lisburncity.gov.uk/your_city_council/mayor/

it states:

As first citizen of the City the Mayor will actively
lead on all matters of civic life, take
responsibility for chairing Council meetings,
undertake the management of the full Council
and positively represent the City of Lisburn
and its residents to the wider community both
domestically and internationally.


...So why is it that I witnessed the following news event in Seattle?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Local News: Sunday, March 13, 2005

British Union Jack disrupts St. Patrick's Day Parade

By Tan Vinh

Seattle Times staff reporter

At the start, it looked as if the 34th annual St. Patrick's Day Parade would provide the usual afternoon of family fun, with marching bands and dancing leprechauns to honor the patron saint of the Emerald Isle.

Then a dignitary from the British territory of Northern Ireland — invited by parade sponsors to help lead the procession through downtown — raised the British Union Jack, and several spectators got their Irish up, hurling objects and expletives at him during the milelong march.

To Irish Americans who object to the British rule of Northern Ireland, carrying that flag was considered the equivalent of "waving the Confederate flag at a Martin Luther King march," several Irish American community groups said yesterday.

Lisburn Mayor Cecil Calvert, appeared unfazed, even as passers-by got in his face and yelled in his ears. One woman tried to knock the flag out of his hands.

"This is a slap in the face. That flag represents the military occupation of Ireland," said Jenna Stephens, who paraded with the Committee for Truth and Justice in Ireland.

Calvert said he was merely celebrating St. Patrick's Day like everyone else. The holiday, he said, "is not just for the nationalist community."

The Irish Heritage Club traditionally invites dignitaries from Ireland to join in the parade.

The Seattle-based club invited the mayor from Lisburn last year without incident and had no indication that the new mayor would carry the Union Jack flag until the day before the parade.

Parade organizers tried to talk him out of it, but according to Calvert's aides, "He felt it was important to demonstrate his British roots," said John Keane, a spokesman for the Irish Heritage Club. "We felt we did not have the right to censor him."

"I was disappointed in him," Keane said of the mayor. "But I was also disappointed in the reaction of some people. They allowed him to provoke them."

Many cursed at Calvert but no fights broke out, and the Seattle police made no arrests.

The pre-parade events were a clue that this year's would not be the usual St. Patrick's Day celebration. During the Irish and the American national anthems, dignitaries, by tradition, stand on the second floor of a building at the corner of Fourth Avenue and Jefferson Street with the Irish and the U.S. flags.

Among them were parade co-grand marshal Rob McKenna, the state attorney general, and Mayor Catherine Connolly of Galway, Seattle's sister city in Ireland. Calvert was a no-show.

Then Calvert appeared at the start of the parade with his flag. Some passers-by taunted him, but the mayor ignored them. Later, Calvert emphasized he was not making any political statement, merely carrying the flag of his people.

"It is not our intention to have any confrontation. We are here in the spirit of friendship," said Lisburn Chief Executive Norman Davidson, who marched with the mayor.

"I am very upset. They [parade organizers] should have taken the flag from him," said Bernadette Noonan, who was in the parade with another group.

Tan Vinh: 206-515-5656 or tvinh@seattletimes.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This action was like bringing a KKK flag to a Martin Luther king rally and it was so very disappointing... whether it is right or wrong, there are a lot of bad feelings amongst Irish heritage people here about perceived treatment by the English. Most of us are big enough to work through these feeling in a positive way, but I along with many others here were horrified to see this flag at a St. Patrick's day parade, and it is my thought that such a prestigious man should have known better than to have created such a fervor while representing his city, county and country.
A very upset Irish/American

Glenn R. McGloughlin
20126 Ballinger Way NE #272
Shoreline, Washington 98155
USA
gmcgloughlin@comcast.net

waving a union jack on st.pat's day? Why? Are we celebrating st.patrick's or st.andrew's and st.georges(the palestinian) all in one go?
Get that loony DUP sectarian gobshite of the streets of the lovely Seattle. If the unionist people had paid any attention to their patron saint over the last century instead of pretending they are more british than the lesser patron saint celebrating british we'd have agreed on st'pat's cross a long time ago,until a concensus is gained,enjoy the tricolour beano and mcdonald and the lovely rebecca black.

SeamusG, our St.Patrick was not a catholic, more reason to celebrate!!

"The holiday, he said, "is not just for the nationalist community.""

Is he right?

Well obviously to all those complaining about the use of the Union flag in the parade, the holiday *is* just for the nationalist community.

That's cleared that up then, I can fell less guilty about not feeling that is is a celebration I can join in with.

Well what can one say. Good on him for standing firm. I witnessed on the tv the horror of IRA/SF yobs taking over Belfast City centre and waving foreign flags in the process. Why did the police not use water cannon on this riff raff.

God Save The Queen.

Glennlump

Here in Northern Ireland / the North of Ireland / the six counties, call it what you will, there has been an effort to have the Protestant community 'embrace' the notion of St Patrick's Day. This has included encouraging them (includes me) to parade. It's being sold as a day to celebrate St Patrick, a Christian saint - in fact it is, (has become), a day to celebrate being Irish. It's a nationalist day. Irish tricolours, shamrocks, leprechaun outfits, lots of drink.

But they're trying to make it an all inclusive carnival. There's nothing wrong with that - but it includes Northern Irish Protestant culture (and therefore the Union Flag). We have this debate every year here. It's time Seattle and every other 'Irish' community had it too. The presence of the Union flag should not be seen as a threat. Would St Patrick object?

"while representing his city, county and country."

Erm....the Union Jack is the official flag of Northern Ireland.
Whatever happened to equality and inclusiveness?
Or is it all just double speak for Brits Out..Prods Out? If you are going to invite a Unionist mayor then you should atleast display his flag alongside the US and Republic of Ireland flag and play his anthem.....although a compromise of the NI flag or St Patrick`s Cross may be possible.

The St Patrick's cross, the red multiplication X, was adopted by George III for his newly established Order of St Patrick which was created mabout 1780. It was used subsequently in the new union flag in 1801. The cross was taken from the arms of the Fitzgerald family, and has a history of usage going back well before 1780. However, it has no sectarian connotations, and is not used by any political parties so in my opinion is a suitable flag to use on St Patrick's day.

"horrified to see this flag at a St. Patrick's day parade"

why? there were plenty of Union flags, NI flags and St Patrick`s Cross flags in parades in Ireland. Is St Patrick`s only for a certain type of Irish people?

Isn`t that what the Orange in the Tricolour is for? To represent the Orange / Protestant community in Ireland..those with a sense of Britishness as well as Irishness? Maybe I am missing something...

Alan2,
"Surely such a flag could be used as an All-Ireland flag for the likes of the Irish Rugby team?"

The red saltire on a white background already is the flag of the Irish rugby team and the IRFU, not the tricolour.

Rebecca,
the red saltire on a white background is a British creation and as such is as much a "compromise" between the tricolour and union flag as the harp on the green background is.

It is fine to use it to represent things that are important to large sections of the population like the IRFU, RNLI etc. but to represent the people of Ireland as whole, wholly inappropriate.

It would be the equivalent of using the confederate flag to represent all Americans, great for some offensive for many.

"Isn`t that what the Orange in the Tricolour is for? To represent the Orange / Protestant community in Ireland..those with a sense of Britishness as well as Irishness? Maybe I am missing something...

That's the official line, yes. But that's like saying the Union Flag includes the Cross of St Patrick - due to the way the flag has been (ab)used over the years, it's no longer fair to say that either could be deemed inclusive.

"The red saltire on a white background already is the flag of the Irish rugby team and the IRFU, not the tricolour."

As far as I know, the IRFU actually use the 4 provinces flag with an IRFU badge in the middle, reflecting the organisation of rugby by province on the island.

"It would be the equivalent of using the confederate flag to represent all Americans, great for some offensive for many."

The same could be said of the tricolour.

"This action was like bringing a KKK flag to a Martin Luther king rally and it was so very disappointing"

The Union flag is like the flag of the Ku Klux Klan?? What are you talking about? Thats the most offensive thing I have ever heard on slugger, I really think you ought to apologise for that.

Rebecca that guy didn't post on slugger. That was a quote from a gmcgloughlin whom I have emailled in the interim to explain his own ignorance to him :)

The unionists commenting on this thread would have more credibility were they to outline what their community is doing to show respect for the tricolour as the national flag of the nationalist community here.

Do they agree with the Sinn Fein proposal that public buildings in the north should fly BOTH flags (Union Jack and Tricolour) or neither? Or do they repeat the unionist mantra that only the British flag is welcome?

If the latter, then they can not have any complaints when people feel more than justified in celebrating the patron saint's day in the same manner as other irish people throughout the world.

I believe there can be room in the future for addressing the flags issue, but only when unionists are willing to accept the legitimacy of the emblems of the nationalist tradition here.

Calvert can bemoan the absence of union jacks at parades in Seattle but does nothing to address the failure of his own Council to embrace nationalist emblems.

Why should the unionist community show respect for the flag of the Shankill bombers and the McCartney murderers ?

Why should we flag the tricolour in Northern Ireland? Its the UK!!

Although while we're on this topic, why is the union flag never flown in dublin or anywhere in Ireland? On buildings where they have the french flag, german flag, american flag etc etc, there is never a union flag. What about the British people in the republic?

The entire irony about St Patricks day is that it is supposed to be about christianity, not about drinking yourself into a heap on the floor in the name of Ireland. Maybe if we concentrated on celebrating the memory of Patrick (if he ever existed, for which there is no evidence!) instead of stage-irishness then it whole thing would be much more inclusive in Northern Ireland.

There is evidence the guy (St P) existed, just not that any of the stories about him are true (there were never any snakes on this island etc).

Davros something tells me your scope's a bit limited, the same could be asked of why should the nationalist community respect the flag of the shankill butchers or the killers of x y and z (r paddy, seamus and mick if you prefer). Get over it.

Re the buildings/flags, I wouldn't want to see the tricolour flown on public buildings in NI. Maybe that's unfair but I just wouldn't be comfortable with it. The councils and other institutions are legally a part of the UK local government system. If/when that changes we'll talk about the tricolour.

Do any other countries fly two flags? The fact of the matter is that the official flag of NI is the Union Jack. That is a fact. Another fact is that Lisburn has a large Unionist majority. Now that does not mean that the Nationalist community should be belittled or ignored but the fact of the matter remains that it is the flag of the country.
A better option in my opinion would be a Northern Ireland flag supported by all communities in NI.

And to be honest it is not really comaprable to a Saint Patrick`s Day parade which is portrayed as a festival for the whole community.

Irishman - pure whataboutery - we're bad because you're bad and that means we're not bad at all ad nauseum through a number years of history - the *number* of which we can't even agree on.

Everyone feels happy after a good oul argument and there's lots of blame, but no progress.

So can you explain to me in words of two syllables or less why we should feel included in a celebration where 'your' flag is acceptable but 'ours' aint, without resorting to 'we do it because you do it' arguments.

'Why should the unionist community show respect for the flag of the Shankill bombers and the McCartney murderers ?'

That's simple, Davros. It is not the flag of the Shankill bombers or the McCartney murderers.

If you want to bring it to that level, I think you'll find that tens of millions of more people were killed by those carrying the Union flag than the Irish Tricolour.

'Re the buildings/flags, I wouldn't want to see the tricolour flown on public buildings in NI. Maybe that's unfair but I just wouldn't be comfortable with it. The councils and other institutions are legally a part of the UK local government system. If/when that changes we'll talk about the tricolour.'

I'd agree with Beano on this point, although I suspect I differ in the opinion about whether such constitutional change needs to be brought about.

smcgiff

thats true that more people have been killed by those carrying the union flag but that is undoubtedly because the Union flag has been around alot longer than the Irish tricolour and the fact the the UK has fought in two world wars while the Irish prefer to stay neutral.

However the tricolour has been hijacked by a major terrorist organisation so you could argue that the tricolour has flown over alot more illegitimate killings than the union flag has.

Seamus - when the decent people claim it back from the dirt-bags and plastics then the unionist community will change it's attitude.

If you want to bring it to that level

What "level" Seamus ? A specific question was asked.I didn't bring the issue of the Tricolour up as a gratuitous insult. To me the first image I think of with the tricolour is of a terrorist's coffin being accompanied by Gerry Adams. Just as it's perfectly legitimate for people of a nationalist or republican persuasion here to feel that the Union Flag can never be their flag, it's perfectly reasonable to say that for an awful lot of the unionist community the tricolour will never be their flag. Hoepefully generations to come will feel differently WHEN the tricolour is reclaimed from the Johnny-Adair-equivalents who disgrace the Union flag.

The responses to my post were nothing if not typical.

Alan seems to have a problem with showing respect for minorities, as in Lisburn. Would you be content if nationalists in Newry/ Mourne, Cookstown, Magherafelt etc. displayed the same disregard towards unionists as a minoirty grouping? I think not.

Davros' gut sectarianism came through in his reply, which has been amply dealt with by other posters.

The fact remains that this is a divided society; dismissing the tricolour because the north remains under British sovereignty at present is simply a cop-out by unionists.

Sooner or later the unionist community is going to have to deal with its inability to respect the legitimacy of the nationalist tradition.

Rebecca,

To say the Irish were not involved in both world wars is simply not true. The Irish Republic, which was not in existence for WW1, was not officially involved in WW2.

Have you forgotten that the Union flag has been hijacked by Loyalist terrorists?

As for legitimate, well I can't let you get away with that either. The Dresden bombing was 'legitimate'.

I'll give you a definition of legitimate - The actions of the victors.

Actually, loyalists tend to use the Ulster Flag rather than the Union flag.

Secondly, of course there were irish men fighting in both WWs, but they had to fight under the union flag because their own country refused to fight.

As for the Dresden bombing, I have three words for you war time situation.

"Sooner or later the unionist community is going to have to deal with its inability to respect the legitimacy of the nationalist tradition.'

leave nationalists out of it, unionists do not have a problem with nationalists, its physical force republicans we do have a problem with. Its also physical force republicans that are making the goal of a united ireland less and less likely to ever happen by the barbaric methods they are employing.

I resent the accusation of gut sectarianism.
You asked a question and got an honest answer.
Too bad it doesn't sit comfortably with your own bigotry.

Davros,

I've never been to NI (Scotland, England, Wales - Yes), but the difference between me and you is that I can respect the national flag of those living in the UK. I have and will continue to show the Union Flag due respect. I have respect for the people of the UK and will respect their flag. I will not let the Johnny Adairs of this world affect me.

I think the British people in this, the 21st, century have nothing but the best interests of the people in NI at heart.

That you cannot reciprocate the respect for the Republic's flag says, perhaps, more about your own personal experiences in life. That is something which I regret.

Rebecca,
as for Dresden, I have five words for you, hundred thousand dead mostly refugees.

And as hard as you may find it to believe, the union flag was and is the flag of the oppressor for many nations in this world, stained with the blood of innocents.

Would you be content if nationalists in Newry/ Mourne, Cookstown, Magherafelt etc. displayed the same disregard towards unionists as a minoirty grouping?

At least one nationalist council has been slated for apparent discrimination .... And as pointed out PB refused a senior post on a Lisburn Council committee.

"Do any other countries fly two flags?"

Scotland and Wales, I think.

