Mick, the biggest issue is that a Senior SF member has siad that SF recognises that the legitimate Government of Ireland is the IRA. Therefore the GFA has no validity in SF eyes .

What did this innocent woman do?. She showed compassion towards someone. The IRA/SF scum are further divorcing themselves from reality. How anyone can vote for such murdering filth is beyond me.

There will be no powersharing with SF ever again.They need to be ostracised and made pay for their crimes.

We are not stupid.

God Save The Queen,

It's hardly a false rap, Mick - unless the Chairman of Sinn Féin is going to stand up and declare that, in his view, there are no crimes committed in Northern Ireland?

organisations associated with Sinn Fein, otherwise it "will exit the process".

McLaughlin retorted: "that is a matter for the people of Ireland".

Considering 'the people of Ireland' voted overwhelmingly in favour of the GFA so that the IRA and all paramilitary organisations would 'exit the process' - yet 'they haven't gone away you know' - I don't really believe Mitchel's retort.

Regardless of what 'the people of Ireland' say, the republican movement will do its own thing. They are answerable to no one but themselves.

It’s a pity certain politicians wouldn't abide by the families wishes and stop using this innocent woman’s death for political purposes

It’s a pity certain politicians wouldn't abide by the families wishes and stop using this innocent woman’s death for political purposes

That's a bit rich, cg, considering this 'innocent woman’s death' was carried out by the organisations you explicitly defend, 'for political purposes' .

How is it rich ringo, I have said her death should never have occurred but her family have asked for people to stop using this woman's memory as a political football.

So it's a bit rich for you to use her memory in that way. If you wish to attack me for being what I am fine but follow the families’ wishes.

If I remember correctly, due to where Jean McConville's body was buried, this sad affair also concerns the attitude of the PRM to the legal system in the south.

Your implied criticism of certain politicians shows you are as willing to using this as a political football as McDowell.

If the politican you referred was a Sinn Feiner you wouldn't have made the comment, but you used it to portray McDowell in a poor light because of who he is.

Ringo
My comment on "certain politicians" was not my point but that of Michael McConville's.

If I wished to attack McDowell I would do it up front, as I have more than enough of my own evidence to do it.

cg

It’s a pity certain politicians wouldn't abide by the families wishes and stop using this innocent woman’s death for political purposes

Hmmm, as a Provo apologist, I wonder why you might be so keen for that to happen. Do you agree with McLaughlin’s disgusting comment that the murder of Jean McConville was not a crime?

These Provisional republicans are fast moving beyond the Pale. They’ve had ten years to clean up their act and appear unwilling to do so.

cg- have you heard the interview ?

Michael called on Mitchel to resign following his comments. Do you support that call as well ? He went on to demand an apology from Mitchel.
( If you haven't, to save you listening to it all , start 1 hour 35 minutes into the show.)

cg -

My comment on "certain politicians" was not my point but that of Michael McConville's.

Michael McConville was referring to Michael McDowell

If I wished to attack McDowell I would do it up front, as I have more than enough of my own evidence to do it.

then why did you have to resort to using Michael McConville's comments to do so?

Davros
I didn't but I will

go raibh maith agat

cg

I wonder if you would care to answer the question I posed to you above.

I'm off travelling in this cruddy weather,
Catch you later cg,
Go mbeannaí Dia duit.

Willowfield

I have already said this woman’s death should never have happened. I believe it was wrong.

And all from the draft dodger :)

There seem to be a number of questions that can usefully be put to the RM at this stage.

1. Is the Dail Eirean as currently exists the legitimate government of Ireland - as Mitchel's comments seem to cast some doubt on this?

2. Is the killing of an individual and the disposal of their body a criminal offence in the Republic?

3. By what arguement might anyone defend in court the contention that the killing of the disappeared was not a crime?

Gaskin

That wasn't really the question, was it now? Was the murder of Jean McConville a crime? Yes or no?

Furthermore, perhaps the reason why this case recieves so much attention is because the organisation which you support, both at the ballot box and through your party membership, hid her remains for more than 25 years.

Anyone who had any notion that SF/IRA has changed its evil ways, should abandon such flights of fancy, in the light of Mitchell McLaughlin's disgusting comments.

