Ulster Rugby team?right,why dont they just change the name to Northern Ireland,its a cold house for Cavan,Monaghan and Donegal,and dont bother talking about Tommie Bowe,hes more of an armagh man,than a monaghan one.Also Cavan/Monaghan/Donegal are not represented on the flag ulster uses,so do us all a favour and change your name to N.Ireland.you dont fool us

Tsk Tsk Cavanman. The only people that would be upset about a 6 county Rugby team calling itself the Ulster rugby team are dinosaurs with 1920's mentality. We have more important things to worry about.

Davros
why not use the yellow flag which represents the 9 counties?

Iconography is an emotive issue. I thought it was the name to which you objected ?

"Iconography."

I seed me one of them onst. Took a shot at it.

It's one of the more interesting parts of my course James :) Interpreting messages from Murals and banners etc.

"It's one of the more interesting parts of my course James :)"

Maybe so but I had bile the critter I shot neigh onto an hour before I could chew it.

Tastes like chicken.

Heck, in your neck of the woods they eat squirrels and Bambi!

Moose burgers too.

Jest 'bout everthang 'cept them Sasquatchs and them pesky Artesians.

We're keepin' our eyes peeled.

i stated i disagree with the usage of the name ulster,when all the counties of ulster are not represented with the flag,its the same as ulster unionists rejecting the irish national anthem/and flag..which in my opinion they have every right to do.

'CavanMan' wouldn't be related to 'ulsterman' by any chance? ;)

It's an old argument Cavanman.

Incidentally - Sponsors - Bank of Ireland .
Strip - Red Hand of Ulster.
So what's the problem ?

Peteb
why do you draw comparisons of myself to Ulsterman?when have i posted sectarian comments?

Davros
i aggree its an old argument,but ulster is seemingly struggling at the moment,and could do with the extra support/players etc from the other 3 counties.I have played rugby with many oustanding players from Monaghan and Cavan,and all of them have opted to play in Leinster which is not good for the game up north.

It's the same lack of a sense of humour, 'CavanMan'.. that's all.

I'm still not sure about the flag business cavanman . Do you mean they fly the Modern Ulster Flag of the red hand with the Crown abovit it ? If they do, I'll agree it should be changed.

yes my apologies peteb i do have a sense of humour :)just didnt like the comparison to ''ulsterman''

Yes Davros its the ulster flag with the crown,which i disagree with.i believe the yellow ulster flag which includes the red hand,but leaves out the crown should be used?what you think?

I wouldn't have a problem with the original provincial flag, or with a plain red had on white background, as in their strip badge. It does seem a bit much to have the Stormont Flag.

yeh i do wish they would use such a flag,anyways have a good weekend blogging and goodnight :)

Good Night and God Bless.

United Ireland planned - on the sports field

This should cheer you up CavanMan !

CavanMan

If you go to the IRFU or Ulster rugby websites you will notice the absense of flags. Rugby should not be dragged into an area it is doing its best to stay out of. Yes Ulster rugby is dominated by Unionists but that's just sporting tradition not sectarianism.

We should be glad that they are participating in the Irish team and stop looking for things to crib about. I always cheer for Ulster against the other provinces and I hope you do the same in Cavan.

Henry 94
yes i do cheer for ulster,i was just pointing out that many players and supporters i know here see ulster not so much as a sectarian team,but a team who do not want their support,Perhaps when the GAA's Rule 42 is scrapped,Ulster could play in Clones or Breffini Park.(Casement park might be stretching it a bit,LOL)

Henry 94
yes i do cheer for ulster,i was just pointing out that many players and supporters i know here see ulster not so much as a sectarian team,but a team who do not want their support,Perhaps when the GAA's Rule 42 is scrapped,Ulster could play in Clones or Breffini Park.(Casement park might be stretching it a bit,LOL)

CavanMan - AFAIK Ravenhill Rd is owned by the IRFA.

Whoops - that's the Rugby Ground at Ravenhill, not the entire Road :)

yeh i know davros,but these other two grounds hold 35 to 40,000,does ravenhill hold this much?i didnt mean that ulster would play every game there,just a few to open the option up for the future.

How about the GAA offering Croker to the national team while Lansdowne is being renovated. It would also open up the possibilty of Casement being used for a few invitational games.

Glad to see that the Ulster board rejected any idea of Solomons being re-engaged and decided to stick with Mark Mc Call.

CavanMan

Perhaps when the GAA's Rule 42 is scrapped,Ulster could play in Clones or Breffini Park.

That's an outstanding idea.

According to the IRFU Ravenhill holds 20,000.

The Ulster rugby team doesn't represent Ulster anymore. Anyone can play for Ulster. It is effectively just a club, like Leicester or Cardiff. So Cavanman's objections are irrelevant.

A Northern Ireland international rugby team is a good idea, though.

a Northern Irish rugby team?willow tell me what players would actually form the basis of such a team?

Players from Northern Ireland.

i was asking for names of players you believe would play for a Northern Irish team. :)

Not really into rugby, so I don't know many players, but I imagine David Humphries would be one. Neil McMillan. Most of the Ulster players are from NI.

yes,but how plausible would such a team be?,the NI football team struggles,and even less people play rugby in Northern Ireland,The reasonulster is not so greatly represented on the irish team at the moment is because Leinster and Munster are in a period of supremacy,that will however not last forever,and Ulster shall reign again,the creation of a N.Ireland team in my opinion would lead to both teams becoming the whipping boys of World Rugby.

the creation of a N.Ireland team in my opinion would lead to both teams becoming the whipping boys of World Rugby.

It would barely affect the ROI team, since there is virtually nil representation of NI.

I'm sure NI would not be "whipped" by Canada, Namibia, Japan, etc.

willowfield

A Northern Ireland international rugby team is a good idea, though.

Not really into rugby

Says it all.

The 'Island of Ireland' rugby team uses the Republic of Ireland flag and the Republic of Ireland anthem while playing in Dublin. Why is that given that it is supposed to represent Northern Ireland as well as the Republic?

It’s no excuse to say that it’s because the President always turns up. The Northern Ireland and/or British flag should fly in Dublin along with the Irish Tricolour. It’s very insulting to the Ulster-British people of Northern Ireland only to have the Irish Tricolour on display.

What is it with Pan-Nationalists? They want to take take take, but never give anything. Are they not happy with Ulstermen playing for an All-Ireland team, in exchange for Ulster being represented by the Northern Ireland flag?

Personally, given that Dublin doesn't respect British Northern Ireland, I think there should be a Northern Ireland rugby team separate from the rest of the island.

However, we should still call it Ulster and also accept players from the three occupied Ulster counties in the Republic. As the Republic doesn’t respect Northern Ireland when it comes to sport, why should we show any respect for the Republic.

Peace ad Justice

However, we should still call it Ulster and also accept players from the three occupied Ulster counties in the Republic.

Do you want the three counties included in Northern Ireland. There is a majority in Ulster for a united Ireland.