Davros, your statement re. "respecting the flags of the shankill bombers" does show at worst bigotry and at best double standards if you would like nationalists to respect the Union Flag, which has also been waved by murderers. And Rebecca, Loyalists fly both flags, as well as others (St Andrew's Saltire for example).

Who, the suggestion of a dual flag policy has really touched a nerve with unionist posters. Fantastic stuff! I suppose it is a kind of whataboutery, but still, it is interesting. I mean, the point of this thread is about Union Jacks being accepted at St Patrick’s Day – which has traditionally been the national holiday for those of us who are of Ireland and for Ireland. So it’s legitimate to draw out the allergic reaction Union Jack-wavers have to the Irish flag.
(Sorry to say this Davros, but that comment about the Irish flag being the flag of the Shankill bombers was disgraceful.)
Rebecca
``Why should we flag the tricolour in Northern Ireland? It’s the UK!!’’
I suppose a lot depends on nomenclature. I would see the question more as: why shouldn’t the flag of Ireland be flown in Ireland? We have a divided community here, with two large blocs who give their allegiance to different political constructs – why should one of those constructs be recognised and the other not? You say: ``It’s the UK’’ – to which my response is: not in any meaningful sense it’s not. Sorry, but you know it.
``why is the union flag never flown in dublin or anywhere in Ireland? On buildings where they have the french flag, german flag, american flag etc etc, there is never a union flag.’’
This is a question of practice, not policy. The point is that in the north we are talking about official policies
``What about the British people in the republic?’’

(Ah, you used the dreaded what about’ formulation!) But seriously: what about them? They are free to fly any flag they want. We’re not comparing like with like here. You’re comparing a mature, successful democracy, buttressed by overwhelming popular will, against a rivened, failing colony. The Republic has a flag that has overwhelming popular endorsement. NI has no such flag. Jesus, NI doesn’t even have an agreed name – so you see why norms elsewhere can’t be taken as workable models here.

Are you suggesting that in the Republic, the state should intervene and insist on the flying of Union Jacks? If so, I would simply make the point that there is no significant popular support for such a course. In the north there is very substantial popular support for the elevation of the Irish flag as the dual flag. (Though of course, even more substantial popular opposition from those who already have their flag.)

Most people in Ireland instinctively hate the Union Jack – it’s seen as the butcher’s apron. I’m a proud Irishman and I share that revulsion at the flag. I recognise though that, though I and my community undoubtedly have genuine grievances about things carried out by carriers of that flag, my revulsion ultimately begins at home. Similarly, unionism’s hatred of the Irish flag says more about unionism than about the Irish flag.

Until we have a single, agreed flag for all of Ireland, NI should dual flags.

"Alan seems to have a problem with showing respect for minorities, as in Lisburn."

"Sooner or later the unionist community is going to have to deal with its inability to respect the legitimacy of the nationalist tradition."

No I don`t. I would hope I would be the first to stand up to any discrimination. I certainly came close to getting a good kicking one night when so called "loyalists" decided to have a go on a wee Brazillian / Portugese lad half the size of the guy that decided to punch him. I am not sure what the solution is but it is not to be "ashamed to show the flag of the country". The Republic of Ireland flag is inappropriate as we are not part of the Republic of Ireland...therefore either an All-Ireland or a Northern Ireland flag agreed by all seems the logical conclusion.

Seamus - there's a lot of people like me. 35 years of people like Gerry and Martin has not helped me appreciate their flag. I have no problems with it in the 26 Counties.

Does any other country fly two flags? Wales and Scotland I think.

Davros, if you would like nationalists to respect the Union Flag (although I wonder if you prefer them to disrespect it as it gives you more mud to sling) you must concede that the Irish tricolour is no more or less the flag of murderers than the Union Flag. Both have been waved by murderers to try and justify their actions. I am uncomfortable with the tricolour (as used in NI), but I cannot help but admit that simple fact.

Rebecca, "Actually, loyalists tend to use the Ulster Flag rather than the Union flag." I think you'll find they fly both and then some (St Andrew's saltire?).

British people in the republic free to fly any flag? I don't think so, in theory perhaps, in practise, absolutely not.

"This is a question of practice, not policy. The point is that in the north we are talking about official policies"

no, I think its policy that union flags are never flown under any circumstances in the south, and that is relevant because why should Northern Ireland fly the tricolour outside gov, buildings when in Ireland they won't even fly the union flag beside the flags of europe outside hotels?

As for smgliff

WW2 was a legitimate war, fought and understood to be a legitimate war by all sides.

sorry for repeating myself, site seems to be playing up on me at my end :(

Davros

``At least one nationalist council has been slated for apparent discrimination .... And as pointed out PB refused a senior post on a Lisburn Council committee.''

That's a weasel post. Which council? Who did the slating? What is ``apparent discrimination''? Is this the thing about Isaac Hanna in Newry and Mourne again? If so, I'm very disappointed - we discussed this months ago and you conceded the point then.

Billy - it was an honest answer to an important question. If you want to blame anybody blame the thugs and psychos who have dishonoured your flag.

Beano - My comments were about the tricolour. I understand why nationalists and republicans have problems with the Union flag. I ask the same consideration for my community in respect of the tricolour. It is FACTUAL that the tricolour was draped over terrorist's coffins. No point in asking why people in the unionist community are averse to the flag and then getting precious when an honest answer is given. Or are you really saying that the tricolour was placed on those coffins or flies as Gerry says "They haven't gone away, you know" as a gesture of reconciliation ?

"Scotland and Wales, I think"

So your saying we should fly the NI flag AND the Union Jack ;)

No, seriously I have NO problem with the Irish Tricolour and indeed the fact that a Nationalist parade through kilkeel which is 90% Protestant only drew a few complaints but absolutely NO protests sort of indicates Unionist opinion on this. It was a peaceful parade...and nothing to do with us...so they stayed at home and let people get on with it.

I have no problems with the Irish tricolour being flown in the Republic of Ireland or on the Irish embassy or anywhere else but is is NOT the flag of NI and I am not sure a dual flag policy actually solves anything. It would be better to agree a common flag of some sort for common useage.

That's a weasel post.

it was a FACTUAL post Billy.

( Is it my computer or has the formatting on this thread gone crazy ? )

Rebecca

``no, I think its policy that union flags are never flown under any circumstances in the south''.

Regardless of what you ``think', it's not policy. This is simply a fact. What you ``think'' is no argument.

``why should Northern Ireland fly the tricolour outside gov, buildings when in Ireland they won't even fly the union flag beside the flags of europe outside hotels?''

I have made this point already: in the south, there is nothing preventing the flying of Union Jacks. That you rarely see them is simply a matter of popularlity - or lack thereof. There is an interesting debate to be had about why most Irish people are so negative about the Union Jack, but that's a different debate.

In the north however, there is widespread popular support for the elevation of the Irish flag. Official policies make this impossible. This is the essential mismatch underlying your analogy.

Davros all I'm saying is that if the tricolour is the flag of murderers, so is the Union Flag. I prefer the view that both are just the flags of a nation, and have been misappropriated by thugs. I'm sure you wouldn't have to look through too much news footage of loyalist funerals to find coffins of murderers draped in the Union Flag. What's good for the goose and all that...

Alan: "So your saying we should fly the NI flag AND the Union Jack ;)" Yes ;)

there is also widespread support for not flying the tricolour billy

Rebecca
Sorry but saying that union flags are not under any circumstance flown in ROI is bullshit,there were Union Jacks in the St Patricks Day Parade in dublin,the only flags which had more representation were the United States and the tricolour,Also you will find that hotels and businesses throughout the country fly the union flag.Limerick being a particular good example.

Davros.

A factual post? There wasn't a single fact in it. Which council? What does ``slated'' mean? Who did the ``slating''? What was the issue? Please - I'm interested in hearing the facts.

Rebecca

``there is also widespread support for not flying the tricolour billy''

Agreed. The fault line is between a community that has official recognition for its flag insisting that the other community should be denied same.

Davros, Rebecca, I'm arguing on the same "side" here but I wish you'd think before posting.

Rebecca, "there is also widespread support for not flying the tricolour" This is true but there is also popular widespread support for not flying the Union Flag!

'WW2 was a legitimate war, fought and understood to be a legitimate war by all sides.'

Rebeca,

You've gone from the specifics to the ultimate generality. I'm not even sure what you mean by 'legitimate war by all sides.'

If the fire bombing and killing of tens of thousands of men, women, children in a non-industrial, non-strategic, wooden city can somehow be justified then the killing of hundreds of men, women and children by both sides in the name of their particular constitutional battle in NI is justified.

You can't name one (or even all combined) act of atrocity perpetrated in NI in the name of republicanism or loyalism that isn't grossly overshadowed by the murder of those in Dresden.

Beano - I understand what you are saying. You are right. The Union Flag IS the flag abused by loyalist murderers. That in itself has nothing to do with the unionist community attitude to the tricolour. As long as the tricolour is abused in the North, as long as it is linked to partisan politics, as long as it is displayed with the intent to provoke or claim territory - and I'm not saying here that it is thus used every time it is displayed in N.I. - then it will struggle to earn respect in the unionist community. Equivalent abuses of the Union flag do not cancel out abuses of the tricolour.

So you don't think that nationalists should show any repsect to the Union Flag then?

There is no more reason to fly the Union flag in the republic than there is to fly the French, German, Portuguese or Estonian flags.

Outside hotels, you often see three flags - Tricolour, EU and US.

The EU flag represents all 25 nations of the European Union, which last time I looked, included the UK. Thus, no need for a Union Flag any more than any other EU country's flag.

Rebecca

I have to agree with Cavanman, there is no problem flying the Union Flag in the Republic. I remember as a child it flying along with the other EEC (as it was then) flags in my school.
Certainly there are those that will call it the Butchers apron but for most people in the Republic Football rivalry is as far as Anti-Britishness goes.

Davros.

``As long as the tricolour is abused in the North, as long as it is linked to partisan politics, as long as it is displayed with the intent to provoke or claim territory then it will struggle to earn respect in the unionist community.''

But would you accept that many of these ``links'' and many of the motivations you ascribe to them exist mainly in the minds of unionists?

I don't think there is anything anyone can do externally to change the internal workings of another person's mind. Ultimately there is a very limited amount nationalists can do to make unionists less hostile to the Irish flag or the GAA or the Irish state or whatever the latest thing is that unionists feel excluded from. Ultimately all nationalists can do is try to avoid being provocative (even, or especially in unintentional ways), create a bit of space, and trust that our unionist brothers and sisters have enough maturity to make peace with their fellow Irish in their own hearts.

Ultimately unionists must make peace with the Irish flag in their own hearts. All nationalists can do is stop creating excuses for unionists to refuse to do so.

So you don't think that nationalists should show any repsect to the Union Flag then?

I would not and could not criticise them for not showing respect to the Union flag. Some are quick to point out the problems they have with it - I would ask those people to realise that many in the unionist community have just as valid reasons to be leery of the tricolour.

``unionists must make peace with the Irish flag in their own hearts''

- I put that badly. When I say `must', I mean that if unionists are ever to accept the Irish flag then this is a step that ``must'' be taken. I accept of course that there is no `must' about unionists ever accepting the Irish flag. We can but hope.

"there were Union Jacks in the St Patricks Day Parade in dublin,"

that`s good....so why the fuss in Seattle?....
No doubt the plastic paddies consider it the flag of the English occupiers without even realising it is the flag used by the the majority population in the North. Tolerance and respect for both flags is what is called for...

Davros,
I suppose the difference is that we in the Irish Republic haven't enshrined the annual burning of the union flag and other things British as part of our culture while in Northern Ireland the Irish flag, and Catholic and GAA symbols are ritually burned by the unionist population as part of their celebrations of their culture.

I find this celebration repugnant but the silence of the unionist politicians even more so.

It might go on at drunken 11th night bonfires but..."enshrined in annual ritual"...I hardly think so....the only thing I have ever seen burned is an effigy of Lundy along the same lines as Guy Fawkes.
The burning of anything else are in the realms of paramilitaries and extremists and are wrongly in my opinion but obviously a sign of defiance in response to a preceived threat.....hence why the opposite does not happen in the Republic as their is no perceived threat.

Does anyone know if the DUP's Jim Wells has still got that massive British Union Flag that he carried everywhere throughout the 1980's along with George Seawright and a few other hangers on he was a serial protester?

The size of the flag and the flagpole used made me wonder was he compensating for any physical under development.

But would you accept that many of these ``links'' and many of the motivations you ascribe to them exist mainly in the minds of unionists?

No, I wouldn't accept that Billy. However, even if I did accept it, IMO it's up to decent nationalists and republicans , the majority I hasten to add, to address the perceptions of the unionist community. Reclaim your flag from the riff-raff and those who use it to wave two fingers at the unionist community. The same onus is on the unionist community in respect of abuses of the Union flag.

Yesterday I drove through Kilrea a couple of times. Crowds of drunks, trouble though thankfully no stabbings or attacks on policemen. Last year I commented favourably on SF's efforts to defuse problems brewing in respect of Tricolours flying.
They all came down.

There was trouble over a Union flag at the war memorial around the time of Remembrance sunday.
After that a tricolour appeared opposite the Catholic Primary school flying from a telegraph pole - looks pathetic as it has got all tangled.
That was the only obvious one.
For St Patrick's day a huge Tricolour has been erected on top of a mobile phone mast on a hill overlooking the town. That does nobody any favours. A sign of reconciliation ? I don't think so. Territorial marking? Two fingers to local unionists ? You decide.

Rebecca,
"WW2 was a legitimate war, fought and understood to be a legitimate war by all sides."

Fighting a legitimate war doesn't not mean everything done in WWII was automatically legitimised. That is a horrendous view for you to take. Talk about giving soldiers carte blanche.

Sending up to 100,000 mostly refugees to their deaths, strafing defenceless women and children with gunfire and bombing them relentlessly hour after hour, day after day as they huddle defencelessly in open areas in around a city without any defence cannot be legitimised.

You should try get the accounts of some survivors before you legitimise such an act, carried out at the end of the war, purely for the sake of policing the peace in the future.

Davros,

There are two chances of getting the mob to respect either the Union Flag or the Irish Tricolour any time soon (ever).

There are even less chances for mutual respect if the middle ground allow the mob to dictate the attitudes of all.

Seamus - we aren't talking about the mob. Nothing will change their minds. We are talking about the normal decent members of the unionist and nationalist communities.

I'm not offended that for many in the nationalist community there is a reflex reaction of distaste on meeting the Union flag or the police. It's understandable considering the past here. I won't criticise them for that - I would ask the same consideration for members of my community who have a similar knee-jerk response when we see the tricolour.

George - you make fair points in respect of loyalists but I think you are using too broad a brush.

a bit of bother last night it seems
although partly to do with students in the holyland area of belfast...........
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4360621.stm

George

ah yeah, we should have just stood back while Hitler took over Europe, gassed mentally handicapped people, slavs, jews, political prisoners, black ppl....

don't be so ridiculous!

Davros,
do you really think I'm using too broad a brush?

In your estimation, what percentage of the thousands of 11th Night Bonfires in Northern Ireland have the Irish flag and other Irish symbols on them.

Maybe it's just the coverage in my country, but every picture of a bonfire I've seen just before it was lit had an Irish flag on the top.

What percentage do you think it is?

