Think the BBC NI channel is 943

I for one shall be watching it with interest to see how the BBC potrays 11th Night bonfires.

There was a very interesting programme on RTE last week which was made by a Dutch film crew called "Belfast taxi" which, among other things, showed the preparations for the 11th Night bonfire on one of the Shankill estates.

I counted seven Irish tricolours on the top as the local children danced around chanting "burn them, burn them, burn them".

I certainly hope it won't be a case of the national broadcaster in Northern Ireland showing the burning of Ireland's national flag as some kind of communal bonding moment rather than the incitement to hatred that it is.

The bonfires are one thing, destroying property in order to organize them is another. Across the country there are examples of bonfires being held on council-owned playing fields used by local people rendering them unusable, and in addition the storage facilities near the fields are often broken into and vandalized.

And then of course the taxpayer has to pay to clean them up, and of course pay for the extra fire service coverage too.

Well George if the Irish state had not sanctioned and sponsored Irish republican terrorism against the Unionist community then maybe there would be less Irish flags burnt.

I look forward to seeing all those sylph like young maidens and those high achievers who take part in this cultural festival. No doubt there will be a surge of pride right across Norn Iron.

How condescending to the protestant working classes you are Pat. You must be more of the Blueshirt wing of the PRM than the Red Flag one.

If only we prods had a day where one-eyebrowed drunks could puke green beer and fight the peelers on. We could be so cultural then.

There is a big difference between a cutural event that has been spoilt by drinking and a cutural event that is solely about drinking.

Two Nations,
that's a bit of a huge claim. You'll be telling me the moon is made of cheese next.

So can you explain to me why Ireland, as a sponsor of terrorism, was voted on to the UN Security Council with the help of the United States and George Bush?

Can you explain why Ireland held the EU Presidency last year and why Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, godfather of terror for you, was lording it up with Bush at the Whitehouse not two weeks ago?

Can I put you down as another unionist who is proud to see people burn Irish flags, Catholic symbols and GAA symbols?

You should look at the other types who burn flags to see what type of company you're keeping.

Pat McLarnon

So the Building an Ireland of Equals actually means looking down your nose at working class prods. How easily the sectarian face of republicanism appears.

George

"You should look at the other types who burn flags to see what type of company you're keeping."

Like the protests against the invasion of Iraq that included flagburning - such an unreasonable bunch to be associated with.

I remeber some republicans having a go about Free P's objections to a film. The Free P's were told simply not to watch it if they objected. If you don't like a irish tricolour being burned then don't watch.

Roger

I accept your complaint about damage to public property. However, having been involved in numerous talks with public bodies over the last decade or so, their apporach of trying to ignore the fact that bonfires have been, are and will remain an annual event in the vain hope they will go away doesn't work. A management strategy needs to be put in place. In the area I live in in Belfast the number of bonfires were reduced from 8 (all of them on public roads) to two on waste ground sites through the work of local people and Diversity Challenges.

Also it doesn't help where in places a positive initiative is taken such as in Kilkeel they get metaphorically kicked in the teeth. Over the past few years they have developed a parade with historical costumes and family entertainment around the bonfire event. They planned to build on this with a dedicated site with a proper fire pit (the money had been raised for this). Arrangements had been made with the fire service to put the fire out at 12.15. The nationalist council's response 'NO'.

Fair deal,
if I don't like people inciting the working-class Protestant population to Northern Ireland to hate all things Irish, including my country, I should say nothing and look away.

I don't think so pal. I'd rather call them the bigotted, hate-filled racist thugs they are, even if others would rather cheer them on as they enjoy their bile fest over a few bevvies.

What demonstration were you on where national flags were burned and which one was burned by the way? Doesn't sound like a peaceful, democratic protest to me.

Fair-deal, have you lost it kiddo?

'I remeber some republicans having a go about Free P's objections to a film. The Free P's were told simply not to watch it if they objected. If you don't like a irish tricolour being burned then don't watch.'

Paedophile websites will be using that one next...

George

"I don't like people inciting the working-class Protestant population to Northern Ireland to hate all things Irish, including my country"

Ahh the good old reliable false consciousness. Those stupid working class prods always being mainpulated by "someone" blinding them to their true interests in the blah blah blah.

Working class (especially male) culture across the world is more agrressive whether it be Dublin, Belfast, Glasgow or Paris. If they don't like something they soon let you know.

"I should say nothing and look away."

That's what republicans told Free P's to do about something that offended them.

"bigotted, hate-filled racist thugs"

Of course I was forgetting only prods are bigotted and hate-filled silly me or is it that whenever faced with an expression of difference republicanism can't cope it goes straight for demonisation. Racist - since when were the Irish a 'race'?

Flag-burning
Iraq invasion - American flag

I'm with the supreme court of the USA on this one, flag-burning is a legitimate political statement.

George,

the Irish flag is burnt not because the protestant working classes are all seething bigots but because of the past misdeeds of the Irish state and the Irish Nation.

Of course, all these trappings of conflict should be moved away from but seeing as you are unable to recognise the part played by the Irish government in keeping the Irish war machine well oiled over the last few decades then I cannot see the prods giving up the flag burning.

Baby steps, George, baby steps.

The UK also sit on the UN Security Council, so by your reckoning the British state was NEVER EVER complicit in the killing of Provos, innocent Catholics or ROI citizens.

These inquiries are just a huge waste of time and money then.

CladyCowboy

I personally don't agree with the argument. Just reminding some republicans of it in the vain hope they apply some consistency.

George

By the way, as someone who opposes bigotry, hatred and racism will you be removing 'Brits Out' graffiti anytime soon?

Lets all celebrate the beacons that announced the arrival of the european freedom fighter who expelled sectarian colonial armies from Holland, and who laid firm foundations for the economic success and freedom that benefit these islands to this day.

'How condescending to the protestant working classes you are Pat. You must be more of the Blueshirt wing of the PRM than the Red Flag one.'

'Protestant, maybe: working, seldom: class, never.

'So the Building an Ireland of Equals actually means looking down your nose at working class prods. How easily the sectarian face of republicanism appears.'

Building an Ireland of Equals is all about destroying the sectarianism that some people choose to celebrate.

Pat,

I'm certainly in favor of destroying sectarianism. I also believe that must start with integrated schooling.

"Protestant, maybe: working, seldom: class, never."

That is woeful. Even Newt could do better than that.

Mc Larnon posts some of the most sectarian stuff you could imagine and then talks of destroying sectarianism. It was guys like this who rationalised their roles in the Holocaust.

Two nations,
"the Irish flag is burnt not because the protestant working classes are all seething bigots but because of the past misdeeds of the Irish state and the Irish Nation."

That's the best I've ever heard. You should go into children's storytelling.

Tell me more about this terrifying Irish war machine you mention. Do you think the UN should impose sanctions? Are we nuclear capable?

Strange the way people in the Irish Republic don't burn union flags because of Britain's misdeeds here.

I certainly don't see the Americans having a flag-burning bonanza day where they line up all those misdeeding country flags and set them ablaze, dress up as Mullahs and burn the Koran.

Fair Deal,
"By the way, as someone who opposes bigotry, hatred and racism will you be removing 'Brits Out' graffiti anytime soon?"

I'm in Cork at the moment, home of Ireland's feared Republican Guard and secret nuclear programme which I hear is at an advanced stage if the number of 12-legged cats is anything to go by.

The only political graffiti I've found here says "Up the UVF". It's on the main signpost just as you hit the dual carriageway from Dublin at Watergrasshill and has been there for over a year.

We're not big on graffiti or flag burning down here, too busy watching Dr. Strangelove to garner tips about world domination.

Love to continue this but I've a spot of heavy water lifting to do before I hit the pub to toast Israel's fighting draw against the French.