3 occupied counties?so you are implying that Cavan,Monaghan and Donegal are british counties,occupied by the irish?

It depends how you define Ulster. Most Unionists define Ulster=Northern Ireland. But I was talking in rugby speak above. And anyway, the territory of Ulster has changed over time.

I'm pleased at your silence on the other points. Now that the Republic's constitution has been amended, we need them to start treating us as equals when it comes to culture and sport. The day of cultural discrimination by Pan-Nationalists must come to an end if we are to build proper relationships between the peoples of these islands.

I used to half-believe in pan-nationalism many years ago, then I realised that SF and The SDLP loathe each other with much the same intensity as the DUP and UUP ;)

"I used to half-believe in pan-nationalism many years ago, then I realised that SF and The SDLP loathe each other with much the same intensity as the DUP and UUP ;)"

Davros
It's much more then DUP/UUP hatred.

Peace and Justice
If you read any of my earlier comments i said that i disagreed with the usage of the tricolour for the Irish rugby Team.A northern Ireland rugby team?are you kidding?first of all David Humphries,Tyrone Howe,Tommy Bowe and the other N Ireland players on the ulster team,may pledge their alleigance to the(southern) irish team
If you have ever attended any games,David Humphries is a cult hero in landsdowne Road(he is better than O'Gara).So Before you start salivating about a Norn Iron team,just think of the present state of you countries soccer team,and imagine a situation many times worse.and you have your N Ireland Rugby team :)

Davros
It's much more then DUP/UUP hatred.

So, I'm damned for all eternity but not for coming from the unionist community , but because I have voted SDLP ? Why didn't anybody WARN me ???

"So, I'm damned for all eternity but not for coming from the unionist community , but because I have voted SDLP ? Why didn't anybody WARN me ???"

Correct, you can still save your soul though;)

I have no problem with unionists but stoops are a different matter.

Cavanman,
I don’t think that is a valid enough argument. Even the ‘Island of Ireland’ rugby team has went through some bad patches over the years! We need to start somewhere. It would be better to have a Northern Ireland rugby team which we could give 100% support to, than have an ‘Island of Ireland’ team which insults our country by its use of flags and symbols.

insults your country?i do believe 45 % of your countries population believe the tricolour and our national anthem to be their own..and the rest dont dare tell me that the extreme loyalists which make up a significant amount of the unionist community would ever support an all irish team even if they flew the Union Jack
It is a known fact that a sizeable amount of loyalists support the English rugby team.

It is a known fact that a sizeable amount of loyalists support the English rugby team.

I would find that hard to believe Cavanman.

i do believe 45 % of your countries population believe the tricolour and our national anthem to be their own..

It is a known fact that a sizeable amount of loyalists support the English rugby team.

Any evidence for either of these claims?

What about your own country Cavanman? If ethnic cleansing had not been carried out against the Protestant population, there would still be a sizeable minority in the Republic with different affiliations. As it happens, they are now down to a few percent and must do what they are told. So much for Pan-Nationalists calling for equal ‘rights’ in British Ulster.

When was the last time you saw a British flag flying anywhere in the Republic? Visit the rest of the UK and you will see plenty of Irish Tricolours. That’s called tolerance – something that hardline Irish Nationalists need to learn. As for Northern Ireland, while 43% may be Roman Catholic, it doesn’t mean they would automatically support the Republic.

However, getting back to the main argument, the fact is that Northern Ireland is part of the UK and it’s time the Republic had respect for Northern Ireland being British (remember you changed your constitution). So would you support the flying of the British and Irish flags at Dublin rugby matches along with the playing of both anthems? The flying of the Irish Tricolour and the playing of the military Soldier’s Song (“We're children of a fighting race ... ”) along with “Ireland’s Call” is not acceptable.

We need respect for British Ulster before we can be good neighbours.

Peace and Justice
"When was the last time you saw a British flag flying anywhere in the Republic"

When the OO holds parades in the 26 counties,
British embassy, etc.

Grow up and stop turning The Irish Rugby team in to a sectarian issue.

He has a fair point about the absence of an NI flag at Lansdowne Road.

Peace and Justice i said i was in a favour of flying the 4 provincial flags,the union jack is not the flag of northern ireland.Northern Ireland is not part of Britain.It is part of the UK.Yes and i have advocated long ago for a new anthem to be sung for Ireland games.And finally my claim that 43% of N.I population supports reunification may be in error,But tell me can you prove it to me that a significant number of Protestants(especially those among the border areas,who economically would be better off in a united Ireland)would vote for one if the situation arose?.

sorry that should read ''wouldnt'' in the second last line.:)

Cavanman

... the union jack is not the flag of northern ireland.

No, the Union Flag is ...

Northern Ireland is not part of Britain.It is part of the UK.

"British flag flying anywhere in the Republic?"

A couple of places in Waterford last year. Some place in either Clare or Galway this year. I'd probably see it at the embassy in Dublin but I don't fancy the fair city.

What really blew me away, though was the Japanese meatball in front the Aran Fisherman a couple of years ago.

willowfield
do tell me the difference between the Union Jack and the Union Flag.

Dear, dear. Every schoolboys should know that one ...

jack or flag?

Northern Ireland is not part of Britain.It is part of the UK.

Great Britain does not have a flag. The flag of the United Kingdom is the Union Flag (by virtue of the two acts of Union)

"Northern Ireland is not part of Britain.It is part of the UK."

Michael
By that same logic people in the 6 counties can't be British. ;)

willowfield
why is it suprising that an irishman doesnt know the difference between the Union jack and the Union Flag..i have never studied the origins of the Flags of any of the countries on the british and irish isles with the exception of the Republic of Irelands.

Michael Shilliday
the Union Flag may be the flag of the United Kingdom,however the Stormont Flag is the National Flag of Northern Ireland.

cg

By that same logic people in the 6 counties can't be British.

What logic?

cavanman

why is it suprising that an irishman doesnt know the difference between the Union jack and the Union Flag..

It isn't particularly. But it's surprising that someone who is sufficiently interested about such matters to be posting on this board doesn't know.

"What logic?"

willowfield
It's logical because the six counties are not part of Britian, ergo; the people in the six counties are not British. ; )

Amazing that some would have the north set up their own rugby team for purely political purposes which would mean that the north would be deprived of representation in the premier European Rubgy competition since a six county team is unlikely to be strong enough for the six nations.

To “PS”,
If you read the earlier posts, I was looking for equality and respect for British Ulster. As the Republic doesn’t appear to want to offer that, then Northern Ireland should have its own rugby team.

To “cg”
You say that the British flag flies in the Republic at certain parades and at the embassy. Those are the exceptions that prove the rule. In mainland UK, the Irish Tricolour is flown from bars, hotels etc by ordinary British people. Perhaps if the Republic showed some generosity towards British culture, it would help to move things on.