I suppose the difference is that we in the Irish Republic haven't enshrined the annual burning of the union flag and other things British as part of our culture

Strange then, that your brothers in Northern Ireland have.

'ah yeah, we should have just stood back while Hitler took over Europe, gassed mentally handicapped people, slavs, jews, political prisoners, black ppl....

don't be so ridiculous!'

Have you ever heard the one about two wrongs not making a right?

Where has George said it was right to kill handicapped people etc?

In your estimation, what percentage of the thousands of 11th Night Bonfires in Northern Ireland

Thousands ? Isn't than a bit of an exaggeration ? and it's that sort of exaggeration that causes problems. Where do the 'thousands' of Loyalists buy the 'thousands' of tricolours to put on the 'thousands' of bonfires ? Do they head down the Falls Road in their Rangers outfits and call in at the SF shop ?

There are several hundred bonfires. I have never attended an 11th night bonfire, so I cannot personally tell you what % involve burning a tricolour. Hopefully some other contributors will weigh in with their experiences.

Alan.

``the only thing I have ever seen burned is an effigy of Lundy along the same lines as Guy Fawkes.''

Jesus man, I've seen a few unionist bonfires in my time (before they were lit, usually in the run-up to the 11th night) and they ALWAYS have Irish flags and Irish emblems attached. An effigy of the pope used to be a favourite around the Alexander estate in Armagh if I remember rightly. Sometimes even GAA jerseys FFS, especially if the Harps or the Ogs had a good run in the championship that year. I can't believe you when you say you've only ever seen effigies of Lundy being burned. (Though that's pretty sick and medieval too, when you think about it.) Jesus, I'm a fenian and I've seen loads of fenian iconography being burned.

Rebecca

``ah yeah, we should have just stood back while Hitler took over Europe, gassed mentally handicapped people, slavs, jews, political prisoners, black ppl....''

The bombing of Dresden happened on 13 February 1945, just over two months before Hitler killed himself. The war was over anyway. The scale of Germany's annihilation was all that was at stake. Dresden was one of the 20th century's most complete war crimes, whatever way you look at it.

And as for this craic about the holocaust, let's be clear on this: the second world war was not about ending the holocaust. That was just a benign side-effect that only actually emerged after the fighting was over anyway. WWII was a geopolitical struggle. The lesser of the evils prevailed. Good. But the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo, and the obliteration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki proved that though the Nazis might have fitted the Evil profile, the opposing side was in no way Good.

Beano

``Strange then, that your brothers in Northern Ireland have.''

Please elaborate. I don't doubt for a second that some nationalists somewhere have burned Union Jacks, but I am not aware of any kind of ritual attached to it anywhere in northern nationalism. Nationalists don't have Brit-burning ceremonies. It simply doesn't happen, and no amount of weaselish, opaque, sneering innuendoes from sympathisers of effigy-incineration will change that.

One more point George - what % of the unionist community attends these bonfires ? What % of the non-loyalist unionist community attends these bonfires ? If you cannot answer then I'll take that as supporting my comment about using a broad brush, extrapolating from the dregs to smear an entire community in the way that some extrapolate from the dregs of the nationalist and republican community to smear all nationalists and republicans.

Most people here on both sides of TDF are fine , decent human beings. Even the ones who vote SF and DUP ;)

Rebecca,
I believe you are being ridiculous by saying that every action carried out by the Allies in World War II was justified.

You really should try and talk to some of the survivors of Dresden. Maybe you would think differently if you heard the countless stories of how they saw their loved ones gunned down, blown to smithereens, burnt to a cinder etc.

You'll pardon me if I don't continue this post as I actually feel nauseous at what you are trying to defend.

Davros.

``Most people here on both sides of TDF are fine , decent human beings. Even the ones who vote SF and DUP ;)''

TDF?

And I don't agree with this line about most people being `decent human beings'. This may be true in most aspects of their lives, but our problem here is the scale of middle class sectarianism. In every western society since the industrial revolution, the middle class has been the power broker, and NI is no exception. Sectarianism thrives in our middle class, and will only continue to thrive as long as we soothe our consciences with baloney about how most people here are `decent human beings' and it's just a rare few messing everything up.

Just did a quick google search on the bombing of Dresden: this was the first page that came up.

``In 1941 Charles Portal of the British Air Staff advocated that entire cities and towns should be bombed. Portal claimed that this would quickly bring about the collapse of civilian morale in Germany. Air Marshall Arthur Harris agreed and when he became head of RAF Bomber Command in February 1942, he introduced a policy of area bombing (known in Germany as terror bombing) where entire cities and towns were targeted.

One tactic used by the Royal Air Force and the United States Army Air Force was the creation of firestorms. This was achieved by dropping incendiary bombs, filled with highly combustible chemicals such as magnesium, phosphorus or petroleum jelly (napalm), in clusters over a specific target. After the area caught fire, the air above the bombed area, become extremely hot and rose rapidly. Cold air then rushed in at ground level from the outside and people were sucked into the fire.

In 1945, Arthur Harris decided to create a firestorm in the medieval city of Dresden. He considered it a good target as it had not been attacked during the war and was virtually undefended by anti-aircraft guns. The population of the city was now far greater than the normal 650,000 due to the large numbers of refugees fleeing from the advancing Red Army.''

(1) Internal Royal Air Force memo (January, 1945)

Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester, is also far the largest unbombed built-up the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westwards and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium. The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front, to prevent the use of the city in the way of further advance, and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.''

Interesting too that Churchill referred to the Dresden firestorm - which he authorised - as a ``mere act of terror and wanton destruction''.

Ah, World War II: that seminal battle of good versus evil.

Come on Rebecca. Sacred cows are lazy bastards that shit all over the place anyway.

Billy - TDF : That Damned Fence.

Have a good week-end all. I'm off .
God Bless.

Nationalists don't have Brit-burning ceremonies. It simply doesn't happen,"

Really? That's interesting. The Union Jack on top of August bonfires in Belfast and Newtownabbey must have been a figment of my imagination then. Pull your head out of the sand. It may not be as widespread as the burning of the tricolours (maybe it is, I don't know as I don't often frequent republican areas) but don't try and claim that "It simply doesn't happen".

'Nationalists don't have Brit-burning ceremonies. It simply doesn't happen,"

Reminds me of when one of the posters on here claimed that you never see anti prod graffiti in republican areas - 'it simply doesn't happen'.

Whenever I walk past the 'Kill All Huns' and 'Shankill Bomb - Ha Ha' graffiti on my way to work, I am always mindful of that comment.

"I can't believe you when you say you've only ever seen effigies of Lundy being burned."

Well that`s the truth. Sure I`vw seen the tricolours on top in Belfast..but then again I hav`nt attended many 11th night bonfires as they are almost exclusively attended by drunken yobs and paramilitaries.....which is why I think some form of community groups need to get more involved and move the thing to much earlier in the evening so you can invlove families in a festival atmosphere rather than the current drunken display with varying degrees of sinisterism involved.

Jaysus a little thread about a flag has balooned into sub discussions about the bombing of Dresden and a statistical analysis of the 11th night bonies.

Would yiz forever catch yourselves on.

You are all just proving the point that there is no respect for each others community or community symbols and while you all may *think* you are open minded - while you think the other lot are not, then you aren't either.

By throwing up reasons why the union flag is not welcome at a paddys day parade then you are throwing up reasons why unionists aren't welcome either.

Quite simple really. You can't think a community is bigotted without being one yourself.

George: I notice that as per you tricolour-burning is now a widespread “unionist” practice (reminds me of a letter on the PDN which pointed out that SF have taken to referring to “unionist death squads” rather than “loyalist”) Well I’m not a unionist, but from a middle-class prod background in NI, and neither I or anyone I know (and I mean that literally) has ever burnt a tricolour, GAA shirt etc. I have been to one bonfire on the 11th night in my life - and apart from making me smell of smoke, it wasn’t particularly exciting or interesting, certainly not the rabid sectarian feeding frenzy you’re determined to imagine - a lot of people in tracksuits drinking, and well, that’s it! I’m sure there are more virulent bonfires, and less, but the orgy of sectarian hatred and destruction that you describe is not engrained into the psyche or culture of any of my friends, unionist or otherwise, at home.

Incidentally, you are wrong about the IRFU; the tricolour is flown, as well as the four provinces flag, alongside the visior’s flag. And I noticed at the last match a yellow Ulster flag was flown, which is presumably a step towards a belated recognition that the tricolour’s presence alone is anachronistic and unrepresentative – something which I and many others have been banging on about for quite a while on the IRFU site..

Rebecca et al: Dresden was a horror that should not be justified, even in the context of an (overall) otherwise just war against an odious regime; as was the firebombing of Tokyo - I can recommend a fascinating film “The Fog of War”, about the career of Bob McNamara, among other things he echoed Curtis May’s assertion that if the Allies had lost the war those responsible would unquestionably have been tried as war criminals.

Billy et al: I have no hatred of the Irish flag, I’ve mellowed a lot in the last few years.. But there is no doubt that every time I see it, I can’t entirely disassociate it in my mind from all of the terrorist coffins it has draped, the IRA shows of force it has fluttered over etc etc. That may not be a problem with you, the way I don’t think of violent imperialism when I look at the Union flag. I don’t see any reason for a tricolour to be flown in an official capacity in NI.

'You can't think a community is bigotted without being one yourself.'

That sounds clever, Mnob, but it's false statement. It's a bit like, 'It takes one to know one.'

It doesn't take a baker to appreciate a nice cake! (Oh, that's dreadful - Apologies) ;-)

"Incidentally, you are wrong about the IRFU; the tricolour is flown, as well as the four provinces flag, alongside the visior’s flag. And I noticed at the last match a yellow Ulster flag was flown

A start, but I wouldn't be happy supporting Ireland until they fly Norn Irons flag with the tricolour, or something neutral like the St Patrick saltire.

It's a piece of coloured cloth. Get a grip.

I have a sentimental attactchment to the tricolour having grown up with it. It no blongs, as one poster suggested, to the Shankill bombers than the union jack belongs to the BNP. Those who use it for prod baiting, sectarian triumphalism or for terrorist shape throwing sessions show scant respect for it in my view. The point of the article is ignored. There is clearly a body of nationalist opinion which feels that the expression of a British cultural identity by those Irish people who self identify in this way is unacceptable in the context of a Paddy's day parade, indeed for at least one shinner pol it is a resigning matter. Why?

Lafcadio,
hate to disappoint you but I am not wrong about the IRFU. The IRFU flag is the red saltire on a white background.

The tricolour is flown at Lansdowne Rd. as it is Ireland's national flag but it is not the flag of the IRFU. Ask anyone on your IRFU site. In fact, just look at the flag on the site.

Are 11th Night bonfires a widespread practise in Northern Ireland? Yes

Are Irish flags, Catholic symbols, GAA jerseys etc. put on the overwhelming majority of 11th Night bonfires? Yes

Ergo, burning of Irish flags and other symbols is a widespread practise in Northern Ireland.

Or are you actually telling me that only a tiny percentage of 11th Night bonfires feature this practise?

Why do so many unionist try and fob off this vile practise as insignificant? It is part of a policy of dehumanising the Irish community, which makes it an awful lot easier for some to wantonly kill them.

Re. Cecil Calvert.

I think a point that has not yet been made is the manner in which he went about making his point. He grandstanded.

Setting aside the rights and wrongs, setting aside the whole issue: would anyone disagree if I said that Cecil Calvert was, frankly, being an arsehole about it?

Beano.

``I wouldn't be happy supporting Ireland until they fly Norn Irons flag with the tricolour, or something neutral like the St Patrick saltire.''

Nah mate. If you're honest, you'll never be happy supporting Ireland.

"In fact, just look at the flag on the site."

I don't see any flag at www.irishrugby.ie

"``I wouldn't be happy supporting Ireland until they fly Norn Irons flag with the tricolour, or something neutral like the St Patrick saltire.''

Nah mate. If you're honest, you'll never be happy supporting Ireland."

I think that is a bit harsh. I support the All-Ireland team but the Tri-colour meakes me uneasy. It shouldn`t because it is the flag of the Republic of Ireland and has every right to be there...but a St. Patrick`s Cross, Norn Iron flag or indeed the yellow Ulster flag alongside it is very welcome from a Unionist perspective.

1) Yes I would disagree that flying your own flag constitutes being an arsehole. He wasn't marching up the falls in an orange parade you know.

2) I would support the Ireland rugby team if they flew the Northern Ireland flag with the tricolour and abandoned the Soldiers' Song altogether.

2) I would support the Ireland rugby team if they flew the Northern Ireland flag with the tricolour and abandoned the Soldiers' Song altogether.

Last I checked the Ireland rugby team weren't short of supporters....

Perhaps we should fly the tricolour on the top of one of the stands,and fly the flags of each indvidual province,that should satisfy one half of support from the North.

George - I hate in turn to disappoint you, but you are wrong about the IRFU; I have never seen the flag you describe flown at an Ireland match, and it is not in evidence on the IRFU website (check it out www.irishrugby.ie), or on any IRFU document I have ever read - so unless you’re suggesting that the official flag is one that is never flown or displayed..

I didn't condemn the practice of burning Irish flags, GAA shirts etc on my post earlier, which was an oversight - I unreservedly condemn it. But the fact remains that you are over-playing the significance of 11th night "celebrations" in NI's culture. I can't think of a single person in my wider circle of friends or family who attends these bonfires as a matter of course; I personally go to the beach and kick a rugby ball about, around the twelth.

However "It is part of a policy of dehumanising the Irish community" more hyperbole on a thread thats already awash with it.. I don't agree with the practice of burning flags etc as I’ve said above, and from my knowledge of unionist friends, I can pretty unequivocally state that it is not something they a) do, or b) agree with. In fact, most conversations about bonfires are about the unsightly blots on the landscape they are in the weeks before etc etc. You can choose to belive me or disbelieve me, all I can speak of is my own experience.

As an aside, I am Irish, and therefore presumably a member of the Irish community in Northern Ireland - unless you are conflating Irishness with "nationalist" or "republican" - surely not? - and I don’t think these bonfires are a sign of any such “policy”.

Alan

``I think that is a bit harsh. I support the All-Ireland team but the Tri-colour meakes me uneasy. It shouldn`t because it is the flag of the Republic of Ireland and has every right to be there...but a St. Patrick`s Cross, Norn Iron flag or indeed the yellow Ulster flag alongside it is very welcome from a Unionist perspective.''

Fair enough mate. I accept that this is true for you - though I was addressing Beano, and I notice he hasn't challenged me.

Beano

``1) Yes I would disagree that flying your own flag constitutes being an arsehole.''

FFS. There are literally millions of circumstances in which flying your own flag can constitute being an arsehole. Millions.

``He wasn't marching up the falls in an orange parade you know.''

No: he was marching in a St Patrick's Day parade 6,000 miles from home and he succeeded in embarrassing himself and, I'm sure in the eyes of many Seattle-ites, his entire community. He was marching in a feckin St Patrick's Day parade in the States and decided to very conspicuously make some parochial point about NOT being Irish. There is a meaningful debate to be had on this issue but I reiterate: Calvert was just being an arsehole about it.

``2) I would support the Ireland rugby team if they flew the Northern Ireland flag with the tricolour and abandoned the Soldiers' Song altogether.''

Do you support the Irish rugby team at present? Do you currently withhold your support for the team over these issues?