Jackal,

'Mc Larnon posts some of the most sectarian stuff you could imagine and then talks of destroying sectarianism. It was guys like this who rationalised their roles in the Holocaust.'

That is a lie that you will be unable to substantiate with anything i have written on the site. Stop lying (if possible) and debate.

hmmm... I think people call it the Irish Republican Army.

I think...may be a dream I had.

Jacko,
That's an unfair attack. You call Pat sectarian yet ignore some the previous comments. Unfair dude.

Fair deal, two nations
Why is the Irish flag burnt then? A political statement (I don't believe that for a second) or just to vent hatred at the Irish state and her people? (more probable)

It's all a bit pathetic really. Not worthy of debate. Just another bit of NI 'tradition' and 'culture' that makes most people cringe with embarassment......

VERDICT:
Not acceptable in a normal society.

Im guessing if its ok for Loyalists to burn the National Flag of my country..The same community would have no problem with us burning union flags/stormont flags etc..of course such an occurance would never happen,as we are too civilsed of culture to take part in such a vite act.

vile* typo

Excellent program.
Well done BBC.

Hey Pat - why don't you post Jacko's name and address ? LOL

please enlighten me what were the past misdeeds of the irish nation, was it stealing land from the indigenous population, feeding and employing people if they converted to protestantism, raping and pillaging because they had the 'right' to... preventing the minorities from having an equal opportunity in all areas of life? Sure sounds like holocost apologists to me. Or maybe something worse

*yawn* here we go again

I missed the documentary - shame. Bonfires have been unsightly eyesores in the past and I hope there's some sort of civic-'community' co-operation here soon. Used to like the bonfire but 2 months before and god knows how long afterwards, the place is a mess. And don't get me started on the "shows of strength". As with most things in Northern Ireland, getting rid of the paramilitaries would be a good start.

"Why is the Irish flag burnt then? A political statement (I don't believe that for a second) or just to vent hatred at the Irish state and her people? (more probable)"
A little from column A and a little from column B. When I was a yoof, I always saw it as a rejection of the Irish claim to sovereignty over us. Of course I would have never articulated it in that way, and I'm sure many of me peers would have seen it as little more than showing what good prods they are by hating the fenians.
Though I wish the republicans on here would stop giving off as if you don't see Union Flags on the tops of bonfires in August. But I'm sure that's not sectarian, I await the rationale as to why this is the case.

Beano, how many bonfires in August are you aware of? I live in a staunchly Republican area and there is never a bonfire. There used to be one in Newry but Sinn Féin representatives called for an end to the bonfire as it was no longer relative in the political context from which it had been born.

Maca

"Why is the Irish flag burnt then? A political statement (I don't believe that for a second) or just to vent hatred at the Irish state and her people? (more probable)"

A flag is a political symbol

The tricolour is the symbol of a state that sponsored the start-up of the Provos in preference to more socialist groups, and which failed to protect the lives of Protestants it would have claimed as citizens.

The burning of a human effigy is reserved for special hate figures, such as Lundy, the traitor who wanted to surrender the seige city of Derry.

Internal defectors and informants are a great threat to sectarian in-groups, hence the bloody fate of Eamon Collins, the author who revealed the workings of the IRA, and the special hatred reserved for 'Touts'.

I think that many informers have served this community well over the years.

Their actions will often be the only thing that breaks through the wall of paramilitary threat that interns us all.

Pretty good. I think it portrayed the bonfires accurately. Showed the good and the bad although it did not really mention the paramilitary shows of strength..it concentrated on the kids building the bonfires.

Northern Ireland protestants burn the flag of the Irish Republic because their "identity" is in fact a negative identity, they derive whatever vestigial degree of self-definition they have left from an assertion of what they are NOT rather than a celebration of what they are.

In common with many communities in profound crisis, abandoned by the elites of their self defined "homeland" their rituals are hate-filled ventings of a visceral and irrational anger, anger at betrayal by their symbolic compatriots, anger at the cunning "taigs" who have bought and sold them all the way down the line,and lastly and saddest of all, anger at themselves as they wake to the realisation that they are inveterate and irreversible losers, and widely reviled by all civilised people throughout the UK and the rest of the world.

Interesting claim levitas...where does it leave the free state and ROI which were so desperate to define themselves as not British that they harmed the education of their children by insisting they were taught in a language they didn't understand ?

I can't accept that point at all, Davros. The Irish langauge is not about a sense of anti-Britishness, it is a part of our island and I think it is fair that many are rightly proud of the language and want to preserve it. If you feel Irish shouldn't be compulsary, then that's an arguable point but it's just wrong to pigoen hole the Irish language as being an expression of anti-Britishness.

I'm only aware of two PS. One near Bawnmore in Newtownabbey and one near the Westlink in Belfast. I can't say for certain that there are more, of course, I rarely venture that deep into republican areas for obvious reasons (my eyes are too far apart/close together, I forget which!)

I'll make a point of noting the location of any I see in Poleglass this August though, just for you ;)

Levitas, to criticise unionists identity as negative while watching your own compatriots do everything they can to NOT be British is a bit rich really. Ulster protetants are not, by definition, negative. Unfortunately most of them don't know enough about their "culture" to realise this (and I'm not much of an expert myself to be fair. Personally whenever someone mentions the words "culture" or "heritage" I feel the urge to reach for a gun!). Back to culture and not knowing about it, I do wonder how many kids round the bonfire know, for example, that the Glorious Revolution was about the divine right of kings vs authority of parliament as much as or more than a "fenian vs prod" type fight, played out all too often on the streets of Belfast for 300 years since (and counting).

"it's just wrong to pigoen hole the Irish language as being an expression of anti-Britishness."
Seriously - it obviously didn't originate as such an expression, but it certainly came back to prominence due to it, especially in Irish medium schools in Northern Ireland. I'd say the same about the GAA, which to this day, thrives on it's anti-Britishness. Would you believe that everyone who plays the sport would do so today if it didn't make them "a good fenian". (Sorry I'm using the F word so much in this thread so please don't take offence to that in itself, the only catholics I know tend to use it in the same way - anything thats staunchly pro-Irish and/or anti-British).

Ah but people throughout the world like and admire Irish culture...the Irish have something to be genuinely smug (and I agree sometimes sickeningly) about....but ludicrous Ulster Scots and Lambeg drums? Ulster's bonfire brigades are the cultural equivalent of Millwall supporters who bellow "nobody likes us we don't care" -unfortunately the vast bulk of Ulster's protestants "do care" and are profoundly embarrassed by the lumpen antics of the neanderthals on the many estates such as the Springmartin, sad really.The bonfires are actually an embarrassment to most middle class unionists, but they smile indulgently and do not condemn them, because they know its one of the few hollow symbolic acts left of a once proudly triumphalist culture.

George
Perhaps no one has ever shown them an alternative way.

There is a basic law of physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Which if it holds true for politics means that we should seek to dampen issues rather excite them. This does not mean acceptance of unacceptable behaviour but it does mean that we should identify positive traits and reward them. Leading by example would also be a positive strategy George.

I'd say the same about the GAA, which to this day, thrives on it's anti-Britishness.

No, it thrives on its games and the sense of community they engender.

I don't think catholics/nationalists can lay exclusive claim to irish culture anyway. If both sets of people in NI could realise that we do have a shared past, and that irish influences obviously affect Ulster/Northern Irish culture at as well as Scottish and other British influences perhaps that would be a good start. I hark back once again to the original unionists, who I can only assume were as Irish as they were British and vice versa, and proud of both. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Paddy - I'm historically accurate in the time frame I used. So keen were the early Govt to have Irish and Irish only to distance themselves from the Brits that it was proposed by Ernest Blythe that all Civil service documents would be in Irish and Irish alone. The head of the civil service,Joseph Brennan, knocked that on the head by pointing out it would be asking for trouble to have his men signing forms written in a language they didn't understand which might be authorising payments of large sums of money.

