CAS case to be concluded today- Update: Ruling in Favour of FAI
The protracted dispute over the elibigility of northerners to represent the Republic of Ireland should finally be resolved today, with the Lausanne-based Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) issuing its ruling later today. This comes after the Irish Football Association took a case against west Belfast youth, Daniel Kearns, objecting to the rules which deemed him eligible to represent the Republic.
This one’s been covered on Slugger for years and quite a few Sluggerites have become experts on the FIFA Statutes thanks to Site veterans like ‘George’ and others. I’ve made my own thoughts pretty clear in the Belfast Telegraph in recent times- here and here, as has Owen Polley and others.
Looks like we’ll finally be getting some closure on this one at last….
Update: CAS has ruled in favour of the player, FIFA and the FAI. Here’s the FAI statement and the IFA statement.
If you are born a Jew you have a right to Israeli citizenship should you wish.
If you are born in NI you have a right to RoI citizenship should you wish.
How you get there is a technicality. Both make a mockery of the international game.
It hardly makes the FAI’s attempts to establish itself as a team of nationalists any less worse than it is.
and neither do the other 3 associations. Your point being?
A couple of points.
1. What argument are you talking about? The official name of the 26 county state is Ireland as stated in the constitution – the 1948 act merely changed its description to ROI. Similarly, the FAI asserts the team is Ireland, but it is referred to by FIFA as ROI for purposes of distinction.
2. I’m not a Birmingham fan so its unlikely I’ll be able to ask where Maik Taylor’s grandparents were born, but according to the BelTel it would be irrelevant – http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/taylor-is-still-true-to-northern-ireland-cause-14068248.html
3. If you are going to refer me to FIFA’s specific guidelines, perhaps you’d provide me the link. And you still haven’t explained how Deco and Eduardo Da Silva meet your bloodline criteria?
I’m merely surmising the majority of your sectarian murder gibes and trying to work out exactly why you expect us to listen to anything you say.
So why should we?
Ok, let’s revert back to the one united Irish team of old?
Home games at Windsor, GSTQ anthem, it’s Ireland now though so Patrick’s Saltier instead.
Deal?
er, McGinn and McCourt play for Celtic in the SPL…
And most start in the Irish League teams at some level so your point just seems lost.
But hey, great that you can read their mind. Having your own opinion and attempting to pass it off as someone elses?
Funny how nationalists commenters are quick to tell everyone what their opinions should be.
That’s the problem with living in the fantasy world though. Stay there long enough you think you can make a wish and put others there too.
If they took the same view as myself they would have ruled against the FAI the same way they ruled against the Israel FA.
Hardly. The FIFA decision means the FAI have free reign on the entire playing pool of another association. Obviously this is predatory and should not be allowed, nevermind the obvious political games it’s creates.
My point was made against the ridiculous argument that Windsor is a ‘cold house’ for members of one side of the community, and the subsequent argument that there is some sort of moral imperative to allow said players play for another association, kind of like DCFC in the LoI.
This is obviously not the case, so should not form part of the argument. Said it before, will say it again – NI has both British and Irish symbols in it’s football team. In this way the team reflects that of the community it draws it’s players from.
People using the dark days of the troubles when there was a lot going on far worse than crowd control on the terraces are missing the point here – that this is about the association who’s jurisdiction is NI being treated as an equal partner at FIFA and not a surrogate child.
St. Etienne
NI is already privileged in that it is part of one country that has four associations – hardly a level playing ground!
Beautifully displays Mr McNarry’s wonderful forward thinking and enlightened approach.
Unbelievable.
Er, yes it is. These 4 associations are founder members of FIFA. without these 4 associations there would be no association football.
Besides, none of the 4 associations stand accused of meddling in eachother’s well defined jurisdictions are they?
I wonder would the current crop of NI players favour an all-island team?
That is, with neutral anthem and alternating games between Dublin and Belfast?
“all players born within Northern Ireland’s borders who do not have parents or grandparents born in the 26 counties are required to play for NI irrespective of the fact that they are automatically entitled to Irish citizenship and thus eligible to choose between playing for ROI or NI”
The above was the IFA’s contention I was referring to. Is this an accurate representation of it?
As I said, it may have been a possibility regarding death threats.
Not sure but you could join those who wonder about an all-isles team and share the same asylum together.
Er, yes it is. These 4 associations are founder members of FIFA. without these 4 associations there would be no association football.