(If so, let's just say it would explain your instinctive support for Calvert's embarrassing little stunt.)

Lafcadio,
The red saltire on a white background is the flag of the Irish rugby team and the IRFU, not the tricolour. Give them a call at +353 1 6473800 if you don't believe me. The IRFU will put you straight.

"I can't think of a single person in my wider circle of friends or family who attends these bonfires as a matter of course; I personally go to the beach and kick a rugby ball about, around the twelth."

That's what virtually everyone in Northern Ireland says. You'd wonder who does all the collecting for those bonfires considering I've never heard a unionist say they know anyone who is involved in this practise.

Why haven't any councils put forward motions condemning this if no unionists support ritual flag burning.

I note the honourable exception of one UUP politician who has spoken out against this incitement to hatred.

As for being Irish, I agree but the two major unionist parties don't so I am merely repeating the majority unionist view, to be unionist is to be British, to be nationalist is to be Irish. Talk to them, not me.

Postman came , so I haven't gone away yet :)

What happened to the nonsense about thousands of bonfires George ?

Have you any proof apart from the footage of a couple of bonfires you see on TV that "most" have Tricolours and other Irish emeblems on them ?

Where do the loyalists and unionists you claim indulge so widely in this practise get these flags George ? do Hundreds of people flock to the SF shops at the beginning of July ?

Come on George, you are coming across as a modern-day version of the Paisley of the 60's here .... This sort of stuff reminds me of his claims that every priest stored guns for the IRA and that every catholic was at heart either an IRA supporter or member ....

Billy - I don't agree that Mr Calvert is an arsehole simply because he tried to incorporate the Union flag into a St Pat's parade.

I know nothing about the guy, and not having seen how he went about this, it's difficult to know whether he was acting like an arse - not inconceivable, by any means, given that he's a NI politician..

Also the fact that he was carrying a Union flag doesn't necessarily mean that he was making a point about not being Irish - I am Irish, but the Union flag is mine too; it could have been an ill-fated attempt to try to display to the Seattle crowds that Irishness comes in more guises than one, or to lend some more inclusivity to proceedings - both of which would have been credit-worthy aims.

All of that said, of course, he could just have been trying to act like an arse!

The people who shouted and swore at him didn't really cover themselves in glory either - all in all, another grubby little incident.

As for the rugby, well I'm off to Cardiff tomorrow, having had a ticket land in my lap on Tuesday night!

Davros,

I have seen many bonfires in my day, in greater belfast, and I have never seen one without a tricolour or effigy of the pope on top. You can drive round Belfast a few days before the twelth, and it is quite surreal to see the tricolours flying on bonfires in the sandy row, and on the shankill.

Lafcadio

``I don't agree that Mr Calvert is an arsehole simply because he tried to incorporate the Union flag into a St Pat's parade.''

I didn't say he was an arsehole - I said he was being an arsehole about it. There isn't a man, woman or child on the planet who has never, at one time or another, just been a total dickhead about something. I had never heard of Cecil Calvert before this little stunt, so I know nothing about him. His Seattle brainstorm may have been uncharacteristic, it may not, I don't know. I'm just saying that on this occasion he was being an arsehole about the thing. Nothing more.

``Also the fact that he was carrying a Union flag doesn't necessarily mean that he was making a point about not being Irish''

I agree, though you're making rather an esoteric distinction that could only have been lost outside Ireland. In fact, it would be lost in most places within Ireland too. Calvert could have had little doubt what the effect of his provocative little stunt would be.

``All of that said, of course, he could just have been trying to act like an arse!''

That's my take on the incident.

``The people who shouted and swore at him didn't really cover themselves in glory either - all in all, another grubby little incident.''

Hear hear.

George - "That's what virtually everyone in Northern Ireland says. You'd wonder who does all the collecting for those bonfires considering I've never heard a unionist say they know anyone who is involved in this practise." It's certainly what I say, because it's the truth. The other way of looking at it is maybe this practice is simply less widespread and less ingrained in NI culture than you choose to think?

By the way, just to stop you barking up the wrong tree, like I said before, I am not a unionist.

As for the IRFU - I've looked on the website, I've attended matches for years, and have watched literally every other Ireland match since I was a kid, and I have never seen this flag - the flags flown by the IRFU at Lansdowne are, like I said, the tricolour and the four provinces flag, and apparently now the Ulster flag; at away matches the four provinces flag is flown.

As it happens, its largely irrelevant for me at kick-off, what flags are flying at the grounds.

Firstly P-C your day was 30 odd years ago , we are talking now , and secondly I don't accept your evidence as I'm neither convinced that you were from here nor that you are truthfull. I'm waiting on George to justify his claims of thousands of bonfires on the 11th night, or to admit he was exaggerating.
Secondly it has not been disputed that some tricolours are burnt in the loyalist heartlands. So your contribution is irrelevent even if it were to be truthful. We are discussing George's implied claims that the wider unionist community is involved in this unpleasant practice. That;s the same broad brush that Paisley used to smear the wider nationalist community.

The Flag of St Patrick, with a symbol of each province in each quarter, USED to be the flag of Rugby (before 1925 when they came under pressure to fly the Republic's flag at Dublin matches). Now it's the 4 provinces one.

I still don't think that flying the Union Flag in a St Paddy's parade, no matter where it is, is enough to constitute being an arsehole. He may have been an arsehole in addition to this, I didn't watch the parade so don't know. But plenty of people consider themselves Irish and British or Northern Irish and British. For this group of people the flag has just as much place in St Patrick's day celebrations as the southern Irish flag. I think it's a bit naive to suggest that anyone participating in a St Patrick's day parade was doing so to deny their irishness. He's illustrating that one can be both.

Billy:

"Fair enough mate. I accept that this is true for you - though I was addressing Beano, and I notice he hasn't challenged me."

You said I wouldn't support ireland at rugby - ever. You claim to know a lot about someone you know next to nothing about. You say I didn't challenge you? I specifically stated that I would support the ireland rugby team when they dropped the soldiers' song completely and flew the NI flag with the tricolour. I make no pretention that the IRFU needs my support, I'm simply stating my view.

At the minute I do not support the ireland rugby team, although I don't think it's an active "withholding". I just don't think the team can be said to represent my nationality when it only recognises one nation on this island.

Davros

``Have you any proof apart from the footage of a couple of bonfires you see on TV that "most" have Tricolours and other Irish emeblems on them?''

How could there be proof? The proof is ritually burned every 11th of July. All that leaves is: eyewitnesss (I've already given my testimony); and documentary evidence such as photographs and television footage. Open the paper or watch some TV reports in the run-up to the 12th this year - that evidence is pretty conclusive.

``Where do the loyalists and unionists you claim indulge so widely in this practise get these flags George? do Hundreds of people flock to the SF shops at the beginning of July?''

This is another uncharacteristically mendacious line of argument. Are you seriously arguing Davros that Irish flags are hard to come by in NI? And that Sinn Fein have a monopoly on sales? Catch yourself on: I could get you all the flammable Irish flags you want within the hour if you wanted them, and I wouldn't have to go next to near any Sinn Fein premises to get them. Or better yet, go to http://darachweb.com/flags/Ireland.html. They'll deliver a monster Irish flag to your door for ten dollars. (I'm sure the local community group could stretch to that.)

``Come on George, you are coming across as a modern-day version of the Paisley of the 60's here .... This sort of stuff reminds me of his claims that every priest stored guns for the IRA and that every catholic was at heart either an IRA supporter or member....''

Not so Davros. George is right to point out that there is much about the 11th night rituals - a cultural phenomenon massive enough to bring normality creaking to a halt across NI for a fortnight - that is disgusting and repugnant and disgraceful and primitive.

He's also right to point out that the silence from respectable unionism on these ghoulish, pagan nightmares is deafening. Nationalists are entitled to expect that unionist leaders and thoughtful unionists like yourself would condemn in the strongest terms such practices. Nationalists are entitled to expect decent unionists to feel the same revulsion they do.

The fact that unionism is so far from that point though, is a bigger problem than the awful rituals themselves.

(Ultimately, scumbags burning effigies is a minor problem - it only gains traction when it is endorsed by more powerful sections of society. That's where we're at.)

Hi Billy,

“He was marching in a feckin St Patrick's Day parade in the States and decided to very conspicuously make some parochial point about NOT being Irish.”

So, carrying a Union Flag means you’re not Irish? Interesting… Presumably, you can’t be Scottish and British either. Whatabout Irish and European? Or do you designate everyone’s national allegiance?

George/Lafcadio,

I believe you are both half right. The flag George is talking about is a St. Patrick’s Saltire with the symbol of each of the provinces in the white background plus the IRFU badge in the middle. However, this is only flown on away games. At Lansdowne Road the Tricolor flies as this is the flag of the Republic. It is IRFU policy that the flag of the country where the game is played that is flown. This used to include the Union Flag when Ireland played at Ravenhill. However, after a protest by players from the RoI at the Union Flag being flown at Ravenhill the IRFU decided all Ireland games would be played at Lansdowne.

On the flag burning issue, I believe Charles Haughey, as part of a group of UCD students, burned a Union Flag and attacked pubs frequented by Trinity students in response to the Trinity students celebrating VE day.

George,

Obviously misspoke, when he said thousands of bonfires, but there are certainly hundreds of them. Most of them burn the pope, a tricolour, or even a papal flag.

One thing is for certain, at every bonfire kick the pope songs are sang, and sectarian vitriol is hyighly visible.

On an other note Davros, your continuing attempts to wind me up, about being American, about not being from Ireland, are tedious and infantile, and they are not working, but I do take offence to you implying I am a liar.

What leads you to that implication, do you have anything to back up your implication, or are you talking out of your backside?

"As for being Irish, I agree but the two major unionist parties don't so I am merely repeating the majority unionist view, to be unionist is to be British, to be nationalist is to be Irish. Talk to them, not me."

Not so. Dr Paisley attended the St Patrick event organised by East Belfast Community Focus to discuss St Patrick in a British and Protestant context is quoted in today`s Newsletter (not online unfortunately) as saying:

"I`ve been fighting ll my days for Patrick and I believe in Patrick`s God, Patrick`s religion and Patrick`s gospel.....this was a veritable colossus of a man. A great man with a simple book in his hand, a heart of love for the Irish people and a desire to spread the gospel of the scriptures."
...he goes on to say that St Patrick symbolised a time of Irish "unity", not in the political sense but of people living together with respect for one another.
"He founded congregations right across this lovely island of ours..He never lost interest in trying to save the Irish people from their sins."

Congal,
I said the red saltire on a white background was the flag of the IRFU not the tricolour. This statement is correct so I don't accept I am half wrong in saying this. As I said to Lafcadio, give the IRFU a ring if you don't believe me.

My understanding is that you are right on when the tricolour is flown, namely only in the Irish Republic as it is the Irish national flag. The Irish national anthem is only sung in Dublin as well.

Paddy and Davros,
I shall drop my bonfire number from thousands to hundreds if both of you say hundreds is the more accurate figure. Either way, it is still a very widespread practise, which needs to be stamped out asap.

Could you imagine the uproar if the good people of the Dublin suburb of Tallaght took it upon themselves to get pissed out of their heads once a year and dress up as Prostestant ministers, happily making fun of the reformist religion while cheering on the burning of union flags and effigies of Queen Elizabeth.

That is what happens to the Irish culture and Catholic religion in hundreds of places in Northern year in year out and it has to stop. No excuses.

Alan2,
Paisley doesn't say anywhere in that quote that he is Irish, merely that he respects St. Patrick and that the Saint never lost interest in trying to save the Irish people from their sins.

You are ascribing views to Paisley there. If I say I think St. George was a top man that doesn't make me British you know.

Show me anything in DUP documentation that says you can be Irish and unionist.

CC

``So, carrying a Union Flag means you’re not Irish?''

Generally it means you're British. Of course the two things are not mutually exclusive. I made the point earlier that while it is legitimate to push the Union-Jack-as-Irish argument, it is an esoteric argument even in Ireland, and would be bound to create bewilderment outside Ireland.

The context in which he carried out his little stunt is the thing I am getting at. The Orange Order has St Patrick's Day parades behind a Union Jack every year: it doesn't mean they're being arseholes about it. But this parade was in Seattle, not Belfast. To the Seattle audience the Union Jack could only have been provocative - to most Americans it is, in an Irish context, the flag of Ireland's oppressor. (Which is also a legitimate viewpoint.)

Wouldn't you agree this whole episode was just embarrassing and unnecessary? Do you think Calvert succeeded in advancing his point one inch? Or was it just another example of `hell slap it up them every chance you get'?

People seem to be forgetting, or may not know, that bonfires and all that go with it are mainly a working class thing and take place in areas which are under the control of loyalist terrorists. In the Coleraine area all the bonfires take place on council estates, Harpur's Hill, Ballysally, Windy Hall etc...

Areas like Mountsandel or Ballycairn wont even have a flag out while five minutes down the road an area will be covered in red hands and UDA/UFF or UVF flags, so its completely understandable that some unionists can say that they've never been to a bonfire or seen a tricolour burned. They dont move in the same circles or are friends with people who do these things because there's the class difference and also the fact that terrorists run these areas.

Within these areas people see the republic and the IRA as being one and the same thing, they want to take away their identity, and they will hate you and your country for it. The fact that there is little or no attempts made to educate people on the realities of the political situation and that politicians only appear to stir up hate that will lead to votes for them, has lead to this situation continuing a lot longer than society should stand for.

How can we tackle a problem like this that is social, economic and political?

A lot of people are pushing St.Patricks flag saying it should be used. If someone wants to carry it fine but I don't know anyone in the South who identifies with the flag, it'll never be our flag for Paddys Day. It's a British flag not an Irish one, IMHO.

As well as being the Patron Saint of Ireland Paddys Day is also the national holiday of the Irish State and therefore the Tricolour is the most appropriate for those who wish to celebrate that brand of Irishness.

Here's a list of national holidays, what flags do you think these countries fly on those dates?

"He founded congregations right across this lovely island of OURS..He never lost interest in trying to save the Irish people from their sins."

OURS is the operative word. I have absolutely no doubt that Paisley considers himself to be Irish. Maybe an Ulsterman first but Irish none-the-less.

Macca I wasn`t pushing the St Patrick`s Cross on anyone, merely stating that watching the TV coverage I felt most comfortable with the parades in Armagh and Downpatrick where alot of St Patrick`s Cross flags were clearly visible.

Alan, my post wasn't directed at you but just to counter many of the earlier posts in the thread. I got about a third of the way through the thread when I got pissed off.

"watching the TV coverage I felt most comfortable with the parades in Armagh and Downpatrick where alot of St Patrick`s Cross flags were clearly visible."

I can certainly understand that. Many people north of the border are not confortable with the tricolour. Fair enough, easy to understand.

But many people ARE pushing it as the flag which should be used. That's fine if people want to celebrate the day simply as a saints day. But we're not, it's our (only) national holiday.

p.s. one "c" in maca (sorry)

Mark

In the "middle class" mixed area in which I lived my Unionist neighbours apologised at the end of every summer for flying Union flags and overtly ignoring us for 2 months. We then proceeded to live together as neighbours until the following year.

This sort of ambiguity is the bread and butter of this failed sectarian state, you can dress it up as you like the reality has a habit of climbing out of even the finest clothes.

