Britain & Ireland

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Give him another spade with any luck he will bury himself!

He made the same "comment" about being very careful on BBC Radio Ulster's Five Live tonight.

When it comes to promoting a cause Martin should be taking, not giving advice!

Remember the Harry Enfield sketch, "Women - Know Your Place!"

The Shinners are looking for any excuse to start undermining the McCartney family.
Dictators don't like being dictated to.
This talk of "political manipulation" is only the beginning.

To ask the Mc Cartneys to be careful at the present time is prudent advice whatever way you look at it.

In terms of the advice, let's not look for malice where it may not be present.

Or else what now? Tired of civil rights already?

I think anyone who was giving advice to the family with their best interests at heart would advise them not to run. They would lose heavily and that would undermine their legitimate and just cause.

To me it reads as a threat.

I'm not at all sure the McCartneys would lose heavily. Quite the contrary. However, their cause is better served outside the immediate political arena.

That is not the issue here, though. The issue is that McGuinness is in no position to be making apparently threatening comments.

He's a terrorist. I would have thought he was ideally placed to make threatening comments.

He's a terrorist. I would have thought he was ideally placed to make threatening comments.

I have to agree with Davros.

Mc Guinness isn't as stupid as you suggest - what possible benefit would it be to him and the republican cause to threaten the Mc Cartneys?

You do your own assessment of the situation a great disservice by spinning a sow's ear out of a silk purse.

McGuinness has offered them good political advice. Others may be offering them bad advice and I hope they reject it.

If I was a West Belfast voter I would be voting for Gerry Adams and I would hate that vote to be taken as a vote against or a lack of support for the McCartney family. But that's the way it would be made to look to the anti-Sinn Fein media.

I think McGuiness is perceptive enough to see that if they stand as political candidates their transformation and moulding by the media and political forces opposed to SF, from courageous grass-roots voices of righteous outrage, to being perceived by more nationalists as political axe-grinders would be complete.

This process is sadly well under way already as they fly to see "Dubya", the forces who are pointing them in this direction do not really care about the conviction of Robert McCartney's killers, they are primarily interested in making political hay.

In fact does anyone really believe that successful convictions would benefit any political party OTHER than Sinn Fein?

levitas,

Doesn't it depend on who is convicted?

It matters that the guilty are convicted and that the Mc Cartney family get justice.

But it's odd that the family's seeking to find it in the arms of someone with tens of thousands of deaths on his hands.

Once they put themselves into the political arena they will of course be open to questioning rather than simply asking questions themselves.

Where did they get the money for their America trip would be a starting point?

It ill behoves any shinner to be asking where people got their money from.
Not the Northern Bank anyway, which is more than can be said about the provisionals.

The family revealed at the weekend that they had received donations from other political parties. they did not specify which ones.

Jacko

Does your contribution to every thread amount to no more than sniping at each contributor with whose views you disagree?

Once they put themselves into the political arena they will of course be open to questioning rather than simply asking questions themselves.

All they have to do in that case is make up some spurious guff about having a code of honour pat....
Martin McGuinness can hardly object to that tactic, can he?

It seems that any SF member at the minute is damned if they do and damned if they don't say anything about basically anything with selective quoting taken out of context being a favourite pass-time of most.
Even if they were to distance themselves from the IRA, who as a result were to publicly disarm and disband, the whole thing would be taken as a cynical exercise in media manipulation. If they don't they are seen as being in cahoots with "the godfathers of the IRA".

Sure you wouldn't want to have that job at all. I'd rather join the DUP, now that they look reasonable (to a blind bat)

I viewed the threat from McGuinness as a sign that SF/IRA are worried about electoral damage if the McCartney sisters run.

While running in elections is not necessarily a great idea it does have its advantages. The story has been kept in the media by the drip-drip of information entering the public arena (because of the botched and ongoing cover-up) but can this continue?

