I dont see why there is any significance attached to SF members being present in the bar, at the time of a row they weren't involved in, which escaleted to an attack which resulted in murder.

If for example, I was in a bar and a fight broke out which later resulted in a murder outside the bar, am I - or those I work with or represent, in any way responsible?

Redeye,
Responsibility extends beyond personal responsibility for a crime committed. We have a social responsibility that means that if we are able to assist in the solving of a crime then we should offer to help. Anything we may or may not have seen could later turn out to be important evidence. Giving a statement to a solicitor, six weeks after the fact, is the best example of "too little, too late" that I have ever heard.

It is time to turn this thing around, time for everyone in the bar to step up to the mark. It is time for the Republican movement to state that the only acceptable course of action is to make a statement to the Ombudsman and to give that evidence in court.

It is time that we heard that 70 odd statements were today given to the Ombudsman. What greater shame can anyone have, but that they knew and said nothing - six weeks later.

Redeye, if there's a serious assault or other crime and you were present but do not report what you saw, yes it is a serious problem.

AFAIK leaving the scene of a crime is an offense in most countries.

Let's keep it civil please. BG

'Suddenly, there seems to be a lot of things you Provos can't see.'

Are the moderators not supposed to keep an eye on gable wall comments.

The only thing blinder and deafer than the Provo apoligists on this thread are the even dumber words they use to defend the barbarity of the McCartney murder.
You did it, you tried to cover it up, and you will do everything in your (weakening) power to wriggle out of its consequences.
A terrible beauty has been born, boyos, the world has caught you on.

Sean Hayes, former S Belfast councillor has also admitted being in the pub.

I don't think Sinners being in the Pub is a huge surprise is it. Hadn't they all just come back from a rally in Derry about Bloody Sunday?!
And as anpther poster said being there doesn't make them guilty or mean they were involved.

Not going to the Police/Ombudman or whatever right away as opposed to 6 weeks later is a problem and rather than try to explain their way out of it perhaps Sinn Fein should shock the world and hold it's hands up and say "Sorry". I know naive and foolish of me.

To clarify this issue: it would be astonishing if there weren't SF members in Magennis's at just about any given moment.

The issue here is that some must have seen the lead-up to the attack and the attack itself.

SF claims to be supporting the McCartneys' drive for justice. Therefore, the question is, what are its members who saw it happen going to do with the information they have, and perhaps even more relevantly what have they done hitherto with it?

Tully,

on all the threads since the murder not one person has tried to defend the barbarity of the murder. You are in effect lying.

Pat,

I presume you got that comment from the organ grinder.
You can spin and wriggle as much as you like but whilst those men are free you and those who are like you are still defending a barbaric act.
Make our day, give them up to the law. Until you do the McCartney sisters are never going to go away.

Tully:
Who on this thread to you accuse when you say "You did it, you tried to cover it up, and you will do everything in your (weakening) power to wriggle out of its consequences."

As far as I can see nobody - NOBODY - has tried to defend the murder of Robert McCartney.

Your concern for justice for the McCartney sisters is shared by everyone posting here - many even are motivated by thoughts of actual justice and cosure for the family rather than trying to vilefy republicans.

Tully

If it's not in Pat's gift to give anyone up, quit trolling!

No the issue is that the media are putting a slant on the whole incident. From listening to some news reports SKY Ireland especially- you would believe that the killing took place inside the bar in front of 70 people.

IJP - I'm sure some people saw the attack itself - if what is alleged happened then there were about 5/6 people who had a lot of drink taken involved in a night time melee in a street outside the bar [was this directly outside or a distance away from the bar? can someone clarify] - in all probability 2 or 3 people at most including the knife wielder himself may have witnessed the knife attack.

The only way that the McCartney family will get justice is if these people hand themselves in. And then we learn today as reported on the BBC that the PSNI may question one of the main suspects at a later date.

It looks like the PSNI investigation is being allowed to fester for political reasons.

Come off it Gonzo, don't be such a ghit. I know it is not in Pat's power to give them up, he is just another poor dupe. Your posts in the past have been much better than that. It's Pat's organ grinders I am after.
Don't you people in Ulster realise what the people in the real world think of you. The people who killed Robert McCartney should be in gaol, if this crime had happened in any other part of the civilized world then that is where they would be today. A bar full of cowards all suddenly became blind and all you lot can whitter on about are points of order and other such idiocies.
The title of this thread is really rather apt. You are a bunch of monkeys who for too many years have been following the orders of your organ grinders.
You might have become used to it, and therefore accept it as normal, but decent people in the rest of the world do not put up with the things that happen in Northern Ireland.
You have two choices, lift the scales from your eyes or just get used to the peanuts.

Tully

My posts aim - usually - to open debate, not close it down.

You may now step down from your high horse now, as our "idiocies" (assuming there is such a word) have maintained a degree of civility on this board that doesn't exist in most NI boards.

You may say you wish "decent people" establish a "normal" society here like the rest of the "civilized world"... yet you are the one deliberately trolling.

I assume you can see the contradiction?

Anyway, back to the thread.

You don't like it up you do you Gonzo.
Sorry about my English spelling but I don't use English so much these days, your arguement is weak if you have to resort to such petty criticisims.
High horse? Not at all, the one you ride is just very low.
The scales are still there.
Enjoy your peanuts.

And anyway what do you mean "back to the thread."
I think I have mentioned monkeys in almost every posting so far.

Tully, we try to stick to a simple rule here, no insults. It's not a hard rule to stick to. Insults only spoil your arguments and the thread.

Tully,

While coming at the story from different angles the site has been unanimous that the murder of Robert Mc Cartney was a barbaric and horrific crime. To suggest otherwise is a tad dishonest. I can honestly say that if I had been in Magenniss's and it was therefore in my gift to turn people over it would be a done deal by now.

As for my organ grinder, to paraphrase the old WW2 song, we've been together 24 years and it aint been a day too long. we'll that's her view anyway.

Sorry Maca. No more monkey jokes. From me you will hear no more.
I bow out of this debate. My time line is different from yours and it is time for me to retire.
That Gonzo guy is just a little bit pompous though, don't you think? Is he English?

Gonzo's a good man Tully.

How do you know what my time line is? ;)

Tully

You think I was criticising your spelling?!

Oh dear...

And "pompous"... moi?

Time for my bed too, I think!

Gonzo pompous?

he just about supported me during the blogsphere crime of the century, ie my red card. For that I have decided to say the rosary for his best intentions throughout Lent.

Damn papists ;)

LOL!

I'm the pompous one, if you don't mind... I'm even half-English...

on all the threads since the murder not one person has tried to defend the barbarity of the murder. You are in effect lying.

Posted by: Pat Mc Larnon

Pat, it has been described as a "bar room brawl" on a number of threads, also by leading Shinners, not a case of defending murder, but down playing its barbarity.

"You may now step down from your high horse now, as our "idiocies" (assuming there is such a word) have maintained a degree of civility on this board that doesn't exist in most NI boards."

Idiocies

Sorry ;)

One question that has escaped the notice of this thread so far... is the McCartney statement re Groogan that "I believe it was her public duty - she should have gone straight to the police with this." indicative of a wider nationalist acceptance that the PSNI are more or less legitimate and a recognition that there really are efforts being made to accommodate the nationalist community? I certainly don't know any catholics* who would entertain the idea that the vigilantes are the answer to justice problems in Northern Ireland.

* Of course the catholics I know aren't the type to choke on uttering the dreaded name "Northern Ireland" so obviously not completely representative

Haven't got them talked round to 'Londonderry' just yet though ;)