St Etienne: I feel your pain. However, association football was codified at least a decade before the FA and its little 3 little brothers met. The rules owe nothing to that meeting and the (English with no name) FA is obviously the boss. Modern association football is not beholden to 19th century masons. The little brothers were there to make up the numbers. They should now merge; this would allow the historical bragging to continue.
I might sign up for the IFA however, If I do not join the RIR first.
http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regiments/3409.aspx I note how they have hijacked Irish symbols too. Still, one admires the undoubted bravery of “our boys”.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/tna/+/http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/HistoryAndHonour/RoyalIrishSoldiersHonouredForHelmandHeroics.htm
even if they have to poach from Fijians to make up the numbers.
The IFA seem to be doing plenty of meddling in England, like poaching large numbers of English players.
Are you David McNarry?
We have already had an all-ireland team play, we have an all-island soccer tournament, we have northern players playing for Ireland.
Move beyond your narrow viewpoint – there is a big world out there.
They both represented Northern Ireland before they joined Celtic, and I hope they have every success. You either don’t know much about the players though or you were deliberately avoiding Watcher’s point regarding them thinking they wouldn’t make it.
No, the British Assocations were not founder members of FIFA. The founding Associations of FIFA in Paris in 1904 (Fédération Internationale de Football Association) were the national associations of Belgium, Denmark, France, The Netherlands, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland. Also, that same day, the German Association declared its intention of affiliating through a telegram. The first President of FIFA was Robert Guerin.
Interesting, the British Associations withdrew from FIFA post the 1st World War for a while (would not play against their former enemies).
JEB and St Etienne
I am a Celtic fan so you two will probably not consider my view too important. As a result of a international agreement between two countries nationalists in Northern Ireland had their right to Irish citizenship confirmed although it was always possible and recognized in Ireland. This makes them eligible to play international football for that country in the same way Eduardo is Croation or Deco is Portuguese. Although John, I don’t imagine any of them will become president like our own dear Belfast ‘foreigner’ who was elected as head of state of a country she doesn’t belong to. A note to any of you that may be older I am a similar age to these two, My memories of Northern Irish football are not of O’Neill, Armstrong and Jennings but Lennon and Greysteel 7 Ireland 0. It may be easier to stick your head in the sand and ignore these points but the younger generation of footballers remember O’Neill as a manager and not a player or Armstrong as that Spanish pundit and not the goalscorer in ’82.
I know plenty of young nationalists that just have no feeling towards the North when it comes to football but they probably could be quietly persuaded over time but not by this sham of appeal after appeal. I am a Celtic man who would have rather see McGinn and McCourt play well and win for the north despite that cheat Kyle Lafferty’s appearance in the same team.
John, please tell what is wrong with a country only allowing you to be their head of state? Of course a state that we are in an economic union with and has no barriers to entry so what would be the need for any other agreement? Is it not enough that country clearly values us more than the state we now reside in?
For anybody that says this is going to make football more sectarian when it comes to here, they will have a hard job on their hands.
lol. On what planet did you start that comment from? I suppose the Celtic cup is the first step to an all-isle team then no doubt.
what we actually have is a Northern Irish team that doesn’t discriminate among it’s players – you can be British or Irish, both are allowed to be used for a player’s identity so long as they are Northern Irish by birth, descent or residency.
We also have an RoI team who select any Irishman so long as they have a single identity – in this case an Irish one not a British one.
It is the single biggest creation of division in the sport since the single-religion clubs common prior to and during the troubles.
sorry you lost me at the mention of masonry
“I am a Celtic fan so you two will probably not consider my view too important.”
lol @ the attempted self-martyrdom.
“ A note to any of you that may be older I am a similar age to these two, My memories of Northern Irish football are not of O’Neill, Armstrong and Jennings but Lennon and Greysteel 7 Ireland 0”
I’m sure you are aware of the simultaneous IRA chanting emanating from a similar minority of RoI fans that same night then? Obviously both ugly aberrations but as I said before there was a lot worse in the Troubles – like that of the murders themselves….
Lennon was in every respect the last hurrah for the boo boys. Turned up for that game in the Kop with a Lurgan Rangers flag and never came back. Good riddance.
I assume you can move on too. After all, your own players very much have.
St E: The FA’s founding meetings were4 in the Freemasons’ hall
Peter: Commiserations for being a Celtic fan.
You are confused. IFA players select those that are eligible via a British passport and residency rules as this passport does encompass multiple associations. There was a fuss about using Irish Passports a while back, but they are being used as a proxy for British ones. This should please you! Northen Ireland is British. FAI picks from anyone with an Irish Passport. It’s a citixzenship rule.