Whereas running in elections would ensure the campaign keeps in a prominent position in the media for the next six-eight weeks. It will also maintain the pressure on the Republican movement during the campaign so they cannot try to brush aside the issue and try to make the election about other issues.

McGuinness was on RTE Morning Ireland, said Press Association had "disappointed" him by reporting that some people interpreted his remarks as a threat. Morning Ireland just played the BBC clip in question, then asked MM:
You're the spokesman of a party that this week (!) we learn most of the people who were in Maeginnis' bar and saw Robert McCartney murdered were members of. Surely for you to now tell the McCartney sisters to "be very careful" in this context could by some be said to constitute a threat?

I just wonder what in the long term this offers the electorate.

And where will the cash come from?

If I were asked I'd advise them against it too - and thats no threat, its just common sense. It could of course be said by some that I would be threatening them - but some would say if I spoke to them I was using them for my own gain, if I mentioned them I was making some kind of capital out of their plight, if I visited them I was intimidating them etc.
But thats probably just because I was born in west Belfast.

Now if I were born in London, or Bangor or elsewhere that would probably all be seen as concern for the family with no other (political) agenda or interest up my sleeve.

'we learn most of the people who were in Maeginnis' bar and saw Robert McCartney murdered were members of.'

I thought the murder happened outside of the bar. Does anyone seriously believe that all 70 of the bars clientele that night actually saw the murder take place?

RD,

where are people getting the information that most people in the bar were SF members? Even the Mc Cartneys aren't claiming that. They also aren't claiming that he was murdered inside the bar, even the PSNI are saying it took part outside the bar. So it is best to nail lies at source before they take on the aura of fact.

Has anyone posting on this subject ever been in Magenniss's bar? It is a horseshoe shaped bar with a dividing wall in the room effectively making it two separate rooms. It is quite feasible to be in one part of the bar and not see anything on the other side.

Davros,

you seem to miss the point entirely. If they are accepting advice from people (one of whom is an opponent of the GFA) and they are accepting donations from other political parties they will in fact be breaking up the consensus that they have managed to establish. Especially in the scenario where they stand for elections and the people who are giving them donations stand aside and give them a free run. They run the risk of being party political thus dammaging their own campaign.

Jacko,

stop trolling and try to say something relevant.

Levitas

The following happened inside the bar:
1. A man had his throat cut.
2. Immediately after this, a group of men armed themselves with rods and a knive from the kitchen and walked out of the bar.
3. Shortly after people arrive to wipe down the bar and instruct people that they didn't see anything.

Not a usual night out on the town.

I have already asked this question and no one has given me any type of answer: has Brendan Devine (who was with Robert Mc Cartney when Robert was killed outside the pub), has he made a full and truthful statement to the PSNI and if he has ( and has named names) why has no charges been brought by the PSNI? The PSNI are playing politics with this case.

Surely a major point that is being overlooked here was McGuinness' comments concerning the PSNI investigation.

Surely it is now inconceivable that Mr Devine has not made a statement and named names in that statement. If he has then why are the PSNI not arresting those named as surely eye witness evidence is admisable in court. Indeed if it turns out that Mr Devine has made a statement and the PSNI hasn't responded then maybe the McCartney's should be taking their case to Knock and not Washington.

If he hasn't maybe the family would be better placed demanding to know why not.

As to the PSNI "arranging to interview" suspects maybe they don't view this is an important enough investigation to raid houses or break down doors as they have in the past. The longer this goes on the stranger it becomes.

fair_deal

"Not a usual night out on the town."

Not if you're a civilised human being: however remember these are Provos we're talking about. Strutting around and threatening/intimidating/beating up and even murdering people probably is a usual night on the town for these gangsters.

Turning aside o the issue of McGuinness telling the sisters to "be careful". There is only one way in which this comment can be seriously or honestly interpreted - as a threat. SF/IRA realise that if Paula McCartney runs in Pottinger she could well capture the seat currently held by Joe the Builder. This is what is motivating the actions of Sinn Fein - electoral fright, nothing more, nothing less.

