Give him another spade with any luck he will bury himself!

He made the same "comment" about being very careful on BBC Radio Ulster's Five Live tonight.

When it comes to promoting a cause Martin should be taking, not giving advice!

Remember the Harry Enfield sketch, "Women - Know Your Place!"

The Shinners are looking for any excuse to start undermining the McCartney family.
Dictators don't like being dictated to.
This talk of "political manipulation" is only the beginning.

To ask the Mc Cartneys to be careful at the present time is prudent advice whatever way you look at it.

In terms of the advice, let's not look for malice where it may not be present.

Or else what now? Tired of civil rights already?

I think anyone who was giving advice to the family with their best interests at heart would advise them not to run. They would lose heavily and that would undermine their legitimate and just cause.

To me it reads as a threat.

I'm not at all sure the McCartneys would lose heavily. Quite the contrary. However, their cause is better served outside the immediate political arena.

That is not the issue here, though. The issue is that McGuinness is in no position to be making apparently threatening comments.

He's a terrorist. I would have thought he was ideally placed to make threatening comments.

He's a terrorist. I would have thought he was ideally placed to make threatening comments.

I have to agree with Davros.

Mc Guinness isn't as stupid as you suggest - what possible benefit would it be to him and the republican cause to threaten the Mc Cartneys?

You do your own assessment of the situation a great disservice by spinning a sow's ear out of a silk purse.

McGuinness has offered them good political advice. Others may be offering them bad advice and I hope they reject it.

If I was a West Belfast voter I would be voting for Gerry Adams and I would hate that vote to be taken as a vote against or a lack of support for the McCartney family. But that's the way it would be made to look to the anti-Sinn Fein media.

I think McGuiness is perceptive enough to see that if they stand as political candidates their transformation and moulding by the media and political forces opposed to SF, from courageous grass-roots voices of righteous outrage, to being perceived by more nationalists as political axe-grinders would be complete.

This process is sadly well under way already as they fly to see "Dubya", the forces who are pointing them in this direction do not really care about the conviction of Robert McCartney's killers, they are primarily interested in making political hay.

In fact does anyone really believe that successful convictions would benefit any political party OTHER than Sinn Fein?

levitas,

Doesn't it depend on who is convicted?

It matters that the guilty are convicted and that the Mc Cartney family get justice.

But it's odd that the family's seeking to find it in the arms of someone with tens of thousands of deaths on his hands.

Once they put themselves into the political arena they will of course be open to questioning rather than simply asking questions themselves.

Where did they get the money for their America trip would be a starting point?

It ill behoves any shinner to be asking where people got their money from.
Not the Northern Bank anyway, which is more than can be said about the provisionals.

The family revealed at the weekend that they had received donations from other political parties. they did not specify which ones.

Jacko

Does your contribution to every thread amount to no more than sniping at each contributor with whose views you disagree?

Once they put themselves into the political arena they will of course be open to questioning rather than simply asking questions themselves.

All they have to do in that case is make up some spurious guff about having a code of honour pat....
Martin McGuinness can hardly object to that tactic, can he?

It seems that any SF member at the minute is damned if they do and damned if they don't say anything about basically anything with selective quoting taken out of context being a favourite pass-time of most.
Even if they were to distance themselves from the IRA, who as a result were to publicly disarm and disband, the whole thing would be taken as a cynical exercise in media manipulation. If they don't they are seen as being in cahoots with "the godfathers of the IRA".

Sure you wouldn't want to have that job at all. I'd rather join the DUP, now that they look reasonable (to a blind bat)

I viewed the threat from McGuinness as a sign that SF/IRA are worried about electoral damage if the McCartney sisters run.

While running in elections is not necessarily a great idea it does have its advantages. The story has been kept in the media by the drip-drip of information entering the public arena (because of the botched and ongoing cover-up) but can this continue?

Whereas running in elections would ensure the campaign keeps in a prominent position in the media for the next six-eight weeks. It will also maintain the pressure on the Republican movement during the campaign so they cannot try to brush aside the issue and try to make the election about other issues.

McGuinness was on RTE Morning Ireland, said Press Association had "disappointed" him by reporting that some people interpreted his remarks as a threat. Morning Ireland just played the BBC clip in question, then asked MM:
You're the spokesman of a party that this week (!) we learn most of the people who were in Maeginnis' bar and saw Robert McCartney murdered were members of. Surely for you to now tell the McCartney sisters to "be very careful" in this context could by some be said to constitute a threat?

I just wonder what in the long term this offers the electorate.

And where will the cash come from?

If I were asked I'd advise them against it too - and thats no threat, its just common sense. It could of course be said by some that I would be threatening them - but some would say if I spoke to them I was using them for my own gain, if I mentioned them I was making some kind of capital out of their plight, if I visited them I was intimidating them etc.
But thats probably just because I was born in west Belfast.

Now if I were born in London, or Bangor or elsewhere that would probably all be seen as concern for the family with no other (political) agenda or interest up my sleeve.

'we learn most of the people who were in Maeginnis' bar and saw Robert McCartney murdered were members of.'

I thought the murder happened outside of the bar. Does anyone seriously believe that all 70 of the bars clientele that night actually saw the murder take place?