Can you imagine the reaction from Pan-Nationalists if British people didn’t allow the Irish Tricolour to be displayed in the UK? The letter pages of the papers from Birmingham to Boston would be filled with stories from “victims” denied their “rights” to express their culture.

cg

It's logical because the six counties are not part of Britian, ergo; the people in the six counties are not British.

That doesn't follow, because British doesn't describe only people from "Britian": it describes anyone with UK nationality.

Ulster players should make a stand, stop playing for the Irish team and form their own Northern Irish team, that would solve everything.... but they haven't because it's not about politics it's about sport. No one forces anyone to watch it and no one forces anyone to play it (school PE teachers being the exception). Most oppressed sports people ever?

On a completely unrelated topic, fair play to Mark Allen, especially for beating England in the semi-final:) Looks like a professional in the making.

It was Southern players making a stand and refusing to play at Ravenhill with the Union Flag flying that resulted in a shameful caving-in by the IRFU in the 1950s (I think) when they decided to play all internationals in Dublin.

Willowfield

Sorry, I'm not getting your point. Do you mean that it was shameful of the IRFU to respect the wishes of players at the time or do you mean that it would be shameful of the IRFU to cave in to Ulster players making a stand (should they choose to)? How did they "cave in"?

What has it go to do with the current situation?

It was shameful of the players to refuse to respect the UK flag and anthem, and shameful of the IRFU to cave into them. It is shameful that the IRFU continues to use ROI symbols only at Lansdowne Road.

If Ulster players made a stand, it would be right and it would be right for the IRFU to agree to their reasonable demands.

Well said Willowfield.

As my final post on this issue, I would like to say the following:
Why would anyone want to support a team which flies a foreign flag, plays a foreign national anthem and many times has 100% foreign players? Northern Ireland players have up to now, put sport before politics. However that doesn’t mean the issues should be ignored. They need to be addressed and a grown-up Republic of Ireland needs to start respecting British Ulster.

Willowfield

It was shameful of the players to refuse to respect the UK flag and anthem, and shameful of the IRFU to cave into them.

Why is it shameful for the IRFU to respect the wishes of the players it represents, surely this is a good thing?

It is shameful that the IRFU continues to use ROI symbols only at Lansdowne Road.

Is it? Ulster players don't seem to have a problem with it. No one forces David Humphries to sing the Irish National Anthem, so he doesn't.

If Ulster players made a stand, it would be right and it would be right for the IRFU to agree to their reasonable demands.

Agreed, but they haven't. Fortunately, they continue to play successfully for the Irish team. There have been a few unremarkable attempts over the years to turn this into a divisive issue and some Ulster players have come under pressure for playing (my evidence for this is purely anecdotal so I'll withdraw comment if necessary)but those attempts have been unsuccessful and the team has flourished.

Peace and Justice

However that doesn’t mean the issues should be ignored. They need to be addressed and a grown-up Republic of Ireland needs to start respecting British Ulster.

You were the one that suggested forming an NI team, in which case the issues you have with the current situation would become a non-issues. You can't have it both ways:)

mucky

Why is it shameful for the IRFU to respect the wishes of the players it represents, surely this is a good thing?

It's only shameful if the players' wishes are unreasonable and disrespectful.

If the players wished to, say, play all matches at 5am on Monday morning would it be a good thing to respect those wishes? If they wished to go on an all-day drinking session the day before a match would it be a good thing to respect those wishes? Or do you accept that it is not always a good thing to respect players' wishes?

Is it?

Yes.

Ulster players don't seem to have a problem with it. No one forces David Humphries to sing the Irish National Anthem, so he doesn't.

Whether or not Ulster players seem to have a problem is not relevant. What is relevant is the disrespect shown to NI.

Agreed, but they haven't. Fortunately, they continue to play successfully for the Irish team. There have been a few unremarkable attempts over the years to turn this into a divisive issue and some Ulster players have come under pressure for playing (my evidence for this is purely anecdotal so I'll withdraw comment if necessary)but those attempts have been unsuccessful and the team has flourished.

That is irrelevant.

mucky -

"Why is it shameful for the IRFU to respect the wishes of the players it represents, surely this is a good thing?"

Here's why I also would see both the actions of the IRFU and the southern Irish players back in 1953 as shameful.

The Ireland team played under the Tricolour and played AnF as the anthem when it played in the RoI, and played under the Union Flag and played GSTQ when it played in NI. For a team representing both NI and the RoI, this was not an unreasonable compromise.

Yet the southern players in 1953 refused to go along with the arrangements in Belfast. Didf they even give one second's thought to how their northern counterparts felt when playing in Dublin?? Seemingly not. Hypocritical in the extreme. And they were content to have their team-mates from NI play under the Tricolour at every match from then on.

As for the IRFU, they caved in to the demands of the southern Irish players with no consideration for the equivalent situation for the Northern Irish players. They decided they would or could not force the southern players to play in NI under the national symbols used in that state, but they would do exactly that to the northern players playing every single match in the RoI from then on.

Like it's hardly difficult to see the hypocrisy.

Further to this, it should be noted that the IRFU up until the 1930s used a 'neutral' flag and anthem. Then political pressure in the Free State to have its flag and anthem used at Ireland rugby matches reulted in the 'compromise solution' of Tricolour/AnF in the South, Union Flag/GSTQ in NI. This makes the 1954 situation look even more shameful.

Fast forward to the present day and the IRFU maintain the 'flag and anthem of the state we play in' facade even though they haven't played a match in NI for half a century. The simply sultion would be to simply fly the RoI and NI flags together at all Ireland matches.

Does anyone seriously believe that when the new stadium is finally built in NI, and Ireland come to play there, the IRFU will let them play under the Union Flag and let GSTQ be played? I would say it's a racing certaianty that after all these years, the IRFU would suddenly come round to a 'two flags and a neutral anthem only' solution. Call me an old cynic...

I seem to remember that "Ireland's Call" is played before all Irish internationals and AnF only when the match is at Lansdowne.

Fair gesture most would think.

Willowfield

If the players wished to, say, play all matches at 5am on Monday morning would it be a good thing to respect those wishes? If they wished to go on an all-day drinking session the day before a match would it be a good thing to respect those wishes?

Those demands aren't shameful or unreasonable, there just stupid so they're both poor examples. Wanting to play for your country under your own national flag isn't unreasonable, that's why I'd support it if that's what Ulster players or even supporters wanted, hence my agreement with your statement "If Ulster players made a stand, it would be right and it would be right for the IRFU to agree to their reasonable demands."

That is irrelevant.

I think that what players want is very relevant, there the ones who put the graft in. They obviously don't share your view that disrespect is being shown to NI, otherwise they wouldn't be grafting so hard to get into the team. But if they do, they should refuse to play, that's what I'd do. Why do you think it's irrelevant what players think, are their opinions not as important as yours? You've already stated that you don't have much interest in the game so perhaps you're just trying to politicise the game in Ireland in an attempt to divide people on it.If so, shame on you.

Mike

Thanks for the details, I was aware of the incident WF referred to but didn't know the details.

