I interpret this to mean that we should get a bit more scared.

I interpret this as meaning what it says, don't underestimate the seriousness of the situation

So in other words cg, you don't interpret it at all.

There's a level of redundancy about some comments that beggars belief.

I interpret this as the school yard bully saying: now I really mean it.
Yawn.

If they want to return to their old ways let them. All it will take is a strong will from both governments to face the terrorists head on. The return to violence will also do damage to Sinn Fein electorally.
This is hot air from the provos. They are slowly but surely beginning to unravel.
Just as a matter of interest. If there was a return to violence would all IRA released under the GFA go back to jail?

It's Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction saying she won't be ignored.

PIRA: what a bunch of tossers.

Go away, please.

Be assured there will be no spectaculars b4 the General election. SF/IRA are not stupid. They have just spat out the dummy.

I think it is time for P O'Neil to relect on the serious intent of all other parties to this process - which includes the overwhelming mass of the people of Ireland. The demand not just for decommissioning, but for the structure of all ( I repeat all) paramilitaries to be dismantled is overwhelming.

Let P O'Neil stand in an election with the continuation of his organisation as his manifesto and let's see where he gets. Let Sinn Fein go free, realise your time is long gone. The last two statements are no longer about the cause of Ireland - they're about the cause of P O'Neil.

So ... to clarify ... we're being tacitly threatened with a resumption of the 'war' (how seriously I don't know). But of course, the IRA would never, ever use violence to steal £26.5m from Northern Bank. Right. OK. Let me think about that for a while and I'll get back to you.

Sneering aside, I doubt the IRA would really go back to the campaign of terror - certainly not before 2005 and probably (touch wood) not after. Right now Sinn Féin are making big electoral progress throughout Ireland, North and South, and a return to terrorism would likely run a coach and horses through that progress (certainly in the Republic).

It's one of the good things the peace process is slowly doing, in my view, even if it's staggering badly - just by maintaining such a long period where the terrorist campaigns are mostly over, it becomes more and more difficult to start them up again without a massive popular backlash.

"The last two statements are no longer about the cause of Ireland - they're about the cause of P O'Neil."

Psst... he's not a real person.

toronto
Psst... he's not a real person

And you know this how?

This bluff should have been called in 1998.

And if it is not a bluff, we will quickly discover if George Bush means anything by his "War on Terror" hyperbole (and it could be the end of the "special relationship" myth).

SF people are coming out tonight saying that they will no longer intrerpret IRA statements. Given that the IRA seems to be calling the shots has the time come for the governments to deal with the man with the barrel organ and forget about the monkey?

For what it's worth my interpretation of the statement: "The two governments are trying to play down the importance of our statement because they are making a mess of the peace process" is chuckie-speak for, "the two governments have spent six years turning their back on IRA murders, abductions, punishment attacks, robberies etc etc., now how dare they change their minds and actually uphold the law of the land, who do they think they are?".

"Do not underestimate the seriousness of the situation". The governments have handed us a veto on political progress in Northern Ireland. We know that we can return to terror and most of our supporters in N.I. will still vote for us as they did when we were killing people in Warrington, Enniskillen etc. We've made a doormat of the SDLP, so there is no alternative, and there's no doubt FF would rather go into coalition with any other party in the Republic, so there's nothing lost there. Republican unity comes first and some of the lads have itchy trigger fingers."

It's the politics of Violet Elizabeth Bott: I'll scweam and I'll scweam and I'll scweam

"SF people are coming out tonight saying that they will no longer intrerpret IRA statements"

Who said that Keith?

Nice one, Acer!

We've scratched the IRA's apparently peace-loving surface and found a deadly viper seemingly poised to strike. I wonder how all these threats are going to go down in the next general election.

To people saying "they wouldn't be that stupid", well yes they would. They were in 1996. They were stupid again when they planned the bank robbery. It's quite believable that when the US, Irish and British governments, almost every single political party and almost every single media outlet is lined up against them, the IRA would be more than prepared to be stupid once again. One wonders, though, how the nationalist electorate - slowly but surely growing used to the PSNI, the improved employment situation, and the general air that the unionists don't get their way any more - will react to being dragged back into a war again.

cg,

Adams said that at his press con apparently

cg, in the context of an armed organization on a conditional ceasefire which it has officially terminated on one occasion in the past and unofficially broken several times more, what do you think the consequences are of the IRA's statement about seriousness being ignord ?

If you think there will be a return to war, you should have the balls to just say it. Don't dance around the thing. Let us know if you're going to take us back to war or not.

cg "Who said that Keith?". The Member of Parliament for West Belfast.

Roger W

Go on Rog my son, ask the hard questions.

Wasn't the threat always there? I thought that was the point. They never said that they'd gone away to paraphrase someone...

I find it odd that people seem surprised that they have finally made that threat.

I also wonder if the "tantrum" language used by some posters and commentators is based on the apparently secure belief that they won't go back to the bad old days.

I wouldn't be so sure.

It almost seems that the various governments' responses to this situation are designed to egg them on. Daring them, almost. Lots of political capital just waiting to be made if they do blow something up.

They have woken up before, and we've been hearing whispers for a few weeks about a "spectacular." How much instability are people ready for?

Thanks. I'm rather worried about the prospect of opening up Slugger in a few days and reading the usual suspects explained how the British and Irish government's actions were responsible for that shopping centre being blown up with several civilians being killed. I hope it doesn't happen, but it's in the hands of the IRA now.

"cg, in the context of an armed organization on a conditional ceasefire which it has officially terminated on one occasion in the past and unofficially broken several times more, what do you think the consequences are of the IRA's statement about seriousness being ignord ?"

Roger as I am not a member of the Army council I am afraid I don't know what the consequences will be.

"If you think there will be a return to war, you should have the balls to just say it"

The point is Roger I don't think there will be a return to war

"Don't dance around the thing"

I'm not dancing around anything, mores the pity ;)

"Let us know if you're going to take us back to war or not."

Roger I have no plans to bring anyone back to war and as I am not a member of Oglaigh na hEireann I also lack the capacity.

It is serious when SF/IRA finally realise that their game of a little democracy mixed with an 'acceptable' level of violence and gansterism is to be no longer tolerated.

The question is - what can they do now? A bomb in London is not likely after 9/11 and Madrid etc. They can't even wave their guns in the air with out looking like Osama supporters in Afganistan maybe exchanging their balaclavas for some Arab head-dress would complete the picture.

