Some desperation from Seamus Mallon:

Irish Examiner

Well, at last we are starting to get to the real issues here; the sisters can take advice from the hallowed Martin McGuinness, but not from the big bogeyman Anthony McIntyre...

How long will it be before we are told that the securocrats are exploiting the situation to damage Sinn Fein?

Mallon's not desperate. He is, however, deeply unhappy as he spends his last weeks in Westminster. And it's hard to blame him.

Everyone (from Hume to Adams to Reynolds) thought/hoped that if Sinn Fein were given substantially everything it said it wanted, they would reciprocate by going democratic. The hope was misplaced. Instead they went mafia.

And all of us who gave them the benefit of the doubt have been burned badly, because as it turned out, they were about power, not peace. Those who gave them a chance soonest have lost the most (John Hume comes to mind).

Back to the McCartneys, they wouldn't be overwhelmed with grief, bought, cowed, co-opted through the ArdFheis spectale, or finally intimidated. And they damn sure won't be quiet - standing in May keeps the story alive for much, much longer than McGuinness or Adams would like. So now they have to be discredited and dismissed.

All part and parcel of the "lets-destroy-the-credibility-of-the-McCartneys" campaign.
Talkback has been overrun for a week or so with the "now don't get me wrong" brigade.
From what I can see, this family doesn't need advice from anyone.

Completely unrelated to MMcG / Anthony Mac.

The US trip of the McCartney sisters has in itself damaged their credibility among many in the nationalist community - not only among the SF ultra-faithful, but among those who don't hold the US administration in very high esteem when it comes to human rights (maybe george will offer to elctrocute/lethally inject the guys that did it). Its seen as an unsuitable place to go to try and seek justice - particularly in light of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, the death sentence, institutionalised corruption etc.

'Its seen as an unsuitable place to go to try and seek justice - particularly in light of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, the death sentence, institutionalised corruption etc.'

Most people of all persuasions in Ireland couldn't care less about any of this. They are interested in what happens in Ireland first and foremost not anywhere else. We have enough of terrorist killings, ' death sentences' and corruption in Ireland not to point the finger anywhere else.

I beg to differ vespasian - especially not in the highly politicised north where there has always been an interest in foreign affairs. Maybe you couldn't care less about any of this but don't extend that to a blanket generalisation of the entire country.

It also seems a little trite to write off state sanctioned executions in the united states with a comparison to Ireland. The situations are hardly comparable.
As far as I am aware neither Irish nor British courts can pass a death sentence - which is just as well considering the number of judicial cock-ups we've experienced.

Come on Circles - it's hilariously blatent now Gerry has been snubbed that the RM suddenly "notices" what the USA has been upto since WWII....
Gosh, the sisters are meeting the nasty warmongering Bush ? And if the policy was reversed and Gerry got a phone call yesterday inviting him today he would have declined ? Yeah, right. He'd have been there, grin, grin. You have really blown it when Teddy Kennedy can cold-shoulder you !

Davros:
Thats completely right - SFs hypocrisy regarding "secretly" US "imperialist" foreign policy at home and sucking up to whatever president was on duty is a disgrace. No bad thing that they (all the parties) have to take a year out from watching George and pals get Oirish for the day. Maybe that'll wise them up a little. Playing the original plastic paddy to the police union and so on is ridiculous.

However your comment regarding the PRM has absolutely nothing to do with my point that many nationalist people just don't see what a righteous search for justice has to do with George Bush and the Neo-con gang.
The simplistic "with us or against us", black or white world view pushed by the President isn't so easily swallowed by people who have lived most of their lives trying to determine between shades of grey. He's just not the kind of guy you want on your side.

sorry it should read - "secretly" condemning US "imperialist" foreign policy .....

Circle - Bush as an individual may not be the kind of guy etc, but the Office of the President of the United States is different.The Government of the USA is different. The American people still pay attention - losing the backing/ good will of the people of the USA and many of the diaspora is a huge lick in the nuts for Gerry and co. I get the impression that Gerry is scrabbling round the people ( Noraid types) thathe has been cold-shouldering for years ...How are the mighty fallen !

whoops --- "kick" in the nuts ....

Thats as maybe Davros.

What I'm talking about is the perception among many people in the nationalist community, not the PRM, that George Bush is a cowboy butcher who follows the law only as long as he makes it. He's not seen as an impartial, credible personality when it comes to human rights.
Kofi Annan - yes.
George Bush - no.

And in this regard, meeting him and associating with his administartion has damaged the McCartney's credibility. Their strength has been that they are ordinary women that people can identify with - but meeting Bush overstretches that empathy a bit.

Circles take it on the chin mate you'll feel better. Its a big disappointment that Gerry has been snubbed.
I am starting to worry that Develan is right when he says:
"So now they have to be discredited and dismissed.".
I am 100% certain that if SF/IRA wanted it to be so the men responsible would make confessions to the PSNI. Its disgusting that they can break wee kidddies legs but not achieve a simple thing like producing the murderers

And in this regard, meeting him and associating with his administartion has damaged the McCartney's credibility.