Further to this, it should be noted that the IRFU up until the 1930s used a 'neutral' flag and anthem. Then political pressure in the Free State to have its flag and anthem used at Ireland rugby matches reulted in the 'compromise solution' of Tricolour/AnF in the South, Union Flag/GSTQ in NI. This makes the 1954 situation look even more shameful.

So as the status of Ireland changed so did protocol when the team played. When Ireland became a Republic in 1949, it changed again. Not shameful, just logical. NI players have never been forced to play and NI players in the Irish team aren't representing Britain no matter what nationality they are, so you wouldn't play GSTQ or fly the Union flag. Maybe there's an argument there for flying the NI flag and choosing an NI anthem (gotta be better than "Ireland's call":)), in which case why not have an NI team?

harboy

I seem to remember that "Ireland's Call" is played before all Irish internationals and AnF only when the match is at Lansdowne. Fair gesture most would think.

Would be if it weren't for the fact that ALL home matches are played in the Republic!

What flag is used at away matches?

mucky

It's not reasonable to use ROI symbols only for an all-Ireland team. That is self-evident. The team is not simply a vehicle for players: it represents the whole island.

Mike
when the GAA's rule 42 is removed Ireland will be playing their home rugby games in croke park.why do you believe they will play any of their games in Northern Ireland?Dublin is a central location on this island.

willow do you agree with me that the provincial flags,of connact,leinster,Munster and the 9 COUNTIES!! of ulster would be adequate to use instead of the tricolour,then Northern Ireland would be represented.

sorry this link should show the flag which i mean.
http://flagspot.net/flags/ie-prov.html

CavanMan: the Connacht Flag would have to be decommissioned ;)

mucky

“So as the status of Ireland changed so did protocol when the team played. When Ireland became a Republic in 1949, it changed again. Not shameful, just logical.”

Hang on a minute. The status of ‘Ireland’ changed? The status of the 26 county changed, that is different from the 32 county Ireland represented by the rugby team. Why should the Republic of Ireland Act result in all matches going to the South so that only its flag and anthem would be used?

“NI players have never been forced to play”

I don’t see how that’s relevant. The Ireland rugby team represents the whole island including NI. The touring team formerly known as the British Lions was renamed the British and Irish Lions, even though no-one was forcing the Irish players to play.

“and NI players in the Irish team aren't representing Britain no matter what nationality they are, so you wouldn't play GSTQ or fly the Union flag.”

They are however there as natives of one of the two states that make up the island of Ireland. Back in the 19030s when this was worked out, as that state was part of the UK, the national symbols of the UK were used. That’s supposedly the IRFU’s current arrangement – Union Flag and GSTQ at matches in NI. Actually I think they should fly the NI flag (rather than the Union Flag) alongside the Tricolour, at all venues therefore representing the whole island. As for anthems – I would say Ireland’s Call is sufficient for all occasions (though evidently you’re not a fan!). But consider this – the IRFU says it plays AnF at matches in Dublin because the matches take place in the RoI and it’s the national anthem there. Matches in Belfast would be taking place in the UK.

“Maybe there's an argument there for flying the NI flag and choosing an NI anthem (gotta be better than "Ireland's call":)), in which case why not have an NI team?”

I don’t follow your logic there. I think if there’s an all-Ireland team, which there is, both states (ie the whole island) rather than just one should be represented in terms of flags and anthems. One could just as easily say if IRFU and southern fans want to use the RoI flag and anthem, why not have a RoI team?

Davros
lol nice one,to think of it we dont really need the connacht flag..its not like they contribute to Irish Rugby in any way other than drain it of funds.Hell can anyone on Slugger name another player(without checking online) other than Eric Elwood who plays with connacht?..i am a die hard rugby follower and i cant.LOL

Cavan Man –

A new stadium for NI is going to be built in the forthcoming years – the IRFU Ulster Branch will host Ulster matches there. Up till the 1950s, Ireland matches were regularly played at Ravenhill. Nowadays it isn’t suitable for big international matches, however the new stadium will be. In addition to this the IRFU has played some of the minor matches outside Dublin in recent years (Limerick the venue I remember) – I would expect at least the odd match to go to the Ulster Branch’s new (state of the art) HQ.

By the way I think the flag you suggest would be an excellent idea. It represents the whole island and also reflects the fact that rugby in Ireland is organised on a ‘four provinces’ basis.

Mike
my comments were not against stageing matches in N.Ireland.I support the idea.Any Ideas were this new stadium will be?or when it will be open?

It's a good flag, although...wouldn't it look better if it was an Orange background on the Ulster ...;)

Davros
im sure they will let you colour in the background if you do so wish :)

CavanMan

willow do you agree with me that the provincial flags,of connact,leinster,Munster and the 9 COUNTIES!! of ulster would be adequate to use instead of the tricolour,then Northern Ireland would be represented.

Sure.

yes so we have agreed on a flag,now an anthem?any ideas..anyone

The 12th Of Never

Playing catch up here...

Mike

Fair points, well made. I've got no problem with an NI flag and anthem or a joint anthem (I just think Ireland's call is a bit twee) and would hate to see the team split. I think Cavanman's provincial flag idea is a good one. I suppose my main point was that if the current situation is such a big problem, NI players and supporters haven't been that vocal about it, and it would be wrong to divide rugby supporters on a non-issue, but points taken all the same.

As for a joint anthem, while James' idea is a fine one, I was thinking more along the lines of AC/DC's Thunderstruck. Imagine that in a big new stadium. You know it makes sense.

Davros and Willowfield,
Cavanman is right about a sizeable number of loyalists supporting England rather than NI. 20% of the entire population of NI supports the English team.

Here is the evidence:
Three lions: the loyalists' new badge of pride
By Henry McDonald