What do they do? - have a tantrum and dig their fetid bunker a little deeper and throw a few dud hand grenades out to 'frighten' the population. They just haven't got the message their arms are no use anymore they are no longer a bargaining chip to be taken on and off the table they are useless as they cannot use them again EVER.

So let everone else get on with democracy and let them live in their world where violence used to pay dividends, they will soon find the cheques from Bertie and Tony have stopped coming and it's getting very frosty out there and the bills are mounting up.

Bottom line is this,
It is now time once and for all to face the provo threats head on. Both governments have never had better relations. Now is the time to defeat PIRA.

JD I agree. I don't think people like cg and others really have an insight into the IRA's thinking, in the way that they like to believe that they do. The IRA will go back to war if it is what is necessary to avoid a split in it's ranks.

I don't think the nationalist community will stand for it. A return to war by the IRA will be welcomed with glee by the loyalists who are no doubt bristling at the opportunity to get back into frenzied taig-killing again. Paisley will be shown to have been right all along and unionism will find itself in from the cold. The police will once again return to being a "bulwark" and find it's abusive excesses ignored once more in the pursuit of security. The businesses will pull out, the property market (think of all those nationalists who have bought up those nice houses around Andytown and other parts of W Belfast) will fall through.

Whose interests are really being served by an IRA resumption ?

"Roger as I am not a member of the Army council I am afraid I don't know what the consequences will be."

Can you take a guess ? As a republican you must have an opinion on the matter. Are you saying you have zero opinion on the IRA's intentions ?

"The point is Roger I don't think there will be a return to war"

So we can ignore the IRA's statement then ? If they're not going to return to violence then why should we pay any attention to what they have to say ? They're not elected, Sinn Fein are.

The self-appointed Provo "army" is just making the implicit threat (that has always existed) a bit more explicit.

They should be ignored.

Don't indulge these sad tossers. They crave attention.

"Can you take a guess ? As a republican you must have an opinion on the matter. Are you saying you have zero opinion on the IRA's intentions ?"

Roger I could of course suggest many farcical scenarios

1. Back to war
2. Turn Unionist
3. Become an Army of lap dancers
4. Leave Ireland and join the circus

Do I believe any will happen? NO!!

I didn't know the IRA threatened consequences if people fail to recognise the seriousness of the situation.

"The two governments are trying to play down the importance of our statement because they are making a mess of the peace process. Do not underestimate the seriousness of the situation."

In all sincerity Roger I really don't know

Cg is right he cannot speak for the republican movement and I applaud him for stating this. He is merely an armchair republican.

"He is merely an armchair republican"

I am a member of Sinn Féin, How am I an armchair republican?

"Cg is right he cannot speak for the republican movement and I applaud him for stating this"

I am not a member of Oglaigh na hEireann and as such am not qualified to speak on what they may or may not do

I hope that has cleared up your obvious ignorance

What's Oglaigh na hEireann?

Willowfield,

Oglaigh na hEireann are the defence forces of the RoI. The name however has frequently been appropriated by a number of terrorist groups.

Irish Volunteers

The most serious question to be answered here is: have Sinn Fein lost their grip on the discipline of the IRA? If so, Sinn Fein have no hold on their actions. This is dangerous. Sinn Fein need to make clear how strong their influence is, otherwise the Governments need to meet with "ALL" of the IRA Army Council before some innocent people needlessly lose their lives.

Didn't the Irish Volunteers exit stage left around 1918?

CG
Óglaigh na hÉireann will continue their primary tasks of defending the state against armed aggression and aid to the civil power. The IRA on the other hand... ;)

Cg,
Do you think SF can hold this rabble ie PIRA together or is all lost.

Jimmy

What terrorist groups use it?

Why are the ROI defence forces called volunteers?

Cg,
Do you support the peace process or would you prefer a return to war?

Willow
"What terrorist groups use it?"
IRA

"Cg,
Do you support the peace process or would you prefer a return to war?"

I support the peace process and don't want to see a return to war

"What terrorist groups use it?"
IRA"

Maca

They aren't a terrorist group

IRA

Which IRA? And why do they use the pre-1919 name? And why do the ROI forces call themselves volunteers?

cg

They aren't a terrorist group

Do you seriously believe this nonsense?! On one thread you're claiming there was a "war"; on this the IRA aren't terrorists; on another you tried to deny you were a UK citizen.

What kind of fantasy land do you inhabit?

... and on another you claimed murder and abduction weren't crimes.

It seems ultra-nationalists have to create for themselves some kind of parallel world in order to justify their views.

"Do you seriously believe this nonsense"

Just because you say it's nonsense doesn't make it so

It was war, the IRA are not terrorists and I am not a fucking UK citizen

"on another you claimed murder and abduction weren't crimes"

I did not

Willowfield,

The term is simply the inheritance from their incorporation as the armed forces of the Free State. Look at their website and you'll see it is still there. Also it has always been a volunteer army.

I believe all the IRA factions either use or have purported to call themselves by that name, but I'm open to correction.

Setting aside the rights and wrongs of events on the ground for a moment - we are lucky to have a few like Henry, Pat and cg prepared to post here at the moment.With the badgering going on I wouldn't blame them if they went and found something more pleasant to do. Then we can return to a rerun of the UUP vs DUP discussion. Bollix.

Don't worry Davros I have no intention of running away from anyone. I am entitled to my beliefs as much as anyone.

CG
"They aren't a terrorist group"

To most of us they are.

Willow
"And why do the ROI forces call themselves volunteers?"

Only the Reserve Defence Forces (formerly FCÁ) are volunteers. The overall force is called Óglaigh na hÉireann or Irish Defence Forces.

I have no intention of running away from anyone

No slight was intended and abstention is an active as well as a passive response ;)

cg

Just because you say it's nonsense doesn't make it so

That's true. But equally just because you say it's not nonsense doesn't mean it's not nonsense.

It was war

No it wasn't. I challenged you about that on another thread and it turned out that your argument consisted of the fact that some soldier in FRU had once said there was a war. That's not an argument.

... the IRA are not terrorists

Then how do you explain all the terrorism?

... and I am not a fucking UK citizen

That's what you said before. But, when challenged, it turned out that you are from NI, born there of parents from NI. That makes you a UK citizen! (Clue: the PIRA hasn't achieved a united Ireland yet - NI is still in the UK.)