"both at the ballot box"

How could I have voted for an IRA candidate at the ballot box? The IRA doesn’t stand candidates.

I have only ever voted Sinn Féin.

Would you like to answer the question. Was it a crime for the IRA to murder Jean McConville? Given the Chairman of your party says it wasn't you should have no difficulty in saying the same.

Moderator.

IRA/Sinn Fein are the *[deleted]* and will remain so even if you delete the comment from my post.

Chris, then argue it. But spare us the gratuitous insults! Anyone can sling insults, but it doesn't take yours or anyone else's case any further forward!

Perhaps some of the unionist posters who ignored this topic on other threads would state if they believe the murder of Nora Mc Cabe was a crime and whether the perjury of the eleven RUC officers connected with the case was also a crime.

The discussion was continued today on RTE's Liveline (show should be posted soon) when SF's Cllr Christy Burke rang up to talk about the Sean Russell statue beheading. (Cheers to whoever did that by the way.)
Burke was asked if he stood over McLaughlin's comments on Q&A. He said yes, even on McConville.
But I do think he admitted that it was wrong of the IRA to blow up Nelson on O'Connell St.

According to Ed Moloney, McConville was a spy. She was warned off, but continued to do it. I'm not justifying her death (although that admission won't satisfy some people), but it did make her involved in a political conflict, and presumably her killers would come under the terms of the GFA. It's not pretty, but that would appear to be the situation.

Mick

People who murder an unarmed woman. Hide her body for more than 25 years, use it as a device to gain political leverage and refuse to describe her killing as a crime are so devoid of any moral fibre at all, that I feel entirely justified in referring to them as the scum of the earth. Better than that, they are the depraved, degenerate scum of the earth.

the assasination of jean mcconville was a not a crime. from what i know about this unfornanate incident is that Oglaigh na h-Eireann carried out this action because she collaborated with the occupying forces. thus her fate was sealed by involving herself in such counter-revolutionary activiites.

it was most unfornanate that she became invovlved in these activiites because of her young family. any would be tout knew the fate that lay in store if they were uncovered.

what happend after her assasination should not have happened and i sincerly hope that any volunteers involved were disciplined by the Army leadership.

the assasination of jean mcconville was a not a crime. from what i know about this unfornanate incident is that Oglaigh na h-Eireann carried out this action because she collaborated with the occupying forces. thus her fate was sealed by involving herself in such counter-revolutionary activiites.

it was most unfornanate that she became invovlved in these activiites because of her young family. any would be tout knew the fate that lay in store if they were uncovered.

what happend after her assasination should not have happened and i sincerly hope that any volunteers involved were disciplined by the Army leadership.

Strictly speaking, Moloney did not make the allegation but merely passed it on. Those who wish to believe it will do so no doubt, although given the implausibility of the story he could have been a little more critical.

Strictly speaking, Moloney did not make the allegation but merely passed it on. Those who wish to believe it will do so no doubt, although given the implausibility of the story he could have been a little more critical.

...given the implausibility of the story he could have been a little more critical

Interesting. What makes you see the story as "implausible"?

Do republicans regard the killing of Garda McCabe as a crime? Should McDowell have used that as a better example?

"the assasination of jean mcconville was a not a crime. from what i know about this unfornanate incident is that Oglaigh na h-Eireann carried out this action because she collaborated with the occupying forces. thus her fate was sealed by involving herself in such counter-revolutionary activiites.

it was most unfornanate that she became invovlved in these activiites because of her young family. any would be tout knew the fate that lay in store if they were uncovered.

what happend after her assasination should not have happened and i sincerly hope that any volunteers involved were disciplined by the Army leadership"

Good God, are you for real?

cg

I have already said this woman’s death should never have happened. I believe it was wrong.

Yes, I know, but I asked you if it was a crime. Why won't you answer?

Young Republican

the assasination of jean mcconville was a not a crime.

It was. Murder is and was against the criminal law in Northern Ireland.

Having said that, at least you are prepared to nail your colours to the mast (vile as those views may be), unlike Mr. Gaskin and others who have prevaracated and refuse to answer a simple question.

as reagrds garda mccabe, general Army orders prohibit the engagement of state froces in the 26 counites. the killing of garda mccabe was thus a breach of Oglaigh na h-Eireann genral orders.

it should not have happened, but the continuing imprisonment of the castlerea five is unjust. they are political prisoners movivated by political aspirations and thus should have been relaeased as part of GFA.

as for jean mcconville it is a most unfortunate incident but that was the nature of the war and she knew the risks she was undertakin by collabarating with the British Crown Forces.

