There is no reason that Alfred Kinsey and the Catholic church cannot both be criticised for their evasion of the reality of child abuse.

There is no reason to suppose that the Christian Right has not also attacked the Roman Catholic church over this very issue many times in the past.

But how kind of Mr McCann to defend Liam Neeson, who I hope will not forget to thank him in person on his next visit home.

In typical fashion McCann seeks to scapegoat the Catholic Church for the ills of society. His obsessive anti-Catholicism is little different than that of the typical Paisleyite.

But then, much like the Paisleyites he is a fundamentalist, albeit of the Leninist rather than Christian variety. Same disease different manifestation.

How can someone so rigidly sectarian in his politics be taken seriously as an advocate of anti-sectarianism?

I thought Eamonn was critical of all forms of organised religion. That's not sectarian, that's equal opportunity atheism.

God help anybody who dares criticise the (RC)church ... it leads to a knee-jerk accusation of sectarianism.

Critics of the RC Church are sectarian .... Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Critics of the RC Church are sectarian .... Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Most Rice Crispies in the South are pretty critical of the RC church. Does that make them sectarian ?

I thought Eamonn was critical of all forms of organised religion. That's not sectarian, that's equal opportunity atheism.

Correct - generally Eamonn puts all the ills of society thru the ages at the hands of religion (conveniently forgetting of course that some of the worst purges took place at the hands of committed atheists).

Personally, I think the problems are to do with people.....

I would suggest that in respect of Ireland History supports Eamonn.

Most Rice Crispies in the South are pretty critical of the RC church. Does that make them sectarian ?

Who/what are Rice Crispies?

Whoever they are, you'd better ask Christopher Daigle if they are sectarian.

``generally Eamonn puts all the ills of society thru the ages at the hands of religion''

I would have said he puts the ills of various societies down to the inherent iniquities of human power structures. Of which organised religion has been and continues to be one very salient example, though by no means the only one.

As for Leninist, have you ever heard or read any of Eamonn's thoughts on Soviet Russia? Clearly not. A typically broad brush approach to the left, so characteristic of those who know nothing about it.

Incidentally, it is not good enough to compare Paisley with McCann on the grounds that they are the two great public speakers Northern Ireland has produced in the last half century or so.

Paisley's demagogic technique has been to appeal to the worst instincts and prejudices of his audience, substituting noise for substance and ultimately leading his flock nowhere.

McCann is the opposite: he has consistently attempted to appeal to the finest and noblest instincts in his audience, and still does to this day, despite his long tenancy as the voice in the wilderness. His arguments are as substantial as they are powerfully delivered. Sadly his audience has not deserved him. He has no flock to lead, which is a great tragedy.

That McCann should be the outsider and Paisley the strongman of NI politics is as stark an indictment of the NI electorate - both those who choose Paisley and those across the fence without whom a Paisley would not be possible - as you'll find.

"Rice Crispies" joc? The latest disparaging term?
Like calling Jehovah Witnesses "Bon Jovis"? ;)

Rice Crispies - as in RCs, right?

Trouble is, aren't Rice Krispies spelt with a K?

My girlfriend from Bandit Country (S Armagh) used to refer to Rice Crispies :) But you are right , they do have a K Billy.

Just watched a Brillian show on BBC based on super 8's - old home movies- Short Strand and Strabane in the 50's and 60's , an Irish band called the Carpet baggers, the old club and dance scene . Brilliant!

McCann is a good lad ! He got my votes at the last election.

This is an excellent article in Todays Sunday Times, by Lynne Kelleher, that helps answer Mick's original post

O'Casey was agony aunt too

"While Americans wrote to O’Casey in the 1950s to say they were depressed about the prospect of nuclear war, many Irish women complained to him about the oppressiveness of the Catholic church. Shivaun O’Casey found the correspondence while researching a television documentary on her father’s life.

The playwright, who fled Ireland for England in the 1920s, often got letters simply addressed to Sean O’Casey, Devon.

The most moving correspondence, which lasted more than three years, was with an unmarried mother who was distraught when her child was taken from her by nuns.

“He told her he knew other women who had been forced to give up their children,” said Shivaun. “He sympathised. They both said they hoped it would never happen again.”

O’Casey also corresponded with a woman who had been made to take a vow of chastity by a bishop in England. “I think it was because she was very pretty and very sexual,” said Shivuan, the playwright’s youngest child.

The woman signed herself Sheila, or just S, in her letters because she didn’t want to be identified. O’Casey based a character in The Bishop’s Bonfire on her plight. When it was first staged in 1955, the play led to rioting outside the Gaiety theatre in Dublin due to its “blasphemous” content.

O’Casey was very liberal in his outlook, believing abortion should be a woman’s decision, and healthcare and schooling should be free for everybody. There are many references in the correspondence to the dominance of the Catholic church in Ireland after the second world war, and the resulting ban on contraceptives that forced hundreds of girls to travel from Ireland to Britain for abortions."