There's all sorts of nonsense such as the GAA insistance on using Irish paper and Irish Language to try and off set British influences that permeate the GAA. Even now according to the GAA if you aren't Gaelic you aren't Irish.

"[the GAA] thrives on its games and the sense of community they engender."
I'd be a fool to argue that that was not true. But that alone doesn't persuade me that large numbers of its following are not there simply because it's the good Irish thing to do, as distinct from "soccer" and Rugby which are "Garrison games". Perhaps things are different in Southern Ireland, they could well be for all I know.

Hmmm my spidey sense (no pun intended!) tells me we've strayed a little from bonfires...

"Even now according to the GAA if you aren't Gaelic you aren't Irish." Sounds like a GAA argument for partition to me :D

Even now according to the GAA if you aren't Gaelic you aren't Irish.

Where do get that idea from, Davros?

From the GAA Paddy.

I have a feeling the European, American and Australian parts of the GAA will disagree with you. What aspects of the GAA give you that impression?

I didn't think you would take my word on it , so I have been hunting the reference.

Have you read the GAA Strategic Review ?
Published 2002.

This is a direct Quote, my highlight in bold :

the G.A.A. now provides a sense of national identity for all Irish people, whether at home or overseas.

Now, there's NO other way of reading that than as a claim that if one doesn't accept the GAA package as outlined in the document One is NOT Irish. I find that chauvinistic at best and sinister at worst.

G.A.A.’S AIMS AND ITS ROLE IN IRISH SOCIETY

VISION
4.4 The Gaelic Athletic Association has provided sporting activity for successive generations of Irish people both at home and overseas. For almost one hundred and twenty years, the Association has organised competitions in Hurling and Gaelic Football at various levels. These competitions, on both a national and local basis, have provided satisfaction to the many thousands who have played the games and the thousands more who have played
a role as spectators or administrators. During the course of its development and in the organisation of its fixtures, the Association has succeeded in creating, through the provision of attractive games, a distinct, competitive spirit, which engendered pride in one’s locality. Endeavours on the playing field, whether on behalf of school, club or county, and including both successes
and failures, have created an almost tangible ‘sense of place and tradition’ for virtually every community throughout the country. Success in
providing that sense of both place and identity to local communities throughout the land, has developed to the point where the G.A.A. now provides a sense of national identity for all Irish people, whether at home or overseas. The G.A.A. is now synonymous with ‘community’ and is an integral part of community life in most rural and many urban areas. It is part of the fabric of Irish life.

I've regularly heard Unionist on here argue that they are Irish too and that Irish does not merely mean Nationalist and Gaelic.

"their apporach of trying to ignore the fact that bonfires have been, are and will remain an annual event in the vain hope they will go away doesn't work"

fair_deal, absolute rubbish - making excuses for the vandalism of public property isn't acceptable. You can't say it's understandable that people will resort to vandalism when they can't get their way about a bonfire - it's ridiculous. There's no way you'd make the same argument if it were the chuckies. If we are talking about waste ground that is out of harms way which is properly supervised, my attitude is out of sight out of mind. However these people are wrecking facilities that are used by ordinary people, and I can't believe that the majority of people in those areas condone this. Creating an association between vandalism, drunkenness and anti social behaviour and the positive principles that are supposedly evoked by the 12th doesn't seem like the way forward - or does it ?

As for the chucks reading this, I'm afraid that while the type of people who burn flags (of any type) are certainly inciting hatred, the truth is they have every right to burn whatever flags they wish, it is a matter of free speech, and I would have the same attitude to the burning of the UJ. It would be nicer if they didn't but there you have it.

[though the "hating Ireland is acceptable because of what they did in the past" excuse for this is a hair's breadth away from that often heard justification for loyalist paramilitarism, "well killings are what are to be expected in response to the activities of republicans". Funny the company that people keep. ]

I've regularly heard Unionist on here argue that they are Irish too and that Irish does not merely mean Nationalist and Gaelic.

Well, It's time the GAA took that on board Paddy.

PMcL

Quote 'That is a lie that you will be unable to substantiate with anything i have written on the site.'

Quote 'I look forward to seeing all those sylph like young maidens and those high achievers who take part in this cultural festival. No doubt there will be a surge of pride right across Norn Iron.'

In MY opinion that is a completly sectarian comment since:-

a) it is a Protestant cultural event

b) 'high achievers' when used as you have infers anyone who takes part in such a Protestant event is of less than average achievement (i.e. a thicko).

c) your use of 'sylph like young maidens' infers all the Protestant women taking part are old and fat. (Sexist in the extreme)

If the best contribution you can make is one which is sectarian, sexist and derogatory, then silence in your case would be golden. If I said this about a SF parade it would be equally sectarian and sexist.

Has anyone else an opinion on PMcL's post?

vespasian,

bonfires act as a magnet for a collection of ne'r do wells and spides that disgrace any community. It just so happens that this programme focussed on the sectarian hate fest that occurs around July every year.

I had thought that the nationalist communtiy had rid itself of such tragedies but I know of the display at Albert St last year as well as another in Ballymena and there are probably a few isolated cases elsewhere.
Having seen examples of these bonfires and the type of people they attract I am repulsed that anyone would refer to the people who attend as Catholic working class people celebrating their culture.
It is quite simply drunken, anti social behaviour and to attempt to dress it up as anything other than that is beneath contempt.

To try and pass what occurs off as 'culture' or 'community spirit' as the programme on the BBC did is delusional and ultimately self defeating.

PMCL

Everthing you have said is based on your perception of other peoples culture and is TOTALLY sectarian.

I am sure that everyone who attends such events is not 'a collection of ne'r do wells and spides' (whatever they are)' this is another sectarian generalisation coming from SF who espouse 'parity of esteem'. It is a bit like saying anyone who attends a Sinn Fein Rally is a murderer.

Whether you like it or not many protestants see bonfires and 'the twelfth' as being their culture and they are allowed to define their culture not YOU.

Before you try to blacken my character, I do not go to bonfires or twelfth celebrations but I do recognise their place in Protestant culture just as I recognise Black Parades, St Patrick's day and the 15th August and the GAA as all representing someones culture and I don't attend any of them either.

Like the man said...."nobody likes us and we don't care". They are there and they are not going to go away you know....
The bonfires most certainly are culture. They could well do with alot more organisation and other activitites surrounding the events and most definitely removal of the burning of flags (which can quite easily be replace with the likes of a Lundy effigy similar to "guys" on Guy Fawkes night)

Pat

"Building an Ireland of Equals is all about destroying the sectarianism that some people choose to celebrate."

It is clear from your posts you consider the prod working class to be sectarian so when are the re-education camps for all us working class prods must attend going to open? So we can be reprogrammed to hate ourselves and start playing hurley.

I am able to understand that you are Irish and that you express it in a variety of ways. Why can't you accept that i identify with different identities than you and express it in different forms?

Roger

A slight over-reaction methinks. I agree there are a number of things about traditional bonfires that need to be changed e.g. damage to property but it isn't going to happen overnight.
The situation will not change by communities or public bodies ignoring the problems.

Quite right Alan2.

The bonfires are a legitimate cultural expression. They actually stand for something. So hate them all you want, you hate all things Ulster prod anyway. It just reminds you that this island is not made up of one nation and one culture. That always sticks in the throats of most Nationalists.

The bonfires themselves have been hijacked by drunks and paramilitaries but they were not invented by drunks and paramilitaries. Bonfires have some serious issues attached to them and do create some serious damage. These are not excuses to get rid of them entirely but to change the way they are set up.

They need to become more family-friendly with less drunks and no paramilitary trappings. The OO have already organised a few that meet this criteria, more of them are required. Even the burning of the tricolor should be halted.

