Unionism and Israel: Holy Land is not a hotter version of Ulster…
As a liberal unionist, I found the local political reaction to the Israeli attack on the Gaza aid Flotilla depressingly predictable. While Sinn Fein and SDLP MLA’s condemned the raid, Unionist politicians, foremost among them Jonathan Bell, Jeffrey Donaldson and Sammy Wilson, stood foursquare in defence of Israel’s actions.
Even the mild-mannered Danny Kennedy could not help mentioning that in his opinion “a section of the unionist population have more than a sneaking regard for the manner in which the Israeli Government defends Israel and puts its security considerations above all others”.
Only the left-leaning Fred Cobain, who last year facilitated the launch of an Irish Congress of Trade Unions report on Israel and Palestine at Stormont last year where the ICTU called for a boycott of Israeli goods expressed any unionist criticism of the IDF’s actions, branding them, along with much of the rest of the world, as “piracy”, although he did not repeat these views in the Assembly chamber.
The roots of republican and nationalist support for the Palestinian cause are relatively well understood. For the republican movement in particular the Palestinian struggle was seen, alongside that of the ANC in South Africa and ETA in the Basque Country as providing the international context of a global left-wing liberation movement against colonialism and its legacy for the IRA’s armed campaign. Indeed, one famous Belfast mural showed the IRA and PLO as brothers-in-arms, clutching a rocket launcher, with the simple caption proclaiming “one struggle”.
The SDLP, whilst abhorring terrorism at home and abroad, nevertheless has also consistently expressed solidarity with the Palestinian people. In contrast little serious examination has been made of Unionism’s traditional support for the Israeli position, other than as simple knee-jerk opposition to the nationalist stance. Whilst this may not be entirely untrue, I believe there is a little more to it than that.
I believe the roots of Unionist solidarity with Israel lie in evangelical protestantism. As a people brought up in a bible-centred, old testament-heavy tradition, hearing at church, home, sunday school, and via the loyal orders the tales of Moses visiting the ten plagues upon Egypt and freeing the Hebrews from slavery, Joshua leading his people to the promised land and tearing down the walls of Jericho with a blast of trumpets, Gideon defeating the Midianites with a mere 300 men, of David slaying Goliath, and of how against the odds Jehovah would repeatedly deliver his chosen people from the Egyptians, Assyrians, Persians, and Philistines, it is little wonder that god-fearing unionists would naturally favour the modern-day state of Israel against the descendants of its ancient enemies.
Indeed in the case of Nelson McCausland that sense of solidarity goes even further as a British Israelite, believing the population of the British Isles to be largely descended from the ten lost tribes of Israel and that thus the peoples of the two lands are in fact kith and kin.
Whilst most unionists may not identity quite so closely with Israel as Mr McCausland, many unionists nevertheless do see parallels with Israel, perceiving both as divinely-ordained settler peoples (indeed not merely as a people, but “the people”) in a permanent struggle for survival against hostile natives bent on their destruction.
From this viewpoint, the respective struggles against the IRA, PLO and latterly Hamas were part of a common “war on terror” long before September 11th 2001, and indeed during the two conflicts Unionist and Israeli politicians often seemed to say much the same things, sharing the same discourse of democracy versus terrorism, whether in defence of “little israel” or “our wee country”, in the face of a seemingly unfriendly media which had made world opinion largely sympathetic to their enemies. The earlier quote from Danny Kennedy also reflects another of the main wellsprings for unionist admiration of Israel, namely its hardline security policy to fight fire with fire, paying back every act of Palestinian violence fifty or a hundred times over, in the process regularly committing Bloody Sunday-type incidents such as that on the Mavi Mamara with barely a shrug, much less regret.
As Sammy Wilson laments in the News Letter, “It is just a pity the government of the UK did not show the same determination against the IRA…” the implication being that if only the British government had followed the Israeli example and took the gloves off, a security solution could have been achieved and the IRA clearly defeated militarily, making the compromises of the peace process unnecessary.
The fact that despite over forty years of wielding the IDF sledgehammer the Palestinian nut has yet to crack, and Northern Ireland has enjoyed relative piece and stability for some years now while the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has become more bitter and entrenched than ever does not seem to dissuade them of this belief.
Finally, facile as it sounds, it does seem that in the tribal, zero-sum nature of traditional Northern Ireland politics from which we are only just slowly starting to emerge, that for many ordinary unionists, with little knowledge beyond TV bulletins of the Arab-Israeli conflict, the sight of Palestinian flags across the peaceline is a good enough reason to put up the Israeli flags on their lamp posts.
