Absolutement
Am I wrong in thinking though that it's not the sole responsibility for SF to achieve this?
Gerry Adams consistently says he's against any criminal activity.
I do not think anyone is working harder to move the process forward than him and his party.

Mr Boru,

If you honestly think that all of SF are doing their outmost to push the process forward then you are clearly being fooled.
The Provos are effectively back in action. SF cannot hold together their people. The IRA are in charge of SF not the other way around.

TT
I wish I had your certainty
one way or the other I'd dearly like to know.
Because if you're right then I'm even more depressed than I was

Ah, for the good old days.

"The IRA are in charge of SF not the other way around"

cgmoron, sorry TT please show evidence for your previous statement

And Val would have known.

As I recall it wasn't that long after de Valera rebuked the IRA before he acted quite firmly against them with the Treason Act. 600 odd jailed or interned after the IRA resumed hostilities. Would Bertie have the spherical objects ?

"Would Bertie have the spherical objects?"

"Bertie" and "spherical objects" do not belong in the same sentence Dav.

'And Val would have known.'

What Doonican an expert on the IRA, no wonder a lot of the stories emanating from 'sources' are so unbelievable.

Exclusive Paddy Mc Ginntys goat on Army Council, a Sindo spectacular.

TT

``If you honestly think that all of SF are doing their outmost to push the process forward then you are clearly being fooled.''

There's nothing clear about it. The internal dynamics of the republican movement probably aren't even clear to those on the inside. We on the outside can only guess and, depressingly, hardly anyone seems willing to countenance anything that it isn't political convenient to countenance.

``The Provos are effectively back in action.''

Love the way a well-chosen qualifying word can lend plausible deniability to a flat-out lie. A bit like when people refer to the GAA as `quasi' racist or whatever.

All I can say is that you can't be more than 20 TT, and you don't know what Troubled Times are. Anyone who actually remembers when the provos were ``effectively'' in action can remember what ``effectively'' means. It means families full of people just like you and your mum and dad getting blown to smithereens when they're out doing their shopping. It means the kind of security crackdowns on nationalists areas that make ``Up the 'Ra'' seem like an eminently reasonable and in some areas noble sentiment. If you were more than a child you would know the meaning of the word spiral.

(You might also have noticed to closure of Killymeal barracks in Dungannon last week - former citadel of the state forces who went ballistic against the east Tyrone IRA in the '80s and early '90s. They were among the most ``effective'' IRA units at the time. You wouldn't remember that though. `Loughgall' is just a rhetotical flourish to you.

You might have reflected that if Killymeal barracks are closing down, then surely the security forces think provos are ``effectively'' doing a bit of winding-down of their own.

But sure never let the facts get in the way. They can be so inconvenient.)

``SF cannot hold together their people. The IRA are in charge of SF not the other way around.''

You do not - cannot - know that and have no basis for making the statement other than your own desire for it to be true. You're an unreconstructed peddler of the insane, homicidal peace-through-victory strategy.

Now, where's me ballot box and armalite?

"Now, where's me ballot box and armalite?"

There are those who would say better that than Ballot box and Carmelite ;)

Davros.

Always thought the Carmelites sounded much tastier than they actually were.

I didn't realise you had been to the Martyrs Memorial on one of the feast days ;)

Billy Pilgrim,
The East Tyrone brigade of sf/ira was taken to task and dealt many a blow by the security forces true. May I remind you though they killed many people without mercy. So the fact that they met their maker the way they did bears truth to the old saying If you live by the sword.
Billy by the way tt is like a breath of fresh air and regardless of his age is entitled to his opinion.

Firstly Cg, I am disappointed to inform you that I am not Cgmoron, however thanks for the compliment.

How dare you insult me BP!!!

I know and have seen more IRA crap in my life than you have probably seen in your entire life. I am in my 30's and have witnessed some of the worst atrocities at first hand.
The reason why I am anit Sinn Fein is because I know what they are like. I have seen their two faced approach.
Adams and McGuinness are not angels doing their best to make peace, they are cool and calculated generals whose aim is to advance the Republican IRA agenda. They dont give a single f### about peace, trust me, this is a FACT!!!

Cg, the evidence that the IRA are in charge of SF is the heist at the Northern Bank. I know you dont believe the IRA had anything to do with it but all in good time you will see the evidence.

CG
Did you recieve your intelligence from Hugh Orde and Noel Conroy?
And I thought wannabe lawyers had some intelligence.
Your assumption is like your normal postings detached from reality and way off the mark.

