How come Hugh Orde has not made a statement on this ? Does he not have intelligence on this crime ?

Is it not weird that people in the UK are asking the president of the US to help solve a murder ? Any idea how many murders happen within a couple of miles of his desk every day ?

Maybe its time to send in the Marines (US version). Has that been offered as a solution recently ?

Malachy,

Over here in the USA, people voted for the re-election of Richard Nixon in 1972 because he kept us out of Northern Ireland.

But, seriously folks, you don't want GW or the US Marines.

P O'Neill said:
> no-one should hinder or impede

The IRA have chosen their words carefully as usual. This statement doesn't mean anything because it could just mean "no-one should help or hinder the family"

We need a clear statement detailing what assistance is allowed to be given. I would like a statement making clear that the IRA encourages witnesses to make statements to the police and take the witness stand in open court.

In the meantime, as far as I'm concerned, the IRA doesn't want the judicial system involved and has left itself the option of punishing anyone who gives evidence.

I typed my comment of a few minutes ago without fully reading the IRA statement. This sentence pretty much represents what I wanted to hear:
> Anyone who can help the family in this should do so

Please disregard my last comment.

"Any idea how many murders happen within a couple of miles of his desk every day ?"

Steady there lad, they were at less than one a day a year or so ago. About 260 a year I think.

It's still about twice as bad as Oakland during the crack wars.

But, seriously folks, you don't want GW or the US Marines.

I disagree. I think its now the time for the US govt. to solve this problem. I think the people of Ireland would be okay with it. They seem happy to call for the intervention of the US in crimes like these - surely they would be happy for the US to fix the whole problem.

The British and Irish govts. have recently shown a willingness to put their own political gains ahead of the goal of peace in Ireland. 10 years of work all fubar because of some poxy bank robbery.

Malachy, don't you remember what happened the last time you called for an air strike on your own position? Are you really saying Brits Out, Yanks In?

I'm not saying the British and Irish governments DIDN'T screw things up. I'm just saying that we Yanks may be good at getting into trouble, but we suck at getting out of it.

Malachy,
As an American, I'd welcome greater US involvement in securing peace in the north. Unfortunately I'm not sure that my current president has the intellectual capacity to grasp the complexity of the challenge. Mr. Bush leads by simplistic principle (i.e. terrorist = bad; big business = good)not by thoughtfully understanding any level of detail.

Perhaps in 2008 when we elect a leader who is interested in meaningful engagement with the rest of the world (not just unilateral wars), we can have meaningful and positive US involvement.

Given the timing of today's IRA statement, I'd hazard a guess that US involvement can be taken for granted.

The Mc Cartney family asked for a statement on this issue and now they have got one. It seems some people now complain that the statement is made.

BTW Malachy US marines are to busy murdering in Irag and getting themselves killed to worry about our little backwater.

"Some people now complain..."

Who had you in mind Pat?

I, for one, am not complaining.

Given the timing of today's IRA statement, I'd hazard a guess that US involvement can be taken for granted.

How so?

There will be accusations that this statement is too late. Some would say that the 2 week delay was to allow the IRA to regain control of the area and make sure that everyone is sufficiently intimidated.

That's my own opinion now, but I admit I haven't got any more than gut instinct to go on ... cue jokes about Mr. Orde only having instinct to go on :-)

Pat

Change of position from the -'finally' thread I see.

Do you now accept the possible version I put forward on that thread now that the McCartney sisters have made it clear that it was members of the republican movement and that there is intimidation?

Or maybe you are still in denial, but let us see who the PSNI arrested this evening.

"Unfortunately I'm not sure that my current president has the intellectual capacity to grasp the complexity of the challenge."

The way Bush and Reagan won is by letting people underestimate them. Consider that this Bozo has engineered a real crapper of a war on a pretext shown to be a lie and still won a second term. If that doesn't gag the maggot, also consider that he has a better than even chance to be the third sitting president to win the Nobel Peace Prize. There is no shortage of intellect there.

The vision thing remains the big problem.

Malachy
"I think its now the time for the US govt. to solve this problem. I think the people of Ireland would be okay with it"

No, no, no. Thanks but no thanks. Keep Bush as far away from the island as possible, somewhere close to antarctica would be good.