"on another you claimed murder and abduction weren't crimes" ... I did not

Er, yes you did! I remember it clearly.

Jimmy Sands

The term is simply the inheritance from their incorporation as the armed forces of the Free State. Look at their website and you'll see it is still there. Also it has always been a volunteer army. I believe all the IRA factions either use or have purported to call themselves by that name, but I'm open to correction.

I see. So it's used by all the various IRA factions AND by the ROI state forces? And it literally translates as "Irish Volunteers"?

"That's true. But equally just because you say it's not nonsense doesn't mean it's not nonsense."

Correction willow, the burden of proof is on the accuser.

"That makes you a UK citizen"

No it doesn't, I have an Irish passport and pay taxes in the 26 counties. On every legal document my nationality is Irish. I have never been or will ever be a UK citizen.

"Er, yes you did! I remember it clearly"

Please produce the evidence of where I said that

Was cg not banned before for using abusive language?
Cg just because you are losing the arguement don't resort to bad language.
I think you should call it a night and compose yourself.

puddinhead
"Was cg not banned before for using abusive language? "

No, that was cgmoron.

"Was cg not banned before for using abusive language?"

No

"Cg just because you are losing the arguement don't resort to bad language"

I am not losing any argument and I am still not a fucking UK citizen. I don't mind if people in the North of Ireland consider themselves to be UK citizens. I however am not one and take great offence been told that I am one.

"I think you should call it a night and compose yourself"

I am extremely well composed thank you very much

maca has he changed his name or a differnt person entirely

cg, of course you are a UK citizen, just as the unionists here are Irish citizens. Citizenship is merely a privilege accorded to a person by a state or nation. You could be a citizen of the USA or anywhere else just as easily, if the USA decided to grant citizenship to you. I must say I'd be surprised if you had actually gone the length and renounced your citizenship in the UK.

The only reason why you are able to hold an Irish passport is because the Irish state (the one whose existence you oppose and want to see replaced with a 32-county socialist state) very kindly grants you citizenship outside of it's borders. There is theoretically nothing to stop the Irish state modifying it's constitution to withdraw this privilege.

cg i understand you are upset . However mind the language please as I find it offensive.

puddinhead
"maca has he changed his name or a differnt person entirely"

Different person entirely.

"maca has he changed his name or a differnt person entirely"

Seeing as the abuse that cgmoron projected was directed at me I don't think so.

Roger

"cg, of course you are a UK citizen"

For the last time, I AM NOT A UK CITIZEN!!!!

I am an Irish citizen

"However mind the language please as I find it offensive."

You find what language offensive?

Cg
We get the message you are an Irish citizen. However you do not recognise the Irish govt or the Garda or the Irish army.
You are truely a fine citizen

"You are truely a fine citizen"
Now who's being offensive puddinhead??

Before I wade into this ... cg, I'm not going to say you are a UK citizen. You aren't.

As far as I know you aren't a UK citizen if you haven't been registered as one. You might have the right to citizenship, but that's not the same thing. Cg has the right to vote in the UK by virtue of Irish citizenship. My understanding is that both governments agree that NI citizens have the right to be British, Irish or both.

Once you have UK citizenship, though, I believe it's legally impossible to relinquish, though the Home Secretary can now strip you of it in some circumstances. The theory is that as a subject you can't just give up your allegiance ... which as a British republican I find less than appealing ...

Cg the f word,
Are you drunk again?

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it CG. The UK confers citizenship rights upon you. That makes you a citizen and as a result you have certain rights, eg you cannot be deported. Likewise, the Irish state confers citizenship rights on everyone in NI. That makes the unionists Irish citizens, even if they do not opt to have an Irish passport.

If you are abroad you can use the services of a British consulate or embassy. This would not be possible if you were not a British citizen.

The mandates accorded to the GFA north and south trump the mouldy 1919 old SF one, when even then most of the votes cast were in fact for parties that accepted a constitutional route.

So for the Provos to go back to killing and intimidation is quite illegitmate as well as being counterproductive in terms of the unity of the peoples of ireland.

Any new war is waged to promote repartition.

The problem is that the DUP may not mind.

maca,
where was the offence in you are truely a fine citizen?

politico

The government of Uganda could declare us all citizens and not give us the right to refuse. But it wouldn't make me Ugandan any more than a British government can force me to be a subject of their
f***ing queen.

Those who are trying to impose UK citizenship on CG should remember this. When there is a United Ireland those who treasure will be "allowed" to have their UK citizenship recognised. Therefore because of the current Political landscape please do not insult those who wish to be solely recognised as Irish. British and Irish citizenship is recognised equally.

Res Publica?

What have the IRA to do with public matters?

I suppose the Resclanculum movement sounds funny.

"However you do not recognise the Irish govt or the Garda or the Irish army."

Sorry to burst you bubble puddinhead but I do recognise all of the above, don’t let something like the truth get in your way though

"Cg the f word,
Are you drunk again?"

If you find my use of the F word offensive then I apologise, I don't know how you could as it wasn't directed at you or anyone for that matter.

I am unfortunately not drunk because if I was I would find this whole situation quite humorous.

Henry94

I agree 110%

Henry, yes and that doesn't contradict what I said. You would be a Ugandan citizen, but you would not be Ugandan. Many British citizens hate the idea of a monarchy and want it removed.

PONeill, I think that debating what rights another country confers on you is silly and petty. You can argue till you're blue in the face, but if another country decides to confer citizenship on you there is nothing you can do about it. I'd say that to a unionist rejecting Irish citizenship just the same. Unionists in NI are Irish citizens - they are entitled to Irish passports. Many people around the world have the same entitlement under the grandfather rule.

Roger

There is nothing you or anyone else could say or do to make me a British citizen.

If the British government said I was black would that make it so?

CG
You are a British subject that's what the whole conflict is about, because you are one and don't want to be one. If you were a fully fledged Irish citizen you wouldn't have anything to fight about.

If the provo thing was a war then they're guilty of war crimes - simple as that. Take your pick, war criminals or just common or garden ones.

By the way, and I'm not being judgemental or anything, but you do seem a wee bit drunk to me.

Henry94

I agree with you on the position. If you look at my first sentences you'll see that I specifically stated that you (and cg) might have the right to UK citizenship but that that did not make you UK citizens. (I think the aggression towards the head of state of another country is unnecessary - and I say that as someone who'd like to replace the monarchy - but I agree with you on the nationality issue.)