As for whether or not its the right course of action to take: what greater message could the people of Short Strand send to their Sinn Fein/IRA overlords than to elect the sister of one of their victims?

you seem to miss the point entirely

The point pat? I might be missing the spin you want put on this , but it's the IRA and SF leadership with it's blind faithful who are out of step with everybody else.

According to Martin McGuinness, on RTE Morning Ireland, one of the chief suspects for the McCartney murder voluntarily went to the PSNI yesterday to make a statement. He was told to go away and come back in a few days. MM also named two SF people who gave their names and addresses to the PSNI on the night of the murder. They have yet to be contacted by the PSNI. When one of the McCartney sisters was asked, earlier on the same show, if she still had faith in the PSNI investigation she replied "well we have to, what choice do we have?" Not a ringing endorsement.

barney

Sinn Fein tells lies, dog bites man. It aint rocket science.

Christopher Stalford - either you have a very limited (and patronising) view of the people of Short Strand borne from never actually having been there and reading too much British press, or you have been there and walked about with your eyes and ears closed. Phrases such as overlords are completely inappropriate.

Judging from the Meath results at the weekend SF have actually little to fear electorally. Thier core vote is safe and increasing.

And the murderers of Robert McCartney are scumbags - not because some of them were in the IRA but simply because they are scumbags.

And the murderers of Robert McCartney are scumbags - not because some of them were in the IRA but simply because they are scumbags.

The problem is that these scumbags ARE being protected by the big-wigs in the IRA and SF. Just as the scumbags who killed Garda McCabe were protected.

Circles.

I actually know Short Strand fairly well: my family having lived in Cluan Place for 3-4 years when I was a youngster. There's no questioning where the natural political alegiance of the residents of the area lies i.e. with Sinn Fein.

However, I think that in these extraordinary circumstances, in this *locality*, Paula McCartney would be well-placed to attract sufficient votes to threaten for the seat currently held by Joe O'Donnell.

BTW, being a member of the IRA doesn't make you a scumbag, it makes you the degenerate, depraved scum of the earth!

Apart from urging them to hand themselves over to a police force who are apparently less than interested in their evidence (which many have already done), what would you suggest they do Davros - shoot them?

That would be your humble opinion Christopher.

I'd say all soldiers in general are depraved given the fact that their job is to kill - most usually the innocent.

But the murderers of Robert McCartney were not soldiers - they were scumbags.

Circles

"who are apparently less than interested in their evidence" - according to that paragon of moral virtue Martin McGuinness!

Once again - thats your opinion Christopher - not an absolute truth (as you might believe).

Davros,

give us YOUR evidence that the people who killed Mc Cartney are being protected. Not your belief or what you heard.

Circles

"who are apparently less than interested in their evidence" - according to that paragon of moral virtue Martin McGuinness!

Christopher,

welcome back, you seemed to have gone missing after your overt support for Billy Wright registered.

what would you suggest they do Davros

I suggest they quit protecting them. Simple as that.

Why don't SF or P O'Neill for starters name names, and not just the 3 chosen to be fall guys? They were not shy about naming that "securocrat" were they ? Or are we into a similar scenario to what was happening behind the scenes with the Castlerea five ? They might have interesting stories to tell ?

If they are serious how about a statement urging by name the dozen miscreants to confess ?

Once again - thats your opinion Christopher - not an absolute truth (as you might believe).

And do you know the "absolute truth" about this matter? Of course not. Believe it or not absolute truth does always emanate from the pronouncements Connolly House or from the pages of Provo Pravda (AP/RN).

"thats your opinion"

I thought that was the point of Slugger - a forum for *opinions* - clearly I was mistaken.

Pat

Totally untrue. I did not/do not support any terrorist. Mischief making by an out and out Ulster Unionist-supporter, in a nationalist newspaper doesn't alter that fact.

Now how about addressing the issue of Sinn Feins Chief Negotiater issuing threats to the family of a murdered man?