For Unionist and nationalist politicians debating the conflict serves as a proxy for own, adopting them almost as favourite football clubs, indulging the old arguments that relative peace and power-sharing have made more difficult to do between themselves, providing endless opportunities for “whataboutery” and dwelling on the suffering of their chosen side and the atrocities of their opponents whilst ignoring the grievances of the latter and the sins of the former.
Indeed, I am convinced that were the Assembly to debate, say, Western Sahara, Unionists would automatically support Morocco and Nationalists the Polisario, that is, if any MLA’s had ever heard of Western Sahara.
Whilst I can understand why most unionists support Israel, as a unionist it is a stance I do not share, primarily in remembrance of the victims of Zionist terrorism against the British authorities in Palestine prior to 1948. To provide just a few examples, in November 1944 while the British Army (including the Jewish Brigade) fought to free Europe from Nazi tyranny and thus end the Holocaust as soon as possible, the Dublin-born Walter Guinness, 1st Lord Moyne, was murdered alongside his driver by two members of Lehi (the Stern gang).
One of the leading members of Lehi was Yitzhak Shamir, who so admired and wished to emulate the IRA he even adopted the nom de guerre of Michael in tribute to Michael Collins, a fact both unionists and republicans seem to conveniently overlook. In 1947 the Irgun under the leadership of future Likud founder Menachem Begin, kidnapped and murdered Sergeants Mervyn Paice and Clifford Martin in reprisal for the execution of three Irgun terrorists. Even after independence Lehi assassinated UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte as he tried to end the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
And all this before mentioning the most infamous atrocity of all, the 1946 bombing of the King David Hotel by the Irgun in which 91 people (including 17 Jews) were murdered, the vast majority of whom were civilians. In fairness I should point out that mainstream Zionism in the form of the Jewish Agency under David Ben-Gurion condemmed all these atrocities, yet the attitude of the State of Israel to these groups and their actions since has been less than commendable.
Both the Irgun and Lehi were quickly integrated into the IDF after independence, and under Menachem Begin the state instituted official service ribbons for members of the terror groups. Both Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin long preceded Martin McGuinness and Gerry Kelly on the path from terrorism to government, becoming Prime Ministers of Israel. And as recently as 2006 the current Likud leader and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, so quick to condemn almost any act of Palestinian resistance as terrorism, attended a 60th anniversary celebration of the King David Hotel bombing, describing it, in words chillingly familiar to unionists, as “legitimate military action.”
Indeed the final insult came with the commerative plaque placed at the hotel, which implicitly blames the British authorities for the loss of life for not evacuating the hotel in time, the same hollow excuse used so often by the IRA down the years. For unionists to support a state which honours those who murdered members of the crown forces and whose hypocrite Prime Minister celebrates the massacre which inaugurated the post-war age of terror while defaming those on a mission of mercy, mown down for attempting to repel boarders by IDF commandos stooping to the level of Somali pirates, as “violent supporters of terrorism”, is a position without logic and consistency and one which I refuse to have any part of.
Whilst I have no love for Israel and great sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people, I have no illusions about Hamas or Fatah, whose past actions have been lesser in scale to Israel’s but no less in savagery. Seventeen years since the signing of the Oslo accords and ten since the last meaningful negotiations I believe a two state solution on mutually acceptable terms is no longer achievable or even desirable. I believe the only way for long-term peace to be achieved is for Israel and the occupied territories to come together as a new unitary bi-national state, a joint homeland of Israelis and Palestinians, the Union of Palestine and Israel (UPI) if you will. The UPI would have permanent equal representation of Israeli and Palestinians in parliament and government regardless of demographics, and a joint premiership modelled after our own OFMDFM.
The “separation barrier” would be removed, Israeli evictions of Palestinians from east Jerusalem would cease but Israeli west bank settlements allowed to remain. As one state there would be complete freedom of movement, Israelis could live in Gaza if they wished, Palestinians in Tel Aviv. Palestinians would have the right of return to the new state, but the Israeli law of return would continue to let Jews worldwide come and settle.
The new state would return the Golan Heights to Syria and the Shebba Farms to Lebanon, sign peace treaties with all its neighbours (with the Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese satisified, how could Iran refuse?) and give up its nuclear weapons. The Israelis gain peace and the retention of their homeland at little cost, the Palestinians equality and stop being refugees in their own country. Whilst such a plan may seem utopian, so did the idea of re-establishing a jewish state at the time of the first Zionist congress in 1897.
Comparisons between Northern Ireland and Palestine/Israel only go so far. The Holy Land is not a hotter version of Ulster, Israelis are not Prods in skullcaps and Palestinians are not Republicans in teatowels, but if there is one lesson I believe they can take from Northern Ireland it is that until Israelis and Palestinians learn to live together they will continue to die together.