I might have some sympathy for that if these people had shown disapproval over the past decade when it was Gerry Pressing Imperial American Flesh. But as it didn't do SF any harm, I think you are clutching at straws here Circles.

Davros, who do you mean by "these people" - nationalists who don't like Bush?
I'm still talking about public perception. For some reason Clinton (who was not much cleaner than Bush, if at all) was not only tolerated, but liked - internationally. I can't explain it, but being seen with Clinton was not necessarily a bad thing on the publicity scale. With Bush its not the same.

Take what on the chin spirit?

From what I see here some people are taking the McCartney visit to the states as "another nail in the SF coffin. Feel free to do that if you want.

I was actually looking at it from the point of view of many nationalists, NOT SF, who are more than a little miffed by looking for justice from George Bush. Of course now maybe both of you, Davros and Spirit, want to interpret this as some kind of defense of SF - fire away.

But thats a blatant misreading and representation not only of my posts, but also of the McCartneys campaign.

Davros, who do you mean by "these people" - nationalists who don't like Bush?

Aye, the same ones who as you point out don't like Bush but didn't let the hypocrisy of Gerry pressing the flesh with him stop increasing numbers of them voting Sinn Féin.

Circles re your Bush comments
vespasian says it better than me:
"Most people of all persuasions in Ireland couldn't care less about any of this"
When I say take it on the chin I mean accept
that SF are in a stew right now.
Can you see the fantastic PR for SF if they got the killers to own up, this is what people want.
I don't care if SF do that for selfish reasons.
Christ if SF can deliver decommisioning how hard is it to get a few villaneous toe-rags into the Dock. I want them to get on with that, and to stop whinging and smearing and blaming.
They have to stop digging.
Give em enough rope and they'll......

So who does pay the piper ?

'Can you see the fantastic PR for SF if they got the killers to own up, this is what people want.'

SF go along to the killers and ask them to own up and the killers say 'no'. What do SF do in those circumstances?

Pat when I was a student I camped ouside the offices of Canterbury County Council, with many others to protest against council evictions of single mothers, this was back in the Thatcher days when this group were villified.
We got on the local news/TV and it helped.
You have to be imaginative here

s-l,

if you are faced with people who are now interested in their own self preservation and have set their face against handing themselves in then I think there is anything SF can do.

Pat
Where there's a will there's a way

The behaviour of the Republican movement, both McGuiness's comments above and Adams' comments about the family being used, show they are only interested in individual families campaign for justice if republicanism can contain political capital or gain from it.

The McCartney family have done nothing different in their campaign than others from a nationalist background e.g. Bloody Sunday, Finucanes.

So why are republicans try to put a sinsieter interpreatation on it? Simply because in this case it is republicans at fault.

Gerry Adams was intending to go to the US and try and rebuild some bridges. The McCartneys went there as a spoiler and are saying no! No bridges rebuilt until my brother gets justice. Once again the SF spin machine has hit the buffers.

As to McGuinness attempt to smear the Family with a link to McIntyre, what a joke, keep digging Martin. As far as SF is concerned this is one man who should be kept off the air, he has been a disaster of late, he acts as if he is talking to the RUC, when in reality it his own constituency he has to convince. IM sure, for many people who did not know Martin that well, his recent interviews have been an eye opener. Where is Mary Lou when she is needed? Or do they not trust her on this.

Only yesterday on slugger I said that one of the jobs of Republican intellectuals, is to snap at the heals of the SF leadership, Anthony is doing just fine, it seems for a change it is Mr McGuinness with freshly bitten ankles.

Just a quick point on punishment shootings by PIRA, how can they now go out and shoot some kid for joy riding or petty drug dealing, when they have refused to physically discipline their own members for murdering, etc a SF voter? Come on boys, stand down, you know it makes sense.

I'll admit in the media seem to be taking massive hits but on the ground many people are asking what else can they do.

I posed these questions on another thread to illustrate how this campaign is being used to attack SF. If the IRA were to disband tonight put all weapons beyond use with photographs and Robert Mc Cartneys killers were not in jail would it hold up the process? No Would Gerry Adams be at the Whotehouse? Yes Would Gerry Kelly be Justoce Minister? yes

Gerry Kelly as Justice Minister? Whatever about the McCartney issue, people are fooling themselves.

There is no chance of a locally elected administration here, including Sinn Fein ministers, for years. There is no cross community support or even acquiesence for that now, so Sinn Fein can forget about power here, and in the South, for a long, long time.

Circles

You have got too closely involved in politics, most people in Ireland, outside those directly involved beyond voting, are not international in character.

They might give some thought to the border and its implications but that is the height of their internationalism, but law, education, hospitals and taxes are just as important.