RD,

where are people getting the information that most people in the bar were SF members? Even the Mc Cartneys aren't claiming that. They also aren't claiming that he was murdered inside the bar, even the PSNI are saying it took part outside the bar. So it is best to nail lies at source before they take on the aura of fact.

Has anyone posting on this subject ever been in Magenniss's bar? It is a horseshoe shaped bar with a dividing wall in the room effectively making it two separate rooms. It is quite feasible to be in one part of the bar and not see anything on the other side.

Davros,

you seem to miss the point entirely. If they are accepting advice from people (one of whom is an opponent of the GFA) and they are accepting donations from other political parties they will in fact be breaking up the consensus that they have managed to establish. Especially in the scenario where they stand for elections and the people who are giving them donations stand aside and give them a free run. They run the risk of being party political thus dammaging their own campaign.

Jacko,

stop trolling and try to say something relevant.

Levitas

The following happened inside the bar:
1. A man had his throat cut.
2. Immediately after this, a group of men armed themselves with rods and a knive from the kitchen and walked out of the bar.
3. Shortly after people arrive to wipe down the bar and instruct people that they didn't see anything.

Not a usual night out on the town.

I have already asked this question and no one has given me any type of answer: has Brendan Devine (who was with Robert Mc Cartney when Robert was killed outside the pub), has he made a full and truthful statement to the PSNI and if he has ( and has named names) why has no charges been brought by the PSNI? The PSNI are playing politics with this case.

Surely a major point that is being overlooked here was McGuinness' comments concerning the PSNI investigation.

Surely it is now inconceivable that Mr Devine has not made a statement and named names in that statement. If he has then why are the PSNI not arresting those named as surely eye witness evidence is admisable in court. Indeed if it turns out that Mr Devine has made a statement and the PSNI hasn't responded then maybe the McCartney's should be taking their case to Knock and not Washington.

If he hasn't maybe the family would be better placed demanding to know why not.

As to the PSNI "arranging to interview" suspects maybe they don't view this is an important enough investigation to raid houses or break down doors as they have in the past. The longer this goes on the stranger it becomes.

fair_deal

"Not a usual night out on the town."

Not if you're a civilised human being: however remember these are Provos we're talking about. Strutting around and threatening/intimidating/beating up and even murdering people probably is a usual night on the town for these gangsters.

Turning aside o the issue of McGuinness telling the sisters to "be careful". There is only one way in which this comment can be seriously or honestly interpreted - as a threat. SF/IRA realise that if Paula McCartney runs in Pottinger she could well capture the seat currently held by Joe the Builder. This is what is motivating the actions of Sinn Fein - electoral fright, nothing more, nothing less.

As for whether or not its the right course of action to take: what greater message could the people of Short Strand send to their Sinn Fein/IRA overlords than to elect the sister of one of their victims?

you seem to miss the point entirely

The point pat? I might be missing the spin you want put on this , but it's the IRA and SF leadership with it's blind faithful who are out of step with everybody else.

According to Martin McGuinness, on RTE Morning Ireland, one of the chief suspects for the McCartney murder voluntarily went to the PSNI yesterday to make a statement. He was told to go away and come back in a few days. MM also named two SF people who gave their names and addresses to the PSNI on the night of the murder. They have yet to be contacted by the PSNI. When one of the McCartney sisters was asked, earlier on the same show, if she still had faith in the PSNI investigation she replied "well we have to, what choice do we have?" Not a ringing endorsement.

barney

Sinn Fein tells lies, dog bites man. It aint rocket science.

Christopher Stalford - either you have a very limited (and patronising) view of the people of Short Strand borne from never actually having been there and reading too much British press, or you have been there and walked about with your eyes and ears closed. Phrases such as overlords are completely inappropriate.

Judging from the Meath results at the weekend SF have actually little to fear electorally. Thier core vote is safe and increasing.

And the murderers of Robert McCartney are scumbags - not because some of them were in the IRA but simply because they are scumbags.

And the murderers of Robert McCartney are scumbags - not because some of them were in the IRA but simply because they are scumbags.

The problem is that these scumbags ARE being protected by the big-wigs in the IRA and SF. Just as the scumbags who killed Garda McCabe were protected.

Circles.

I actually know Short Strand fairly well: my family having lived in Cluan Place for 3-4 years when I was a youngster. There's no questioning where the natural political alegiance of the residents of the area lies i.e. with Sinn Fein.

However, I think that in these extraordinary circumstances, in this *locality*, Paula McCartney would be well-placed to attract sufficient votes to threaten for the seat currently held by Joe O'Donnell.

BTW, being a member of the IRA doesn't make you a scumbag, it makes you the degenerate, depraved scum of the earth!

Apart from urging them to hand themselves over to a police force who are apparently less than interested in their evidence (which many have already done), what would you suggest they do Davros - shoot them?

That would be your humble opinion Christopher.

I'd say all soldiers in general are depraved given the fact that their job is to kill - most usually the innocent.

But the murderers of Robert McCartney were not soldiers - they were scumbags.

Circles

"who are apparently less than interested in their evidence" - according to that paragon of moral virtue Martin McGuinness!

Once again - thats your opinion Christopher - not an absolute truth (as you might believe).

Davros,

give us YOUR evidence that the people who killed Mc Cartney are being protected. Not your belief or what you heard.