You are actually freaking out about the wrong thing. This is what will happen. At some point, the Republic will qualify for a major championship. Euros 2016 and on are the most likely, but they’ve a shot at the next Euros and the next WC. NI’s are a bit slimmer, and they won’t qualify. The next Johnny Evans will appear, the FAI will approach and he’ll pick the team that lets him play in major tournaments. If this occurs with any regularity, NI is a B team. Allt he FAI only goes for nationalists is a smoke screen. they would pick Satanists if they held Irish Passports. They’ll sound people out first and they have done so in the past and been knocked back, AFAIK – Chris Baird maybe?
Sure, there’ll be players who’d chose NI over playing for God. It’s the same for any country. But history indicates most footballers are moreconcerned with 1. money 2. fame 3. playing in top tournaments.
A split across sectarian line is really not the worst option for you.
Thank you, I will need some again on Wednesday night no doubt.
“I am a Celtic fan so you two will probably not consider my view too important.”
apart from a fairly obvious attempt at self-martyrdom I’m unaware why you’d think that?
You bring up the sectarian chanting at the 1-1 draw in ’93. Presumably you’d also condemn the IRA chants that emanated from the away fans. As contemptible as both were, they happened against a backdrop of murder and bombing – something which was there in ’82 but largely no longer repubicans accepted, so I don’t think that comparison is valid.
Regarding Lennon, that episode was very much the last hurrah for the boo boys. A group that huddled together a minority in the Kop around a Rangers Lurgan flag and haven’t been seen since – proven by the appearance once again of Celtic men carrying on their great tradition of NI representation at senior level. Good riddance to the neanderthals.
Sad that Lennon left under the circumstances he did, but to be frank it’s not as if I haven’t heard Lurgan Bhoys say a bad word about him, because I have. He seems to have a knack of attracting controversy. But I digress.
I hope when it gets built that you come to watch your heroes – McGinn especially so – play for NI when the capacity eventually gets increased.
fair enough – still the point stands – FIFA descends from these home associations.
No – the IFA can pick anyone with dual nationality from NI. It does not discriminate on which passport a player decides they have.
maybe players of any religion or none would wish to play for RoI in the hope of being on a team that might stand a chance of winning something
Fair one – though the point still stands, FIFA is a creation of the home associations, not the other way round.
“I am a Celtic fan so you two will probably not consider my view too important.”
Why apart from attempted self-martyrdom would you say that?
I note you refer to days when the bullets and bombs were still going off. And a match that contained equally sectarian chanting from RoI fans sitting in the Away section of the ground. I don’t believe either is the way ahead obviously, but the context in ’93 had more in common with ’82 than it does with today.
I note you also reference Lennon. While the guys who huddled together in a section of the Kop with their Lurgan Rangers flag boo’ed him, undoubtedly this was their last hurrah. They haven’t been seen since and good riddance.
As proven by the reception of your stars of today. I hope they both get a fair crack at the whip in Parkhead this season.
btw Slugger – is there a limit to the number of comments you can make on any one article?
Peter
“John, please tell what is wrong with a country only allowing you to be their head of state?”
The State you think you belong to and the one as a six county nationalists that you would like to be Head of doesnt exist – ie there is no 32 County Irish State
What instead you are opting to be a citisen of is the ROI or 26 counties.
As a six county Irish Man myself I find that a snub and an insult to be honest.
You are no less Irish playing for NI and no more Irish playing for ROI.
In terms of FIFA they should have acknowledged the ambiguous “pointing in both directions” waffle of the GFA and as they have two Associations on the island stuck by their own eligibility criteria.
My beef with the FAI is their incredible bad faith.
Firstly they were the body that divided Irish soccer on the island in the first place and then they were the body who first complained to FIFA about the eligibility criteria. The result of the latter was a 50 year gentleman’s agreement not to piss in each other’s pond. Something they have now turned their back on.
In addition you cannot jump the gun on an All Ireland team without following due process involving FIFA the two legitimate Irish Associations and the respective fans.
For the FAI and certain Northern Irish nationalist players and fans to give the two fingers to that process is also considerable bad faith.
To genuine Norn Iron fans like myself we are pissed off and if you considered yourself in the opposite position I think you would agree this is not an unreasonable position to hold ?
So Mary McAleese is not part of that state? I, like her, was born in the North but have lived in both North and South. I know who I belong to John, I don’t need you telling me. The state is also called Ireland not ROI. That is a football team that represents the state.