After you give me your evidence that they aren't pat. There's a choice : the word of the McCartneys or the word of McGuinness and his cronies. I know which ones I believe. Why don't McGuinness and the IRA name names ? They haven't been shy about naming names in the past. And as they have admitted that those involved are dirtbags, it can hardly be their 'Code of Honour' that's in the way.

Davros

Absolutely spot on!

I accept your disclaimer Christopher, maybe not support but a bending of the rules re guilt that is evident on this thread but are not used when discussing Willie Mc Crea associate Mr Wright. On the Mc Guinness statement I don't accept it was a threat, my reasons for doing so are set out in my 9.55am post .

Davros,

'After you give me your evidence that they aren't pat.'

You made the initial claim of protection Davros, now if you want to get into a childish you first routine, i'll leave you to play by yourself.
Obviously you haven't read the papers as I believe the names of the three people dismissed by them IRA are readily available and in the hands of the PSNI, who seem not to want to interview one of them, probably best to wait until everyone returns from the USA.

Davros, have you lost the run of yourself? The whole point of this process should be to ensure that the murderers of Robert McCartney are before a court and convicted.

Firstly it is clear that Republicans are not protecting the murderers of Robert McCartney. Having asked, urged and called on people to make statements, having welcomed the McCartney sisters to the Ard Fheis, and having repeatedly endorsed their campaign I don't know what else Republicans can do.

Secondly, just stop and think about what you are proposing. Firstly if SF or the IRA named names in a public statement carried by the media, there goes any possibility of a fair trial. Well done. And as for naming names it seems the PSNI has the names but is unwilling to act.

Indeed, the longer the chief suspects remain at large the greater the liklihood that people will start to wonder whether the PSNI are protecting the murderers.

The fact that political parties (which ones, I wonder?) gave money to the McCartney's to travel to America smacks of nothing but political manipulation.

The PSNI through its handling of the McCartney killing 'investigation' and its probe into the disappearance of Lisa Dorrian has proved itself to be a completely political force. The RUC is back under a new name - I'm sure Christopher and co will be delighted.

Not alone are they politically driven but they're also incompetent into the bargain.

Indeed, the longer the chief suspects remain at large the greater the liklihood that people will start to wonder whether the PSNI are protecting the murderers.

Oh God, DT..... so now you're suggesting that the PSNI are protecting IRA men. Another day in Upsidedownyland.

How would a statement reading
"We in SF would urge A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K and L who were present in the bar to contact the police" prejudice any trial ?

It's a straight choice - the family say they are being protected, MM and others in SF say they are not.

Track record : MM and those others have been caught telling lies in the past.

I know who I believe.

What I am amazed at and cannot fathom is how news reports in the establishment media - the BBC and the (disappointing) newly tabloidised Irish News are saying that detectives will interview one of the main suspects in the killing at a 'later date'.

Is it normal police practice (and I don't consider the PSNI a 'normal' police force but for the sake of argument) for statements regarding future plans to interview identified suspects to be issued to the press to enable these suspects to make arrangements to be elsewhere?

Ringo,

Its not as if this accusation was never made before. Let me think, didn't Scap apparently run free within the IRA with the protection of the security forces, killing people at their direction and at the IRA's direction. So of course how dare anyone suggest the security forces, repackaged or not, might behave in a less than honourable manner.

None, of this, however, explains the at best incompetent and at worst, politically motivated mishandling of this case.

If everyone including the PSNI have the names, and if Mr Devine has made a statement naming names then why are they not in jail? If you have an explanation for this inaction and incompetence I look forward to hearing it.

Derry Terry

"Having asked, urged and called on people to make statements, having welcomed the McCartney sisters to the Ard Fheis, and having repeatedly endorsed their campaign I don't know what else Republicans can do."

Would Sinn Fein have done any of these things had the McCartney family silently disappeared into the background like the families of so many other murdered by the Ra?

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