Willofield

Gaskin is hiding over on the other thread re. the SDLP.

The radio story requires one to believe that the only radio transmitters ever issued to civilians were given to this woman, the second after she was compromised, and that the IRA subsequently mislaid both of them. The ten children in flat would have to have missed them too. One also has to ignore the fact that previous versions of the story from the IRA were and are now admitted to be lies.

For the true believer, of course, the alternative is to believe the IRA capable of a sectarian murder, and for them I suppose the "radio" story is easier to accept.

Stalford

I presume you meant to say prevaricated and not “prevaricated”. I have answered you question stalford on another thread. The reason for my absence was an exam.

Willow I will give you the same reply

I repeat that her death should never have occurred and was wrong.
That said I don't believe the IRA was, are or ever will be criminals

Young Republican

Is Mary McAleese not the head of Oglaigh na h-Eireann and the Gardai?

Stalford

I don't hide from anyone

Stalford

I hide from no one

Right enough it'd be hard to miss you!

The radio story requires one to believe that the only radio transmitters ever issued to civilians were given to this woman, the second after she was compromised, and that the IRA subsequently mislaid both of them. The ten children in flat would have to have missed them too. One also has to ignore the fact that previous versions of the story from the IRA were and are now admitted to be lies.

So why did Moloney believe it and retell it?

"Right enough it'd be hard to miss you"

Listen Milkey bar kid If you have something to say spit it out

HA HA!

Mary McAleese could very well be the head of Oglaigh na h-Eireann.

i don't know.

cg, do you disagree with the assasination of touts?

cg, do you disagree with the assasination of touts?

i agree with you that it was most unfortunate but no-one forced her to spy against her own community and she should have known better to expose her family to such suffering and angusish.

"cg, do you disagree with the assassination of touts?"

In certain circumstances, I agree with it

But I am not convinced this woman was a "tout" as there is no real evidence.

Perhaps some of the unionist posters who ignored this topic on other threads would state if they believe the murder of Nora Mc Cabe was a crime and whether the perjury of the eleven RUC officers connected with the case was also a crime.

JD, I was puzzled that he repeated it without question. You'd have to ask him. I thought that passage of the book was sloppy. If he did believe it he should have said why.

the killing of garda mccabe was thus a breach of Oglaigh na h-Eireann genral orders.

This is curious.

McCabe's killing was a very specific breach of the IRA's own general orders - punishable by death, if I remember correctly - and yet you can't say if it was a crime, while SF actually campaigned for their release.

Should McCabe's killers be executed when they are eventually released, according to IRA rules? In the eyes of the Irish people, are they criminals or not?

If mainstream republicans can't even abide by their OWN standards, what chance is there of them accepting ANY standard rule of law?

Gonzo, I always assumed that "rule" was for public consumption. They have always carried out criminal activities in the RoI using weapons which inevitably have been used against the Gardai. It's hardly an unforseeable consequence.

The reason for my absence was an exam.

For your career's sake let's hope it wasn't criminal law!
The elements of murder are established in the criminal codes of NI, the RoI (if the crime took place there)and probably every member state of the EU. The only distinguishing feature is the identity of the perpetrators, because presumably this would be a crime if the UVF, INLA or Salvation Army did it.

So, with a bit more embarassment than a more experienced apologist for murder in your party Chairman, we now see you forced to deny what your education- and, one hopes( but doubts), your conscience is screaming at you: namely the complete inconsistency between what you claim not to be a crime, and what demonstrably is.

But that would make your IRA heroes criminals, and you couldn't have that. I ask again from another thread- if it happened post 1998 would it still not be a crime?