And yes I would be very pissed of if I was not given the choice to my nationality, thankfully I have been whether others like it or not. Like most people I prefer choice than to have an identity forced upon me. It is central to this argument.
As I say the the real issues are young nationalists views of NI, I pointed out the memories from my childhood, these court actions go nowhere near addressing them. Turning Windsor in to a mini Ibrox won’t help either. Maybe the IFA should look at a long term solution to this problem which I know they started on. These latest cases have not helped though. I was shaped by what I saw growing up, future generations wont have the Greysteel 7 Ireland 0. They may even remember McGinn or McCourt and want to watch them play. Its a long term game though, serious football fans don’t tend to be too fickle with who they support so you will not see a switch over night.
Once again it will be a choice for the player and quite a young man at that, so give them a break.
Peter
Mary McAleese was born in the same state as me.
The ROI jurisdiction doesnt extend beyond the border. They can make I suppose whoever they like a citisen – but it is a citisen of their jurisdiction – the 26 counties.
Therefore when you opt to paly for the ROI that is exactly who you are playing for
As I said before the sum total of your citisen rights are a passport, become President and now play for their football team.
As I aid I really dont know what motivates a Six County nationailist to want to play for a team that represents the 26 counties and turn their backs on their fellow 6 county Irishmen
As for “Greysteele and “Mini Ibrox” you are only highlighting your own ignorance about the current NI football support
Thanks St Etienne.
“Said it before, will say it again – NI has both British and Irish symbols in it’s football team. In this way the team reflects that of the community it draws it’s players from.”
I simply don’t know enough to disagree with you regarding the culture of the IFA, its supporters’ behaviour, etc, but if you’re right, then you have nothing to worry about. The predatory advances of the FAI will be rejected, as the IFA have already captured the hearts and minds of both of the North’s communities. From some of your other posts, I’d be a little less confident of that actually being the case, but, like I said, I’m not sufficiently familiar with the IFA to pass comment.
What I can say is if a similar ruling were made against the FAI (ie that all southern born players could opt to play for NI), I wouldn’t be in the slightest bit concerned. And for much the same reasons as you are indicating to me.
So bottom line: if indeed the IFA has many Nationalists, as you’ve cited above playing for it, if indeed it has ‘both British and Irish symbols’, has a sufficiently broad culture, fans’ behaviour is neither bigoted or offensive to other identities, then forget about the CAS judgement: the IFA has something better, the unflinching loyalty of both the Nationalist/Republican and Unionist/Loyalist communities.
John East Belfast:
“As I said I really dont know what motivates a Six County nationailist to want to play for a team that represents the 26 counties and turn their backs on their fellow 6 county Irishmen.”
Really? Haven’t you taken the opportunity of this board to educate yourself even remotely on Republican/Nationalist thinking? I’ve certainly tried my level best.
They are not ‘Six County’ nationalists, as you say, nor even ’26 county nationalist’, they are ‘Irish Nationalists’. Now, whether you like the term, dispute the term, take historical offence at it, is really neither here nor there. It’s their sense of their own identity and it’s their right to describe as they choose, not as you choose.
As I’ve said before too, this judgment enshrines the CHOICE to represent either one’s British or Irish identity on the field of play. It fulfils very fully the underlying respect for both identities which lies at the heart of the GFA arrangements. They IFA instead sought to COMPEL adoption of an identity. If the IFA cannot gain Nationalist or Republican loyalty through their goodwill and efforts alone, then do not try to COMPEL it. It smacks of an authoritarianism which the Stormont regime was quite skilled at, but has no place in modern ‘NI’ or, as you remain determined to say, ‘ROI’.
By the way, in case you are unaware, your own British Govt adopts the style Ireland too, not Republic of Ireland and accepts the style of the Irish Govt as Govt of Ireland, not Govt of Republic of Ireland. Your persistent inaccuracy on this matter is no doubt an historical hangover. As we’ve seen elsewhere, modern British Govt have proven themselves remarkably adroit at ensuring stable Anglo-Irish relations.
St Etienne
“Because they’ve been superseded by Paddy McCourt and the soon to be legendary Niall McGinn. Both Celtic, both playing with pride at Windsor”
Good for them – I’m a Celtic fan and I have no problem with that. As I said before, if a player opts for NI over RoI, that’s their choice and good luck to them. At that point my international interest in them ends and we move on. I’ll still cheer on Paddy McCourt and Niall for Celtic and I wish them good luck with NI (as long as they are not playing us).