Three lions on the shirt and the cross of st George have become the new badges of identity for Northern Ireland loyalists.
The icons of the England soccer side are swiftly replacing the Red Hand of Ulster as the symbol of Britishness among Protestants in the province.
A new survey will reveal that almost one in five football fans in Ulster support England rather than the Northern Irealnd team. The report by the Department of Culture Arts and Leisure will show that just over 18% of supporters prefer to follow the fortunes of David Beckham, Wayne Rooney and Michael Owen t Lawrie Sanchez's side.
High street sports stores as well as loyalist souvenir shops have reported a surge in demand for the England home and away kit during Euro 2004.
Academic experts on public attitudes in the province say the increase in support for England proves that an increasing number of Ulster Protestants, particularly the young, don't see themselves as Northern Irish anymore.
One well known loyalist was preparing this week to fly out to Portugal and buy a ticket for the quarter-finals of the European Championship - if of course England get the right result against Croatia tomorrow.
Billy Hutchinson, the former UVF prisoner turned PUP politician, has supported England all his life rather than Northern Ireland. He even followed Sven Goran Eriksson's men to Japan in the last World Cup and always wears his England jersey to the games.
"The England jersey is a badge of British identity and I know a lot of younger loyalists who support the English side. My 21-year-old son just bought the red England away jersey and several of his friends have also got England kits for the finals. They feel at home supporting England especially when the fans are chanting "No surrender to the IRA" or put "No Surrender" in God Save The Queen. I know a lot of people from Northern Ireland who have already gone to Portugal to support England."
Hutchinson denied that supporting England meant being disloyal to the Northern Ireland side.
"In the Premiership many people from Northern Ireland support English teams week in week out. So why is it disloyal to support these same players when they are in their national side, which is after all like us, British", he added.
On Hutchinson's native Shankill Road in Belfast, loyalist souvenir shops reported a roaring trade in England jerseys, flags, caps and badges since before Euro 2004 began. Behind the counter at the Shankill Historical Society shop a woman was knitting underneath a row of Ulster and Union Jack flags whil surrounded by the paraphernalia of loyalist paramilitary groups. There are no England kits left. "The minute the England jerseys come in, they're snapped up right away. We can't get enough of them in," she said.
The Union Jack souvenir shop on the the Upper Newtownards Road was also selling specially made polo shirts complete with the famous three lions badge on the breast and beneath it the "No surrender" battle cry of Ulster Loyalism.
"See that T-shirt there," the shop assistant said, pointing to the specially commissioned England/Ulster polo shirt "that was made in Germany!" Further down the shop, just behind a giant England flag, hung the familiar red, white and black colours of Nazi Germany with the swastika in the middle.
Even reputable established sports shops in central Belfast such as S.S. Moore's have noticed a big increase in the sale of England shirts. The store said it sold an average of 30 England strips a week in the run up to the tournament.
Wearing the England shirt as a badge of Ulster Protestants' loyalty to Britain was first made fashionable by the jailed UDA terrorist leader Johnny "Mad Dog" Adair. During the last European Championship in 2000, Adair was photographed near his home in the Lower Shankill estate in the white English home strip. The jersey had been given to him as a present from a delegation of Combat 18 members who had arrived in Northern Ireland for hte Orange marching season.
Those studying social attitudes in Northern Ireland regard the adoption of the English soccer cause by Ulster Protestants as a highly significant cultural shift. Dr. Peter Shirlow, whose pioneering work on the areas most affected by the Troubles showed that sectarian divisions have actually increased since the IRA and loyalist ceasefires, said England's popularity demonstrated that many Ulster Protestants are eschewing their Northern Irish identity.
"Most young people no longer get their first soccer experience going to watch Northern Ireland or Irish League football. They watch it on television first and their heroes are the Beckhams and the Owens. Besides, the working class Ulster Protestant needs a success story to cling on to in the face of the Republic of Ireland doing well and being supported by nationalists in Northern Ireland. The national side are poor, so the loyalists shift their allegiance to the other British side that's successful. There is also, I suspect, a generational gap at play here. Many kids don't remember when the Northern Ireland side were good at taking on the world. They have no memory of our exploits in the 1982 World Cup. Some of the kids wearing England tops weren't even born then," the University of Ulster lecturer said.
Northern Ireland's lowly ranking in world football - it is 110th in the FIFA world rankings - is clearly one of the main factors why so many Ulster loyalists are switching their support to Sven Goran Eriksson's team. Some stalwarts, however, refuse to back any other team but the national side.
Jim Rainey, the chairman of the amalgamated Northern Ireland Supporters club, posed a challenge to Ulster's homegrown English fans.
"It's up to an individual what team you suuport, whether that be the Republic of Ireland or England. But I will only follow the country I was born in and that's always Northern Ireland. And the test of loyalty of these England fans will surely come when we face the English in the first World Cup qualifier next Easter. I wonder will they be cheering against their native Northern Ireland then?"

Try using paragraphs.

And I never made any comment about people supporting England so I don't know why you directed that post at me.

George, Interesting article by Henry, but we were specifically talking of Rugby.

Cavanman: It is a known fact that a sizeable amount of loyalists support the English rugby team.

Davros :I would find that hard to believe Cavanman.

Willowfield,
there are paragraphs. Do you mean inserting a line space?

Davros,
I wouldn't think there is much support for the English rugby team alright.

Just to make two points on the Irish team and procedure for rugby games both home and away.

1) The all-ireland rugby team does not play under the Irish Flag or the union falg. It plays under the IRFU Flag. The Irish flag is only flown at Lansdowne Rd out of respect for the country the game is being played in. The same is true of games played at Ravenhill (u-21 or A internationals). In neither ground is the flag of another nation flown apart from the IRFU flag, the host nation's flag and the away team's flag. For any game outside the UK and Ireland the only flag flown is the IRFU flag.

2) Again the national anthem is played out of respect for the nation in which the game is being played. Ireland - Irish national anthem. The UK (Ulster) - GSTQ. For any game outside these countries it is only the IRFU anthem which is played.

So lets not make this into a sectarian issue when it claerly is not.

Cheers George.

Steve

The same is true of games played at Ravenhill (u-21 or A internationals).

Is the Union Flag flown at these matches??

Again the national anthem is played out of respect for the nation in which the game is being played. Ireland - Irish national anthem. The UK (Ulster) - GSTQ.

GSTQ is not played at Ireland B internationals at Ravenhill.

yes willowfield agree- the union flag is displayed at ravenhill for b internatinals and other levels when ireland is playing and and similiarly the tricolour in dublin-
alos the irfu did respond to the thorny issue of natinal anthems and has adopted a neatral one for the past 10 years- "Irelands call" i think- heard it afew times- not bad- the "soldiers song" i think is only played as a presedential courtesy in dublin now-
Please also note that when ulster played the final in 1999 dublin was festooned with red hand of ulsters- while southern supporters would not wishoffend by bringing any tricolours to games in belfast! say for example when ulster is playing munster

The IRFU flag is the Cross of St. Patrick, which is flown abroad.

The tricolour is flown in Dublin because it is the national flag of the territory.

I would assume at Ravenhill it would be the union flag and the IRFU flag.

Everyone seems to accept that GSTQ is not played at Ireland B internationals at Ravenhill, thus giving the lie to the claim that the policy is even-handed.

Regarding Ireland's Call, this was a very welcome development and should have happened years before.

Willowfield,
why don't you pop down and play it yourself at the next game. Nothing like direct action.

People we cannot let this issue divide us.the English are THE ENEMY in rugby terms,we must unite and quash the big headed ones. :)

Willowfield,

GSTQ was played at Ireland's A international with SA in Dec 1998. Which is how it should be. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I attended that game and was pleasently surprised when it was played.

Willowfield,

GSTQ was played at Ireland's A international with SA in Dec 1998. Which is how it should be. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I attended that game and was pleasently surprised when it was played.

Willowfield,
I take it in light of this new information you will accept that the Irish rugby team is even-handed.

In all honesty GSTQ and the soldiers song have no place in irish rugby.A neutral Song must be found..the only time a version of the soldiers song should be used is to welcome the President when she meets the teams.

Steve

What about other matches? That is one match. (And how could it have been an A match, when no full internationals have been played at Ravenhill since the 50s?)