Perhaps with your legal background you could help us by codifying those things that are crimes and those that aren't. For starters, with just a yes or no, are these crimes?:
a/ robbing the Northern Bank
b/ shooting anti -social elements in the knees
c/laundering illegal diesel and cigarettes
d/holding people hostage
e/ ordering people out of Northern ireland
f/importing weapons
g/hijacking lorries of cigarettes
h/shooting dead a census collector
i/blowing up a hotel full of sheepdog trial enthusiasts and burning many of them to death
j/killing two small boys in Warringtonk/ killing a "Brit"-definition variable,known only to the perpetrator

We'll make a lawyer of you yet, before we're finished with you.

cg

Willow I will give you the same reply. I repeat that her death should never have occurred and was wrong. That said I don't believe the IRA was, are or ever will be criminals

In other words, you don’t think it was a crime: so why were you scared to say so directly?

Since when did abduction and murder become legal, and since when was the IRA exempt from the law? Your views are appalling and sickening.

cg is one of the few people prepared to come here and properly discuss very difficult, complex and emotive issues rather that retreat into silence or regurgitation of Adams-speak. I think he deserves respect for that and less hostility.

No-one who defends murderers deserves respect.

Then don't complain if you are not treated with respect if and when you defend people that republicans consider murderers.

I can't say I agree with much of what CG sayz but i'll echo Dav and say fair dues to him for coming on here and arguing his case.

properly discuss very difficult, complex and emotive issues rather that retreat into silence or regurgitation of Adams-speak. I think he deserves respect for that

In fairness Davros, cg has played word games in the past few days.

If he answers the two questions I'm thinking of in a non-evasive manner then he's entitled to respect regardless of his opinions. Otherwise he's just playing the same games.

cg -

Was the McConville killing a crime?

Does he rule out violence as a method for attaining a united Ireland?

Davros

Then don't complain if you are not treated with respect if and when you defend people that republicans consider murderers.

I never, and would never, defend murderers. I am entirely opposed to murder. If republicans believe that I defend people who they "consider to be murderers" (whatever that means), they are free to challenge me about it.

[Mr McLaughlin said]

I was pressing the minister for justice on the lack of action on outstanding issues such as collusion, criminality at the heart of the British Government as far as republicans are concerned and I think, on the ropes, the minister threw in Jean McConville.

The minister?

The minister in whose government?

If the IRA is the legitimate government as he claims, then would he not be better pushing 'the government' on what went wrong at Shankill and an inquiry into Claudy?

Such irrational, fictitious and offensive nonsense runs directly contrary to the will of the people of Ireland and makes any form of negotiation impossible.

Perhaps some of the unionist posters who ignored this topic on other threads would state if they believe the murder of Nora Mc Cabe was a crime and whether the perjury of the eleven RUC officers connected with the case was also a crime.

I'm not a unionist, but self-evidently if proved beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law, then of course it's a crime.

Now, back to the subject, re SF's view that the IRA is the legitimate government of Ireland, care to comment...?

Ringo - word games is what debate is all about.
He's not P O'Neill making statements ( I hope! )

WF- I didn't say you would defend murder or murderers. I said what republicans would consider murder. Huge difference.

To go by the Two Traditions model fossilised by the GFA, I'm assuming that you would not consider the killings of IRA volunteers on what they consider active service to have been murder ? Many republicans do consider killings such as the Gibraltar 3 to have been murder. I'm assuming that you would defend those who killed them ? If that example doesn't work, would you defend those who killed the IRA men attacking Loughgall ? If yes, then you are defending what republicans consider to have been murder.

IJP- Unless SF issue a clarification denying that They regard the IRA as the legitimate government of Ireland, Mitchel has let the cat out of the bag. SF do not regard the Belfast agreement as binding on them. It's dead.

Mitchell starting to feel the pressure and letting the mask slip perchance?

david- he was out of his depth. As Newton E. pointed out but in a circus context rather than my cricket ( what a Victory in South Africa !) , Gerry is sending others in to bat rather than face hostile bowling himself.

Davros

WF- I didn't say you would defend murder or murderers. I said what republicans would consider murder. Huge difference.

And I said that if republicans believe that I defend people who they "consider to be murderers" (whatever that means), they are free to challenge me about it. I'm unaware of who these people are whom I defend and whom they "consider to be murderers".

To go by the Two Traditions model fossilised by the GFA, I'm assuming that you would not consider the killings of IRA volunteers on what they consider active service to have been murder ?

Er, it entirely depends on the circumstances. If they were killed in self-defence then, obviously they weren't murdered. If they were murdered, then they were murdered.