That’s the difference! I RESPECT the choices players make even if they go against what I would like. It’s the whingers on here who hold grudges against players who opt not to play for NI that have a problem.
As regards who is the better team, I didn’t even bother to look at your clip. I just go by world rankings and recent results.
When NI were on a great run under Sanchez and Ireland weren’t going well, there was a period when NI were higher in the rankings for a year or so. There was no end of gloating on “Our Wee Country” – and fair enough. However, now Ireland are higher and have been for quite some time so that’s good enough for me.
If there was match between them tomorrow , we would be odds on to win with every bookie.
If you choose to believe otherwise that’s fine, but the facts and statistics say differently.
No, an Irish passport only qualifies you for the ROI team. If British citizenship was renounced, a player could not play for NI.
FIFA’s rules are based on citizenship. For NI, this is British.
“They’ll sound people out first and they have done so in the past and been knocked back, AFAIK – Chris Baird maybe?”
So the FAI make the first move and not the player as is frequently alleged? Do they check where the player went to school and his religion first before putting out the feelers? No Hun have been approached since Baird.
“What I can say is if a similar ruling were made against the FAI (ie that all southern born players could opt to play for NI), I wouldn’t be in the slightest bit concerned. And for much the same reasons as you are indicating to me.”
Allowing the IFA to pick southern born players so that both associations could select from the whole island was offered as a possible compromise last year. It was rejected by the IFA.
Paul
Why would it be anything other than a combination of both?
So Baird now doesn’t count because, um, you want to label the FAI sectarian. Perhaps their scouting has been great. No idea how they do it, though given they’ll have contacts all over the show (even just due to Irish players in clubs), it shouldn’t particularly hard to get a feel on the QT.
But anyway, if the FAI is doing a sectarian policy it is stupid, and the long run Protestants will be approached too. The fact that some might accept should worry you more.
Why would it be anything other than a combination of both?
“So Baird now doesn’t count because, um, you want to label the FAI sectarian.”
One Hun approached out of a dozen plus Northern Ireland born players seems to indicate selection is being made on grounds other than playing ability, yes.
If the defence is that they’re not approaching the “wrong sort” because they fear they’ll get the knock back, how does that differ from the Rangers defence in the 1970s “We don’t ask catholics to play for us because they don’t want to”.
” Perhaps their scouting has been great. No idea how they do it, though given they’ll have contacts all over the show (even just due to Irish players in clubs), it shouldn’t particularly hard to get a feel on the QT.”
1. The player’s birthplace is checked
2. The player’s “community background” (euphemism alert) is checked
3. The player’s quality is rated.
“But anyway, if the FAI is doing a sectarian policy it is stupid, and the long run Protestants will be approached too. The fact that some might accept should worry you more.”
Well if they do, then that will prove sectarianism isn’t a factor in the FAI’s selection policy. Might prove me wrong but in the bigger scheme of things I think it would be amore healthy approach don’t you?
Why, as a ROI supporter, would I NOT want the best players? If this is the case, it’ll break down.
And no, it doesn’t indicate anything. As I said, the FAI will approach but there’ll be others that will let it be known they want to go that route. That will skew the results. Further informal feelers will knock out some others. You are using a correlation in ways that are ill advised.
Where did I profess to have knowledge of the political makeup of the IFA?
Although in saying that, given that GSTQ is played at matches when the team that represents the IFA plays, one would certainly form an opinion on it.
Also, are there any orangemen(you know, that organisation that is anti-roman catholic and pro british?) occupying senior positions in the IFA?
And you say no one is forced to do anything – but were the IFA successful would not any six county born person wanting to play football at international level have to play for NI?
Again I’ll ask you, is this a fair reflection of the IFA’s position –
“all players born within Northern Ireland’s borders who do not have parents or grandparents born in the 26 counties are required to play for NI irrespective of the fact that they are automatically entitled to Irish citizenship and thus eligible to choose between playing for ROI or NI”
St Etienne
“Fair one – though the point still stands, FIFA is a creation of the home associations, not the other way round.”
I’d argue otherwise. Without FIFA and the other European countries, Association Football would be no where. The Home Nations tried to destroy FIFA after the 1st World War by refusing to play with other countries when sport could have been used to heal war wounds. If they had succeeded, there would have been no South American countries playing the sport. Ex-British colonies (India, Australia etc.) have hardly taken to the game, have they? Whereas Brazil, Argentina have lit up the tournament. A far greater contribution to the sport – yet Portugal, Spain, Italy have just one team representing their country.