Pinni,
“Clearly, Europe has lost Turkey to Islamic extremism, not Israel.”
So, just so I’m clear on this, Europe is the daddy, Israel is the mammy, and Turkey is the errant teen that’s just started shooting up?
So Europe is to blame for Turkey being a washed up junkie?
This is better than daytime TV.
And now a word from our sponsors.
Pinni, why is Gates blaming everyone but those who were internartionally reconised to be at fault, Isreal?
Perhaps if the US didn’t veto endless condemnation of Israel by the UN and supported sanctions against Israel (who we know what they have done as opposed to the supposition re Iran) Turkey may not be turning away from the West.
One of the main reasons Turkey was not we,comed in to the EU with open arms is its human fights record which is terrible.
RE Turkey turning to “Islamic extremism”, utter tosh. Yes, the party is Islamic but the US cannot use that term without convulsively adding the word extremism.
There is often a confusion between legitimate political contention over Israel/Palestine and full blooded anti Jewish racism, which often blocks real political discussion.
But I think you may have helped us define where that line lies.
You chose the word ‘import’. Given the recent history of the Jewish people (ie, ‘imported’ and ‘exported’ in cattle trucks across Europe by white, gentile supposedly civilised Europeans), it’s a blatant attempt to objectify and dehumanise.
And neither is it a genuinely political proposition. Rather it’s a nasty piece of fair gaming of Jews…
That’s right, ANW, ‘endless condemnation of Israel by the UN’. Even when Israel does everything by the book they are still condemned. Why are you not calling for the UN to have ‘endless’ condemnation for Sudan, NK, Iran, Venezuela, etc for their far more flagrant violations of HR.
No matter what Israel does, people like you will condemn her. That’s why Israel pays no attention to so-called peace activists who are only a façade for the merciless Hamas.
One of the main reasons Turkey was not we,comed in to the EU with open arms is its human fights record which is terrible.
Unarguably far worse than Israel’s!
Just in case this gets missed, here’s my response to ‘Oracle’ from back up the thread:
There is often a confusion between legitimate political contention over Israel/Palestine and full blooded anti Jewish racism, which often blocks real political discussion.
But I think you may have helped us define where that line lies.
You chose the word ‘import’ to describe the movement of people (a word normally reserved for goods or farm animals). Given the recent history of the Jewish people (ie, ‘imported’ and ‘exported’ in cattle trucks across Europe by white, gentile supposedly civilised Europeans), it’s a pretty blatant attempt to objectify and dehumanise.
And neither is it a genuinely political proposition. Rather it’s a nasty piece of fair gaming of Jews…
Obviously I meant human rights, not fights.
Saying that one place has worse rights than another does not excuse one that has less violations.
Not the slightest bit surprised Richard!
There is a protestant life after unionism, strange as it may seem. Most C of I down here, and I know more than a few are consciously put their Christian values into every day practice in the way they lived their lives and interacted with their communities.
In one Southern area most of the local C of I community supported as SF councillor on his merits as an elected representative while disagreeing with a lot of his politics. There was an agreed and voted on strategy for SF in that particular area, that was arbitrarily and undemocratically changed by another councillor and a few cronies, the longest serving member withdrew his nomination because of what happened and decided not to run for election while continuing to canvass for the second guy and Sinn Fein.
The first got a visit from a group of his C of I local community neighbors : on his record of service if he ran as an Independent they would support him and in fact spend two hours persuading him to run. As far as he was concerned this was some the ideals United Irishmen in action.
There was also the fact that if he did not and the word got out of what happened all that vote would ( as Tipp O’Neill said ‘all politics are local’ they are also seldom simple ! ) go to Fine Gael.
He resigned from SF ran in the same constituency against the Sinn Fein candidate and both were elected, as they could have been anyway if the decisions of the strategy committee had not been unilaterally set aside. He even asked for transfers for the SF candidate from his voters.
The C of I people in the community in most of Munster have the same touch of radicalism slumbering beneath the surface, their values are appreciated, little toleration for ‘Ah sure twill do’ or ‘ we’ll see what to-morrow brings attitude’
I can recall one occasion in East Cork where in a farming issues in a mixed community they were insisting that the Government be held to account for the latest in a broken string of promises while the local FF crowd were trying to defuse the situation by trying get agreement for a meeting with the Minister before any protest was undertaken.
In as much as Fianna Failure have a consistent policy this is it, buy a couple of days, that buys a couple of weeks, that buys a couple of months and then the first issue is overtaken by another and the same process begin all over again until all the space between elections are filled out!