Roger

"though the "hating Ireland is acceptable because of what they did in the past" excuse for this is a hair's breadth away from that often heard justification for loyalist paramilitarism,"

I was not using it as an excuse, I was using it as an explanation. This whole Irish thing of "what did we ever do to you" is so nauseating. "What did the ROI gevernment ever do to you?" Try murder, the funding of murderers, the harbouring of murderers.

I am not trying to bring up the past but the only way forward in reconciliation is for both sides to recognise their own misdeeds. I believe the loyalists recognise the hurt they have carried out but clearly the Irish on this site do not recognise why they and the ROI could ever be hated by the loyalist community. They label our genuine problems with the Irish state, that are manifested in less than articulate ways, as nothing more than sectarian bigotry.

From Pat down to lesser shades of green (eg Maca) still believe that the prods and their culture are nothing short of being completely hate-filled.

How can a peace process move on from that?

Beano
"I'd say the same about the GAA, which to this day, thrives on it's anti-Britishness."

Sorry, but I think that is absolute rubbish.
The GAA thrives because the sports are fast exciting competitive games. It's got zip to do with being anti-British.


Davros
"the G.A.A. now provides a sense of national identity for all Irish people, whether at home or overseas.

Now, there's NO other way of reading that than as a claim that if one doesn't accept the GAA package as outlined in the document One is NOT Irish. I find that chauvinistic at best and sinister at worst."

Ah c'mon Dav. I honestly cannot see how you read it like that. What if it does provide a sense of national identity for Irish people, but that says nothing about the thousands of non-Irish people who also enjoy the sports.
The truth of the matter is (and I have personal experience of this) the GAA greatly values it's non-Irish members and there is a great push on (in Europe at least) to recruit as many non-Irish members as possible.

"I've regularly heard Unionist on here argue that they are Irish too and that Irish does not merely mean Nationalist and Gaelic."

Yes I am Irish also. It is part of my idetity, culture and heritage but I will define my own identity not be force fed someone elses definition of Irishness or stand and be told who and what I am.
I am proud of my Ulster roots, my Ulster identity and the various constituent parts of Irishness, Britishness and Ulster-Scots that go to make that identity up.

Two nations
"lesser shades of green (eg Maca) still believe that the prods and their culture are nothing short of being completely hate-filled"

I'm very tempted to tell you to go **** yourself but i'm above that.

Please do highlight where I have ever expressed anything close to "prods and their culture are nothing short of being completely hate-filled". You won't be able to because I never have. Your statement is utter bullshit. An apology is warranted.

The only problem I highlighted here is the burning of my national flag which I take as a direct insult. I believe it is an expression of hatred and YOU yourself have stated clearly that loyalist community hates us (your 9:10am).

I'll wait for that apology...

Ban the bonfires, the only culture in them is simply an act to reinforce a percieved superiority over catholics/nationalists, in the same fashion as the ole lambeg and many but not all parades. Not the mention the environmental effects of burning all that rubbish. If you must insist on having them then can the reinstatement works to public property be taken from the taxes of those who build them and not from mine.
Oh sorry I forgot! Guess most of the people involved dont tend to pay taxes, this is surely benefit fraud of some kind?

Perhaps our Provo-supporting posters on here taking great delight in ripping the back out of the Protestant population of Northern Ireland for engaging in the "sectarian-filled hate-fest" (Pat the Rat's words) during the months of July and August would care to answer a simple question.

Was it sectarian, or indeed hateful for the President of Sinn Fein to stand, not five weeks ago, surrounded by khaki-attired thugs and pay tribute to the "brave IRA volunteers"? Say what you want about the Protestant population of Northern Ireland, but at least a majority of them don't vote for murderers or their proxies!

Maca

Why wouldn't the Unionist community show animousity towards a country that armed and financed the Provisional IRA in the early 1970's?

I've said it before, and I shall say it again: Irish nationalism = cultural fascism.

"just to vent hatred at the Irish state and her people?(most probable)"

You certainly believe that the burning of the tricolor is nothing more than a hate-filled expression. The flag is burnt due to past misdeeds of the Irish state, not because the prods hate for no apparent reasons which is what is implied by your statement.

but I did not mean to offend you Maca. The way I phrase things does not help and I will apologise if it sounded like I was calling you a bigot. I know from experience over the last several months that you not. Apologies.

Ah c'mon Dav. I honestly cannot see how you read it like that. What if it does provide a sense of national identity for Irish people, but that says nothing about the thousands of non-Irish people who also enjoy the sports.
The truth of the matter is (and I have personal experience of this) the GAA greatly values it's non-Irish members and there is a great push on (in Europe at least) to recruit as many non-Irish members as possible.

Maca - if ALL Irish people accept the package then obviously those who don't accept the package aren't Irish. There's no way round that, sorry. I'm not trying to have a go at decent GAA fans and supporters, I'm looking at the GAA as a body.

I've said it before and it's worth repeating - the GAA is many-layered and has many faces. You, maca, are representative of most ordinary GAA people.

However the GAA itself still is political and still is dedicated to a form of cultural supremacy
that has no place in Ireland for most of the unionist community.

The document is worth reading in it's entirity, and try reading it from a non-gael perspective.
You can be charitable and label it chauvinistic
I found it fascinating. It contains the seeds of the GAA's own destruction. The GAA can only work within Ireland. If it becomes International and professional it is doomed. It needs the self-imposed ghettoisation within Ireland to enforce the 'purity' it strives to maintain and expand in Ireland. However it also needs to broaden it's horizons and become professional as it cannot compete with International sports.Once that happens you further alienate the recreational
players as resources have to go to the elite in order to compete.

Cheers.

Davros I agree with most of it until the "seeds of its own destruction" bit. There are plenty of plastic paddies who will be perfectly happy to play up to this purity because it lets them go on believing they are Irish.
I'm not sure the GAA needs to go pro - it seems to be getting by OK on amateur sectarianism.

Beano - people are becoming internationalised and expect a higher and higher quality product. If the GAA remains parochial it will be swamped. It's struggling with the language component of it's identity and the religious component is sliding.
The Political imperative is becoming less and less relevent. The "muscular Christianity" component ?
Long gone.

Two nations
"You certainly believe that the burning of the tricolor is nothing more than a hate-filled expression. The flag is burnt due to past misdeeds of the Irish state, not because the prods hate for no apparent reasons which is what is implied by your statement."

My statement as you can see was simply about the flag burning. Somehow you translated this to "the prods and their culture". I never mentioned prods, loyalists etc, I don't know or care who burns the flag, all I know is that it is done and it is offensive. You yourself said the loyalist community hates us, but yet you're asking me to believe the flag burning is not an expression of that hatred?

Davros
"if ALL Irish people accept the package then obviously those who don't accept the package aren't Irish"

Sorry Dav, I honestly still don't see it.
I don't accept the whole package, does that mean i'm not Irish? Should I take offence?

The GAA is international already Dav. and is thriving abroad.

"You are representative of most ordinary GAA people."

Excuse me, "ordinary"? Moi? I've never been so offended in all my life! ;))

Beano
"I'm not sure the GAA needs to go pro - it seems to be getting by OK on amateur sectarianism."

That doesn't deserve a response.

Dav
"It's struggling with the language component of it's identity and the religious component is sliding. "

Can you expand on this?

vespasian,

'Everthing you have said is based on your perception of other peoples culture and is TOTALLY sectarian.'

not true, to call a hate fest as you see it is not sectarian. As pointed out anyone who attends these events are ne'r do wells and spides. Should it be Springmartin or Albert St.

'Whether you like it or not many protestants see bonfires and 'the twelfth' as being their culture and they are allowed to define their culture not YOU.'

If you choose to call drunken ramblings around a bonfire as culture it seems I have more respect for decent working class protestants than you.