Furthermore, if you haven't got UK citizenship in the first place you can't be stuck with it, so the inability to renounce isn't really relevant ... that was simply a by-the-by. Apologies.

"CG
You are a British subject”

So are you lot saying I am a British subject or citizen, not that it matters as I am neither.

As for your allegation that I am drunk, I assure you I am not. Not a drop of alcohol has passed my lips since Monday night.

I am pissed, pissed of that is, that people are so arrogant as to think they have the right to tell me I am a British subject/citizen and somehow their word is final.

CG

Neither. Irish through and through. As said previously.

CG

Calm down, and think about what I'm saying.

The provos went to "war" because they were British subjects and didn't want to be. That hasn't changed. This is still part of the UK, you are still a British subject (not citizen, because it's a kingdom you see).
I don't know what you're so worried about, sure I'm one too.

I'll take your word on the aul drink thing - maybe you're on medication. Are you?

Jacko

The mere fact that a person has always lived within the UK's jurisdiction doesn't make them a British citizen (I have friends who were born here and have always lived here but aren't citizens). You may have an automatic right if you're Northern Irish but no one's making you take it up. The nationalist community in NI want the territory of NI to join the Republic. That doesn't necessarily imply anythng about current citizenship.

BTW, you can be a British citizen - under the Britsh Nationality Act 1981 it was created as a category of British subject. I believe there are still a number of rather bizarre categories (e.g. British protected person) of British subjects which aren't actually equivalent to citizenship, and it wasn't that long ago ('98) that people in UK Overseas Territories were stuck with the rather arcane BSWC status - British subjects without citizenship.

"CG

Neither. Irish through and through. As said previously"

Thanks politico, at least some one around here has sense :)

"CG

Calm down"

I would appreciate it Jacko if you would stop being patronising, I am not drunk or drugged. If you don't want to challenge my arguments say so but don't do the underhand tactic of suggesting I am inebriated, OK ;)

The IRA went to war to end British occupation of Ireland. They set out to establish a 32 County Socialist Republic. It had nothing to do with your suggestion that everyone in the North of Ireland is a British subject.

"not citizen, because it's a kingdom you see"

I know perfectly well that there is no such thing as a "British Citizen" however Willow started all this rolling by claiming I was a British citizen so you can cut the sarcasm.

"I don't know what you're so worried about, sure I'm one too"

I'm not worried because I am not a British subject

"BTW, you can be a British citizen - under the Britsh Nationality Act 1981 it was created as a category of British subject"

Politico is that not a bit of an oxymoron?

Surely a citizen is of Republic while subject is of monarchy?

Then again I learn something new every day ;)

Irrespective of the variations on British citizens/subjects which I'm vaguely aware largely applied to former colonies and all that stuff, if you are born in Northern Ireland and your birth is registered here and your parents were born within the kingdom, you are a British subject. Until quite recently, if born to foreign nationals you were also entitled but that "loophole" has been closed.
Now we can play all this "I am what I think I am nonsense" and, of course, we are now all able to claim Irish passports if we wish (and I think that's a good thing, but, whether you take it up or not you are registered at Lancaster (or is it Churchill?) House as a British subject.
So, tough CG but you'll just have to get over it.

Basically if you are born in the UK jurisdiction of parents with UK citizenship you are automatically conferred with UK citizenship. You may elect to renounce said citizenship by filling out form RN1 or RN2 and paying 81 pounds.

SF/SDLP should get the British govt to allow NI nationalists to renounce their citizenship for free. That or accept Bank of NI notes ;)

Just to settle this once and for all

According to the British Nationality Act 1981

I am not a British Citizen

"Will a child born in the United Kingdom on or after 1 January 1983 be a British Citizen? (See Chart A)
He or she will be British Citizen if one of his or her parents (see Note 4) is a British Citizen. It does not matter how the parent concerned became a British Citizen or whether he or she is such citizen by birth, adoption, descent, naturalisation or registration. If neither parent is a British Citizen, the child will still be a British citizen if one of his or her parents is settled here (see Note 5). If neither of the child’s parents is a British Citizen and neither is settled in the United Kingdom, then the child will not be a British Citizen at birth."

I was born in 1984, my father is from the 26 counties and my mother was never a British citizen as she was born in the 26 counties also.
She lived on and off in the 26 counties through most of her life as both her parents was from the south. She and my father were not settled in South Armagh when I was born but in the 26 counties. When I was born they moved. Seeing as they were not settled and niether was a British Citizen then I am not one by Birth.

Due to the fact that my parents settled in the north after I was born I would have been able to register when I was a minor, I am no longer that.

Seeing as I spent the first ten years of my life In the North I would be able to register as a British citizen at any time, I have no plans to do so.

So now all of you have it and even according to your own laws I am not a British citizen.

I am an Irish citizen and nothing more.

BTW You can renounce your so-called "British Citizenship" at the British embassy.

Well that seems to have settled it cg :)

For others who are British subjects (legally) and don't want to be, does it really help to rub their noses in it ?

Surely in reality there is the legal and emotional sides to nationality. The legal is usually a formal declaration of the emotional, such as in marriage. Without the emotional attachment the legal sense of nationality is quite hollow.

Let's live and let live and recognise that the emotional is, in some circumstances, more important to people than the legal.

As far as going back to war, the IRA haven't said that. i think the reasons why they were looking to stop their war in the early 1990's haven't changed. In fact, the situation for nationalists has got much better since then. They won't risk what they have already gained. They wanted a way out in early 1990's and they were given it.

I agree abucs

People in the North of Ireland should not be clasified as a British citizen if they don't wanty to be one.

should read "want" not "wanty"

sorry

Toronto,

*"The last two statements are no longer about the cause of Ireland - they're about the cause of P O'Neil."

Psst... he's not a real person.*

And who precisely was not aware of that?

Jesus people posting around 4.00am, there's dedication.

I'm off for 2 weeks see ye all

cg

Correction willow, the burden of proof is on the accuser.

That’s not a correction: it’s a different point entirely.

I was born in 1984, my father is from the 26 counties and my mother was never a British citizen as she was born in the 26 counties also.

Why didn’t you tell us that earlier and save all the arguing? You are not, then, a UK citizen. But Henry is, assuming his parents were born in NI.