One of the FF wide boys realizing that they were loosing control of the meeting played the history card and asked in mock exasperation why do Protestants all ways have to be like that ? …… ‘He got his reply because we live our name,we are Protest- ants! No more needed to be said. The protest vote was carried went public.
There is one simple issue that absolutely demonstrates absolutely the duplicity of the Israeli State towards the Rule Of Law and the International community. It also demonstrates the core of the problem of the Mid-East; that the International Community will not hold the Israeli State accountable to International Law.
That issue is Nuclear Power; Israel is a Nuclear Power and has Nuclear Weapons!
North Korea and Iran are campaigned against daily on the Nuclear Weapons issue; there is a string of UN sanctions against both countries pushed by the United States and it’s Nato Allies against both countries, many, ironically, at the urgings of Israel yet a blind eye is turned to this true rouge Nuclear State.
Why is Israel not subject to International Nuclear Inspections, Why is the State allowed remain outside the list of declared Nuclear Powers and why are there no International sanctions against the Israeli State for these breeches of International Law?
Once this issue is confronted and the questions answered, much becomes clear as to why little has changed for the better for those Peoples subordinate to Israel of why this situation is unlikely to change any time soon!
For those who are not current with this debate, please google, information and fact is not that difficult to come by!
Isn’t it marvelous? A post which enables some individuals to damn Unionists AND Jews.
This article is as published in the Jerusalem Post : I look forward to the usual Pro Israel Chorus attempting to brand this particular source ‘Anti-Semitic’.
Anyone with a serious interest in Ships, Weapons and Warfare will know also that Jane’s Information Group is one of the most authoritative sources for facts in this area in the world. Presidents, Rulers, Governments, the UN etc use it on a regular basis.

‘Israel is world’s 6th largest nuclear power’
By YAAKOV KATZ
04/11/2010 05:19
Jane’s Information Group says Jewish State has between 100 and 300 nuclear warheads.
Talkbacks (4)
Israel has between 100 and 300 nuclear warheads, making it the world’s sixth largest nuclear power, say defense analysts at the London-based Jane’s Information Group ahead of a nuclear summit to be hosted by US President Barack Obama in Washington this week.
According to the publishing company, the size of Israel’s nuclear arsenal puts it almost on par with Britain. Israel reportedly can fire nuclear warheads on an array of surface-to-surface Jericho missiles and on top of cruise missiles carried by its Dolphin-class submarines, giving it a second-strike capability.
The Jericho 2, says Jane’s, has a range of about 4,500 km. The Jericho 3, reportedly tested by Israel several years ago, is said to have a range of close to 8,000 km. Israel can also deploy nuclear missiles from the air.
The Jane’s analysis, as quoted by AFP, says Israel has also developed tactical nuclear weapons and probably keeps most of its arsenal in an unassembled mode, reserving the ability to obtain fully functional weapons within a matter of days.
There is one simple issue that absolutely demonstrates absolutely the duplicity of the Israeli State towards the Rule Of Law and the International community. It also demonstrates the core of the problem of the Mid-East; that the International Community will not hold the Israeli State accountable to International Law.
That issue is Nuclear Power; Israel is a Nuclear Power and has Nuclear Weapons!
North Korea and Iran are campaigned against daily on the Nuclear Weapons issue; there is a string of UN sanctions against both countries pushed by the United States and it’s Nato Allies against both countries, many, ironically, at the urgings of Israel yet a blind eye is turned to this true rouge Nuclear State.
Why is Israel not subject to International Nuclear Inspections, Why is the State allowed remain outside the list of declared Nuclear Powers and why are there no International sanctions against the Israeli State for these breeches of International Law?
Once this issue is confronted and the questions answered, much becomes clear as to why little has changed for the better for those Peoples subordinate to Israel of why this situation is unlikely to change any time soon!
For those who are not current with this debate, please google, information and fact is not that difficult to come by!

‘Israel is world’s 6th largest nuclear power’
By YAAKOV KATZ
04/11/2010 05:19
Jane’s Information Group says Jewish State has between 100 and 300 nuclear warheads.
Talkbacks (4)
Israel has between 100 and 300 nuclear warheads, making it the world’s sixth largest nuclear power, say defense analysts at the London-based Jane’s Information Group ahead of a nuclear summit to be hosted by US President Barack Obama in Washington this week.
According to the publishing company, the size of Israel’s nuclear arsenal puts it almost on par with Britain. Israel reportedly can fire nuclear warheads on an array of surface-to-surface Jericho missiles and on top of cruise missiles carried by its Dolphin-class submarines, giving it a second-strike capability.