Didn’t mean to insult you TT. It’s just that your opinions and your style are so, well, hormonal.

cgmoron

I hope you did not infer any support for the east Tyrone IRA in my post – I assure you there was none. I said the security forces went ballistic in east Tyrone in the mid 80s-early 90s period. I stand by that 100%. I said the east Tyrone IRA were among the most ``effective’’ IRA units – having earlier defined this ``effectivness’’ by talking about the massacre of families on shopping trips.

So when you say: ``May I remind you though they killed many people without mercy,’’ all I can say is, read my bloody posts.

``If you live by the sword.’’

This is undoubtedly true, though I think you should consider the possibility that it’s a double-edged sword. You make this point only towards your enemies. Such a lack of self-awareness and the pomposity it creates are two of the major obstacles to a rational discussion that we face in this place.

``TT is like a breath of fresh air and regardless of his age is entitled to his opinion.’’

Certainly he is entitled to his opinion, as I am entitled to challenge it. But as the major violence of the troubles recedes in memory there will be more and more youthful voices emerging who do not remember the nightmare. If those voices are sanguine about future conflict then their age becomes a significant factor. I accept that TT is old enough to remember the nightmare. He may even have lost someone close to him, I don’t know. But it’s sad that perspective has not come with his years, and that he still largely accepts the dominant us=good, themmuns=bad axiom.

It’s sad that that axiom will no doubt be passed on to future generations, and particularly dangerous given that they, unlike we, will not have a fucking clue what they’re doing when they bang the drums of war.

Ok BP. Maybe my hormonalism comes from the fact that I see people supporting certain political opinions from a stance of ignorance. All I want to see is that people see the truth - thats all. I dont have an opinion of us versus them.
I just dont like the way SF have played with us for the past 10 years.
Remember the TUAS strategy? Did it mean Towards UnArmed Struggle? Or did it mean Tactical Use of Armed Struggle?
Are SF genuine when they talk about peace?

Are SF genuine when they talk about peace?

That depends on what you mean by "SF" and "Peace".

Can you elaborate Davros?

Do you mean the leaders of SF or the general party ?
And what do they mean by "peace" ? According to
the IRA they are already at peace with the rest of us. Remember the dictum - Ireland unfree shall never be at peace ... is that what they mean when they call for peace ? Brits out is the only peace they will recognise as in their minds there can be NO peace until they get their way ? The SF leadership and the IRA have played word games from the beginning. I don't doubt that the vast majority of SF voters want what I would define as Peace - an absence of politically motivated violence regardless of the acceptability of the political situation. However I wonder if that definition would be acceptable to the IRA or SF leadership ? I doubt it.

I agree Davros. Lets see what SF supporters make about your comments.
What SF want, what IRA want, what SF voters want? Are they all different? Is peace only achieved in Ireland when Ireland is United. Can anyone elaborate?

I know I've been away for a 1000 years.. but
Isn't the reason why the bombs have stopped because its been acepted by the IRA that the pusuance of the goal of a United Ireland is to be through political means.. hence SF and their leaders are busy with their electoral stategy and all the meetings with the other parties.
So TT prove to me how you know SF are lying?
When they say they do not support criminality
of any kind?

I cannot give you documented proof Mr Boru on anything over the web. But I would ask you to seek clarity on some of these things: the Colombia Three, the Break In at Castlereagh, the Northern Bank robbery, alleged spying at Stormont, Back Alley Punishment Attacks, Weaponry coming in from Florida, Man shot dead in Co Armagh and nobody knows where his body is....the list goes on.
Do you not find it strange that all of these incidents, according to the Republican movement are either false or have nothing to do with them? Would you agree with me that somebody is lying somewhere?
Do you think that the Colombia Three (you know the guys that Sinn Fein MLA Catriona Ruane campaigned for) were just on holiday in Colombia, perfectly innocent?
Did you believe the IRA and Sinn Fein when they said they had nothing to do with the murder of Garda McCabe, even though they were found to be lying? Did you believe them then?
Whose lying? Whose telling the truth? Something doesnt weigh up!

When they say they do not support criminality
of any kind?

The problem is that as SF's idea of criminality doesn't include abducting and murdering a widowed mother of ten ( what was that about respect Mary Lou ? ) when it is done by the IRA your question is meaningless. In SF's eyes the IRA could go back tomorrow to shooting policemen and soldiers and placing napalm-like bombs at restaurants and SF would still support the IRA and still deny that they are criminals.

Ahh I see Davros
The whole of IRA criminality is seen by the IRA in terms of the wider criminality of British Rule.
Who's right and who's wrong?

There is no "wider criminality" of "British rule".