Is the formatting here as screwed up for others as it is for me?

Howdy, Maca,

Not disagreeing with you, but if it's primarily an Irish National holiday then it makes it very hard to make the argument that unionists should stop complaining and get with the programme and celebrate St Patrick's day.

So, while St Patrick's day is a national holiday in the ROI the fact should not be lost that the communality between the 'factions' (too strong a word?) in NI is that it is a religious day.

Ironically, the religions that contain saints are in the majority in NI.

St. Patrick was neither Irish OR British ... he was a citizen of the Roman Empire. While his family did live in England, it could very well be (no one knows) that his father was of another 'race' and merely posted (army man) in England.

BUT ... at the end of the day, St. Patrick CHOSE to be Irish.

St. Patrick was neither Irish OR British ... he was a citizen of the Roman Empire. While his family did live in England, it could very well be (no one knows) that his father was of another 'race' and merely posted (army man) in England.

BUT ... at the end of the day, St. Patrick CHOSE to be Irish.

Maca,
Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't the holiday -- up until recently -- a fairly quiet, holy day in Ireland? And wasn't it actually the Americans who made it a big hullabaloo (mid 1800s ... the Irish immigrants weren't allowed to march in New York City on St. Paddy's Day -- they fought it -- hard -- and had a huge celebration despite it all, then it became an annual celebration of defiance).

hmmm. that sounds kinda familiar, huh?

ShayPaul

You should have just told your neighbours to sod off, if they dont have the courage of their convictions to stand by what they believe in, then you were probably better off not speaking to them. I see no reason why putting a flag out your window would mean you have to stop talking to people you get on grand with the rest of the year. Not meaning to doubt your integrity, but was it really that bad or are you exaggerating it? Also, if you dont mind me asking, where did/do you live that this happened? It's really frustrating that people could be so blatantly hypocritical.

At the same time though it is an undeniable fact that at least 99% bonfires and the burnings of flags, popes, papal flags, etc takes place in working class areas run by paramilitaries. I understand what some posters are saying about stopping the burning of such items and I agree with them, I just don't see how they could be stopped without a lot of fighting, rioting and bloodshed.

smcgiff
"if it's primarily an Irish National holiday then it makes it very hard to make the argument that unionists should stop complaining and get with the programme and celebrate St Patrick's day."

Seamus, well I wouldn't make such an argument. Unionists can celebrate it if they want to and in their own way, as a religious holiday or whatever they wish.
However, personally, I won't let anyone tell me how I should celebrate it.

One point, I don't think we all have to celebrate St.Pats in the same way. For us it's our national holiday but if they wanted to celebrate it differently in NI or anywhere they way can't they.


SlugFest
"Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't the holiday -- up until recently -- a fairly quiet, holy day in Ireland?"

Depends what you mean by "recently".
It's been celebrated much the same my entire life.
So no I don't think so.

Btw mid-1800's isn't recent.

On this issue, I and my father were among some 700,000 folk who crowded the streets of Dublin to watch the St Patrick's Day parade in Ireland's capital city. What flag was carried at the start of the parade to the music of an FCA band? Yes, as you would expect, an enormous Tricolour. What other flags? A Union Jack! Admittedly this was alongside the flags of all the other EU member states together with the EU flag - but it was there and I have a picture to prove it. I wonder if Cllr Butler will want whoever was responsible for this to resign too!

Rebecca
"On buildings where they have the french flag, german flag, american flag etc etc, there is never a union flag"

That's a lie.

"it is supposed to be about christianity, not about drinking yourself into a heap on the floor in the name of Ireland"

That's an insult.

And a logic of this thread is that Irish-Americans should come forward and tell us: are you Irish? Or are you American?

I mean, you can hardly be both.

More hypocrisy.

As for ShayPaul, I'll be blunt: I don't believe you.

"are you Irish? Or are you American?
I mean, you can hardly be both."

That's gas!! And how many people have said here that many times that they are both Irish AND British. Why can't someone be Irish AND American? Well Gav?

I am an Irish and a canadian citizen. I have also held a Brit passport, so I have trumped the lot of you, I could be said to be Irish and Canadian, and British! Yipppeeeeeeeee!!!

[ot]Just a note to site administrators. This page loads fine in MS Explorer, but there are formatting problems when using Netscape.[/ot]

The problem is glennlump's post at 01:08 AM

As people will associate St.Andrew's day with a celebration of Scotland,then so will the same global community associate St.Patrick's day with a celebration of Ireland. Despite there being a large section of the Scottish population being of Irish extraction with strong identities,they celebrate St.Andrew's day under Andrew's cross, a component of the Union flag. A tricolour amongst a St.Andrew's parade would not happen i suggest but would at best attract curiosity as its OUT of place and as Ireland has never invaded Scotland it would not evoke the resentment that the union flag evokes amongst many Irish. Try flying the union flag or stars abd stripes in an equivalent Iraq day parade. No matter that the unionist population were 'settled' on this island by the murdering hoardes whose descendants fly a union flag, they should respect St.Patrick's day and its global recognition of Irishness.

Are there Bangladeshi,Pakistani,Indian,Jamaican, IRISH flags flown on St. George's day in England? The Irish BUILT most of England,surely the tricolour should be flown on this day if the previous rhetoric is to be followed to its logical conclusion

CC

Some would say the Brits can't stand the fact that our national day of celebration is celebrated through out the world yet their's isn't.

Not me ;)

Some on this site who are closet Unionists would accuse me of 70's Noraid speak if I agreed with something like that. ;)

cg,
i agree entirely although i do support the various nationalisms within the Imperial construct that is Britain and the 'UK' as a means to the dissolution of its cultural constuct of Britishness.
Its amusing though having Unionists talk emotionally about having flags forced down their throat,as if Nationalists haven't been subjected to this without cessation. We try and tell them this on a message board engaging with them in a language that was forced down our throats at the threat of social exclusion. Surely a bit of slack is due....

I see what your saying CC

I don't mind people having their views/culture etc, they are as entitled as anyone.

I become less amenable when I am told I can't wave my national flag on St Patrick’s Day. Don't get me wrong I am not a plastic paddy and have issues with the way certain people in the 6 counties allow the flag to wither on a lamppost.

That said when some Unionists try and block every avenue of Irish identity (an identity they are entitled to as well) they begin to let the facade drop and they portray the psyche of siege mentality that has plagued some within their community since the foundation of this statelet.

Take a look at Ulster Scots, sad really.

The facade does drop,exactly. Maybe the people of Garvaghy rd shouldn't barricade the next Orange march but stand on the sidelines and wave the tricolour and sing 'Thank you King Billy for killing a few of my ancestors and embittering succesive generations of Irish Protestants against their neighbours.Thank you, i am the walrus you are the orangeman.'(inclusivity).
Ulster Scots? next it'll be funding for the Scouse language or Strabane talk for that matter!

That's one thing i'll have to disagree with ye on lads. I'm a strong believer in protecting minority "langualects", Ulster Scots included.

Mark

No exaggeration, I was living in that fine ecumenical place called Portadown.

I could relate a few similair tales from Orangefield Befast and Antrim Road Belfast with relation to my direct family, so it is not the isolated phenomena you would seem to think.

regards

"Are there Bangladeshi,Pakistani,Indian,Jamaican, IRISH flags flown on St. George's day in England?"

The problems with your argument is that there is no agreed flag for Ireland. There is a Republic of Ireland flag and a Northern Ireland flag and a St Patrick`s Cross and indeed the Harp on a green background or even the four provincial flag.

I lived in Scotland for a long time and can honestly say I never say any celebrations or parades on St Andrew`s day nor any high profile media coverage of the day. Perhaps it has changed like St George has become much more celebrated in recent years.

Also you will find alot of the minorities you talk about have their own day of celebrations...Chinese new year. It`s fair enough if that is the way you want to portray St Patrick`s then that is fine...it is peaceful and perfectly within peoples rights...but don`t say that it is everyone because it`s not. The parades in Armagh and Downpatrick were for everyone and I would draw some comparisons with the rural 12th July parades like Rossnowlagh....although I would say these parades have much more scope to be cross community. 12th July parades are always going to be for one side of the community but they CAN be made to have carnival atmosphere`s.

The problem with what happens on 17th March is that there is no agreement on what is actually being celebrated. If it is "Irishness" or the notion of the Irish nation then I have no interest in doing anything other than a bit of DIY and watching the rugby on a welcome but to me meaningless day of. On the other hand if the day is about Patrick and what he represented then count me in and point me to the parade. The saint is an island wide figure who can be shared between the British & Irish people on the island only if those who currently claim exclusive ownership want to share. Given the colours on display in Belfast and the reactions discussed above in Seattle I see no evidence of a willingness to accept that Patrick is not an exclusively Irish figure.

Alan2,

How are you? You stated that minority ethnicities have their days of celebration within England and elsewhere, so presumably have no scope for complaining that the English flag is the only viable way to represent St.George's day.Thismuch,i agree with. Would you not concede that there rarely seems to be a week that goes by in our wee province were there are not Union flags raised and paraded in some celebration or other? Hence,minorities on this Island have MANY days of celebration and shouldn't really complain when the Irish national flag is associated with St.Patrick's day.

To say that there is no agreed flag for Ireland is also a revelation of unionist myopic self-importance. Ask any of the same aforementioned minority groupings in England or across the globe to point out the flag of Ireland on a list and they will return the Tricolour without fail(if they're not colourblind,that is!).
They wouldn't recognise St.Patrick's cross,i personally would welcome this flag or indeed celtic cross banners for the parade. The same sample of people would associate the Union flag with Britain-UK and would probably not recognise the 'Northern Ireland' flag,what with its paraphernalia, they might hazard a guess at the Royal National Lifeguard Institution. The minority of Unionists on this island have no more scope to say that we are not agreeable to the national flag being flown on St.P day as the Chinese community have for not being agreeable to St.George's cross on St.G day.

To play St.Patrick's day up as a major religious festival and so only the Patrick cross should be flown is also absurd. The world is secularising, the Scots,Welsh and English don't celebrate their national days in a religious context but as days of national pride,rightly or wrongly, so why shouldn't St.P's day be celebrated in a national celebration context? We again have many days within our calender that celebrate our Christianity.

I personally feel, though it makes the chest heavy, that the feeling of resentment of a Tricolour being flown on a St.Patrick's day parade has a lot less to do with a sense of exclusiveness and a lot more akin to the mentality that stopped the Tricolour being flown at Windsor pk the soul-less and dark night that ROI played NI not so long ago.

Right,i'm off to watch the rugby, not sure what flag will be flown for Ireland as not every single person on this island has agreed on it yet!!!

The whole world sees you as Irish, you may as well cash those cheques in at the bank of Craic on St.Patrick's day, lighten up and enjoy it!!

Maca,

On the Irish-American thing. I DO think you can be Irish-American. Just as I believe you can be Irish and British. Sorry the point was lost!

CladyCowboy,

There are undoubtely many here who just don't think of themselves as Irish. There are many others (maybe more) who feel that they, too, are Irish but don't especially like tricolours, Celtic shirts, republican or anti-Protestant paraphernalia being shoved in their faces by individuals who plainly feel that Irish symbols are THEIR'S ALONE, and something to flaunt and abuse with.

By the way, when NI has played in Dublin, no NI flag was flown nor anthem for NI played either, so a consistent approach. Maybe you didn't realise that.

I am quite sure if you showed the public a flag of say Jersey or Guernsey they would not recognise it.
I would hazard a guess that most people outside the UK would not even recognise St Georges Cross as the English flag although the times are changing....
The fundamental flaw in your argument is that everyone in England agrees that St George`s Cross is the flag of England..similarly with Scotland and Wales. On the island of Ireland you have atleast 20% of the population that would insist the Tri-colour is the flag of the Republic of Ireland.
Your argument also goes both ways. If you are going to talk majorities and their rights then that also applies to partition and the flying of the Union flag. Like I said...if St Paddy`s is about being Irish fine but you need to define that...can you only be Irish by supporting a "United Ireland" or flying the flag of the Republic of Ireland? Or is it possible to be an Ulsterman, Irish and British (and indeed Ulster-Scots) all at the same time? Really nobody is complaining about the Tri-colour being using on St Paddy`s day but rather the abuse received when someone decided to use a different flag to reflect their heritage in a celebration of St Patrick. St Patrick is clearly a religious day as Church`s had services and masses before celebrations.

Well, good auld St.Patricks day! I'd like to see more union jack waving at the parades. Irish, Northern Irish, Ulster or British protestants (whatever you want to call them) should definately not be discouraged from coming out and celebrating their Roman Catholic heritage whether it's in Seattle or Belfast or wherever.

ShayPaul

Btw just to clarify, you're talking about flags I'm talking about bonfires and I never actually said that it was an isolated incident, I said that 99% of bonfires take place on council estates within working class areas. Within say, south belfast, the bonfires take place in areas like sandy row, donegall pass, annadale embankment to name but a few.

I've been to 30-40 11th night bonfires down the years and I've yet to go to one that matches what you described. They only happen in areas where terrorists can put on their "displays of strength" and get away with it. An example of this would be Antiville in Larne where they may have two or three bonfires on the go, a few hundreds yards away in Wyncairn there's none. The percentage of protestants to catholics for the two areas are very close, though in Wyncarin they dont have a bonfire, bunting or a similar number of flags out.

Can you name a wholly middle class area where a bonfire takes place with kick the pope bands playing away before the gunmen come out to squeeze off a few rounds?

Mark, I grew up in a quiet, middle class, pedominantlty protestant suburb of Belfast. When I was a kid there was always a picture of the pope on top of the local bonfire, which wasn't a paramilitary event, it was a family event, with much cheering as the pope dissapeared in a plume of smoke. Nowadays there's always a tricolour.

If middle class protestants are genuinely unaware of what sits at the top of a bonfire it because they are taking no interest in what is going on around them.

Pakman
"The problem with what happens on 17th March is that there is no agreement on what is actually being celebrated...."

But Pakman why are you waiting for someone to define it for you? You should be asking yourself what it means to you. If you want to celebrate it as a saints day or whatever then do so. As far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with us. I'm from a different state and on St.Pats day I am celebrating our only national day. If you want to join with us (why would you??) then fine but if you want to celebrate it in your own way that is fine too. Either way it is up to you how you spend the day.
(we don't have to celebrate it together you know)

Mark

"I've been to 30-40 11th night bonfires down the years and I've yet to go to one that matches what you described."

Explain please ?
What am I supposed to have described ?

You asked me to substantiate a previous post which I did. Reread my posts if you would please.

As Biffo points out if you are not aware of what really goes on, it is because you don't want to be aware.

The examples I gave are true and widespread, the silence on this issue from respectable, and respected by me, people who should know better is deafening ..... I think that it does more damage to community relations than the antics of the mindless thugs from all sides.

ShayPaul

"In the "middle class" mixed area in which I lived my Unionist neighbours apologised at the end of every summer for flying Union flags and overtly ignoring us for 2 months. We then proceeded to live together as neighbours until the following year."

Thats what you described and I've never seen it happen. Just because you put a flag out doesnt mean you stop talking to your neighbours.

If you disagree with the statement I made that bonfires are a predominantly working class event, and that the bitterness and hatred shown at them isn't wholly religious but has it's roots in other factors, just say that.