The Jericho 2, says Jane’s, has a range of about 4,500 km. The Jericho 3, reportedly tested by Israel several years ago, is said to have a range of close to 8,000 km. Israel can also deploy nuclear missiles from the air.
The Jane’s analysis, as quoted by AFP, says Israel has also developed tactical nuclear weapons and probably keeps most of its arsenal in an unassembled mode, reserving the ability to obtain fully-functional weapons within a matter of days
Regrets for cut & paste cock-up……. bring back preview…. please !
N.Korea is a Stalinist hellhole governed by a hereditary communist (?) psychopathic leadership.
Iran is a brutal theocracy (remember last year, anyone?).
Israel is a democracy which would like to live in peace with its neighbours if said neighbours would only agree.
I agree Munsterview re. preview facility.
Bav O O
As they would put it down this neck of the woods, ‘ lovely hurling but we are playing football !’
Care to address the salient issue : if Israel is this great paragon of democracy why do the State not comply with International Law on Nuclear Power and Weapons.
Is there one International Law for the North Koreans and the Iranians; and yet another one for the Israeli State ?
A significant section of Israeli Citizenship do not think so, they do not want to ride roughshod over their neighbors, they do not wish the Palestinians or the people of Lebanon ill and if given the opportunity to do so they are willing to live in peace and security behind their 1967 borders.
I follow this dissenting peace movement : I take the views of the IDF officers and Soldiers who refuse to be their Nation’s Black & Tans very seriously indeed as I did the views of their British counterparts who had the moral principles and courage to come on Troops Out platforms to tell what ‘ Her Majesties Peace Keeping Forces’ really did in Nationalist areas in the Six Counties during the pre-ceasefire period of the Low Intensity War up there.
So address the question posed why is democratic Israel thumbing its State nose at the UN and International Law and happy to embrace the same International Outlaw status as the other tow so called rouge states ?
Ah come on Lads, this is gone beyond a laugh, I have a reputation to think of here!
Expressions of thanks from David Vance, agreement with Bav OO on an issue, what is next…… flowers from turgon !
I also have to keep restating this; Irrespective of what my feelings are about how the Israeli State came into existence, we are where we are, I believe Israel has the right to exist at peace behind secure borders, those pre 1967 war
In the early seventies I spend an afternoon in the company of a former Irgun fighter against the British or indeed anyone else that stood in his armed groups way. Back then he said exactly the same thing about what would happen if a generation of Palestinians grew up not knowing peace as John Ging of the UN did a few hours ago on television.
He also correctly identified and predicated the forces that produced Hamas !
The Political Abomination that is the current Israeli State was far, far indeed from that man’s vision or that of the founding fathers.
This is not just a Jews v Arabs issue : It is about one group of people who have superior arms and strength cruelly and viciously exercising power and control over a people they treat as sub human.
One do not have to go too far back in history to find where this happened : I walked the streets of Eastern European Ghettos where the same things happened to men, women and children as is happening in Gaza tonight.
80% of the population suffering from food depravation; 90% drinking water unsuitable for even washing in by Western standards , etc.
Get any decent book on the treatment of the Old, the Young, of Men, Women and children in the Warsaw Ghetto and any UN report on Gaza conditions and the parallels are there for all to see.
In decades to come when the Mid-East situation is resolved and the true details of the current Gaza conditions emerge, the world will look on the tv and film images of these times with the same revulsion and disbelief as we now look at the Ghetto Film Footage!
I’m sure we agree about lots of things Munsterview. Come on, its not that bad.
One of the most (maybe the most) influential and respected books in the history of mankind is ‘flimsy’, RS??
Indeed, as science and the documentary record of many empires have shown.
That’s absolutely hilarious!
Not as hilarious as thinking some dude parted the sea and another could walk on water.
What planet do you live on, anyway?
One which wasn’t created in 6 days.
I suggest you look up Jesus and Horus again. Jesus wasn’t the first guy born of a virgin mother, or rise from the dead etc etc etc !
I didn’t think he’d be that childish, but it seems Mr Vance has indeed thrown the toys outta the pram. I’m now barred form his blog. It appears he believes the accusation of anti-semitism is only something he should be able to wield !
http://atangledweb.squarespace.com/httpatangledwebsquarespace/anti-semitism-rampant.html#comments
Any reply from the Pro-Israeli lobby to the IDF dissident soldiers ?
Any reply from the Pro-Israeli lobby to the Nuclear Power issues raised ?
Their political bankrupt can now bee seen for what it is : remove the term ‘Anti-Semitism’ from the debate and there is little else left in their arsenal !