I don't care what you recognise as being cultural to the other community. For instance, very few nationalists recognise the 15th August other than the fact it is the 15th day in a month called August.

fair_deal,

'It is clear from your posts you consider the prod working class to be sectarian so when are the re-education camps for all us working class prods must attend going to open? So we can be reprogrammed to hate ourselves and start playing hurley.'

If you consider what occurred on that BBC programme as anything other than a cause of embarrassment and sadness that is for you. There was nothing cultural about it.
Waffling on about re-education camps blah, blah blah, can't hide the fact that a new generation were being exposed to a life of shallow hopelessness.

'I am able to understand that you are Irish and that you express it in a variety of ways. Why can't you accept that i identify with different identities than you and express it in different forms?'

I do recognise the difference alright. I just cannot understand how anyone wants to illustrate culture through drunken, sectarian hate fests around a bonfire.

Christopher,

Perhaps our Provo-supporting posters on here taking great delight in ripping the back out of the Protestant population of Northern Ireland for engaging in the "sectarian-filled hate-fest" (Pat the Rat's words) during the months of July and August would care to answer a simple question.

Was it sectarian, or indeed hateful for the President of Sinn Fein to stand, not five weeks ago, surrounded by khaki-attired thugs and pay tribute to the "brave IRA volunteers"? Say what you want about the Protestant population of Northern Ireland, but at least a majority of them don't vote for murderers or their proxies!

Pat the Rat, mmmmm is that the best the DUP can churn out these days. No one from within nationalism would try and pass off the appearance of Gerry Adams at a republican commemoration as cultural.
Demonstrations of that type are political in ceremony and context. Not cultural.
However, it is enlightening to hear the 'devil's buttermilk' brigade approve of the drunken excesses at bonfires as culture. Who'd have thought.

I don't accept the whole package, does that mean i'm not Irish? Should I take offence?

I think you have a right and a duty to raise the issue with the GAA Maca.

"It's struggling with the language component of it's identity and the religious component is sliding. "

Can you expand on this?

Sure - as we have discussed, a lot of times the regulations in respect of language are regarded as gesture and ignored.That's not healthy and is at odds with the stated aims of the organisation.

The religious component - The Roman Catholic Church has been a vital component of the GAA from it's inception. Remember the importance of the first 3 Patrons.

Constitutional Politics: C S Parnell
Radical Politics and agrarian reform: M Davitt
The Church : Archbishop Croke

The Church has lost support and a lot of it's respect and authority.

"Protestant, maybe: working, seldom: class, never."

Does anyone else feel that the above comment from McLarnon is deeply sectarian, or I am I, ashe claims, only making it up or telling lies?

"However, it is enlightening to hear the 'devil's buttermilk' brigade approve of the drunken excesses at bonfires as culture. Who'd have thought."

Is it really worth answering that I have to ask?
Alcohol is a modern scourge but history clearly shows that banning things or forcing things does not solve the problem.
It concerns me that some so called socialists seem unable to analyse the working class Loyalist ethos and are totallyunable to see that they are not going to go away. Like the documentary said at the end....we will continue to gain in confidence until one day the peace wall comes down and the two communities can live side by side...but that will only happen after some transformation on both sides (and that does not mean "we become one people" it means we learn to live with our differences). And that means learning to respect out Nationalist neighbours whilst Nationalists must finally accept that there are two communities that are intertwined but distinct and respect those differences.

It's good that people round the world have a demonstration that blind and evil sectarianism isn't just to be found in the protestant community Jacko

Christopher Stalford.

"I've said it before, and I shall say it again: Irish nationalism = cultural fascism."

There's no need to say it again, we already know you say things that don't actually make sense.

"Does anyone else feel that the above comment from McLarnon is deeply sectarian, or I am I, ashe claims, only making it up or telling lies?"

It`s called Sinn Fein socialism. Equality and human rights for all mind.

'Alcohol is a modern scourge but history clearly shows that banning things or forcing things does not solve the problem.'

Dancing around bonfires with the air poisoned by sectarianism, fuelled by that same alcohol is not cultural it is reckless.
I have no understanding or respect for that type of behaviour. If it had to exist at all it was in the Dark Ages.

To hear young men stating that they had nothing to look forward to now for another year was depressing and an indictement of people like Frank Mc Coubrey and the masters of Christopher Stalford who claim to provide these communities with leadership.
Yeah right on, a community really does gain confidence through the bottom of a carry out.

"There was nothing cultural about it."

It was the participation in a traditional practice to mark a date of deep significance to a community. Sounds like a cultural practice to me.

There also wasn't much drunkeness in the film but don't let that get in the way of the rant.

"Protestant, maybe: working, seldom: class, never."

If Prod was replaced with RC and applied to the Belfast St Pat's parade there would have been shouts of sectarianism flying very quickly.

"a new generation were being exposed to a life of shallow hopelessness."

If you think the socio-economic problems shown in the film are restricted to prod areas you are living in a fantasy world.

"sectarian hate fests"

This probably goes to the centre of it all.
1. Any deviation from irishness (as defined by RM) is to be demonised.
2. Any deviation from irishness (as defined by RM) is to be presented as a negative identity.
3. The false assumption that anytime Prods get together for a celebration of whatever form we sit round obsessed trying to work out how we can find more ways of annoying nationalists.

'If Prod was replaced with RC and applied to the Belfast St Pat's parade there would have been shouts of sectarianism flying very quickly.'

read my 7.48 am post again, this time read it carefully. It is clear that my sentiments on the type of people who attend these events crosses the religious divide. Throughout the 1980's bonfires in nationalist areas degenerated into a meeting place for hoods and anti social elements, more intent on drinking and torturing locals than commemorating anything.
Equally few of them were Catholic, fewer still worked and there wasn't an ounce of class among the lot of them.
I just don't hear any nationalists trying to dress those few bonfires that still (shamefully)exist in nationalists areas as 'culture'.

Most nationalists have moved beyond this type of behaviour and except for one or two isolated incidents bonfires are a thing of the past.

Pat the Rat's words


Does this count as man or ball?

So Pat, becuase its "political" it's OK for the bold Gerry to be flanked by khaki-ed up thugs and saluting "brave IRA volunteers", then?

The central issue here is one of tolerance - one persons culture may not be another persons cup of tea, but that does not give the latter the right to deby the formers right to exist. When we enter the realm of defining one culture as superior to the other, we are on very shaky territory.

A refusal (such as that evidenced on this thread) to contenance the existence of a culture other than their own narrowly-defined "Irishness" belies the volk-ish, fascistic overtones which lies at the heart of Irish nationalism.

BNP-types on the mainland hate difference and seek to stamp it out. SF-types in Ireland (Northern and Republic of) pursue the same goal, ergo, SF are the Irish BNP.

Pat can hardly complain when he labelled Jacko "Jackal" Paddy Matthews.

Christopher Stalford

"So Pat, becuase its "political" it's OK for the bold Gerry to be flanked by khaki-ed up thugs and saluting "brave IRA volunteers", then?"

Well, you seem to be a menber of the DUP, and there is plenty of footage down the years of your party leader flanked by khaki-ed up paramilitary thugs.

Your party was organised in the "loyalist workers strike" when your paramilitary enforcer friends murdered workers who broke your strike.

I take that, in your opinion it's only OK for unionists to be prancing about with paramilitary thugs.

Are there any DUP members on the Loyalist Commission anybody?

Excellent post Biffo :)

biffo

In answer to your question - no there are no DUP members on the Loyalist Commission.

Yes, I just checked, I regret giving you the opportunity to wriggle away from addressing my post.

Maybe in future you should check your facts before posting.

"Yeah right on, a community really does gain confidence through the bottom of a carry out."

Obviously Sinn Fein`s much more cultured than that. they sit in a pub and watch people slit each other throat`s instead whilst looking at the bottom of a pint glass.