Who's right and who's wrong? Those who say the Provos were/are criminals are right; and those who say they were/aren't are wrong.

Willowfield that's a shameful piece of propaganda
So you're saying the Easter 1916 rebels are all criminals ..
and anyone who won't lie down and take it up the arse in any political situation in the world, past present future is a criminal if they try to resist.
Is this what you are suggesting?

BB- if you accord the right to the IRA to define whether it's acts are criminal or not, then how can you refuse the same right to the UDA and the UVF ?

"Firstly Cg, I am disappointed to inform you that I am not Cgmoron"

Yea right, it’s very coincidental that you both post the exact same message but word it differently; it’s very worrying when a person has to invent someone else in order to compliment their views. You are clearly an sdlp member/supporter who is trying to bring the sdlp back from the brink of oblivion and that’s fine but at least have the courage to admit that.

"Cg, the evidence that the IRA are in charge of SF is the heist at the Northern Bank"

Great finally someone has evidence of IRA involvement. Will you be so kind as to post that evidence here?

"CG
Did you recieve your intelligence from Hugh Orde and Noel Conroy?"

The people you mentioned are some what limited in that department. I, unlike you, am a member of Sinn Féin. I have attended many different meetings and I have seen no evidence whatsoever of the IRA controlling Sinn Féin. If you have evidence to support this ridiculous claim then again I ask for you to show it otherwise stop making unfounded allegations about things which you have no knowledge of.

"Your assumption is like your normal postings detached from reality and way off the mark"

Again any person who has to invent a secondary person in order for someone to agree with that point of view is in no position to talk about anyone’s grasp of reality
.................................................
Davros

I don't accept your presentation of Sinn Féin's position with regarding peace. Sinn Féin wants a total end to the armed struggle and we have full confidence that our objectives can be accomplished by political means but we recognise that a resolution to the issues of conflict will only be resolved through reunification.

Sinn Féin wants a total end to the armed struggle and we have full confidence that our objectives can be accomplished by political means but we recognise that a resolution to the issues of conflict will only be resolved through reunification.

Is that not a carefully worded way of saying that there cannot and will not be peace until the Brits are out ? ;)

Brian Boru

Willowfield that's a shameful piece of propaganda

How's that?

So you're saying the Easter 1916 rebels are all criminals ..

When did I say that?

and anyone who won't lie down and take it up the arse in any political situation in the world, past present future is a criminal if they try to resist.

That obviously depends on whether or not they break the law.

Is this what you are suggesting?

Er, obviously no!

Not sure where you coming from with all this!

Davros

My statement is more than clear its like Ronseal

Does exactly what it says on the tin ;)

P.S I know that was the worst joke ever

Oops I felt that one Davros
I could say
"Well it ain't their country "

I'm glad the ceasefires are holding,
we don't want a return to that.
I certainly wish all acts of violence, terror, robbery, beatings were history.
What annoys me is that knowing the position SF are in as regards IRA's criminality:
The DUP continually moves the goal-posts of stiing down in gov't in such a way as to make it impossible for SF to get the IRA to accept their terms.
Out of that the DUP maintains the illusion of the moral high ground, whilst looking good and all its doing is just keeping up appearances.
Letting down its own people and blaming SF.
Any blogger backers on this!

gimme a mo WF

LOL

Most Ronseal products aren't "clear" - stains and dyes are there to cover up, conceal, change, misrepresent and mislead ;)

Wrong Davros they are there to protect and You only have to apply every 4 years (come on May 5th) ;)

WF
err my post to you is called "going into one"
I fought the law and the law won.
I'm new to this
sorry its been 1000 yrs
wish i'd stayed with the worms

Well, the hound of Ulster needs it's walk, so out into the cold and wet I'll go. Makes me sound like those UUP and SDLP candidates on may 5th and 6th LOL

sdlp/ cold and wet LOL

Cg, I am not CGMoron.

Be careful cg
I was once accused by shaypaul of being
"Intel Insider"

Cg, if it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that the IRA are behind the Northern Bank robbery will you resign from Sinn Fein?

It all fits Brian

People who are known to have more than one identity on this site should expect people to catch on eventually.

If TT is genuinely not cgmoron then I apologise but I'm not convinced

"Cg, if it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that the IRA are behind the Northern Bank robbery will you resign from Sinn Fein?"

I don't believe that will ever happen but If it was proven I wouldn't resign.

Interesting CG.

Comments removed and referred to site management. A.U.

ahh maybe a quick change from TT who can really tell ( superman went into a phone-box)
I find it a little trite that you call cg an immature fool, but look at your handle cgmoron
did you fully realise what you were getting into when choosing that?