If what you say is true and applies to all matches, then that is good and even-handed. (I am also surprised.) But Ireland's Call is only a recent innovation and NI has had to suffer decades of insulting IRFU policy.

If NI ever gets a national stadium, it will be interesting to see whether the Southerners will appreciate GSTQ bellowing out live on TV across the British Isles.

Willowfield,
I see you aren't the type to withdraw comments.

I don't think any "national" stadium for NI will be large enough to host a full rugby international so it won't happen.

How come they can host them at Limerick, then?

You've got me there Willowfield,
When was the last full international in Limerick? I have never heard of one being held there.

Think they've played the odd international - against Romania and the likes - at Limerick.

Limerick eh
perhaps they believe the staging of a rugby game will quell the crime level in stab city ;)

Willowfield,
having gone to a rugby school and having received tickets to all internationals as a result, I still say I have never heard of a full international in Limerick, not even against Romania (I remember when they gave us tough games in Lansdowne alright).

Do you or do you not have facts about games being played in Limerick or are at best are you just guessing and at worst making things up?

willowfield
you will find that Thomond Park had a greater capacity than Ravenhill
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/1767753.stm this link mentions Ravenhill has a capacity of only 12,000(even games against Romania or USA would get more).Thomond Park holds approximetely 22,500.according to.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/11/24/spage_3.htm

CavanMan

Of what relevance is that?

Well Willowfield?
When was the last full rugby international played in Limerick or did you just make your last post up?

a reason why N Ireland could not hold any rugby internationals,they have no stadia fit to stage games.The only Stadium which has the capabilities in N Ireland to hold a rugby international is Casement Park.And that cant happen yet.

I don't know. I've been told by others that the odd minor international has been held there. Might be wrong, though.

Fair enough. Thanks.

FYI on Thomond Park, Limerick Willowfield.

It hosted the United States and Australia group game in the 1999 World Cup.

It was due to host its first ever Ireland game in 2001 against Canada but the match was cancelled due to Heineken Cup committments. I don't think one has been held since although it is to get a new upgrade.

That backs up my point, then. If Thomond Park was to be used for an international (albeit it was cancelled), then there's no reason why a national stadium in NI shouldn't also be used.

I had a feeling you'd notice how that piece of info would back up your point.

Perhaps a match of Canada's prestige could be held in this stadium but no way a six nations game, for which even 50,000 at Lansdowne is too small.

Either way, I'm afraid there will never be a "national" stadium for Northern Ireland.

All that has been agreed is that if there is one, it should be at the Maze. There isn't the critical mass of events to warrant one bigger than 25,000 and if the GAA isn't on board, which it won't be (no need), and the IRFU decides it can also play small ties at the home of rugby - Limerick - then it's basically just for the IFA.

And the IFA don't have the cash or the support to afford such a stadium.

Limerick eh
perhaps they believe the staging of a rugby game will quell the crime level in stab city ;)

May the Matre de park your car in Moyross.

I have a friend, an Irish language and culture enthusiast, from Limerick who turned down the GAA in favor of Rugby. The reason?: The GAA skinflints only served sodas while the evil purveyors of that foreign game served stew.

George -

A few points on the NI stadium - firstly it is a government project so won't be funded by the IFA, IRFU or any other association. Secondly, the main issue with regards rugby is not whether Ireland internationals will be played there, but Ulster playing there. And thirdly, the inside track is that the IFA, IRFU Ulster Branch, and GAA are all on board for the project.

On the article you posted about levels of support in NI for the England football team - 18% is way too high. Yes there are a few idiotic loyalists who 'support' England in a knckle headed attmpt to be "ultra-British" (and quite frankly England are welcome to them), and also a few middle-class bandwagon jumpers whose idea of supporting a team is watching them on TV and operate under the delusion that because they grew up watching Man Utd or Liverpool on tV, that they're from England.

Dr Shirlow's comments were inaccurate, disappointing for any academic, particularly one who professes an interest in football. Apart from the aforementioned handful (and it's worth bearing in mind many of those referred to in the article may have supported England in Euro 2004 not as permanent England fans, but because NI didn't qualify and England were the only UK representatives), there has been no 'transferring of allegiances'. In the last couple of years support for NI has undergone a remarkable renaissance - no longer do we see the poor crowds of the early and mid 90s.

Mike,
there has been virtually nothing agreed on this "national" stadium, least of all whether the GAA is on board for playing games there. Did this inside track of yours talk about Ulster paying rent to play at the Maze instead of at Ravenhill, which they own?

True it is a British government project, but it will only be funded if it is economically viable.

My inside track tells me the GAA won't play games there, the IRFU will only offer very few if any and Ulster Rugby won't bring money to the party.

This leaves just the IFA, who will use it at most 5 times a year. Hardly economically viable in my view.

As for supporting Northern Ireland, I agree that they are getting more support now but that has a lot to do with trying to remove the Billy Boy loyalists, who are now supporting England.

The GAA wont have much need for using a new Northern Ireland stadium,nearly every game is played in either Casement Park or Clones..and i cant see this changing in the near future.(Plus i want games in the NEWLY developed Kingspan Breffini Park)If you havent been already..visit as soon as possible.

Willowfield,

There have been numberous A internationals held in Ravenhill down through the years. Traditionally A internationals are divided out between Thomond, Ravenhill and Donnybrook.

Check out the IRFU's website where they have a record of the numberous A internationals held at Ravenhill (among other places) since 1978.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/history/arch_history/css/arch_history.htm

Steve

What on earth are "A internationals"?

Willowfield,

A Internationals are used to give international experience to players on the fringes of the full international side. Up until a couple of years ago A internationals had their own six nations that was played on a Friday night before the full international on the Saturday. I believe they are bringing them back this year.

Peace and Justice,
throwing phrases like ethnic cleansing around without producing any evidence is pretty lame.

Maybe you could tell me how many Protestants were forced out of their homes in the County of Cavan between 1918 and say 1925.

I can tell you 25% of Belfast Catholics, 23,000 people, were forced out of theirs in 1921.

I await your reply with interest but I invariably challenge unionists on this issue all I get is census results, which says how many left not how many were forced out, and bluster.

How many house burnings in Cavan, how many forced out of their homes?

Steve

A Internationals are used to give international experience to players on the fringes of the full international side.

What you mean, then, is that they are actually B internationals!

Playing catch up as well here..

Steve et al - interested to hear that about the A match against SA in '98. I attended two Ireland A matches in Ravenhill when I was still living in Belfast, Canada and NZ (can't remember when exactly but within the last 5 years) and on neither occasion was GSTQ played, and the Union flag was not flown.

I don't believe the IRFU's position is sinister, some kind of slur on NI; but it is inconsistent, and could do with being sorted out - e.g. by flying the IRFU flag and the 4 provinces flag alone, or the tricolour and the union flag side by side, and playing Ireland's Call alone, with the Presidential Salute where the president is present. Apart from anything, the formalities before each home match are ludicrously protracted, sometimes with three anthems and a presidential salute being played!