*anyone who attends these events are ne'r do wells and spides.*

Well, I must have been one of those once, as I certainly joined in building the bonie when I was a child. Haven't been to one in thirty odd years, but I'm sure Pat must have this all worked out for us.

The sad thing is that Pat also gets it right when he talks about shallow hopelessness. Those communities have been left to rot by the parties that purport to represent them. Those parties can fairly be criticised for fiddling while the aspirations of the generations burned before their eyes. And what would Pat do? He would leave it all to someone else, because, in his vision of a future union, people like those we watched on TV last night will not count.

Most of my primary school friends came from Springmartin and Highfield. They were decent people then, and they won't have changed much in the interim.

Christopher,

'So Pat, becuase its "political" it's OK for the bold Gerry to be flanked by khaki-ed up thugs and saluting "brave IRA volunteers", then?'

I didn't say it was OK for Gerry to do anything. I merely point out that nationalists don't try and dress such commemorations up as culture.

The central theme may be tolerance, but these bonfire sites are meeting places of intolerance.

Also I have not tried to defend any view of 'narrowly defined Irishness'.

"The sad thing is that Pat also gets it right when he talks about shallow hopelessness."

Yes. But he seems to think that is something to have a good laugh about. Unionists are light years behind nationalists in terms of community capacity building, and the authorities seem to want to do diddly-squat to change that situation.

Christpher Stalford,

you are indeed a slippery customer. I was checking the facts, that's why I asked the question.

The other facts have long been in the public domain. Your party leader has appeared flanked by paramilitary thugs, your party did organise the loyalist workers strike, the strikers did murder innocent workers going about their daily work.

You remain true to type, you didn't bother commenting on them. I'm really not surprised.

Those communities have been left to rot by the parties that purport to represent them. Those parties can fairly be criticised for fiddling while the aspirations of the generations burned before their eyes.

Good point Alan.

And what would Pat do? He would leave it all to someone else, because, in his vision of a future union, people like those we watched on TV last night will not count.

it's important to remember that while Gerry and co
go on about reaching out to the protestant working class the reality is that their drones show the real attitude towards those people. Some socialists they are.

Turning aside for a brief moment to consider the content of the documentary. I happen to think it showed a lot of what is good about working-class Protestant Belfast - women organising a dinner club for pensioners, line-dnacing classes, country and western nights, and at the centre of it all, the kids mucking in to collect wood for the bonfire.

Pat in his twenty-first century urbanity might choose to sneer at the people involved, but it says more about him and those like him than it does about the folks in Springmartin that they seem to provoke such indignation.

"The other facts have long been in the public domain. Your party leader has appeared flanked by paramilitary thugs, your party did organise the loyalist workers strike, the strikers did murder innocent workers going about their daily work."

I will gladly speak out to condemn the DUP for these goings on. If they want to strike, fair enough, but the intimidation (as far as I know to both sides) was unforgivable.

Regulars should know by now I'm no fan of the DUP, but in their defence, I haven't seen even Paisley sharing a platform with terrorists in some time. (Doesn't stop me thinking he's a bigoted fossil, but that's another issue).

Alan,

'And what would Pat do? He would leave it all to someone else, because, in his vision of a future union, people like those we watched on TV last night will not count.'

Couldn't be further from the truth. I flag up the fact that adults are allowing youngsters to follow that well trodden path that leads to that hopelessness.
I flag up the fact that the current groupings of politicians who purport to represent that community are perpetuating that hopelessness.

I have highlighted the fact that people from the same socio economic background have by and large recognised the problems that arise from bonfire sites and the like.
It was the mushrooming of community groups and the recognition that there had to be something better than bonfires and the entailing anti social behaviour.
It was these groupings that actively championed the cause of further and higher education that led to a concentration on educational attainment in areas of West Belfast that was not mirrored on the other side of the peace line. A fact recognised by some unionist politicians.

First and foremost a community does have to take responsibility for wanting to change.

Is William McCrea still in the DUP?

biffo

"your party did organise the loyalist workers strike"

Along with every other Unionist party in Northern Ireland, and the then legal Ulster Defence Association.

Yes, your right - all the unionist parties and Ulster's one amd only legal terrorist organisation in Northern Ireland.

The whole Battle of the Boyne thing was really a big scrap between the French and the Dutch who wanted to be Kings of England...What the hell has it got to do with us? Why are we fighting about it 300 years later? Yes folks it was 300 years ago - talk about Post Traumatic Stress never knew it could last that long and to people who weren't even there! And the French Army - (they were James's - don't roll your eyes some people might not know!) were not all Catholic and William's army were by no means totally Protestant. So what's all that bonfire and marching crap about these days anyway?

In all seriousness it was a significant event in Irish history that can't be denied but I don't see the value in celebrating it....it was just politics. Neither King cared much for Ireland it was a prawn in their game (yes I'm aware the word is pawn).

Biffo,

It has been put on record by the organisers of the Strike (Glenn Barr) that Paisley tried to unsuccessfully jump on the bandwagon once the Strike had taken hold. Of course he was told where he could go.

There is also the story of him being physically removed from top-of-the-table at one of the Strike meetings, as he of course thought he would be running the show when he joined in.

It is all in a very good docu that was made a number of years ago.

Pat

Bonfires, like murals, are cultural borrwoings from the Prod community so it was easier for nationalists to stop doing what was effectively an adopted practice.

In earlier postings examples were given of where people have managed to address issues around bonfires in the run-up to the Twelfth in working class areas, including one spurned by a nationalist council.

However, if the criticism is to achieve better management fair enough, if the aim is to stop it then it will fail :-).

Am I right in thinking that Paisley was actually in Canada when the strike began?

"Your party leader has appeared flanked by paramilitary thugs, your party did organise the loyalist workers strike, the strikers did murder innocent workers going about their daily work."

No it didnt. The LWS was a Unionist construct not a DUP one. Who was murdered? I see no mention of it in the two articles below.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3706449.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4132623.stm

"Is William McCrea still in the DUP?"

He took to a platform with various people on it.
Is Jeffrey Donaldson on the same platform as Mcguiness flanked by paramilitaries?

Besides all that...so what....that was then this is now...times have changed.

PS

You are not. That was NIO black-propaganda put out to dicredit Paisley - just like the stories about a house in Canada: all lies.

Dav
"The religious component - The Roman Catholic Church has been a vital component of the GAA from it's inception. Remember the importance of the first 3 Patrons."

Hmmmm.
During my time with my home club I never even saw a priest in the club once. They had zero involvement.
There's no doubt there were connections to the church though "vital component" I think is far from the reality. IMHO.


Christopher
"The central issue here is one of tolerance"

There I disagree. While certainly both sides lack tolerance, both sides also need to look at their own culture to see if they are doing anything wrong.
If we had an annual celebration where we carried "I hate Brits" banners for example would you be able to accept that as just part of our culture? I wouldn't expect you to. 'Cos to be honest Chris, that's what it's like when people burn our flag, it may as well be a banner stating "i hate Irish(roi) people".



Lads, there's a shit load of man-playing here. Act your respective ages please! ;)

"If we had an annual celebration where we carried "I hate Brits" banners for example would you be able to accept that as just part of our culture? I wouldn't expect you to."

Many would call that the Easter Rising celebrations......but I see your point and is why I stated that the flag burning is distasteful in my opinion and should be replaced with an effigy of Lundy The Traitor.

Alan2

Yes, I found out that William McCrea is still in the DUP.

'Besides all that...so what....that was then this is now...times have changed.'

The point is that DUP members croak about nationalists voting for 'murderers and their proxies', but retain among their ranks a person who shared a platform, as well you know, with Billy Wright, at a rally in the erstwhile LVF leader's defence.

Times have changed, but as long as William McCrea remains a member of the DUP, few Catholics will take seriously DUP bleating about nationalists voting for murderers in attempt to obtain the moral high ground.