Circles

"who are apparently less than interested in their evidence" - according to that paragon of moral virtue Martin McGuinness!

Christopher,

welcome back, you seemed to have gone missing after your overt support for Billy Wright registered.

what would you suggest they do Davros

I suggest they quit protecting them. Simple as that.

Why don't SF or P O'Neill for starters name names, and not just the 3 chosen to be fall guys? They were not shy about naming that "securocrat" were they ? Or are we into a similar scenario to what was happening behind the scenes with the Castlerea five ? They might have interesting stories to tell ?

If they are serious how about a statement urging by name the dozen miscreants to confess ?

Once again - thats your opinion Christopher - not an absolute truth (as you might believe).

And do you know the "absolute truth" about this matter? Of course not. Believe it or not absolute truth does always emanate from the pronouncements Connolly House or from the pages of Provo Pravda (AP/RN).

"thats your opinion"

I thought that was the point of Slugger - a forum for *opinions* - clearly I was mistaken.

Pat

Totally untrue. I did not/do not support any terrorist. Mischief making by an out and out Ulster Unionist-supporter, in a nationalist newspaper doesn't alter that fact.

Now how about addressing the issue of Sinn Feins Chief Negotiater issuing threats to the family of a murdered man?

After you give me your evidence that they aren't pat. There's a choice : the word of the McCartneys or the word of McGuinness and his cronies. I know which ones I believe. Why don't McGuinness and the IRA name names ? They haven't been shy about naming names in the past. And as they have admitted that those involved are dirtbags, it can hardly be their 'Code of Honour' that's in the way.

Davros

Absolutely spot on!

I accept your disclaimer Christopher, maybe not support but a bending of the rules re guilt that is evident on this thread but are not used when discussing Willie Mc Crea associate Mr Wright. On the Mc Guinness statement I don't accept it was a threat, my reasons for doing so are set out in my 9.55am post .

Davros,

'After you give me your evidence that they aren't pat.'

You made the initial claim of protection Davros, now if you want to get into a childish you first routine, i'll leave you to play by yourself.
Obviously you haven't read the papers as I believe the names of the three people dismissed by them IRA are readily available and in the hands of the PSNI, who seem not to want to interview one of them, probably best to wait until everyone returns from the USA.

Davros, have you lost the run of yourself? The whole point of this process should be to ensure that the murderers of Robert McCartney are before a court and convicted.

Firstly it is clear that Republicans are not protecting the murderers of Robert McCartney. Having asked, urged and called on people to make statements, having welcomed the McCartney sisters to the Ard Fheis, and having repeatedly endorsed their campaign I don't know what else Republicans can do.

Secondly, just stop and think about what you are proposing. Firstly if SF or the IRA named names in a public statement carried by the media, there goes any possibility of a fair trial. Well done. And as for naming names it seems the PSNI has the names but is unwilling to act.

Indeed, the longer the chief suspects remain at large the greater the liklihood that people will start to wonder whether the PSNI are protecting the murderers.

The fact that political parties (which ones, I wonder?) gave money to the McCartney's to travel to America smacks of nothing but political manipulation.

The PSNI through its handling of the McCartney killing 'investigation' and its probe into the disappearance of Lisa Dorrian has proved itself to be a completely political force. The RUC is back under a new name - I'm sure Christopher and co will be delighted.

Not alone are they politically driven but they're also incompetent into the bargain.

Indeed, the longer the chief suspects remain at large the greater the liklihood that people will start to wonder whether the PSNI are protecting the murderers.

Oh God, DT..... so now you're suggesting that the PSNI are protecting IRA men. Another day in Upsidedownyland.

How would a statement reading
"We in SF would urge A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K and L who were present in the bar to contact the police" prejudice any trial ?

It's a straight choice - the family say they are being protected, MM and others in SF say they are not.

Track record : MM and those others have been caught telling lies in the past.

I know who I believe.

What I am amazed at and cannot fathom is how news reports in the establishment media - the BBC and the (disappointing) newly tabloidised Irish News are saying that detectives will interview one of the main suspects in the killing at a 'later date'.

Is it normal police practice (and I don't consider the PSNI a 'normal' police force but for the sake of argument) for statements regarding future plans to interview identified suspects to be issued to the press to enable these suspects to make arrangements to be elsewhere?

Ringo,

Its not as if this accusation was never made before. Let me think, didn't Scap apparently run free within the IRA with the protection of the security forces, killing people at their direction and at the IRA's direction. So of course how dare anyone suggest the security forces, repackaged or not, might behave in a less than honourable manner.

None, of this, however, explains the at best incompetent and at worst, politically motivated mishandling of this case.

If everyone including the PSNI have the names, and if Mr Devine has made a statement naming names then why are they not in jail? If you have an explanation for this inaction and incompetence I look forward to hearing it.

Derry Terry

"Having asked, urged and called on people to make statements, having welcomed the McCartney sisters to the Ard Fheis, and having repeatedly endorsed their campaign I don't know what else Republicans can do."

Would Sinn Fein have done any of these things had the McCartney family silently disappeared into the background like the families of so many other murdered by the Ra?

PR stunts DT for the press. The family tell a different story. Who has the better track record in respect of being truthful - the RM or The family ?
Remember the promises made to Frank Hegarty ? I'll bet people scared to talk remember what happened when he accepted assurances.