I know perfectly well that there is no such thing as a "British Citizen" however Willow started all this rolling by claiming I was a British citizen so you can cut the sarcasm.

Then your knowledge is lacking: there is such a thing as a British citizen.

Please produce the evidence of where I said that

I would if I could remember the name of the thread. Can you remember which one it was?

I note your failure to explain, if the IRA weren’t terrorists, why they engaged in terrorism.

politico

As far as I know you aren't a UK citizen if you haven't been registered as one.

You have to “register” to be a UK citizen?? Where is this “register” held? There can’t be too many UK citizens because I’ve never heard of anyone registering to become one!

You might have the right to citizenship, but that's not the same thing. Cg has the right to vote in the UK by virtue of Irish citizenship.

He has the right to vote by virtue of EU citizenship.

My understanding is that both governments agree that NI citizens have the right to be British, Irish or both.

No. People in NI have the right to be regarded as Southern Irish citizens. But they are all automatically UK citizens.

I agree with you on the position. If you look at my first sentences you'll see that I specifically stated that you (and cg) might have the right to UK citizenship but that that did not make you UK citizens.

No. It’s not that they have the right to citizenship. They ARE citizens.

Furthermore, if you haven't got UK citizenship in the first place you can't be stuck with it, so the inability to renounce isn't really relevant ... that was simply a by-the-by. Apologies.

Irrelevant. Because they do have UK citizenship. And they can renounce it.

You may have an automatic right if you're Northern Irish but no one's making you take it up.

It’s not an automatic right: it’s automatic citizenship. You don’t have to “take it up”.

Roger W Christ

Likewise, the Irish state confers citizenship rights on everyone in NI. That makes the unionists Irish citizens, even if they do not opt to have an Irish passport.

Not quite. People in NI have the right to be regarded as ROI citizens. But they are not necessarily regarded as such. The relevant act in the ROI says they are “not presumed not to be”, which is not the same as an automatic presumption.

Henry94

The government of Uganda could declare us all citizens and not give us the right to refuse. But it wouldn't make me Ugandan any more than a British government can force me to be a subject of their f***ing queen.

Difference is, Henry, you live in the UK. You don’t live in Uganda. So UK law has jurisdiction over you. You’re in denial, aren’t you?

willowfield

Living in a juristiction does not make you a citizen so that is not relevent. Moving to Uganda would not make me a Ugandan.

There is a general acceptence in the fair minds of fair people that identity and nationality is a matter for the individual in the north to define for themselves.

Now and in the event of a united Ireland I will continue to recognise and respect the British identity and citizenship of those who want it.

Your unwillingness to do the same for us is your problem not ours.

Happy days are here again. With a big smile I say How great is God.

With every statement from the IRA filth the laughter rises. To think this was an organisation that the DUP were about to sign up for government with. Ian Paisley saw the light.

The GFA is destined for the dustbin of history. Never again will our Protestant nation be governed by Popish conspirators.

We are on the march. Victory is ours. The Pope is on the run.

To Protestants I say keep vigilant, watch your Papish neighbours. Report visits to their property by priests and the like. The dark forces of Rome work in mysterious ways.

The future is ours. Let us seize it.

God Save The Queen.

Henry94

Living in a juristiction does not make you a citizen so that is not relevent.

I never said it did. The relevance was not that residence makes you a citizen, it was that residence makes you subject to the law of the land.

Moving to Uganda would not make me a Ugandan.

Nobody claimed that it did.

There is a general acceptence in the fair minds of fair people that identity and nationality is a matter for the individual in the north to define for themselves.

Maybe so, but we're talking about citizenship.

Now and in the event of a united Ireland I will continue to recognise and respect the British identity and citizenship of those who want it.

That's great. Even in the absence of a united Ireland, I will continue to recognise and respect the British and Irish and any other identities and citizenships of everyone.

Your unwillingness to do the same for us is your problem not ours.

I'm not unwilling to recognise your Irish identity and Southern citizenship. Unfortunately for you, though, citizenship of the UK is not in my hands, nor in yours (unless you want to pay your £81). It is up to Parliament.

You are a UK citizen. I know you don't want to be, but that is not enough to change reality.

Why live in denial?

If I can go back a few posts a minute - is cg saying that Kingsmills, Tullyvallen, Teebane, Four Step Inn, Balmoral Furnishings, Bayardo Bar, Birmingham, Warrington etc weren't acts of terrorism?

If so the mind boggles as to what actually does constitute an act of terrorism...

It's simply the second leg of the "TUAS" strategy - Tell Us Another Storey..(sic)

Basically the false 'republican' doublespeak is that their Irish citizenship somehow gives them the right to ignore the laws of the UK while they are in NI on the basis that they'd rather the British State didn't have jurisdiction there. The problem for them is that the British State does have jurisdiction there!

When I was in Germany I had to abide by the laws of Germany, even though I wasn't a German citizen at all. When I am in the Irish Republic I have to abide by the laws of the Irish Republic, even if I'd prefer not to be an Irish citizen (quite happy to be one in fact, but that's not the point). And when I'm in the UK, regardless of citizenship or preferred citizenship, I have to abide by the laws of the UK.

Those residing in NI must abide by the laws of the UK. If they wish to change those (including the very one that places NI within the UK), they have the right to do so democratically. But they do not have the right to ignore reality, nor to use violence or the threat of violence.

George Bush take note.

CG
So you started that whole row cursing at us and evrything and then, 4 hours later, you think it might be relevant to mention that you were born in the south of southern parents.

Willowfield

It was me who introduced the register thing, I was alluding to the legal requirement for birth registration.

Mike

If, as the provos argue, it was a war, then by every international code they are guilty of numerous war crimes. If, instead, it wasn't a war then they were commiting criminal acts.

So, war criminals or ordinary common-or-garden ones, let them take their pick.

Yeah that kinda nips. The forces of the state are held accountable ie Bloody sunday and all the rest...which is only right but woe betide and wrong doing amongst the IRA who were "at war".

*but woe betide anyone who dares to highlight any wrong doing amongst the IRA who were "at war".

Jacko

It was me who introduced the register thing, I was alluding to the legal requirement for birth registration.

No. Politico mentioned it before you.

IJP

Basically the false 'republican' doublespeak is that their Irish citizenship somehow gives them the right to ignore the laws of the UK while they are in NI on the basis that they'd rather the British State didn't have jurisdiction there.