Many republicans do consider killings such as the Gibraltar 3 to have been murder.

Then they are very confused people, because, as far as I understand, republicans consider themselves to have been fighting a "war", hence the engagement of "soldiers" of one "army" by another is entirely legitimate.

I'm assuming that you would defend those who killed them ?

I defend those who protect society from terrorism. If that involves lawful killing, then yes I will defend them. If soldiers murder people, then no, I won't defend them.

If that example doesn't work, would you defend those who killed the IRA men attacking Loughgall ?

Certainly, yes. Those were lawful killings done in response to a terrorist attack.

If yes, then you are defending what republicans consider to have been murder.

Then (a) republicans are wrong, since the European Court found the killings to be lawful, and (b) republicans are hypocrites, since they claim to have been fighting a "war", in which case they cannot claim that killings of one "army" by another as part of that "war" were murder.

Willow
To take the example of the Gibraltar 3, many people would consider those to be murders since the 3 were, AFAIK, unarmed.
And even in a war situation, as we have seen in Iraq, not all killings are "entirely legitimate".

So do you defend the SAS for "protect[ing] society from terrorism" or condemn them for murder?

Davros -

Ringo - word games is what debate is all about.

I disagree: debate is defined as 'to engage in argument by discussing opposing points'.
Unless we can first determine whether we do indeed have opposing views we cannot engage in debate. cg has refused to take a definitive position.

Firstly I wish to apologise for my absence until now but I had an exam, a politics exam David, Criminal was on Saturday. I also have a hangover ;)

David brew

"we now see you forced to deny what your education- and, one hopes( but doubts), your conscience is screaming at you"

I am perfectly aware of what the law says on the subject but
That does not change my belief that the IRA are’nt weren’t or ever will be criminals.

As for you list of questions
I am not your performing seal to jump through hoops for your amusement. As a whole none of these activities are criminal in the context of war.

BTW David I am still looking for that conscience ;)

"We'll make a lawyer of you yet, before we're finished with you"

LOL, I am only studying law to learn the rules of the enemy ;)

.................................................
Ringo

I have answered your first question.

Secondly I don't rule anything out when deciding how to achieve a united Ireland.
.................................................
Willowfield

"I never, and would never, defend murderers"

Neither have I
.................................................
Davros

"He's not P O'Neill making statements ( I hope! )"

LOL, I wouldn't be worthy of such an honor ;)

David Brew

"But that would make your IRA heroes criminals"

Just for clarification, I don’t consider any IRA volunteers "heroes".

They were ordinary men and women who did extraordinary things in extraordinary times.

Let me get this straight, McLaughingboy is under the impression that he had McDowell "on the ropes"?

cg -
I have answered your first question.

Any chance you could either point me to it or alternatively do so again? Thanks.

"I am perfectly aware of what the law says on the subject but
That does not change my belief that the IRA are’nt weren’t or ever will be criminals.

As for you list of questions
I am not your performing seal to jump through hoops for your amusement. As a whole none of these activities are criminal in the context of war."

what an informative post! Cg tells us that the rules of law are the rules of the enemy- perhaps too candid for the armani suit brigade, but confirming the dubious commitment of the Shinners to international standards. Mind you shouldn't the enemy really be known as "our partners in the process" these days?

And the "things happen in a war" theory is trotted out to defend a list of acts most of the rest of us think of as crimes INCLUDING THE NORTHERN BANK ROBBERY, which of course happened after long after the Agreement to which SF is a party.

Both as a putative lawyer and more especially as a Shinner, cg knows to be careful in his choice of words. He says robbing the bank would not be a crime in a war, which is a pretty clear signal that if the IRA had carried it out then that would be ok by him, unless he also says the war is over- noticably lacking from his response. So the manoeuvring is clearly to prevent himself being placed in the invidious position of being caught calling the Provos criminals if/when they're caught-yup, even cg has doubts about P O'Neill's denial and is leaving himself wriggle room

"They were ordinary men and women who did extraordinary things in extraordinary times."

you bet- and I listed some of them @ 9.18. The addition of the adjective "evil" after "extraordinary" would complete this sentence
particularly since you "don't rule anything out when deciding how to achieve a united Ireland".