I'm torn Mr. Stalford as whether to accept your word or the owrd of my Irish Politics lecturer!

Alan
"Many would call that the Easter Rising celebrations"

Hmm, except we don't burn your flag at them.
Or if it was ever done there's no excuse it should never happen.

The messages contained on Orange banners do not in any way equate to "I hate Catholics". That is a completely false analogy.

Furthermore, why wouldn't Unionists be hostile to a country that armed and financed the Provisional IRA?

PS

Who is your Irish Politics lecturer? I think I can guess!

It wouldn't be the same genius who devised the "no guns, no government" slogan would it?

Alan2

Several people were murdered by the strikers, you want names I suggest your get your hands on "Lost Lives" ir'a an excellent source.

You are wrong Ian Paisly and the DUP were involved in organising the workers strike, and quite famously so.

fair_deal

"Bonfires, like murals, are cultural borrwoings from the Prod community so it was easier for nationalists to stop doing what was effectively an adopted practice."

Not really, Bonfires in Ireland go back millenia, they are more likely to be a cultural borrowing from the Irish tradition, read about St.Brigid's sacred fire, and the August bonfires in Belfast in the 19 century.

That's the nature of Irish nationalism and British nationalism here in NI, they become even more similar as time goes on. Look at the GFA and the funding for Irish and Ulster Scots.

By the way, all the stuff is well known. You don't have to take my word for it.

Initials PB, he's fairly close to David Trimble I think. Is it the same fellow? Didn't know he was behind the slogans.

Thats the one! Such an impartial academic that I overheard him spinning to a journalist at the Kings Hall last November that the Assembly election result wasn't really a defeat for the Ulster Unionists!

Stalford -

What information do you have to show that the state (the Republic) armed and financed the Provisional IRA?

Furthermore, why wouldn't Unionists be hostile to a country that armed and financed the Provisional IRA?

Are you seriously suggesting that the balance of the actions taken by the government in the Republic over the course of the troubles (or even any given year of your choosing) weighed more in favour of supporting the IRA rather than hindering their efforts?

By your warped logic Unionists should indebted to the state, not burning flags.

Dress it up as you will but the flag burning is naked sectarianism.

Chris
"The messages contained on Orange banners do not in any way equate to "I hate Catholics". That is a completely false analogy."

Who said anything about Orange banners???

"Times have changed, but as long as William McCrea remains a member of the DUP, few Catholics will take seriously DUP bleating about nationalists voting for murderers in attempt to obtain the moral high ground."

To be honest your argument is ridiculous. If people were voting for Billy Wright or John Gray you comparision would be accurate.
However the fact that someone has done evil things in the past should not be a bar in my opinion IF the person has shown genuine change, remorse and repentance.

Ringo

Jack Lynch set aside a considerable amount of money for "relief" for Northern Nationalists as the so-called Troubles were getting underway - i.e. as the IRA escalated its campaign. This money, taken from the state coffers, was used to finance and arm the Provisional IRA at the specific behest of certain senior Fianna Failers, who were more strident in the republicanism than Lynch was (you know who I'm talking about). Whether or not Lynch knew what the cash was being spent on is the subject of dispute, but there is no question in my mind that Haughey knew what he was at.

The Republic of Ireland frequently acted as a safe-haven for on the run terrorists, wanted for some of the most henous crimes in Northern Ireland - extradition attempts were frequently thwarted on spurios grounds by the southern judiciary. Ending this situation was one of Thatcher's main aims in signing the 1985 Agreement. On that score, as on so many, the Anglo-Irish Agreement was a failure.

In more recent times, as the world has become a colder house for terrorists, and out of practical political necessity Fianna Fail (who nearly always constitute the government) may have become more hostile to Sinn Fein, but it was they (FF), more than any others, who lobbied and campaigned on behalf of the RM, before they (the RM) themselves replaced the balaclavas with business suits, to be admitted to the corridors of power. Many Unionists will never forgive Reynlods for that infamous handshake on the steps of Leinster House.

In that context, Unionist hostility to the Republic of Ireland is more than understandable.

In a Northern Ireland context it also needs to be borne in mind that Republicans have laid claim to the Tricolour and made it an anti-Unionist symbol. Perhaps it is as a response to this behaviour that Tricolours end up on bonfires. Personally, I would rather see an effigy of Lundy atop a bonfire rather than any flag, but I understand totally why the Triclour debecks many bonfires.

Ringo

Jack Lynch set aside a considerable amount of money for "relief" for Northern Nationalists as the so-called Troubles were getting underway - i.e. as the IRA escalated its campaign. This money, taken from the state coffers, was used to finance and arm the Provisional IRA at the specific behest of certain senior Fianna Failers, who were more strident in the republicanism than Lynch was (you know who I'm talking about). Whether or not Lynch knew what the cash was being spent on is the subject of dispute, but there is no question in my mind that Haughey knew what he was at.

The Republic of Ireland frequently acted as a safe-haven for on the run terrorists, wanted for some of the most henous crimes in Northern Ireland - extradition attempts were frequently thwarted on spurios grounds by the southern judiciary. Ending this situation was one of Thatcher's main aims in signing the 1985 Agreement. On that score, as on so many, the Anglo-Irish Agreement was a failure.

In more recent times, as the world has become a colder house for terrorists, and out of practical political necessity Fianna Fail (who nearly always constitute the government) may have become more hostile to Sinn Fein, but it was they (FF), more than any others, who lobbied and campaigned on behalf of the RM, before they (the RM) themselves replaced the balaclavas with business suits, to be admitted to the corridors of power. Many Unionists will never forgive Reynolds for that infamous handshake on the steps of Leinster House.

In that context, Unionist hostility to the Republic of Ireland is more than understandable.

In a Northern Ireland context it also needs to be borne in mind that Republicans have laid claim to the Tricolour and made it an anti-Unionist symbol. Perhaps it is as a response to this behaviour that Tricolours end up on bonfires. Personally, I would rather see an effigy of Lundy atop a bonfire rather than any flag, but I understand totally why the Triclour debecks many bonfires.

Ringo

Jack Lynch set aside a considerable amount of money for "relief" for Northern Nationalists as the so-called Troubles were getting underway - i.e. as the IRA escalated its campaign. This money, taken from the state coffers, was used to finance and arm the Provisional IRA at the specific behest of certain senior Fianna Failers, who were more strident in the republicanism than Lynch was (you know who I'm talking about). Whether or not Lynch knew what the cash was being spent on is the subject of dispute, but there is no question in my mind that Haughey knew what he was at.

The Republic of Ireland frequently acted as a safe-haven for on the run terrorists, wanted for some of the most henous crimes in Northern Ireland - extradition attempts were frequently thwarted on spurios grounds by the southern judiciary. Ending this situation was one of Thatcher's main aims in signing the 1985 Agreement. On that score, as on so many, the Anglo-Irish Agreement was a failure.

In more recent times, as the world has become a colder house for terrorists, and out of practical political necessity Fianna Fail (who nearly always constitute the government) may have become more hostile to Sinn Fein, but it was they (FF), more than any others, who lobbied and campaigned on behalf of the RM, before they (the RM) themselves replaced the balaclavas with business suits, to be admitted to the corridors of power. Many Unionists will never forgive Reynolds for that infamous handshake on the steps of Leinster House.

In that context, Unionist hostility to the Republic of Ireland is more than understandable.

In a Northern Ireland context it also needs to be borne in mind that Republicans have laid claim to the Tricolour and made it an anti-Unionist symbol. Perhaps it is as a response to this behaviour that Tricolours end up on bonfires. Personally, I would rather see an effigy of Lundy atop a bonfire rather than any flag, but I understand totally why the Triclour debecks many bonfires.

Pat can hardly complain when he labelled Jacko "Jackal" Paddy Matthews.