I'm not using may Irish citizenship as a justification for breaking any law in any state. What an outrageous allegation.

But you're claiming that UK law doesn't apply to you because you are an ROI citizen.

willowfield

UK laws on citizenship apply to the UK state not to the individual citizen. The UK state has defined for itself how it chooses to regard me. It confers no obligation on me to share their opinion or their definition.

I am not acting outside the law in any way whatsoever.

ulsterman,

"The Pope is on the run".

Is that a medical update ? :)

The fact that this thread quickly went off topic to the extremely tired topic of citizenship suggests that people are not taking the second IRA statement seriously enough.

Get back on topic, guys, of there could be a third IRA statement saying that people have not taken the second one seriously enough.

Geez those doctors are good !!

Henry94

UK laws on citizenship apply to the UK state not to the individual citizen.

Don't be ridiculous! Of course they apply to individuals! I've never heard anything so stupid in all my laugh. You're desperation to deny reality is clear.

The UK state has defined for itself how it chooses to regard me. It confers no obligation on me to share their opinion or their definition.

It's not an opinion. It's a fact. You are a UK citizen. If you don't want to be you can pay your £81 and renounce it.

I am not acting outside the law in any way whatsoever.

I never said you were. You're just being very silly and childish. But no matter how loudly you stamp your feet and shout "I'm not a British citizen", you can't relinquish your citizenship unless you pay your £81.

LOL, slug!

willowfield

You have lost your cool and made a fool of yourself again.

The UK parliament is free to pass a law about what it believes. It has no authority to pass a law about what I believe.

Henry94

I haven't lost my cool, nor have I made a fool of myself.

The UK parliament is free to pass a law about what it believes. It has no authority to pass a law about what I believe.

You're spiralling into a circle of greater and greater nonsense. No-one says it has the authority to pass a law about what you believe! What you believe is totally irrelevant.

You are a UK citizen whether you "believe" it or not! Unless you pay your £81.

I might believe I am the Son of God. That does not make it true.

You're in denial. But I don't understand the big deal: we know you don't WANT to be a UK citizen.

Do you really have to pay £81 to renounce UK subjectship?

Even if you didn't want the damned thing in the first place?

Scandalous.

Subjectship?

No such word, Billy.

I just coined it. Citizenship would have been inaccurate.

It wouldn't.

Billy

It sounds like a scam doesn't it. And you need to produce a British birth cert or passport to prove you are a British citizen in order to renounce it.

So if, like me, you have neither then there is no evidence to support their claim on you in the first place.

Willow.

Wouldn't it? Please, do elaborate.

Well, looks like Henry94 is starting to acknowledge the reality. He must have gone online to find out how he can renounce his citizenship!

Why don't you have a birth certificate, Henry? If you've lost it you can apply for a new one.

Billy

It wouldn't have been inaccurate because it would have been accurate. The point was about renouncing citizenship. Hence it would have been accurate for you to refer to "citizenship".

Placing to one side the sterile discussion about citizenship, what do Henry and Billy think is the meaning of the second IRA statement?

This citizenship stuuff goes around in circles -

The relevent text . . . recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish, British or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both governments.

I think that makes it clear that Irish citizens in the north have the right to claim and enjoy their Irish citizenship and not have any other citizenship imposed upon them.

However as Irish citizens residing within a part of Ireland which currenly is within the juristiction of the UK there are certain laws etc that apply i.e with regard to taxes etc. Just as if you are an IRish citizen residing within FRance for example and you are covered by the laws governing that juristiction. Also there is then the EU framework that governs the EU juristiction.

HOwever, none of this undermines the right to exclsuively hold Irish citizenship in the north or conversely UK citizenship will esiding in the south - as many of my friends do.

Willow.

``It wouldn't have been inaccurate because it would have been accurate.''

I give up.

``The point was about renouncing citizenship. Hence it would have been accurate for you to refer to "citizenship".''

But you know very well that the UK does not have citizens. The queen has subjects. That's the constitutional position. Or did the UK cease to be a Kingdom in the last 24 hours?

``What do Henry and Billy think is the meaning of the second IRA statement?''

I am profoundly depressed at the unwillingness of all the major players to do what is necessary for peace and stability. I am profoundly depressed at the willingness of some to threaten the future out of sheer bloody pique, and at the zeal of others to see calamity so that their unchanging cynicism might be vindicated.

For the first time in well over a decade I am losing hope for the future. What is at stake here is the future, and the question really, is whether we are ready for peace. Sadly, recent events, statements, actions and reactions have seriously dented my faith. This IRA statement is the latest depressing staging post in a spiral headed the wrong way.

As a society, do we deserve peace? Probably not.

I don't know if either of the IRA statement - once read in deatil - and indeed the responses of Sinn Fein - require that much clarification.

Nowhere does it say that the IRA ceasefire has ended.

ONe of the key commentries is around - SF spokesperson making it clear that they would not interpret IRA statements - and in particular sayoing that they would not be a conduit between the governments and the IRA.

This is welcome.

Sinn Fein have a pretty large mandate - some 340,000 acros the island let them stand on that and that alone - which is after all what many political opponenets have been asking for.

And then let the governments deal directly with the IRA to resolve those issues directly between themselves.

None of which deals with the fact that we were near a deal in December that would have seen a total end to the issue of arms and activities and importantly a new mode.

Also it would have seen policing progressed.

This is being lost amid the crap about the Northern Bank.

P.S did anyone see Sproule on RTE last night repeatedly saying that they had no evidence - time to get some real coppers to do the job.

"Why didn’t you tell us that earlier and save all the arguing?"

Willow I told you on the original thread that my Father was from the 26 counties I also told you my mother was from the north. Being born in the north doesn't make you a British citizen.

BTW willow there is no such thing as ROI citizenship only Irish citizenship. On my passport it says Ireland not ROI, Country of birth/origin says Ireland and county says Armagh.

"you think it might be relevant to mention that you were born in the south of southern parents"

That’s the problem Jacko, I'm not. I suggest you re-read the relevant post.

This all started when certain posters thought they had the the authority to declare me a British Citizen before finding out details.

It doesn't matter what anybody says you can't make Henry or anyone else in the 6 counties a citizen by declaring them one.