I dont defend the naked sectarianism that takes place there, I condemn it, and if we're going to try and stop or change that then there's other issues which have to be addressed, including the free reign that terrorists have to run these areas and any social and economic problems.

"The examples I gave are true and widespread"

What examples? You mentioned a town not a estate and even then that was one example, hardly widespread.

"As Biffo points out if you are not aware of what really goes on, it is because you don't want to be aware."

I am aware of what goes on that's why I think it should be dealt with.

Oops wasn't finished, apologies. :)

"the silence on this issue from respectable, and respected by me, people who should know better is deafening ..... I think that it does more damage to community relations than the antics of the mindless thugs from all sides."

I totally agree with you on this, we just need to get those "respectable" people (I assume you mean politicians) to show some leadership and speak up.

Anyways, I'm off down the pub, have a good weekend.

Alan2,

Look mate if 6 billion people on this planet identify the Tricolour as being the flag of Ireland,i don't really care that you and a million other unionists disagree with that. Wherever you decide to draw a border in this situation you will still be in a minority!

Some people may not recognise St.George's flag as its status is somewhat dubious, the union flag being the national flag of England.

If people can't celebrate St.Patrick'd day without waving a union jack then they have issues that we on this forum can't deal with.
I lived in London for years and would certainly not dream of flying a tricolour on St.George's day as a means to REFLECT MY HERITAGE-it wouldn't be appreciated.

I also have friends who were London Irish with united Ireland viewpoints who would one week wear an Ireland top and the next an England top. If they can do this and tip their cap to differing identities then so should you. To suggest you can't i'm afraid is but a confirmation of the inherent racism that pervades unionist dislike for any Irish symbol.

Do people of British heritage in Fiji fly the union jack during Fiji's national day?

Did this sectarian statelet recognise St.P's day as worthy for a holiday until recently?

Let's be honest, you HATE the Irish flag,its people,culture. You want to be both but part of you can't stand the thought of it..

'3 Swiss francs for a Union jack-ideal for Swiss day!'.Get a grip.

"I lived in London for years and would certainly not dream of flying a tricolour on St.George's day as a means to REFLECT MY HERITAGE-it wouldn't be appreciated."

But you're not from the land celebrating that particular saint's day. We are from the land of St Patrick, and do not identify with the Irish Republic or its flag. This is no reason to say we shouldn't celebrate his saint's day.

"No matter that the unionist population were 'settled' on this island by the murdering hoardes whose descendants fly a union flag"

Much as I hate to sink to your level, if you want to be that selective about your history, the Scotti were forced out of Ulster, apprx 1000 years previously, by the invading Gaels, so really they were reclaiming what was rightfully theirs.

Beano,

No-one on this site has said that unionists shouldn't celebrate the day. the argument is whether the Union flag is appropriate.
Supposing i was born in England to Irish parents,could i fly the Tricolour during St.George's day parade? And expect to live?

In your attempt to stoop to my level you've given us some comic book history. The Scotti were Gaels and so seem to have been 'forced out' by themselves.

Beano

"...the Scotti were forced out of Ulster, apprx 1000 years previously, by the invading Gaels, so really they were reclaiming what was rightfully theirs.."

As per the "Narrow-minded Loyalist Bigot's Fantasy History Of Ulster" by Ian Adamson et al (1981 - Jesus, Ulster, & God's Chosen People Books Ltd).

If you are interested in the subject I suggest you read proper history books and articles, stay away from the loyalist propaganda - it's poorly researched bullshit!

Limerick's band parade took place today. The parade was lead by three flags. The Irish Tri-colour, the Union flag in the middle and the USA flag. No sign of the EU flag.

I'm assuming these three flags were present because there were bands from the ROI, NI - Churchill and Londonderry (As stated on their drum), and the USA.

There was no swooning that I could see. The NI bands, especially the one from Londonderry (Friendship band), seemed to get a particularly good response.

smcgiff,

Some would say there is a sizeable population in the republic who are more comfortable with a union flag than a tricolour,the sindy's,not me though.

Perhaps the lack of swooning has got something to do with the lack of british military on the streets of limerick. Still it shows tolerance.
I look forward to the day i can fly the tricolour in an orange parade

'Some would say there is a sizeable population in the republic who are more comfortable with a union flag than a tricolour,the sindy's,not me though.'

Some people will say anything! ;-)

I don't see the British people being a problem any longer. Muhammad from Islington, and Mr Singh's family from Birmingham, or even John Bull Jnr from London's Eastend couldn't care less about who governs Northern Ireland.

The reason NI is British is because the majority in NI desire to be British. The vast majority of those living on this island accept this.

Now, what can't be tolerated is the abuse of majority, which clearly happened in the past. But this has largely been dealt with, and I might add, with the help of the British government.

The level of armed forces in NI is not desirable, but many would argue that a complete withdrawal of British troops in the current climate would have a destabilising influence. Especially as Sinn Fein have not signed up to policing.

Now, tell us about your furtive desire to become an OO member. Do, ya think the bowler hat would suit ya? ;-)

To those who decided to seize on my "the scotti were forced out by invaders" I wasn't trying to lay claim to ownership of the territory, I'm just trying to make the point that all the feckin "We were here first so go home" rubbish is pointless. If you look back far enough I'm sure everyone in NI today is the descendant of an invader.

Would be interested in any "proper history books and articles" you could point me in the direction of though. I'm afraid the little information I have comes largely from Wikipedia and the "loyalist propaganda" websites, which seem no more far-fetched than the republican propaganda ones. Unfortunately, factual information seems thin on the ground.

I have various websites and/or books which may interest you "beano"?

They are well-researched and go into detail about the violent and rebellious past of the Red Hand Province, known as Ulster, and the subsequent forming of Northern Ireland after the Government of Ireland Act. This was passed as law in January 1921, recognising our Britishness in Ulster, but at the same time recognising the rights of Southern Ireland, and their perceived "Irishness".

Six of the nine counties of Ulster became the state of NORTHERN IRELAND and the other 26 counties became known as the "Irish Free State", before it was declared as a Republic in 1937.

You said "the scotti were forced out by invaders".

You are referring to the settlers from Scotland and England who came over to settle in Ireland, but in particular the North-East of the island, in Ulster.
This became known as "THE RETURN OF THE CRUTHIN", who had links with the "PICTS".
This is because the Gaels forced their ancestors to flee Ulster, as they wished to take their land and livestock for their own.

The story of CuChulainn, the ancient Defender of Ulster, is based on the period that the Gaels forced them to flee across the Irish Sea.

The greedy Queen Maeve of Connaught invaded Ulster to steal one of their most prized animals, only for the renowned warrior CuChulainn to defy the Gaels and gallantly fight them almost single-handedly, keeping them at bay until he was eventually defeated and put on a stake and slaughtered!
You can see this defiant image painted in murals throughout loyalist areas of Ulster.

So you are absolutely correct in saying the ancestors of the Ulster-Scots people were driven from Ireland by the savage Gaels!

Beano
"I'm sure everyone in NI today is the descendant of an invader"

I doubt it. There's a big difference between a migrant and an invader.

"Some would say there is a sizeable population in the republic who are more comfortable with a union flag than a tricolour,the sindy's,not me though"

*cough bullshit*
The sindy? That's the new magazine from Comedy Central is it? ;)

Concerned Loyalist - no Beano said he doesn't want loyalist propaganda!

"By the way, when NI has played in Dublin, no NI flag was flown nor anthem for NI played either, so a consistent approach. Maybe you didn't realise that."

Any comment to make of what Gav Belfast said here, Clady Cowboy? Or are you not interested in people prodining a sense of fairness and balance when you're in the middle of a blinkered rant?

And another thing:

St Patrick is the patron saint of the whole island of Ireland, which includes both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Could I, as a Northern Irishman, celebrate my patron saint Belfast, capital of Northern Ireland, with a Northern Ireland flag, as so many people do with RoI flags and emblems? Would I be welcomed? Or would I face verbal and likely physical abuse? In that case, who is it that is displaying intolerance and hatred?

By the way, when NI has played in Dublin, no NI flag was flown nor anthem for NI played either, so a consistent approach. Maybe you didn't realise that."

That was wrong the NI flag should have been flown and NI anthem played,plus like the belfast game,Away Fans should have been allowed to travel to the game.

Mike
"Could I, as a Northern Irishman, celebrate my patron saint Belfast, capital of Northern Ireland, with a Northern Ireland flag, as so many people do with RoI flags and emblems? Would I be welcomed? Or would I face verbal and likely physical abuse? In that case, who is it that is displaying intolerance and hatred?"

Looks like you've already passed judgement there Mike.
Answer, yes. I doubt many people (if any, bar the odd moron) would have a problem with you celebrating the "patron saint Belfast" with an NI flag - in the South, can't speak for the North. We've no problem with the NI flag.

CavanMan
"That was wrong the NI flag should have been flown..."

How do you know it wasn't? It's a bit hard check the situation at all the matches.
Out of curiousity when was the last time NI played in Dublin?

Maca -

That should've read "patron saint IN Belfast". Think I might've attracted the wrong sort of attention had I gone into the city centre with a NI flag (I think I can make some sort of informed judgement, having been there sans flag). In the Republic, I'm pretty sure as you say I wouldn't have had a problem.

NI last played in Dublin in 1999 - invited down as part of a 'peace' friendly but still our flag wasn't flown. I know it wasn't because I was there - didn't really spoil my enjoyment I have to say as NI won 1-0;)

Mike,
Ok, as I said, belfast I can't speak for.

NI in Dublin - the comment though referred to all the games, not just the last one. ;)
"when NI has played in Dublin, no NI flag was flown nor anthem for NI played"

Maca, you're correct, I said I didn't want loyalist propaganda (although I was already familiar with most of what concerned loyalist said), but rather than dismiss it out of hand, you could perhaps point out the inaccuracies or point us towards what you feel to be a more reliable source. Is what he says inaccurate, or do you just feel it is irrelavant to compare 2000 year old stories with the situation in NI today?

I also have to agree with Mike, I was toying with the idea of something similar. I own 2 green t-shirts, one of which is my Northern Ireland top. I know its become customary to wear green on St Patricks day - but I don't think I'd be very welcome in the city centre wearing my NI top, never mind any flags.

I prefer not to think about the other games maca;)

Beano

``I wasn't trying to lay claim to ownership of the territory, I'm just trying to make the point that all the feckin "We were here first so go home" rubbish is pointless. If you look back far enough I'm sure everyone in NI today is the descendant of an invader.''

Hmmmm. This old chestnut resurfaces from time to time. I'm always struck anew by the sheer self-deception required to resort to this argument.

The point, as must surely be clear, is not that Ireland's pro-British population should be expelled. On the contrary, 99.99999% of Ireland's pro-Irish population would be appalled at such a prospect. The point is that the people of Ireland should have sovereignty over Ireland - that includes the pro-British people. Ending the union wouldn't mean population shifts or putting anyone on the Larne boat. It might suit certain dire shades of unionism to frame the debate in such nihilistic terms, but it's sheer fantasy - easily as preposterous and grotesque as Concerned Loyalist's little history lesson.

You say
``I wasn't trying to lay claim to ownership of the territory''

But of course unionists ARE doing exactly that. See: Partition; and The Union. The problem is not that an invasion happened long ago. The problem is not that the descendants of those invaders are still here, and are going to be here for all time. The problem is that those descendants are still acting like invaders and occupiers. That was, is and will remain an unacceptable status quo for the overwhelming majority of people in Ireland, for whom Ireland is the frame of reference, and for whom consensus and common cause between all the people of Ireland is the goal.

Pointing out that the invasion, occupation and plantation to which we owe the modern-day unionist community was not the first in Irish history is a red herring. All previous invaders eventually made common cause with the rest of Ireland, thus allowing historical grievances to become juat that - history. Our present-day division is rooted in the refusal - or inability - of the most recent invaders to reconcile themselves to the fact that this is Ireland.

``I'm just trying to make the point that all the feckin "We were here first so go home" rubbish is pointless.''

It certainly is. However, no-one is advocating that the unionist community ``go home''. (Funny thing to say to a community that has been here for about four centuries or so!) I am aware that unionism has often taken `Brits Out' to mean just that, but republicans will counter that they simply mean British troops and British sovereignty should be removed from Ireland or any part of it.

So that being the case, let's keep on-topic. What most people in Ireland want is an end to the union and partition. Nobody wants the unionist community to leave Ireland - in fact, as a passionate anti-partitionist and anti-unionist, I would prefer to see the godawful status quo preserved, rather than a united Ireland which Ulster's Protestants felt compelled to leave in large numbers.

``If you look back far enough I'm sure everyone in NI today is the descendant of an invader.''

Yes but their invasions and occupations are over. Unionism's is ongoing. What nationalists are saying is: let it go, chill out and let's just acknowledge that we're brothers.

Beano
When people start going back to stories of Cú Chulainn I get a bit worried. Your best bet is a good history book, there's few websites you can really trust, and I wouildn't trust much posted here as each side has their own "version of the facts". ;)

Yeah, as I said to Mike I was talking about south of the border.

Billy,

you make your point well but I feel your main point "The point is that the people of Ireland should have sovereignty over Ireland" is a touch flawed.

Why draw the line around Ireland? Why not Ulster or Northern Ireland (or part thereof)? Why not the British Isles?

Where do you decide where the people of a territory are distinct enough from others, and yet coeherent enough internally, to be soveriegn over that territory?

god, that was littered with typos - sorry!

Mike
"I prefer not to think about the other games maca;)"

Don't worry. I won't mention them again.

"I lived in London for years and would certainly not dream of flying a tricolour on St.George's day as a means to REFLECT MY HERITAGE-it wouldn't be appreciated."

The difference being that the Union flag CONTAINS St Patrick`s Cross. Indeed the Fiji flag contains a Union Jack if my memory serves me right but even if it didnt it is not the same as Fiji is not part of the UK. You seem to be trying to turn this around to a dislike of the Tri-colour. The Tri-colour is the flag of the Republic of Ireland and of Nationalists on Northern Ireland and is quite entitled to be flown on St Patrick`s day or any other day. My argument is that it is NOT the flag of the entire island and that the Union flag, St Patrick`s flag and indeed the Nothern Ireland flag are just as legitimate on St Patrick`s Day. St Patrick certainly would not recognise the Tri-colour, Northern Ireland flag or St PAtricks Cross flag and may even have disapproved of flags altogether.

The point however remains that your definition of being Irish is what is actually in question. Quite obviously from your point of view you cannot be Irish if you do not wave the Tri-colour or take a United Ireland viewpoint. Would that be correct?

"Limerick's band parade took place today."

Is this the same parade the Kilcluney Volunteer Flute Band won last year parading just as they normally do with Union Jack and Northern Ireland flag?

Alan
"The difference being that the Union flag CONTAINS St Patrick`s Cross..."

A flag which means nothing to us.

"My argument is that it is NOT the flag of the entire island..."

We don't celebrate an "island day", if I may call it that, we celebrate a "national day". Now, what is the flag of that nation? ;)

Hi Billy,

“The problem is that those descendants are still acting like invaders and occupiers”

How are those who wish to be United with Britain any more “invaders and occupiers” than those wish there to be part of a United Ireland? Surely, both are the same?