The Israeli position is untenable from any moral viewpoint or standard of International law!
munsterview ,
Question :
‘Is there one International Law for the North Koreans and the Iranians; and yet another one for the Israeli State ?’
Answer : Yes .
Question :
‘So address the question posed why is democratic Israel thumbing its State nose at the UN and International Law and happy to embrace the same International Outlaw status as the other two so called rogue states ?
Answer:
Because it can and Israel knows the USA will do nothing . It’s not in the USA’s inrterest to see the entire Middle East region go up in a thermonuclear armageddon . OIl is becoming increasingly scarce -no need to make it any scarcer .
RS, you’re better off not going there and increasing the hits on his site anyway. The man is both a child and a clown.
Found this on the Henrymarkow.com site; Henry an Austrian Jew now living in Canada he is a critic of the excesses on the Israeli State towards their neighbors and of International Zionists. He is always worth a visit.
Just thought that it would be a nice finishing to the debate here!
Ten Ways Zionists Would Spin BP Disaster
June 11, 2010
by Allan Dershevitz (not Alan Dershewitz pictured here)
Inspired by the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s adroit and deft handling of the Flotilla Massacre, transforming a seeming public relations fiasco into a defining moment of Zionist virtue, bravery, and heroism, I have compiled a ten point plan to help BP spin its way out of the Gulf of Mexico Oil Fiasco.
1. The oil rig actually had been commandeered by a radical Islamist group to use as a missile launch site to attack the US, so out of selfless benevolence BP was forced to blow it up. In fact, BP stands for Brave Patriots.
2. Oil is now available freely to all who wish to extract it for themselves from the ocean water. The blowout actually is a great act of charity on the part of BP to the peoples of the US and Mexico. (BP stands for Beloved People.)
3. The New World now boasts its own Black Sea to rival the one between Russia and Turkey. (BP stands for Black Pool.)
4. Turning the sea black is a sign of BP’s broader commitment to affirmative action. (BP stands for Black Power.)
5. BP workers were inspecting the rig, but the rig resisted and forced the workers to blow it up. (BP stands for Bold Police.)
6. The disaster has brought a much needed economic revival to impoverished Gulf states. The influx of reporters and cameramen, coast guard personnel, government officials, and lawyers, has been a great boon to the local economy. (BP stands for Break Poverty.)
7. The disaster has removed the media spotlight from other problem areas around the world, increasing American’s (false) sense of security. (BP stands for Believers’ Paradise.)
8. The disaster was an act of God provoked by America’s criticism of Israel regarding its suppression of Palestinian human rights. (BP stands for Bad Palestinians.)
9. The disaster resulted from America’s failure to bomb Iran, which lies next to the Persian Gulf and near the Black Sea, so God turned the “Gulf” “black” as a sign of His anger. (BP stands for Bomb Persia.)
10. America’s lip-service support of black-hearted Palestinian Islamic terror groups caused the Gulf of Mexico miraculously to turn black as a sign of God’s wrath. (BP stands for Bash Palestine.)
NEXT: Israeli Spin-Doctors Rescue Goldman Sachs
It should be pointed out that some of the bravest people in the world are anti-Zionist Jews who bear the full brunt of the incandescent rage of Zionism.
You really have to have brass balls to be an anti-Zionist Jew, and fair play to them. I don’t think I could ever be so brave.
On the contrary, every nation has among them those who deny the right to that nation to self-determination – and Jews, like the Irish, are no exception to that. Those not from that nation who deny the right of that nation to self-determination have a self-serving tendancy to praise those from that nation who also deny the right of that nation to self-determination, while the nation itself rightfully regards them as traitors to it.
There are also many Irishmen who do not believe that the Irish nation has the right to self-determination, and who wish it to surrender that right and rejoin the UK. PIRA spent many decades murdering them before it reversed its policy and agreed with the British state that the Irish nation in that part of the UK had no right to self-determination. Conor Cruise O’Brien and Kevin Myers et al are derided as “self-hating Irishmen” by that nation while being praised for their “courage and objectivity” by others.
Most folks can see through the little self-serving of priasing those who agree with you, and it leaves you looking like a dupe, frankly.
You miss the glaring point Alias. Some of those anti-zionist jews actually demonstrate that there is no Jewish nation, as in world Jewry does not fit the modern conception of a nation. What with Judaism being a religion with a undenaible history of conversion and proselytism. What does a Persian Jew share with a Flasha or with Christopher Hitchens or Woddy Allen apart from anything to with their religion?
The depths zionism has sunk to in order to justify what it has inflicted on the Palestinians means I must be part of the Basque nation
Alias,
“Most folks can see through the little self-serving of priasing those who agree with you, and it leaves you looking like a dupe, frankly.”