Your failure to respond speaks volumes. Had the McCartney's done what so many victims families in Provo-controlled areas do - keep their heads down and say nothing about the fate of their loved one - Sinn Fein wouldn't give a toss about them or their grief.

Adams, McGuinness and co. have been forced into these half-hearted measures, which merely serves to expose the duplicity of their position. Still, as long they do enough to get Teddy Kennedy back on board, that'll be OK!

Pathetic.

Davros

How could a statement reading "We in SF would urge everyone who has any information concerning the murder of Robert McCartney, who were present in the bar or outside the bar, to contact what they consider to be an appropriate authority and to do everything within their power to help the McCartney family achieve truth and justice" not be sufficient for you? Or have they already made this statement?

You may well know who you believe. You likely knew that before this discussion.

However, and this is a big but, if the PSNI already have the names is this really about getting the murderers arrested and convicted or is it political policing? If Mr Devine has named names and he is likely to be the only eyewitness to do so why have arrests and charges not happened?

SF listing all 70 people who were said to be in the bar will not alter this fact.

Derry Terry

Would Sinn Fein have done any of these things had the McCartney family silently disappeared into the background like the families of so many other murdered by the Ra?

An answer please?

Frank Hegarty had assurances DT and look what happened to him.

Henry

I don't recall the McCartneys asking Mr McGuinness for his advice.

I'll offer him some though - shut it.

CS, sorry for not responding on demand. Maybe you should turn over the egg timer every time you post. In reponse SF have done these things and they were the right things to do. You would nearly think you would prefer if they hadn't done these things.

Davros, your attitude seems shockingly similar. For my part i think Republicans have done everything they can.

The family have set their hopes on securing convictions. That is not within SF's power to deliver.

More worryingly, it also seems to be beyond either the power or the inclination of the PSNI to deliver.

Isn't it amazing how the Provo-supporters on this thread have suddenly been struck dumb?

I repeat for the third time:Would Sinn Fein have done any of these things had the McCartney family silently disappeared into the background like the families of so many others murdered by the Ra?

Derry Terry/Pat/Henry - an answer would be appreciated.

DT

You aren't answering the question: would they have done them, had the McCartneys remained silent?

A fact recognised by the Mc Cartneys (it is best to deal with their view) rather than partisan posters is that they need the support of SF and the broader republican constituency to help solve this case.
If they are seen to be backed up financially by other political parties and by individuals hostile to SF then they are quite obviously putting themselves on a collision course with people who have erstwhile supported their endeavours.
Is this the start of their campaign beginning to falter? If so is it not best to get the other politicos to back off?

CS- that nothing was done for weeks until SF was put under pressure answers your question.

DT - yep, the RM has done everything it can to shield the murderers. The SF leadership has been given enough rope and has hung itself. The genie is out of the bottle now. All the twaddle about the IRA being unable to decommission because it needed weapons to 'protect' Catholic families in places like short strand has been shown to be a lie.

Christopher and Davros I wonder can you tell me just how many names of Loyalist terrorist have the DUP and UUP handed over to a police force that they recognise? They live in these areas and know who is involved in loyalist organisations but their quench for the law to be abided runs a bit thirsty when it comes to putting loyalist in prison. The earlier poster was correct the PSNI/RUC have all the witnesses they need in the surviving victims how many line ups have been called? How many names have been named by these victims? The whole affair has been turned into a recognition of the PSNI/RUC political melee. It isn't republicans job to convict these killers it's the PSNI/RUC if they can't make a case against those who the IRA have named now then any future conviction is getting further and further away.

Christopher,

if you have a question to put to me diectly then do so. Please don't expect me to answer under 'Provo-supporter'. It is trolling, invites an equalling withering riposte and drags the thread off argument.

CS,

To their credit the McCartney's did not remain silent and Republicans have done these things, which were the right things to do. They get no credit from me for doing them, but they did do them so you need to deal with that. Crystal balls and what might have beens are all very interesting but lets deal with the situation as it exists, not as you might wish it to be.

Pat

"A fact recognised by the McCartneys (it is best to deal with their view) rather than partisan posters is that they need the support of SF and the broader republican constituency to help solve this case."

1. As you raise the matter of partisan posters, could you provide a quote from the McCartney's substatntiating that please?

2. Is SF/IRA's support for a campaign for justice conditional on a person not using the electoral process to highlight their campaign?

They certainly did not mind the Anti-H-Block group using the electoral process to highlight the hunger strike and the demands of republican prisoners.

If everyone including the PSNI have the names, and if Mr Devine has made a statement naming names then why are they not in jail? If you have an explanation for this inaction and incompetence I look forward to hearing it.

Stalford

Answer please ?

Christopher and Davros I wonder can you tell me just how many names of Loyalist terrorist have the DUP and UUP handed over to a police force that they recognise?

Completely irrelevent to SF and the IRA actions in this case. We have two SF candidates and one ex-councillor in the bar that night.

fair_deal,

As for point 1. i'm not going to even bother as you obviously haven't a clue what is going on in this case.

Point 2. Is open to exploitation by other parties and individuals (evidence is starting to emerge of this). The message therefore gets lost as the very people who you have sought support off by default become your political opponents.