I do seem to remember a full Ireland match being played at Thomond Park in the last few years - against Fiji perhaps? I'll check.. It's unlikely that any Ireland internationals, except b-list friendlies, would be played in the new National Stadium, as its capacity will only be about 30k.

CavanMan, you mustn't be much of a die hard rugby supporter if you can't name any other Connacht players! They aren't a "drain on resources" on the contrary they do astonishingly well given their restricted resources - Bernard Jackman (hooker) is currently on the international squad (although he's yet to win a cap) and John O'Sullivan (young no.8) would probably have had a call-up against the USA had he not been injured. A Connacht man, Johnny O'Connor made his debut at no.7 against SA, although he moved to Wasps a couple of seasons back - and they have provided Ulster with Ronan McCormack and Rowan Frost in the last couple of years.

Ireland played Italy in a World Cup warm-up match at Thomond Park in August 2003 - they won 61-6.

Gentlemen,

I can see that many here haven't got a clue about rugby football ....

Let me shed some light on a few of your queries ;

- There is no such thing as a 'B' international. There are 'full' internationals (test side = best players of the country) and sometimes 'A' internationals (sort of reserve side, good players, but not quite ready for test rugby, returning from injury etc).

- matches in Thomond Park - (friendly) Ireland v Romania (7 Sep 2002) / Ireland v Italy (30 Aug 2003)
Real rugby fans accept that Limerick is the home of irish rugby ... even Dubs !

- Connacht have some outstanding players at the moment apart from Elwood. Think of Johnny O'Connor (now at Wasps), Darren Yapp, Matt Mostyn, Peter Bracken, Bernard Jackman and Matt Lacey to name but a few.

- when the national side play away from home only "Ireland's Call" is played and a neutral flag used to represent the team. At the World Cup last year it was a white flag with the IRFU logo (fancy shamrock thing), in Paris it is often the 4 provincial flags or a flag with the 4 provinces on it. I have also seen the tricolour and white NI flag as well as tricolour and yellow Ulster flag (I know that doesn't make sense).
Last year's VI Nations match in Paris, the only flag on show was the European flag (Irl had the presidency at that moment) and the 'Ode to Joy' was played after 'Ireland's Call' and 'La Marseillaise'.

- St Patrick's cross flag was NEVER used by Ireland or Ulster.

- when the national side play in the republic you get the tricolour + 4 provincial flags + visiting team af course. AnF + Ireland's call always (dublin or limerick). Presidential salute only if she's there ... (obviously !).

- when the national side plays in Belfast ... irrelevant as it hasn't happened in yonks and that's not about to change soon.

- anyone who would suggest that there should be 2 separate teams (NI & ROI) proves that they know absolutely feck all about the game. Especially if it's someone from the north ... the only NI players anywhere near the national side today are David Humphreys (too old now), Tyrone Howe (even older) and Tommy Bowe (one for the future ... but would play for RoI instead if a choice needed to be made ... see how he proudly bellowed out AnF before his first cap v USA). We won't mention Kevin Maggs as he's irish via his granny or something so could in theory qualify for either of the national teams (hypothetically). Humphreys' younger brother (forget his name now) is doing well for the 7-a-side team. It's fair to say that the current team would survive just fine without the NI guys, whereas NI couldn't field a team capable of beating any of the other provinces ... let alone another nation. This year Ulster have lost to all the other provinces ... despite having a rake of 'foreigners' added to the 'natives'. I doubt a 'NI team' would beat Canada or USA. Also it's clear that NI would be incapable of sustaining a professional outfit and the players would have to play abroad.

Bottom line is the idea of a NI team separate from the rest is plain barking mad !

- the flag of the Ulster branch (of the IRFU) is the provincial one (yellow with red cross). The crest is the red hand on a red cross on a white background ... on white shirt. The NI flag is NOT the flag of Ulster rugby, although many supporters in Ravenhill bring along their NI flag (without or without crown, David's star etc).

Hope that cleared up a few things ....

C'mon Ireland !!! World Cup winners 2007

Gentlemen,

I can see that many here haven't got a clue about rugby football ....

Let me shed some light on a few of your queries ;

- There is no such thing as a 'B' international. There are 'full' internationals (test side = best players of the country) and sometimes 'A' internationals (sort of reserve side, good players, but not quite ready for test rugby, returning from injury etc).

- matches in Thomond Park - (friendly) Ireland v Romania (7 Sep 2002) / Ireland v Italy (30 Aug 2003)
Real rugby fans accept that Limerick is the home of irish rugby ... even Dubs !

- Connacht have some outstanding players at the moment apart from Elwood. Think of Johnny O'Connor (now at Wasps), Darren Yapp, Matt Mostyn, Peter Bracken, Bernard Jackman and Matt Lacey to name but a few.

- when the national side play away from home only "Ireland's Call" is played and a neutral flag used to represent the team. At the World Cup last year it was a white flag with the IRFU logo (fancy shamrock thing), in Paris it is often the 4 provincial flags or a flag with the 4 provinces on it. I have also seen the tricolour and white NI flag as well as tricolour and yellow Ulster flag (I know that doesn't make sense).
Last year's VI Nations match in Paris, the only flag on show was the European flag (Irl had the presidency at that moment) and the 'Ode to Joy' was played after 'Ireland's Call' and 'La Marseillaise'.

- St Patrick's cross flag was NEVER used by Ireland or Ulster.

- when the national side play in the republic you get the tricolour + 4 provincial flags + visiting team af course. AnF + Ireland's call always (dublin or limerick). Presidential salute only if she's there ... (obviously !).

- when the national side plays in Belfast ... irrelevant as it hasn't happened in yonks and that's not about to change soon.

- anyone who would suggest that there should be 2 separate teams (NI & ROI) proves that they know absolutely feck all about the game. Especially if it's someone from the north ... the only NI players anywhere near the national side today are David Humphreys (too old now), Tyrone Howe (even older) and Tommy Bowe (one for the future ... but would play for RoI instead if a choice needed to be made ... see how he proudly bellowed out AnF before his first cap v USA). We won't mention Kevin Maggs as he's irish via his granny or something so could in theory qualify for either of the national teams (hypothetically). Humphreys' younger brother (forget his name now) is doing well for the 7-a-side team. It's fair to say that the current team would survive just fine without the NI guys, whereas NI couldn't field a team capable of beating any of the other provinces ... let alone another nation. This year Ulster have lost to all the other provinces ... despite having a rake of 'foreigners' added to the 'natives'. I doubt a 'NI team' would beat Canada or USA. Also it's clear that NI would be incapable of sustaining a professional outfit and the players would have to play abroad.

Bottom line is the idea of a NI team separate from the rest is plain barking mad !

- the flag of the Ulster branch (of the IRFU) is the provincial one (yellow with red cross). The crest is the red hand on a red cross on a white background ... on white shirt. The NI flag is NOT the flag of Ulster rugby, although many supporters in Ravenhill bring along their NI flag (without or without crown, David's star etc).