"Shivaun" what a way to completely bastardise a name, I hope i'm actually wrong and it's an original name, not a screwed up Siobhán.

Thanks for the article Davros.

I'll send you the whole thing :)

Shivaun seems to be an acceptable variant of Siobhán which according to one Irish website is a 'bastardised' version of the French "Jehanne".
Hadn't heard of the US versions "Chavonne" and "ShaVaughn".

Davros

McCann is a good lad ! He got my votes at the last election.

Has the property franchise come back?

Nope :) I cast two perfectly proper and legal votes.

"Shivaun seems to be an acceptable variant of Siobhán which according to one Irish website is a 'bastardised' version of the French "Jehanne".
Hadn't heard of the US versions "Chavonne" and "ShaVaughn"."

It gives me the shivers ;)

God forgive us savages, but when I was at Dungannon we had a kid who was born in Canada whose Ulster Ma named him "Shaun" ... he was known as "seen the lepre'heen"

Oh, before I go to watch little Britain...

Knock Knock

"we had a kid who was born in Canada whose Ulster Ma named him "Shaun" ... he was known as "seen the lepre'heen""

Actually I don't get it. How do ye pronounce "Shaun"

Who's there?

T'was pronounced seen as in "where have you been" ?

Siobhán

Siobhán who?

(this better not be lame Davros)

Siobhán yer knickers, here comes yer ma!

Good one ;))

I'll e mail you a couple of other cultural ones, slightly ruder ... I don't think Mick would appreciate it if I posted them ;)

whoops , I did send you them already !

I'm sure Mick has a good sense of humour ;)

Question...is "blurt" slang for weeping ?

Liam O'Flaherty, 'Patsa' -

"She was noted by the peculiar capacity she had for blurting at will. Indeed, small boys used to call after her: 'Blurt for us , Nuala.' "

I wouldn't say it's the primary definition but I guess it could be used that way.

brainy dict. | freesearch

"I thought Eamonn was critical of all forms of organised religion. That's not sectarian, that's equal opportunity atheism."
Posted by: Belfast Gonzo at September 30, 2004 08:23 PM

He's critical of all forms of institutional religion except his own. Marxism/Leninism can be, and often is, a secular religion. For example:
1. It has a founding prophetic figure (Marx).
2. An extensive canon of scripture including Marx, Lenin, and depending on the sectarian allegiance Stalin, Trotsky, and so on. Including a wide body of "scriptural exegesis" including figures like Adorno, Gramsci, Marcuse etc.
3. Heretics, for example "the traitor" Kautsky,or Stalin and/or Trotsky depending on the sectarian allegiance (Maoist, Stalinist, Trotskyist etc.)
4. an apocolyptic end-times (M/L refer to this as the international worker's revolution which paralells the messianism found in many traditional religions)
5. An idealized vision of a future society called the "worker's republic", paralelling the Christian Kingdom of Heaven.
6. "holy martyrs" (Trotsky and the other Bolsheviks murdered by Stalin.
7. In the case of one Trotskyist sect in the Latin America there is/was even an example of the veneration of relics. In this case Trotsky's death mask.
8. Trotskyists can be strongly evangelical. For example selling newspapers regularly in an attempt to win new members (converts).
9. The party (the church) as a hierarchically controlled body of like minded cadre (the faith community)with a system of branches (the parish) all the way us to the central committee (the curia).
10. There is the same splits found in traditional religion between the purists (Leninist/Trotskyists) and syncretists (Social Democracy).

McCann can condemn religion all he likes, but whether he can see it or not, he is an intensely religious man himself.

As for Leninist, have you ever heard or read any of Eamonn's thoughts on Soviet Russia? Clearly not. A typically broad brush approach to the left, so characteristic of those who know nothing about it.
---------------------

I'm sorry but there is far more to the left than Eamonn McCann or is he also infallible?
I am very much aware of McCann's views on the Soviet Union and more pertinently how dependent he is on Tony Cliff for his analysis.
Be that as it may the question of the nature of the Soviet Union as deformed workers state, socialist, bureaucratic collectivist, or bureaucratic state capitalist is irrelevant to this discussion.

I personally think that there is a great deal of value in Lenin's and Trotsky's theoretical analysis.
My biggest criticism of most Leninists though, is certainly not that they are Leninists, but rather the very rigid and dogmatic approach that they bring to Lenin (and Trotsky).
The IST are a little better in that their founding figure had enough sense and ability for critical thinking to recognize that Trotsky's theoretical analysis of the Soviet Union was seriously lacking.
But the fact remains that even the most sensible tendency within Leninism (the IST)by their dogmatic rigidity probably alienate dozens if not hundreds of people from Leninism for every one person they attract to it.