Your point about the H Block campaign is historically accurate though.

fair_deal:
Where did you get your second point from?
(2. Is SF/IRA's support for a campaign for justice conditional on a person not using the electoral process to highlight their campaign?) Is that a unique interpretation of Martin McGuinness's statement - or has Hugh Orde seen through all the jiggery pokery once more to give us the definitive reading?

As far as I know SF have not openly opposed a candidature of any of the McCartney sisters - nor is that even an issue. The issue is much more the politicking now going on around this murder.

"If everyone including the PSNI have the names"

Thats what SF/IRA are claiming. How many times do you have to be told? We don't believe a word Martin McGuinness says!

Circles

"As far as I know SF have not openly opposed a candidature of any of the McCartney sisters - nor is that even an issue."

Perhaps as a measure of their unending support for the McCartneys SF/IRA will withdraw and allow Paula McCartney a clear run in Pottinger? Somehow I doubt it

"A fact recognised by the Mc Cartneys (it is best to deal with their view) rather than partisan posters is that they need the support of SF and the broader republican constituency to help solve this case."
Why, is it within the remit of SF to solve this case? And if so, why haven't they. No, what they need is ordinary men and women to tell the truth regardless of political allegiance.

Pat

You raised the issue of partisanship therefore I am simply holding you to your own standard.

I'll simply take it that you cannot provide a quote to support your interpretation of the McCartney family's position.

As i understand the McCartney's position they want the help of everyone in their campaign especially the 70 people in the bar on that night and to make th statements to the PSNI or Police Ombudsman.

Circles

McGuiness's statement followed press claims that the McCartneys will run in the upcoming elections.

His reference to "into the world of party political politics" seems a reference to elections. Others in this thread have reached a similar conclusion e.g. henry 94, levitas, IJP etc

If everyone including the PSNI have the names, and if Mr Devine has made a statement naming names then why are they not in jail? If you have an explanation for this inaction and incompetence I look forward to hearing it.

Stalford

Answer please ?

Stalford

Do you need help with a few clues ?

fair_deal:
I still would not read McGuiness's statement of opposition to a candidature. He said in the scotsman article "They need to be very careful...To step over that line, which is a very important line, into the world of party political politics, can do a huge disservice to their campaign.
In fact, it can dismay and disillusion an awful lot of people, tens of thousands of people who support them in their just demands.”

I don't see how this can be read as either a threat or SF opposition to a candidature.

fair_deal and Seamusg,

if you are unaware of the calls by the family to SF and the wider republican movement IN PARTICULAR for help in this case then i'm afraid there is nothing I can do for you.

Has Brendan Devine named names? I thought he couldn't remember what happened as a result of the beating he tool?

"Surely it is now inconceivable that Mr Devine has not made a statement and named names in that statement. If he has then why are the PSNI not arresting those named as surely eye witness evidence is admisable in court."

One witness does not a case make. It has already been stated that the initial 12 arrested refused to answer questions and I would think submissions made to a solicitor are not legally admissible to a court of law. Interviews and statements must be recorded and signed by Police Officers and the person giving the statement. If the only thing thy have is the statement of Mr Devine then they do not have enough evidence to prosecute.

Shay Paul

The key part of your statement above is "if". If Sinn Fein are telling the truth, if statements have been given etc.

If you are asking me to accept the word of Sinn Fein, I'm afraid you'll be waiting a long time.

You can see where the Shinners are trying to take this, it's all the fault of the police, that's why there hav'nt been any convictions, in fact if the police had been outside the bar, or better still inside,the whole sorry mess wouldn't have happened

'If the only thing thy have is the statement of Mr Devine then they do not have enough evidence to prosecute.'

Didn't stop them remanding and jailing people on supergrass evidence but no matter.

Other problems might count against the Devine evidence. He is already a convicted Post Office van robber and is at this time awaiting sentence. Also today he was further remanded on a wounding with a knife charge that occurred 16 months ago.

Any jury considering his evidence might dismiss it on the grounds of his worthless character.

If you are asking me to accept the word of Sinn Fein, I'm afraid you'll be waiting a long time.

Substantial numbers of SF supporters don't accept the word of Adams and McGuinness LOL

So why do they vote for them Davros if they don't believe them?

(If that was a joke, sorry, I didn't get it - maybe I've lived in Germany too long)

And I think we're getting to that situation again - some of us won't believe SF, some of us won't believe the RUC/PSNI, some of us won't believe anybody and some will fall for anything.

Gerry Adams bent over backwards to get the McCartneys into the ard fheis. Perhaps that might not be seen as party political by some, but others would disagree.

So why do they vote for them Davros if they don't believe them?

Because there's a lot more to SF than Adams and McGuinness. That's what people vote for I suspect.

"Other problems might count against the Devine evidence. He is already a convicted Post Office van robber and is at this time awaiting sentence. Also today he was further remanded on a wounding with a knife charge that occurred 16 months ago."

Judging from his co-accused, the world is indeed a small place.

Davros:
You have a very good point there. There is a indeed a great deal more to SF than GA and MMcG - although they are, contrary to your claim, still seen as being credible (at least by the SF voters I know - and even many non-SF voters I know have a great deal of time and respect for GA, seeing him as being genuine in his efforts in the peace process)

Most republicans I know who don't accept GA's or MMcG's word would be hardliner continuity sympathisers, who generally do not have two brain cells to rub together and lack any basic political analysis of the north.