In all sincerity I want to give cg some advice, which he won't listen to now, but I hope later. Print off this page, and some day when you're older read it again and be appalled at the moral bankruptcy you have displayed. No true republican in the tradition of Tone would tolerate such cynicism and nor should you. But then as long as Shinners are trapped in this mindset they'll never win.

Chucky R Law

To take the example of the Gibraltar 3, many people would consider those to be murders since the 3 were, AFAIK, unarmed.

It is possible to kill unarmed people without the killing being murder. But AFAIK the Gibraltar killings were found to be unlawful by the ECHR. Whether there is any distinction between "unlawful killing" and "murder", I don't know. Presumably not.

And even in a war situation, as we have seen in Iraq, not all killings are "entirely legitimate".

Did someone say otherwise?

So do you defend the SAS for "protect[ing] society from terrorism" or condemn them for murder?

Both. I applaud their defence of society. If they murdered people then I condemn them.

cg

I am perfectly aware of what the law says on the subject but That does not change my belief that the IRA are’nt weren’t or ever will be criminals.

You've just contradicted yourself. If you acknowledge that abduction and murder are crimes, and that the IRA abducted and murdered then, by definition, they are criminals.

Neither have I

You have. You are defending the Provisional IRA.

David brew

"even cg has doubts about P O'Neill's denial and is leaving himself wriggle room"

Not true, I firmly believe the IRA was not behind the northern bank job.

David you view IRA men/women as evil, I view them as patriots.

"and some day when you're older read it again and be appalled at the moral bankruptcy you have displayed"

I will never be appalled at being republican. I have not shown moral bankruptcy, I hold my beliefs close to my heart and will never be ashamed of them. Nor will I be told I should be ashamed of them.
.................................................
Willowfield

"You've just contradicted yourself"

No I haven't

Just because some judge from a homogenous white background says something is wrong doesn't make it so. I was merely stating my knowledge of the criminal law.

"You have. You are defending the Provisional IRA."

Exactly and they are not criminals.

cg

No I haven't. Just because some judge from a homogenous white background says something is wrong doesn't make it so. I was merely stating my knowledge of the criminal law.

Nobody mentioned anything about judges from "homogenous white backgrounds".

You acknowledge that abduction and murder are crimes. You acknowledge that the PIRA abducted and murdered McConville. By the simplest of logic, therefore, you acknowledge that the PIRA are criminals. Yet you deny this. Your sophistry is so obvious as to be pathetic.

Exactly and they are not criminals.

See above.

Willowfield

Murder is a common law offence and as such it is the judiciary who set the parameters as to what the Mens rea and the Actus reus should be in practice.

That is why I brought up the failings of the judiciary.

"You acknowledge that abduction and murder are crimes"

I didn't do any such thing. I acknowledged that the Law views them as a crime.

"By the simplest of logic"

When dealing with the North of Ireland simple is a word not often used.

IJP,

'I'm not a unionist, but self-evidently if proved beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law, then of course it's a crime.'

Alliance is a unionist party so don't be ridiculous.

It has to get to a court of law to meet your criteria. If the DPP takes a decision to prosecute or it is not in the public interest to prosecute then what happens to justice.

The police murdered an innocent woman, they lied at the time and later to the inquest. It was only when TV evidence was produced that a semblance of the truth was revealed.

For their punishment some of these murderers got promoted, one to Asst Chief Constable.

IJP,

To answer your other point, quite clearly , in my opinion, the IRA is not the legitimate government of Ireland.

"If the DPP takes a decision to prosecute or it is not in the public interest to prosecute then what happens to justice."

Justice is not a primary concern of the British legal system

"Nor will I be told I should be ashamed of them."

La Mon
Claudy
Bloody Friday
Teebane
Kingsmills
Birmingham

Yeah, you be proud of that little list for starters, and then don't complain when the world moves on without you

cg

I didn't do any such thing. I acknowledged that the Law views them as a crime.

If the law views them as crimes, then they are crimes. That is what the law is for.

How do you view murder and abduction?

davidbrew

Bloody Sunday
Dundalk bombing
Seamus Ludlow
Pat Finucane
Rosemary Nelson
Dublin/Monaghan Bombing
Miami Showband
Fergal Carragher
Peter Cleary

You see David I have lists as well

willow

"If the law views them as crimes, then they are crimes"

That is not what you said, you said..