Hope that cleared up a few things ....

C'mon Ireland !!! World Cup winners 2007

RuggerBugger - most of your post is broadly factually accurate, but you waffle a bit about Ulster - we are going through an appalling run of form, and have found the transition to a new coaching set-up difficult; and the first-choice Ireland team would not have a single Ulsterman on it. But as well as the three players you mention on the fringes of the Ireland set-up, Eddie O'Sullivan listed Roger Wilson, Neil McMillan and Neil Best as "Unavailable due to injury" for the USA game - the implication being that had they been fit, they would have been selected, and deservedly so, as in my opinion certainly the first two are potential Ireland players (if they can avoid injury in the next couple of years!)

I think the idea of a NI rugby team is preposterous - however you shouldn't extrapolate from the current situation and say that NI could never produce a decent team - Ulster was the powerhouse province for a long time, and everything in sport ebbs and flows; and with Ulster's continuing excellence at schools and youth level, we will be back! (e.g. in the schools trial match this weekend in Blackrock, there are 6 Ulster players in the "Probables", 6 in the "Possibles" and 6 in the "Reserves" so Ulster provide 40% of the panel..)

As for "foreigners" and "natives" (brushing over the terminology before someone starts talking about planters and gaels..) there are only three members of the Ulster squad who are not Irish-qualified: Paul Steinmetz (NZ), Rod Moore (Aus) and Campbell Feather (NZ).

RuggerBugger - most of your post is broadly factually accurate, but you waffle a bit about Ulster - we are going through an appalling run of form, and have found the transition to a new coaching set-up difficult; and the first-choice Ireland team would not have a single Ulsterman on it. But as well as the three players you mention on the fringes of the Ireland set-up, Eddie O'Sullivan listed Roger Wilson, Neil McMillan and Neil Best as "Unavailable due to injury" for the USA game - the implication being that had they been fit, they would have been selected, and deservedly so, as in my opinion certainly the first two are potential Ireland players (if they can avoid injury in the next couple of years!)

I think the idea of a NI rugby team is preposterous - however you shouldn't extrapolate from the current situation and say that NI could never produce a decent team - Ulster was the powerhouse province for a long time, and everything in sport ebbs and flows; and with Ulster's continuing excellence at schools and youth level, we will be back! (e.g. in the schools trial match this weekend in Blackrock, there are 6 Ulster players in the "Probables", 6 in the "Possibles" and 6 in the "Reserves" so Ulster provide 40% of the panel..)

As for "foreigners" and "natives" (brushing over the terminology before someone starts talking about planters and gaels..) there are only three members of the Ulster squad who are not Irish-qualified: Paul Steinmetz (NZ), Rod Moore (Aus) and Campbell Feather (NZ).

Lafcadio,

indeed let's not get involved in the 'natives' v 'foreigners' debate ... you understood exactly what I was saying (thank God ! ... forgot about the different sensitivities for a moment).

Re Ulster rugby, I agree fully with what you say in so far as Ulster has given Ireland numerous outstanding player sover the years and decades (the great Willie John for example) and I am sure that the Northern Star will rise again ... but at the moment it's poor. Possibly out of the H Cup next year which is something I would have thought impossible only a few years ago.

The amount of 'foreigners' has thankfully diminished as it was becoming ridiculous at one stage (must have been the 'Stade Français' effect :o)).

However, no matter how good Ulster will become in the future, it will never be good enough to produce a full national squad. It(s a simple case of maths ... to few players to have a real elite. Ireland is finding it hard enough to find strength in depth, so NI by itself hasn't got a hope (nor would Leinster, Connacht or munster for that matter).

Anyway, we agree that the idea of a NI rugby team is an idea that does not come from a rugby fan ...

ps : Munster for Heineken glory this year !!!!!

I cannot wait to see this Roger Wilson in action,I have heard rave reviews about the guy,and we could use a successor to Foley,and use Eric Miller as blindside flanker.Miller,O'Connor,and Wilson,what a selection of back row forwards when you also add in the likes of Wallace,Easterbury,Quinlan.Nobody in world rugby has that talent available
the Future of Irish Rugby is looking brighter by the moment :)

"can tell you 25% of Belfast Catholics, 23,000 people, were forced out of theirs in 1921"

We have had 17,000 Protestants forced out of (London)Derry,10,000 banished from the Shankill to north down, the continued attcaks on protestants in N Belfast and now Glengormley estimates of 7000 decline amongst protestants in N Belfast

and incidentally I am descendant of people intimaded out of Cork (bullets in the post threats and cousin shot dead) -no one ever questioned let alone convicted. Other ancestor shopkeeper in Ballina intimidated, boycotted out.

There has been an ongoing campaign against the protestant/unionist in Ireland for generations. (The changes in the ROI have been as a result of EC membership nothing to do with changes of heart.)

Banshee
This is a rugby tread..not one on ethnic cleansing.

barnshee*** my apologies on the mispelling of your name

Wilson's a fantastic player, unfortunately our richness in the back row comes at a time when Irish rugby is awash with quality back row men... Foley is having a fantastic season - my MOTM against SA - and the fact that it's taken O'Connor so long to get a cap says a lot, given that England were sniffing around him.. And Quinlan and Wallace weren't getting a game at Munster behind Williams, Foley and Leamy.. We also have credible international prospects in O'Sullivan at Connacht, Jennings and McCullen at Leinster, as well as Miller and Easterby, with Gleeson to return!

If only we had a few quality props or half-backs coming through at any of the provinces..

RB - Given that we're probably unlikely to progress in the HC, I'd like to see another Irish province win it, but I reckon Leinster will be the one, if any will - not getting carried away by the circus against Bourgoin, but just think they are starting to look tight and professional at the right time.. Munster still have a great team, but I think they don't have enough behind the scrum to win it, I read they're even thinking about playing David Wallace at 12!

George -
"there has been virtually nothing agreed on this "national" stadium, least of all whether the GAA is on board for playing games there. Did this inside track of yours talk about Ulster paying rent to play at the Maze instead of at Ravenhill, which they own?

True it is a British government project, but it will only be funded if it is economically viable.

My inside track tells me the GAA won't play games there, the IRFU will only offer very few if any and Ulster Rugby won't bring money to the party.

This leaves just the IFA, who will use it at most 5 times a year. Hardly economically viable in my view."

The incentive for the Ulster Branch is that if they sell Ravenhill, which is a prime location for housing developement, and play at a new NI stadium, it will release a large amount of capital for them.

As far as I'm told the GAA will be signing up, though as my source is a journalist...

On the 'viability' issue - what I'm told is that the Maze site provides the opportunity for a large compex of shops, hotels, bars, restaurants, conference centres etc as well as the stadium (that said I'd still prefer a stadium to be sited at the Titanic Quarter). Although rumour has it that this bit may have been due to be announced as part of the £1 billio