Dec

'Judging from his co-accused, the world is indeed a small place.'

Pardon my ignorance - who is his co-accused?

According to the BBC, Hugh Patrick McCormick, 41, of Stanfield Street, Belfast.

Dec

Thanks. Pardon my ignorance once more - who dat?

Slackjaw

Perhaps I was being too cryptic but I believe he is the brother of the man who has been widely named in the media as the actual killer of Robert McCartney.

Dec

Ta once more - that is very interesting. Small world indeed.

Just an ignorant Irish Republican living across the pond under Dubya's rule here, but, if SF knows or can find out who the "Rogue" little men are. Cough them up and then MMcG's confusingly "benign/threatening" comments wouldn't even be needed. "In house" justice does not justice make. A man got cut open and his life taken. No matter which side you are on.....a price must be paid. To defend otherwise says that what you are supporting is a system of "no law", "no justice" and "no integrity". To struggle in the name of "justice", yet not to show it in every act you commit, every move you make, every wrong you try to right, does but one thing. It undermines "every" thing you do and in the end makes you exactly the person, system or government you are trying to fight........

Is it naive to suggest that the McCartney campaign attempt to get everyone at the bar that night to turn up to a meeting in city hall or something to discuss the matter?

GRIN....well, i think everyone but the "rogue little men" might be willing to do that.....LOL

"Didn't stop them remanding and jailing people on supergrass evidence but no matter."

That is ever so slightly different just like the word of a Garda can get you jail for membership of the IRA.

I haven't read that they are still in jail, are they? That bar just have been the size of a football field for all of them not to have seen anything.......LOL

Where has the suggestion arose that it is only SF that are saying the names of those responsible are knowm The McCartney's have said they know the names of those responsible, Mr Devine obviously knows the names of those involved and by this stage surely the PSNI know the names of those involved.

So if Mr Devine has identified those responsible, and he is clearly an eye witness, why are they not in jail?

> Martin McGuinness challenges Orde over handling of McCartney investigation

If MMcG is worried about their image.......taking some initiative of his own and naming who is at fault would surely turn the tables. That way he makes the PSNI look foolish if they are waiting to take action and makes the SF look a little more reputable or should i say "integral"? If "blaming" each other is the "common thread" between the parties. Stand up and take a stance and to hell with the blame game.

The PSNI\RUC still remains a political force, and is intent in using the death of Robert McCartney to damage Sinn Fein.

"anti-Sinn Fein media"

Henry,

You couldn't be talking about the Daily Ireland - could you?

Our free press don't believe in censorship or bias, they state true and relevant news to the people of the world.

Sorry if the truth hurts, but you should face up to reality!

"The PSNI\RUC still remains a political force, and is intent in using the death of Robert McCartney to damage Sinn Fein."

Oh really? Interesting ... and what world are you living in?

I thought that the McCartney family where making an issue of it? The PSNI are just doing their job, like on many other occassions and that is to bring those responsible to justice.

Sinn Fein have done plenty of moaning about Pat Finucane and achieving justice for his family. Bunch of hypocrites.

They dont want justice when its them who are guilty.

The IRA still remains a political and terrorist force after calling a "ceasefire" over 10 yrs ago. The McCartney murder proves this, as with all the other crimes IRA/SF have been involved in recently - Makro, Northern Bank, Gallagers etc, etc.

And loyalists are just as bad, before you start accusing me of all sorts of things.

The media often present unbalanced, and slanted accounts. The McCartney case has clearly shown this. Pertinent facts are clearly omitted, and credence is given to rumours and inuendo, which do not have any facts or evidence to back them up.

To say:

"Our free press don't believe in censorship or bias, they state true and relevant news to the people of the world."

This is clearly naive, which planet do you live on?

Pat McLarnon

'If the only thing thy have is the statement of Mr Devine then they do not have enough evidence to prosecute.'

Didn't stop them remanding and jailing people on supergrass evidence but no matter.

The supergrass evidence was eventually thrown out as unreliable, so it would seem your comment is irrelevant.

"So if Mr Devine has identified those responsible, and he is clearly an eye witness, why are they not in jail?"

Erm you generally need more than one witness to arrest and convict someone as it is only there word against the other persons.

Paddy Canuck

In the interests of free speech could you please outline in the case of Robert McCartney's murder which:
"Pertinent facts are clearly omitted..."
by the media?

*their

Alan2,

Are you saying therefore that in the absence of confessions by the murderers a murder conviction is highly unlikely?

If so how do we pursue justice for the McCartney family if the criminal justice system looks to be incapable of delivering convictions, which is clearly what they want and deserve?

If MMg is so concerned about the way in which the PSNI conduct business, why does he not, as an elected MP for NornIron choose to sit on the policing board. Otherwise his comments are just sheer hypocracy.
Care to answer PC?

Dec,

you're spoiling the fun with the other posters. It's great to have them come on line and waffle their little heads off as if they were there on thr night.
Don't be telling the mob too much they'll only go away..

Spirit Level,

Maybe its because he's concerned about the way that the PSNI conduct business that he won't endorse them at this stage.