Fair enough, Davros, but "man not ball" still applies to both cases.

"You are wrong Ian Paisly and the DUP were involved in organising the workers strike, and quite famously so."

They were involved yes. I read your initial statement differently. It was however mostly organised by the then legal UDA.
The UUP and Church leaders currently sit with paramilitaries on the Loyalist Commission. Not blaming them as I think it is doing some good but the important thing is that people reject violence from whatever side.

Alan2

'If people were voting for Billy Wright or John Gray you comparision would be accurate.'

Spare me the sophistry. William McCrea had no trouble sharing a platform with Wright in defence of a guy who was the leader of a group that had murdered many Catholics. But the DUP think he's worth voting for. Ask yourself what message his continued membership of the DUP sends out to Catholics.

'However the fact that someone has done evil things in the past should not be a bar in my opinion IF the person has shown genuine change, remorse and repentance.'

Oh? And has William McCrea shown genuine change, remorse and repentance in his attitude and actions towards the families of those innocent Catholics murdered by the LVF? If he has, then fair enough, but nobody told me.

Chris
"In that context, Unionist hostility to the Republic of Ireland is more than understandable."

From our perspective many Unionists don't exactly have clean hands so the hostility comes off as hypocritical. It might be diffeent if Unionism never had any ties to loyalist terrorism.

the United Kingdom is a greater haven and sponsor of Terror than Ireland could ever be.

In July 1998, a former British MI5 officer, David Shayler, revealed that, in February 1996, British security services financed and supported a London-based Islamic terrorist group, in an attempted assassination against Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi. The action, Shayler charged, in an interview with the British Daily Mail, was sanctioned by then-Foreign Secretary Malcolm Rifkind. The incident described by Shayler did, in fact, occur. Although Qaddafi escaped without injury, the bomb, planted along a road where the Libyan leader was travelling, killed several innocent bystanders. In an Aug. 5, 1998 interview with BBC, Shayler charged, "We paid £100,000 to carry out the murder of a foreign head of state. That is apart from the fact that the money was used to kill innocent people, because the bomb exploded at the wrong time. In fact, this is hideous funding of international terrorism." According to Shayler's BBC interview, MI6 provided the funds to an Arab agent inside Libya, with instructions to carry out the attack.

On Jan. 25, 1997, Tory Member of Parliament Nigel Waterson introduced legislation to ban foreign terrorists from operating on British soil. His "Conspiracy and Incitement Bill," according to his press release, would have for the first time banned British residents from plotting and conducting terrorist operations overseas. Waterson proposed the bill in the aftermath of a scandal over Britain providing safe haven for Saudi terrorist Mohammed al-Massari, who claimed credit for the bombing of U.S. military sites in Saudi Arabia in June 1996

On Nov. 17, 1997, the Gamaa al-Islamiya (Islamic Group) carried out a massacre of tourists in Luxor, Egypt, in which 62 people were killed. Since 1992, terrorist attacks by the Islamic Group have claimed at least 92 lives. Yet, the leaders of the organization have been provided with political asylum in Britain, and repeated efforts by the Egyptian government to have them extradited back to Egypt have met with stern rebuffs by Tory and Labour governments alike.

Shortly before the Luxor massacre, on Oct. 8, 1997, the U.S. State Department, in compliance with the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1996, released a list of 30 Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs), banned from operating on U.S. soil.
Of the 30 groups named, six maintain headquarters in Britain. They are: the Islamic Group (Egypt), Al-Jihad (Egypt), Hamas (Israel, Palestinian Authority), Armed Islamic Group (Algeria, France), Kurdish Workers Party (Turkey), and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (Sri Lanka).

http://mathaba.net/data/sis/mi6-terrorism.html

Now before you want to criticise my country for aiding terrorists,take a look at your own ''country'' Visit that website and hang your head in shame for the disgraceful deeds of your fellow countrymen before you make insulting remarks about my country.

Apart from the flag burning (one kid called it Catholic flag),it looked like any Halloween bonfire here in the South. Neighbours who object would be behind closed doors with their children worrying about their houses catching fire and trying to get to sleep that night. The only people out would be the anti-social types and drunks.
Lets be honest, its the flag burning we found offensive not the sentiment!

Alan2

In addition - I have no problem with McCrea standing for election, or continuing as a member of the DUP. But it is hypocrisy for DUP members to come out with stuff like this:

'Say what you want about the Protestant population of Northern Ireland, but at least a majority of them don't vote for murderers or their proxies!'

and then ignore the connection between William McCrea and Billy Wright, as if victims of the LVF did not matter.

C. Stalford

"Many Unionists will never forgive Reynlods for that infamous handshake on the steps of Leinster House.

In that context, Unionist hostility to the Republic of Ireland is more than understandable."

In that context hatred of the your party is also understandable. I remember seeing Ian Paisly on the news shaking hands with Jim Craig. Jim Craig was the big UDA boss who was extorting money from the building site my father was working on at that time.

DUPlicitous

CavanMan

Offensive comments? Perhaps a wee bit too close to the truth.

I have met Willie McRea and he is no terrorist.
In fact the IRA came to shoot him years ago except some one tipped off the police because apparently McRea had helped out a family member. In fact you can hear his testimony on the Sermon Audio (www.sermonaudio.com) site I think.

"And has William McCrea shown genuine change, remorse and repentance in his attitude and actions towards the families of those innocent Catholics murdered by the LVF?"

Did he condone such action in the first place? Who else was on this platform, what was the event for and what did the individuals say? Was there any paramilitary activity at the event or was it a platform from speeches?

"Several people were murdered by the strikers, you want names I suggest your get your hands on "Lost Lives" ir'a an excellent source."

It's quite correct to say that people were murdered during the strike- for instance two brothers in a public house near Ballymena which was smashed up by members of the UVF who were in a convoy which seemed to be interested in acquiring as much drink as they could. It doesn't automatically follow that this evil act was authorised or sanctioned by any of the strike organisers. We'll never know who decided to order that crime- probably it was the usual spur of the moment Loyalist thuggery which we are all familiar with . We do know that there was obviously intimidation, because people like Bob Pagels have admitted it. How much the politicians knew about this is still hotly disputed. Some posters will say that leaders who create the conditions which allow such events to occur have a responsibility and that is certainly a tenable argument

What is interesting, though, is that there was also widespread and genuine support from the middle classes, Church elders,etc- the sort of person who would obviously have been appalled by crimes such as the murders I mention. I can't imagine that any serious political leader of Unionism in 1974 would have condoned that double murder or would not have been disgusted by it

I see an eagerness to blame the actions of a few on all who supported the strike , and I'm not sure that can be justified, but if it can be, then the converse is true-namely that any one who supports SF/IRA must take responsibility for that organisation's crimes.

And of course the well documented role of key members in the Irish Government in 1970 in arming the PIRA cannot now be seriously denied by anyone. And I'm equally sure that Lynch, Haughey etc didn't want the sectarian killing s carried out by the PIRA which emerged from the financing and gunrunning of the PIRA. But....

The old "If you lie down with dogs you can't complain if you get fleas" argument can't be onesided. And with our greater knowledge of how these things can have tragic consequences than was the case in 1970 or 1974, it becomes much harder to excuse the blind eyes being turned to the Sinn Fein leadership's actions post 1998 inn Dublin, and middle class nationalist homes in NI.

"From our perspective many Unionists don't exactly have clean hands so the hostility comes off as hypocritical."

From your persepctive I would assume then that many Sinners don't exactly have clean hands so the hostility to the British must also come off as hypocritical.

CavanMan

As a respublican, I can see why you would think an attempt to assasinate Ghadaffi would be disgraceful.

Beano
"From your persepctive I would assume then that many Sinners don't exactly have clean hands so the hostility to the British must also come off as hypocritical."

Of course. Many shinners have filthy hands, as do many Unionists.