This argument comes up all the time. Every time, Nationalists point out it’s “natural” for the island to be one unitary state and give loads of examples. Every time, Unionists point out that it’s equally as natural for an island, or indeed any landmass, to be split politically and give loads of examples. My own opinion is that as Political entities are manmade concepts they should reflect the people who constructed them and change to reflect those people. Not the geographical entity it happens to be in, which will (usually) have existed for millions of years.

“Our present-day division is rooted in the refusal - or inability - of the most recent invaders to reconcile themselves to the fact that this is Ireland.”

That’s convenient! One could equally say that the “division is rooted in the refusal - or inability - of the Gaelic invaders to reconcile themselves to the fact that these are the British Isles”. Why not role back to the position prior to the invasion by the “tribe” to which you subscribe? All equal nonsense.

Hi Biffo,

“As per the "Narrow-minded Loyalist Bigot's Fantasy History Of Ulster" by Ian Adamson et al (1981 - Jesus, Ulster, & God's Chosen People Books Ltd).”

That being the case, can you then explain…

1.) How Scotland got it’s name. Why did it change from Caledonia?
2.) The name changes within Ireland from those noted by Ptolemy if there wasn’t a Gaelic invasion after the maps were made.
3.) The Dane’s cast, the Dorsey and Black Pig’s Dyke.
4.) The ring forts in Antrim/Down (old Ulidia) used to suppress the locals, of a type similar to those on the Iberian peninsula.
5.) Genetic studies which show strong links between Scotland and Ireland form prehistoric times.

Dismissing what Beano or Concerned Loyalist said as nonsense does your argument no good unless you can put up arguments that challenge what they say…

Silly me, I thought it was a Saint's day. Now, what is the flag of that Saint? I will accept any of:
a) Cross of St Patrick
b) Old style Cross of St Patrick
c) He has no flag

but not the tricolour.

OR... if it's a national day then how do you define the nation? The tricolour is the flag of the Irish republic, to which we do not belong.

Beano

You ask about Concerned Loyalist's post. Here goes.

He writes of ``the settlers from Scotland and England who came over to settle in Ireland, but in particular the North-East of the island, in Ulster''.

Indeed there has always been a cross-fertilisation of ideas between the islands. Loyalism has grafted a political significance on to what is no more than a natual series of migrations back and forth between northestern Ulster and the Scottish lowlands. However there is no historical evidence whatsoever that any Scottish tribes or power blocs ever attempted to colonise any part of Ireland. There is no evidence of mass migrations in either direction across the Irish Sea. There is no doubt that there were long-term Scottish migrants in Ireland who gained local influence. The fantasy factory of loyalist history likes to pretend that tribal chieftains in Antrim with Scottish ancestors were forerunners to British rule in Ireland. Loyalist fantasy pretends that their conflicts with rival chieftains were forerunners to partition. In fact these migrants were simply those who had woven themselves into the existing fabric of Ireland more thoroughly than most, and who in turn brought their Scottish influences into Irish life. (See, for example, ancient and medieval Ireland's adoption of the kilt.)

When loyalist historians claim modern-day significance in such such things they highlight either a) their own intellectual and academic dishonesty or b) (if indeed they actually believe that what they're writing amounts to a serious contribution) that the writer in question has not received a historian's education and is not qualified to call himself a historian at all.

Concerned Loyalist says ``This became known as "THE RETURN OF THE CRUTHIN", (SIC) who had links with the "PICTS".''

First off, the existence of the Cruithin is far from being accepted as historical fact. Indeed I am not aware of their existence ever having been mentioned before the early 80s. When he say ``this became known as ....'' one must ask: known to whom?

He says the cruithin ``had links with the Picts''. He does not elaborate on these links, nor on their significance.

``This is because the Gaels forced their ancestors to flee Ulster, as they wished to take their land and livestock for their own.''

First off, what Concerned Loyalist is describing is a massive population movement - one that presumably must have been accompanied by widespread violence - violence so successful (in that according to Concerned Loyalist it resulted in the removal of the `Cruithin' from Ireland) as to be a textbook case of genocide.

Yet there is no historical evidence for what must have been one of the most monumental happenings in the history of these islands. Indeed this massive cataclysm in European history was first mentioned by a couple of dubious historians about 20 years ago. It has gained little intellectual attention or popular traction since then - surprising, given that it deals with an event of such enormous significance. Especially surprising, given that it first emerged during a time of modern conflict, when the Cruithin argument was at its most helpful to unionism. Man, it could have been tailored as an answer to `Brits Out'.

Also, Concerned Loyalist declines to mention the fact, undisputed among historians with actual history qualifications, that these ancient Irelanders were themselves Gaels. They may have fought for power and wealth against fellow Gaels, but that's exactly what they were: fellow Gaels.

``The story of CuChulainn, the ancient Defender of Ulster, is based on the period that the Gaels forced them to flee across the Irish Sea.''

Actually, this is completely false. The Ulster Cycle does deal with a time of conflict between Ulster and other Irish provinces, most notably Connacht. But it is set in a context of a culturally-homogenous Gaelic Ireland in which the five Cuige are governed by warlord kings and queens constantly at war with each other. It does not deal with genocide or the expulsion of any culturally-distinct groupings from Ireland. It shows that the men of Ulster are different, but shows also that the various men of Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Tara all had their ways too. All were Gaels.

So when Concerned Loyalist says the story of Cuchullain ``is based on the period that the Gaels forced them to flee across the Irish Sea,'' it's like saying that the story of Wuthering Heights is set during the Falklands War. There is no response other than to say that it is completely and egregiously wrong. Whoever told you that was lying. (Clearly you can't have read it yourself.)

``The greedy Queen Maeve of Connaught invaded Ulster to steal one of their most prized animals, only for the renowned warrior CuChulainn to defy the Gaels and gallantly fight them almost single-handedly, keeping them at bay until he was eventually defeated and put on a stake and slaughtered!''

True, except for the detail about Cuchullain ``defying the Gaels''. Yes, the people he defied were Gaels, but so was Cuchullain. If you, Concerned Loyalist, got in a fight outside a pub in Sandy Row with a gang of fellow loyalists, would you talk about it as ``defying the loyalists''? Or defying the Protestants? Strictly speaking you could, and strictly speaking you'd be correct. But it'd be preposterous.

Oh, sorry, this detail is completely wrong too:

``keeping them at bay until he was eventually defeated and put on a stake and slaughtered!''

He wasn't put on a stake and slaughtered. In battle he was hit by an arrow. (I believe it was fired either by Daire or Lu - my memory is failing me!) He fought on but knew he was dying. However he was determined to die on his feet, so tied himseld upright to a rock and stood guard until the last breath left him. His enemies were too afraid to approach him, even in his weakened state. Only when a raven landed on his shoulder did they know he was dead.

(That scene is the one you have witnessed on loyalist gable ends. I'm starting to suspect that such murals are your primary source of historial evidence.)

``You can see this defiant image painted in murals throughout loyalist areas of Ulster.''

Ah.

``So you are absolutely correct in saying the ancestors of the Ulster-Scots people were driven from Ireland by the savage Gaels!''

Hmmm. Maybe so. I just can't get past the existence of ZERO evidence for it. And the sheer unlikelihood of there being no evidence for such a huge event.

``the Red Hand Province, known as Ulster''

Just being a stickler here, but the enlightened loyalist has it the wrong way around. The province is, in fact, actually CALLED Ulster. The Red Hand is the provincial symbol but I have never heard of the phrase `Red Hand province'.

``recognising our Britishness in Ulster, but at the same time recognising the rights of Southern Ireland, and their perceived "Irishness".''

Love the way he refers to ``perceived'' Irishness, and puts the word in inverted commas. And the way Saorstat Eireann only ``recognised the rights'' of Irish people in the 26. (In fact it gave them the embryo of a republic.) His choice of words is revealing.

``Six of the nine counties of Ulster became the state of NORTHERN IRELAND and the other 26 counties became known as the "Irish Free State", before it was declared as a Republic in 1937.''

In fact Saorstat Eireann voted by referendum to ratify a new constituion, Bunreacht na hEireann, in 1937, and chaged its name to Eire. Eire remained in the Commonwealth and was not, technically, fully sovererign. Full, dotted i and crossed t sovereignty did not come til the Republic was decared - in 1949.

Beano

Yeah, silly you ;)
It's not either/or. Not only is St.Pats a Saints day BUT it is also a national holiday in Ireland (ROI), in fact it is our ONLY national holiday. And very simply the nation to which I refer is the one which identifies itself with said state.

When I say "national holiday" I am not referring to two different states, I thought that was obvious.

One of my main points earlier is that instead of complaining why don't people in NI (i.e. the protestant community) celebrate St.Pats as a saints day while we celebrate our national holiday. Would that work for anyone do you think?

People seem to think we all have to celebrate the day in the same way. There already is a difference, in the ROI it's a national holiday, in NI it's not (correct me if I am wrong).

Thanks Billy. Good to see an alternative version of events. The closest I've come so far to a "source" is on wikipedia.

There was discussion re: making paddy's day a public holiday a few years back. At the minute, the secretary of state has to declare it as a holiday each year, along with the 12th (and presumably the 13th). The same discussion mentioned including Ulster Day in the list of what would become national holidays, but as usual with local politics, I think there was a lot of talk followed by no action.

http://www.ni-forum.gov.uk/debates/1997/210297.htm

"We don't celebrate an "island day", if I may call it that, we celebrate a "national day". Now, what is the flag of that nation? ;)"

Right. So it`s Irish Nationalist day then and not a celebration of Patrick bringing Christianity to the island of Ireland. Glad we cleared that one up then.

"One of my main points earlier is that instead of complaining why don't people in NI....."

The only people comlaining are those that are creating a fuss about certain flags not being welcome. Why invite a DUP Mayor to a St Patrick`s parade in Seattle in the first place if it is "Irish Nationalist" day?

"the existence of the Cruithin is far from being accepted as historical fact."

then to whom did the kingdom of Dalriada belong?
Are the Ulaid the same as the Cruithin?

it does not seem overly far fetched to consider than people dispalced upon the collapse of Dalriada moved to SW Scotland and centuries later some returned during the plantations....

Alan.

``Right. So it`s Irish Nationalist day then and not a celebration of Patrick bringing Christianity to the island of Ireland. Glad we cleared that one up then.''

Clearly it's both. You can celebrate it as a national holiday, a religious holiday, or both. Or you can choose to boycott the celebrations if it makes you happy. Whatever.

Those of us who are of Ireland and for Ireland have focussed on the feast day of our nation's patron saint as a day of national celebration. What's wrong with that? Why can't unionists at least just say good luck to us?

If unionism chooses to sit it out, frankly, it's unionism's loss. Non-Irish people the world over are happy to enjoy the day with us and wear green and revel in symbols of Irishness. Sadly a naysaying Irish minority chooses to miss out. A pity, but consistent, I suppose, with the internal logic of unionism.

Unionism's boycott of St Patrick's Day celebrations is best viewed as a microcosm of its more general boycott of things Irish. On St Patrick's Day the incongruity of that boycott is magnified.

Hi Billy/Beano,

“However there is no historical evidence whatsoever that any Scottish tribes or power blocs ever attempted to colonise any part of Ireland. There is no evidence of mass migrations in either direction across the Irish Sea.”

The distribution of Megalithic structures in Ireland in terms of sophistication and number show that Ireland was first settled from Scotland.
The Kingdom of Dalriada consisted of parts of NE Ireland and Argyll. Both show the above to be incorrect.

“First off, the existence of the Cruithin is far from being accepted as historical fact.”

??? There’s a place in Co. Londonderry called Duncrun, Irish Dún Cruithean, which means “fort of the Cruthin”. Also, Drumcroon - the “hill of the Cruthin”. So, I’d say that suggests they did exist. However, to say that their descendents are Ulster Prods is an oversimplification. Similar to the notion that Ireland has been Gaelic since time immemorial. Irish history is quite complicated. Recent genetic studies for instance show that Celtic influence is much less than what has been portrayed by historians. The “Irish” actually have quite a lot of genetic similarity with other peoples of the Atlantic seaboard. The adoption of Gaelic culture could be likened to the adoption of American culture. Rather than a full scale Gaelic invasion.

“a massive population movement - one that presumably must have been accompanied by widespread violence” and “Yet there is no historical evidence for what must have been one of the most monumental happenings in the history of these islands”

??? Battle of Moira in 637.

Why can't the Northern Irish celebrate it as a national day too? If the northern Irish (cunning use of lowercase n) can bring out their tricolours for the day, why can't unionists celebrate their own "nation"? If we take Cllr whatshisname's position, one would presume that we can't without being labelled bigoted and sectarian and trying to make a political point. As I said before, I'd have been happy to join in and wear my green Northern Ireland football top but I don't think it would go down to well with the revellers.

Alan

``then to whom did the kingdom of Dalriada belong?''

The Kingdom of Dalriada was an indigenous Irish kingdom, centred mostly around present day Co Antrim. The warlords of Dalriada - for that is what ancient Irish chieftains and monarchs were - expanded their influence into lowland Scotland. They went to Scotland as conquerors - not as refugees, as illiterate loyalist historians would have you believe. Eventually their influence in Scotland exceeded that in Ireland. Over a period of CENTURIES their centre of political gravity shifted and the capital of Dalriada moved from Ireland to Scotland. Their significance in Ireland diminished and Dalriada eventually passed from the scene in Ireland - not sure of exact details though. Meanwhile in Scotland the kings of Dalriada became the first recognised line of Scottish kings.

``Are the Ulaid the same as the Cruithin?''

`Ulaid' is just an archaic spelling of `Uladh' - which is simply the Irish spelling of Ulster. You sometimes here the Ulster Cycle referred to as the Ulaid Cycle, so I would guess that `Ulaid' is simply the singluar for a person from Ulster in old Irish. (Or the Irish for Ulsterish, if you will.) But they certainly did not constitute a specific cultural or ethnic group within Ireland.

And as for the Cruithin: I don't know who the hell they were supposed to have been, or what their significance in terms of modern-day loyalism is supposed to have been.

``it does not seem overly far fetched to consider than people displaced upon the collapse of Dalriada moved to SW Scotland and centuries later some returned during the plantations....''

Of course that's highly likely, though ultimately it is of no significance. (And we're talking about at least a millennium here, by the way.)It's highly unlikely that any of the planters were aware of any such links to Ireland. It's a matter of historical record that any possible links with some mythical past civilisation was not one of the reasons the planters came to Ireland. None of the Scottish planters talked about ``going home''.

So given the fact that the Cruithin myth has no credibility whatsoever, either as history or folklore, one must wonder what the hell this made-up legend is all about? Much the same as unionism's made-up language, Ulster Scots, one suspects. Ulster nationalism.

"What's wrong with that? Why can't unionists at least just say good luck to us?"

Good luck.
That`s the point. The Mayor of Lisburn was quite happy to participate in his own way...but apparently that is wrong.
I have no problems with the Tri-colour or St Patrick`s day...but when people promote it as cross-community then to me that means Tri-colour, St Patrick`s Cross, NI flag, Union Jack ans whatever anyone else wants to bring.

Someone mentioned wanting to see the Tri-colour at the Twelfth. I would have no problems with a Southern Lodge flying the Tri-colour but most Southern lodges choose to fly St Patrick`s Cross.