Of course if you are telling us that those on the Policing Board have the power to sort out the PSNI then maybe they'll demand to know if Mr Devine has made a statement naming names, if anyone else has done likewise and if it is common practice in a murder investigation to tell one of the chief suspects "You're all right we'll get back to you later", at the same time as we're led to believe they told a potential witness she was leaving the scene of a crime without taking her name?

Then again, if you're happy with the way the PSNI are conducting this investigation you do right to tell McGuinness to keep his criticisms to himself, even if those criticisms are becoming increasingly common.

They did not report the fact that Jock Davison had been stabbed and left the scene to go to hospital, until the IRA released a statement saying such, and until Davisons interview with Daily Ireland.

They created the perception that the murder happened inside or just outside the bar, and that up to 20 people were involved, this was not the case, and the media were aware that the murder involved a small number of people (4), some distance from the bar.

They did not report that Brendan Devine was a hood with past form as a knifeman until the last couple of days.

They did not and have not reported the McCormick connection posted by Dec.

They omit to inform people that the taxi driver that drove groogan was the partner of Catherine McCartney.

All relevant facts that they omitt, in their haste to paint a picture of the incident, which portrays the republican movement in the most negative light.

The fact is that this incident was not as simple as it has been portrayed. It was an ugly incident and the murder of Robert McCartney was brutal and should never have happened. But the reporting of the incident has been selective, and deliberatley so.

The abscence of any critique of the PSNI\RUC investigation of this crime, is also indicative of the partisan nature of the media, which for many years refused to countenance the notion that collusion existed, whilst they portray as fact the least bit of inuendo about the IRA.

And as I have posted on many occassions, I support the McCartney familys quest for justice, and I deplore the horrible murder of Robert.

Unfortunatley, the quest for justice is becoming mutated into a witchhunt against Sinn Fein.

1. Have any reporters actually looked into SF claims that names have been given to PSNI/RUC? It's an important issue, and I can't believe this has not been subjected to proper scrutiny.

2. If SF has not given the names, then they are reneging on their recent statements that seemed in good faith. This would be a disgrace, and I believe they deserve to lose support.

3. If SF has given the names, and there has been no action, then it becomes very hard to see how the PSNI/RUC is not being used in a political manner. This would be a return to the bad old days.

I also find it hard to figure the media out on this one. There seems to be a disconnection between the media feeding frenzy and those who vote for SF as evidenced by the Meath election. If, as seems to be the case, the number of SF voters has gone up, then I'm not sure what's being gained. It would seem to actually be counterproductive if the media seeks to harm SF.

Finally, can anyone tell me the purpose of the McCartney sisters handing over a dossier on the murder to Bush? What do they honestly expect him to do? It would seem to serve no other purpose than to create political damage.

DT PC Fair points, if I may press you though:
How would you like to see policing evolve in nationalist areas?
Would you accept the republic's gardai being more involved?
Presumably you do not wish the IRA to be the unaccountable police force in these areas?
How are things ever going to move forward in the long-run if the intimidation continues?
By that I mean if both SF and the IRA have expressly said that people are not to be afraid of coming forward, why is it that not one person has been able to feel safe enough to do so?
RSVP

SL - Many people have come forward, apparently too many fo the RUC, the are turning suspects away... Are they looking for their overtime back?

I want a non sectarian representative, and non political police service.

Surely George Bush is not the right person for the Mc Cartney sisters to see. I reckon his only advice will be the same as the IRA -shoot the ones who done it!. After all when he was governor of Texas did'nt he use his "eye for an eye" policy on death row prisoners

Any jury considering his evidence might dismiss it on the grounds of his (Devine) worthless character.

Posted by: Pat Mc Larnon

Pat who are you to judge a persons worth, certainly those that cut his throat thought him worthless

Ales s,

I stated that other events MIGHT count against his evidence.

Those events are the fact that in Dec 2003 he was charged with attempted murder using a knife. He was subsequently granted bail (unusual for such a serious offence). Less than three months later he staged an armed robbery on a post office van. He was charged and yet again granted bail (more unusual considering he was already out on bail).

Last month he pleaded guilty to the armed robbery charge and is now awaiting sentence. Today he was further remanded on bail on the knife wounding charge (it seems the charge of attempted murder has been dropped to malicious wounding and grevious bodily harm).

It MAY be that come the time of any Mc Cartney trial he will have further convictions. So as I was assessing any jury might decide he is a person of pretty worthless character.

In that scenario it is a fair assumption to make.

No comments from the usual about the assurances given to Frank Hegarty ?

Paddy, I'm a bit unclear about where the murder took place. McCartney's body was found on Cromac Street which as you say is not outside the bar but a short distance from it. The trouble I'm having with that is that Cromac Street is quite a busy main road (4 lanes) and there would have been a fair amount of traffic at the time the murder took place. I don't think anyone would try to commit a murder out in the open like that. It's a main route into the city centre and the police or anyone else could have driven past.

I'd thought that the murder had taken place in the side street (I can't remember the name of it right now but it runs between the pub and St George's Market - irritatingly it is not marked on any o the online maps) beside the pub's service entrance.

Pat

Are you trying to label Devine as a criminal or a tout, because the effect you're trying to create is just the same? Many people seem to know what Devine is like already, but it makes you wonder why an IRA leader's brother was hanging out with him.

Davros,

I know nothing about Frank Hegarty, other than the usual gossip, and inuendo.