Citizen="A person owing loyalty to and entitled by birth or naturalization to the protection of a state or nation"

I doubt very much if many nationalists in the North owe loyalty to the British state unless it’s the sdlp we’re talking about ;)

slug9987

Placing to one side the sterile discussion about citizenship,

Well OK but you're going to leave willowfield wondering about my Birth Cert.

what do Henry and Billy think is the meaning of the second IRA statement?

Either they are bluffing in which case they look very stupid indeed or they are serious and are contemplating a return to war.

In either event I think the Sinn Fein leadership should consider ditching.

Thank you Billy.

The Dog

I think that makes it clear that Irish citizens in the north have the right to claim and enjoy their Irish citizenship and not have any other citizenship imposed upon them.

It doesn’t make it clear at all. It just says both governments confirm people’s rights to hold both British and Irish citizenship. It doesn’t mean ROI citizens in NI are not also UK citizens. That would require legislation.

HOwever, none of this undermines the right to exclsuively hold Irish citizenship in the north or conversely UK citizenship will esiding in the south - as many of my friends do.

That right is only possible by paying £81 to renounce citizenship.

Billy P

But you know very well that the UK does not have citizens.

I don’t know that. On the contrary, I know that it does have citizens. Stop making stuff up.

The queen has subjects. That's the constitutional position. Or did the UK cease to be a Kingdom in the last 24 hours?

Being a kingdom does not mean there are no citizens. Stop being silly. You're a strange one.

"But you know very well that the UK does not have citizens. The queen has subjects. That's the constitutional position. Or did the UK cease to be a Kingdom in the last 24 hours?"

I thought so too Billy but when I researched the relevant law i.e. British nationality act 1981 I found that the law was even more ridiculous than I first thought, they have citizens and subjects. Contradictions in terms but then again look at who you’re dealing with ;)

Henry

Thank you for giving your assessment - a serious situation, then. I don't know how the IRA could be ditched by SF or what a ditching would look like.

CG You are right. I seem to recollect that there is a thing called subject status but its not for people in the UK but a special status that commonwealth people outside the UK can apply for if they want. I am not sure though.

cg

Willow I told you on the original thread that my Father was from the 26 counties I also told you my mother was from the north.

But you didn’t say she was born in the South, which was the key piece of information. Why did you choose not to reveal this fact? It would have saved a lot of argument. (Although Henry94, bizarrely, is still claiming not to be a UK citizen, despite being born in NI of NI parents.)

Being born in the north doesn't make you a British citizen.

No-one said it did. But it does make you a British citizen if one of your parents is a British citizen. And if one of your parents was born in NI before 1983, then you’re a British citizen.

BTW willow there is no such thing as ROI citizenship only Irish citizenship.

But it’s citizenship only of ROI, not NI. That’s why I refer to ROI citizenship.

On my passport it says Ireland not ROI, Country of birth/origin says Ireland and county says Armagh.

It’s still only an ROI passport, though.

This all started when certain posters thought they had the the authority to declare me a British Citizen before finding out details.

We asked the details immediately. You refused to give them. You’ve only yourself to blame.

It doesn't matter what anybody says you can't make Henry or anyone else in the 6 counties a citizen by declaring them one.

No, but Parliament can.

I doubt very much if many nationalists in the North owe loyalty to the British state unless it’s the sdlp we’re talking about ;)

You need to look at the legislation for the definition of what it means, not your dictionary. Somebody said you were training to be a lawyer. On this evidence you’re not going to be very good.

Henry94

Well OK but you're going to leave willowfield wondering about my Birth Cert.

Go on, tell us why you don’t have a birth certificate.

cg

I thought so too Billy but when I researched the relevant law i.e. British nationality act 1981 I found that the law was even more ridiculous than I first thought, they have citizens and subjects. Contradictions in terms but then again look at who you’re dealing with ;)

How is it a contradiction in terms?

slug9987

I think a declaration by the Sinn Fein leadership that they were no longer willing to meet the IRA and a motion at an Ard Fheis declaring membership of the party incompatible with IRA membership would do the trick.

As a Sinn Fein voter I support the building of an all-Ireland party dedicated to unity by peaceful democratic means.

Willow.

You haven't actually dealt with anything I have said. What ever.

As a Sinn Fein voter I support the building of an all-Ireland party dedicated to unity by peaceful democratic means.

Why do you defend the Provo death squads, then?

"Why did you choose not to reveal this fact?"

Because it doesn't make a difference to me, my mother is as much Irish as my father is. No British imposed border will ever change that.

"We asked the details immediately. You refused to give them. You’ve only yourself to blame."

You did not but merely reiterated your position that I was a British citizen.

"Somebody said you were training to be a lawyer. On this evidence you’re not going to be very good."

LOL, you’ve been taking to David Brew ;)

Billy

I did deal with what you said. See my 2.29pm. You're a strange one, all right!

willowfield

I don't defend any death squads. I want to see the IRA disband and decommission.

Willow.

Slowly, finally, the realisation is dawning. You are a piss-taker extraordinaire. Hats off to you.

cg

Because it doesn't make a difference to me, my mother is as much Irish as my father is. No British imposed border will ever change that.

But you said your mother was born in the South, like your father, so why are you differentiating between the two.

Also, whether it makes a difference to you is irrelevant. Your failure to reveal the key fact that your mother was born in the South meant that the argument could not be concluded.

You did not but merely reiterated your position that I was a British citizen.

No. I said you must be a UK citizen if you were born in NI of at least one UK citizen parent. You refused to state that these criteria did not apply to you, therefore giving the impression that you were a UK citizen.

LOL, you’ve been taking to David Brew ;)

Well, if you use a dictionary for your definition, rather than the relevant legislation, your clients will be in trouble.

Henry94

I don't defend any death squads. I want to see the IRA disband and decommission.

Well, that's good. But you have, on other threads, defended the PIRA.

Billy P

Slowly, finally, the realisation is dawning. You are a piss-taker extraordinaire. Hats off to you.

Not sure what you're up to, Billy. You claim I didn't answer your points. I pointed out that I had, and even gave you the time. Then you say I'm a "piss-taker". Why do you say this?

willowfield

you have, on other threads, defended the PIRA.

Example?

Henry94,

You close your 02:41pm with a great vision for Sinn Fein. But its a profound change, so would require more than trick by resolution. The resolution would have to be deep, believable and real. Otherwise the rest of us (and we don't have to be your enemies) might end up giving it the same level of credence that Adams gets when he ways he was not in the IRA.