I notice a lot of republicans quick to dismiss ulster scots. I'm not big into it by a long shot, but I wonder would they be so dismissive of Irish as a modern language? Or is this just another attempt, like Cllr Butler's resignation calls to Mayor Calvert, to stifle anything on this island which doesn't fit into their definition of irishness.

"Ulster nationalism"

OK. So do people suggest that Ulster Nationalism is dealt with as it obviously will not go away and will only increase I would suggest within any "United Ireland". I have a quote floating about my head...I think to do with the Loyalist Workers Strike where the Labour NI Secretary says in parliament that there had been a huge rise in Ulster Nationalism re the UDA involvement in the LWS etc........

"but when people promote it as cross-community then to me that means Tri-colour, St Patrick`s Cross, NI flag, Union Jack ans whatever anyone else wants to bring"

Well said Alan2.

Billy Pilgrim:

"Much the same as unionism's made-up language, Ulster Scots, one suspects."

You do know that Scots is recognised in Scotland and has a well-documented history there, don't you?

Congal Claen

Re. Cruithin.

Please, tell me more about them. The existence of places with names like Duncrun and Drumcroon is interesting but far from conclusive. `Cruithin' may simply have been a person's name - we don't actually know. The evidence is thin - and I would venture that it's thinner than one would expect if we're talking about a civilisation here.

``??? Battle of Moira in 637.''

You still haven't got over that, have you Congal?

Seriously though, the battle of Moira in no way tallies with the loyalist myth of the Cruithin. One warlord defeated another, ending his control over part of Ireland. That's all. No population movements, no genocide, just a new dispensation.

Hi Billy,

"Over a period of CENTURIES..."

The Gaelicisation of Ireland ocurred over centuries...

What's your point?

"So given the fact that the Cruithin myth..."

Care to comment on...

"1.) How Scotland got it’s name. Why did it change from Caledonia?
2.) The name changes within Ireland from those noted by Ptolemy if there wasn’t a Gaelic invasion after the maps were made.
3.) The Dane’s cast, the Dorsey and Black Pig’s Dyke.
4.) The ring forts in Antrim/Down (old Ulidia) used to suppress the locals, of a type similar to those on the Iberian peninsula.
5.) Genetic studies which show strong links between Scotland and Ireland from prehistoric times."

... as mentioned earlier?

"Much the same as unionism's made-up language, Ulster Scots, one suspects."

That says quite alot and re-enforces some very sweeping stereotypes. It is quite clear from some of the literature released recently that Scots in Ulster is very real and has been here for a very long time. James Fenton`s "A Hamely Tongue" is highly recommended.

Alan
"So it`s Irish Nationalist day then and not a celebration of Patrick bringing Christianity to the island of Ireland. Glad we cleared that one up then"

Don't twist my words. As you well know it's our only national day. As I also said if YOU Alan want to celebrate it as "a celebration of Patrick bringing Christianity to the island of Ireland" then there's nothing stopping you but you will not tell me how I should celebrate it.

"The only people comlaining are those that are creating a..."

You, and others, are obviously complaining about how we celebrate the day.

Beano
"Why can't the Northern Irish celebrate it as a national day too?"

Go right ahead, you're entitled to.
When did your community come out and celebrate it though, as a community? And I don't mean waving a Union Flag at our celebration.

Btw, there's a big difference between Irish and Ulster Scots. Having said that i support all minority languages.
(i'm not a republican though)

What is wrong with a bit of invention?

Beano

``I notice a lot of republicans quick to dismiss ulster scots. I'm not big into it by a long shot, but I wonder would they be so dismissive of Irish as a modern language?''

Sorry to be a stick in the mud about this mate, but there is a monumental disparity with your analogy - ie, that the Irish language is a language. It has been in existence for a couple of millennia at least, and is spoken to varying levels by hundreds of thousands of people today. Indeed I see `mo chuisle' was voted one of Hollywood's big buzz words of the year recently.

Ulster Scots, on the other hand, was discovered by that noted linguist Nelson McCausland of the DUP circa 1992. Frankly, your equation of the luxuriant, textured, ancient Irish language, with its world-class literature and vivid richness, to Ulster Scots only highlights your ignorance of the Irish language. There is no comparison between the two, except as sectarian bargaining chips in the internal politicking of Northern Ireland. But then Ulster Scots has no meaning outside of the sectarian squabbles of NI - the Irish language, however, is a magnificent thing.

Ulster Scots can get back to me when it has: a grammar; a dictionary; a literature; native speakers; evidence that it has ever had native speakers; or anything else that might persuade me that it deserves to be taken seriously.

Alan.

``You do know that Scots is recognised in Scotland and has a well-documented history there, don't you?''

Yes, I did know that. Frankly, that's a matter for the Scots. We're talking about Ulster Scots though - which is, if anything, a dialect of a dialect (or more accurately, a deliberately exaggerated Ballymena accent). Your point does not address mine.

Hi Billy,

I think it's wrong to get to hung up on the name the Cruthin. As you appear aware, there were loads of tribes in Ireland at the time and it's far from simple to unravel all the links between them. However, I don't think you'd be too far of the mark to suggest that there has been toing and froing between Scotland and Ireland from the earliest of times. This is why I get irratated at being termed invader/settler/planter when exactly the same thing can be said of the Gael.

However, the good thing about the whole thing is that it shows how much we have in common. To be split into 2 tribes is frankly ridiculous and due to Irish history being oversimplified...

Good to see you got the auld battle of Moira connection. My eye's still stinging ;)

I think I'd need to do more research into the Ullans to back this up, but from what I've read, there are many more speakers in Northern Ireland of Ulster Scots than there are of Gaelic Irish (perhaps moreso than on the whole island).

Regardless of whether it is a language or not (I'm not in a position to make a case either way) it would seem to have at least as much cultural value as Irish, and there appears just as much (or as little) reason for including it in signs, government publications and other expensive panderings.

Beano
"there are many more speakers in Northern Ireland of Ulster Scots than there are of Gaelic Irish (perhaps moreso than on the whole island)"

Define "speakers".
And how do they gauge the level of fluency in U-Scots?
2002 census claims there are 1,570,894 speakers of varying levels of Irish in Ireland(state).

Why does Ulster-Scots not have its own name. The Scots were a celtic tribe from north of Ireland who spoke gaelic. They intregated with the Picks in Caledonia,now known as Scotland. The people who spoke so called scots were actually germanic probably from gothic germany they intregated with the english speaking anglo-saxons in lowlands Scotland.

"Why does Ulster-Scots not have its own name"

It does, it's called Ulster-Scots ;)

This is regards NI only:
Ullans
Numerical strength: The census does not include a question on the Ulster-Scots language. From studies that were done in the 1960s it was estimated that there were 168,000 native speakers with 10,000 to 15,000 monoglot speakers and the rest bilingual. It is now estimated that this has declined to 100,000 with 5,000 to 10,000 monoglot speakers. Ulster-Scots survives mainly as a spoken language with very few speakers literate in the language. There are very few revivalist speakers.

Gaelic
The 1991 census revealed that there are 142,003 people in Northern Ireland claiming knowledge of the language (this includes people who do not claim ability to speak the language). A 1987 survey indicated that 11% (about 100,000 people) of the population of Northern Ireland aged between 16 and 69 had some knowledge of Irish. Of this group, only 6% claimed to have full fluency, 84% never used Irish at home, 15% used the language occasionally and 1% claimed to use Irish on a daily basis.

From EuroLang.net

Ulster-Scots is neither from Ulster nor is it SCOT. The Scots being a gaelic speaking celtic tribe from ulster or the north.

Factfinder
"Ulster-Scots is neither from Ulster nor is it SCOT"

It is an Ulster dialect of the Scots language ("Scots Language" as opposed to "language spoken by Scots")

My point is why does it not have its own name instead of using the name of a gaelic speaking celtic tribe with which it has no connections except the uster-scots speakers stole Scots land in lowlands Scotland. Is it steal your land then steal your name.

well ... does it matter though? ;)

Yes, I would be ready to recognise a language if it had its own history going back further than 1992.

Have you seen scots-online.org? Some good info there about the Scots language.
As far as U-Scots is concerned the only problem I have is with Laird and others in the US movement who are creating some sort of 'false U-Scots' just to combat the Irish language. I have no problem respecting or supporting the genuine Ulster Scots dialect.

Congal Claen

``I don't think you'd be too far of the mark to suggest that there has been toing and froing between Scotland and Ireland from the earliest of times.''

Spot on. Never in doubt. The affinity between Ulster and Scotland is well documented, but there is also a very strong affinity between Ireland generally and Scotland. (You should have seen Braveheart in a Dublin cinema when it came out!)

``This is why I get irratated at being termed invader/settler/planter when exactly the same thing can be said of the Gael.''

But you should be aware CC that no-one has any objection to your community's being here. No-one objects to your ways and traditions. The objection is purely to your insistence on the partitioning of the country and what, to most Irish people is foreign rule in Ireland. It's true that we are all blow-ins here: unionism differs from everyone else though in insisting on overseas rule.

I still dont see any history of the language predating the highland clearances. The site seems to suggest that the 'scots'speakers are themselves scottish when they were planted in lowlands scotland from land confiscated from native scots. But were did the language come from. It seems to be a dialect of english or at most a hybrid of english and some other germanic language.

How far back do you need to go Factfinder?
(Btw first you said 1992 so even the highland clearances are quite a bit before that ;))

All European languages basically came from a common root, so they are all pretty much the same age though some only became identified/recognised later on:

"Until the beginning of the 19th century the official language used in Norway was Danish. It was only with the reemergence of Norway as an independent nation that a distinct, autonomous standard Norwegian was developed - with two orthographies - Bokmål and Nynorsk"
Would you consider Norwegian to be a language?

What about Afrikaans which only became "an independent language with the acquisition of its own name, orthography and standardised grammar" in the 1920's.

The "scots' language goes back to mid 19th century but 'ulster-scots' back to 1992. Afrakaans is just a dutch dialect.If you can speak dutch you can understand written afrikaans. Both these are germanic languages.

Afrikaaners invented their own language because they refused to intregate with the native people and language(s). Does this sound familiar?

Out of curiousity, where are you getting this 1992 from?

Someone earlier mentioned Nelson McCausland 'inventing' ulster-scots circa 1992'

I never heard anyone mentioning 'ulster-scots' in the seventies or eighties.

Doesn't mean it didn't exist just because you didn't hear of it.
From the BBC:

"History of Ulster-Scots

The Scots character of Ulster-Scots, deriving from Lallans (Lowlands Scots), is its dominant and distinguishing feature. During the 16th and 17th centuries Scots speakers brought their language from Scotland to the north-east of Ireland.

During the 16th and 17th centuries Scots speakers brought their language from Scotland to the north-east of Ireland.
Political events in Scotland during this time, namely the Reformation in 1560 and the Union of the Crowns in 1603 increased the use of English by making it the language of the church and administration, having a damaging impact on the status of Scots there, confining it largely to a spoken language.

Meanwhile, for Ulster-Scots speakers in Northern Ireland, a literary tradition was boosted by the publications of the Weaver-poets at the end of the 18th century. Although Ulster-Scots continued to be used in the community and in prose works into the 20th century, it was not until the late 20th century that it began to receive greater official recognition.

With the establishment of organisations such as the Ulster-Scots Language Society in 1992 and the Ulster-Scots Heritage Council in 1994 and the language's recognition in the Belfast Agreement, it is hoped that the Ulster-Scots tongue will gather strength throughout the 21st century."

Thanks for that info but because I have not heard of 'ulster-scots' says a lot about its common usage.

The fact that I can understand most of written 'scots'and the fact that I don't speak any other language compels me to think it is a hybrid language. I have no problems with the 'language' itself but the name 'scots' is misleading.

I remember reading that the Ulster Scots language (or Ullans for whoever keeps insisting it doesn't have it's own name) derived from Middle English and is probably closer to Middle English than modern English is (hence the old addage of my English teacher who always told us that English children would have to learn around 10 times as many words reading shakespeare as those in Northern Ireland - although I think this probably applied more when she was at school!)

"Thanks for that info but because I have not heard of 'ulster-scots' says a lot about its common usage."

A consequence of the use of Ulster Scots in the education system being dismissed as "bad English" which should be corrected.

The fact is it is a dialect. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be preserved as with all english dialects. They were all dismissed as bad english including the use of double negatives.The 'home counties Queens english' was always regarded as proper english.

Hi Billy P,

“You should have seen Braveheart in a Dublin cinema when it came out!”

I actually watched this in a London cinema when it first came out. There were 7 of us – 2 Scots, 2 English, 2 from NI and 1 from RoI. The cinema would have held 100s. But I doubt there were more than 20 in it. We joked about how we thought the Scots were gonna rip the seats out at the end…

“It's true that we are all blow-ins here: unionism differs from everyone else though in insisting on overseas rule”

But it’s not overseas rule. MPs elected here have as much of a say in the running of parts of England as English MPs do of here. In fact we have a higher weighting, as really our numbers would suggest we shouldn’t have 18 MPs.

If you are against “overseas” rule, what are your opinions on the EU? I always thought the RoI was one of the most pro EU countries in Europe (well, at least prior to the last enlargement).

'If you are against “overseas” rule, what are your opinions on the EU? I always thought the RoI was one of the most pro EU countries in Europe (well, at least prior to the last enlargement).'

Congal Claen,

If having 18 MPS in Westminster floats your boat, contrast the power the ROI has within the EU! ;-)

The RoI has more power than it should have in the EU for its size, (something that will surely change post-enlargement?). One more example of why something so grossly undemocratic needs to be reformed, and not by solidifying its undemocratic structures in a constitution.

Interestingly though, by that logic, the best course of action for Northern Ireland would be independence, then we could avail ourselves of the rights other indpendent nation states get in the EU.

'The RoI has more power than it should have in the EU for its size, (something that will surely change post-enlargement?).'

Now, now. Don't be jealous. And any changes would require the ROI's consent.

'Interestingly though, by that logic, the best course of action for Northern Ireland would be independence, then we could avail ourselves of the rights other indpendent nation states get in the EU.'

Or for Armagh or Tyrone etc for that matter. If it works for Luxemburg. ;-)

The number of MPs from here should be equal to english MPs. 50/50. If you do it on a headcount after centuries of genecide then you only get 18.

"The number of MPs from here should be equal to english MPs. 50/50."

So Scotland and Wales don't get representation anymore. Interesting.

How about an upper house with greater representation from the outlying regions of the UK? For example NI would have a similar amount of votes to London, Wales etc?

Mike,

'St Patrick is the patron saint of the whole island of Ireland, which includes both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Could I, as a Northern Irishman, celebrate my patron saint Belfast, capital of Northern Ireland, with a Northern Ireland flag, as so many people do with RoI flags and emblems? Would I be welcomed? Or would I face verbal and likely physical abuse? In that case, who is it that is displaying intolerance and hatred?'

Thread was about the union jack being displayed not the Norn Iron flag so utterly pointless... however, that flag is not agreed upon, interesting metaphysics though and St.Patrick is a Roman citizen, why not fly a Roman banner? Or a EU flag? Anything to take away from the fact he's the Patron saint of Ireland(not north and south)

Billy Pilgrim,

Excellent posts that hit the spot. One pilgrim who's found the promised land!

this is wierd and after seeing the aniville horror movie its wow!

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