"somewhere close to antarctica would be good."

and underneath the ever-widening hole in the ozone layer down there.

And our born-again lad realizes that God has a sense of humor.

Amen

vespasian,

no change of position at all, why should I after all I have been correct all along, as I have been entirely consistent through all the threads. Perhaps your own case is weakening as you seek to misinterpret mine.

I accept no such thing, I don't know who carried out the attack, the only people who do are those in the bar. As for intimidation, as the Mc Cartneys stated yesterday they are basing that on the fact that two political parties claimed to have received calls from people in the S Strand stating they were intimidated.

I have not been in denial over anything and again you misrepresentation of my position has descended into outright lies. Go through the threads and try and intake the discussion and you might come to that conclusion.

As for the person arrested I have no idea who it is and I am certain neither do you. It is quite clear from the arguments of yourself and others that justice for the Mc Cartneys takes second place to the politicking involved, a politicking that will in the end be fruitless.

What use is US support?

PS. Assuming that the PIRA gang got rid of all the forensic and camera evidence, and in the absence of a confession, would witness testimonies be enough to secure a conviction in this case?

WF Everyone has accepted that those responsible for the murder of Robert Mc Cartney were not a "PIRA gang". Secondly it has been reported that the cameras at the scene were not working. So with this information at your disposal it seems to me that your interest in this incident is taking cheap shots at republicans rather than truth and justice for the MC Cartney family.

it has been reported that the cameras at the scene were not working. So with this information at your disposal

It's also been widely reported that The IRA , with some in SF knowing in advance, was responsible for the Northern Bank raid.Does that make either report reliable ?

J Kelly

OK then, just for you, I'll rephrase the question.

Assuming that the gang containing members of the PIRA acting without official "sanction" got rid of all the forensic evidence, that camera evidence is unavailable, and in the absence of a confession, would witness testimonies be enough to secure a conviction in this case?

Care to offer an opinion? Anyone else?

PS. What would the odds have been that the night a murder took place the CCTV camera happened not to be working?

Further to Willowfield's point if this case comes to trial will it be held before a Diplock court?

I'd be interested to know why the RM considers this a 'brutal killing' when it appeared to have no such abhorrance towards the killing of Andy Kearney?

Dec,
Tommy Gorman on RTE last night said he believed the McCartney murder was a bigger problem for northern nationalism and Sinn Fein's credibility within it than the Northern Bank job.

I would say this is the reason why we have an IRA statement on this "brutal killing".

Dec

Further to Willowfield's point if this case comes to trial will it be held before a Diplock court?

Good question. I think it would depends on whether it was classed as a "terrorist offence". Does the fact that the accused is a PIRA member result in such classification or not?

I'd be interested to know why the RM considers this a 'brutal killing' when it appeared to have no such abhorrance towards the killing of Andy Kearney?

Because - as implied by George - it is politically expedient to do so, but not in the Kearney case, due to all the media coverage? Because the Kearney murder was "sanctioned"?

Pat

I suggest you just stop digging.

The hole is deep enough already!

WF/George

I agree but I'd like to hear their rationale.

According to this site “in Northern Ireland judges can sometimes sit alone in 'diplock' court. The diplock court is used when the offence that has been committed is listed as a scheduled offence under Schedule One of the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1996. These were introduced in an attempt to prevent terrorist intimidation of jurors”.

And if you look at Schedule 1 of the legislation, it includes murder within the definition of a “scheduled offence”, but states that “any offence specified in this Part of this Schedule which is stated to be subject to this note is not a scheduled offence in any particular case in which the Attorney General for Northern Ireland certifies that it is not to be treated as a scheduled offence”.

Therefore the Attorney General would have to decide whether or not the murder was a scheduled offence and thence to be tried in a Diplock court.

It would be an interesting decision, which itself would be open to judicial review. The implications of treating this particular murder as a scheduled offence would presumably be a recognition that it was a “terrorist offence” and would probably be opposed by Provisional SF who would wish to see it treated as a common-or-garden murder.

vespasian,

this is a discussion board, come on with flights of fancy if you so wish, but please expect to be challenged.

Have a nice day.

vespaian,

'Or maybe you are still in denial, but let us see who the PSNI arrested this evening.'

That person has now been released, want to start digging again.