And how did you determine what “most folks” are thinking? Did you, like de Valera, look into your heart? Are those who label anti-Zionist Jews as “self haters” not dupes?
Alias.
From the outset it should be noted that as an Israeli Citizen you are not perhaps participating on this debate as objectively as others presenting their views. I have no problem with that but it do add another important aspect to your polemic.
First Judaism as a world religion : I know that inside that religion there are sects that because of their particular beliefs they think that Israel should not exist; this belief do not arise from politics but from a particular interpretation of the Bible.
Peoples of Jewish descent such as Lenin have always been to the fore in Anti-State underground Revolutionary Movements, the arguments as to why range from this rebellion being a product of their own historical experience of persecution right through to those who see this activity as part of a Grand Plan for a New World Order. Most secular Jews World wide who are on the hard left are anti-Zionist : I see this as in keeping with their political beliefs where others will reach for labels like ‘Self Hating Jews’
I am excluding these two groups from the discussion, numerically in terms of those who consider themselves Jews on a world wide basis, I doubt that they account for one-in-a-thousand. Some of the latter do have a significant National and International Profile, but as you well know that in this country we also have political groupings who in terms of the population on this Island, number less than 1% in actual electoral support : their cause is forlorn, yet they claim to speak for a far wider sentiment of their community than they have been mandated for!
It is unfortunately necessary for somebody in my situation to have to keep restating my position in relation to the State of Israel; irrespective of how it came into existence, and I have my own personal views on that, the State now exists and has a right to do so within secure International Borders.
The majority of the peoples disputing Israeli current expansionist and occupation policies agree that these should be the old borders of pre 1967 with some adjustments here and there.
The ‘Refusing to Serve’ Israeli Defense Force Officers and Other Ranks are not Anti-Israel : they have pledged to a defend the State in an all out war situation and continue to serve if required in the lands that are within the 1967 Border.
The Israeli Peace Movement and Dissenting citizens which include most of the Refusing to serve Officers and Other Ranks of the Defense Forces is a significant and growing Movement, most on the Right do indeed regard them as traitors but they in turn regard the Right also as traitors for having betrayed the ideals of the founders of the State, Jewish moral values and International Law.
More, they also consider the State’s actions towards the Palestinian as not alone wrong on all counts, but that it is also long term, by it’s policies, no less than reckless and unnecessary endangerment of the Israeli State itself.
Internationally Israeli State actions in recent decades have exhausted the goodwill that was there towards the State from most Nations, the European ones in particular, to a situation where they are now, at best, barely tolerated.
Invoking The dead Cruiser and the living Kevin Myers as examples of the Movements referred to in Israel is not a valid comparison : whatever political beliefs can be attributed to both named individuals, both were first and always iconoclastic contrarians, who as a Munster saying goes, would even dispute the color of crows! Connor ended up so politically and culturaly isolated that his second wife and family were and are his main defenders.
As to Kevin Myers : there is no need to rub salt in the wound; Kevin has a formidable intellect and more than a few abilities, yet at the autumn of what started off as a journalistic career of much promise, he is reduced to a marginal weekly piece read only for it’s quirkiness and included in the paper for color just as he is invited to contribute to current events for his capacity to provoke argument and stir things up as much as any real contributions that he can make to the debate on the issues concerned.
I do not think when the same Kevin looks in the mirror to shave each morning that a fulfilled man is looking back at him or that he considers that he has reached the peak of Journalistic excellence. The ideas of both people represent the views of few people other than themselves.
The Israel Peace movement on the other hand has somewhere around the same numbers regarding the population as a whole as in general either Fianna Failure, Fine Gael or the DUP and UUP combined has in relation to the population of this island of Ireland.
The Refusal To Serve and Peace Movement are not numerically insignificant or traitors; they personify the ideals of the best in the intentions of the State’s Founders and it’s best hope for a future of peace within secure borders for both Israel and it’s neighboring peoples.
In my considered opinion their views are essential for any understanding of the Middle-East conflict, the true state of the occupied territories or the hopes for a just and lasting peace.
It seems that this particular debate has more or less run it’s course. It did throw up some useful insights into the ‘Lost Tribe, British-Israel arguments’.
For Catholic / Nationalist / Republican readers in particular and the sane wing of Unionism, please take a look at the following site that was referred to me last night by a North American friend for comment. I should have been aware of this site it but I was not until it was drawn to my attention. If I had it at the start of this comment it may have opened up other dimensions to this particular debate.
Since the iconography described is quite common in Loyalist graphics, there is a legitimate question to ask as to the extent of these beliefs. How common are they inside the Orange Order; are they part of the ritual and initiation practices? It seems a section of Loyalism could be the lost tribe after all……… in the common accepted sense of the term!
http://jahtruth.net/uflag.htm.