What else do you know? If you have any information, or evidence I suggest you go to whoever you think are the appropriate authorities.

In other words, put up or shut up....

Belfast Gonzo
Of course Devine is a Criminal thats common knowledge & a knife wielding one at that & may be on the road to becoming a Tout ... for all we know , considering the charges, bail applications etc ...

but it makes you wonder why an IRA leader's brother was hanging out with him.

Who is this IRA leader you are speaking of ?

I meant 'member', as in McCormick, rather than 'leader'.

Of course, the poster above could be wrong about his family relations, so I welcome correction or clarification.

Whats your point Gonzo?

Are you suggesting the media should "go after" Republicans because of what their relations do or who they are?

No, not at all. You seem to have formed a habit out of misinterpreting my comments.

I did not misinterpret anything, I asked you a question.

You said it "makes you wonder", I was trying to figure out what your point was. Maybe you should make the point you were wondering about, then people would not have to guess...

Gonzo,

i'm not labelling Devine anything ,it was his own behaviour and the view of the court that labelled him a criminal.
Let's just say this is the dance of the seven veils and its only just started.

P-C: Frank Hegarty received the same sort of assurances that all would be well from the RM as are being given to any witnesses who choose to co-operate with the Police in the McCartney Murder.
He was slaughtered.

If one of the McCartney sisters did run in Belfast would the unionists and the SDLP step aside.

Would Unionists seek an assurance that she would take the oath to the queen if elected?

They would hardly step aside in seats they could win so we would really be talking about West Belfast only.

I think she would lose in a landslide but having thrown shapes about running failing to run may do the damage anyway so it's a tough call for them.

Pat

You seem to keep hinting at something, but I know you really want to tell me.

Paddy Canuck

Thanks for the response apologies for the tardiness of my reply.

As to your reply from reading a range of the press since the incident I was aware of:
1. The stabbing of a man and him going to the hospital i heard a while back - I learnt his name in the Daily Ireland article.
2. As regards the numbers the media has reported both the familiy's and police's claims about how many were involved ie 20 involved. They also reported the results of the IRA investigation ie 4 involved in the attack.
3. Brendan Devine's past - I read about his past in the media.
4. Didn't know about the connection between Devine and McCormick until today.
5. Picked up from the media about the taxi drivers relationship with the McCartney family.

I accept that not all media outlets covered all of the above but some did (beyond the republican minded press). On the bit I didn't know, as far as I'm concerned Brendan Devine can be the lowest of the low but its is irrelevant to the murder of Robert McCartney.

Gonzo, lol

Why do people talk about a jury trial? if anyone does end up on trial for the death of R Mc Cartney. they will in up in front of one judge(its called a Diplock court) sitting without a jury and believe me as one who passed through a Diplock court, lack of evidence never stopped a judge covicting people.

Raymond Kelly, Ian Bolger and Anthony O'Leary were today found guilty by a jury of violent disorder in connection with a row in a pub in New Ross nearly two years ago after which Mr Forsmark, a Swedish street vendor, died. Judge Pat McCartan tonight gave each a three-year suspended jail sentence.

I'm still wondering where is the righteous indignation about this pub brawl in the south of ireland ? This one went throught the justice system and the murderers got off.

How many people die each year in Ireland in pub brawls and why has this one been allowed to highjack the peace process ?

paddyjoe

Why do people talk about a jury trial? if anyone does end up on trial for the death of R Mc Cartney. they will in up in front of one judge(its called a Diplock court) sitting without a jury

How do you know?

and believe me as one who passed through a Diplock court, lack of evidence never stopped a judge covicting people.

Really? That's interesting. Tell us about it. How is the appeal going?

Incidentally, did you ever stop to think why Diplock courts had to be introduced?

Henry94

Do you have information that the McCartneys are planning to stand for Parliament in West Belfast?

Surely, if they do stand, it'll be in Pottinger for Belfast City Council?

How many people die each year in Ireland in pub brawls and why has this one been allowed to highjack the peace process ?

At the risk of stealing Sybil Fawlty's specialised subject, I'd say what makes the McCartney killing different is the parties alledged to be involved.

That said, it's also somewhat humorous to see a middle-class media and swathes of the middle-class public bending over to listen to people that wouldn't want to live next door to. If the McCartney's were from Dublin, I doubt they'd be in the White House.

I wholehearetedly agree with your remarks on the disgraceful lack of concern at the circumstances surrounding the killing of Forsmark. It does smack of the "Ah sure, he was only a foreigner." His misfortune is that he can't easily be converted into political capital.

How many people die each year in Ireland in pub brawls and why has this one been allowed to highjack the peace process ?

Because it is patently obvious that one of the parties to the 'peace process' isn't committed to 'peace'!

In the Republic of Ireland, or any other civilized society, people provide evidence to the police who charge the accused who are tried before a court. The police is accountable to a regulator or, at least, to a justice ministry accountable to the electorate.

In Short Strand, people are told to shut up, evidence is deliberately 'cleaned up', and those guilty are shot by people accountable to no one without trial or appeal.

All of which you knew rightly, of course...

If the McCartney's were from Dublin, I doubt they'd be in the White House.

If they were from Washington DC, they would not be allowed into the White House along with the 300 or so families of murder victims in DC every year.