"You acknowledge that abduction and murder are crimes"

Which I did not

cg,
The IRA stated that the Adare robbery was not sanctioned.

Under the IRA's operating rule 8, the forces of the southern Irish state (Gardai and army) are not to be engaged under any circumstances.

These guys carried out an unsanctioned act during which they murdered a Garda in cold blood, shooting him through a window. Surely that is a crime under the IRA's own rules and deserves a courtmartial. I haven't heard them mention any courtmartials or do you believe soldiers in war don't commit crimes?

More importantly, what does Sinn Fein do? It sends its five TDs for a photoshoot in support of these guys, three of whom, as far as I know, are known Limerick gangland thugs who would sell their mothers to the UVF if they thought it was worthwhile.

"Under the IRA's operating rule 8, the forces of the southern Irish state (Gardai and army) are not to be engaged under any circumstances"

I agree

"Surely that is a crime under the IRA's own rules and deserves a courtmartial. I haven't heard them mention any courtmartials or do you believe soldiers in war don't commit crimes?"

It would seem so but how the army disciplines their volunteers is a matter for the army.

"Dundalk
Pat Finucane
Rosemary Nelson
Dublin/Monaghan Bombing
Miami Showband

You see David I have lists as well"

Yes but unlike you I can recognise these to be crimes . I don'tknow anything about Mr Ludlow or Mr Cleary so can't comment. I don't yet know enough whether any of the killings at Bloody Sunday were crimes, though some may possibly have been, and saville will doubtless establish some of the truth of that.

On the other hand you don't regard any of my list as crimes, you don't condemn the perpetrators, and you belong to an organisation linked to and supportive of the people who did the killings.

"t would seem so but how the army disciplines their volunteers is a matter for the army."

How lame is that? Don't you have a view-or is it too dangerous to express one-as to whether anact clearly contrary to their own rule book is contrary to the "armed struggle"? You're making Mitchel on Monday night look positively staesmanlike

David

I was asked by George if I considered their actions to be contrary of Rule 8 of the Armies General Orders and as such should it give rise to a court martial. I gave George my opinion that it is up to the Army to discipline their volunteers and not me.

What’s wrong with that?

"How lame is that?"

I didn't give the answer you were hoping for, I am sorry ;)

"as to whether anact clearly contrary to their own rule book"

I clearly said it was contrary to General orders.

cg,
thanks for the answer.

Do you believe it was appropriate for Sinn Fein's five TDs to show support (photoshoot) to men who should have been courtmartialed by the IRA for their unsanctioned actions, which included a bank robbery and Garda murder that could have resulted in hundreds of other IRA volunteers not getting early release under the GFA?

cg

That is not what you said, you said.. "You acknowledge that abduction and murder are crimes" ... Which I did not

So you don't acknowledge that abduction and murder are crimes?? You say abduction and murder are not crimes.

That is incredible. What kind of society do you promote - 1930s Soviet Union? Nazi Germany? Idi Amin's Uganda? Pol Pot's Cambodia? Pinochet's Chile.

Your views are beyond the Pale of civilised society. If this kind of thinking is common within Provisional Sinn Féin it must be exposed. Society cannot tolerate a party that promotes barbarism.

"I gave George my opinion that it is up to the Army to discipline their volunteers and not me."

.. and so,by your logic, if the Parachute regiment have looked into "Bloody Sunday" and decided not to take any action against any soldier that's all right then?
Haven't you learned to think for yourself instead of mouth the party line ?

Do you believe it was appropriate for Sinn Fein's five TDs to show support (photoshoot) to men who should have been courtmartialed by the IRA for their unsanctioned actions, which included a bank robbery and Garda murder that could have resulted in hundreds of other IRA volunteers not getting early release under the GFA?

It is hard to fathom this one. The cynic in me says that it was a strategic ploy on the part of SF to create an exit strategy from the last round of talks: pin the deal on something that is outlandish, so you'll be told "no." I believe Bertie called their bluff by not saying "no."

Do you believe it was appropriate for Sinn Fein's five TDs to show support (photoshoot) to men who should have been courtmartialed by the IRA for their unsanctioned actions, which included a bank robbery and Garda murder that could have resulted in hundreds of other IRA volunteers not getting early release under the GFA?