The question I have been thinking about is whether this vision for Sinn Fein emerge, with the aims you endorse, before the present leaership has stood aside? Adams and McGuinness are widely believed to be involved in both IRA and Sinn Fein. They have at least another 10 years in them and they are liked by their voters. I can see the vision you have for Sinn Fein but only after another 10-15 years.

Henry94

Tell us why you haven't got a birth certificate and I'll look out an example.

willowfield

I have a birth cert. Just not a British one. Now an example please of me defending provo death squads.

slug9987

I don't think such a change is even possible without the leadership of Adams and McGuinness. They are the key people.

So were you born in ROI?

(Will get back soon with an example.)

I was born in Armagh.

So, if you were born in Armagh, why have you not got a British birth certificate? Or are you just trying to be clever by claiming that a birth certificate from Armagh is not British?

PS. Can't be arsed trawling through threads, Henry. So I can't provide an example. Sorry.

willowfield

If you won't come up with an example then the birth-cert is off the table.

This thread has degenerated into the usual whataboutery, with he IRA getting away in the confusion - unchallenged. I contend their second statement attempts to clarify how serious they think everyone else should take them. Kind of stamping their little foot because no-one's listening. Everyone else is supposed to be scared for 'the process' and make soothing noises.

Henry94

What if I retract the comment?

Now i'm curious where you got your birth cert Henry, did you get it in a Lucky Bag? ;-))

"If you won't come up with an example then the birth-cert is off the table."

Do not underestimate the importance of this.

Scum.

The people of Ireland will not stand idly by and let pseudo-republicans bring this country to its knees.

Ni thiocfaidh bhur la. Tiocfaidh AR la when the 32 county inclusive Republic of Ireland is achieved, and people of all religious and political hues can feel safe.

willowfield

What if I retract the comment?

I think you should retract it because it's wrong not in exchange for any concession.

I am a Republican
but am nausiated by the IRA's attention-seeking crap statements. They are clearly under pressure.
I say to them unequivocally:
STOP PLAYING THE HARD MAN...
submit to legality.
now for a wank

If Henry94 was born in Armagh, then he will be able to obtain a British birth certificate and present it along with his £81 cheque to renounce his British citizenship.

Oops, he doesn't need to obtain one. He already has one. He just needs to bring it along with his cheque.

Much as I hate to wade into this pedantry, I think cg is right about the UK having both citizens and subjects. Am I right in thinking that the first paragraph of the GFA states that the sovereignty of NI lies with the people of NI? If so, surely the Queen is not our sovereign and we are therefore CITIZENS of the UK state rather than SUBJECTS of it's monarch.

Yes, of course we're citizens.

"Subject" doesn't mean anything anyway. You are a subject of a republic just as much as of a kingdom: you are subject to the laws of the republic, in the same way that you are subject to the laws of a monarch.

In a constitutional monarchy, there is no distinction with a republic, since the laws are not made by the monarch, but by parliament - same as in a republic.

Subject and citizen mean the same thing in both a republic and a constitutional monarchy.

Pendants hang.
Pedants should.

I think the time is ripe for yet another discussion on whether Ireland is the proper name for the state with 26 counties south of Newry.

Children please,
Sensible discussion please. All this citizen nonsense is so boring . Sensible blogging please.

Where have all the usual Sinn Fein apologists gone, are they in hiding?

By the Willowfield you are an Irish Citizen by birthright, whether you like it or not!

When my son was born in Canada, I sought clarification, did he need to register in some way to claim Irish citizenship, no was the reply, he is a citizen by birthright.

So can I call u a dirty Fenian Bas***d!?

Where have all the usual Sinn Fein apologists gone, are they in hiding?

They way they have been harassed in the past couple of days, are you surprised alex ?

alex s

I haven't noticed anybody missing for more than 24 hours. I think it's very amusing the way some of the 24/7 posters think they are winning an argument when their opponents have business in the real world.

Paddycanuck

By the Willowfield you are an Irish Citizen by birthright, whether you like it or not!

I have the right to be an ROI citizen by virtue of having been born on the island of Ireland, but I am not assumed to be one unless I perform some function of ROI citizenship, e.g. obtaining a passport. I have not performed such an act of citizenship, and I do not regard myself to be an ROI citizen, therefore I am not one.

When my son was born in Canada, I sought clarification, did he need to register in some way to claim Irish citizenship, no was the reply, he is a citizen by birthright.

Yes, he has the right to be one by birth, but he doesn't have to be.

So does the same apply for British Citizenship Willow?

MK

The law on British citizenship has already been set out above.

The answer is no. You are a British citizen if you were born in the UK of at least one UK citizen parent. Unless you renounce it by paying £81.

What do you consider to be the greatest proof of citizenship WF?

And would you dispute that my nationality is Irish, not British?

I've no opinion on the "greatness" of proof of citizenship.

And I don't know anything about you, so I can't answer your second question. I've no idea what your nationality is.

Ok then, would you dispute that somebody born in the six counties could term their nationality as Irish, rather than British and what do you see as the difference between nationality and citizenship?

Ok then, would you dispute that somebody born in the six counties could term their nationality as Irish, rather than British

They can "term" their nationality whatever way they want. Peruvian. Martian. It's up to them.

... and what do you see as the difference between nationality and citizenship?

Sometimes the terms are used interchangeably in law, but my view is that the former is identity and the latter is a legal status.

And do you accept a legal document such as a passport as proof of this "legal status"?

It's not up to me to accept legal documents: I don't determine citizenship.

But, yes, of course a passport can be used as proof of citizenship!

Whom does the IRA represent, exactly?

Don’t be fooled,

This whole thing has been planned by Sinn Fein/IRA for political gains.

They need to able to go out to the electorate and play the victim as usual.

Came across this earlier Paddy -

Just as the nationality of individuals in the narrow legal sense represented by the entry in a passport is a mechanism for controlling movement between states, so too nationality in the wider sense is deeply concerned with the ideological justification of both the movement and settlement of populations.

R. V. Comerford. 2003. "Ireland: Inventing the Nation". London: Hodder Arnold. Page 9.

Just as the nationality of individuals in the narrow legal sense represented by the entry in a passport

Irish passport therefore meaning Irish nationality.

nationality in the wider sense is deeply concerned with the ideological justification of both the movement and settlement of populations.

Ancestors have been firmly settled in Ireland leaving me Irish on both counts! Not that i'd needed to be convinced!