It is indeed ironic, there is a Mid-East connection claimed from our earliest records that cannot be dismissed entirely as not having a factual basis. Bob Quinn’s work of some decades ago put forward some very persuasive arguments for common underling traits between Aran Island culture and that of North Africa.
It would be very surprising indeed if during the Moorish period in Spain that Atlantic sailors of that culture had not explored well North past Ireland. Gaelic Culture of this period still has not forgotten the Pre-Roman celtic culture of the continent, Irish Monks during the Re-Christianisation of Western Europe took up these old connections and established new ones.
There are authentic links and connections of early history, hidden history and pre History there that do merit investigation, for anybody interested in this whole area.
Dodrade
Thanks for the thought provoking article.
Some views on the similarities below:
Northern Protestants, in our recent past, have forgotten the democratic side of Protestantism & gone for a kind of Calvinism which seems to have forgotten the part of the bible which say ‘Love thy neighbour’ out of fear & the siege mentality.
Israel & Northern Protestantism shares a culture of fatalism, a liking for biblical desolation. Symbolism on OO banners is biblical, particularly the twelve tribes of Israel.
They have shared a favour for ‘gloves off ‘ security solutions.
They have benefited the most from the ‘temporary’ nature of the states.ie.low housing costs & business & military links with US & Europe.
They have shared a ‘frontiersman mentality’ i.e. God & a rifle.
Defensive, intolerant & uncritically loyal to traditions & institutions.
When Susan Mc Kay (journalist with integrity, as opposed to the morally lazy & drunken Myers) asked a leading Orange Order man why keep up provocative parades; the answer was ‘we have to show them who is master, that’s why’.
In short, they share supremacist, masculinist reasons.
They would also seem to share a terrible insecurity, because they have held onto power by dubious means and now fear they will be overthrown by the same means used against them. They are suffering from archaic fears, that they will be annihilated. Israelis have now founded a tradition which lacks doing things ‘above board’ and are impervious to argument.
To quote Billy Mitchell (UVF) ‘When you incite people to form armies and then walk away, you create a monster, and a monster does what it wants. ‘ Frankenstein could’ve been written about Israel or Ireland.
Just as the ‘Maggot Brigade’ threw maggots into Dunne’s Stores whilst the workers were protesting against the handling of S.African goods in the ‘80’s, so the ‘faithful’ continue to throw maggot arguments, for they have yet to come up with anything credible: still only ‘God gave it to us.’
Mad Mel Phillips employs the same tactic, when her arugument is defeated brick by brick, one is banned from her blogg.
The admission of defeat, by the likes of Vance & Phillips.
Congratulations.
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Whilst I can understand why most unionists support Israel, as a unionist it is a stance I do not share, primarily in remembrance of the victims of Zionist terrorism against the British authorities in Palestine prior to 1948.
Do you also hold grudges against the governments of Cyprus, Kenya, Iraq, the Palestinian Authority (262 British soldiers were killed by Palestinians in the Arab Revolt, whose leaders spent WWII in Berlin), Yemen and every other country where the end of British rule was preceded by violence? Take whatever stance you want but this is a ridiculously opportunistic argument; if Israel wasn’t on the front page of your paper every day you wouldn’t know or care that some of its prime ministers had fought against the British.
“I do not share, primarily in remembrance of the victims of Zionist terrorism against the British authorities in Palestine prior to 1948.”
“British authorities?”
You mean British occupation of Palestine? As someone who is British, you should know your own history.
The British Army ruled Palestine with an iron-fist. They promised the Jews a state, but they cut them off during the White Papers and abandoned the Zionist Jews.
What resulted was “terrorist” groups like Etzel, Lehi, etc.
They weren’t racist or destructive, they had no territorial ambitions towards Europe.
They wanted an Israeli state and after being diplomatic for 4 decades this seemed to be the only way to ensure it.
During this time Jews were banned from praying at the Western Wall. hundreds of Jews had been killed by angry Arabs while the British looked away. Some British soldiers even took part in the killing.
YOUR COUNTRY WAS NOT VICTIM TO “ZIONIST TERRORISM.” Israel is a victim to British imperialism. Most of its problems today is the result of historic British foreign policy.
Britain’s complicity in the holocaust by placing a naval blockade on Palestine, when every other nation barred Jews from asylum, including Britain, and throwing holocaust survivors in Nazi POW camps on Cyprus, makes any bitching and moaning from EuroTrolls about the evil Jews hard to take seriously.
Please learn your own history.