"It has always struck me as strange that someone like you claims to want a united ireland"

Why?

"In simplistic terms for you - both Catholic and Protestants are in agreement"

If you can't use big words don't try and insinuate that I can’t understand them ;)

"So now gr8 Oracle how would you propose to do that? considering your profile shows a sniper at work sign?"

I never proclaimed my self as an oracle and what has my profile picture got to do with anything?

"You really are an immature fool"

This from a person who has more than one identity, sad

Cg
Just answer the questions posed. Finally I am not tt.
Slainte

"Just answer the questions posed"

That sounded like an order

If you post questions and not tripe I will graciously answer

Until that day, I'm going on the razzle

Slan

Don't drink to much! Alcohol kills brain cells and by reading your posts you can ill afford to lose anymore.

You are pushing your luck A.U.

Cgmoron, was it not you who got a yellow card recently?

maca,
is that a rhetorical question?

Cgmoron, Go easy on the abuse. We would hate to lose you.

Davros, a dissappointing post from you there:

"According to the IRA they are already at peace with the rest of us. Remember the dictum - Ireland unfree shall never be at peace ... is that what they mean when they call for peace?"

That 'dictum' was said by Padraig Pearse at the grave of O'Donovan Rossa....before 1916!

Brits out is the only peace they will recognise as in their minds there can be NO peace until they get their way ?

Is that a statement or a question?

The SF leadership and the IRA have played word games from the beginning.

Really? Funny but I thought the other parties were expert at playing scrabble, myself!

I don't doubt that the vast majority of SF voters want what I would define as Peace - an absence of politically motivated violence regardless of the acceptability of the political situation. However I wonder if that definition would be acceptable to the IRA or SF leadership ? I doubt it.

Why do you doubt it. Mitchell McLaughlin was very clear on this - he said that the robbery of the Northern Bank was a crime. He also said that the killing of Jean McConville would be a crim if it happened in todays context, i.e. in the middle of a peace process.

The way people on this board talk, you would think that the IRA were still at war. Maybe you're all just too young to remember what it was like?

For God's sake, lose the glass half empty attitude and wake up to some serious discussion!?

CGmoron
"is that a rhetorical question?"

A reminder.

That 'dictum' was said by Padraig Pearse at the grave of O'Donovan Rossa....before 1916!

and ? What has that got to do with anything ? Or have I missed the RM cutting it's ties to O'Donovan Rossa and Pearse ?

tt,
Medical fact - alcohol kills brain cells. Not abuse. I also feel that stiffling my opinion would be playing into the hands of sf/ira bloggers. Who as you know do not like to answer awkward questions.

So Liam, is it ok then if the "minor" activity continues? As long as its just the odd punishment beating or whatever? By the way what happened that fella in Armagh, you know the guy that just disappeared - where did he go?
Sinn Fein are ok. Its ok if the IRA do wee things from time to time, is it Liam?

The usual rubbish from cgmoron/TT

If you wish to attack me at least do it openly. If you support the stoops at least admit it.

I will answer any question you wish but I won't listen to sdlp bullshit.

Weather you like me or loath me you can't deny I am honest about my affilliations and for those people who attack me, stop using dual identies as everyone can see through that and know it's a joke.

I can't wait till May 5th, when the sdlp is destruyted hopefully these stoop attacks will stop. If they don't It doesn't bother me as the majority of nationalists are behind me on this

The sdlp are finished.

"sdlp is destruyted"

sorry, should read "sdlp is destroyed"

I apologise as I am drunk ;)

"sf/ira bloggers"

Cgmoron/TT

If that is supposed to be an insult then you have failed to grasp the republican mentality.

The only problem that occurs is that you give people honors to which they are undeserving.

Brian Boru

Your response to me apparently makes no sense.

Willowfield
I will try to be more coherent ... sorry
I was trying to make the point about the question of criminality when there is armed struggle.

In War an act of murder is not criminal.
In Peace times an act of murder is criminal.

This is the dilema I am seeking to explore.
I am confused about it.
What are your views?

cgmoron consider yourself in receipt of a red card. You are welcome to appeal it to me privately, although as I'm currently away from Slugger Central I will not reply until Friday at the earliest.

Brian Boru

In War an act of murder is not criminal. In Peace times an act of murder is criminal.

In war, an act of murder is criminal. Murder is always criminal. Perhaps what you mean is that, in war, different laws apply and killing someone is combat is, generally speaking, not murder.

This is the dilema I am seeking to explore. I am confused about it. What are your views?

What is the dilemma? The scenario you cite is completely irrelevant to this thread.