Posted by: George

of course it was right for the TDs to visist these men. the Reoublican community cannot abondan ordinary men who took up the fight against british occupation. granted, what they were involved in in what led to their capture should not have happened, but to abondan volunteers of Ireland would not be thinkable to any right-minded Irishman.

you obsivously do not understand the spirit of the Republican community.

as for the case of Bloody Sunday and other British state sanctioned murders,do not forget that in these cases the subjects (sic) of the state were the victims

the very same subjects (sic) the brits are claiming to protect and be equals in this rotten 6 county statelet.

The British Occupation of Adare? They managed to hush that one up.

The British Occupation of Adare? They managed to hush that one up.

Posted by: Jimmy Sands

they were volunteers of Oglaigh n-Eireann and as such joined the Army to end the British occupation of North-East Ireland.

The Green Book states that IRA members are not to engage with the Gardai. It says it is punishable by death, not to be supported by a campaign for release.

If the IRA can't abide by its own rules and doesn't recognise anyone else's, that is of concern to those who want to serve in a government that is fundamentally based on trust.

Because trust doesn't exist any more.

"cg,
thanks for the answer.

Do you believe it was appropriate for Sinn Fein's five TDs to show support (photoshoot) to men who should have been courtmartialed by the IRA for their unsanctioned actions"

YES

Even though it was against prison rules cg ?

Yes

"they were volunteers of Oglaigh n-Eireann and as such joined the Army to end the British occupation of North-East Ireland."

Were they lost?

How would you assess their contribution to the struggle for freedom?

Young Republican

they were volunteers of Oglaigh n-Eireann and as such joined the Army to end the British occupation of North-East Ireland.

There was no British occupation of North-East Ireland, so your reasoning for people joining the IRA is nonsensical.

cg, a member of Provisional SF, has said that abduction and murder are not crimes. I find it disturbing that a member of one of the leading political parties in NI is able to make a public statement in support of barbarism without censure from any other posters.

It's not as simple as that Willowfield.

any chance of cg answering mine of yesterday @ 3.59 p.m.?

If he's consistent he'll be condemning the Saville Inquiry as a waste of time and money ( except for the legal costs, of course- that's never a waste)

the legal costs, of course- that's never a waste

Even for lawyers employed by the PFC ? ;)

Davros

cg has said he doesn't consider abduction and murder to be crimes.

Do you disagree that a society in which such activities are legal would be a barbaric society?

I think it is more productive to express one's own opinion, discuss so that one can understand from where he is coming and try to persuade rather than censure.

Willowfieeld

"cg has said he doesn't consider abduction and murder to be crimes"

I didn't say that

Willow
Seems to want a return to the old days of discrimination and censure and he has the bloody cheek to question my morals.

cg,
would you not agree that by supporting these men, Sinn Fein is not supporting IRA volunteers because these boyos certainly weren't.

These guys (I don't even think all were in the IRA, 3 are Limerick gangsters - open to correction there) were not on active service, were contravening orders and perpetrated a murder that was not only contrary to a direct standing military order, punishable by death, but also jeopardised the release of hundreds of their comrades.

You speak of morals but this action of going to support them in prison looks like the moral equivalent of all the MPs of some pro-union party visiting murderer Lee Clegg in prison for a photoshoot to show they supported the British Army.

Or is there a difference?

cg

I didn't say that

You refused to acknowledge that they were crimes, thus you must believe them not to be crimes. If you are saying that this conclusion is wrong, then you must clarify your position.

Seems to want a return to the old days of discrimination and censure and he has the bloody cheek to question my morals.

Perhaps you would explain why you have made the above statement.

"Or is there a difference?"

well, yes actually George. The British army didn't say they weren't involved, then admit they were, and claim it was part of their remit.

Looks like cg won't answer my post of yesterday. It's almost like he knows he has no case to argue. He hasn't even tried to smear me like poor old Willow as wanting the good old bad old days back -and Willow isn't even a "rejectionist"!

Not until the IRA win and become the government, then its a crime to be prosecuted in the Hague with more than a few others.

Tiofach ar la

Note cg's refusal to clarify his views on the criminality of abducting and murdering.